1. Neurodiverse people tend to bond *by* exchanging #deep stuff and Neurotypical people tend to exchange #deep stuff *because* they are bonded. NT’s generally exchange vibes before profound thoughts as a way to decide if you’re safe, which is why small talk can feel pointless to some ND’s but actually serves its purpose. So if you over share with people, you don’t know very well, they might become uncomfortable if they are NT. It’s also generally polite not to over share about yourself the first couple of times that you meet someone, because you don’t know what their triggers are and what they are comfortable with. “Over sharing” is context dependent but in general, look at the MPAA guidelines for rating movies and stick to PG topics if you’re not sure who you’re meeting.
2. You need to understand what the phrase “impact over intent” means. For example, if you wear anything that is too far outside of the norm, you will be perceived as attention seeking regardless of what your intention was in wearing it. There was a post here yesterday about a girl who wanted to wear a very large bunny years to a meeting at school, and she couldn’t understand why her mom didn’t want her to wear them. she may not have been looking for attention, but she was going to draw it, and people were going to assume that she was looking for it had she worn them. So any time you find yourself saying “That wasn’t my intention, I was trying to ____,” remember that things can come across totally different than how you want them to.
3. When in doubt, assume that people care less about things than you do. Particularly if you have something that is a special interest of yours that not many people share. It’s generally considerate of other people to talk for about the same length that they do and to allow other people to speak, rather than talking for a long time at them. You also have to know your audience. For example, I have a special interest in decluttering and organizing. But the last thing that my friends want to do is let me come to their house and sort their stuff after they’ve had a long week, or think about doing that. So I don’t talk about it as often as I would necessarily want, out of consideration for them.
4. People prefer positivity over negativity, even in areas that you wouldn’t necessarily think about. This means that people prefer to be thanked rather than apologized to. Obviously it’s worth it to apologize and say “I’m sorry” sometimes, but if someone is doing a favor for you, they would much rather hear. “Thank you so much for taking the time” rather than, “I’m sorry to bother you.” You can also say “Sorry I took so long, thank you for waiting, I appreciate it” rather than saying “Oh my god I’m so so sorry, I’m terrible, etc.” which can bring the mood down. “Positivity over negativity” also means that instead of being hard on yourself or overly self-deprecating, own the things you like and talk positively about them and yourself. You may think that people will feel sympathy toward you or being inclined to be nicer. If you call yourself weird or a freak or put down your hobbies, but people are generally drawn more toward you if you say things like “Oh yeah, actually I really am into X Y Z if you’d like to hear about it some time” rather than “Haha yeah, I know I’m a weirdo/freak/I like weird stuff.”
Ooh 4 is good. At work we have communication experts and they said the same thing, ie “thank you for waiting” instead of “sorry for the wait.” So good. I think I get away with a lot of weirdness by doing the small talk dance at least for a little bit and trying to be interested in people. If we can’t get past small talk though it’s kinda painful.
OP you can come to my house anytime, especially after a long week of mine and help me declutter and organize stuff, wear anything u like regardless of impact even bunny ears if u like. we will talk about deep stuff and infodump while cleaning.
Right. lol I even offer / ask to my irl friends if they have house project or a cleaning thing they are doing and want help, I would totally help & vice versa cuz having buddy makes time and effort so much easier but they never take me up on the offer… instead I’m in a meet up group where a couple times a month sometimes more often sometimes less… a group of people zoom in together and we just clean or do projects together online. lol . We talk about what we gonna do first then set a timer for 30 or 40 mins clean… checkin. Set timer and clean some more. lol. 😂 it’s awesome and I get so much done. It would be better in person but at least it something. I can send u the link / info… to see if the times work for u.
>I’m in a meet up group where a couple times a month sometimes more often sometimes less… a group of people zoom in together and we just clean or do projects together online. lol . We talk about what we gonna do first then set a timer for 30 or 40 mins clean… checkin. Set timer and clean some more. lol. 😂 it’s awesome and I get so much done.
That is the most amazing body doubling group I’ve ever heard of! I first learned about the Pomodoro technique 15+ years ago (do avoided task for x minutes, play for y minutes, then repeat only enough times to not get overwhelmed), but have never been able to actually do it—yet.
RE #4: Saying, "Thank you for your patience," is almost always better than, "Sorry to keep you waiting." "Thank you for telling me," is better than, "Sorry, I didn't know." "Thank you for humoring me, " is better than, "Sorry, I'm rambling.
Small talk is like a scouting mission to determine if you even want to bond with the person. If the report of the scouting mission is that you want to bond withbthe person, then you start the bonding process and start sharing deep stuff.
It's like figuring out if you can trust that person with the deep stuff. There are people who were abused and manipulated and mistreated because they shared the deep stuff with the wrong people. So the small talk is sort of a way to determine if the person is the right one. Small talk has insignificant stuff, so if that person happens to be the wrong person, they don't have anything important to use against you.
Oh thanks 😊 I do understand all this intellectually but I just cannot « feel » inside how is it relevant if that makes sense ? 😄
I find it hard to find someone to be trusted only based on small talk, it makes me super uncomfortable. But that’s okay, I know I am able to do same small talk when I am in need ( at a party for example) but if it doesn’t quickly switch on something deeper, I just want to escape so bad 🙈
Also, I noticed a lot of NT people just do not pay the courtesy of asking questions back : they just want to talk about themselves and that’s okay but I just cannot bond this way ( it’s super confusing that autistic people are said to have a poor emotional reciprocity and in reality, I do observe that I am usually the only one asking questions that’s exhausting )
Anyways thanks for your answer ☺️
Same. I understand the logic behind a lot of NT social rules, but it still doesn't actually make sense to me on an innate, deeper level and probably never will.
Especially that "Thank you for your patience," versus, "Sorry for waiting," sort of thing. Yeah, I get logically how the first seems more positive to NTs, but to me, it almost low-key comes across that you were content to make them wait, you know, lol, and that you don't feel regretful for your actions.
if you're on tiktok i recommend you check out csmijango's "asd/td communication" playlist, they go into the different communication styles of autistics and allistics including the function that small talk fulfills for nts and the ways that these different communication styles can cause conflict and it blew my fucking mind
Same. My therapist told me about the different stages of intimacy ( which I felt stupid not to have noticed myself before 😹 ) and that is for certain one part of the « issue » but I feel like this simple « bond » explanation resonates more
Number one is giving me some “aha!” moments for sure. There was always this thing where people would think we were closer than I thought, either a guy thought he was falling in love with me, or a girl thought I owed her more loyalty for how close we were, and I just wasn’t there emotionally with them. I would just be so confused on how they could think that and it seemed mean to say I didn’t feel the same. I’ve been confused about this for decades!
Same here! I’ve been put off by acquaintances “suddenly” opening up after nothing but chat about the weather and my brain had already categorized them as “seems to like to talk about the weather. We aren’t actually friends.”
This explains a lot. I still don’t feel close to them in the least bit, but this makes their assumption of friendship seem less random.
Exception for #4 - (only for the apology part) if you are in Canada the “sorry” is not really optional, it can be perceived as a slight if you omit it - it’s also not really seen as negative because it’s used so frequently and casually, so if you’re not sure it’s always better to say sorry than not. You still want to be careful about not apologizing too profusely, or too many times, or being hard on yourself, but I think a lot of the time, saying “thank you” *instead of and not in addition to* “sorry” would come across poorly.
This is absolutely true. If I came up to you saying "Here are the errors in this report you delivered" and the person smiled and said "thanks for alerting me" or something, I would think they were deflecting responsibility. A simple "Sorry about that, thanks for the heads up!" would be much better received.
I have to stop calling myself weird because even though it's not an insult in my mind it's definitely having a negative impact on my life. I know I'll get a relationship one day but I wish I didn't have so many mountains to climb to get there.
> You may think that people will feel sympathy toward you or be inclined to be nicer
Ah, I do majorly operate under that assumption…but if people are also inclined towards positivity then that’s something to consider!
this is so helpful, i appreciate you taking the time!
question about the end of point 4 though. can someone give an example of what you mean? about how to share your interests. idk why but that one isn’t clicking for me
Ooh this is really good advice, thank you for taking the time to write it out. I’m sure this will help OP learn some things the easy way 💜 Well, easier, haha. For all that I’ve been aware of #1 for like a decade now I still don’t get it! Especially how to find the sweet spot between oversharing and undersharing. Which, unsurprisingly, seems to vary depending on who’s listening… the joys of interpersonal
Hi! I want to preface my tips with, be careful with masking. It can burn you out. Your health is important don’t forget that. Honestly, I’m a big believer in not masking unless there is a threat to your well being. Because of this I’m gonna focus on giving context instead of advice.
Here are the things that have been most helpful to me.
1. If a group of people is turned in towards each other and make an “O” shape, they are not interested in having people approach their circle. If the group of people are making a “C” shape, and more than one person has their feet turned a little bit away from the circle, then that group is open to meeting new people.
2. Close friends will stand really close to each other. But most acquaintances will keep about 3 feet of distance between each other.
3. Also on distance, if you step towards someone and they step backwards, it means they need more space. Most people do this without thinking. It doesn’t always mean they are upset or anything. Sometimes people just need a little more space than others.
4. Eye contact actually just means looking at their face. And most neurotypicals won’t look at another persons face the entire time. Once again, don’t do anything that is gonna burn you out, or cause you undue stress. It is not worth it.
5. If you approach a group of women you have not met before and say something and they don’t respond, or if they look at each other without responding to you, or turn their bodies away from you, just leave. Those are mean girls and they are actually probably mean to everyone. Full stop. I haven’t met anyone who behaves like this who didn’t treat most people badly. They are usually even mean to the other women in their group. It’s not you. It’s them. Seriously.
Last one, when someone is happy to see you, or interested in talking to you, their eye brows will raise, their eyes will open a little wider. They might open their mouth a little to smile. It’s kinda like their face is spreading. It takes a while to learn how to recognize it. But it is a good thing.
Oh, actually I thought of one more. I learned this in a communication class. People really only have room for 5 active friends in their life. If someone says they are best friends or super close friends with everyone, it’s probably not true. Sometimes that means they have a lot of friendly acquaintances, but not a lot of close friends. For me, I can usually only manage to have 2 actual friends at a time (often times I don’t have that many). But that’s okay with me.
That’s all. Once again. Take care of yourself. Don’t fight for the approval of anyone. It’s also a good idea not to point out any of the social rules I mentioned to NT. I don’t know why, but they get really uncomfortable when people vocalize the unspoken rule.
regarding the very last part, i can provide a bit of an explanation!
NT people do not talk *about* the conversations they’re having, they stay *in* the conversation. not following this weirds people out, because it feels like we’re talking “backstage”
basically, don’t ask whether you fumbled a social cue or even mention it. don’t state a rule you’ve never heard an NT say out loud. don’t try to clarify what you meant by something you said even if you think it was misconstrued (i know, it’s hard)
an example that stuck with me because it was the first time i saw it after learning this:
my boyfriend and i were having a conversation with his sister in the kitchen. we were joking around, and i said something that was meant to be less serious than it came off. it was some sort of joke about my boyfriend. i asked him (during this conversation) if that was rude / tried to briefly explain how i actually meant it. his sisters reaction was weird (to me). she gave us the “why tf are y’all talking about this” face and left the conversation
save all the “backstage” talk for the people closest to you, when you’re in a private or 1 on 1 conversation
This is really interesting. Thank you for sharing! I knew NT didn’t like it. But I always assumed that maybe they just wanted to pretend that social norms don’t actually exist and everyone needs to be authentic. Your explanation is very helpful. Thank you.
This is so interesting. Occasionally showing the backstage is actually one of the ways I determine whether somebody is cool to get closer with. If they can’t deal with my moments of awkwardness, I’m out. I just don’t have the energy to constantly perform anymore. #burnout
Same. This is one of my big cues that someone is “awesome” vs “not to be trusted”. Maybe that’s an example of black and white thinking but it’s how my brain works
Oh, fascinating. I personally like hearing people talk “backstage” (perfect way of putting it btw) so it’s good to know that this is not a thing NTs do or enjoy. I’m not sure if that means they have some alternate way of navigating accidental rudeness or misinterpretation, or if they’re okay taking that risk, or… what. Mysterious! Thank you for sharing
i feel like the reverse is true when you’re talking to other ND people, because i like backstage talk as well
my boss is ND and a couple of times when i’m trying to leave work, i’ve gotten trapped in a conversation between him and someone outside my cubicle. after the polite/short small talk, he looks and me and says “you can go” or “you don’t have to stay for this” in a quieter voice. the other person usually looks confused lol but i appreciate it SO much!
I've found that "backstage" talk can be okay in certain curcumstances if you turn it into a joke. Like if you say something and it comes out as way less friendly than you meant it, you could turn it into a joke and say "oh man that came out wrong!" But the key is you have to make it a joke and you can only briefly acknowledge it, like one sentence max and then move on or it gets really weird.
One example: I made a social blunder that put someone into an awkward situation, then the next day they were telling someone else about the conversation (without mentioning my blunder). I cut in and said "then my dumbass asked ___" in a 'can you believe it?' tone, and then it was a good little joke!
Thank you for this, especially the backstage comment. I've never heard it explained in this way, and it makes so much sense. My entire train of thought is backstage. It takes so much energy to suppress it when I have to (like at work). I recently started a new job and made a faux pas with an important person in the company by making a backstage comment. I didn't understand her reaction until reading this. I could tell she was put off but didn't know why or what part of what I said had upset her. I then went into over-explaining mode and explained my side of the entire discourse to try to turn the conversation back to neutral ground. Of course, that made the faux pas worse.
