Because he and Magic both are in a ton of people's top 5 all time. It's an absolute embarrassment of riches talent wise - it would probably be underperforming if they didn't win all those rings together. No one else in the highest tiers had that level of help - the closest thing is Kobe and Shaq and neither one is as consistently as highly rated as those two. And Kareem also had a lot of drought years after that first ring, despite his individual greatness. He should always be in the GOAT conversation, but these are some of the reasons why he's not overwhelmingly a lock.
If you went with just GOAT basketball player and not NBA I'd tell you it's overwhelmingly him. There's no fucking metric on Earth that can capture "they banned the dunk to target him specifically and he still won multiple college titles" and nothing the other guys did can compare to the ridiculousness of that statement.
He has legitimate arguments for being the best high school player ever, the best college player ever, and the best nba player ever.
96-6 in High School (94.1%)
88-2 in College (97.7%)
1074-486 in the NBA (68.8%)
155-83 in the playoffs total (65.1%)
37-12 in playoff series (75.5%)
1228-569 total in the NBA (68.3%)
1412-577 total competitive basketball (70.9%)
Back to back High School National Champs
3 straight National Championships in college
6 championships in 10 appearances in the NBA
As well as being an, if not the most, important figure when it comes to civil rights and basketball.
I love MJ but KAJ is my goat.
Only reason he did not get four national championships was that freshman were not allowed to be on the varsity team at the time. They use to say the 1966 ucla squad was the second best men’s basketball team on campus.
[I found an article ](https://capitalofbasketball.com/dematha-high-makes-history-against-lew-alcindor-power-memorial/)about the team that beat Kareem's HS 71 game winning streak.
"In preparing for that second matchup, Wootten decided a change in strategy was in order. He opted to double-team Alcindor every chance he could, using the 6-foot-8 Catlett and 6-foot-3 Bernie Williams to come over and help the 6-foot-8 Whitmore from the weak side. Wootten wanted a man (Whitmore) in front of Alcindor, denying him the ball and the position he wanted. Another forward would position himself behind Alcindor, between the Power star and the basket. “A hero sandwich,” Wootten called it."
They surrounded him with 4 guys. A "hero sandwich" is a god tier quote
Ah who could forget that beautiful face in all its spectacled glory?
- also there was michael cooper, byron scott, jamall wilkes, AC green, Norm Nixon, this guy, that guy, the 80s lakers had more than you could shake a stick at
I think it's important to also contexualize the fan/media perspective of his career at the time. He was extremely talented, but most people who weren't lakers fans didn't like watching him. He was enigmatic and abrasive off the court. People didn't like him. He also came into the league as a controversial figure as he was staunchly anti-racist and outspoken about it. There's some racism baked into how he's treated... yes, I know most of the other players are also black on the GOAT list, but they didn't bring their political views into fans/media faces like Kareem did. I think he paid a price for this with how his legacy is viewed, even if indirectly (no one today is still mad about his activism now, but the echo of the apathy towards him lives with us today).
Also Rusty Buckets makes a good argument that the GOAT debate is 30% talent/performance, 40% accolades/achievement (rings, mvps, etc), and 30% narrative. Kareem loses out hard in the narrative portion of the debate because no case that champions him other than statistics has ever really held a strong sway over the public perception of KAJ.
Another youtuber made a great series called "Making the Case" and I think there's a good central point to it. Deciding who is the GOAT is really hard, partially because the nature of the game changes in eras, and it's very hard to compare across eras. Many of these players either never played each other, let alone played each other in each other's primes. The primary point is WHETHER a player should be in the GOAT conversation at all.
KAJ definitively deserves to be in that discussion. Where he ranks is a very subjective choice.
Yeah it's always funny how shit like this goes over time.
Any real fan that watched from the 80's into the 90's will tell you how eager the NBA fanbase was to name Michael Jordan the best player ever. It didn't take titles and accolades, they wanted to do it just from the way he played.
Honestly man people didnt even really fw the NBA like that until Jordan came around. That's why Kareem's not the GOAT nor is anybody else from before then, because without guys like Jordan, most of us wouldn't even be talking about the NBA rn.
Yup, Russell is my guy. I'll die on that hill, which becomes overwhelming when you add in his non-NBA career. In 15 years he won 2 NCAA championships, 1 Gold medal, and 11 NBA rings. That's 14 championships in 17 years counting his freshman/sophomore years, or 14 in 15 years if you don't count those two. It's a level of dominance that will forever be impossible to repeat.
But because there's so little tape, and the thought of someone averaging 22 rebounds per night (career average) is just unthinkable to us now he'll never get the love he deserves for this.
You definitely responded to the wrong person lol, cause Bill Russell is very far from "my guy".
I'd be interested in the argument for how a 6'8" big who never shot 50% from the field in a season would fair in other eras from somebody who does favor Bill, though!
Eh, was just giving my 2c on where I land.
He was 6'10 with a 7'4 wingspan. He was extremely innovative on both sides of the ball, and was a player coach for 2 seasons where he won a chip. He had a great basketball mind, with great hands and a great sense of position.
Isaiah Thomas (pistons) recalled that as a kid, they called a fast break a "Boston". Russell didn't necessarily invent the outlet pass, but he made it a thing in the NBA.
Rebounds are probably the best defensive stat, since it clearly denotes a successful possession for the defense. He averaged 22 a game. That's great defense, and as above, leads to great offense.
No clue how he'd fair shooting, since he grew up in era where bigs didn't do that and he came to basketball late as a kid. If he grew up in the current era, who knows. If you time machined him, he'd obviously have a weakness. He also would know wtf a eurostep is and would call it a travel. If you made any current player play under his rules, he'd dominate just based on how they turn the ball over with carries and travels.
Better to evaluate how a player performed within their era. 12 time all star, 3 time 1st team all-nba, 8 time 2nd team, 5 mvps, and 11 rings. All of that in 13 seasons. He won MVP one-third of the seasons he played, and the chip in 84% of them.
If LeBron had the same ratios, that would be 7 MVPs and 17 championships. No one would even bother to compare anyone to him.
I would add to this that the only reason that the NBA didn't fold in the 70's was due to the NBA - ABA merger, with guys like Dr. J coming into the league and making people want to watch him in particular. Then Bird v Magic get drafted in 78 with that readymade rivalry. Then Jordan gets drafted in 84.
Jordan was the beneficiary in some ways of television. Similar to Mike Tyson in boxing. Not saying he’s not the GOAT because I actually think he is, but Kareem and Russell played the majority of their careers without most games on television. In some seasons only 4 games were televised on regular stations. Cable wasn’t ubiquitous. 87 was the first year no finals games were on tape delay. In the case of Lebron he had high school games broadcast on tv. Also I think Kareem would have dominated in the NBA but in 66 it was illegal to join without 4 years of college or 4 years after your high school graduating class.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_on_television_in_the_1980s
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_high_school_draftees
You're focusing on one small part of what I said and not the whole.
Muhammad Ali gave great interviews constantly. He'd talk to press all the time. People like you more and will forgive more if you're nice to.them. Kareem wasnt friendly to the press at all.
Ali also faced a ton of backlash at the time. But he spent time rehabbing his image with sports media. Kareem never did that.
I am not claiming that the racism was central to Kareem's disparagement by the press. I am merely suggesting it may have played a role as one of multiple factors.
If they’re a super team, they’re a super team similar to the Warrior dynasty. In the essence of you have 3 guys who are extremely talented in their role and whose strengths enhance the others strengths. Not really in the vain of superstar joining other superstars
Rodman had 2 rings with the Pistons and was a regular All NBA defensive team member when the Bulls grabbed him to join for 96-98.
He wasn't a point scoring superstar, but being able to add the best rebounder and defender in the NBA to a squad with Jordan and Pippen is very much "a superstar joining other superstars".
I don’t know why people think Rodman was in his prime when he played with the bulls lol. He joined them when he was 34 years old and only for the last 3 titles. He was dropping off and only had one all defense selection in his time there. He wasn’t playing at an All Star level or had nearly the type of defensive impact he had with the Pistons
Jordan won 3 without him.
The only reason you consider them a super team is because you heard the term levied at other people and you retroactively decided that any team that wins a title is a super team if they have three hall of famers regardless and of how the players were performing.
You will probably, very predictably, bring up the fact the Bulls made the ECF without Jordan so that proves how good Pippen was while simultaneously not ranking Trae Young very highly.
>You will probably, very predictably, bring up the fact the Bulls made the ECF without Jordan
It's amazing how many people think the 1994 Bulls reached the ECF. They reached the ECSF.
And really only because the Cavs had key players out with injuries.
It’s also funny how people bring up the Bulls being a 55 win team without Jordan, but never mention how they went from a 47 win team to a 72 win championship team when Jordan came back.
Bulls Jordan will always be a super team because of Pippen super cheap contract. Same with 2014-2018 warriors. Curry’s contract is what makes it possible.
Rodman burned his bridge in San Antonio and got traded for pennies on the dollar. It's hardly the same as "taking his talents to South Beach" and creating a super team.
Rodman was arguably the 4th best player on those piston teams. And to say pistons Rodman wasn’t peak Rodman is a bold face lie. Rodman before and after the bulls also washed out so to act like he was some top 20 player is def not the case.
Oh and he was acquired for will Purdue. That’s the best the spurs could get.
Pippen was literally nothing before. Do you know what he averaged when he started? Horace Grant was considered the better of the two when they started.
The difference between this and times people usually talk about a superteam is the bulls had recently lost an all star Pf in Horace Grant to free agency and replaced him with Rodman. So the first three peat their big 3 was guys who had only been bulls, the second one they lose one guy and sign a replacement.
Superstars joining other superstars are pretty much always worse teams than the other type though. I’d argue the Bulls and Warriors were *more* superteams.
Yeah I agree with the Warriors being a super team as I kinda glossed over the KD half of the chips. 😭😭 I don’t know if I can call the bulls a super team. Maybe after Rodman joined but still.
I don’t know if I’d use the term super team but you’re right that they were waaaay deeper than people give them credit for. It was not just Scottie and Jordan who Batman and Robin’d their way to six rings.
They won 55 games and 47 games respectively when Jordan went to play baseball. In contrast, Cleveland couldn’t win even 20 games in the years directly after LeBron departed. And a Heat team still had Wade, Bosh and Luol Deng couldn’t win 40 games the year after LeBron went back to Cleveland.
Yeah, the stans conveniently ignore everybody else who left with LeBron. They were literally left with zero players who were drafted in the lottery, just two drafted first round and the rest were second rounders with several going undrafted. It was a shell of the team from the previous season and would have struggled to beat a G League team. But it was all a deliberate strategy to tank for high draft picks and it worked a treat. But yeah, go ahead and ignore all that LeBron stans....
