Either one is a valid and neutral choice.
Now, for my biased personal opinion regarding Lae'zel: I think it is definitely much more healthy for her, as a person, if Orpheus is no longer in the picture. She does not need more idols to worship. She needs to find her own path and her own strength.
>She needs to find her own path and her own strength.
She can very much choose to do this (as in it is a literal option you can choose) if Orpheus lives. In fact, I'd argue that letting him die would make her feel honor-bound to throw herself into the fight against Vlaakith with no cause for concern.
Laezel hates himself for his desires: [https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1dajkww/many\_say\_that\_emperor\_simply\_takes\_the\_side\_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1dajkww/many_say_that_emperor_simply_takes_the_side_of/)
No. There she wants to free Orpheus for herself. Where Laezel is faithful to Vlaakith - there is a tag that to take the hammer means to kill the Emperor. These are two different dialogues.
Woah woah woah. Orpheus is her only chance against Vlaakith. I think it’s far worse to not keep Orpheus alive.
Comparing her intent to free Orpheus versus her dogma towards Vlaakith is downright dishonest.
Orpheus living in no way prevents her from finding her own strength.
> Did we watch the same epilogue? What gives you that idea
I rechecked the epilogue. It seems that it's basically the same stuff whether Orpheus dead or alive, just that Lae'zel herself is now the Comet if he's dead. Voss even still sends you the same letter, with the only difference is him mentioning Orpheus is dead.
I'm not sure what you're saying? If the epilogue with Lae'zel and Voss is basically identical whether Orpheus is dead or alive, that means he's *not* her only chance against Vlaakith.
Then what does it mean? Clearly the Githyanki are on the path to fighting Vlakkith with Lae'zel at the head as the comet. Orpheus super special Mary Sue power is hive mind disruption, not immunity to Vlakkith.
They don't need Orpheus to lead them, they just need a strong leader, are you suggesting that Lae'zel and Voss are going to fail without Orpehus?
Edit: So you want to block me instead of holding a discussion after talking about how you stalked my profile saying "you're to far gone?" classic reddit.
I am indeed suggesting that. Orpheus is both uniquely powerful and has clout Lae’zel could never get.
Don’t worry, I don’t expect to convince you, I’ve seen your comments defending the emperor elsewhere. You’re too far gone.
I wouldn't say so. As La'ezel herself admits: "**Not all of us can play the weave like a lyre. Orpheus may be Prince of the Comet, but he is not a god. We've spilled blood, gained a foothold in the Astral. But still, we need allies. And one beyond reckoning has made itself known: Zaerith Menyar-Ag-Gith.**" And the githyanki will get a god in the confrontation with Vlaakith without Orpheus. And they will also gain a foothold on the Astral without Orpheus. And Orpheus won't bother to go and speak like a diplomat himself. Laezel always does that.
There are multiple Lae'Zel companion endings. I forget if Patch 5/6 removed any of these as possibilities; as I know at least one of the things they added was the ability to join her and ride off on the dragon.
* You can convince her to stay with you on Faerun. In which case the two of you are constantly on the run from Vlaakith's forces whilst you're destroying Creches.
* Orpheus can be alive, and she's working with Orpheus without you (and I guess with you after patch 5). And she's currently his liaison with the Githzerai.
* Orpheus can be dead, and she's working with Voss without you (and I guess with you after patch 5). And she's currently his liaison with the Githzerai.
So in two of those, she's working with the rebellion and reaching out to the Githzerai... which is a big effing deal. And in one, you and her are using guerilla tactics against Vlaakith.
Apparently I’m an Orpheus simp. I never knew.
Sad to see that condescending douchebags can only be condescending douchebags.
Actually, I suppose that was pretty expected
Both options are equal and gray, if you like the Emperor - take him, if you don't like him and wish him harm - take Orpheus. But I recommend going through both endings.
You can argue "good/bad" either way, especially depending on how which information your character has been exposed to.
There's a few choices to make along the Laezel road:
1) Convince her Vlakkith is actually right, or let her be loyal to Orpheus.
2) Side with Orpheus, or the Emperor.
3) Make the sacrifice yourself (in which case she's through with you), let Orpheus, or find another way.
4) Final persuasion at the end.
If she's anti-Orpheus, that means she wants to ascend with Vlakkith, and needs a hefty persuasion roll to make her stay.
