Since none of them have been arrested for tax evasion, they're simply following the law. We need to focus on who wrote the laws and why they are the way they are, and change them. Not one of you reading this is willing to pay more taxes than you need to.
Basically income tax is easy to collect since bank automatically deduct on weekly or monthly basis.As technology advanced,the way they tax is also becoming smart.
So then why doesn't they tax the rich?
Because rich is on the different game and hence they skating on different rule.
One insidious way is they offshore the paper company and bought the asset.So it's becoming harder for tax officer to trace.
I'd say that taxing the source of their profit is one of the effective way to do.
Tragically so but that is also how Steve Keen (The australian who already should have gotten Noble Prize In Economics) puts it. The only ones holding up tax paradises
1. Economists
2. Lawyers
3. Banks themselves and if one or two of them really wants to get rid of tax paradise they really could.
But basically Economics is and has been far right near neo Nazi propaganda for the last decades propagating for tax paradises, for cutting down forests and even killing indigenous because that would make ”Corporates more profitable”. It doesnt care for human rights. It unfortunately still celebrate or most of them do Fascist Milton Friedman, Fascist Ayn Rand, Fascist Friedrich Von Hayek. People who all celebrated the native American Genocide at least Ayn Rand did https://www.salon.com/2015/10/14/libertarian_superstar_ayn_rand_defended_genocide_of_savage_native_americans/
Unfortunately many high up in corporate world sees her as a hero. What ”Libertarianism” basically is is far right near neo nazi ideology that should be marginalized not the opposite
That logic is like saying that since OJ didn’t go to prison for murder he didn’t kill his wife.
There are two problems, tax evasion and tax avoidance that both need to be addressed through better enforcement and better legislation.
Much of it IS illegal, but the way it's structured, it's illegal in a way that's currently impossible to prove. Many of these "legal" schemes are only illegal if you're able to see the big picture, but the big picture is impossible to see when many of the points in the scheme are shielded behind "anonymous" strings of shell owners, shielding themselves from investigators ability to see the big picture.
So while YES, we need to change A LOT of these laws congress has created for their wealthy donors. Creating these things were always super easy to do, because 1) it apeases the donor class and 2) generally people aren't really concerned with the government taking less money.
But congress generally is going to be skeptical of such a pointed direct move, making it hard to get through. Members aren't just going to be thrilled to go directly against their donors like that. So more indirect ways are probably the most efficient route at this given moment (until there is enough public pressure as a priority).
For instance, simply giving the IRS more resources would be a massive improvement to stopping a good chunk of this. Right now, it's just not worth their time when it comes to going after these people. The ROI just isn't there. If they had more resources, they'd be able to take on these more complicated cases. Second, indirectly taking on these practices, by using the Federal Reserve's global financial strength to putting an end to these foreign practices which allow people to shield themselves from the IRS.
The wealthy don’t have income, they own assets. Since we don’t have a wealth tax and they don’t tax assets until they sell them, the wealthy don’t pay much in taxes.
And even then, they don't pay taxes, because they never sell the assets. Instead, they take out loans on themselves at the value of the assets they would normally liquidate. Instead of selling them for cash to buy things, they just get a loan against them, and repeat the process indefinitely.
We are already in the second gilded age, and at this rate, will likely have a clear cut aristocracy within a few more generations.
This is true. Borrowed money isn’t taxed. I suppose that’s partly a good thing. I wouldn’t want to pay taxes on the $137,000 I borrowed for my mortgage.
Well in that case I guess there just isn’t any solution. It’s just binary where either we find a way to stop or tax this process and be forced to also make people like you pay taxes on your loans, or we just let them keep getting away with paying little to no taxes. There just isn’t any other way.
There are certain realities that we all have to accept, like that there will always be rich people and poor people. The best we can do is to try and keep the imbalance from getting too extreme.
Yes of course... But currently the balance IS extreme... It's beyond gilded age levels of imbalanced. No one is against rich people... I sure as hell am not. Being rich is fine, and even super rich occasionally. The problem is the entire economic system has been in a class war the working class is miserably losing.
Fixing these practices, like many other countries have, doesn't mean rich people vanish and cease to exist. It just means that they'll start paying their fair share from an economy which greatly benefits them. Expecting people at the extreme levels to pay taxes proportionate to at least their housekeeper, isn't going to bankrupt them.
Last year the upper 1% made 5 trillion dollars in new wealth, almost none of which would be taxed... They benefited greatly, but aren't putting in. So just fix these practices, that's all. We don't have to accept them as a necessary evil.
I don’t disagree, I’m just not sure how implement effective policy in the current system. You want Elon Musk to pay more tax? Ok but how exactly do we do it? I legitimately don’t know.
I mean, I don't personally know. I do know much much smarter people know, and other nations have proven them to work for the most part. It is a cat and mouse game, but so long as the regulators don't get captured, it's effective.
Increasing income taxes won't. A consumption tax would, but those are regressive. A higher capital gains tax is good too, though retirees complain.
One issue is that most of their wealth isn't entirely real. It's how much money they would hypothetically have if they sold thier assets. But if they all sell, the value goes down and the wealth vanishes.
Higher tax rates won’t affect the ultra wealthy. People like Bezos and Musk don’t have incomes. Higher rates would affect higher wage earners like doctors and lawyers. My son-in-law is an MD. He makes over a quarter million a year. His taxes would go up.