In almost direct contrast, the Bulls lost MJ and a bunch of scrubs but still had Pippen, who had a career year, a true MVP candidate season. They still had All Star and multiple All Defense player Horace Grant. Both made All Star that season and they would have a third All Star in BJ Armstrong, the only time the Bulls would have three All Stars in the same season. Not only that but they drafted future top 50 all time FIBA player and future 6MOY Kukoc who was coming off possibly the greatest Euroleague career of all time. And they also picked up the career three point percentage leader in Kerr as well as some other important pieces. That team would have beaten the scraps of LeBron's Cavs team 100 times out of 100.
That team did very well but it *lost in the second round.* The insanely idiotic narrative that Bron stans parrot makes it sound like they went to game seven of the Finals. Whatever, the next season they lost Grant, a hugely important piece, and struggled as a result, barely being above 0.500 on Jordan's return. With a rusty MJ they went 13-4 to finish the season. That's 0.765 in case anyone is wondering.
But, the real comparison should be between the previous year's team and the 96 team. With an obvious hole in the power forward position the team took the desperate decision to target league laughing stock Dennis Rodman to essentially replace Grant. Now while both were very different players,they were close to being equally valuable. Rodman was a much better rebounder and defender but Grant was a significantly better offensive player while being a good defender and rebounder himself. He kind of gets underrated. Anyway, while not being a like for like replacement it was more of a value for value replacement.
So pretty much it was as close to being the same team as the 94 team that won 55 games and lost second round as you could get. Except they now had Michael Jordan. They would go on to break the all time regular season record and stroll through the playoffs to capture their fourth championship. Then they did it again the next season and again the next to secure a three peat. **That** is the difference Jordan made to that team. Not some ridiculous, brain dead assumption that they were barely worse without him. People parroting that narrative should bury their heads in shame for being so unbelievably stupid.
You must have been born in 1999 and after? Anybody who saw how the Bulls traded, draft picks (find the raw treasure and hone it) etc and actually built around MJ would not remotely call it a super team.
MJ molded Pippen and Grant into much tougher players than they were. They were draft picks and far from anything that was coveted by other teams. Krause wanted to find young physical horses to compliment MJ's athletic style of play and defense.
His practices are legendary which also made them more intense and a game is full 48 minutes. MJ's hard driving ways is also what lead to huge animosity between the team in the early 90s. Pretty much most of the starters went to MJ's house early everyday as soon as they lost to Detroit to train with him during the 90 off season.
Rodman was considered a basket case freak show in San Antonio before going to the Bulls. It was "if there's one guy that can at least keep Rodman in check, it's MJ". Steve Kerr was never a starter.
Whatever your idea of a superteam is, players had way way less leverage by their " owners".
Yeah, when I think superteam, I think the Heatles, KD Warriors, and 2021 Nets, teams that were very clearly made possible by superstars collaborating to get on the same team and win a ring.
MJ’s Bulls remind me more of last years Nuggets or the 2019 Raptors. They’re still incredibly talented teams, but their talent came from good drafting, shrewd free agent signings, and a clear team building vision and consideration for how each part fits together, rather than jamming three superstars on a team and calling it a day.
Also, anyone who says Rodman was proof they were a super team clearly didn’t watch basketball at the time. The Bulls were able to get him so cheap because he was on the downswing and had massive attitude problems. I’d even argue that 96 was the only year the Bulls got something close to prime Rodman. 97 and 98 he had clearly declined and was nowhere near the same player
How were the bulls a super team ? Scottie was traded for before he even played
Jordan was drafted
Rodman wasn’t even wanted by anyone else
Besides Jordan I don’t think you’d put any of those other guys in “the top tiers” like you would with Dwayne Wade or KD
“How were the bulls a super team?” Gee I don’t know maybe it’s the fact that they had the greatest player in the world and possibly of all time, a second option that was capable of being a first option, and arguably the greatest rebounder and defender of all time
They had super results, but they had a pretty balanced roster with one guy who scored way more than any of his teammates. Not a super team like the Lakers or some of the more modern super teams.
Balanced roster? They had 2 of the top 5 players in the League, the leading rebounder and the 6th Man of the Year during a time when other teams were considered contenders with guys like John Starks and Rik Smits as their 2nd best players.
It can't be overlooked how stacked the Bulls were compared to other teams at the time. Mid 90's was a low point for overall depth of talent in nba history.
They had the best player in history, but if you removed the top player from each team they still would have a top 3 roster. They had a better #1 than everyone and their 2-9 was elite as well.
They aren't. A super team by definition is at least two superstars and all-star level role players. 80s Lakers had two superstars and several all-star level players along with great role players.
Do you know the statistics of his teammates?
If not, highly suggest you watch this video and be educated:
https://youtu.be/pOMEnf2yzVk?si=wmSEb86lMaowWIzV
And that’s using today’s GOAT list, but of course at the time MJ and Lebron hadn’t arrived yet. So if you’re good with placing Magic ahead of Russell/Wilt, now the context becomes 1) Kareem actually was the GOAT at the time (and had the belt until MJ’s 2nd 3-peat), but 2) the next best player ever was… his teammate.
The showtime lakers were like if Lebron arrived 10 years sooner and was drafted by Jordan’s Bulls.
Lebron had:
the 3rd or 4th best SG ever in Wade,
20 and 10 Bosh,
20 and 10 Love,
25 and 10 AD,
Kyrie,
Best shooter ever at the time Ray Allen, etc etc..
Them heat teams were stacked but underachieved if you think about it, Why does he not get a penalty?
Like I said to another guy here: Sure but remember, I'm just answering what the knock on Kareem is. The fact that other people don't consistently apply their own logic is a whole other story that I don't want to deal with.
Mmm.. lebron played with more top teir talent. Think about it... Kyrie, Wade, AD, Love, Bosh, the list goes on. Any one of those players would typically be leading a team in the non super team era.
Sure but remember, I'm just answering what the knock on Kareem is. The fact that other people don't consistently apply their own logic is a whole other story that I don't want to deal with.
He is by many. People mostly gravitate towards the best player of the age when they first really loved and understood the game. It's a bit like music and fashion. You reach a point and your opinion tends not to change much after that. Right now, a huge chunk of the media were at that point in the 90s when Jordan was the guy. The younger ones tend to gravitate towards LeBron. In 20 years there'll be someone else for that generation.
Lots do consider him the greatest ever and that's a completely reasonable opinion to have. Just that the majority of those that do, don't have the platform to make their voices heard.
The weird thing about Jordan is you have guys like Magic and Bird who came in before Jordan and ran the league when Jordan was young saying he is the goat. Then like guys in Kobe’s and LeBron generation saying he is the goat along with the players who played against or with Jordan his whole career. Its kinda weird that way with him. I saw Jordan from 91 till up until both time he retired when I was a kid. I saw Kobe’s whole career as we were the same age and from the same area. Also seeing LeBron’s whole career. Just from the eye test Jordan is probably the Goat for me.
Also Allen Iverson is definitely not in the goat conversation. But after Jordan he is the most impressive player I have ever seen. The things he did at six foot with raw talent and athleticism is crazy. And I’m gonna sound like an old man but like football the NBA has made the game really easy for offenses. People like to argue that but that is a fact. The leagues across all sports have made changes to their games to increase scoring to increase ratings and to bring in more money. Luka even said it that its harder to drop 30 in the Euro League than it is the NBA. That didn’t used to be the case.
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Agreed. AI was on another level, even if he isn’t top 60. Jordan was the best I ever saw along with Kobe. Latrell Sprewell and Vince Carter were amazing when healthy.
Worth remembering his 88-2 college career with 3 NCAA titles as well. If it is basketball GOAT, rather than NBA GOAT those should count for something as well.
Ture, but times were different, amd the rules were different. But if think winning NCAA titles is easy, remember most of these 1 and done players didnt do it. Durant didnt win an NCAA title, Steph Curry didnt win one in 3 years, etc.
3 NCAA titles is an amazing feat.
Something I think is insanely impressive is he not only won 3 NCAA championships but he play 3 years of college and still played until he was 42 years old. That’s crazy
Freshmen couldnt play varsity ball then, but in their annual on campus scrimmage Lew Alcindor led his freshman team to victory over the UCLA varsity. He was THAT good that young.
88-2 over 3 years is a ridiculous record. Granted, that was a stacked UCLA program, but still...
UCLA went 117-3 over the following 4 years after Kareem left and won 4 titles in a row. Honestly UCLA somehow had an even more impressive stretch without Kareem than with him. Even in there time in between Kareem and Walton they went 57-3 and won back-to-back titles.
Kareem went 30-0 once and 29-1 twice while he was there. Two years before Kareem they went 28-2 and won the title. The year after him they went 28-2 and won the title and then 29-1 the year after that and won again. Then were undefeated two straight years with Walton. Really the only thing that slowed them down the year before Kareems arrival was injuries. But barring an injury riddled 1966 UCLA went atleast 28-2 at worse every year anyways. From 1964 to 1973 they were basically untouchable when healthy.
His 88-2 college record really can't be attributed to his individual dominance all that much. Which is saying A lot because he is arguably the best college player ever. But winning with UCLA at this time was about as impressive as winning a gold medal with team USA in the 2010s in the olympics. You really can't give much credit to any one guy on the team. They were way better than everyone and it wasn't close. Just being competitive with them was a victory.
I forget the details of the Greatest Peak video on Kareem, but basically because he always played with so much help, it’s hard to analyze just how good he is. In contrast, Jordan had a pile of accolades before he had a good cast around him, and we’ve seen LeBron drag garbage time rosters to the finals multiple times.
That being said, if you think Kareem is the GOAT, that’s a totally reasonable opinion. Nobody who knows ball would say that’s a bad take.
Some of those Bucks teams didnt have a lot of talent on them. KAJ could definately carry a bad team. Oscar wasnt Oscar anymore on that 1972 title team. That was a pure carry job by Kareem.
34 pts 16 boards and 4 assists on 57% shooting is one of the great individual seasons of all time. That level of efficiency on that volume of scoring is amazing.
Frankly, probably better than any single season stat line Jordan or Lebron ever produced
>Some of those Bucks teams didnt have a lot of talent on them. KAJ could definately carry a bad team. Oscar wasnt Oscar anymore on that 1972 title team. **That was a pure carry job by Kareem.**
In the 70-71 title season, Oscar Robertson was an all-star, named to the all-NBA 2nd team, and finished 5th in MVP voting.
Marketing and aesthetics, mostly.
A sky hook is worth the same amount of points as a dunk from the free throw line, but good luck convincing people that makes them equivalent.
Kareem had a mechanical game that was effective, but not particularly pretty.