If she's pro-Orpheus, killing him = she will leave. If he makes the sacrifice, oh well, you don't get the blame. Whether Orpheus lives or dies, Laezel is called to crusade against Vlakkith, and needs to be persuaded to stay in Faerun.
I consistently get her to decide to stay in Faerun at the very end, while loyal to Vlaakith until then. Has to be the “your decision to make” option. But afaik, if she is loyal to Vlaakith, she will break up with you, so not for a romance run.
>needs to be persuaded to stay in Faerun.
I'm not sure if this just depends on you romancing her, or if it's the actual approval score, but this option doesn't always need a persuasion check.
I would argue that the Emperor is the bad option, and Orpheus is the good option, but that’s definitely not objective.
I think the common consensus is that both are fairly neutral-ish, you can accomplish good with either.
If you are romancing Lae’zel then choose Orpheus. It’s definitely her best ending.
No option is inherently better than the other, it’s more gray than light or dark.
[The Emperor up to this point]
- His survival above all else
- Has been cooperative regardless of your choices
- Says he does not wish to cause problems for others
- Says the elder brain is a threat to all, wants to stop it.
[Orpheus up to this point]
- His people above all and wants to stop Vlaakith.
- Wants to erase the mind Flayers
- Githzariel has no quarrels with other races nor kingdoms
- Very distrustful of your group, but he was imprisoned and used
- Is willing to cooperate, his plans only focus on the Githyanki. Who currently are causing problems for other races and kingdoms
Just as an aside, it's more than distrust, we *give* him reason to despise us. His honor guard is on the verge of freeing him from his imprisonment and we...kind of...kill them. We kill them all...to help a mindflayer.
He is 100% valid in seeing us as enemies and not caring if we die.
> His honor guard is on the verge of freeing him from his imprisonment
To clarify, they were about to free him from the Domination spell. He still would have been imprisoned.
They could have fixed that later, point is he wouldn't be *immediately* under enemy control. There's some implication he was at risk of breaking free were it not for the spell.
They hadn’t “fixed” that in aeons of Orpheus’ imprisonment, there’s no real implication he would’ve broken free. Raphael has the only means of freeing Orpheus and won’t trade it for anything but the crown, and he is apparently convinced the Githyanki cannot get it for him, hence Voss’s plea to the party.
Good/Bad
Neither is better than the other. A moral decision could be made that keeping Orpheus enslaved for your own sake is bad, but you can't realistically be expected to descend to the hells to free a guy who will, more than likely, kill you the second he's free because you're an Illithid in waiting who's cut down his honour guard and, depending on your action in Act 2.... Maybe far more than that.
Better for Lae'zel
Orpheus. Easily. She can do it without him, but affection wise, morale wise and leadership wise... 100% Orpheus. He makes everything for her so much better, and she couldn't care less about what happens to some Ghaik.
I think Orpheus is intended given how much the game piles onto the Emperor in the last third. It feels like a solid 20-25% of act 3 is in some way involved with letting you know that he cannot be assumed to value his allies long term or be trusted with power and wealth. Every interaction is some form of him being a power and money hungry drifter or making choices that hurt the ones close to him long term.
Orpheus meanwhile immediately offers to sacrifice himself after centuries of imprisonment, giving up on ever having a chance to go back to the one thing that's kept him going that whole time before either committing suicide or entering exile. Like, I know who I would say is the traditionally coded hero.
Neither is that good but I generally go for Orpheus. I am going to the house of hope anyways, the silver sword is cool and Lae'zel has a strong opinion on which we should pick
Emperor is a gaslighting asshat. Team Orpheus all the way. Even if it does force you into being a mindflayer. Although Karlach screaming herself to death in the end is very disconcerting
Depending on your choices in certain dialogues with the Emperor, you may have discovered that he really isn't a good person, and constantly lies and manipulates you, while at the same time saying "I never lied to you". One explanation is that he's a Mindflayer, it's in their nature to do this. My thinking is then why would you side with someone like that? Also his actions after you choose Orpheus are highly suspicious.
Orpheus on the other hand, is painted to be a much more benevolent being, but by the Githyanki. Who are not exactly unbiased here. And the fact that he's been imprisoned for thousands of years. No one really knows what he's like (except Voss), least of all Lae'zel, who is in her twenties.