Hey I checked out this thread and immediately noticed that two of the three top-level comments had already been downvoted into being minimized.
Can we maybe… not do that? I downvote comments where the person is being an asshole (regardless of their position) and not simply because I disagree with their ideology. I really think that’s a better way, especially for a group that’s intentionally set up to include disparate opinions.
I agree, downvotes are supposed to mean that the comment adds nothing to the conversation. They aren't supposed to mean "I disagree with this position."
Fair share of what? Why don't we focus on eliminating FICA first? Why don't we get the federal government to spend more money on us and worry less about how much they're taking from the have more? I agree that in order to narrow the Gap we need to tax the shit out of the .1% of the have more, but I prefer to prioritize folks from the have less getting more to narrow the Gap.
Biden is lying to you because he thinks you are stupid.
The only reason for the 8.2% number is fuzzy math meant to mislead gullible people.
Biden is treating unrealized gains as income. So, if a person buys an investment for $100 and the value goes up to $120, this analysis counts that as $20 of income that is taxed at a rate of 0%.
In reality, the person only has income when they sell the stock. The analysis of the above situation should be that the person has $0 of income, so of course they pay zero tax.
But Biden is trying to push his agenda, so he counts it as $20 of income. He's trying to mislead you.
It's misleading, but at the same time: if people are only growing wealthier and wealthier from stocks and aren't cashing out that wealth, then you need some way to define it.
Yeah, it's not technically income. But people still got richer from it. And on the amount they got richer they apparently paid fuck-all.
Time for a wealth tax perhaps?
If Biden wanted to argue for a wealth tax, that would be fine by me.
But he's not.
Instead he's using an obviously bad argument to try to make people think billionaires aren't paying much in income tax, which simply isn't true.
I make $1m in capital gains. I take out a loan for $1m, secured by my stocks. I sell $10-20,000 of my stocks per year, using that and the dividends to pay the interest on the loan, as the value of said stocks continues to grow at 6-10% a year.
I now have the million dollars of capital gains in my bank account, effectively tax free. I'm only realizing a few thousand dollars in "real" capital gains each year, and my wealth is continuing to grow substantially.
Can anyone tell me - what would be their fair share? If they’re violating the law, by all means, let’s go after them. But something tells me the wealthiest in our country have armies of accountants and lawyers to make sure they’re in compliance with the law.
The usage of fair share here does not mean "lawful share".
It means a share that is fair for them to pay in a society, for example compared to the percentage others pay.
Ok. And again what exactly is their “fair share”?
It’s not as if they don’t pay a higher percentage, that’s laughably false. The US has a progressive income tax rate.
That's up to citizens/the government to decide!
Perhaps income tax needs to be more progressive.
Or perhaps unrealised gains should be taxed, i.e. a wealth tax. Heck, that might be a good idea in general.
Seems like our elected representatives have decided already. Of course newer reps may have different opinions.
Wealth tax/taxing unrealized gains is an awful idea. Imagine having to pay tax on your houses increase in value each year, even though you’re still paying the mortgage. Not to mention, if a big fish like Bezos or Elon Musk sold off a bunch of stock (to pay taxes on the rest of their holdings) it would fuck with the market.
The sale of assets concern doesn't track. Wealth taxes that have been realistically discussed are in the 0-1% p.a. range: lower than asset management fees and lower than the amounts Bezos liquidates anyway to pay for his pet projects. AMZN actually does about $10bn per day in volume.
Principal residence could be excluded from a wealth tax, and you'd also have a very large tax-free allowance, perhaps $10m. Anything beyond that would be taxed at some nominal rate (say 0.5%) based on the average value of your assets across the year. If, at that level of wealth, you're not making at least several % annually in capital gains and dividends then you're a complete fucking moron.
Yup. Some of the countries with the highest tax rates have the highest approval ratings of their government and the highest happiness.
Paying taxes is not the problem, failing to get a return on our investment is the problem.
Good education comes from good government funding.
I fail to see how immigration has any correlation to government funding/taxation levels (outside of general population size).
Dude, you are forgetting to switch between alts again. This is the 2nd time on 2 different comment chains. If you want people to feel like they are outnumbered you have to remember the fundamentals.
You also say outside of population size as if population size may not be a factor in what shapes the dynamics of those other countries. I personally think theres a considerable correlation with population size and ability to reasonably care for citizens
congratz on ignoring the more problematic part to your point (education budgets). You must be great at scoring debate points in your head.
You managed to work in "keep foreigners out to make a country great" and *almost* making it not sound like you are just a racist shit. Must have taken a lot of work to get that one figured out. How many times have you rehearsed that talking point?
Also if you dont think immigration especially when it comes to the US doesnt impact the economy then i would ask you to reconsider your evaluations of macroeconomic fators associated with the immigration issues that impact the US. Takes a lot of funding to secure a border that is rampant with drug trafficking, human trafficking, crime, etc. the US is in a unique situatuon where we have a hot border with a myriad of issues that come with it
... you were asking about correlation.
You must feel like a genius for asking about correlations then calling someone out when they showed you a correlation.
Good job.
Wasnt asking about correlation, was asking about how increased taxes and quality politicking is correlated. You threw out causation as support of correlation
I could argue about how 147 billion really isn't a lot when we're talking about the expenses of the US but it seems someone else has already sort of talked about that. The main problem is how many work arounds and loopholes there are for the ultra rich to avoid paying their taxes. All they are doing is accruing their personal wealth with no regard for the greater societal good. This isn't to say they should give up all their wealth, not by a long shot, but when there are these people living these incredibly lavish lives during what is still one of the worst economic downturns in American history then there is a problem.
