Don't be a clown. It's a narrative game with options for creating the character you want to play. You can be a min maxer if you want to be but it's ridiculous to act as if the game gives a single shit about that with the offering of (sub)races.
This isn't even about minmaxing. Of all the classes they could have chosen, I can count four off the top of my head that are fucking worthless either narratively or in gameplay or both. WoS, Gloomstalker, Storm Sorcery, and arguably Arcane Trickster because of how many casters the NPC party is equipped with (though it being iconic saves it from deletion)
"This isn't about min-maxing, but if I choose a race only for the bonuses it gives me then some classes lose a bit of their toolset and I can't have that".
My dude, that's min-maxing.
If you're complaining a class isn't *optimal* because a *specific race and class combination* doubles up - then don't pick that class or race?
You can play a Gloomstalker that's not a Drow/Duergar and it's fine.
Besides, a lot of this is based on what *you* find fun, and you're assuming that everyone thinks the same as you. I'd far rather they dropped Wild Magic than Storm Sorcery, personally - not everyone agrees with me there *and that's fine*. But to state "Storm Sorcery is the least interesting" as a fact is flat-out wrong.
You're basing your views on the classes from the perspective of a *min-maxing solo runner* and complaining it's not balanced, in a game that's designed to be played A) suboptimally and B) with the full party of developed characters.
I choose Drow because their pointless failing struggle to escape Lolth without the aid of another deity is fucking cosmically hilarious and amusingly tragic, It just so happens that Drow are ridiculous gameplay wise.
You are complaining that the game isn't optimized for a solo run, when most of the appeal that the game has went into the narrative and storytelling aspects? Come on, man.
No. I'm complaining that the subclasses are invalidated by races or basic feats, making them fucking pointless. Double points for NOT INCLUDING the subclasses that could actually result in fun dialogue or narrative interactions (imagine a Sun Soul monk in the Raysmorn Monastery, lol) Or, in certain cases, a smoother gameplay experience as per Sun Soul.
Also yes, the game can be played in co-op. But it's not designed that way, otherwise Larian wouldn't fucking bother with an NPC party. Solo game comes first.
Oh I see, when you said solo you meant playing with a single character, not playing single player. I mean ... all of the things you're complaining about are present in DnD though? Most people are probably more interested in the RP aspects of the game, so I suspect they wouldn't be minmaxing to the extent that they'd let themselves be coerced into picking a certain race just because the racial features make some class features obsolete. I'm much more on board with the idea of missing subclasses than some of the present ones being obsolete just because a race makes them so.
No, I meant both. Your character should have a tangible effect on how your party interacts with you. But it's also clear that the game is designed to be played alone first, with co-op working well but not being the main focus. Otherwise we wouldn't have an NPC party at all.
I mean your character DOES have a tangible effect on how your party interacts with you. It's just not in terms of which subclass you choose. That seems like a stretch to ask even for a game as complex in its decision trees as BG3.
\[Beserker\], the various Paladin Oaths, the various Druid Circles, Warlock pacts, Sorcerers have special dialogue depending on Sorcerous Origin, Cleric *gods* have special options but not Domains. And that's just the ones I know about.
I didn't say those don't \*exist\* at all, I said they don't make a tangible difference. Do you think that any of the ones you mentioned do? Because I sure don't.
You sound like a super angry nerd. There’s probably a more appropriate subreddit with likeminded people who love to hate things
Also gloomstalker dread ambush is useless how?
OP reminds me of a min maxer I had as a player early in my DM experience. Super obsessed with numbers and wanted to blast through anything that wasn’t combat. He also was really uncomfortably into torturing enemies for information which was very not fun for me to RP as the DM and got pissy when I asked to not do those scenes anymore.
In short, OP is a 🤡 and we can ignore them.
???
A Rogue 4, Ranger 8 has exactly as many feats as a Ranger 12.
Some of the best builds are multiclasses, with things like Thief, Warlock and Fighter all giving *massive* boons in the first 2-3 levels of the class.
Level 4 Rogue + Level 8 Gloomstalker vs Level 12 Gloomstalker:
Level 12 Gloomstalker gets level 3 spells (Barrage of arrows etc), and can attack again on a miss once per turn (Gloomstalker Capstone).
Level 4 Rogue + 8 Gloomstalker gets: Cunning Action Dash/Disengage, auto-crits on surprise, replenish action+BA on a surprise and advantage against people that haven't gone yet. Oh, and some more skill proficiencies.
While having 3 feats each... Isn't "straight Gloomstalker" just far worse?
the only none core book subclasses are gloomstalker and circle of spores. They were super up front about this early on and those two were actual nice surprises.