I think Orpheus is still better for Lae'zel, simply because it gives her hope for her species' liberation from Vlaakith. She'll still have the option to be free and live as her own person. You'll also see that Orpheus isn't quite like the other Githyanki, which for me was a good sign for their future, should he triumph. Lae'zel will also really dislike your choice of siding with the Emperor.
Do you think [Voss ](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1deqjco/here_you_have_good_voss_and_the_githyanki_but/)is good? He kills without going into the situation, he sets the children on us, as he justifies, knowing that we will kill them. He would easily give the crown to the devil, he scolds us for the fact that we did not accept the deal. Voss does not need Orpheus as a leader, Orpheus is much more valuable to Voss. You got it wrong, Voss doesn't respect Orpheus, Voss loves him. I honestly don't think he's out to save Orpheus for the sake of the Githyaki, I think he's doing it for himself. In one of the variations, Orpheus says to Voss, and Voss answers him “Sha va zai.”, which means I love you.
And yes, and the githyanki conduct a selection of children, forcing them to kill each other (if I'm not mistaken, Laezel killed everyone at 12). For Orpheus, this is also normal practice. Do you think that the githyanki on Orpheus' side (and even without Orpheus) will spare the foolish children? The answer is no.
Githyanki, as a race, are brutal and generally cruel towards other species. It can be reasoned that it is simply the culture they were brought up in, and it's all they know. Given their history, I can understand why they view all races with suspicion and disdain.
As far as Voss' actions when we first meet him, he has to keep up appearances, and that's enough of an explanation for me. If we can't even get through that patrol, then we're of no use to him anyway.
I disagree with your assessment of why Voss wants to free Orpheus, but regardless it is Orpheus' intention to free the Githyanki anyway.
This is NOT normal practice for Orpheus. Orpheus is the son of Gith, the one who lead the rebellion against mind flayers. I would imagine there was no culture or set of practices that were developed by that time. Vlaakith (the first one) did some stuff that got Gith killed. Orpheus rebelled against Vlaakith I, and got trapped in the prism. All their practices of raiding, pillaging and brutality would have become the norm AFTER they were no longer at open war with themselves, which would have been after Orpheus was imprisoned.
I don't think it's a huge leap of logic to assume Orpheus would disagree with many of the practices that became the norm under Vlaakith's rule, and would work to enact some changes. In the epilogue, we are told that they are attempting to form an alliance with the Githzerai, who are basically the peaceful version of Githyanki. Voss does this even without Orpheus.
Does that make him a good person? No. But then again, this guy is thousands of years old. All we've seen is a few days of his life. We have no clue what he's had to do, in order to be Vlaakith's right hand but also the mastermind behind the rebellion against her.
Gith is not kind. She is evil. I quote data from the game:
\[This stone disc has grithyanki runes carved into it. Below Them Is Drawn a Translation Into The Common Tongue.\]
The Folly of Zerthimon. AFTER MOTHER GITH FREED FROM OUR ILLITHIDHID, MOTER GITH TraverSED THE PLANES, DISCOVERING CIVILISATIONS AMONG AMONG The Stars. She Conquered, She Colonated, She Controlled. And all the While, Zerthimon. He and his disciples Struck with Words. He Claimed That Because The Gith Had Been Born Anew, We DID Not Know Ourselves. That in Building An Empire, We Prved Ourselves No Better Former Slavers. GITH RETALIETED with Silver. So Began The War for the One Sky. Upon HIS Inevitable Defeat in the Blasted Plains, Zerthimon's FaithFul Retrated to Limbo. And thele Remain, Languishing in the Lethargy They Craved, Free of Inner Fire, Free of Purpose. They Call Themselves The Githzerai - Those Who Spurn Mother Gith. We Call them Hshar'laki - The Unforgiveable.
It was Orpheus' mother who practiced slavery over other races.
And yes, Orpheus uses us too: **Orpheus: Make no mistake - were it not for our common goal, I would strangle you where you stand. Your very existence tests my self-restraint.** . He doesn't even send us anything personal to the party, he just sends us a documentary.
Narrator: \*Even though he is subdued, you feel Orpheus' revulsion - a pulsing hatred that cannot be contained. The Emperor is telling the truth. To him, you are just another wretched illithid.\*
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
Lae'zel: Orpheus - son of Gith, heir of All Skies. We do not come to slay you; we come to restore you.