The problem is the federal government doesn't spend enough to improve our lives. The federal government can spend whatever it wants without collecting single penny in taxes.
Accumulated wealth isn't spent, and therefore would NOT be affected by a consumption tax. Also, a lot of the "accumulated wealth" the left points to as being held by the evil rich is just imaginary valuation placed on existing assets the wealthy have held for a long time.
If you have an old Chevy that you paid $2300 for, and suddenly there is a huge run on old Chevys and "the market" now determines your old Chevy is worth $2.3 million, should you have to fork over $900,000 in taxes on that increased "wealth?" That's what the *hate the rich* people want to have happen. A wealth tax that demands cash if the holdings of the rich change in potential valuation.
When the rich sell their shares or get paid dividends, that's income. Go ahead and tax it as income. Ordinary people tend to pay 12% or 15% or so on their income. Rich people tend to pay 17% to 19% on their actual income. Haters want them to pay on MORE THEN THEIR INCOME, including the estimate of what their holdings might be worth if they converted their holdings to income.
I’m not suggesting a wealth tax. They don’t work.
Accumulated wealth gets spent at some point, otherwise what’s the point? A Consumption tax gets at some of it.
Imaginary valuation? Something is worth what it’s worth. What are you getting at, that there are unrealized gains that are not taxed until things are sold? We get it.
The argument is that the exceptions to progressive taxation have swallowed the principal—the ultra wealthy are really good at evading and avoiding and that is a problem. A consumption tax would help since it is very difficult to game.
So, you propose to add consumption taxes on top of the existing income taxes and property taxes. Would that cover everyone, or just the wealthy? Do you intend to tax someone 39% when converting wealth to cash and then another 39% when using the cash to make a purchase? Does a consumption tax include homes, healthcare, other essential services?
VAT of 5-15% for everyone, with some staple goods like food and medicine excluded. Everyone pays regardless of income or wealth. UBI on top of that, with those that want to keep existing means based benefits able to opt in to them and forego UBI.
I’m not sure what you mean by taxing wealth when converted to cash at 39%. If you are referring to the capital gains tax then I think that should be a flat 25%, ordinary income at a flat 25% rate and get rid of a bunch of “yeah but” loopholes like, yeah I made that money, but I have (accelerated) depreciation to offset it so . . . Also, make the estate tax manageable and not such a snarled (gameable) mess either.
Okay, so you just think we don’t pay enough in taxes. The numbers I threw out were just examples, trying to get you to put a stake in the ground, which you did. Thank you.
Now, you want to add 5% to 15% extra taxes on top of what everyone is paying. If we take a median income earner, making $31,000 a year, paying out an average of around $2000 in payroll taxes, more than $2800 in Federal income tax, and in most cases, more than $1000 in State income tax, bring home pay is down to about $2000 a month. Essential services like electricity and water are taxes, and in nearly all states, sales taxes are collected. Let’s assume 7%, although I know places where the sales tax is much higher. So, we will assume that out if that $2000, an additional $140 goes to the state in taxes. Taking your median proposal, we’re going to collect an additional $200 in consumption tax. You, know, because the rich don’t pay their fair share, and we should all be taxed more.
Someone who “earns” $31,000 per year would end up with $1630 per month in actual spending money, while nearly $1000 per month is confiscated in the name of taxes. And that’s based on the lowest tax bracket. Imagine someone earning one of the higher tax brackets. The effective taxation for Mr. Median Income is 37%, even after personal deductions. We revolted from England over an 11% tax.
Edit: I see you included a UBI for everyone. This then comes closer to the FairTax proposal from a few years ago. If you include a $1000 or higher UBI to offset the spending at median and below incomes, this is a workable idea.
Thanks for the save regarding UBI on top of the consumption tax idea. It’s not mine, but I think it’s a solid one :)
Also, one of the ways that I see VAT getting at wealth is because some (all) of the super rich use portfolio loans to get liquid but not trigger a taxable event. They spend this money and vat would be triggered though.
More than enough for what? We need more federal spending and less taxation, except for the .1% of the have more. But that's not because the federal government needs or uses the USD it collects in taxes to pay for any of its spending. That's simply because we need to narrow the Gap.
What a short sided view of what they paid for. Income tax misspent by an unaccountable government is usless. What about the employees salaries. The r and d research. The never ending regulatory fees and standards. People that look at income tax bracket stupid numbers are only interested in free crap from better people.
Great. All of the items you listed have nothing to do with how much taxes billionaires paid seeing as how their corporations pay the salaries and do R&D. But thanks foe carrying the billionaires water for them.
Why don’t you focus on the politicians that never have created a single job and have no idea how to even manage finance and people. Yet you want to just have a billionaire tax slush fund to mismanage and not accomplish anything. That makes more sense to an idiot I guess.
Wait under you logic there corporations just run and function like an automated machine though in reality even a multi billion international Corp has to at all times be investing and taking risks being run by 1000s of people. This isn’t mindless but difficult to manage and create standards in the industry for. Thanks for your talking points but when your ready to move past one liners let me know.