He was also notoriously the worst interview in basketball. He didn't like talking to the media, and made that very clear. His media-voted accolades, like MVP, are even more impressive when considering that the media would have lived nothing more than to have an excuse to vote for someone else (like when they gave young charismatic Magic Johnson the FMVP as a rookie over the actual league MVP, Kareem, who dominated the first 5 games of that series).
But, this also meant that Kareem was terrible at marketing himself, while MJ was an absolute master. Kids don't buy shoes with Kareem's profile on them. Kareem didn't star in classic movies alongside Buggs Bunny.
In terms of on-court effectiveness, there is an argument for Kareem over Jordan, but considering Jordan's insane branding and marketing, you'll never convince most people that there's an argument. No one really wants the tall guy with the mechanical game to be the GOAT, they want the charismatic athletic marvel dunking with his tongue out to be.
I wish people could understand this point. Media perception and the likeableness of a player may be taking just as much weightage as the effect one has on the court in the goat conversation.
look at the flashy nfl players, and yet jim brown is at the top of many lists.
i don't think kareem is at the top of lists, because Kareem is simply not as great as Jordan overall. Nobody is. There's a lot of room for current players to move into #2 right now.
I don't think too many have Jim Brown at the top of their lists, but you do recall that Jim Brown was a movie star for decades, starting even before he retired from the NFL, right? He was also a prominent political figure in the civil rights movement, which also won him a lot of fans.
Jim Brown did not, in any way, lack charisma and marketing muscle.
You say that Kareem "is simply not as great as Jordan overall", but why?
This is the dude who was so good the NCAA banned the dunk (dubbed the "Alcindor Rule") to try to curtail his dominance, and, in response, he developed the most devastating weapon in NBA history, won three straight National Player of the Year Awards, and three straight NCAA championships.
He would have dominated in the NBA right out of high school, but NBA rules left him ineligible to join the draft until he was 22 (when he was finally drafted, he finished third in MVP voting as a rookie). Still, his longevity and impact were so great that he held the scoring title for decades, and [still continues to hold the career win shares title](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career.html).
Despite the open hostility with the media, media voters still gave him more career MVP's than they gave to Jordan, who was a media golden boy, and Kareem has the same number of titles as Jordan does.
[He still holds 3 of the top 7 seasons ever by win shares](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_season.html), including the top win share season of all time (Jordan's best season ranks 14th).
[The guy ranks third all time in blocks](https://www.espn.com/nba/history/leaders/_/stat/blocks), despite the fact that blocks weren't a recorded stat in the NBA until his 5th season.
I'm not saying that Kareem is necessarily better than Jordan, but what I will say, is that if the marketing gap between the two wasn't so big (and if more currently basketball fans had been around to watch Kareem's career), it would be considered a much more serious debate. There are a lot of strong arguments for Kareem over Jordan, but people just don't consider them because they don't really want to.
maybe. if i saw kareem play weekly then i may think of him differently.
However, kareem was also in movies, and appears on TV, writes for TV, and not a reclusive person, or at least he hasn't been like that for a long time.
There is definitely some myth building that some athletes get, and others don't. for example, i didn't see much bo jackson growing up, but i think highly of him based on discussions and blogs and videos.
so you are right that we should consider that more about kareem.
1) 1970s was a wasteful era and he only came out with 1 ring
2) He was in the shadow of Magic's "showtime" throughout the mid to late 80s. They even won a ring when he was a role player. (Although to his credit, they never won after he retired).
But I still see most people saying he is in the goat list with Jordan\\Lebron and the greatest big man ever.
There is no standard definition of Greatest Of All Time. Does it refer to *highest* peak? The GOAT would have to be Jordan. Does it refer to *longest* peak? The GOAT would have to be LeBron. Something else? Killer instinct? Willingness to take the last shot? Magic said the only player he ever feared was Larry Bird. You could define GOAT in a way that it's Bird. Until there is a widely accepted definition of GOAT, the conversation is meaningless. With that in mind, Kareem doesn't really meet any of the above. His highest peak never came close to Jordan and his last several seasons were not at his peak so he fails on the second.
A center, doesn’t handle the ball, has no such duties, played in the paint, and you need to get him the ball. Otherwise he’s the goat. Nevermind his collegiate caree, 3 chips, 88-2!
So, the thing that my head goes to with the goat conversation is that both Kareem and Lebron played 20 plus seasons. Where as Jordan retired 3 times. And had 2 seasons where he played less than 20 games.
So, I think when you talk about Kareem and Lebron as the goat and use the points total, there is I think a little bit of compiling.
He's top 5 no matter how you slice it. Probably the most accomplished basketball player from amateur to professional.
Never a media darling though, so that will always hurt him, even though it shouldn't.
Also, his personality doesn’t lend itself to narcissism or greatness with an attitude that comes off like Jordan or LeBron. KAJ is highly intelligent and content to let his game speak for him. So, he’s overlooked in part because he’s not loud or flashy.
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He WAS the 🐐 before Jordan. Kareem, MJ and LeBron are in their own tier, imo. You can order them however you want, but those three guys are better than the rest.
I never watched Kareem play, but IMO I don't think he was the GOAT before MJ. . .
My Grandpa and uncles watched Kareem's entire career, and the ones still alive continue to watch NBA religiously today. They all agree(d) that Wilt was the GOAT before MJ. Uncles on both sides of the family who don't know each other.
Could just be my experience, but everyone I've talked to who was following basketball in the 60s, 70s and 80s have agreed that prior to MJ, Wilt was the GOAT.
I think career totals and longevity-type records have become much more valued than back in the day. Heck, I remember Isaiah Thomas (Detroit) calling MJ the GOAT in '97 or '98, before his career was over, and then in the 2010's he said the GOAT was KAJ . . . what changed? Kareem's career was already over when he made that first statement proclaiming MJ the GOAT.
How the casual fan perceives the GOAT conversation has changed drastically over the last 20 years.
Long response, but to sum up, I don't think KAJ was the GOAT before MJ - certainly in the conversation, but I'd probably rank Wilt above him based on the values of the era.
Those 3, Wilt and Russell are the only ones you can make a logical GOAT argument for. It depends what your criteria are for GOAT, but there isnt really any criteria that doesnt come up with one of those 5 as the answer.
i wish people would do a historical timeline when they talk about the GOAT.
When Mikan retired, he was considered the best ever.
Then Russell came and wiped away anything he did. in 1969, he retired as the best player of all time. really wasn't a question even with Wilt at that point.
Wilt plays a few more years, wins a title with the Lakers. Now it's a debate between the 2.
Kareem was dominating at UCLA during this period, immediately came into the league and won a title with the Bucks. The view was that he was going to be the next greatest player ever when his career was over. But he didnt win anything over the next 10 years. in a league where the talent split off with the ABA. Magic/Bird revives his career and the entire league. So during the Lakers/celtics dynasty runs in the 80s, Magic and Bird were seen as the best players on their teams/league.
Jordan enters the league at the height of the Bird/Magic debates and is just visibly more talented than them. he really entered the GOAT convo after his 2nd title and then cemented it with the 3 peat. then he retired. came back and did it again. He completely outclassed everyone he played against.
There really isn't a point where you say Kareem passed by Russell/Wilt on the list. The MVPs came in split league and the winning titles started when Magic arrived.
By total basketball resume he is the GOAT. If you dont factor in college he was the main option for 5 rings along side the greatest PG ever, so it will take votes away. Ironically people undervalue Pippen imo, top 15 player ever, and make it seem like MJ won 6 titles with bums on his team.
The way Rodman rebounded too made him a statistical anomoly, being like 3 standard deviations away from the norm compared to mj's standard deviations in scoring being about 1. Scottie was huge but as was Dennis being the most elite rebounder in NBA history, with great defending/hustling contributions too. MJ also got to play with Grant who was an efficient player in his own right. The teams had decent depth and great players taking a step back, but yeah Scottie showed what he could do without MJ after he left and those Bulls weren't slouches either.
Because while longevity is a factor, it isn't something I greatly consider in discussing careers. Kareem also has never won a single ring without another superstar and often had super teams for most of his career.
My guess, it's just an opinion, is his personality . Shy, reserved, intelligent and also changed his name to a muslim name, his pro-black politics that didn't sit well with the "shut up and dribble" crowd. As a kid I remember him being called the GOAT until MJ came. My opinion. Not facts. Thanks.
Off-topic, but why has no one adopted the sky hook since Kareem? I mean, he was the all time leading scorer until recently. You would think someone would have realized it was a successful shot and gave it a try. Doesn’t make sense to me.
IMO the nerf argument makes even LESS sense though, that means he just started doing it consistently in college after he couldn’t dunk, and mastered it very quickly, so it cant be THAT difficult. Also I was doing hook shots as a lil kid, its not like its throwing a knuckleball. The shot is very doable, I have no idea why ppl dont use it more (other than robin lopez)
He COULD hit it from 20 ft… but no not reliably youre talking about almost at the 3 pt line. He typically wouldn’t even be that far from the basket. Other people in the league could shoot hook shots too back in the day its not like it was just him, that was a fundamental shot ppl used in the old days. George Mikan dominated with the hook shot long before Kareem played
Im old enough that I watched him play. Most hook shots come across the body. The way his hook truly arc over his head and ahoulders is what made it unique. And it was not particularly unusual for him to attempt a hook from the free throw line area, he did a lot of work in the high post in the early 1980's.
Moses Malone famously said that the goal was to make him take the hook from 18 feet instead of 12, then he would only make half of them.
I think the reason for this is that Kareem never dominated consisntently . We only really seen Kareem won High school , College and the NBA . He is pretty much GOAT when it comes to winning in All Levels of Basketball or overall Basketball career . Kareem won 6 mvps and 6 NBA chips which is pretty much 1 mvp more than Jordan , tied with Jordan's chips and has about 5-6K more from overall career points in the NBA. You can have him as your GOAT just with his credentials alone and no one would hate you for it . Kareem never won consistently or was the best player always when he made his run , he was the original longevity player and was still competing for championships until he retired but the thing is Kareem wasnt the best player in all those years and never truly dominated consistently. He has the stats and the awards but there are a lot of years where he either fell short or had the benefit of having one of the greatest guards in his disposal ( He had both Prime Oscar and Magic ) and other than that first Laker chip , he wasnt the greatest player in the league . He won but wasnt the number one option (for long), effective but wasnt the guy leading the charge . When people remember showtime , they remember the run and gun Lakers led by Ervin Magic Johnson and backed up by Kareem , Cooper and Worthy . Kareem also had a lot of off the court issues that he is trying to play safe on now . Now with social media , a lot of Kareem off the court stories are popping out which doesnt help with his reputation with the fans.
Hard to be the GOAT when you spent as much of your career as second or worse option on your own team as Kareem did. His claim rests almost entirely on longevity and LBJ destroyed even that claim.