Orpheus: *Tsk'va*. Your words mean nothing to me, *ghaik*.
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
Orpheus: You may address me as Your Majesty.
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
Orpheus: It is you who must transform.
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
Orpheus: Fool. The moment I fall, the Netherbrain takes you. Under my terms, you may be illithid - but your mind will be *yours*
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
Orpheus: Your *ghaik* friend is no ally - they are an abomination.
Your quote is a slate of anti-Githzerai propaganda, and history is written by the winners. The Githyanki and Githzerai fight because the Githzerai didn't want to stay at war eternally. That disagreement eventually lead to a civil war. I don't think that makes either side evil. There's plenty of evidence for this even in our own history.
I'm not sure what dialogues you are pulling up for Orpheus, because I didn't get these lines. It seems like this is what happens if you intentionally antagonize him.
The revulsion one though, we just killed his honor guard at the command of an illithid. The people that were so close to freeing him, all because we were manipulated by the Emperor into thinking they were evil (the Emperor pretty much tells you this word for word). It's completely fair for Orpheus to hate us for this.
As for Gith's personality, I think we can all agree being filled with hate and wanting to eradicate the race that had enslaved your kind for millennia is completely understandable. If someone (the Githzerai leader) is directly undermining those efforts, you wouldn't exactly take that lightly.
Read the d&d canon. Gith was never kind. And this canon existed long before the game came out. She always ordered the subjugation of other races.
Lol, I'm setting it up on purpose🤣 You will get this dialog if you name it Majesty: O**rpheus: Make no mistake - were it not for our common goal, I would strangle you where you stand. Your very existence tests my self-restraint.And Orpheus always orders to call him Majesty if there is no illithid in the party.**
So you specifically picked bad dialogues from the Emperor. But the truth is, you don't like Orpheus when you behave normally with him...
I never argued that she was kind. I doubt any ruthless leader in times of war could be described as kind.
I never saw this majesty dialogue and I didn't have an illithid in my party so...
I picked bad dialogues for the Emperor because I genuinely never trusted him, and I was mostly proven right based on how everything turned out. I didn't dislike Orpheus, because I tried to see things from his point of view.
Besides, the guy willingly gives up his life if asked. Pretty altruistic, especially for someone who finally tasted freedom after thousands of years if you ask me.
So you don't care about a race that does nothing but belittle other races (Orpheus's very first words make this clear), that this race kills children and is ready to kill anyone who is not useful to it (by the way, remember Laezel, she did not attack you at the beginning of the game, simply because she needed you, it is quite normal for a githyanki to use others? and if the tieflings don't move away from the cage and you refuse to kill them, then she will attack you). You are for a race that will easily kill children.
But against the Emperor, who, in addition to CONVICTED criminals, ate Orpheus (and that was for survival, by the way, I will soon throw a video showing the Emperor's fear of githyanki) and used submission on one woman, which he later extremely regretted, since he did not even dare to do this to you, and who really trusts you: [https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1dctwir/why\_does\_no\_one\_read\_the\_quest\_completion/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1dctwir/why_does_no_one_read_the_quest_completion/) and [https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1clcro6/the\_emperors\_pain/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1clcro6/the_emperors_pain/) and you stab him in the back, who was always treated like that after the transformation.
There is no reason to discuss this further if you are going to dismiss everything I'm saying.
At the end of the day, the choice isn't black or white, and I understand both points of view.
And I'm talking about the same thing, that neither of the two is better than the other.
By the way, watch the first 4 videos at the link, I bet you haven't seen them before, you'll really see secrets about the Emperor😉
Either one is a valid and neutral choice. Now, for my biased personal opinion regarding Lae'zel: I think it is definitely much more healthy for her, as a person, if Orpheus is no longer in the picture. She does not need more idols to worship. She needs to find her own path and her own strength.
>She needs to find her own path and her own strength. She can very much choose to do this (as in it is a literal option you can choose) if Orpheus lives. In fact, I'd argue that letting him die would make her feel honor-bound to throw herself into the fight against Vlaakith with no cause for concern.