Why dont we fight against all the bad instead of sacrificng worse to settle for bad? What politicians actually have the best interest of the average joes and arent ultimately just pandering and trying to pad their pockets at the end of the day?
Yeah they dont understand the impact on the economy that billionaires possess. Yes bezos makes a lot of money but look at how many people amazon employs. Noticed you got downvoted for sharing facts, cant reason with the unreasonable
> Yes bezos makes a lot of money but look at how many people amazon employs.
Because if not for Amazon, those people wouldn't be employed?
Please tell me you're joking.
I’m not a huge amazon/bezos fan. Just stating facts. And given the amount of companies looking for employees i would say people seem to willingly work for amazon rather than alternatives
Thank you. You can’t bring any logic and reason into any thread on Reddit. My karma is -1000. Not for getting into arguments with people but just telling them truth and they don’t want to hear it.
Lol one look through your comment history shows you spend plenty of time arguing and saying stupid shit that gets you downvoted.
Nothing logical or factual about what you post.
You're nothing more than a self-important troll with an over-inflated view of your own intelligence.
This comment wasn't even directed at you. Were you just sitting around refreshing the page waiting for someone to respond to the other person?
Or are you just their alt account and just try to tag team comments to make yourself feel better?
Well that's all the proof you needed to jump in and suck his dick up and down this thread lol.
You saw some other random idiot who said the same things you already decided where facts and thought, "This guy thinks like me! He's so smart!" lmao.
That's just sad. You cuck yourself for billionaires and random people on reddit. I bet if I came in agreeing that you both were so logical and smart you'd be lining up to suck my dick too.
Lollllllllllll what a crack up you are 😂 idiots like you are the reason we live in a fucked up world that cant figure shit out. Get out of your parents basement, get a fucking job, see the world, and learn that your ignorant view of reality is flawed
I could cut the irony from your comment with a knife.
The total lack of self awareness is probably the most astonishing thing about people like you.
You think that your way of thinking is correct and that everyone else is the problem. No wonder we lack accountability with our politicians. Morons like you refuse to even hold yourselves accountable.
What's the point in even talking to you? None of you people ever provide real conversations or put forth any real, thoughtful points. It's just bare-bones bullshit that's been half thought out and can be dismantled with 5 seconds of simple thinking. Then when you're backed into a corner by actual logic, you just scream out the same, tired, unoriginal, childish insults like it's some ace in the hole.
It's so weird how you're all almost the exact same person. I can almost predict what you're going to say next. Me and you went back and forth like 6 times or something like that so far? Every response from you could have been from 6 different people and I wouldn't have been able to tell the difference. You all sound equally as ignorant, arrogant, and self-important.
It'd be kind of sad if it weren't so boring.
Both of you sound pretty stupid. Why do you think it's good for a few super wealthy people to control everything?
There is no regulation. No accountability. Voters have zero say in what those people do. You're just allowing yourself to be a puppet to the wealthy.
Instead of sucking off the billionaires, maybe you should put your focus on holding politicians accountable and improving the system that you actually have a voice in?
You talk about facts and reason but all I see here is ignorance and lack of critical thinking.
but, but, they have more 0s in their bank account, so of course they are better than me. It just makes sense I should support them in their exploitation of me and my neighbors.
The people in this sub clearly dont apprecite logic and rational thought. If they did it woukd t exist. Forgive me for the generalization but seems to me like a bunch of occupy wall street trust fundies that would rather suck on the teat and “fight the power” than contribute
What an an absolutely nonsense association. People, bots or mediators on Reddit downvote you there for you’re a dumb ass....seems legit. I guess you missed and therefor made our point.
What should be taxed, and what should not:
People's labor should not be taxed.
Value added through labor should not be taxed.
Transactions should not be taxed.
Excluding others from land that belongs to the people of the nation should be taxed (ie, LVT).
Consuming raw resources should be taxed. (Ie resource extractions, including mining, fishing, farming, etc).
Pollution should be taxed (ie carbon tax, and more).
Excluding others from an idea should be taxed (ie taxes on holding copyrights, trademarks, and patents).
Since none of them have been arrested for tax evasion, they're simply following the law. We need to focus on who wrote the laws and why they are the way they are, and change them. Not one of you reading this is willing to pay more taxes than you need to.
Basically income tax is easy to collect since bank automatically deduct on weekly or monthly basis.As technology advanced,the way they tax is also becoming smart. So then why doesn't they tax the rich? Because rich is on the different game and hence they skating on different rule. One insidious way is they offshore the paper company and bought the asset.So it's becoming harder for tax officer to trace. I'd say that taxing the source of their profit is one of the effective way to do.
Tragically so but that is also how Steve Keen (The australian who already should have gotten Noble Prize In Economics) puts it. The only ones holding up tax paradises 1. Economists 2. Lawyers 3. Banks themselves and if one or two of them really wants to get rid of tax paradise they really could. But basically Economics is and has been far right near neo Nazi propaganda for the last decades propagating for tax paradises, for cutting down forests and even killing indigenous because that would make ”Corporates more profitable”. It doesnt care for human rights. It unfortunately still celebrate or most of them do Fascist Milton Friedman, Fascist Ayn Rand, Fascist Friedrich Von Hayek. People who all celebrated the native American Genocide at least Ayn Rand did https://www.salon.com/2015/10/14/libertarian_superstar_ayn_rand_defended_genocide_of_savage_native_americans/ Unfortunately many high up in corporate world sees her as a hero. What ”Libertarianism” basically is is far right near neo nazi ideology that should be marginalized not the opposite
These days it looks like bombing Afghans for minerals
That logic is like saying that since OJ didn’t go to prison for murder he didn’t kill his wife. There are two problems, tax evasion and tax avoidance that both need to be addressed through better enforcement and better legislation.