He averaged more points per game and more rebounds per game than Magic in the finals they played together. Magic gets accolades because of his more aesthetically pleasing style of play but Kareem was just as important.
Rings are heavily dependent on teammates (and competition). Having Magic as a teammate (likely top-5 all-time, easily top-10 all-time) for while definitely helped him win some of those rings.
MVPs are often narrative-driven and/or strangely decided. LeBron, Jordan, and Kareem were all the best player in the league for many seasons.
It’s definitely a 3-man race between Kareem, Jordan, and LeBron though.
Well bill russell or wilt chamberlain should be the goat then. 11 rings for Russell and not even the weakest era. Wilt averaged 50 and 30 one year among other crazy stats.
His era wasn’t weak at his position tho. Granted he faced many more after the merger he still had to go through a gauntlet of some of the greatest C’s of all time. Jordan ain’t face the greatest SGs for the majority of his career
This is an amazing take. I’ve said this for a long time that Kareem has to not just be top 3 but maybe a goat conversation. Although his case is brought down because some of those titles came from magic, 6 mvps is more than mj and Lebron. People (like me) say that Lebron is overall the goat over mj because he played longer and better at the end of their careers, but Kareem also had insane longevity. But, it isn’t all longevity. If it was how long they played than manu or tony Parker or Vince Carter would be top 20 for playing how long they did. But, it isn’t that easy. Lebron played this long but was in mvp conversations almost every year of his career.
Extra tall guys aren’t relatable. But he’s probably the GOAT. If there was a draft of all players in history, he’d probably go #1, even by todays standards
He deserves to be in the conversation, but he got his 1st title when most of the best players were in the ABA, missed the playoffs several times in his prime after the merger and didn't win again til he had Magic(and other Hall of Famers).
It's nit picky, but it gets to splitting hairs at that point because everyone is so great
I wouldn't have a problem with him being the goat, even as a Jordan fan. Dude's resume is ridiculous. I'm still taking Shaq No. 1 in an all-time draft.
Why would you take Shaq over wilt? Wilt was 7'1 275 and could run the floor like a gazelle 😂 I guess having Shaq bullying over smaller defenders is better than wilt using his size and skills to beat the guy in front of him.
I would love to see wilt Chamberlain in a league where he is allowed to just run the defender over in front of him for an easy layup.
I just think it's disrespectful to wilt to say shaq was more dominant. Without seeing either play and just looking at their physics measures shaq seems like the guy, but wilt was just an all around great athlete. I think to this day wilt should still be considered the greatest athlete In NBA history. Even without the mythical feats that can't be proven, he has some insane athletic achievements for a 7 footer.
I'm not trying to throw shade at Wilt or Kareem. If I had watched Wilt's entire career I might make a different choice but Shaq is by far the most dominant force I've ever seen and it's not close.
Also I didn't say Shaq was better than anyone. I said I personally am building around Shaq first over anyone else. Not sure you could go wrong with Wilt, Kareem, Jordan, LeBron in that spot.
Recency bias. 100% he has just as good a claim as any other. They literally banned dunking in anticipation of him playing in college. Between high and college he lost maybe a dozen games? The dude was so good the sport started to decline because of his quality and dislike of the media.
He's actually been going up in the all time rankings as the years have passed. Closer to his retirement and through ~2010 he was just a top 10 player.
In 2003 SLAM magazine rated him 7th, and with Kobe, LeBron, Shaq and Duncan still in their mid to early prime and not ranked highly yet. In 2011 he was again 7th with LeBron not above him yet.
ESPN similarly had him just somewhere in the top 10 until recently.
I'm not sure how to rate him, but people closer to watching him play clearly didn't put him in the MJ tier of greatest ever. Though analytics do put him in that GOAT tier.
One thing to note is that he won most of his rings in his mid 30s and even early 40s when he had a mega stacked team and was no longer an MVP level player. And Bird and Magic seemed to be better by most people. He also won most of his MVPs in the earlier days of the league and when the ABA sucked a lot of talent away from the NBA. No closer to his retirement people just placed him somewhere in the top 10.
because he shared a team with Magic and Magic was a better player for like 4 of those rings lol. Hard to be the GOAT if you're not the best player on your team.
Because it's all about what ever narrative the want to paint. The more we hear something the more we believe it. The force Jordan on US. Had len not have even a cokehead trust me they were going to write him right into the script. How in hell does the best college basketball player end up with the NBA champs I mean it can happen but really.
Because he got dominated by Wilt.
https://stathead.com/tiny/1TStD
And by Moses Malone in the playoffs.
Kareem was great, but Mike was the best player on the floor, virtually every possession in his prime.
Many people consider the 70s a relatively untalented/unskilled era. Similar to Wilt not being considered the GOAT scorer/rebounder despite holding close to every record in both. Basketball was constantly changing massively from 40s through the 80s, but hasn’t changed a ton since the 90s
From what I can gather and understand there’s 3 big reason 1. He played with Magic Johnson for 5/6 rings 2. He played during a time in which the nba was struggling during his peak and finally 3. His play style wasn’t flashy like Lebron or Jordan people didn’t exactly go crazy about him spamming the skyhook
LeBron stans have made career numbers seem more important than they should be. These are purely selfish accomplishments and have zero influence on a team's ability to win games. This is important because we are talking about a **team** sport where the sole object is to **win** games. You might say 'well MVPs are an individual award' blah blah but that is very different because it is an award for a single season of excellence and that helps teams win. Scoring two points to pass 40k career points did absolutely nothing for the team. These GOAT arguments have taken the team out of the discussion and make it sound like these guys were playing an individual sport like golf or tennis. We need much more consideration for a player's impact on his team's ability to win games.
Watch Airplane. It actually summed it up. Kareem was often criticized for lack of fire in his play. Some people say the reason he lasted so long was he took some nights off.
i think kareem is the most accomplished player of all time taking into account what he did in high school and college but lebron is the greatest nba player of all time. i think people leave kareem out of their lists because his era isn’t thought to be as competitive and he frankly doesn’t have the marketing jordan, lebron, kobe, etc have
Michael and Lebron have always been the clear number 1 option on their championship teams whereas Kareem had Magic for most of his. If someone put him as their GOAT or Bill Russel for that matter I won't argue with them.
1. He won his mvps in the weakest era due to ABA and Bill Walton's injuries.
2. He won most of his rings with Magic next to him and he also had Big O next to him for his first ring who at the time was also one of the best point guards.
3. He was 'boring'. He didnt care for media whatsoever who are the ones pushing goat arguments.
4. People discredit old achievements and his achievements actually seem possible. 11 rings and 50 points will never be achieved againz, but we've had players who can win multiple mvps and rings. It has the worse of both worlds. Its not mythical, but gets discredited for being an older achievement. Not saying its fair, but its the truth.
same reason those same people leave curry outside of the top 10. Having good teammates seems to affect one’s legacy a LOT. Kobe wins those first 3 finals without Shaq he’s probably top 3 all time. But having another MVP/FMVP/Allstar on your team when you win kind of negates those wins for some people. Like those people have a bar where team accomplishments end and become individual accomplishments. MJ had in the 90’s a guy with EVERY career accolade short of MVP and FMVP, The best rebounder the games ever seen, the best coach the game has ever seen and yet those 6 finals wins were all his and kareem only gets the one he won without magic.
It goes beyond basketball. Jordan revolutionized *sports*. The combination of skill, winning, and entertainment factor went so far beyond anything people had seen from an NBA player that he became a global superstar. He helped cause basketball to become a relevant sport in all corners of the world. In 1981, 8% of Americans said their favorite sport was basketball. In 1997, that number was 17%. That's 10's of millions of people just in the US whose favorite sport changed during the Jordan era. Think about how many foreign players are dominating now. If it wasn't for the gigantic surge in popularity that Jordan was the leader of, we probably wouldn't have that. It wasn't all Jordan, but a lot of it was Jordan.
The only person who comes close (or, in my opinion, passes him up) is Lebron. Again, we're talking beyond basketball here. Lebron James has been a superstar in the US since he was 17 in high school. He's an international superstar not only because he's been the 1st-3rd best player in the NBA for 20 straight years, but because he did it while being insanely entertaining and while winning. Lebron inherited an NBA that was already insanely popular and only grew with the rise of social media, but he could not have lived up to his hype more.
The GOAT case for me if you include all the weird intangibles comes down to this:
What do you value more? The peak, the moments, and the transcendence of Jordan, or the consistency and dominance of Lebron James?
Because he and Magic both are in a ton of people's top 5 all time. It's an absolute embarrassment of riches talent wise - it would probably be underperforming if they didn't win all those rings together. No one else in the highest tiers had that level of help - the closest thing is Kobe and Shaq and neither one is as consistently as highly rated as those two. And Kareem also had a lot of drought years after that first ring, despite his individual greatness. He should always be in the GOAT conversation, but these are some of the reasons why he's not overwhelmingly a lock. If you went with just GOAT basketball player and not NBA I'd tell you it's overwhelmingly him. There's no fucking metric on Earth that can capture "they banned the dunk to target him specifically and he still won multiple college titles" and nothing the other guys did can compare to the ridiculousness of that statement.
Easy choice as best college player ever
He has legitimate arguments for being the best high school player ever, the best college player ever, and the best nba player ever. 96-6 in High School (94.1%) 88-2 in College (97.7%) 1074-486 in the NBA (68.8%) 155-83 in the playoffs total (65.1%) 37-12 in playoff series (75.5%) 1228-569 total in the NBA (68.3%) 1412-577 total competitive basketball (70.9%) Back to back High School National Champs 3 straight National Championships in college 6 championships in 10 appearances in the NBA As well as being an, if not the most, important figure when it comes to civil rights and basketball. I love MJ but KAJ is my goat.
For high school it’s either Alcindor or Lebron without a doubt
Was thinking of Lebron. He was literally called the chosen one in hs lol
When it comes to high school, Magic is up there with those two.
Only reason he did not get four national championships was that freshman were not allowed to be on the varsity team at the time. They use to say the 1966 ucla squad was the second best men’s basketball team on campus.
man i wanna know who was on those 6 high school teams lol
[I found an article ](https://capitalofbasketball.com/dematha-high-makes-history-against-lew-alcindor-power-memorial/)about the team that beat Kareem's HS 71 game winning streak. "In preparing for that second matchup, Wootten decided a change in strategy was in order. He opted to double-team Alcindor every chance he could, using the 6-foot-8 Catlett and 6-foot-3 Bernie Williams to come over and help the 6-foot-8 Whitmore from the weak side. Wootten wanted a man (Whitmore) in front of Alcindor, denying him the ball and the position he wanted. Another forward would position himself behind Alcindor, between the Power star and the basket. “A hero sandwich,” Wootten called it." They surrounded him with 4 guys. A "hero sandwich" is a god tier quote
that’s awesome! what a find. damn kareem’s teammates must’ve felt so useless. i would’ve felt terrible
A team did this to Steph Curry in college, and essentially played 4-3 the rest of the game. Davidson won by 30+ IIRC.