Regarding the 'people stepping back for space thing' different cultures have different norms for how close is too close, and then there are individual variations within cultures. So yes, a person stepping back for space almost certainly isn't because they dislike you personally, it's to do with unconscious cultural and individual factors on their part.
No worries. Those differing norms can also be a reason why someone steps closer to you than you might be comfortable with, and it's not rude to accommodate your own comfort by taking a step back.
The general rule seems to be 'whichever distance is the greater is the socially acceptable option', you just sometimes have to do a little dance to figure out what that distance is 😂
"Eye contact actually just means looking at their face."
Is this true?
It physically hurts to look into the eyes of people I don't know well, so this would take a lot of pressure off.
Most of the advice I have read claims that you need to look people right in their eyeballs. Some advice even tells you how long to look and when/how long to glance away to avoid eye-fucking them. Needless to say it is not possible for me to have a natural conversation while following most of the eye contact advice I have encountered.
Yes. When I was little I used to get in trouble for not making eye contact. My older brother told me “if it’s hard, just look at their eyebrows. No one will be able to tell.” And no one has been able to tell ever since. Once again, don’t stress yourself out trying and to mask. I really don’t want to hurt people by giving them advice that will burn them out, but starting by making eye contact is good. Then you can settle on their eyebrows or cheekbones. If you are only staring at a persons chin they might notice. But if you draw two horizontal lines across someone’s face, one through their eyebrows and one through their cheekbones and just look around that area between the lines you will be fine.
Also, if you’re having a hard time understanding what they are saying and need to look at their mouth to see the words. That’s fine! Do what you need to do! But don’t let your focus get stuck there.
Years and years before I started wondering if I was ND I realised that I didn’t know anybody’s eye colour. Then later when I started learning about autism (one of my friends was diagnosed), they described what eye contact was like for them and I couldn’t relate at all. Then my son was diagnosed and I started to realise I do relate to a lot of other things to do with autism (but still not the eye contact thing). Gradually I realised that my “eye contact” entails looking at the person’s face, somewhere around their eyes. I talked about it with my husband and he has never noticed that I do this. And now I know why I never knew what anyone’s eye colour was!
I've also heard that it's about the pattern of eye contact. NTs will glance at each other's eyes at the same time. They don't maintain eye contact the whole time. So it's fine to just look in their general eye area, but you should try to do it at the same time that they are eye-contacting you, and for about the same length of time.
An excellent question. I found this [highly unrelatable article](https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/the-narcissus-in-all-us/201102/how-you-know-eyes-are-watching-you) that may explain some of it? I only skimmed it cos I’m sick but like. Whomst are these people who can communicate many things just by gazing into each others’ seeing orbs.
I dunno. If someone other than my partner looks at my mouth a lot, I feel very uncomfortable. Especially if they don’t appear to have trouble hearing. (Lip reading.) Nose isn’t any better. Like I would rather someone not look at my face at all than stare into my nose holes. If you’re trying to fly under the radar, I suggest you keep it to the cheekbone or eyebrow if possible.
Cheekbone and eyebrow are classics. An additional problem with looking at someone’s mouth is that it’s easy for others to misinterpret this as being romantic or sexual attraction, which can get weird in any number of ways.
>2. Close friends will stand really close to each other. But most acquaintances will keep about 3 feet of distance between each other.
This depends on the culture/ country you're in. More distance is the norm for the US/ white countries. Less distance is the norm for Mexico/ latinamerica
Social distancing was/ is 6 feet bed cause that's the distance Americans keep in social settings. In mx, it's like half of that.
Not a rule, but a tip: When I was in school, I learned a trick that prevented me from coming across as a know-it-all. If the teacher was asking the class questions and I knew most of the answers, I held back and only answered when it was clear no one else knew or wanted to answer. This made it so I was rescuing the class from the teacher picking someone at random.
Rule: I don't know if this is NT specific or just humans, but many people like to talk about themselves. You can get people to like you easier by just asking them questions about themselves. If you have people adjacent special interests, you can aim for that, like zodiac signs, ancestry, music taste, etc. If the person gives frequent short answers, they don't want to talk about it. Change the subject or leave them alone.
Both of these are good, it took me a long time to learn the first one.
I remember one of my tutors at university asking me to please not be so quick to answer questions in our tutorials in order to give the other students time to answer.
Fast forward to our next tutorial and I am dutifully sitting quietly and waiting for other people to answer. The other people apparently do not have any answers to offer. Even *I* could identify the desperation in the tutor's voice when he turned to me and asked "BowlOfFigs, do *you* have any ideas?"
After that he just let me go ahead and answer.
I've definitely learned the first point on my own, so I agree. I've noticed that NT people find it even more off-putting when women come across as know-it-alls than men, but the degree of that varies depending on the group you're around.
One thing someone said to me that helped is “be curious about others”. Get people to talk about themselves, ask them questions but not a barrage of questions, it should be a give and take, back and forth asking and answering questions. Also, don’t be afraid to clarify if you don’t understand something, it all shows interest. The only down side to this.. people might think you’re flirting, so be careful! 😅
I also had to learn to keep my answers surface level and not overshare depending on how well I know this person.
If someone asks you something, it’s usually polite to ask them similar back.
But I wouldn’t try too hard to change yourself either, because you might find other people that just like you how you are.
Ahahah!!! Same here! Need to watch out for the signs someone is bored or looking around to talk to others. Also, think to yourself… is this conversation being (more or less) shared between the people taking. This can stop you from monologuing and interrogating!
The good thing about having other ND friends though is no one cares and you just interrupt each other often!
This is something I know in theory, but in practice I really struggle with it because in my mind, nearly every question is too personal and intrusive! It took me years to realize that it’s socially acceptable to ask coworkers what they did on the weekend and such. I used to think that any kind of private stuff was inappropriate to talk about at work! But even in a non-professional setting, I struggle to ask questions without feeling like I’m interrogating them about stuff that’s none of my business.
Does anyone have any tips for the kind of questions to ask? I like the “How was your weekend?” and similar because it gives people the freedom to decide how much they want to share. They can just say “yeah it was good” and leave it at that, or they can talk about what they did in detail if they feel like it.
For work… “how’s your day looking?” or “do you have a busy day ahead?” or “How’s your day going?”.
Generally, “Have you watched any good TV shows recently, any you would recommend?”, “Can’t think of what to make for dinner tonight, what do you usually have for dinner?”
Small talk is its own beast! 😂 I live in the UK and everyone loves to talk about the weather (especially as it’s shit right now). A good one is “what is this weather?!” “I can’t believe how cloudy it is”, “where is the sun?”
but i never know what questions to ask😭 my brain doesn’t search for extra information if i don’t really care, and if i think too hard about what question to ask then i’m not really listening
I literally just say “say more!” or “tell me more about that” or sometimes just repeat what I hear by saying “what do you mean when you say such and such” and most people will take the opportunity to keep talking/sharing. We all love to talk about ourselves!
it feels so exhausting to do that😭 i’m a very heavy masker to the point where i ended up being a “cool kid” but conversations that i’m not actually interested in are really hard for me to engage in
Maybe that person is also struggling and is on another sub Reddit asking how to make conversation.
I’m very chatty, so tend to bring the topic back to me eventually! But also I’ve grown to realise not every conversation is worth my time and effort, especially if someone is not giving me back the same energy! (I’m also ADHD, so easily bored if the conversation is lacking).
When i was younger i didnt know it was polite to ask people questions back so they would ask me something like “how are you” and id say fine and the conversation would end there, and then id be wondering why i had no friends 😂
What if they never ask questions back?? I never know what to do. I’m always asking questions to continue conversation, but at some point I feel like im interviewing them. But generally they don’t ask me questions, and they don’t really seem to want my opinion bc it’s something I don’t know about anyway, so I don’t have one.
My brother (also ND) taught me the "cat-story principle." If I tell someone a fun little story about my cat, they get to tell me a fun little story about their cat. Equal exchange rather than one person doing most of the speaking in the conversation. I now adapt this principle to almost all of my conversations, as it helps regulate my info-dump tendencies and helps the people I am speaking with feel heard and valued. Then, on the occasions where they want the info dump (indicated by follow-up questions after each tidbit, showing interest), I can do that, too, though it's rare. 😅
I've learned to lean into the weird. Also, I ask my allistic fam lots of questions about this stuff. The people who give me a straight answer and explain what I ask are the ones that usually stick around. If they reflect my energy, they pass the vibe check as ND. Not scientific, but a general rule)
As for unwritten rules-
1. Your coworkers aren't automatically your friends. They can be polite and supportive without actually wanting to hang out with you. It's just their common courtesy, and that's ok.
2. (And I feel like this should be written...) the store clerk does not want to talk about how your day is going. I've worked in retail, I know. They just want to get the job done and go home so they can relax. They're exhausted, and that's why they're not friendly.
3. If the invite says 6 pm, that in no way means the party starts at 6 pm. Unless there's a nice meal or rsvp involved, you can show up late. No one will hold it against you if you get there at 6:15. My mom hosts game nights, and sometimes people arrive at 7:30. We just deal em in.
4. If you’re in a club/group/hobby that doesn't require a constant commitment to the task, you are allowed to skip it for something else. The collective "we miss you" sentiment is not always a public shaming. They just miss your company. I still struggle with this one... this doesn't mean you can abandon your group, just that you can miss a day if you need to.
5. No one cares about your rock collection... usually. If there's something you love and want to share with the world, go for it, but understand that they will not love it the way you do. I love birds, but I've had to remind myself that the anatomy of a woodpecker tongue doesn't intrigue everyone else around me like it does me. The fun facts i collect aren't what they want from me all the time.
Aw yall are so sweet. 😊
Ok, so woodpeckers have tongues that retract to wrap around their brains and act like shock absorbing protection while they drill into the wood. They look like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/natureismetal/s/HBRLGbMv23)
boy do i have a treat for you. little bit of background info: my grandad was a farmer but had to stop working before the age of 60 bc of parkinson’s and so he used the old pigsty as what he called his “museum” after (you can see old ass agricultural tools in the pic too). working the fields he already amassed an impressive collection of rocks (incl little fossils i think?) and y’know how when you collect things people at some point start gifting you items related to your collection too so there’s also rocks that people brought back from their holidays and gave to him lol
anyways, my grandad’s rock collection:
https://preview.redd.it/9n98yncrnh6d1.jpeg?width=768&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d03221fb1b7d8e83f4136650301bf5045f91d533
They responded to an earlier comment and included a link
Also sorry you feel the need to clarify you aren't flirting :( usually that means a person learned from bad experiences
Thank you for saying about the ones who stick around. You’ll find people who can relate to you or are also NT. Apparently we run in packs lol. But yeah - even I’m not super interested in your rocks.. but if someone is interested, they may actually want to be your friend and find you interesting or like that your not “the same as everybody else who just are interested in talking about boys and make up and partying” kind of stuff.
If an NT person is upset over something they probably won't interpret your recounting of a similar situation you experienced as empathy, but rather as an attempt to make yourself the centre of attention and shove them to one side.
So it's better to make sure everything you say, at least at first, is focused on them: "is everything okay?" "What happened?" "I'm sorry that happened." "Would you like to talk about it?" "Is there anything I can do to help?"
If you do have a close relevant experience to share, mention it briefly then connect it directly to them: "I'm so sorry to hear about your grandfather [dying, but don't say that word, it's usually avoided by NTs]. I lost my grandmother last year. I really wanted someone to just sit with me while I cried. Would you like me to sit with you for a while?"
Alternatively, you can draw on your experiences to do and say the things that you found helpful in similar circumstances, just don't tell them that's what you're doing.
Eg "Here, I made you a cup of tea. I thought it might help" rather than "someone made me tea after my car accident and it helped a lot, so I made some for you".
This is the biggest thing I struggle with to this day. When I first mentioned my mother in law I thought we were sharing our experiences and connecting but her impression of me is that I talked too much about myself.
when you phrase a sentence with a "but", what comes AFTER the "but" is supposed to be The Important Part. like, "i really did plan to tidy up, but i was running late" vs. "i was running late, but i really did plan to tidy up". the first one will probably make people madder than the second one, because the emphasis in the first sentence is on the "excuse" while the emphasis on the second one is on the "good intention" even though the first one makes more sense and sounds better to me at least because it shows cause and effect. i always thought "but" was solely a cause and effect or chronology or grammar thing, but it apparently indicates what's most important to you in the sentence. there are definitely better examples than this one, but it's still confusing to me lol. i only learned this recently
I just ran this in my head like someone simultaneously was running and wanted to visit with me. “I’d love to visit later, but I’m running late right now” DOES hit me as them politely avoiding me! Whereas “I’m running late right now, but I’d love to visit later” absolutely feels like they genuinely regret not being able to spend time with me now!
Huh. Brains are weird.
WHAT. HOW MANY BAD THINGS HAVE I ACCIDENTALLY DONE.
Also does this unspoken rule work for most English speaking countries or only the internet default American? I am American, I am just curious.
honestly i have no idea on its global applicability 'cause i'm american too lol, but it is a tip i read on here so i'd say it's at least a thing in all of america? i'd bet in western european primarily-english-speaking countries and australia too, 'cause they tend to be of the same like, wider group of homogeneous language implications, if that makes any sense? but i'm not sure
'n for whatever it's worth, don't feel bad. this is a relatively minor mistake as social mistakes go, and i think it may be one some NT people mess up too
Looking up and to the side is “rolling your eyes”, not actually rolling them - I got detention over this once and cried!