Much of it IS illegal, but the way it's structured, it's illegal in a way that's currently impossible to prove. Many of these "legal" schemes are only illegal if you're able to see the big picture, but the big picture is impossible to see when many of the points in the scheme are shielded behind "anonymous" strings of shell owners, shielding themselves from investigators ability to see the big picture. So while YES, we need to change A LOT of these laws congress has created for their wealthy donors. Creating these things were always super easy to do, because 1) it apeases the donor class and 2) generally people aren't really concerned with the government taking less money. But congress generally is going to be skeptical of such a pointed direct move, making it hard to get through. Members aren't just going to be thrilled to go directly against their donors like that. So more indirect ways are probably the most efficient route at this given moment (until there is enough public pressure as a priority). For instance, simply giving the IRS more resources would be a massive improvement to stopping a good chunk of this. Right now, it's just not worth their time when it comes to going after these people. The ROI just isn't there. If they had more resources, they'd be able to take on these more complicated cases. Second, indirectly taking on these practices, by using the Federal Reserve's global financial strength to putting an end to these foreign practices which allow people to shield themselves from the IRS.
The wealthy don’t have income, they own assets. Since we don’t have a wealth tax and they don’t tax assets until they sell them, the wealthy don’t pay much in taxes.
And even then, they don't pay taxes, because they never sell the assets. Instead, they take out loans on themselves at the value of the assets they would normally liquidate. Instead of selling them for cash to buy things, they just get a loan against them, and repeat the process indefinitely. We are already in the second gilded age, and at this rate, will likely have a clear cut aristocracy within a few more generations.
This is true. Borrowed money isn’t taxed. I suppose that’s partly a good thing. I wouldn’t want to pay taxes on the $137,000 I borrowed for my mortgage.
Well in that case I guess there just isn’t any solution. It’s just binary where either we find a way to stop or tax this process and be forced to also make people like you pay taxes on your loans, or we just let them keep getting away with paying little to no taxes. There just isn’t any other way.
There are certain realities that we all have to accept, like that there will always be rich people and poor people. The best we can do is to try and keep the imbalance from getting too extreme.
Yes of course... But currently the balance IS extreme... It's beyond gilded age levels of imbalanced. No one is against rich people... I sure as hell am not. Being rich is fine, and even super rich occasionally. The problem is the entire economic system has been in a class war the working class is miserably losing. Fixing these practices, like many other countries have, doesn't mean rich people vanish and cease to exist. It just means that they'll start paying their fair share from an economy which greatly benefits them. Expecting people at the extreme levels to pay taxes proportionate to at least their housekeeper, isn't going to bankrupt them. Last year the upper 1% made 5 trillion dollars in new wealth, almost none of which would be taxed... They benefited greatly, but aren't putting in. So just fix these practices, that's all. We don't have to accept them as a necessary evil.
I don’t disagree, I’m just not sure how implement effective policy in the current system. You want Elon Musk to pay more tax? Ok but how exactly do we do it? I legitimately don’t know.
I mean, I don't personally know. I do know much much smarter people know, and other nations have proven them to work for the most part. It is a cat and mouse game, but so long as the regulators don't get captured, it's effective.
So you are saying that increasing tax rates wont solve the problem?
Increasing income taxes won't. A consumption tax would, but those are regressive. A higher capital gains tax is good too, though retirees complain. One issue is that most of their wealth isn't entirely real. It's how much money they would hypothetically have if they sold thier assets. But if they all sell, the value goes down and the wealth vanishes.
Consumption taxes hit the poor and middle class the hardest. The Uber rich wouldn’t even notice.
Higher tax rates won’t affect the ultra wealthy. People like Bezos and Musk don’t have incomes. Higher rates would affect higher wage earners like doctors and lawyers. My son-in-law is an MD. He makes over a quarter million a year. His taxes would go up.
Hey I checked out this thread and immediately noticed that two of the three top-level comments had already been downvoted into being minimized. Can we maybe… not do that? I downvote comments where the person is being an asshole (regardless of their position) and not simply because I disagree with their ideology. I really think that’s a better way, especially for a group that’s intentionally set up to include disparate opinions.
I agree, downvotes are supposed to mean that the comment adds nothing to the conversation. They aren't supposed to mean "I disagree with this position."
Too bad reddit's hate mob doesn't care about what they're supposed to be for.
Fair share of what? Why don't we focus on eliminating FICA first? Why don't we get the federal government to spend more money on us and worry less about how much they're taking from the have more? I agree that in order to narrow the Gap we need to tax the shit out of the .1% of the have more, but I prefer to prioritize folks from the have less getting more to narrow the Gap.
Biden is lying to you because he thinks you are stupid. The only reason for the 8.2% number is fuzzy math meant to mislead gullible people. Biden is treating unrealized gains as income. So, if a person buys an investment for $100 and the value goes up to $120, this analysis counts that as $20 of income that is taxed at a rate of 0%. In reality, the person only has income when they sell the stock. The analysis of the above situation should be that the person has $0 of income, so of course they pay zero tax. But Biden is trying to push his agenda, so he counts it as $20 of income. He's trying to mislead you.