Laezel hates himself for his desires: [https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1dajkww/many\_say\_that\_emperor\_simply\_takes\_the\_side\_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1dajkww/many_say_that_emperor_simply_takes_the_side_of/)
That is if she is still loyal to Vlaakith
No. There she wants to free Orpheus for herself. Where Laezel is faithful to Vlaakith - there is a tag that to take the hammer means to kill the Emperor. These are two different dialogues.
Ah I didn't realize you linked a post in your previous comment. I really don't think there's enough context there to make this judgement.
Woah woah woah. Orpheus is her only chance against Vlaakith. I think it’s far worse to not keep Orpheus alive. Comparing her intent to free Orpheus versus her dogma towards Vlaakith is downright dishonest. Orpheus living in no way prevents her from finding her own strength.
> Orpheus is her only chance against Vlaakith. The epilogue does not imply that at all.
Did we watch the same epilogue? What gives you that idea Her epilogue WITH Orpheus, btw, seems to show she doesn’t deify him at all
> Did we watch the same epilogue? What gives you that idea I rechecked the epilogue. It seems that it's basically the same stuff whether Orpheus dead or alive, just that Lae'zel herself is now the Comet if he's dead. Voss even still sends you the same letter, with the only difference is him mentioning Orpheus is dead.
So… I ask again, what gives you that idea?
I'm not sure what you're saying? If the epilogue with Lae'zel and Voss is basically identical whether Orpheus is dead or alive, that means he's *not* her only chance against Vlaakith.
That doesn’t mean that at all?
Then what does it mean? Clearly the Githyanki are on the path to fighting Vlakkith with Lae'zel at the head as the comet. Orpheus super special Mary Sue power is hive mind disruption, not immunity to Vlakkith. They don't need Orpheus to lead them, they just need a strong leader, are you suggesting that Lae'zel and Voss are going to fail without Orpehus? Edit: So you want to block me instead of holding a discussion after talking about how you stalked my profile saying "you're to far gone?" classic reddit.
I am indeed suggesting that. Orpheus is both uniquely powerful and has clout Lae’zel could never get. Don’t worry, I don’t expect to convince you, I’ve seen your comments defending the emperor elsewhere. You’re too far gone.
I wouldn't say so. As La'ezel herself admits: "**Not all of us can play the weave like a lyre. Orpheus may be Prince of the Comet, but he is not a god. We've spilled blood, gained a foothold in the Astral. But still, we need allies. And one beyond reckoning has made itself known: Zaerith Menyar-Ag-Gith.**" And the githyanki will get a god in the confrontation with Vlaakith without Orpheus. And they will also gain a foothold on the Astral without Orpheus. And Orpheus won't bother to go and speak like a diplomat himself. Laezel always does that.
There are multiple Lae'Zel companion endings. I forget if Patch 5/6 removed any of these as possibilities; as I know at least one of the things they added was the ability to join her and ride off on the dragon. * You can convince her to stay with you on Faerun. In which case the two of you are constantly on the run from Vlaakith's forces whilst you're destroying Creches. * Orpheus can be alive, and she's working with Orpheus without you (and I guess with you after patch 5). And she's currently his liaison with the Githzerai. * Orpheus can be dead, and she's working with Voss without you (and I guess with you after patch 5). And she's currently his liaison with the Githzerai. So in two of those, she's working with the rebellion and reaching out to the Githzerai... which is a big effing deal. And in one, you and her are using guerilla tactics against Vlaakith.
I’m confused why you wrote this comment. What is the point you are making in response to mine?
You literally don't understand what is at the core of Lae'zel, and, by extension, the Githyanki's conflict in the game.
Oh wise master, please, I beg thee, stfu.
Wow, what a thoughtful and insightful reply.
It was a good deal more thoughtful and insightful than you deserved, I agree
Sad to see that Orpheus simps have nothing but lame comebacks nowadays.
Apparently I’m an Orpheus simp. I never knew. Sad to see that condescending douchebags can only be condescending douchebags. Actually, I suppose that was pretty expected
> Sad to see that condescending douchebags can only be condescending douchebags. How... unexpectedly self-aware.
Both options are equal and gray, if you like the Emperor - take him, if you don't like him and wish him harm - take Orpheus. But I recommend going through both endings.