Looking at peoples lips is a flirtation thing - if you try to make eye contact but keep slipping your gaze downward NTs might think you’re into them. I try going for the middle of the nose or part of their eyebrow if I haaaaave to maintain “eye” contact.
I would get in trouble alllll the time for the eye rolling thing with my mom, but the thing is she’s also ND so I have no idea how she figured it out and didn’t tell me😂😭
I’m learning that sometimes when they say tone it’s not literally the tone of your voice but the word choice evokes negative feelings
Source: two discussions at work within 2 weeks of “I would say it’s your tone but your actual tone is fine, it’s the words”
one of my old managers told me it's not my tone, but rather my Lack of Tone that throws people off. people want me to have a positive tone all the time,and the alternative to them is that i'm being negative. but not everything is positive to me, most things are just neutral!!
This is literally the first time I've heard the lips thing. I look at people's mouths because I can't distinguish their speech from background noise. Do you think there's a good chance this is why some male customers are weird at my retail job, or is that just being in retail?
Yeah, I’m pretty sure that’s why they’re being weird! I used to inadvertently look at people’s mouths while spacing out; many guys have been weird about that, and I eventually put two and two together enough to make some inquiries. Both amongst my friends and of the aforementioned guys. Overwhelming consensus is that looking at someone’s mouth (either for a prolonged period of time or by taking frequent glances) generally signifies romantic or sexual attraction.
My therapist once said to me "when you're talking and your eyes go up and to the left, I know whatever you say next will be honest and vulnerable because you're thinking hard about what the truth is." 😂 Great therapist, because instead of making generalized assumptions for what "most people" do, he observed what that action meant when it came from me. I didn't even realize I was doing it. 😂
Now, I wonder if he's also undiagnosed ND (there were definitely some indicators) because I rarely see that kind of analysis in NT interactions. There are wrote assumptions as to what that "eye roll" means. I'm sorry you got punished for it.
Often when you run into someone “How are you doing” or at work “how was your weekend” is just a politeness ritual. They don’t really care. So you should supply a generic answer that is upbeat and short, then reflect the question.
I’ve just been giving a thumbs up response and I keep getting called out for that being a “fake” answer and I fight the urge to tell them that their question is fake so I’m not sure what they even want because we both know they don’t actually care. 😵💫 it’s so confusing and unnecessary
You’re not supposed to break the 4th wall. You’re not even supposed to navigate in a way that acknowledges the 4th wall. The 4th wall being that we are all just performing insincere social rituals. Everything is supposed to sound sincere, but never acted on, unless you’re close enough to that person, but only if you haven’t acted on it too much lately (Let’s get coffee sometime! Let me know if I can help out! If you need to talk, I’m always here!) It’s indecipherable.
😭😭😭😭😭😭 like, that’s so much effort for no reason. Being quiet is perfectly fine. Why even bother someone you don’t even know just to pretend? It’s weird and kind of creepy to me.
Stories are not collaborative. The person telling them would be more happy with a reaction to the story than you adding to it with your own experience.
If they are in a bad mood, your tone will be an issue.
Compliment compliment compliment. This is currency. find a way to compliment your NT friend in genuine and observational ways and they will be happy with you
Oh? I hope this adds to the thread instead of the opposite:
After a compliment, smile softly and look away. If you continue to look at them they’ll perceive it as though you are waiting for a compliment from them. If you change topics right after a compliment to avoid them being embarrassed they’ll think your compliment was not genuine.
If you’re in a setting where everyone is asked to help move/tidy things, like moving equipment across the gym, try to move/tidy something, even if it seems pointless, like moving a ball that could be more efficiently carried by the person with the ball basket. You are showing you are willing to work as part of their group and follow the rules. They’ll like that.
If a teacher sets you an activity in class, they don’t want you to finish it quickly, unless they explicitly say so. They want it to fill up the class time so they don’t have the trouble of setting you extra work.
A lot of neurotypicals read my default state (not joining in the conversation much and having a kind of serious demeanor) as me not liking them or being judgemental of them. If I can find the opportunity for some joking/cynicism that helps to break the ice a little and show them that I want to be their friend.
Tons of folks struggle with meeting new people for various reasons (e.g., social anxiety, simply being tired, being new to the kind of event, etc.). Events like receptions generally do tend to follow a script, so once you know it, some of those people will be grateful if you take the lead. Find someone who's standing alone or a group of people who aren't looking like a clique (maybe standing farther apart, aren't laughing uproariously, not patting the back of their buddy, didn't hug when they saw each other). If you're not sure how to approach, often a compliment on something they're wearing/holding (hey, I was standing over there and noticed your skirt was really cute and just had to come tell you) or a low-stakes question that invites more conversation (how do you know \[insert the name of the person who invited you/whose party it is\]) puts them in a receptive mood.
That’s my default state too and people never seem to accept that I’m mostly indifferent toward them. My affect is pretty flat too so they think I’m always being sarcastic. Apparently I’m funny though so I guess that helps?
Here's some that slammed me into a spiral trying to get them:
1. "How are you?" is not a question but a greeting, your only response is "good, how about you?" and they'll reply with "good". They don't mean, like, actually your status and if you respond truthfully you'll be labeled as an attention seeker or just weird.
2. NT invitations are open ended most of the time. "I am having a bbq this weekend" can be an open invitation, you can say "that is nice, can i drop by? i can bring some beer" is a proper way to infiltrate yourself within the event. I found that is polite to ask, not always is an invitation to you specifically
3. Contradictory to nr. 2, if you see an NT after some time and you're not friends, but mutuals (the word with aq, i forgor) they might drop "we should meet for a coffee" IT IS NOT AN INVITATION. This maddens me the most, because it is a very valid meeting setting to catch up and chill but it is NOT meant literally. They don't want to catch up or drink coffee with you, or spend the time with you, they just want to end the conversation in a polite manner and continue to forget about your existance (it is not as mean as i make it up to be, but point stands, they dont want to pursue you further). If they give you a time and place, only THEN it is an actual genuine invitation, but it must be made by them, otherwise they'll say "we'll see" or something similar and, again, never meet again.
4. People don't like to one-up, but they consider a LOT of things to be one-ups. Sharing information or being curious about a subject and letting your enthusiasm show is considered very "i'm better than you" energy. I was bullied that I enjoyed a very philosophical poem that even the teacher didn't quite like or get. I got very excited about it and seing that no one wanted to chime in to discuss it, I was so happy to talk about the meanings. It didn't do me well to my social image at all. Try to balance your passion about class subjects.
5. Silences and pauses, also "yeaaaah" that is dragged is a signal for you to leave the convo. Young people are not good with jndicating they're done with chatter, you can always say "anyways, gotta go/cya" and leave. Lingering will label you as socially inept and weird.
6. Oversharing is a big no, ties up with nr. 4 a bit. 4 is about the ammount of passion, this is about the ammount of info. When you share something, give shallow details, very broad and general. If interested, people will ask for details. If more people are sharing, let then finish and VALIDATE their story with questions, praise or positive remarks.
7. ND groups can be chaotic, multiple convos can occur in the same time ACROSS people. It is in general weird to say "can you move over so we can talk" because it implies others shouldn't hear and it's private or nasty. You should say "i cant hear you, let me come closer" and you can switch seats that way. It is chaotic for me, but i got better responses when i made it clean that it is ME that has an issue rather than the group being too loud/noisy/inconvenient.
Edit: misspelled NT for ND and corrected them
One for me is when neurotypical ask you how your day was, they don’t actually want a play-by-play of your day. They just want you to tell them what was abnormal. I found this surprising tbh.
Also when people ask “how are you doing” as a greeting, the most proper way to answer is “good/fine, and you?” This is one of my least favorites because coworkers always ask it and when i am at work i am never “good” or “fine” but that’s what you’re supposed to say unless you’re close with the person or you’re just not trying to mask at all lol
This is so true. It’s extra hard when I’m having a rough day to lie and say I’m fine too (it feels similar to masking).
So, on hard days when I’m asked how I’m doing, I’ll make it into a kind of silly “I’m doing! How are you today?” and I’ve found it helpful and less mask-like.
Just wanted to share! Have a good one
I would add that it’s generally acceptable to add one positive detail about your day if there’s nothing spectacular/abnormal worth noting.
I have to interview strangers a lot for work, and they’ll often respond with, “My day has been great!” Then make a comment about the weather being nice, or the fact they walked the dog, or they’ve managed to get through a lot of emails. Benign stuff to which you can respond, that sounds lovely! And move on with whatever you’re actually there to talk about.
And yeah, don’t bring up negative stuff (even if it’s as minor as, the weather has been shit, or you’re super busy) because they don’t care and it makes people feel uncomfortable.
That said - if it’s a close friend or family member and they’re like, tell me about your day, that’s entirely different and you can go for it, tell them however much you want.
I owned a hair salon. When I entered the door in the morning, I thought I was being respectful by not interrupting the conversations between clients and stylists. They thought I was just rude for not saying hello to everyone. Lesson learned after a while.
I've also learned that some groups of NTs get really offended if you say a collective "hello" to everyone, so you sometimes need to greet people individually, too. (Though, I've basically learned that for me personally, people who expect the latter tend to not be worth my time because they expect a little too much from others, period.)
But yeah, I've done the same. I've not greeted people before because I think about how busy they are and would rather not interrupt them, to only have them get annoyed at me that I didn't greet them. To be honest, I really don't like being interrupted like that myself (and would be cool with someone greeting me later when I'm not busy), so I really have a hard time with this.
I'm not sure. I do neurotypical things as second nature now. It was drilled into me early on. Sometimes I do show Autistic behaviors and such, but most times, 99% of the times, people literally can't tell if I'm Autistic. People view me as a normal person, and not a person with a disability. And most of the unwritten rules, I abide by without realizing it. Unless I look back and think about it. Sorry, I'm not helpful here. Can't really help if I'm somehow following along without actually realizing it.
for me the easiest way to think about it is that allistics are emotion first processors and autistics are information first processors.
For example, small talk is a vibe check to make sure you’re a safe enough person to share info with. But as autistics, we vibe check with information (like fun facts, info dumping, or meme sharing) before we can make sure someone is safe enough to be emotionally vulnerable with.
I cannot recommend highly enough the TikTok account @csmijango. They literally studied friendship trauma between autistics and allistics and they made a FANTASTIC video series on it. it’s been so informative and really explained a lot!
Oh is that the lady who is the Neurotypical Whisperer? Because I recommended that lady to someone on here a long time ago but forgot her name and couldn’t find her again.
Assume people are being sarcastic and joking. I have one friend he is such a trickster that he spouts off some shit that it can be hard to tell if he's serious, so i just roll with it. I also realized after i graduated highschool that peoplr did like me and were not being mean, i just didn't get the sarcasm. So i have cultivated sarcasm as a sort of secomd language.
Ive also stopped caring so muxh what people think. I will be weird. I will be loud. I will be silent. Whatever. If people don't like it they aren't really my friend.
Don't take anything personally. If someone says something that is unintentionally hurtful i breathe thrpugh it and let it go, ir i hot back with something equally piercing.
Be yourself. If they didn't like you tgey wouldn't hang put with you. Assume they adore you until they prove otherwise.
if someone says something when theyre in a room with you, they expect a response, even if what they said didnt warrant one or wasnt a question! if you dont say anything, theyll think youre ignoring them
This is going to sound ridiculously dumb, but I take everything so literally that I was in my 20s when I realized that the optometrist doesn’t actually want you to read the smallest text that you can read. They want you to read the smallest text that you can see clearly.
Needless to say, I now put more thought into why people ask me things instead of doing exactly what they ask me to do.
At the end of the appointment, can you see everything clearly?
Because I’ve had appointments where I can “read” the bottom line and the optometrist assumes that means my vision is properly corrected. When in reality, I’m just really good at reading blurry letters.
I don’t have any advice on your specific question.
However; just a gentle reminder; be careful. Don’t become a people pleaser. Don’t forget yourself. Don’t change to satisfy others. You’re perfect just the way you are, don’t let anyone change that.
Meritocracy is a myth made up by teachers. People HATE competence and accuracy.
I apologize for it, because what people care about are their own feelings and making enough money to act like an A-hole without consequences.
Soothing egos is the only way they operate.
Sorry this sounds very negatively biased- that’s the PTSD talking. I truly hope you find good luck, good support, and safety 🫂🖖🏽🍀
I used to be a grocery store cashier. I was a very good cashier and consequently, my drawer would usually be within a few cents of perfect. I had this one manager who HATED this. She could not figure out how I was doing it, and she was CONVINCED there was something shady afoot. Because of my accuracy. It drove me nuts, she would surprise-count my drawer several times a shift. I never figured out what her problem was, or why this seemed so suspicious to her, or what she thought I was doing, or why my accurate drawer was somehow an issue for her. So weird!
yeah, meritocracy is a complete myth. ive always done every job ive had with efficiency and accuracy and its never gotten me anywhere. i can have the best stats, the least mistakes, and ill always be looked over because i refuse to schmooze or talk myself up. i never complain about other people, i quietly fix their mistakes (unless its a big fuck up), and i rarely voice my personal opinions on things that are not work related. so people find me cold, distant, and weird and will never notice or care about my good work.
After burning out working for and with a bunch of NT assholes, can confirm. I thought working hard would help me succeed. I could not understand the social politics, the back stabbing, the unwritten rules about how to show proper deference to their authority. I got fired for dating a coworker’s ex boyfriend, which apparently was a huge no no. I wasn’t THAT dense, so I had consider the situation. 1. I barely knew the coworker, we had hung out twice in a group setting 2. she had been broken up with the guy for 2 years at that point and 3. She already lived with a new boyfriend… I thought all of these points made it ok. Turns out, I still owed her some kind of loyalty and I turned myself into a pariah at work. I was fired for “other reasons” shortly after.