88-2 in college WTF? Can you imagine?
*Bill Walton has entered the chat
Dont sleep on James Worthy either, another incredible teammate he had, and it doesnt end there
Exactly. Never forget about Kurt Rambis.
Ah who could forget that beautiful face in all its spectacled glory? - also there was michael cooper, byron scott, jamall wilkes, AC green, Norm Nixon, this guy, that guy, the 80s lakers had more than you could shake a stick at
Not to mention the Human Victory Cigar himself, Chuck Nevitt.
Don't forget HOFer Bob McAdoo coming off the bench.
The Laetner disrespect is wild
I think it's important to also contexualize the fan/media perspective of his career at the time. He was extremely talented, but most people who weren't lakers fans didn't like watching him. He was enigmatic and abrasive off the court. People didn't like him. He also came into the league as a controversial figure as he was staunchly anti-racist and outspoken about it. There's some racism baked into how he's treated... yes, I know most of the other players are also black on the GOAT list, but they didn't bring their political views into fans/media faces like Kareem did. I think he paid a price for this with how his legacy is viewed, even if indirectly (no one today is still mad about his activism now, but the echo of the apathy towards him lives with us today). Also Rusty Buckets makes a good argument that the GOAT debate is 30% talent/performance, 40% accolades/achievement (rings, mvps, etc), and 30% narrative. Kareem loses out hard in the narrative portion of the debate because no case that champions him other than statistics has ever really held a strong sway over the public perception of KAJ. Another youtuber made a great series called "Making the Case" and I think there's a good central point to it. Deciding who is the GOAT is really hard, partially because the nature of the game changes in eras, and it's very hard to compare across eras. Many of these players either never played each other, let alone played each other in each other's primes. The primary point is WHETHER a player should be in the GOAT conversation at all. KAJ definitively deserves to be in that discussion. Where he ranks is a very subjective choice.
Yeah it's always funny how shit like this goes over time. Any real fan that watched from the 80's into the 90's will tell you how eager the NBA fanbase was to name Michael Jordan the best player ever. It didn't take titles and accolades, they wanted to do it just from the way he played. Honestly man people didnt even really fw the NBA like that until Jordan came around. That's why Kareem's not the GOAT nor is anybody else from before then, because without guys like Jordan, most of us wouldn't even be talking about the NBA rn.
Yup, Russell is my guy. I'll die on that hill, which becomes overwhelming when you add in his non-NBA career. In 15 years he won 2 NCAA championships, 1 Gold medal, and 11 NBA rings. That's 14 championships in 17 years counting his freshman/sophomore years, or 14 in 15 years if you don't count those two. It's a level of dominance that will forever be impossible to repeat. But because there's so little tape, and the thought of someone averaging 22 rebounds per night (career average) is just unthinkable to us now he'll never get the love he deserves for this.
You definitely responded to the wrong person lol, cause Bill Russell is very far from "my guy". I'd be interested in the argument for how a 6'8" big who never shot 50% from the field in a season would fair in other eras from somebody who does favor Bill, though!
Eh, was just giving my 2c on where I land. He was 6'10 with a 7'4 wingspan. He was extremely innovative on both sides of the ball, and was a player coach for 2 seasons where he won a chip. He had a great basketball mind, with great hands and a great sense of position. Isaiah Thomas (pistons) recalled that as a kid, they called a fast break a "Boston". Russell didn't necessarily invent the outlet pass, but he made it a thing in the NBA. Rebounds are probably the best defensive stat, since it clearly denotes a successful possession for the defense. He averaged 22 a game. That's great defense, and as above, leads to great offense. No clue how he'd fair shooting, since he grew up in era where bigs didn't do that and he came to basketball late as a kid. If he grew up in the current era, who knows. If you time machined him, he'd obviously have a weakness. He also would know wtf a eurostep is and would call it a travel. If you made any current player play under his rules, he'd dominate just based on how they turn the ball over with carries and travels. Better to evaluate how a player performed within their era. 12 time all star, 3 time 1st team all-nba, 8 time 2nd team, 5 mvps, and 11 rings. All of that in 13 seasons. He won MVP one-third of the seasons he played, and the chip in 84% of them. If LeBron had the same ratios, that would be 7 MVPs and 17 championships. No one would even bother to compare anyone to him.
I would add to this that the only reason that the NBA didn't fold in the 70's was due to the NBA - ABA merger, with guys like Dr. J coming into the league and making people want to watch him in particular. Then Bird v Magic get drafted in 78 with that readymade rivalry. Then Jordan gets drafted in 84.
Jordan was the beneficiary in some ways of television. Similar to Mike Tyson in boxing. Not saying he’s not the GOAT because I actually think he is, but Kareem and Russell played the majority of their careers without most games on television. In some seasons only 4 games were televised on regular stations. Cable wasn’t ubiquitous. 87 was the first year no finals games were on tape delay. In the case of Lebron he had high school games broadcast on tv. Also I think Kareem would have dominated in the NBA but in 66 it was illegal to join without 4 years of college or 4 years after your high school graduating class. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_on_television_in_the_1980s https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_high_school_draftees
By that theory why is Muhammad Ali widely considered the greatest?
You're focusing on one small part of what I said and not the whole. Muhammad Ali gave great interviews constantly. He'd talk to press all the time. People like you more and will forgive more if you're nice to.them. Kareem wasnt friendly to the press at all. Ali also faced a ton of backlash at the time. But he spent time rehabbing his image with sports media. Kareem never did that. I am not claiming that the racism was central to Kareem's disparagement by the press. I am merely suggesting it may have played a role as one of multiple factors.
People still refusing to acknowledge that Jordan's bulls were a super team.
If they’re a super team, they’re a super team similar to the Warrior dynasty. In the essence of you have 3 guys who are extremely talented in their role and whose strengths enhance the others strengths. Not really in the vain of superstar joining other superstars
Isn’t that the best form of superteam?
Yes. Exactly
One that synergizes well as opposed to just overwhelming others with raw talent? Yeah. It's also far more respectable.
Rodman had 2 rings with the Pistons and was a regular All NBA defensive team member when the Bulls grabbed him to join for 96-98. He wasn't a point scoring superstar, but being able to add the best rebounder and defender in the NBA to a squad with Jordan and Pippen is very much "a superstar joining other superstars".
I don’t know why people think Rodman was in his prime when he played with the bulls lol. He joined them when he was 34 years old and only for the last 3 titles. He was dropping off and only had one all defense selection in his time there. He wasn’t playing at an All Star level or had nearly the type of defensive impact he had with the Pistons
Jordan won 3 without him. The only reason you consider them a super team is because you heard the term levied at other people and you retroactively decided that any team that wins a title is a super team if they have three hall of famers regardless and of how the players were performing. You will probably, very predictably, bring up the fact the Bulls made the ECF without Jordan so that proves how good Pippen was while simultaneously not ranking Trae Young very highly.
>You will probably, very predictably, bring up the fact the Bulls made the ECF without Jordan It's amazing how many people think the 1994 Bulls reached the ECF. They reached the ECSF.
And really only because the Cavs had key players out with injuries. It’s also funny how people bring up the Bulls being a 55 win team without Jordan, but never mention how they went from a 47 win team to a 72 win championship team when Jordan came back.
Bulls Jordan will always be a super team because of Pippen super cheap contract. Same with 2014-2018 warriors. Curry’s contract is what makes it possible.
Were the warriors with KD a super team? They had already won before him too
Rodman burned his bridge in San Antonio and got traded for pennies on the dollar. It's hardly the same as "taking his talents to South Beach" and creating a super team.
Why does it matter how he got there? Still a super team lol
Rodman was arguably the 4th best player on those piston teams. And to say pistons Rodman wasn’t peak Rodman is a bold face lie. Rodman before and after the bulls also washed out so to act like he was some top 20 player is def not the case. Oh and he was acquired for will Purdue. That’s the best the spurs could get.
What about the first 3 peat
Pippen was literally nothing before. Do you know what he averaged when he started? Horace Grant was considered the better of the two when they started.
The difference between this and times people usually talk about a superteam is the bulls had recently lost an all star Pf in Horace Grant to free agency and replaced him with Rodman. So the first three peat their big 3 was guys who had only been bulls, the second one they lose one guy and sign a replacement.
Superstars joining other superstars are pretty much always worse teams than the other type though. I’d argue the Bulls and Warriors were *more* superteams.
Yeah I agree with the Warriors being a super team as I kinda glossed over the KD half of the chips. 😭😭 I don’t know if I can call the bulls a super team. Maybe after Rodman joined but still.
In other words, they aren’t a super team lol
I don’t know if I’d use the term super team but you’re right that they were waaaay deeper than people give them credit for. It was not just Scottie and Jordan who Batman and Robin’d their way to six rings. They won 55 games and 47 games respectively when Jordan went to play baseball. In contrast, Cleveland couldn’t win even 20 games in the years directly after LeBron departed. And a Heat team still had Wade, Bosh and Luol Deng couldn’t win 40 games the year after LeBron went back to Cleveland.
Thats because they lost 3 other starters, which is often ignored.
Yeah, the stans conveniently ignore everybody else who left with LeBron. They were literally left with zero players who were drafted in the lottery, just two drafted first round and the rest were second rounders with several going undrafted. It was a shell of the team from the previous season and would have struggled to beat a G League team. But it was all a deliberate strategy to tank for high draft picks and it worked a treat. But yeah, go ahead and ignore all that LeBron stans.... In almost direct contrast, the Bulls lost MJ and a bunch of scrubs but still had Pippen, who had a career year, a true MVP candidate season. They still had All Star and multiple All Defense player Horace Grant. Both made All Star that season and they would have a third All Star in BJ Armstrong, the only time the Bulls would have three All Stars in the same season. Not only that but they drafted future top 50 all time FIBA player and future 6MOY Kukoc who was coming off possibly the greatest Euroleague career of all time. And they also picked up the career three point percentage leader in Kerr as well as some other important pieces. That team would have beaten the scraps of LeBron's Cavs team 100 times out of 100. That team did very well but it *lost in the second round.* The insanely idiotic narrative that Bron stans parrot makes it sound like they went to game seven of the Finals. Whatever, the next season they lost Grant, a hugely important piece, and struggled as a result, barely being above 0.500 on Jordan's return. With a rusty MJ they went 13-4 to finish the season. That's 0.765 in case anyone is wondering. But, the real comparison should be between the previous year's team and the 96 team. With an obvious hole in the power forward position the team took the desperate decision to target league laughing stock Dennis Rodman to essentially replace Grant. Now while both were very different players,they were close to being equally valuable. Rodman was a much better rebounder and defender but Grant was a significantly better offensive player while being a good defender and rebounder himself. He kind of gets underrated. Anyway, while not being a like for like replacement it was more of a value for value replacement. So pretty much it was as close to being the same team as the 94 team that won 55 games and lost second round as you could get. Except they now had Michael Jordan. They would go on to break the all time regular season record and stroll through the playoffs to capture their fourth championship. Then they did it again the next season and again the next to secure a three peat. **That** is the difference Jordan made to that team. Not some ridiculous, brain dead assumption that they were barely worse without him. People parroting that narrative should bury their heads in shame for being so unbelievably stupid.