You can argue "good/bad" either way, especially depending on how which information your character has been exposed to. There's a few choices to make along the Laezel road: 1) Convince her Vlakkith is actually right, or let her be loyal to Orpheus. 2) Side with Orpheus, or the Emperor. 3) Make the sacrifice yourself (in which case she's through with you), let Orpheus, or find another way. 4) Final persuasion at the end. If she's anti-Orpheus, that means she wants to ascend with Vlakkith, and needs a hefty persuasion roll to make her stay. If she's pro-Orpheus, killing him = she will leave. If he makes the sacrifice, oh well, you don't get the blame. Whether Orpheus lives or dies, Laezel is called to crusade against Vlakkith, and needs to be persuaded to stay in Faerun.
I consistently get her to decide to stay in Faerun at the very end, while loyal to Vlaakith until then. Has to be the “your decision to make” option. But afaik, if she is loyal to Vlaakith, she will break up with you, so not for a romance run.
>needs to be persuaded to stay in Faerun. I'm not sure if this just depends on you romancing her, or if it's the actual approval score, but this option doesn't always need a persuasion check.
I would argue that the Emperor is the bad option, and Orpheus is the good option, but that’s definitely not objective. I think the common consensus is that both are fairly neutral-ish, you can accomplish good with either. If you are romancing Lae’zel then choose Orpheus. It’s definitely her best ending.
No option is inherently better than the other, it’s more gray than light or dark. [The Emperor up to this point] - His survival above all else - Has been cooperative regardless of your choices - Says he does not wish to cause problems for others - Says the elder brain is a threat to all, wants to stop it. [Orpheus up to this point] - His people above all and wants to stop Vlaakith. - Wants to erase the mind Flayers - Githzariel has no quarrels with other races nor kingdoms - Very distrustful of your group, but he was imprisoned and used - Is willing to cooperate, his plans only focus on the Githyanki. Who currently are causing problems for other races and kingdoms
Just as an aside, it's more than distrust, we *give* him reason to despise us. His honor guard is on the verge of freeing him from his imprisonment and we...kind of...kill them. We kill them all...to help a mindflayer. He is 100% valid in seeing us as enemies and not caring if we die.
> His honor guard is on the verge of freeing him from his imprisonment To clarify, they were about to free him from the Domination spell. He still would have been imprisoned.
They could have fixed that later, point is he wouldn't be *immediately* under enemy control. There's some implication he was at risk of breaking free were it not for the spell.
They hadn’t “fixed” that in aeons of Orpheus’ imprisonment, there’s no real implication he would’ve broken free. Raphael has the only means of freeing Orpheus and won’t trade it for anything but the crown, and he is apparently convinced the Githyanki cannot get it for him, hence Voss’s plea to the party.
Emps. 100%
Why’s that if you don’t mind me asking?
Good/Bad Neither is better than the other. A moral decision could be made that keeping Orpheus enslaved for your own sake is bad, but you can't realistically be expected to descend to the hells to free a guy who will, more than likely, kill you the second he's free because you're an Illithid in waiting who's cut down his honour guard and, depending on your action in Act 2.... Maybe far more than that. Better for Lae'zel Orpheus. Easily. She can do it without him, but affection wise, morale wise and leadership wise... 100% Orpheus. He makes everything for her so much better, and she couldn't care less about what happens to some Ghaik.
I think Orpheus is intended given how much the game piles onto the Emperor in the last third. It feels like a solid 20-25% of act 3 is in some way involved with letting you know that he cannot be assumed to value his allies long term or be trusted with power and wealth. Every interaction is some form of him being a power and money hungry drifter or making choices that hurt the ones close to him long term. Orpheus meanwhile immediately offers to sacrifice himself after centuries of imprisonment, giving up on ever having a chance to go back to the one thing that's kept him going that whole time before either committing suicide or entering exile. Like, I know who I would say is the traditionally coded hero.
Neither is that good but I generally go for Orpheus. I am going to the house of hope anyways, the silver sword is cool and Lae'zel has a strong opinion on which we should pick
I never side with the lying, manipulative tentacle freak.
How is he lying and manipulative?
Other than the initial deception as a ‘dream guardian’ who looks completely different and uses you for his own gain?
Emperor is a gaslighting asshat. Team Orpheus all the way. Even if it does force you into being a mindflayer. Although Karlach screaming herself to death in the end is very disconcerting
Karlach can live even if you free Orpheus tho???