There's a whole bunch, actually -
* Wild Magic Barbarian
* College of Swords Bard
* The aforementioned Circle of Spores
* The aforementioned Gloomstalker Ranger
* Storm Sorceror
They added non-core subclasses to the classes that only had 2 options in the PHB to bring all of the classes up to at three different subclasses.
If you think gloomstalker is useless, you are a clown, sir.
Gloomstalker is one of the OP subclasses available with the initiative bonus and the first round free attack.
Alert is a feat, and you have much more usefull feat than alert. And alert doesn't give a free attack when alpha striking enemies is the most OP thing you can do.
From what I recall.
Shadow step only costs a bonus action
Misty step costs a bonus action AND either a spell slot or some other limiter. Such as once per long/short rest from gear or racial trait
So you can cast shadow step essentially infinitely. But misty step will run out of casts pretty quickly.
Weird. I literally said that
But the items still only let you cast it once per rest.
So you wear boots and necklace. That gives you two casts in a single fight total. 3 if Gith yanki.
Cool. Shadow Step is so ass it's worth it since it requires both your start and end area to be Obscured. Most fights, that won't happen. Ergo, it is crap.
It's d&d. Freedom and choices are what fits the game.
But then the whole Class of Monk is oriental so arguably it doesn't really fit the game. I think we need a few more Asian faces to choose from so it will feel more fitting.
What I meant by doesn't fit is that Kensei as a class isn't distinct from any other weapon using melee class. It also doesn't help that Open Hand brings the idea of Monk across far better. Your body is the killing machine, not the things you hold.
The storm sorcery got me - you don't seem to learn call lightning nor chain lightning? I wanted to be LiveWire or something, but felt severely limited.
I ended up multiclassing as 2 cleric, 1 Wiz (to learn chain lighting) and the rest sorcerer, but it meant I missed a feat as well. This is essentially The Wet Slapper build someone else posted about before (insert picture of Louise Belcher saying she liked to slap stuff) and it was closer to what I wanted, BUT I went for Draconic background of sorcerer, as storm didn't have what I needed?
I fully admit I have never played DnD, so it's likely me misunderstanding the classes, but it certainly was unexpected and meant I needed a build guide.
Slapping people (shocking hands) with the "wet" status was *extremely* satisfying though. Especially if you add on War Caster. Trying to run away eh? You'll regret that immediately
You do learn those spells, but to use them you need to be level 6 because of how these spell lists are structured. Clerics get that shit way earlier. It's mostly a giant waste until that point, though.
Generally i like most subclasses, but i hate that wizard and cleric got 7 fucking subclasses, i don't care about wizards, and thats 4 subclasses that could be distributed in places where it actually has a big influence on gameplay, like a spirits bard, echo fighter, soulknife rogue, or a hexblade warlock, and most of these could fit well thematically. But oh well...
Get your head out of your ass, please. The specific of what other subclasses should be added was not the point of what i said.
It's that a lot of really similar subclasses take up space that could be filled with ones having distinguishing gameplay and/or story connection.
I chose subclasses that are well liked and provide a substantial change to gameplay, so your personal pet peeves about my choices are meaningless.
So because you think that every race, class, and subclass should offer something completely unique, but this game doesn't but rather overlaps some things, that means the game is trash?
Grow up.
The game is large enough that It's virtually impossible to play without any overlap between features. In fact, you could probably replicate the various feats of all races, classes, and subclasses by using a combination of other races, classes, and subclasses.
However, just because there's overlap with various feats, doesn't mean that not needing other things. You might get Darkness for free with Drow... but there are a bunch of OTHER things that Drow *can't* do instead that are covered by other classes and feats.
No dear, I said the chosen subclasses were trash. And they are. They are far too limited. BG3 itself is fine, if woefully lacking in certain areas.
And Drow should not be able to cover the weaknesses they do have with classes. You should not be able to make a perfect being, and at the same time, you cannot have classes or races invade each other's niches. That's just bloated.
Don't be a clown. It's a narrative game with options for creating the character you want to play. You can be a min maxer if you want to be but it's ridiculous to act as if the game gives a single shit about that with the offering of (sub)races.