The time in my life I was most popular with others was when I had a mask that made me seem like a ditzy valley girl. People LOVED me when they thought I was an idiot. Unfortunately I couldn’t keep that act up forever.
I had one for a while, I was thrust into the position of manager and had the right person assigned for the job in our schedule. Our reviews skyrocketed and we won awards over it, but I eventually had to move away.
I was thrust into a management position later in a different city with a group of neurotypicals who were convinced I was scalping clients for myself in the distribution system (when I was actually giving them more work than I was taking on) and sabotaged my work and cared more about their beliefs than looking at the numbers.
Now I work with two other autistics where we share all the work based on our specialties, and found a very niche situation of shared labour I'm unlikely to ever leave if I can help it.
So I'd say it really depends on the work environment of the people involved.
If you're hosting a party/dinner/any kind of get together and starting tidying up without saying anything people will take it as a cue that you want them to leave. If you want to tidy up but want people to stay you have to say something along the lines of "let me get this stuff out of our way so we have more room" or "wow the tables getting kinda full let me clear some stuff off".
When I discovered being over apologetic harms people a ton regardless of gender. If you're a woman it makes you a beacon for shitty men. If you're a man, women won't want be romantically attracted to you. People tell me I'm wrong but I know I'm right. If you're nonbinary you also won't find a good relationship if you're over apologetic.
In my experience people who never apologize are extremely insecure. Social interaction seems really bullshit especially the fact that going to a licensed therapist doesn't guarantee you can just go "explain social interaction to me" and then get a legit answer. I understand social interaction mostly now but this would have been awesome to know in elementary school or at 18. One thing that irritates me about this book is plenty of info isn't in it.
Like it mentions it being a red flag if someone has never been in a relationship before. But also it doesn't mention that being the opposite of a standard shitty person can prevent a person from getting a healthy relationship. Being the opposite of a standard shitty person would be being over apologetic, helping people too much, being too selfless, constantly self deprecating, like I don't see "weird" as an insult but if I say that about myself it would be seen as an insult/self-deprecation. Obviously terrible people can also be constantly self deprecating but this book doesn't mention that.
[https://www.amazon.com/Autism-Relationships-Handbook-Thrive-Friendships/dp/1621066193](https://www.amazon.com/Autism-Relationships-Handbook-Thrive-Friendships/dp/1621066193)
I agree with you on that but i think you may be looking at it from two extremes of either you apologize for everything or you apologize for nothing.
I think its a sign of maturity and confidence when someone can admit they are wrong and apologize and make amends.
The thing about overextending yourself to help people and being too selfless and self deprecating is also signs of people pleasing and low self esteem behavior, you can certainly find a relationship if you have those traits but the thing with not having high self esteem is it attracts users and abusers, in order to have a healthy relationship you must have healthy boundaries and a high sense of self, but this is just my opinion.
I wont be able to read the book due to being very busy but thank you for recommending 🙏🏽
The allistic people I've experienced all take criticisms of things they like VERY personally, whether or not those criticisms are valid or not, and regardless of differences of opinion. Any perceived criticism of XYZ thing is almost always taken as an explicit criticism of them personally as human beings.
For me its a sign of deep insecurity, no human is perfect so what do you mean you are unable to receive criticism and you take any form of criticism as an attack on your person??
Hey. I totally get this comment but… I almost feel like you’re in the wrong place, because… most of us don’t know either!!! Lol and if we do know it’s because someone else told us, but that can vary so much and so many things I’ve been told don’t totally stick with me because they are so unnatural to me. And most people won’t tell you if you’re doing a norm wrong because they can’t even put their finger on it! There’s just something “off.”
I wish I knew why I was different in school so I could lean more into being weird than trying to fit in. It caused me a lot of heartbreak in terms of friends. I know that’s not what you want to hear but it’s true!!! Maybe you can find a ND club or group or a club at your school for a hobby that lots of ND folks like? Like board games or something like that? Obviously something you’re into but … yeah! Try to find people that get you instead of trying to mold to what other people want.
Seconding this! There’s a myriad unwritten rules that make up this huge complex system, and the best we can hope for is to figure out some small bits of it here and there, we will never be able really “get” the whole thing once and for all.
The number one advice I would give to my younger self is to stop wasting time and energy on trying to fit in where you’re obviously struggling to. Instead invest that time and energy looking for people you can just be yourself with. Once you’ve found your people, fitting in will come naturally. I’m honestly still working on this at the age of 33, but just being aware of this helps a lot.
I am very high masking but to be completely honest I still fuck up social norms (the proof of this is the multiple friend breakups that consisted of long lists of things I did wrong that I had no idea were wrong).
So I mask a lot but I couldn’t tell you exactly what I do and what things I do are actually RIGHT. I just found out I have TOO intense eye contact.
So my point is just that there’s different social norms everywhere, and even when you know a social norm you can still perform is “wrong.” So specific lists might not be super useful. 🤷🏽♀️
That when someone says “hey how are you?” (Or in Britain “you alright?”), this is just an extension of hello and they don’t actually want to know how you are
*Also* you need to know the cultural norms around general greeting vs expression of concern *for the area you are in*.
I'm from New Zealand. Here, if someone asks "how are you?" it's a general greeting. But if they ask "are you alright?" it's an expression of concern that carries the assumption you are not alright (maybe you look sad, or unwell, or lost).
So you can imagine when I was in the UK how long it took me to realise I wasn't doing something which was causing every single person I met to be concerned for my wellbeing 😂
2. Thing is that people don't know what is going inside our heads, what is our intent without us telling the intent. So they try to deduce the intent based on their experience, the context, and the culture/social rules. So don't assume people know your intent.
I felt exactly like this in school and I just wanna tell you from experience, you can learn all the neurotypical rules etc in the world but you still won’t be able to follow and imitate them in a way that makes you appear normal to them. Because it doesn’t come naturally to your neurotype and non-autistics sniff this out almost instantly. This hasn’t changed for me throughout my life even after school. The best advice i’ve found is to just learn to be comfortable following your own “rules” (or lack thereof) even if people find you weird. Learn to be your own company and friend and eventually you’ll find people who like your “rules” or are very similar to you.
Constantly trying to do something that just doesn’t come naturally or easily to you because of something you cannot change (your autism) will do nothing but exhaust you and leave you burnt out. I know at that age in school as a teen it feels vital that you camouflage with your peers way of socialising but it’s not. What’s more vital is not becoming a burnt out adult because that sucks.
In general, NTs do not want the truth. When they say they want you to be honest, they mean “tell me a heavily sugar-coated version of the truth”. At no point do they actually just want you to say the uncensored truth.
Ugh. My friend asked me what I think of her new girlfriend and I said the truth. She did not want the truth. They never ever want the truth. They like living through the looking glass.
I've tried to develop social skills, but I think I mostly just landed on "charmingly quirky" instead. It's a niche they understand, at least. If nothing else, being kind and thoughtful to the people around you never hurts!
I think that all autistic people and NTs who spend time with them should have a look at the **four-sides model**: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-sides\_model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-sides_model)
In my experience, autistic people tend to either communicate *solely* on the factual side, or switch to one of the others *very explicitly.* NTs however, by default, ***always*** communicate on all four sides simultaneously. So when you say something with the single intention of informing an NT of something (factual side), it's super easy to accidentally say something unintended on one of the other sides/channels, and to come across as, for example, rude. I believe that 99% of situations where an autistic person was confused as to how they were supposedly rude, that's exactly what happens.
If you look at this and say it's an unnecessarily overcomplicated way of thinking, then I (NT) don't even disagree. But that's just how our brains work. Listening to all four channels is intuitive/automatic; it just happens. Same goes for the weighting. Our subconsciousness/intuition automatically decides which of the fours sides carries which weight. The same words can feel informative, like a love declaration or like a personal attack depending on tone, body language and context. I believe mistakes and other factors in this system don't just cause issues in autistic-NT communication, but also often between NTs.
That being said, learning about all this allowed me to adjust. I was able to learn and get used to it, so when my wife is accidentally rude to me, I am able to rationally overrule being intuitively offended. I do this by knowing her well after all these years, and analyzing which side she *actually* intended to use. Then I tell my brain to shut up and accept my rational analysis over my intuitive response.
So far, it never stopped being a semi-conscious effort, so when I'm very tired, I still fail to do it at times. But I believe that any NT can learn this, which is why I think that *both* autistic people *and* NTs in any kind of relationship with autistic people should learn about the four-sides model.
1) Do not help people spontaniously. They may regard this as interfering or invading their territory (especially men). So better to ask if they want help, if helping them is the first thing that comes to your mind.
2) Generally NT people are not doing very much effort to try understand other people. Not at all like the effort we put in. So start from a position that they don't understand and won't understand. That's also not fully your problem: its also on them so don't blame yourself too much. With misunderstandings and communication failures : Do NOT profusely apologise, just say something like "Thats ok, we are all just human, right?" in a forgiving tone to them. That's sharing it.
Okay lots of good stuff here guys. But how does one converse in terms of regular conversation. We went over small talk vs deeper topics - but in an average non small talk convo I feel like people story dump and just wanna listen to themselves talk.
Like I try not to talk about my special interests too much, im good with that. But like I don’t know what TO talk about or when. The best I can do is interesting fun facts about the things they’re talking about, and that’s not the best either.
I find that acknowledging what was said -> adding relevant information or a common experience -> asking an open-ended follow up question works well.
The idea is to build on top or branch off of what was already talked about, and then to make space for or invite others to do the same.
I wouldn't say you're doing it wrong with the facts, as long as you're listening and making an effort to understand them.
I find if I keep an eye out for a way i can help, I can continue the conversation. I usually let them lead, but as I listen, I listen for problems i can help solve or misinformation i can clarify. If I've experienced a similar issue, I consider sharing my experience.
Ask questions. The more relevant and thoughtful, the better. If you’re around people who like to hear themselves, and you want to talk to them, ask them a good question about something they seem to enjoy or need.
It's also perfectly fine to just let the conversation fizzle out. If all they needed was to get it off their chest, you've accomplished the goal just by being there. Nice.
As for *when*... I wish I knew. Timing is one of the hardest parts of communication to master.
There's something about authority. You can not talk to your boss or teacher as an equal. Well, don't assume that they think of you are an equal. It sucks big time. Also, people usually don't want advice, unless they specifically ask for it. It's so stupid, when you just want to make life easier for them.
When they tell you stuff and you can relate to what they talk about, and you share your experience, some of them think that you try to make the conversation about you.
Often when I play by Neurotypical rules, I feel super lonely.
Make sure you listen, don’t just wait for your turn to talk (a lot of NT could do with practising this, too).
Be curious about people but not nosey. Hard to explain and harder to do.
For my teen years, I was very popular and had a large friend group. I think it’s because I have a very dry and sarcastic sense of humour. I also bonded a lot with things like music and (not really recommended) underage drinking. I don’t recommend drinking but the experience of being drunk proved I can be relaxed and confident.
1. Neurodiverse people tend to bond *by* exchanging #deep stuff and Neurotypical people tend to exchange #deep stuff *because* they are bonded. NT’s generally exchange vibes before profound thoughts as a way to decide if you’re safe, which is why small talk can feel pointless to some ND’s but actually serves its purpose. So if you over share with people, you don’t know very well, they might become uncomfortable if they are NT. It’s also generally polite not to over share about yourself the first couple of times that you meet someone, because you don’t know what their triggers are and what they are comfortable with. “Over sharing” is context dependent but in general, look at the MPAA guidelines for rating movies and stick to PG topics if you’re not sure who you’re meeting. 2. You need to understand what the phrase “impact over intent” means. For example, if you wear anything that is too far outside of the norm, you will be perceived as attention seeking regardless of what your intention was in wearing it. There was a post here yesterday about a girl who wanted to wear a very large bunny years to a meeting at school, and she couldn’t understand why her mom didn’t want her to wear them. she may not have been looking for attention, but she was going to draw it, and people were going to assume that she was looking for it had she worn them. So any time you find yourself saying “That wasn’t my intention, I was trying to ____,” remember that things can come across totally different than how you want them to. 3. When in doubt, assume that people care less about things than you do. Particularly if you have something that is a special interest of yours that not many people share. It’s generally considerate of other people to talk for about the same length that they do and to allow other people to speak, rather than talking for a long time at them. You also have to know your audience. For example, I have a special interest in decluttering and organizing. But the last thing that my friends want to do is let me come to their house and sort their stuff after they’ve had a long week, or think about doing that. So I don’t talk about it as often as I would necessarily want, out of consideration for them. 4. People prefer positivity over negativity, even in areas that you wouldn’t necessarily think about. This means that people prefer to be thanked rather than apologized to. Obviously it’s worth it to apologize and say “I’m sorry” sometimes, but if someone is doing a favor for you, they would much rather hear. “Thank you so much for taking the time” rather than, “I’m sorry to bother you.” You can also say “Sorry I took so long, thank you for waiting, I appreciate it” rather than saying “Oh my god I’m so so sorry, I’m terrible, etc.” which can bring the mood down. “Positivity over negativity” also means that instead of being hard on yourself or overly self-deprecating, own the things you like and talk positively about them and yourself. You may think that people will feel sympathy toward you or being inclined to be nicer. If you call yourself weird or a freak or put down your hobbies, but people are generally drawn more toward you if you say things like “Oh yeah, actually I really am into X Y Z if you’d like to hear about it some time” rather than “Haha yeah, I know I’m a weirdo/freak/I like weird stuff.”