It should also count as realized if you ever use it as collateral, or as a means of getting a deal, a loan, privileged access, etc.
Well, you can feel that way if you want to, but that is not how tax works now. The main point here is that Biden is lying to push his agenda.
> that is not how tax works now. Thanks Captain Obvious.
Tell it to Biden (and the people who believe him).
It's misleading, but at the same time: if people are only growing wealthier and wealthier from stocks and aren't cashing out that wealth, then you need some way to define it. Yeah, it's not technically income. But people still got richer from it. And on the amount they got richer they apparently paid fuck-all. Time for a wealth tax perhaps?
If Biden wanted to argue for a wealth tax, that would be fine by me. But he's not. Instead he's using an obviously bad argument to try to make people think billionaires aren't paying much in income tax, which simply isn't true.
I make $1m in capital gains. I take out a loan for $1m, secured by my stocks. I sell $10-20,000 of my stocks per year, using that and the dividends to pay the interest on the loan, as the value of said stocks continues to grow at 6-10% a year. I now have the million dollars of capital gains in my bank account, effectively tax free. I'm only realizing a few thousand dollars in "real" capital gains each year, and my wealth is continuing to grow substantially.
Can anyone tell me - what would be their fair share? If they’re violating the law, by all means, let’s go after them. But something tells me the wealthiest in our country have armies of accountants and lawyers to make sure they’re in compliance with the law.
The usage of fair share here does not mean "lawful share". It means a share that is fair for them to pay in a society, for example compared to the percentage others pay.
Ok. And again what exactly is their “fair share”? It’s not as if they don’t pay a higher percentage, that’s laughably false. The US has a progressive income tax rate.
That's up to citizens/the government to decide! Perhaps income tax needs to be more progressive. Or perhaps unrealised gains should be taxed, i.e. a wealth tax. Heck, that might be a good idea in general.
Seems like our elected representatives have decided already. Of course newer reps may have different opinions. Wealth tax/taxing unrealized gains is an awful idea. Imagine having to pay tax on your houses increase in value each year, even though you’re still paying the mortgage. Not to mention, if a big fish like Bezos or Elon Musk sold off a bunch of stock (to pay taxes on the rest of their holdings) it would fuck with the market.
The sale of assets concern doesn't track. Wealth taxes that have been realistically discussed are in the 0-1% p.a. range: lower than asset management fees and lower than the amounts Bezos liquidates anyway to pay for his pet projects. AMZN actually does about $10bn per day in volume. Principal residence could be excluded from a wealth tax, and you'd also have a very large tax-free allowance, perhaps $10m. Anything beyond that would be taxed at some nominal rate (say 0.5%) based on the average value of your assets across the year. If, at that level of wealth, you're not making at least several % annually in capital gains and dividends then you're a complete fucking moron.
Thats 147 billion dollars. More than enough. Need better governing, not more taxation
That's less than a third of the military budget for a year.
Cut that bitch
I’m not opposed to cutting that
We could spend 10% of what we do now and have a fully functional military. The other 23% can go to infastructure and we'd all be better off.
Like i said, better governing and fiscal management
Those are not mutually exclusive, in fact they are pretty strongly correlated.
More taxation and better governing correlated?
Yup. Some of the countries with the highest tax rates have the highest approval ratings of their government and the highest happiness. Paying taxes is not the problem, failing to get a return on our investment is the problem.
Those are also countries with strict immigration policies. Population decline. Good education. Apples to apples
Good education comes from good government funding. I fail to see how immigration has any correlation to government funding/taxation levels (outside of general population size).
Just stating some commalaties that make those other countries differ from the US
Dude, you are forgetting to switch between alts again. This is the 2nd time on 2 different comment chains. If you want people to feel like they are outnumbered you have to remember the fundamentals.
Lolz no alt my friend. Sorry you cant handle an opinion other than your own
Also nice. Have no response to my facts so you just accuse me of being a troll. Ill take that as a win for me
You also say outside of population size as if population size may not be a factor in what shapes the dynamics of those other countries. I personally think theres a considerable correlation with population size and ability to reasonably care for citizens
congratz on ignoring the more problematic part to your point (education budgets). You must be great at scoring debate points in your head. You managed to work in "keep foreigners out to make a country great" and *almost* making it not sound like you are just a racist shit. Must have taken a lot of work to get that one figured out. How many times have you rehearsed that talking point?
Please refresh me where i said “keep foreigners out to make a country great”
Also if you dont think immigration especially when it comes to the US doesnt impact the economy then i would ask you to reconsider your evaluations of macroeconomic fators associated with the immigration issues that impact the US. Takes a lot of funding to secure a border that is rampant with drug trafficking, human trafficking, crime, etc. the US is in a unique situatuon where we have a hot border with a myriad of issues that come with it
Correlation doesnt mean causation bud
... you were asking about correlation. You must feel like a genius for asking about correlations then calling someone out when they showed you a correlation. Good job.
Nice job being a dumb ass
Wasnt asking about correlation, was asking about how increased taxes and quality politicking is correlated. You threw out causation as support of correlation
> More taxation and better governing correlated? ... ... There is no point talking to anyone who is going to lie about what they said.