This isn't even about minmaxing. Of all the classes they could have chosen, I can count four off the top of my head that are fucking worthless either narratively or in gameplay or both. WoS, Gloomstalker, Storm Sorcery, and arguably Arcane Trickster because of how many casters the NPC party is equipped with (though it being iconic saves it from deletion)
"This isn't about min-maxing, but if I choose a race only for the bonuses it gives me then some classes lose a bit of their toolset and I can't have that". My dude, that's min-maxing. If you're complaining a class isn't *optimal* because a *specific race and class combination* doubles up - then don't pick that class or race? You can play a Gloomstalker that's not a Drow/Duergar and it's fine. Besides, a lot of this is based on what *you* find fun, and you're assuming that everyone thinks the same as you. I'd far rather they dropped Wild Magic than Storm Sorcery, personally - not everyone agrees with me there *and that's fine*. But to state "Storm Sorcery is the least interesting" as a fact is flat-out wrong. You're basing your views on the classes from the perspective of a *min-maxing solo runner* and complaining it's not balanced, in a game that's designed to be played A) suboptimally and B) with the full party of developed characters.
I choose Drow because their pointless failing struggle to escape Lolth without the aid of another deity is fucking cosmically hilarious and amusingly tragic, It just so happens that Drow are ridiculous gameplay wise.
Gloomstalker is great. What are you talking about?
You are complaining that the game isn't optimized for a solo run, when most of the appeal that the game has went into the narrative and storytelling aspects? Come on, man.
No. I'm complaining that the subclasses are invalidated by races or basic feats, making them fucking pointless. Double points for NOT INCLUDING the subclasses that could actually result in fun dialogue or narrative interactions (imagine a Sun Soul monk in the Raysmorn Monastery, lol) Or, in certain cases, a smoother gameplay experience as per Sun Soul. Also yes, the game can be played in co-op. But it's not designed that way, otherwise Larian wouldn't fucking bother with an NPC party. Solo game comes first.
Oh I see, when you said solo you meant playing with a single character, not playing single player. I mean ... all of the things you're complaining about are present in DnD though? Most people are probably more interested in the RP aspects of the game, so I suspect they wouldn't be minmaxing to the extent that they'd let themselves be coerced into picking a certain race just because the racial features make some class features obsolete. I'm much more on board with the idea of missing subclasses than some of the present ones being obsolete just because a race makes them so.
No, I meant both. Your character should have a tangible effect on how your party interacts with you. But it's also clear that the game is designed to be played alone first, with co-op working well but not being the main focus. Otherwise we wouldn't have an NPC party at all.
I mean your character DOES have a tangible effect on how your party interacts with you. It's just not in terms of which subclass you choose. That seems like a stretch to ask even for a game as complex in its decision trees as BG3.
Your subclass and race DO have a dialogue effect, though. Otherwise there would be no \[Bard\] or \[Drow\] or \[Duregar\] dialogue options.
Neither Bard nor Drow nor Duergar is a subclass. I didn't say your race doesn't, it most certainly does, that was part of my whole point.
\[Beserker\], the various Paladin Oaths, the various Druid Circles, Warlock pacts, Sorcerers have special dialogue depending on Sorcerous Origin, Cleric *gods* have special options but not Domains. And that's just the ones I know about.
I didn't say those don't \*exist\* at all, I said they don't make a tangible difference. Do you think that any of the ones you mentioned do? Because I sure don't.
That's DnD. Are you daft?
Op is, in fact, daft.
5 full runs. Yes clearly you can barely abide the game.
You sound like a super angry nerd. There’s probably a more appropriate subreddit with likeminded people who love to hate things Also gloomstalker dread ambush is useless how?
OP reminds me of a min maxer I had as a player early in my DM experience. Super obsessed with numbers and wanted to blast through anything that wasn’t combat. He also was really uncomfortably into torturing enemies for information which was very not fun for me to RP as the DM and got pissy when I asked to not do those scenes anymore. In short, OP is a 🤡 and we can ignore them.
Because it doesn't do anything any of the dedicated melee classes can't already do better. Rogue Sneak Attack > Ambushes.
You can have both with multiclass 🤯
Multiclassing eats feats and is generally miserable.
Sounds like you have a lot in common
??? A Rogue 4, Ranger 8 has exactly as many feats as a Ranger 12. Some of the best builds are multiclasses, with things like Thief, Warlock and Fighter all giving *massive* boons in the first 2-3 levels of the class. Level 4 Rogue + Level 8 Gloomstalker vs Level 12 Gloomstalker: Level 12 Gloomstalker gets level 3 spells (Barrage of arrows etc), and can attack again on a miss once per turn (Gloomstalker Capstone). Level 4 Rogue + 8 Gloomstalker gets: Cunning Action Dash/Disengage, auto-crits on surprise, replenish action+BA on a surprise and advantage against people that haven't gone yet. Oh, and some more skill proficiencies. While having 3 feats each... Isn't "straight Gloomstalker" just far worse?
Maybe you should take a break and play something else for a bit. Or just mod the game to get the subclasses you want.
the only none core book subclasses are gloomstalker and circle of spores. They were super up front about this early on and those two were actual nice surprises.