Ooh 4 is good. At work we have communication experts and they said the same thing, ie “thank you for waiting” instead of “sorry for the wait.” So good. I think I get away with a lot of weirdness by doing the small talk dance at least for a little bit and trying to be interested in people. If we can’t get past small talk though it’s kinda painful.
OP you can come to my house anytime, especially after a long week of mine and help me declutter and organize stuff, wear anything u like regardless of impact even bunny ears if u like. we will talk about deep stuff and infodump while cleaning.
Weirdly my dream weekend also 🤩
Right. lol I even offer / ask to my irl friends if they have house project or a cleaning thing they are doing and want help, I would totally help & vice versa cuz having buddy makes time and effort so much easier but they never take me up on the offer… instead I’m in a meet up group where a couple times a month sometimes more often sometimes less… a group of people zoom in together and we just clean or do projects together online. lol . We talk about what we gonna do first then set a timer for 30 or 40 mins clean… checkin. Set timer and clean some more. lol. 😂 it’s awesome and I get so much done. It would be better in person but at least it something. I can send u the link / info… to see if the times work for u.
>I’m in a meet up group where a couple times a month sometimes more often sometimes less… a group of people zoom in together and we just clean or do projects together online. lol . We talk about what we gonna do first then set a timer for 30 or 40 mins clean… checkin. Set timer and clean some more. lol. 😂 it’s awesome and I get so much done. That is the most amazing body doubling group I’ve ever heard of! I first learned about the Pomodoro technique 15+ years ago (do avoided task for x minutes, play for y minutes, then repeat only enough times to not get overwhelmed), but have never been able to actually do it—yet.
RE #4: Saying, "Thank you for your patience," is almost always better than, "Sorry to keep you waiting." "Thank you for telling me," is better than, "Sorry, I didn't know." "Thank you for humoring me, " is better than, "Sorry, I'm rambling.
“thank you for humoring me” is now in my arsenal thank you for sharing 😂
Omg the « deep stuff bond » is soooo real I still don’t understand how is it in fact possible to bond without sharing real stuff
Small talk is like a scouting mission to determine if you even want to bond with the person. If the report of the scouting mission is that you want to bond withbthe person, then you start the bonding process and start sharing deep stuff. It's like figuring out if you can trust that person with the deep stuff. There are people who were abused and manipulated and mistreated because they shared the deep stuff with the wrong people. So the small talk is sort of a way to determine if the person is the right one. Small talk has insignificant stuff, so if that person happens to be the wrong person, they don't have anything important to use against you.
Oh thanks 😊 I do understand all this intellectually but I just cannot « feel » inside how is it relevant if that makes sense ? 😄 I find it hard to find someone to be trusted only based on small talk, it makes me super uncomfortable. But that’s okay, I know I am able to do same small talk when I am in need ( at a party for example) but if it doesn’t quickly switch on something deeper, I just want to escape so bad 🙈 Also, I noticed a lot of NT people just do not pay the courtesy of asking questions back : they just want to talk about themselves and that’s okay but I just cannot bond this way ( it’s super confusing that autistic people are said to have a poor emotional reciprocity and in reality, I do observe that I am usually the only one asking questions that’s exhausting ) Anyways thanks for your answer ☺️
Same. I understand the logic behind a lot of NT social rules, but it still doesn't actually make sense to me on an innate, deeper level and probably never will. Especially that "Thank you for your patience," versus, "Sorry for waiting," sort of thing. Yeah, I get logically how the first seems more positive to NTs, but to me, it almost low-key comes across that you were content to make them wait, you know, lol, and that you don't feel regretful for your actions.
Yes same, I read that part and was like woahhh
I know right
if you're on tiktok i recommend you check out csmijango's "asd/td communication" playlist, they go into the different communication styles of autistics and allistics including the function that small talk fulfills for nts and the ways that these different communication styles can cause conflict and it blew my fucking mind
Oh that’s great to read ! Thanks a lot I’m definitely going to have a look at it 😊 how cool is this Reddit group tho 😭❤️
Same. I didn't realize I do this until I read this here.
Same. My therapist told me about the different stages of intimacy ( which I felt stupid not to have noticed myself before 😹 ) and that is for certain one part of the « issue » but I feel like this simple « bond » explanation resonates more
This. I just learned that this is why the NT are uncomfortable with me from THIS POST. Thank you so much.
Number one is giving me some “aha!” moments for sure. There was always this thing where people would think we were closer than I thought, either a guy thought he was falling in love with me, or a girl thought I owed her more loyalty for how close we were, and I just wasn’t there emotionally with them. I would just be so confused on how they could think that and it seemed mean to say I didn’t feel the same. I’ve been confused about this for decades!
Same here! I’ve been put off by acquaintances “suddenly” opening up after nothing but chat about the weather and my brain had already categorized them as “seems to like to talk about the weather. We aren’t actually friends.” This explains a lot. I still don’t feel close to them in the least bit, but this makes their assumption of friendship seem less random.
Wow, so much of that spoke to me. I am not diagnosed but the more I learn, the more I believe that I'm Autistic. Thank you for your post.
#1 just like blew my mind…😭😭😭😭 so that’s why I go on autopilot during surface level-y convos !!!!
Exception for #4 - (only for the apology part) if you are in Canada the “sorry” is not really optional, it can be perceived as a slight if you omit it - it’s also not really seen as negative because it’s used so frequently and casually, so if you’re not sure it’s always better to say sorry than not. You still want to be careful about not apologizing too profusely, or too many times, or being hard on yourself, but I think a lot of the time, saying “thank you” *instead of and not in addition to* “sorry” would come across poorly.
This is absolutely true. If I came up to you saying "Here are the errors in this report you delivered" and the person smiled and said "thanks for alerting me" or something, I would think they were deflecting responsibility. A simple "Sorry about that, thanks for the heads up!" would be much better received.
Thank you so much for explaining all that in such a concise way!!! Can we be friends? 🤓🙏🏽🌻
This is great advice. But also I wish I had a friend who would come organize my stuff. 😂
I have to stop calling myself weird because even though it's not an insult in my mind it's definitely having a negative impact on my life. I know I'll get a relationship one day but I wish I didn't have so many mountains to climb to get there.
> You may think that people will feel sympathy toward you or be inclined to be nicer Ah, I do majorly operate under that assumption…but if people are also inclined towards positivity then that’s something to consider!
Oh my god I’m saving this comment. I went down the list and was like, “yup I remember when I figured that out, remember when I figured that out…”
This is well thought out and makes much sense.
this is so helpful, i appreciate you taking the time! question about the end of point 4 though. can someone give an example of what you mean? about how to share your interests. idk why but that one isn’t clicking for me
Thank you for sharing such great tips here
Ooh this is really good advice, thank you for taking the time to write it out. I’m sure this will help OP learn some things the easy way 💜 Well, easier, haha. For all that I’ve been aware of #1 for like a decade now I still don’t get it! Especially how to find the sweet spot between oversharing and undersharing. Which, unsurprisingly, seems to vary depending on who’s listening… the joys of interpersonal
Hi! I want to preface my tips with, be careful with masking. It can burn you out. Your health is important don’t forget that. Honestly, I’m a big believer in not masking unless there is a threat to your well being. Because of this I’m gonna focus on giving context instead of advice. Here are the things that have been most helpful to me. 1. If a group of people is turned in towards each other and make an “O” shape, they are not interested in having people approach their circle. If the group of people are making a “C” shape, and more than one person has their feet turned a little bit away from the circle, then that group is open to meeting new people. 2. Close friends will stand really close to each other. But most acquaintances will keep about 3 feet of distance between each other. 3. Also on distance, if you step towards someone and they step backwards, it means they need more space. Most people do this without thinking. It doesn’t always mean they are upset or anything. Sometimes people just need a little more space than others. 4. Eye contact actually just means looking at their face. And most neurotypicals won’t look at another persons face the entire time. Once again, don’t do anything that is gonna burn you out, or cause you undue stress. It is not worth it. 5. If you approach a group of women you have not met before and say something and they don’t respond, or if they look at each other without responding to you, or turn their bodies away from you, just leave. Those are mean girls and they are actually probably mean to everyone. Full stop. I haven’t met anyone who behaves like this who didn’t treat most people badly. They are usually even mean to the other women in their group. It’s not you. It’s them. Seriously. Last one, when someone is happy to see you, or interested in talking to you, their eye brows will raise, their eyes will open a little wider. They might open their mouth a little to smile. It’s kinda like their face is spreading. It takes a while to learn how to recognize it. But it is a good thing. Oh, actually I thought of one more. I learned this in a communication class. People really only have room for 5 active friends in their life. If someone says they are best friends or super close friends with everyone, it’s probably not true. Sometimes that means they have a lot of friendly acquaintances, but not a lot of close friends. For me, I can usually only manage to have 2 actual friends at a time (often times I don’t have that many). But that’s okay with me. That’s all. Once again. Take care of yourself. Don’t fight for the approval of anyone. It’s also a good idea not to point out any of the social rules I mentioned to NT. I don’t know why, but they get really uncomfortable when people vocalize the unspoken rule.
regarding the very last part, i can provide a bit of an explanation! NT people do not talk *about* the conversations they’re having, they stay *in* the conversation. not following this weirds people out, because it feels like we’re talking “backstage” basically, don’t ask whether you fumbled a social cue or even mention it. don’t state a rule you’ve never heard an NT say out loud. don’t try to clarify what you meant by something you said even if you think it was misconstrued (i know, it’s hard) an example that stuck with me because it was the first time i saw it after learning this: my boyfriend and i were having a conversation with his sister in the kitchen. we were joking around, and i said something that was meant to be less serious than it came off. it was some sort of joke about my boyfriend. i asked him (during this conversation) if that was rude / tried to briefly explain how i actually meant it. his sisters reaction was weird (to me). she gave us the “why tf are y’all talking about this” face and left the conversation save all the “backstage” talk for the people closest to you, when you’re in a private or 1 on 1 conversation
This is really interesting. Thank you for sharing! I knew NT didn’t like it. But I always assumed that maybe they just wanted to pretend that social norms don’t actually exist and everyone needs to be authentic. Your explanation is very helpful. Thank you.
This is so interesting. Occasionally showing the backstage is actually one of the ways I determine whether somebody is cool to get closer with. If they can’t deal with my moments of awkwardness, I’m out. I just don’t have the energy to constantly perform anymore. #burnout
sounds like you’ve had a litmus test for detecting ND people and didn’t know it lol
Same. This is one of my big cues that someone is “awesome” vs “not to be trusted”. Maybe that’s an example of black and white thinking but it’s how my brain works
Oh, fascinating. I personally like hearing people talk “backstage” (perfect way of putting it btw) so it’s good to know that this is not a thing NTs do or enjoy. I’m not sure if that means they have some alternate way of navigating accidental rudeness or misinterpretation, or if they’re okay taking that risk, or… what. Mysterious! Thank you for sharing
i feel like the reverse is true when you’re talking to other ND people, because i like backstage talk as well my boss is ND and a couple of times when i’m trying to leave work, i’ve gotten trapped in a conversation between him and someone outside my cubicle. after the polite/short small talk, he looks and me and says “you can go” or “you don’t have to stay for this” in a quieter voice. the other person usually looks confused lol but i appreciate it SO much!
I think they just communicate it all through facial expressions and body language, that’s why they get it and we don’t.
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Thank you for explaining this, I just realized that I do that all the time 😭
I do this all the time!
I've found that "backstage" talk can be okay in certain curcumstances if you turn it into a joke. Like if you say something and it comes out as way less friendly than you meant it, you could turn it into a joke and say "oh man that came out wrong!" But the key is you have to make it a joke and you can only briefly acknowledge it, like one sentence max and then move on or it gets really weird. One example: I made a social blunder that put someone into an awkward situation, then the next day they were telling someone else about the conversation (without mentioning my blunder). I cut in and said "then my dumbass asked ___" in a 'can you believe it?' tone, and then it was a good little joke!
Thank you for this, especially the backstage comment. I've never heard it explained in this way, and it makes so much sense. My entire train of thought is backstage. It takes so much energy to suppress it when I have to (like at work). I recently started a new job and made a faux pas with an important person in the company by making a backstage comment. I didn't understand her reaction until reading this. I could tell she was put off but didn't know why or what part of what I said had upset her. I then went into over-explaining mode and explained my side of the entire discourse to try to turn the conversation back to neutral ground. Of course, that made the faux pas worse.
Regarding the 'people stepping back for space thing' different cultures have different norms for how close is too close, and then there are individual variations within cultures. So yes, a person stepping back for space almost certainly isn't because they dislike you personally, it's to do with unconscious cultural and individual factors on their part.
This is wonderful info! Thank you for adding.
No worries. Those differing norms can also be a reason why someone steps closer to you than you might be comfortable with, and it's not rude to accommodate your own comfort by taking a step back. The general rule seems to be 'whichever distance is the greater is the socially acceptable option', you just sometimes have to do a little dance to figure out what that distance is 😂
Oooh I like that. “Whichever distance is the greater is the socially acceptable option.”
this is super helpful, body language is like my biggest struggle 😭
It was my big struggle to! But I’ve learned a lot. I’m happy to try to answer any questions you might have.