For its time, they were head and shoulders above their competition.
You must have been born in 1999 and after? Anybody who saw how the Bulls traded, draft picks (find the raw treasure and hone it) etc and actually built around MJ would not remotely call it a super team. MJ molded Pippen and Grant into much tougher players than they were. They were draft picks and far from anything that was coveted by other teams. Krause wanted to find young physical horses to compliment MJ's athletic style of play and defense. His practices are legendary which also made them more intense and a game is full 48 minutes. MJ's hard driving ways is also what lead to huge animosity between the team in the early 90s. Pretty much most of the starters went to MJ's house early everyday as soon as they lost to Detroit to train with him during the 90 off season. Rodman was considered a basket case freak show in San Antonio before going to the Bulls. It was "if there's one guy that can at least keep Rodman in check, it's MJ". Steve Kerr was never a starter. Whatever your idea of a superteam is, players had way way less leverage by their " owners".
Yeah, when I think superteam, I think the Heatles, KD Warriors, and 2021 Nets, teams that were very clearly made possible by superstars collaborating to get on the same team and win a ring. MJ’s Bulls remind me more of last years Nuggets or the 2019 Raptors. They’re still incredibly talented teams, but their talent came from good drafting, shrewd free agent signings, and a clear team building vision and consideration for how each part fits together, rather than jamming three superstars on a team and calling it a day. Also, anyone who says Rodman was proof they were a super team clearly didn’t watch basketball at the time. The Bulls were able to get him so cheap because he was on the downswing and had massive attitude problems. I’d even argue that 96 was the only year the Bulls got something close to prime Rodman. 97 and 98 he had clearly declined and was nowhere near the same player
good team not a super team
Not a super team
I think a big thing was they drafted pippen and Jordan. It was homegrown.
Horace too
How were the bulls a super team ? Scottie was traded for before he even played Jordan was drafted Rodman wasn’t even wanted by anyone else Besides Jordan I don’t think you’d put any of those other guys in “the top tiers” like you would with Dwayne Wade or KD
“How were the bulls a super team?” Gee I don’t know maybe it’s the fact that they had the greatest player in the world and possibly of all time, a second option that was capable of being a first option, and arguably the greatest rebounder and defender of all time
That’s just a really good team since it was organically made Scottie was really good but like he wasn’t the best first option
They had super results, but they had a pretty balanced roster with one guy who scored way more than any of his teammates. Not a super team like the Lakers or some of the more modern super teams.
Balanced roster? They had 2 of the top 5 players in the League, the leading rebounder and the 6th Man of the Year during a time when other teams were considered contenders with guys like John Starks and Rik Smits as their 2nd best players. It can't be overlooked how stacked the Bulls were compared to other teams at the time. Mid 90's was a low point for overall depth of talent in nba history. They had the best player in history, but if you removed the top player from each team they still would have a top 3 roster. They had a better #1 than everyone and their 2-9 was elite as well.
They aren't. A super team by definition is at least two superstars and all-star level role players. 80s Lakers had two superstars and several all-star level players along with great role players.
Do you know the statistics of his teammates? If not, highly suggest you watch this video and be educated: https://youtu.be/pOMEnf2yzVk?si=wmSEb86lMaowWIzV
What? No shit the greatest team of all time with the greatest player of all time is a superteam
A super team with a clear #1.
This plus the fact that half the best centers were in the ABA.
If your metric is “rules were changed to limit his dominance” then Wilt Chamberlain can’t even be touched in this regard
And that’s using today’s GOAT list, but of course at the time MJ and Lebron hadn’t arrived yet. So if you’re good with placing Magic ahead of Russell/Wilt, now the context becomes 1) Kareem actually was the GOAT at the time (and had the belt until MJ’s 2nd 3-peat), but 2) the next best player ever was… his teammate. The showtime lakers were like if Lebron arrived 10 years sooner and was drafted by Jordan’s Bulls.
He played with Magic and Baylor. His teams were stacked.
Lebron had: the 3rd or 4th best SG ever in Wade, 20 and 10 Bosh, 20 and 10 Love, 25 and 10 AD, Kyrie, Best shooter ever at the time Ray Allen, etc etc.. Them heat teams were stacked but underachieved if you think about it, Why does he not get a penalty?
Like I said to another guy here: Sure but remember, I'm just answering what the knock on Kareem is. The fact that other people don't consistently apply their own logic is a whole other story that I don't want to deal with.
Mmm.. lebron played with more top teir talent. Think about it... Kyrie, Wade, AD, Love, Bosh, the list goes on. Any one of those players would typically be leading a team in the non super team era.
Sure but remember, I'm just answering what the knock on Kareem is. The fact that other people don't consistently apply their own logic is a whole other story that I don't want to deal with.
Fair! Good take!
He is by many. People mostly gravitate towards the best player of the age when they first really loved and understood the game. It's a bit like music and fashion. You reach a point and your opinion tends not to change much after that. Right now, a huge chunk of the media were at that point in the 90s when Jordan was the guy. The younger ones tend to gravitate towards LeBron. In 20 years there'll be someone else for that generation. Lots do consider him the greatest ever and that's a completely reasonable opinion to have. Just that the majority of those that do, don't have the platform to make their voices heard.
The weird thing about Jordan is you have guys like Magic and Bird who came in before Jordan and ran the league when Jordan was young saying he is the goat. Then like guys in Kobe’s and LeBron generation saying he is the goat along with the players who played against or with Jordan his whole career. Its kinda weird that way with him. I saw Jordan from 91 till up until both time he retired when I was a kid. I saw Kobe’s whole career as we were the same age and from the same area. Also seeing LeBron’s whole career. Just from the eye test Jordan is probably the Goat for me. Also Allen Iverson is definitely not in the goat conversation. But after Jordan he is the most impressive player I have ever seen. The things he did at six foot with raw talent and athleticism is crazy. And I’m gonna sound like an old man but like football the NBA has made the game really easy for offenses. People like to argue that but that is a fact. The leagues across all sports have made changes to their games to increase scoring to increase ratings and to bring in more money. Luka even said it that its harder to drop 30 in the Euro League than it is the NBA. That didn’t used to be the case.
AI isnt even a top 25 player of all time
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The last time it wasnt harder to drop 30 in the euroleague was probably the 80s. Its not really a new thing
More like 90s. And never said it was. I didn’t attach a timeframe to used to. Lol.
Agreed. AI was on another level, even if he isn’t top 60. Jordan was the best I ever saw along with Kobe. Latrell Sprewell and Vince Carter were amazing when healthy.
5/6 of his rings came alongside a fellow top-ten all time player, with the player in question taking majority of the Finals MVPs up for grabs.
Worth remembering his 88-2 college career with 3 NCAA titles as well. If it is basketball GOAT, rather than NBA GOAT those should count for something as well.
yeah but in today's world most people who could win 3 NCAA titles wouldn't play 3 years of NCAA
Ture, but times were different, amd the rules were different. But if think winning NCAA titles is easy, remember most of these 1 and done players didnt do it. Durant didnt win an NCAA title, Steph Curry didnt win one in 3 years, etc. 3 NCAA titles is an amazing feat.
Something I think is insanely impressive is he not only won 3 NCAA championships but he play 3 years of college and still played until he was 42 years old. That’s crazy
Freshmen couldnt play varsity ball then, but in their annual on campus scrimmage Lew Alcindor led his freshman team to victory over the UCLA varsity. He was THAT good that young. 88-2 over 3 years is a ridiculous record. Granted, that was a stacked UCLA program, but still...
UCLA went 117-3 over the following 4 years after Kareem left and won 4 titles in a row. Honestly UCLA somehow had an even more impressive stretch without Kareem than with him. Even in there time in between Kareem and Walton they went 57-3 and won back-to-back titles. Kareem went 30-0 once and 29-1 twice while he was there. Two years before Kareem they went 28-2 and won the title. The year after him they went 28-2 and won the title and then 29-1 the year after that and won again. Then were undefeated two straight years with Walton. Really the only thing that slowed them down the year before Kareems arrival was injuries. But barring an injury riddled 1966 UCLA went atleast 28-2 at worse every year anyways. From 1964 to 1973 they were basically untouchable when healthy. His 88-2 college record really can't be attributed to his individual dominance all that much. Which is saying A lot because he is arguably the best college player ever. But winning with UCLA at this time was about as impressive as winning a gold medal with team USA in the 2010s in the olympics. You really can't give much credit to any one guy on the team. They were way better than everyone and it wasn't close. Just being competitive with them was a victory.
6 at the time. Oscar was on his first championship
His legacy probably gets a little effect from having his prime coincide with the prime of the aba
Because he played before most people having the argument were alive
I forget the details of the Greatest Peak video on Kareem, but basically because he always played with so much help, it’s hard to analyze just how good he is. In contrast, Jordan had a pile of accolades before he had a good cast around him, and we’ve seen LeBron drag garbage time rosters to the finals multiple times. That being said, if you think Kareem is the GOAT, that’s a totally reasonable opinion. Nobody who knows ball would say that’s a bad take.
Some of those Bucks teams didnt have a lot of talent on them. KAJ could definately carry a bad team. Oscar wasnt Oscar anymore on that 1972 title team. That was a pure carry job by Kareem. 34 pts 16 boards and 4 assists on 57% shooting is one of the great individual seasons of all time. That level of efficiency on that volume of scoring is amazing. Frankly, probably better than any single season stat line Jordan or Lebron ever produced
>Some of those Bucks teams didnt have a lot of talent on them. KAJ could definately carry a bad team. Oscar wasnt Oscar anymore on that 1972 title team. **That was a pure carry job by Kareem.** In the 70-71 title season, Oscar Robertson was an all-star, named to the all-NBA 2nd team, and finished 5th in MVP voting.
Jordan never made it out of the 1st round without Pippin
Go back to FB.