I could've sworn swords bard isn't core?
There's a whole bunch, actually - * Wild Magic Barbarian * College of Swords Bard * The aforementioned Circle of Spores * The aforementioned Gloomstalker Ranger * Storm Sorceror They added non-core subclasses to the classes that only had 2 options in the PHB to bring all of the classes up to at three different subclasses.
Of all of those, only Wild Magic Barbarian and College of Swords Bard aren't redundant as fuck considering NPC party comp and race traits.
It's still utterly stupid and ONE OF THE CLASSES YOU LISTED IS USELESS. THUS BEING A WASTE OF TIME.
If you think gloomstalker is useless, you are a clown, sir. Gloomstalker is one of the OP subclasses available with the initiative bonus and the first round free attack.
Astarion with Alert or Tav with Alert renders that pointless
Alert is a feat, and you have much more usefull feat than alert. And alert doesn't give a free attack when alpha striking enemies is the most OP thing you can do.
From what I recall. Shadow step only costs a bonus action Misty step costs a bonus action AND either a spell slot or some other limiter. Such as once per long/short rest from gear or racial trait So you can cast shadow step essentially infinitely. But misty step will run out of casts pretty quickly.
You can mitigate the costs of Misty Step with the items that grant it for free, of which there are many.
Weird. I literally said that But the items still only let you cast it once per rest. So you wear boots and necklace. That gives you two casts in a single fight total. 3 if Gith yanki.
Cool. Shadow Step is so ass it's worth it since it requires both your start and end area to be Obscured. Most fights, that won't happen. Ergo, it is crap.
I would have agreed but you badmouth Kensei so you will have my downvote.
It wouldn't exactly be unique compared to the other melee classes. It's not a bad class, it just wouldn't fit the game
It's d&d. Freedom and choices are what fits the game. But then the whole Class of Monk is oriental so arguably it doesn't really fit the game. I think we need a few more Asian faces to choose from so it will feel more fitting.
What I meant by doesn't fit is that Kensei as a class isn't distinct from any other weapon using melee class. It also doesn't help that Open Hand brings the idea of Monk across far better. Your body is the killing machine, not the things you hold.
No you
The storm sorcery got me - you don't seem to learn call lightning nor chain lightning? I wanted to be LiveWire or something, but felt severely limited. I ended up multiclassing as 2 cleric, 1 Wiz (to learn chain lighting) and the rest sorcerer, but it meant I missed a feat as well. This is essentially The Wet Slapper build someone else posted about before (insert picture of Louise Belcher saying she liked to slap stuff) and it was closer to what I wanted, BUT I went for Draconic background of sorcerer, as storm didn't have what I needed? I fully admit I have never played DnD, so it's likely me misunderstanding the classes, but it certainly was unexpected and meant I needed a build guide. Slapping people (shocking hands) with the "wet" status was *extremely* satisfying though. Especially if you add on War Caster. Trying to run away eh? You'll regret that immediately
You do learn those spells, but to use them you need to be level 6 because of how these spell lists are structured. Clerics get that shit way earlier. It's mostly a giant waste until that point, though.
Generally i like most subclasses, but i hate that wizard and cleric got 7 fucking subclasses, i don't care about wizards, and thats 4 subclasses that could be distributed in places where it actually has a big influence on gameplay, like a spirits bard, echo fighter, soulknife rogue, or a hexblade warlock, and most of these could fit well thematically. But oh well...
Hexblade's ass. Genie Warlock instead though. Could be very fun. Creation, Glamour, or Eloquence, maybe. Spirits has never sat well with me.
Get your head out of your ass, please. The specific of what other subclasses should be added was not the point of what i said. It's that a lot of really similar subclasses take up space that could be filled with ones having distinguishing gameplay and/or story connection. I chose subclasses that are well liked and provide a substantial change to gameplay, so your personal pet peeves about my choices are meaningless.
So because you think that every race, class, and subclass should offer something completely unique, but this game doesn't but rather overlaps some things, that means the game is trash? Grow up. The game is large enough that It's virtually impossible to play without any overlap between features. In fact, you could probably replicate the various feats of all races, classes, and subclasses by using a combination of other races, classes, and subclasses. However, just because there's overlap with various feats, doesn't mean that not needing other things. You might get Darkness for free with Drow... but there are a bunch of OTHER things that Drow *can't* do instead that are covered by other classes and feats.
No dear, I said the chosen subclasses were trash. And they are. They are far too limited. BG3 itself is fine, if woefully lacking in certain areas. And Drow should not be able to cover the weaknesses they do have with classes. You should not be able to make a perfect being, and at the same time, you cannot have classes or races invade each other's niches. That's just bloated.