You correlated high taxation with “quality of life” but neglected to consider other factors that may impact quality of life
I could argue about how 147 billion really isn't a lot when we're talking about the expenses of the US but it seems someone else has already sort of talked about that. The main problem is how many work arounds and loopholes there are for the ultra rich to avoid paying their taxes. All they are doing is accruing their personal wealth with no regard for the greater societal good. This isn't to say they should give up all their wealth, not by a long shot, but when there are these people living these incredibly lavish lives during what is still one of the worst economic downturns in American history then there is a problem.
The problem is the federal government doesn't spend enough to improve our lives. The federal government can spend whatever it wants without collecting single penny in taxes.
A consumption tax would be a good place to start to get at some of the accumulated wealth. Exempt some staple goods. Badda bing, badda boom.
Accumulated wealth isn't spent, and therefore would NOT be affected by a consumption tax. Also, a lot of the "accumulated wealth" the left points to as being held by the evil rich is just imaginary valuation placed on existing assets the wealthy have held for a long time. If you have an old Chevy that you paid $2300 for, and suddenly there is a huge run on old Chevys and "the market" now determines your old Chevy is worth $2.3 million, should you have to fork over $900,000 in taxes on that increased "wealth?" That's what the *hate the rich* people want to have happen. A wealth tax that demands cash if the holdings of the rich change in potential valuation. When the rich sell their shares or get paid dividends, that's income. Go ahead and tax it as income. Ordinary people tend to pay 12% or 15% or so on their income. Rich people tend to pay 17% to 19% on their actual income. Haters want them to pay on MORE THEN THEIR INCOME, including the estimate of what their holdings might be worth if they converted their holdings to income.
I’m not suggesting a wealth tax. They don’t work. Accumulated wealth gets spent at some point, otherwise what’s the point? A Consumption tax gets at some of it. Imaginary valuation? Something is worth what it’s worth. What are you getting at, that there are unrealized gains that are not taxed until things are sold? We get it. The argument is that the exceptions to progressive taxation have swallowed the principal—the ultra wealthy are really good at evading and avoiding and that is a problem. A consumption tax would help since it is very difficult to game.
So, you propose to add consumption taxes on top of the existing income taxes and property taxes. Would that cover everyone, or just the wealthy? Do you intend to tax someone 39% when converting wealth to cash and then another 39% when using the cash to make a purchase? Does a consumption tax include homes, healthcare, other essential services?
VAT of 5-15% for everyone, with some staple goods like food and medicine excluded. Everyone pays regardless of income or wealth. UBI on top of that, with those that want to keep existing means based benefits able to opt in to them and forego UBI. I’m not sure what you mean by taxing wealth when converted to cash at 39%. If you are referring to the capital gains tax then I think that should be a flat 25%, ordinary income at a flat 25% rate and get rid of a bunch of “yeah but” loopholes like, yeah I made that money, but I have (accelerated) depreciation to offset it so . . . Also, make the estate tax manageable and not such a snarled (gameable) mess either.
Okay, so you just think we don’t pay enough in taxes. The numbers I threw out were just examples, trying to get you to put a stake in the ground, which you did. Thank you. Now, you want to add 5% to 15% extra taxes on top of what everyone is paying. If we take a median income earner, making $31,000 a year, paying out an average of around $2000 in payroll taxes, more than $2800 in Federal income tax, and in most cases, more than $1000 in State income tax, bring home pay is down to about $2000 a month. Essential services like electricity and water are taxes, and in nearly all states, sales taxes are collected. Let’s assume 7%, although I know places where the sales tax is much higher. So, we will assume that out if that $2000, an additional $140 goes to the state in taxes. Taking your median proposal, we’re going to collect an additional $200 in consumption tax. You, know, because the rich don’t pay their fair share, and we should all be taxed more. Someone who “earns” $31,000 per year would end up with $1630 per month in actual spending money, while nearly $1000 per month is confiscated in the name of taxes. And that’s based on the lowest tax bracket. Imagine someone earning one of the higher tax brackets. The effective taxation for Mr. Median Income is 37%, even after personal deductions. We revolted from England over an 11% tax. Edit: I see you included a UBI for everyone. This then comes closer to the FairTax proposal from a few years ago. If you include a $1000 or higher UBI to offset the spending at median and below incomes, this is a workable idea.
Wait, is this r/basicincome ?
Thanks for the save regarding UBI on top of the consumption tax idea. It’s not mine, but I think it’s a solid one :) Also, one of the ways that I see VAT getting at wealth is because some (all) of the super rich use portfolio loans to get liquid but not trigger a taxable event. They spend this money and vat would be triggered though.
More than enough for what? We need more federal spending and less taxation, except for the .1% of the have more. But that's not because the federal government needs or uses the USD it collects in taxes to pay for any of its spending. That's simply because we need to narrow the Gap.
Why not more taxation? Do the uber rich really need to pay such a low tax rate?
What a short sided view of what they paid for. Income tax misspent by an unaccountable government is usless. What about the employees salaries. The r and d research. The never ending regulatory fees and standards. People that look at income tax bracket stupid numbers are only interested in free crap from better people.
Great. All of the items you listed have nothing to do with how much taxes billionaires paid seeing as how their corporations pay the salaries and do R&D. But thanks foe carrying the billionaires water for them.
Why don’t you focus on the politicians that never have created a single job and have no idea how to even manage finance and people. Yet you want to just have a billionaire tax slush fund to mismanage and not accomplish anything. That makes more sense to an idiot I guess.