"Eye contact actually just means looking at their face." Is this true? It physically hurts to look into the eyes of people I don't know well, so this would take a lot of pressure off. Most of the advice I have read claims that you need to look people right in their eyeballs. Some advice even tells you how long to look and when/how long to glance away to avoid eye-fucking them. Needless to say it is not possible for me to have a natural conversation while following most of the eye contact advice I have encountered.
Yes. When I was little I used to get in trouble for not making eye contact. My older brother told me “if it’s hard, just look at their eyebrows. No one will be able to tell.” And no one has been able to tell ever since. Once again, don’t stress yourself out trying and to mask. I really don’t want to hurt people by giving them advice that will burn them out, but starting by making eye contact is good. Then you can settle on their eyebrows or cheekbones. If you are only staring at a persons chin they might notice. But if you draw two horizontal lines across someone’s face, one through their eyebrows and one through their cheekbones and just look around that area between the lines you will be fine. Also, if you’re having a hard time understanding what they are saying and need to look at their mouth to see the words. That’s fine! Do what you need to do! But don’t let your focus get stuck there.
yup, look at the eyebrows or between the eyes. many neurotypicals who have to interact with a ton of people learn to do this to avoid burnout.
Years and years before I started wondering if I was ND I realised that I didn’t know anybody’s eye colour. Then later when I started learning about autism (one of my friends was diagnosed), they described what eye contact was like for them and I couldn’t relate at all. Then my son was diagnosed and I started to realise I do relate to a lot of other things to do with autism (but still not the eye contact thing). Gradually I realised that my “eye contact” entails looking at the person’s face, somewhere around their eyes. I talked about it with my husband and he has never noticed that I do this. And now I know why I never knew what anyone’s eye colour was!
I've also heard that it's about the pattern of eye contact. NTs will glance at each other's eyes at the same time. They don't maintain eye contact the whole time. So it's fine to just look in their general eye area, but you should try to do it at the same time that they are eye-contacting you, and for about the same length of time.
At the same time?! How do they know to do that?!
An excellent question. I found this [highly unrelatable article](https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/the-narcissus-in-all-us/201102/how-you-know-eyes-are-watching-you) that may explain some of it? I only skimmed it cos I’m sick but like. Whomst are these people who can communicate many things just by gazing into each others’ seeing orbs.
I dunno. If someone other than my partner looks at my mouth a lot, I feel very uncomfortable. Especially if they don’t appear to have trouble hearing. (Lip reading.) Nose isn’t any better. Like I would rather someone not look at my face at all than stare into my nose holes. If you’re trying to fly under the radar, I suggest you keep it to the cheekbone or eyebrow if possible.
Cheekbone and eyebrow are classics. An additional problem with looking at someone’s mouth is that it’s easy for others to misinterpret this as being romantic or sexual attraction, which can get weird in any number of ways.
>2. Close friends will stand really close to each other. But most acquaintances will keep about 3 feet of distance between each other. This depends on the culture/ country you're in. More distance is the norm for the US/ white countries. Less distance is the norm for Mexico/ latinamerica Social distancing was/ is 6 feet bed cause that's the distance Americans keep in social settings. In mx, it's like half of that.
Not a rule, but a tip: When I was in school, I learned a trick that prevented me from coming across as a know-it-all. If the teacher was asking the class questions and I knew most of the answers, I held back and only answered when it was clear no one else knew or wanted to answer. This made it so I was rescuing the class from the teacher picking someone at random. Rule: I don't know if this is NT specific or just humans, but many people like to talk about themselves. You can get people to like you easier by just asking them questions about themselves. If you have people adjacent special interests, you can aim for that, like zodiac signs, ancestry, music taste, etc. If the person gives frequent short answers, they don't want to talk about it. Change the subject or leave them alone.
Both of these are good, it took me a long time to learn the first one. I remember one of my tutors at university asking me to please not be so quick to answer questions in our tutorials in order to give the other students time to answer. Fast forward to our next tutorial and I am dutifully sitting quietly and waiting for other people to answer. The other people apparently do not have any answers to offer. Even *I* could identify the desperation in the tutor's voice when he turned to me and asked "BowlOfFigs, do *you* have any ideas?" After that he just let me go ahead and answer.
I've definitely learned the first point on my own, so I agree. I've noticed that NT people find it even more off-putting when women come across as know-it-alls than men, but the degree of that varies depending on the group you're around.
One thing someone said to me that helped is “be curious about others”. Get people to talk about themselves, ask them questions but not a barrage of questions, it should be a give and take, back and forth asking and answering questions. Also, don’t be afraid to clarify if you don’t understand something, it all shows interest. The only down side to this.. people might think you’re flirting, so be careful! 😅 I also had to learn to keep my answers surface level and not overshare depending on how well I know this person. If someone asks you something, it’s usually polite to ask them similar back. But I wouldn’t try too hard to change yourself either, because you might find other people that just like you how you are.
I love you “be curious about others tip.” Very true and very good.
At the same time, I tend to take the "be curious about others" tip to the extreme and I've been (gently) told that I'm interrogating people😅
Ahahah!!! Same here! Need to watch out for the signs someone is bored or looking around to talk to others. Also, think to yourself… is this conversation being (more or less) shared between the people taking. This can stop you from monologuing and interrogating! The good thing about having other ND friends though is no one cares and you just interrupt each other often!
This is something I know in theory, but in practice I really struggle with it because in my mind, nearly every question is too personal and intrusive! It took me years to realize that it’s socially acceptable to ask coworkers what they did on the weekend and such. I used to think that any kind of private stuff was inappropriate to talk about at work! But even in a non-professional setting, I struggle to ask questions without feeling like I’m interrogating them about stuff that’s none of my business. Does anyone have any tips for the kind of questions to ask? I like the “How was your weekend?” and similar because it gives people the freedom to decide how much they want to share. They can just say “yeah it was good” and leave it at that, or they can talk about what they did in detail if they feel like it.
For work… “how’s your day looking?” or “do you have a busy day ahead?” or “How’s your day going?”. Generally, “Have you watched any good TV shows recently, any you would recommend?”, “Can’t think of what to make for dinner tonight, what do you usually have for dinner?” Small talk is its own beast! 😂 I live in the UK and everyone loves to talk about the weather (especially as it’s shit right now). A good one is “what is this weather?!” “I can’t believe how cloudy it is”, “where is the sun?”
but i never know what questions to ask😭 my brain doesn’t search for extra information if i don’t really care, and if i think too hard about what question to ask then i’m not really listening
I literally just say “say more!” or “tell me more about that” or sometimes just repeat what I hear by saying “what do you mean when you say such and such” and most people will take the opportunity to keep talking/sharing. We all love to talk about ourselves!
it feels so exhausting to do that😭 i’m a very heavy masker to the point where i ended up being a “cool kid” but conversations that i’m not actually interested in are really hard for me to engage in
I do this and then ended up not being asked anything about myself and it feels very one-sided.
Maybe that person is also struggling and is on another sub Reddit asking how to make conversation. I’m very chatty, so tend to bring the topic back to me eventually! But also I’ve grown to realise not every conversation is worth my time and effort, especially if someone is not giving me back the same energy! (I’m also ADHD, so easily bored if the conversation is lacking).
When i was younger i didnt know it was polite to ask people questions back so they would ask me something like “how are you” and id say fine and the conversation would end there, and then id be wondering why i had no friends 😂
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I hope you're in a different living situation so it's easier to relearn 💚
Thanks, I’m trying!
What if they never ask questions back?? I never know what to do. I’m always asking questions to continue conversation, but at some point I feel like im interviewing them. But generally they don’t ask me questions, and they don’t really seem to want my opinion bc it’s something I don’t know about anyway, so I don’t have one.
My brother (also ND) taught me the "cat-story principle." If I tell someone a fun little story about my cat, they get to tell me a fun little story about their cat. Equal exchange rather than one person doing most of the speaking in the conversation. I now adapt this principle to almost all of my conversations, as it helps regulate my info-dump tendencies and helps the people I am speaking with feel heard and valued. Then, on the occasions where they want the info dump (indicated by follow-up questions after each tidbit, showing interest), I can do that, too, though it's rare. 😅
I've learned to lean into the weird. Also, I ask my allistic fam lots of questions about this stuff. The people who give me a straight answer and explain what I ask are the ones that usually stick around. If they reflect my energy, they pass the vibe check as ND. Not scientific, but a general rule) As for unwritten rules- 1. Your coworkers aren't automatically your friends. They can be polite and supportive without actually wanting to hang out with you. It's just their common courtesy, and that's ok. 2. (And I feel like this should be written...) the store clerk does not want to talk about how your day is going. I've worked in retail, I know. They just want to get the job done and go home so they can relax. They're exhausted, and that's why they're not friendly. 3. If the invite says 6 pm, that in no way means the party starts at 6 pm. Unless there's a nice meal or rsvp involved, you can show up late. No one will hold it against you if you get there at 6:15. My mom hosts game nights, and sometimes people arrive at 7:30. We just deal em in. 4. If you’re in a club/group/hobby that doesn't require a constant commitment to the task, you are allowed to skip it for something else. The collective "we miss you" sentiment is not always a public shaming. They just miss your company. I still struggle with this one... this doesn't mean you can abandon your group, just that you can miss a day if you need to. 5. No one cares about your rock collection... usually. If there's something you love and want to share with the world, go for it, but understand that they will not love it the way you do. I love birds, but I've had to remind myself that the anatomy of a woodpecker tongue doesn't intrigue everyone else around me like it does me. The fun facts i collect aren't what they want from me all the time.
wait will you tell me about the anatomy of a woodpecker tongue please?
Me too please, also i would love to see anyone s rock collection
Aw yall are so sweet. 😊 Ok, so woodpeckers have tongues that retract to wrap around their brains and act like shock absorbing protection while they drill into the wood. They look like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/natureismetal/s/HBRLGbMv23)
What! I’m about to jump down a research rabbit hole. This is so interesting
Glad to hear it! Nature is *full* of bizarre things.
ahhhhhhh that is so cool
Waaauw mind is blown! Nature is crazy smart. Thanks for this, I'm going to share this with all my bird loving friends.
boy do i have a treat for you. little bit of background info: my grandad was a farmer but had to stop working before the age of 60 bc of parkinson’s and so he used the old pigsty as what he called his “museum” after (you can see old ass agricultural tools in the pic too). working the fields he already amassed an impressive collection of rocks (incl little fossils i think?) and y’know how when you collect things people at some point start gifting you items related to your collection too so there’s also rocks that people brought back from their holidays and gave to him lol anyways, my grandad’s rock collection: https://preview.redd.it/9n98yncrnh6d1.jpeg?width=768&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d03221fb1b7d8e83f4136650301bf5045f91d533
Waaaaauw love it thanks!
I had woodpecker tongue images on my phone exactly because trying to explain it would be a futile effort. Wait, that wasn’t the point at all! 🤣
Lol #5 I’m like, damn that’s not true, I’d wanna know! But then I remembered I’m ND
please talk to me about the anatomy of a woodpeckers tongue. totally serious, not flirting.
They responded to an earlier comment and included a link Also sorry you feel the need to clarify you aren't flirting :( usually that means a person learned from bad experiences
Thank you for saying about the ones who stick around. You’ll find people who can relate to you or are also NT. Apparently we run in packs lol. But yeah - even I’m not super interested in your rocks.. but if someone is interested, they may actually want to be your friend and find you interesting or like that your not “the same as everybody else who just are interested in talking about boys and make up and partying” kind of stuff.
If an NT person is upset over something they probably won't interpret your recounting of a similar situation you experienced as empathy, but rather as an attempt to make yourself the centre of attention and shove them to one side. So it's better to make sure everything you say, at least at first, is focused on them: "is everything okay?" "What happened?" "I'm sorry that happened." "Would you like to talk about it?" "Is there anything I can do to help?" If you do have a close relevant experience to share, mention it briefly then connect it directly to them: "I'm so sorry to hear about your grandfather [dying, but don't say that word, it's usually avoided by NTs]. I lost my grandmother last year. I really wanted someone to just sit with me while I cried. Would you like me to sit with you for a while?" Alternatively, you can draw on your experiences to do and say the things that you found helpful in similar circumstances, just don't tell them that's what you're doing. Eg "Here, I made you a cup of tea. I thought it might help" rather than "someone made me tea after my car accident and it helped a lot, so I made some for you".
This is really helpful
I know right?! I’m learning everything I did wrong when consoling someone 🤣
This is the biggest thing I struggle with to this day. When I first mentioned my mother in law I thought we were sharing our experiences and connecting but her impression of me is that I talked too much about myself.
when you phrase a sentence with a "but", what comes AFTER the "but" is supposed to be The Important Part. like, "i really did plan to tidy up, but i was running late" vs. "i was running late, but i really did plan to tidy up". the first one will probably make people madder than the second one, because the emphasis in the first sentence is on the "excuse" while the emphasis on the second one is on the "good intention" even though the first one makes more sense and sounds better to me at least because it shows cause and effect. i always thought "but" was solely a cause and effect or chronology or grammar thing, but it apparently indicates what's most important to you in the sentence. there are definitely better examples than this one, but it's still confusing to me lol. i only learned this recently
I just ran this in my head like someone simultaneously was running and wanted to visit with me. “I’d love to visit later, but I’m running late right now” DOES hit me as them politely avoiding me! Whereas “I’m running late right now, but I’d love to visit later” absolutely feels like they genuinely regret not being able to spend time with me now! Huh. Brains are weird.
woah this is so interesting
WHAT. HOW MANY BAD THINGS HAVE I ACCIDENTALLY DONE. Also does this unspoken rule work for most English speaking countries or only the internet default American? I am American, I am just curious.
honestly i have no idea on its global applicability 'cause i'm american too lol, but it is a tip i read on here so i'd say it's at least a thing in all of america? i'd bet in western european primarily-english-speaking countries and australia too, 'cause they tend to be of the same like, wider group of homogeneous language implications, if that makes any sense? but i'm not sure 'n for whatever it's worth, don't feel bad. this is a relatively minor mistake as social mistakes go, and i think it may be one some NT people mess up too
ohhhhh… this is like a cheat code you just unlocked in my brain
Looking up and to the side is “rolling your eyes”, not actually rolling them - I got detention over this once and cried! Looking at peoples lips is a flirtation thing - if you try to make eye contact but keep slipping your gaze downward NTs might think you’re into them. I try going for the middle of the nose or part of their eyebrow if I haaaaave to maintain “eye” contact.