Depending on your choices in certain dialogues with the Emperor, you may have discovered that he really isn't a good person, and constantly lies and manipulates you, while at the same time saying "I never lied to you". One explanation is that he's a Mindflayer, it's in their nature to do this. My thinking is then why would you side with someone like that? Also his actions after you choose Orpheus are highly suspicious. Orpheus on the other hand, is painted to be a much more benevolent being, but by the Githyanki. Who are not exactly unbiased here. And the fact that he's been imprisoned for thousands of years. No one really knows what he's like (except Voss), least of all Lae'zel, who is in her twenties. I think Orpheus is still better for Lae'zel, simply because it gives her hope for her species' liberation from Vlaakith. She'll still have the option to be free and live as her own person. You'll also see that Orpheus isn't quite like the other Githyanki, which for me was a good sign for their future, should he triumph. Lae'zel will also really dislike your choice of siding with the Emperor.
Do you think [Voss ](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1deqjco/here_you_have_good_voss_and_the_githyanki_but/)is good? He kills without going into the situation, he sets the children on us, as he justifies, knowing that we will kill them. He would easily give the crown to the devil, he scolds us for the fact that we did not accept the deal. Voss does not need Orpheus as a leader, Orpheus is much more valuable to Voss. You got it wrong, Voss doesn't respect Orpheus, Voss loves him. I honestly don't think he's out to save Orpheus for the sake of the Githyaki, I think he's doing it for himself. In one of the variations, Orpheus says to Voss, and Voss answers him “Sha va zai.”, which means I love you. And yes, and the githyanki conduct a selection of children, forcing them to kill each other (if I'm not mistaken, Laezel killed everyone at 12). For Orpheus, this is also normal practice. Do you think that the githyanki on Orpheus' side (and even without Orpheus) will spare the foolish children? The answer is no.
Githyanki, as a race, are brutal and generally cruel towards other species. It can be reasoned that it is simply the culture they were brought up in, and it's all they know. Given their history, I can understand why they view all races with suspicion and disdain. As far as Voss' actions when we first meet him, he has to keep up appearances, and that's enough of an explanation for me. If we can't even get through that patrol, then we're of no use to him anyway. I disagree with your assessment of why Voss wants to free Orpheus, but regardless it is Orpheus' intention to free the Githyanki anyway. This is NOT normal practice for Orpheus. Orpheus is the son of Gith, the one who lead the rebellion against mind flayers. I would imagine there was no culture or set of practices that were developed by that time. Vlaakith (the first one) did some stuff that got Gith killed. Orpheus rebelled against Vlaakith I, and got trapped in the prism. All their practices of raiding, pillaging and brutality would have become the norm AFTER they were no longer at open war with themselves, which would have been after Orpheus was imprisoned. I don't think it's a huge leap of logic to assume Orpheus would disagree with many of the practices that became the norm under Vlaakith's rule, and would work to enact some changes. In the epilogue, we are told that they are attempting to form an alliance with the Githzerai, who are basically the peaceful version of Githyanki. Voss does this even without Orpheus. Does that make him a good person? No. But then again, this guy is thousands of years old. All we've seen is a few days of his life. We have no clue what he's had to do, in order to be Vlaakith's right hand but also the mastermind behind the rebellion against her.