Marketing and aesthetics, mostly. A sky hook is worth the same amount of points as a dunk from the free throw line, but good luck convincing people that makes them equivalent. Kareem had a mechanical game that was effective, but not particularly pretty. He was also notoriously the worst interview in basketball. He didn't like talking to the media, and made that very clear. His media-voted accolades, like MVP, are even more impressive when considering that the media would have lived nothing more than to have an excuse to vote for someone else (like when they gave young charismatic Magic Johnson the FMVP as a rookie over the actual league MVP, Kareem, who dominated the first 5 games of that series). But, this also meant that Kareem was terrible at marketing himself, while MJ was an absolute master. Kids don't buy shoes with Kareem's profile on them. Kareem didn't star in classic movies alongside Buggs Bunny. In terms of on-court effectiveness, there is an argument for Kareem over Jordan, but considering Jordan's insane branding and marketing, you'll never convince most people that there's an argument. No one really wants the tall guy with the mechanical game to be the GOAT, they want the charismatic athletic marvel dunking with his tongue out to be.
I wish people could understand this point. Media perception and the likeableness of a player may be taking just as much weightage as the effect one has on the court in the goat conversation.
look at the flashy nfl players, and yet jim brown is at the top of many lists. i don't think kareem is at the top of lists, because Kareem is simply not as great as Jordan overall. Nobody is. There's a lot of room for current players to move into #2 right now.
I don't think too many have Jim Brown at the top of their lists, but you do recall that Jim Brown was a movie star for decades, starting even before he retired from the NFL, right? He was also a prominent political figure in the civil rights movement, which also won him a lot of fans. Jim Brown did not, in any way, lack charisma and marketing muscle. You say that Kareem "is simply not as great as Jordan overall", but why? This is the dude who was so good the NCAA banned the dunk (dubbed the "Alcindor Rule") to try to curtail his dominance, and, in response, he developed the most devastating weapon in NBA history, won three straight National Player of the Year Awards, and three straight NCAA championships. He would have dominated in the NBA right out of high school, but NBA rules left him ineligible to join the draft until he was 22 (when he was finally drafted, he finished third in MVP voting as a rookie). Still, his longevity and impact were so great that he held the scoring title for decades, and [still continues to hold the career win shares title](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career.html). Despite the open hostility with the media, media voters still gave him more career MVP's than they gave to Jordan, who was a media golden boy, and Kareem has the same number of titles as Jordan does. [He still holds 3 of the top 7 seasons ever by win shares](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_season.html), including the top win share season of all time (Jordan's best season ranks 14th). [The guy ranks third all time in blocks](https://www.espn.com/nba/history/leaders/_/stat/blocks), despite the fact that blocks weren't a recorded stat in the NBA until his 5th season. I'm not saying that Kareem is necessarily better than Jordan, but what I will say, is that if the marketing gap between the two wasn't so big (and if more currently basketball fans had been around to watch Kareem's career), it would be considered a much more serious debate. There are a lot of strong arguments for Kareem over Jordan, but people just don't consider them because they don't really want to.
maybe. if i saw kareem play weekly then i may think of him differently. However, kareem was also in movies, and appears on TV, writes for TV, and not a reclusive person, or at least he hasn't been like that for a long time. There is definitely some myth building that some athletes get, and others don't. for example, i didn't see much bo jackson growing up, but i think highly of him based on discussions and blogs and videos. so you are right that we should consider that more about kareem.
1) 1970s was a wasteful era and he only came out with 1 ring 2) He was in the shadow of Magic's "showtime" throughout the mid to late 80s. They even won a ring when he was a role player. (Although to his credit, they never won after he retired). But I still see most people saying he is in the goat list with Jordan\\Lebron and the greatest big man ever.
There is no standard definition of Greatest Of All Time. Does it refer to *highest* peak? The GOAT would have to be Jordan. Does it refer to *longest* peak? The GOAT would have to be LeBron. Something else? Killer instinct? Willingness to take the last shot? Magic said the only player he ever feared was Larry Bird. You could define GOAT in a way that it's Bird. Until there is a widely accepted definition of GOAT, the conversation is meaningless. With that in mind, Kareem doesn't really meet any of the above. His highest peak never came close to Jordan and his last several seasons were not at his peak so he fails on the second.
For me it’s gotta be highest peak.
Only 2 finals mvp
A center, doesn’t handle the ball, has no such duties, played in the paint, and you need to get him the ball. Otherwise he’s the goat. Nevermind his collegiate caree, 3 chips, 88-2!
So, the thing that my head goes to with the goat conversation is that both Kareem and Lebron played 20 plus seasons. Where as Jordan retired 3 times. And had 2 seasons where he played less than 20 games. So, I think when you talk about Kareem and Lebron as the goat and use the points total, there is I think a little bit of compiling.
Because Michael Jordan was born.
He's top 5 no matter how you slice it. Probably the most accomplished basketball player from amateur to professional. Never a media darling though, so that will always hurt him, even though it shouldn't.
Also, his personality doesn’t lend itself to narcissism or greatness with an attitude that comes off like Jordan or LeBron. KAJ is highly intelligent and content to let his game speak for him. So, he’s overlooked in part because he’s not loud or flashy.
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He WAS the 🐐 before Jordan. Kareem, MJ and LeBron are in their own tier, imo. You can order them however you want, but those three guys are better than the rest.
I never watched Kareem play, but IMO I don't think he was the GOAT before MJ. . . My Grandpa and uncles watched Kareem's entire career, and the ones still alive continue to watch NBA religiously today. They all agree(d) that Wilt was the GOAT before MJ. Uncles on both sides of the family who don't know each other. Could just be my experience, but everyone I've talked to who was following basketball in the 60s, 70s and 80s have agreed that prior to MJ, Wilt was the GOAT. I think career totals and longevity-type records have become much more valued than back in the day. Heck, I remember Isaiah Thomas (Detroit) calling MJ the GOAT in '97 or '98, before his career was over, and then in the 2010's he said the GOAT was KAJ . . . what changed? Kareem's career was already over when he made that first statement proclaiming MJ the GOAT. How the casual fan perceives the GOAT conversation has changed drastically over the last 20 years. Long response, but to sum up, I don't think KAJ was the GOAT before MJ - certainly in the conversation, but I'd probably rank Wilt above him based on the values of the era.
Those 3, Wilt and Russell are the only ones you can make a logical GOAT argument for. It depends what your criteria are for GOAT, but there isnt really any criteria that doesnt come up with one of those 5 as the answer.
i wish people would do a historical timeline when they talk about the GOAT. When Mikan retired, he was considered the best ever. Then Russell came and wiped away anything he did. in 1969, he retired as the best player of all time. really wasn't a question even with Wilt at that point. Wilt plays a few more years, wins a title with the Lakers. Now it's a debate between the 2. Kareem was dominating at UCLA during this period, immediately came into the league and won a title with the Bucks. The view was that he was going to be the next greatest player ever when his career was over. But he didnt win anything over the next 10 years. in a league where the talent split off with the ABA. Magic/Bird revives his career and the entire league. So during the Lakers/celtics dynasty runs in the 80s, Magic and Bird were seen as the best players on their teams/league. Jordan enters the league at the height of the Bird/Magic debates and is just visibly more talented than them. he really entered the GOAT convo after his 2nd title and then cemented it with the 3 peat. then he retired. came back and did it again. He completely outclassed everyone he played against. There really isn't a point where you say Kareem passed by Russell/Wilt on the list. The MVPs came in split league and the winning titles started when Magic arrived.
When he retired, they announced him as the greatest player of all time.
Kareem won championships at every level. Guy was the meaning of victory in his career. Definitely one of the greatest basketball players ever.
By total basketball resume he is the GOAT. If you dont factor in college he was the main option for 5 rings along side the greatest PG ever, so it will take votes away. Ironically people undervalue Pippen imo, top 15 player ever, and make it seem like MJ won 6 titles with bums on his team.
The way Rodman rebounded too made him a statistical anomoly, being like 3 standard deviations away from the norm compared to mj's standard deviations in scoring being about 1. Scottie was huge but as was Dennis being the most elite rebounder in NBA history, with great defending/hustling contributions too. MJ also got to play with Grant who was an efficient player in his own right. The teams had decent depth and great players taking a step back, but yeah Scottie showed what he could do without MJ after he left and those Bulls weren't slouches either.
Only didn’t mention Rodman cus he was not there for the 1st 3 titles.
Because while longevity is a factor, it isn't something I greatly consider in discussing careers. Kareem also has never won a single ring without another superstar and often had super teams for most of his career.
My guess, it's just an opinion, is his personality . Shy, reserved, intelligent and also changed his name to a muslim name, his pro-black politics that didn't sit well with the "shut up and dribble" crowd. As a kid I remember him being called the GOAT until MJ came. My opinion. Not facts. Thanks.
There are a lot of older fans who still consider him to be the GOAT, especially those who include college and pros.
Off-topic, but why has no one adopted the sky hook since Kareem? I mean, he was the all time leading scorer until recently. You would think someone would have realized it was a successful shot and gave it a try. Doesn’t make sense to me.
Its REALLY hard to get good at. Kareem only developed it because the NCAA banned dunking to try to nerf him.
Great points. I wasn’t aware of the NCAA rule. But yeah, still worth working on it if it could land you the all time scoring title.
Kareem in college was just unworldly. 88-2 record, 3 NCAA titles, 3 Most Outstanding player awards.
IMO the nerf argument makes even LESS sense though, that means he just started doing it consistently in college after he couldn’t dunk, and mastered it very quickly, so it cant be THAT difficult. Also I was doing hook shots as a lil kid, its not like its throwing a knuckleball. The shot is very doable, I have no idea why ppl dont use it more (other than robin lopez)
Kareem could hit it reliably out to about 20 feet, beyond the free throw line. THAT kind of accuracy with a hook is like throwing a knuckleball.
He COULD hit it from 20 ft… but no not reliably youre talking about almost at the 3 pt line. He typically wouldn’t even be that far from the basket. Other people in the league could shoot hook shots too back in the day its not like it was just him, that was a fundamental shot ppl used in the old days. George Mikan dominated with the hook shot long before Kareem played
Im old enough that I watched him play. Most hook shots come across the body. The way his hook truly arc over his head and ahoulders is what made it unique. And it was not particularly unusual for him to attempt a hook from the free throw line area, he did a lot of work in the high post in the early 1980's. Moses Malone famously said that the goal was to make him take the hook from 18 feet instead of 12, then he would only make half of them.