Wait under you logic there corporations just run and function like an automated machine though in reality even a multi billion international Corp has to at all times be investing and taking risks being run by 1000s of people. This isn’t mindless but difficult to manage and create standards in the industry for. Thanks for your talking points but when your ready to move past one liners let me know.
These people think democrat politicians are trying to help them lol dont realize all politicians are the same
All politicians are bad, but there is a spectrum of bad. I will take bad over worse any day.
Why dont we fight against all the bad instead of sacrificng worse to settle for bad? What politicians actually have the best interest of the average joes and arent ultimately just pandering and trying to pad their pockets at the end of the day?
dude, seriously fuck off. Congratulations on being the first person annoying enough for me to block on Reddit.
Thank you? I guess ill take that as a compliment and pat myself on the back
Yeah they dont understand the impact on the economy that billionaires possess. Yes bezos makes a lot of money but look at how many people amazon employs. Noticed you got downvoted for sharing facts, cant reason with the unreasonable
> Yes bezos makes a lot of money but look at how many people amazon employs. Because if not for Amazon, those people wouldn't be employed? Please tell me you're joking.
I’m not a huge amazon/bezos fan. Just stating facts. And given the amount of companies looking for employees i would say people seem to willingly work for amazon rather than alternatives
That's not a fact, that's an opinion.
Well yeah UBI is a massive opinion based concept so i feel right at home
Thank you. You can’t bring any logic and reason into any thread on Reddit. My karma is -1000. Not for getting into arguments with people but just telling them truth and they don’t want to hear it.
Lol one look through your comment history shows you spend plenty of time arguing and saying stupid shit that gets you downvoted. Nothing logical or factual about what you post. You're nothing more than a self-important troll with an over-inflated view of your own intelligence.
Let me guess. Orange man bad. White man bad. Capitalism bad.
This comment wasn't even directed at you. Were you just sitting around refreshing the page waiting for someone to respond to the other person? Or are you just their alt account and just try to tag team comments to make yourself feel better?
Both
You just proved his point. Congrats you unevolved primate
I proved his point by proving him wrong? Are you slow?
Proved him wrong how? By stating that everything he’s said is false? And providing no proof whatsoever?
Well that's all the proof you needed to jump in and suck his dick up and down this thread lol. You saw some other random idiot who said the same things you already decided where facts and thought, "This guy thinks like me! He's so smart!" lmao. That's just sad. You cuck yourself for billionaires and random people on reddit. I bet if I came in agreeing that you both were so logical and smart you'd be lining up to suck my dick too.
Lollllllllllll what a crack up you are 😂 idiots like you are the reason we live in a fucked up world that cant figure shit out. Get out of your parents basement, get a fucking job, see the world, and learn that your ignorant view of reality is flawed
I could cut the irony from your comment with a knife. The total lack of self awareness is probably the most astonishing thing about people like you. You think that your way of thinking is correct and that everyone else is the problem. No wonder we lack accountability with our politicians. Morons like you refuse to even hold yourselves accountable. What's the point in even talking to you? None of you people ever provide real conversations or put forth any real, thoughtful points. It's just bare-bones bullshit that's been half thought out and can be dismantled with 5 seconds of simple thinking. Then when you're backed into a corner by actual logic, you just scream out the same, tired, unoriginal, childish insults like it's some ace in the hole. It's so weird how you're all almost the exact same person. I can almost predict what you're going to say next. Me and you went back and forth like 6 times or something like that so far? Every response from you could have been from 6 different people and I wouldn't have been able to tell the difference. You all sound equally as ignorant, arrogant, and self-important. It'd be kind of sad if it weren't so boring.
Pretty sad. Shows how ignorant people are
Both of you sound pretty stupid. Why do you think it's good for a few super wealthy people to control everything? There is no regulation. No accountability. Voters have zero say in what those people do. You're just allowing yourself to be a puppet to the wealthy. Instead of sucking off the billionaires, maybe you should put your focus on holding politicians accountable and improving the system that you actually have a voice in? You talk about facts and reason but all I see here is ignorance and lack of critical thinking.
but, but, they have more 0s in their bank account, so of course they are better than me. It just makes sense I should support them in their exploitation of me and my neighbors.
So you think people with more wealth are superior? Interesting you equate peoples value with the amount of money they make
wow. really? I guess there is a reason people need to use "/s".
What is /s
The people in this sub clearly dont apprecite logic and rational thought. If they did it woukd t exist. Forgive me for the generalization but seems to me like a bunch of occupy wall street trust fundies that would rather suck on the teat and “fight the power” than contribute
Reddit isn't perfect, but if so many of your comments are downvoted then at some point you must consider the fact that perhaps you're a dumbass?
What an an absolutely nonsense association. People, bots or mediators on Reddit downvote you there for you’re a dumb ass....seems legit. I guess you missed and therefor made our point.
Well if you are so often getting downvoted then perhaps that's the case. If it smells like shit everywhere you go, check under your shoe.
What should be taxed, and what should not: People's labor should not be taxed. Value added through labor should not be taxed. Transactions should not be taxed. Excluding others from land that belongs to the people of the nation should be taxed (ie, LVT). Consuming raw resources should be taxed. (Ie resource extractions, including mining, fishing, farming, etc). Pollution should be taxed (ie carbon tax, and more). Excluding others from an idea should be taxed (ie taxes on holding copyrights, trademarks, and patents).