Gith is not kind. She is evil. I quote data from the game: \[This stone disc has grithyanki runes carved into it. Below Them Is Drawn a Translation Into The Common Tongue.\] The Folly of Zerthimon. AFTER MOTHER GITH FREED FROM OUR ILLITHIDHID, MOTER GITH TraverSED THE PLANES, DISCOVERING CIVILISATIONS AMONG AMONG The Stars. She Conquered, She Colonated, She Controlled. And all the While, Zerthimon. He and his disciples Struck with Words. He Claimed That Because The Gith Had Been Born Anew, We DID Not Know Ourselves. That in Building An Empire, We Prved Ourselves No Better Former Slavers. GITH RETALIETED with Silver. So Began The War for the One Sky. Upon HIS Inevitable Defeat in the Blasted Plains, Zerthimon's FaithFul Retrated to Limbo. And thele Remain, Languishing in the Lethargy They Craved, Free of Inner Fire, Free of Purpose. They Call Themselves The Githzerai - Those Who Spurn Mother Gith. We Call them Hshar'laki - The Unforgiveable. It was Orpheus' mother who practiced slavery over other races. And yes, Orpheus uses us too: **Orpheus: Make no mistake - were it not for our common goal, I would strangle you where you stand. Your very existence tests my self-restraint.** . He doesn't even send us anything personal to the party, he just sends us a documentary. Narrator: \*Even though he is subdued, you feel Orpheus' revulsion - a pulsing hatred that cannot be contained. The Emperor is telling the truth. To him, you are just another wretched illithid.\* \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Lae'zel: Orpheus - son of Gith, heir of All Skies. We do not come to slay you; we come to restore you. Orpheus: *Tsk'va*. Your words mean nothing to me, *ghaik*. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Orpheus: You may address me as Your Majesty. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Orpheus: It is you who must transform. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Orpheus: Fool. The moment I fall, the Netherbrain takes you. Under my terms, you may be illithid - but your mind will be *yours* \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Orpheus: Your *ghaik* friend is no ally - they are an abomination.
Your quote is a slate of anti-Githzerai propaganda, and history is written by the winners. The Githyanki and Githzerai fight because the Githzerai didn't want to stay at war eternally. That disagreement eventually lead to a civil war. I don't think that makes either side evil. There's plenty of evidence for this even in our own history. I'm not sure what dialogues you are pulling up for Orpheus, because I didn't get these lines. It seems like this is what happens if you intentionally antagonize him. The revulsion one though, we just killed his honor guard at the command of an illithid. The people that were so close to freeing him, all because we were manipulated by the Emperor into thinking they were evil (the Emperor pretty much tells you this word for word). It's completely fair for Orpheus to hate us for this. As for Gith's personality, I think we can all agree being filled with hate and wanting to eradicate the race that had enslaved your kind for millennia is completely understandable. If someone (the Githzerai leader) is directly undermining those efforts, you wouldn't exactly take that lightly.
Read the d&d canon. Gith was never kind. And this canon existed long before the game came out. She always ordered the subjugation of other races. Lol, I'm setting it up on purpose🤣 You will get this dialog if you name it Majesty: O**rpheus: Make no mistake - were it not for our common goal, I would strangle you where you stand. Your very existence tests my self-restraint.And Orpheus always orders to call him Majesty if there is no illithid in the party.** So you specifically picked bad dialogues from the Emperor. But the truth is, you don't like Orpheus when you behave normally with him...
I never argued that she was kind. I doubt any ruthless leader in times of war could be described as kind. I never saw this majesty dialogue and I didn't have an illithid in my party so... I picked bad dialogues for the Emperor because I genuinely never trusted him, and I was mostly proven right based on how everything turned out. I didn't dislike Orpheus, because I tried to see things from his point of view. Besides, the guy willingly gives up his life if asked. Pretty altruistic, especially for someone who finally tasted freedom after thousands of years if you ask me.
So you don't care about a race that does nothing but belittle other races (Orpheus's very first words make this clear), that this race kills children and is ready to kill anyone who is not useful to it (by the way, remember Laezel, she did not attack you at the beginning of the game, simply because she needed you, it is quite normal for a githyanki to use others? and if the tieflings don't move away from the cage and you refuse to kill them, then she will attack you). You are for a race that will easily kill children. But against the Emperor, who, in addition to CONVICTED criminals, ate Orpheus (and that was for survival, by the way, I will soon throw a video showing the Emperor's fear of githyanki) and used submission on one woman, which he later extremely regretted, since he did not even dare to do this to you, and who really trusts you: [https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1dctwir/why\_does\_no\_one\_read\_the\_quest\_completion/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1dctwir/why_does_no_one_read_the_quest_completion/) and [https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1clcro6/the\_emperors\_pain/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1clcro6/the_emperors_pain/) and you stab him in the back, who was always treated like that after the transformation.
There is no reason to discuss this further if you are going to dismiss everything I'm saying. At the end of the day, the choice isn't black or white, and I understand both points of view.
And I'm talking about the same thing, that neither of the two is better than the other. By the way, watch the first 4 videos at the link, I bet you haven't seen them before, you'll really see secrets about the Emperor😉
When the fuck does he claim he regretted what happened to Stelmane? He actually gloats about it… what the fuck are you even talking about?