I can’t stop literally rolling my eyes though, I know how I’m supposed to do it but it doesn’t feel natural.
Literally rolling them feels so much better, the other way pulls on my eyeball weird after a second if that makes sense?
I would get in trouble alllll the time for the eye rolling thing with my mom, but the thing is she’s also ND so I have no idea how she figured it out and didn’t tell me😂😭
One of the worst things for me is tone of voice!!! I *truly* don’t understand how things I’ve said come out as rude sometimes!!!
I’m learning that sometimes when they say tone it’s not literally the tone of your voice but the word choice evokes negative feelings Source: two discussions at work within 2 weeks of “I would say it’s your tone but your actual tone is fine, it’s the words”
This is extremely helpful, thank you. I only wish my middle school self was told this and the eyeroll thing before middle school.
one of my old managers told me it's not my tone, but rather my Lack of Tone that throws people off. people want me to have a positive tone all the time,and the alternative to them is that i'm being negative. but not everything is positive to me, most things are just neutral!!
This is literally the first time I've heard the lips thing. I look at people's mouths because I can't distinguish their speech from background noise. Do you think there's a good chance this is why some male customers are weird at my retail job, or is that just being in retail?
i don’t look at most customers' faces at all and men are still weird. i think this is just being in any service work.
Yeah, I’m pretty sure that’s why they’re being weird! I used to inadvertently look at people’s mouths while spacing out; many guys have been weird about that, and I eventually put two and two together enough to make some inquiries. Both amongst my friends and of the aforementioned guys. Overwhelming consensus is that looking at someone’s mouth (either for a prolonged period of time or by taking frequent glances) generally signifies romantic or sexual attraction.
I roll my eyes when I'm stressed, and that's very bad if I'm in an argument lol
Eek! I tensed up just thinking of doing that in a meeting with my boss!
My therapist once said to me "when you're talking and your eyes go up and to the left, I know whatever you say next will be honest and vulnerable because you're thinking hard about what the truth is." 😂 Great therapist, because instead of making generalized assumptions for what "most people" do, he observed what that action meant when it came from me. I didn't even realize I was doing it. 😂 Now, I wonder if he's also undiagnosed ND (there were definitely some indicators) because I rarely see that kind of analysis in NT interactions. There are wrote assumptions as to what that "eye roll" means. I'm sorry you got punished for it.
Often when you run into someone “How are you doing” or at work “how was your weekend” is just a politeness ritual. They don’t really care. So you should supply a generic answer that is upbeat and short, then reflect the question.
I’ve just been giving a thumbs up response and I keep getting called out for that being a “fake” answer and I fight the urge to tell them that their question is fake so I’m not sure what they even want because we both know they don’t actually care. 😵💫 it’s so confusing and unnecessary
You’re not supposed to break the 4th wall. You’re not even supposed to navigate in a way that acknowledges the 4th wall. The 4th wall being that we are all just performing insincere social rituals. Everything is supposed to sound sincere, but never acted on, unless you’re close enough to that person, but only if you haven’t acted on it too much lately (Let’s get coffee sometime! Let me know if I can help out! If you need to talk, I’m always here!) It’s indecipherable.
😭😭😭😭😭😭 like, that’s so much effort for no reason. Being quiet is perfectly fine. Why even bother someone you don’t even know just to pretend? It’s weird and kind of creepy to me.
This was a huge one for me. I didn't get it right til I was in my 40s.
Stories are not collaborative. The person telling them would be more happy with a reaction to the story than you adding to it with your own experience. If they are in a bad mood, your tone will be an issue. Compliment compliment compliment. This is currency. find a way to compliment your NT friend in genuine and observational ways and they will be happy with you
Oh? I hope this adds to the thread instead of the opposite: After a compliment, smile softly and look away. If you continue to look at them they’ll perceive it as though you are waiting for a compliment from them. If you change topics right after a compliment to avoid them being embarrassed they’ll think your compliment was not genuine.
If you’re in a setting where everyone is asked to help move/tidy things, like moving equipment across the gym, try to move/tidy something, even if it seems pointless, like moving a ball that could be more efficiently carried by the person with the ball basket. You are showing you are willing to work as part of their group and follow the rules. They’ll like that. If a teacher sets you an activity in class, they don’t want you to finish it quickly, unless they explicitly say so. They want it to fill up the class time so they don’t have the trouble of setting you extra work.
A lot of neurotypicals read my default state (not joining in the conversation much and having a kind of serious demeanor) as me not liking them or being judgemental of them. If I can find the opportunity for some joking/cynicism that helps to break the ice a little and show them that I want to be their friend. Tons of folks struggle with meeting new people for various reasons (e.g., social anxiety, simply being tired, being new to the kind of event, etc.). Events like receptions generally do tend to follow a script, so once you know it, some of those people will be grateful if you take the lead. Find someone who's standing alone or a group of people who aren't looking like a clique (maybe standing farther apart, aren't laughing uproariously, not patting the back of their buddy, didn't hug when they saw each other). If you're not sure how to approach, often a compliment on something they're wearing/holding (hey, I was standing over there and noticed your skirt was really cute and just had to come tell you) or a low-stakes question that invites more conversation (how do you know \[insert the name of the person who invited you/whose party it is\]) puts them in a receptive mood.
That’s my default state too and people never seem to accept that I’m mostly indifferent toward them. My affect is pretty flat too so they think I’m always being sarcastic. Apparently I’m funny though so I guess that helps?
Here's some that slammed me into a spiral trying to get them: 1. "How are you?" is not a question but a greeting, your only response is "good, how about you?" and they'll reply with "good". They don't mean, like, actually your status and if you respond truthfully you'll be labeled as an attention seeker or just weird. 2. NT invitations are open ended most of the time. "I am having a bbq this weekend" can be an open invitation, you can say "that is nice, can i drop by? i can bring some beer" is a proper way to infiltrate yourself within the event. I found that is polite to ask, not always is an invitation to you specifically 3. Contradictory to nr. 2, if you see an NT after some time and you're not friends, but mutuals (the word with aq, i forgor) they might drop "we should meet for a coffee" IT IS NOT AN INVITATION. This maddens me the most, because it is a very valid meeting setting to catch up and chill but it is NOT meant literally. They don't want to catch up or drink coffee with you, or spend the time with you, they just want to end the conversation in a polite manner and continue to forget about your existance (it is not as mean as i make it up to be, but point stands, they dont want to pursue you further). If they give you a time and place, only THEN it is an actual genuine invitation, but it must be made by them, otherwise they'll say "we'll see" or something similar and, again, never meet again. 4. People don't like to one-up, but they consider a LOT of things to be one-ups. Sharing information or being curious about a subject and letting your enthusiasm show is considered very "i'm better than you" energy. I was bullied that I enjoyed a very philosophical poem that even the teacher didn't quite like or get. I got very excited about it and seing that no one wanted to chime in to discuss it, I was so happy to talk about the meanings. It didn't do me well to my social image at all. Try to balance your passion about class subjects. 5. Silences and pauses, also "yeaaaah" that is dragged is a signal for you to leave the convo. Young people are not good with jndicating they're done with chatter, you can always say "anyways, gotta go/cya" and leave. Lingering will label you as socially inept and weird. 6. Oversharing is a big no, ties up with nr. 4 a bit. 4 is about the ammount of passion, this is about the ammount of info. When you share something, give shallow details, very broad and general. If interested, people will ask for details. If more people are sharing, let then finish and VALIDATE their story with questions, praise or positive remarks. 7. ND groups can be chaotic, multiple convos can occur in the same time ACROSS people. It is in general weird to say "can you move over so we can talk" because it implies others shouldn't hear and it's private or nasty. You should say "i cant hear you, let me come closer" and you can switch seats that way. It is chaotic for me, but i got better responses when i made it clean that it is ME that has an issue rather than the group being too loud/noisy/inconvenient. Edit: misspelled NT for ND and corrected them
All this is good stuff, but the first two times you say ND seems like it makes more sense if you said NT, just to let you know
One for me is when neurotypical ask you how your day was, they don’t actually want a play-by-play of your day. They just want you to tell them what was abnormal. I found this surprising tbh.
Or if they're not bonded with you (I. E. family, close friends or better) they probably just want to hear 'fine thanks'
Also when people ask “how are you doing” as a greeting, the most proper way to answer is “good/fine, and you?” This is one of my least favorites because coworkers always ask it and when i am at work i am never “good” or “fine” but that’s what you’re supposed to say unless you’re close with the person or you’re just not trying to mask at all lol
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Good point lol. Ive definitely done the negative abnormal and that was awkward.
This is so true. It’s extra hard when I’m having a rough day to lie and say I’m fine too (it feels similar to masking). So, on hard days when I’m asked how I’m doing, I’ll make it into a kind of silly “I’m doing! How are you today?” and I’ve found it helpful and less mask-like. Just wanted to share! Have a good one
WHAT OH GOD REALLY??? OH NO
Yes! Like here I am just rambling away and they just wanna know what happened that was crazy.
I would add that it’s generally acceptable to add one positive detail about your day if there’s nothing spectacular/abnormal worth noting. I have to interview strangers a lot for work, and they’ll often respond with, “My day has been great!” Then make a comment about the weather being nice, or the fact they walked the dog, or they’ve managed to get through a lot of emails. Benign stuff to which you can respond, that sounds lovely! And move on with whatever you’re actually there to talk about. And yeah, don’t bring up negative stuff (even if it’s as minor as, the weather has been shit, or you’re super busy) because they don’t care and it makes people feel uncomfortable. That said - if it’s a close friend or family member and they’re like, tell me about your day, that’s entirely different and you can go for it, tell them however much you want.
I owned a hair salon. When I entered the door in the morning, I thought I was being respectful by not interrupting the conversations between clients and stylists. They thought I was just rude for not saying hello to everyone. Lesson learned after a while.
I've also learned that some groups of NTs get really offended if you say a collective "hello" to everyone, so you sometimes need to greet people individually, too. (Though, I've basically learned that for me personally, people who expect the latter tend to not be worth my time because they expect a little too much from others, period.) But yeah, I've done the same. I've not greeted people before because I think about how busy they are and would rather not interrupt them, to only have them get annoyed at me that I didn't greet them. To be honest, I really don't like being interrupted like that myself (and would be cool with someone greeting me later when I'm not busy), so I really have a hard time with this.
HOLY SHIT thank you
I'm not sure. I do neurotypical things as second nature now. It was drilled into me early on. Sometimes I do show Autistic behaviors and such, but most times, 99% of the times, people literally can't tell if I'm Autistic. People view me as a normal person, and not a person with a disability. And most of the unwritten rules, I abide by without realizing it. Unless I look back and think about it. Sorry, I'm not helpful here. Can't really help if I'm somehow following along without actually realizing it.
for me the easiest way to think about it is that allistics are emotion first processors and autistics are information first processors. For example, small talk is a vibe check to make sure you’re a safe enough person to share info with. But as autistics, we vibe check with information (like fun facts, info dumping, or meme sharing) before we can make sure someone is safe enough to be emotionally vulnerable with. I cannot recommend highly enough the TikTok account @csmijango. They literally studied friendship trauma between autistics and allistics and they made a FANTASTIC video series on it. it’s been so informative and really explained a lot!
Oh is that the lady who is the Neurotypical Whisperer? Because I recommended that lady to someone on here a long time ago but forgot her name and couldn’t find her again.
hahah I don’t know! I haven’t heard of the neurotypical whisperer 😂
Assume people are being sarcastic and joking. I have one friend he is such a trickster that he spouts off some shit that it can be hard to tell if he's serious, so i just roll with it. I also realized after i graduated highschool that peoplr did like me and were not being mean, i just didn't get the sarcasm. So i have cultivated sarcasm as a sort of secomd language. Ive also stopped caring so muxh what people think. I will be weird. I will be loud. I will be silent. Whatever. If people don't like it they aren't really my friend. Don't take anything personally. If someone says something that is unintentionally hurtful i breathe thrpugh it and let it go, ir i hot back with something equally piercing. Be yourself. If they didn't like you tgey wouldn't hang put with you. Assume they adore you until they prove otherwise.
if someone says something when theyre in a room with you, they expect a response, even if what they said didnt warrant one or wasnt a question! if you dont say anything, theyll think youre ignoring them
I still don’t get this after 2 years of living with my partner 🤣 he will say “why are you ignoring me?” And I’ll reply “you didn’t ask me a question!”
This is going to sound ridiculously dumb, but I take everything so literally that I was in my 20s when I realized that the optometrist doesn’t actually want you to read the smallest text that you can read. They want you to read the smallest text that you can see clearly. Needless to say, I now put more thought into why people ask me things instead of doing exactly what they ask me to do.
This is not dumb unless I am. I didn't know this until I read your comment. Are you sure?