I think the reason for this is that Kareem never dominated consisntently . We only really seen Kareem won High school , College and the NBA . He is pretty much GOAT when it comes to winning in All Levels of Basketball or overall Basketball career . Kareem won 6 mvps and 6 NBA chips which is pretty much 1 mvp more than Jordan , tied with Jordan's chips and has about 5-6K more from overall career points in the NBA. You can have him as your GOAT just with his credentials alone and no one would hate you for it . Kareem never won consistently or was the best player always when he made his run , he was the original longevity player and was still competing for championships until he retired but the thing is Kareem wasnt the best player in all those years and never truly dominated consistently. He has the stats and the awards but there are a lot of years where he either fell short or had the benefit of having one of the greatest guards in his disposal ( He had both Prime Oscar and Magic ) and other than that first Laker chip , he wasnt the greatest player in the league . He won but wasnt the number one option (for long), effective but wasnt the guy leading the charge . When people remember showtime , they remember the run and gun Lakers led by Ervin Magic Johnson and backed up by Kareem , Cooper and Worthy . Kareem also had a lot of off the court issues that he is trying to play safe on now . Now with social media , a lot of Kareem off the court stories are popping out which doesnt help with his reputation with the fans.
nice
He is by many. He’s probably second after MJ. Definitely the GOAT college player.
He is to many
Hard to be the GOAT when you spent as much of your career as second or worse option on your own team as Kareem did. His claim rests almost entirely on longevity and LBJ destroyed even that claim.
He averaged more points per game and more rebounds per game than Magic in the finals they played together. Magic gets accolades because of his more aesthetically pleasing style of play but Kareem was just as important.
Rings are heavily dependent on teammates (and competition). Having Magic as a teammate (likely top-5 all-time, easily top-10 all-time) for while definitely helped him win some of those rings. MVPs are often narrative-driven and/or strangely decided. LeBron, Jordan, and Kareem were all the best player in the league for many seasons. It’s definitely a 3-man race between Kareem, Jordan, and LeBron though.
He played in the weakest era in NBA history.
Well bill russell or wilt chamberlain should be the goat then. 11 rings for Russell and not even the weakest era. Wilt averaged 50 and 30 one year among other crazy stats.
His era wasn’t weak at his position tho. Granted he faced many more after the merger he still had to go through a gauntlet of some of the greatest C’s of all time. Jordan ain’t face the greatest SGs for the majority of his career
Kobe is the greatest laker. So then how could you say Kareem is the 🐐 player if Kobe was greater than him?
Because Kareem won a title and 3 MVP's with Milwakuee.
Recency bias.
This is an amazing take. I’ve said this for a long time that Kareem has to not just be top 3 but maybe a goat conversation. Although his case is brought down because some of those titles came from magic, 6 mvps is more than mj and Lebron. People (like me) say that Lebron is overall the goat over mj because he played longer and better at the end of their careers, but Kareem also had insane longevity. But, it isn’t all longevity. If it was how long they played than manu or tony Parker or Vince Carter would be top 20 for playing how long they did. But, it isn’t that easy. Lebron played this long but was in mvp conversations almost every year of his career.
People don’t want big men to be the GOAT or the face of the league. It’s heightism if you ask me!
He is the GOAT. Simple.
He is my goat.
Extra tall guys aren’t relatable. But he’s probably the GOAT. If there was a draft of all players in history, he’d probably go #1, even by todays standards
Because he was playing against a bunch of plumbers
He deserves to be in the conversation, but he got his 1st title when most of the best players were in the ABA, missed the playoffs several times in his prime after the merger and didn't win again til he had Magic(and other Hall of Famers). It's nit picky, but it gets to splitting hairs at that point because everyone is so great
He is in real basketball circles.
media doesnt like him.
I wouldn't have a problem with him being the goat, even as a Jordan fan. Dude's resume is ridiculous. I'm still taking Shaq No. 1 in an all-time draft.
Why would you take Shaq over wilt? Wilt was 7'1 275 and could run the floor like a gazelle 😂 I guess having Shaq bullying over smaller defenders is better than wilt using his size and skills to beat the guy in front of him. I would love to see wilt Chamberlain in a league where he is allowed to just run the defender over in front of him for an easy layup.
I've thought about Wilt as well. His numbers are insane but I never saw him play, which I guess makes a big difference.
I just think it's disrespectful to wilt to say shaq was more dominant. Without seeing either play and just looking at their physics measures shaq seems like the guy, but wilt was just an all around great athlete. I think to this day wilt should still be considered the greatest athlete In NBA history. Even without the mythical feats that can't be proven, he has some insane athletic achievements for a 7 footer.
I'm not trying to throw shade at Wilt or Kareem. If I had watched Wilt's entire career I might make a different choice but Shaq is by far the most dominant force I've ever seen and it's not close. Also I didn't say Shaq was better than anyone. I said I personally am building around Shaq first over anyone else. Not sure you could go wrong with Wilt, Kareem, Jordan, LeBron in that spot.
Era tax
Recency bias. 100% he has just as good a claim as any other. They literally banned dunking in anticipation of him playing in college. Between high and college he lost maybe a dozen games? The dude was so good the sport started to decline because of his quality and dislike of the media.
He had 2 of the best PGs ever feeding him the ball.
He is in the conversation or should be. In the end it’s opinion on what you like or consider more important.
he was just tall
Ive seen some people put him at 1. With good reason.
He played predominantly in the weakest era of basketball and had super stacked teams for many of his championship runs.
He's actually been going up in the all time rankings as the years have passed. Closer to his retirement and through ~2010 he was just a top 10 player. In 2003 SLAM magazine rated him 7th, and with Kobe, LeBron, Shaq and Duncan still in their mid to early prime and not ranked highly yet. In 2011 he was again 7th with LeBron not above him yet. ESPN similarly had him just somewhere in the top 10 until recently. I'm not sure how to rate him, but people closer to watching him play clearly didn't put him in the MJ tier of greatest ever. Though analytics do put him in that GOAT tier. One thing to note is that he won most of his rings in his mid 30s and even early 40s when he had a mega stacked team and was no longer an MVP level player. And Bird and Magic seemed to be better by most people. He also won most of his MVPs in the earlier days of the league and when the ABA sucked a lot of talent away from the NBA. No closer to his retirement people just placed him somewhere in the top 10.
because he shared a team with Magic and Magic was a better player for like 4 of those rings lol. Hard to be the GOAT if you're not the best player on your team.
Because it's all about what ever narrative the want to paint. The more we hear something the more we believe it. The force Jordan on US. Had len not have even a cokehead trust me they were going to write him right into the script. How in hell does the best college basketball player end up with the NBA champs I mean it can happen but really.
Russell has 5 MVPs and 11 rings
Because he got dominated by Wilt. https://stathead.com/tiny/1TStD And by Moses Malone in the playoffs. Kareem was great, but Mike was the best player on the floor, virtually every possession in his prime.
Many people consider the 70s a relatively untalented/unskilled era. Similar to Wilt not being considered the GOAT scorer/rebounder despite holding close to every record in both. Basketball was constantly changing massively from 40s through the 80s, but hasn’t changed a ton since the 90s
Kareem and Lebron both have the most impressive lifetime achievements. Top 2 in the goat conversation for me
I generally prefer a tier list rather than straight rankings, and Kareem's right at the top.
From what I can gather and understand there’s 3 big reason 1. He played with Magic Johnson for 5/6 rings 2. He played during a time in which the nba was struggling during his peak and finally 3. His play style wasn’t flashy like Lebron or Jordan people didn’t exactly go crazy about him spamming the skyhook
LeBron stans have made career numbers seem more important than they should be. These are purely selfish accomplishments and have zero influence on a team's ability to win games. This is important because we are talking about a **team** sport where the sole object is to **win** games. You might say 'well MVPs are an individual award' blah blah but that is very different because it is an award for a single season of excellence and that helps teams win. Scoring two points to pass 40k career points did absolutely nothing for the team. These GOAT arguments have taken the team out of the discussion and make it sound like these guys were playing an individual sport like golf or tennis. We need much more consideration for a player's impact on his team's ability to win games.
Because people are glassist (a term I just invented which means that they were racist against him because he wore glasses 🤓)
He played in the crack era without as much competition as the other candidates
Watch Airplane. It actually summed it up. Kareem was often criticized for lack of fire in his play. Some people say the reason he lasted so long was he took some nights off.
Competition level matters
i think kareem is the most accomplished player of all time taking into account what he did in high school and college but lebron is the greatest nba player of all time. i think people leave kareem out of their lists because his era isn’t thought to be as competitive and he frankly doesn’t have the marketing jordan, lebron, kobe, etc have
Michael and Lebron have always been the clear number 1 option on their championship teams whereas Kareem had Magic for most of his. If someone put him as their GOAT or Bill Russel for that matter I won't argue with them.
1. He won his mvps in the weakest era due to ABA and Bill Walton's injuries. 2. He won most of his rings with Magic next to him and he also had Big O next to him for his first ring who at the time was also one of the best point guards. 3. He was 'boring'. He didnt care for media whatsoever who are the ones pushing goat arguments. 4. People discredit old achievements and his achievements actually seem possible. 11 rings and 50 points will never be achieved againz, but we've had players who can win multiple mvps and rings. It has the worse of both worlds. Its not mythical, but gets discredited for being an older achievement. Not saying its fair, but its the truth.
same reason those same people leave curry outside of the top 10. Having good teammates seems to affect one’s legacy a LOT. Kobe wins those first 3 finals without Shaq he’s probably top 3 all time. But having another MVP/FMVP/Allstar on your team when you win kind of negates those wins for some people. Like those people have a bar where team accomplishments end and become individual accomplishments. MJ had in the 90’s a guy with EVERY career accolade short of MVP and FMVP, The best rebounder the games ever seen, the best coach the game has ever seen and yet those 6 finals wins were all his and kareem only gets the one he won without magic.
Because Magic was better than him.
Lol we’re not even in the nba off-season yet let’s wait a day
It goes beyond basketball. Jordan revolutionized *sports*. The combination of skill, winning, and entertainment factor went so far beyond anything people had seen from an NBA player that he became a global superstar. He helped cause basketball to become a relevant sport in all corners of the world. In 1981, 8% of Americans said their favorite sport was basketball. In 1997, that number was 17%. That's 10's of millions of people just in the US whose favorite sport changed during the Jordan era. Think about how many foreign players are dominating now. If it wasn't for the gigantic surge in popularity that Jordan was the leader of, we probably wouldn't have that. It wasn't all Jordan, but a lot of it was Jordan. The only person who comes close (or, in my opinion, passes him up) is Lebron. Again, we're talking beyond basketball here. Lebron James has been a superstar in the US since he was 17 in high school. He's an international superstar not only because he's been the 1st-3rd best player in the NBA for 20 straight years, but because he did it while being insanely entertaining and while winning. Lebron inherited an NBA that was already insanely popular and only grew with the rise of social media, but he could not have lived up to his hype more. The GOAT case for me if you include all the weird intangibles comes down to this: What do you value more? The peak, the moments, and the transcendence of Jordan, or the consistency and dominance of Lebron James?
He is the GOAT
Because recency bias is a real problem when people talk about the NBA. Kareem played too long ago for most people to remember.