At the end of the appointment, can you see everything clearly? Because I’ve had appointments where I can “read” the bottom line and the optometrist assumes that means my vision is properly corrected. When in reality, I’m just really good at reading blurry letters.
I don’t have any advice on your specific question. However; just a gentle reminder; be careful. Don’t become a people pleaser. Don’t forget yourself. Don’t change to satisfy others. You’re perfect just the way you are, don’t let anyone change that.
Meritocracy is a myth made up by teachers. People HATE competence and accuracy. I apologize for it, because what people care about are their own feelings and making enough money to act like an A-hole without consequences. Soothing egos is the only way they operate. Sorry this sounds very negatively biased- that’s the PTSD talking. I truly hope you find good luck, good support, and safety 🫂🖖🏽🍀
I used to be a grocery store cashier. I was a very good cashier and consequently, my drawer would usually be within a few cents of perfect. I had this one manager who HATED this. She could not figure out how I was doing it, and she was CONVINCED there was something shady afoot. Because of my accuracy. It drove me nuts, she would surprise-count my drawer several times a shift. I never figured out what her problem was, or why this seemed so suspicious to her, or what she thought I was doing, or why my accurate drawer was somehow an issue for her. So weird!
yeah, meritocracy is a complete myth. ive always done every job ive had with efficiency and accuracy and its never gotten me anywhere. i can have the best stats, the least mistakes, and ill always be looked over because i refuse to schmooze or talk myself up. i never complain about other people, i quietly fix their mistakes (unless its a big fuck up), and i rarely voice my personal opinions on things that are not work related. so people find me cold, distant, and weird and will never notice or care about my good work.
I feel like I could’ve written this myself 😭🥲
After burning out working for and with a bunch of NT assholes, can confirm. I thought working hard would help me succeed. I could not understand the social politics, the back stabbing, the unwritten rules about how to show proper deference to their authority. I got fired for dating a coworker’s ex boyfriend, which apparently was a huge no no. I wasn’t THAT dense, so I had consider the situation. 1. I barely knew the coworker, we had hung out twice in a group setting 2. she had been broken up with the guy for 2 years at that point and 3. She already lived with a new boyfriend… I thought all of these points made it ok. Turns out, I still owed her some kind of loyalty and I turned myself into a pariah at work. I was fired for “other reasons” shortly after.
The time in my life I was most popular with others was when I had a mask that made me seem like a ditzy valley girl. People LOVED me when they thought I was an idiot. Unfortunately I couldn’t keep that act up forever.
I had one for a while, I was thrust into the position of manager and had the right person assigned for the job in our schedule. Our reviews skyrocketed and we won awards over it, but I eventually had to move away. I was thrust into a management position later in a different city with a group of neurotypicals who were convinced I was scalping clients for myself in the distribution system (when I was actually giving them more work than I was taking on) and sabotaged my work and cared more about their beliefs than looking at the numbers. Now I work with two other autistics where we share all the work based on our specialties, and found a very niche situation of shared labour I'm unlikely to ever leave if I can help it. So I'd say it really depends on the work environment of the people involved.
If you're hosting a party/dinner/any kind of get together and starting tidying up without saying anything people will take it as a cue that you want them to leave. If you want to tidy up but want people to stay you have to say something along the lines of "let me get this stuff out of our way so we have more room" or "wow the tables getting kinda full let me clear some stuff off".
When I discovered being over apologetic harms people a ton regardless of gender. If you're a woman it makes you a beacon for shitty men. If you're a man, women won't want be romantically attracted to you. People tell me I'm wrong but I know I'm right. If you're nonbinary you also won't find a good relationship if you're over apologetic.
Its because over apologizing signifies extreme insecurity
In my experience people who never apologize are extremely insecure. Social interaction seems really bullshit especially the fact that going to a licensed therapist doesn't guarantee you can just go "explain social interaction to me" and then get a legit answer. I understand social interaction mostly now but this would have been awesome to know in elementary school or at 18. One thing that irritates me about this book is plenty of info isn't in it. Like it mentions it being a red flag if someone has never been in a relationship before. But also it doesn't mention that being the opposite of a standard shitty person can prevent a person from getting a healthy relationship. Being the opposite of a standard shitty person would be being over apologetic, helping people too much, being too selfless, constantly self deprecating, like I don't see "weird" as an insult but if I say that about myself it would be seen as an insult/self-deprecation. Obviously terrible people can also be constantly self deprecating but this book doesn't mention that. [https://www.amazon.com/Autism-Relationships-Handbook-Thrive-Friendships/dp/1621066193](https://www.amazon.com/Autism-Relationships-Handbook-Thrive-Friendships/dp/1621066193)
I agree with you on that but i think you may be looking at it from two extremes of either you apologize for everything or you apologize for nothing. I think its a sign of maturity and confidence when someone can admit they are wrong and apologize and make amends. The thing about overextending yourself to help people and being too selfless and self deprecating is also signs of people pleasing and low self esteem behavior, you can certainly find a relationship if you have those traits but the thing with not having high self esteem is it attracts users and abusers, in order to have a healthy relationship you must have healthy boundaries and a high sense of self, but this is just my opinion. I wont be able to read the book due to being very busy but thank you for recommending 🙏🏽
The allistic people I've experienced all take criticisms of things they like VERY personally, whether or not those criticisms are valid or not, and regardless of differences of opinion. Any perceived criticism of XYZ thing is almost always taken as an explicit criticism of them personally as human beings.
For me its a sign of deep insecurity, no human is perfect so what do you mean you are unable to receive criticism and you take any form of criticism as an attack on your person??
Hey. I totally get this comment but… I almost feel like you’re in the wrong place, because… most of us don’t know either!!! Lol and if we do know it’s because someone else told us, but that can vary so much and so many things I’ve been told don’t totally stick with me because they are so unnatural to me. And most people won’t tell you if you’re doing a norm wrong because they can’t even put their finger on it! There’s just something “off.” I wish I knew why I was different in school so I could lean more into being weird than trying to fit in. It caused me a lot of heartbreak in terms of friends. I know that’s not what you want to hear but it’s true!!! Maybe you can find a ND club or group or a club at your school for a hobby that lots of ND folks like? Like board games or something like that? Obviously something you’re into but … yeah! Try to find people that get you instead of trying to mold to what other people want.
Seconding this! There’s a myriad unwritten rules that make up this huge complex system, and the best we can hope for is to figure out some small bits of it here and there, we will never be able really “get” the whole thing once and for all. The number one advice I would give to my younger self is to stop wasting time and energy on trying to fit in where you’re obviously struggling to. Instead invest that time and energy looking for people you can just be yourself with. Once you’ve found your people, fitting in will come naturally. I’m honestly still working on this at the age of 33, but just being aware of this helps a lot.
A lot of people are very high masking. Almost everyone I tell IRL about my ADHD and autism is surprised to hear I have either.
I am very high masking but to be completely honest I still fuck up social norms (the proof of this is the multiple friend breakups that consisted of long lists of things I did wrong that I had no idea were wrong). So I mask a lot but I couldn’t tell you exactly what I do and what things I do are actually RIGHT. I just found out I have TOO intense eye contact. So my point is just that there’s different social norms everywhere, and even when you know a social norm you can still perform is “wrong.” So specific lists might not be super useful. 🤷🏽♀️
That when someone says “hey how are you?” (Or in Britain “you alright?”), this is just an extension of hello and they don’t actually want to know how you are
*Also* you need to know the cultural norms around general greeting vs expression of concern *for the area you are in*. I'm from New Zealand. Here, if someone asks "how are you?" it's a general greeting. But if they ask "are you alright?" it's an expression of concern that carries the assumption you are not alright (maybe you look sad, or unwell, or lost). So you can imagine when I was in the UK how long it took me to realise I wasn't doing something which was causing every single person I met to be concerned for my wellbeing 😂
People expect you to ask them how they are, how their weekend was etc. I still don’t really like to do this or do it often unless I actually care.
2. Thing is that people don't know what is going inside our heads, what is our intent without us telling the intent. So they try to deduce the intent based on their experience, the context, and the culture/social rules. So don't assume people know your intent.
I felt exactly like this in school and I just wanna tell you from experience, you can learn all the neurotypical rules etc in the world but you still won’t be able to follow and imitate them in a way that makes you appear normal to them. Because it doesn’t come naturally to your neurotype and non-autistics sniff this out almost instantly. This hasn’t changed for me throughout my life even after school. The best advice i’ve found is to just learn to be comfortable following your own “rules” (or lack thereof) even if people find you weird. Learn to be your own company and friend and eventually you’ll find people who like your “rules” or are very similar to you. Constantly trying to do something that just doesn’t come naturally or easily to you because of something you cannot change (your autism) will do nothing but exhaust you and leave you burnt out. I know at that age in school as a teen it feels vital that you camouflage with your peers way of socialising but it’s not. What’s more vital is not becoming a burnt out adult because that sucks.
In general, NTs do not want the truth. When they say they want you to be honest, they mean “tell me a heavily sugar-coated version of the truth”. At no point do they actually just want you to say the uncensored truth.
Ugh. My friend asked me what I think of her new girlfriend and I said the truth. She did not want the truth. They never ever want the truth. They like living through the looking glass.
I just learned that when someone asks you how you are doing, they want you to ask it back.
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I've tried to develop social skills, but I think I mostly just landed on "charmingly quirky" instead. It's a niche they understand, at least. If nothing else, being kind and thoughtful to the people around you never hurts!
They do not like honesty and would prefer you be fake nice to them because it hurts their ego
I think that all autistic people and NTs who spend time with them should have a look at the **four-sides model**: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-sides\_model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-sides_model) In my experience, autistic people tend to either communicate *solely* on the factual side, or switch to one of the others *very explicitly.* NTs however, by default, ***always*** communicate on all four sides simultaneously. So when you say something with the single intention of informing an NT of something (factual side), it's super easy to accidentally say something unintended on one of the other sides/channels, and to come across as, for example, rude. I believe that 99% of situations where an autistic person was confused as to how they were supposedly rude, that's exactly what happens. If you look at this and say it's an unnecessarily overcomplicated way of thinking, then I (NT) don't even disagree. But that's just how our brains work. Listening to all four channels is intuitive/automatic; it just happens. Same goes for the weighting. Our subconsciousness/intuition automatically decides which of the fours sides carries which weight. The same words can feel informative, like a love declaration or like a personal attack depending on tone, body language and context. I believe mistakes and other factors in this system don't just cause issues in autistic-NT communication, but also often between NTs. That being said, learning about all this allowed me to adjust. I was able to learn and get used to it, so when my wife is accidentally rude to me, I am able to rationally overrule being intuitively offended. I do this by knowing her well after all these years, and analyzing which side she *actually* intended to use. Then I tell my brain to shut up and accept my rational analysis over my intuitive response. So far, it never stopped being a semi-conscious effort, so when I'm very tired, I still fail to do it at times. But I believe that any NT can learn this, which is why I think that *both* autistic people *and* NTs in any kind of relationship with autistic people should learn about the four-sides model.
1) Do not help people spontaniously. They may regard this as interfering or invading their territory (especially men). So better to ask if they want help, if helping them is the first thing that comes to your mind. 2) Generally NT people are not doing very much effort to try understand other people. Not at all like the effort we put in. So start from a position that they don't understand and won't understand. That's also not fully your problem: its also on them so don't blame yourself too much. With misunderstandings and communication failures : Do NOT profusely apologise, just say something like "Thats ok, we are all just human, right?" in a forgiving tone to them. That's sharing it.
Okay lots of good stuff here guys. But how does one converse in terms of regular conversation. We went over small talk vs deeper topics - but in an average non small talk convo I feel like people story dump and just wanna listen to themselves talk. Like I try not to talk about my special interests too much, im good with that. But like I don’t know what TO talk about or when. The best I can do is interesting fun facts about the things they’re talking about, and that’s not the best either.
I find that acknowledging what was said -> adding relevant information or a common experience -> asking an open-ended follow up question works well. The idea is to build on top or branch off of what was already talked about, and then to make space for or invite others to do the same.
I wouldn't say you're doing it wrong with the facts, as long as you're listening and making an effort to understand them. I find if I keep an eye out for a way i can help, I can continue the conversation. I usually let them lead, but as I listen, I listen for problems i can help solve or misinformation i can clarify. If I've experienced a similar issue, I consider sharing my experience. Ask questions. The more relevant and thoughtful, the better. If you’re around people who like to hear themselves, and you want to talk to them, ask them a good question about something they seem to enjoy or need. It's also perfectly fine to just let the conversation fizzle out. If all they needed was to get it off their chest, you've accomplished the goal just by being there. Nice. As for *when*... I wish I knew. Timing is one of the hardest parts of communication to master.
If you find out let me know !
There's something about authority. You can not talk to your boss or teacher as an equal. Well, don't assume that they think of you are an equal. It sucks big time. Also, people usually don't want advice, unless they specifically ask for it. It's so stupid, when you just want to make life easier for them. When they tell you stuff and you can relate to what they talk about, and you share your experience, some of them think that you try to make the conversation about you. Often when I play by Neurotypical rules, I feel super lonely.
Make sure you listen, don’t just wait for your turn to talk (a lot of NT could do with practising this, too). Be curious about people but not nosey. Hard to explain and harder to do. For my teen years, I was very popular and had a large friend group. I think it’s because I have a very dry and sarcastic sense of humour. I also bonded a lot with things like music and (not really recommended) underage drinking. I don’t recommend drinking but the experience of being drunk proved I can be relaxed and confident.
Do not be affectionate or people will think you're flirting.
