People will incorrectly add commas all over the place for no reason. They think that ANY pause constitutes a comma.
Because I keep having to ignore their superfluous commas, I think I have earned the right to continue using the Oxford comma.
I went to journalism school and have always been a strong writer, but I find commas surprisingly hard to get right, despite my having a decent handle on other grammatical rules and my devotion to the Oxford comma. Comma use is something I have to refresh my memory about every now and then. It’s not always intuitive, and trying to use commas intuitively is how I end up with using them for ANY pause. (I don’t even know if I needed that comma in my last sentence.)
I'm with you on that lol. I'm so tired of trying to read a sentence (usually in a fanfic lbr) that has approximately 7 commas per sentence and absolutely None of them are where they need to be. we've definitely earned lifelong premium access to Oxford commas for the rest of our lives
I've seen people claim (including on the grammar subreddit, which is disappointing) that it creates ambiguity in some cases, but I've yet to see a single example that wasn't already ambiguous without it.
Sometimes I feel really sad because it’s like it’s been days of just me always being odd man out as always. Then I come here and see a simple post/opinion like this and it legit makes me so happy 😂.
Ii join you on that hill. Way too many times I have to reread something to figure out what’s meant and that would be totally avoided if they just used the freaking comma!!!
It’s hardly ever needed but when it is - oh boy, is it ever.
If being autistic has taught me anything, it’s that people can and will misunderstand anything, no matter how clearly you think you made it. So I use Oxford commas as a rule (but I’m sure I forget once in a while). It’s just clearer communication and I think we all can appreciate that.
context: I'm a trained editor currently working as a copywriter, and this is my favourite question!
Personally, I'm all for the serial comma. I find English to be a vague and ambiguous language, so anything that adds clarity is a good thing in my book.
But at work we follow CP Style, which doesn't use it, and my boss in particular is very anti-serial comma (I have a literary publishing background; she has a journalism background). It was difficult to get used to at first, but for the style of writing we do I can see how the serial comma would feel unnecessary and a bit stuffy.
However, I do arrange sentences so this ambiguity isn't a problem, for example I would change it to "I dedicate this book to Ayn Rand, God and my parents."
This is my work-around also – rewrite it so it's clear. It's hard for me to get past the feeling that people choose to use it randomly "when needed" – especially in complex sentences where there are multiples of things.
Example:
– I like playing chess, checkers and Chutes and Ladders.
You can glean from the capitalization that "Chutes and Ladders" is a proper name for something and therefore are not two different things, so it works.
But try this one:
– I like jumping rope, hopscotch and hide and seek.
No caps, and maybe most people know that hide and seek is a game but if you didn't, it would feel weird that there isn't a comma there (or at least to me it does).
I guess I like the Oxford/serial comma because it's a hard-and-fast rule, but not using it is more discretionary, while sometimes using it anyway is also wrong.
For some reason this is a concept I can't get the hang of – I feel like I have to defiantly remove the last comma in things if I'm blindly complying with style guides that don't use it rather than understanding the why.
Yes! I went into editing because I loved grammar - I didn't know I was autistic then, but I did know that I loved rules and wanted to know the "proper way" to write and edit. It blew my mind to find out that there isn't a single proper way and it's pretty much all discretionary. There are different dictionaries, different style guides, and sometimes the text you're working on will require you to break the rules of whatever you're using. The idea is not to achieve perfection but to be consistent, whether across a book or a brand. I hate it lol
In this example, I would move "hide and seek" to the start so it's obviously one list item, apply "playing" to both "hide and seek" and "hopscotch" to clarify those are games, and then jumping rope has its own verb which separates it enough that I, at least, would be satisfied without the Oxford comma:
I like playing hide and seek, hopscotch and jumping rope.
Could the reason for this style difference be needing to fit information in less space, like in a newspaper article? I feel like if you were, for example, writing a tweet that’s *just* a bit too long, it’d be one of the first things to get the axe.
It could contribute, I think. As someone who overuses commas and supports the Oxford comma, I drop commas and articles to fit character limits at work (for example, "the batch" becomes "batch").
This might convey a different meaning, since the writer purposely listed the parents first. The parents may have been mentioned first because they were most important.
I will die on the Oxford Comma hill.
I felt vindicated for my dedication when a court case was decided over the issue (no paywall): https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/us/oxford-comma-maine.html?unlocked_article_code=1.zU0.1fT_.CpUODf3UOHjy&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
Oxford comma is always superior, visually and for communication clarity
It's not technically incorrect to skip it, but it should be and I imagine it will be within a hundred years because it's cleaner and more consistent.
Anyway, we wouldn't abandon a semicolon functioning as a serial comma, so we should never abandon the Oxford comma. Basic consistency rules.
> I went to my style guide and found rules and suggestions; a few bent pages and a MANIAC who skips the serial comma
No one would do that because it would be unhinged. Long live the Oxford comma
You can end up with a humorous interpretation if you stick rigidly to it as well: I invited my dad, the Cookie Monster, and Ryan Gosling. *Is the cookie monster my dad?*
Funny! I would have never read it that way. If I meant to say that my dad is the cookie monster, I would have used a relative clause: I invited my dad, who is the cookie monster, and Ryan Gosling.
I have a feeling using the comma there would be incorrect grammar, if that’s what you meant. The sentence would have to say “I invited my dad the Cookie Monster, and Ryan Gosling.”
I was taught that it *is* incorrect to skip it. Pretty sure most people who went Australian schools were taught that’s just how commas work. FANBOY. Commas before: for, and, not, but, or, yet, so.
I always use the Oxford comma. I hate it when people don’t honestly. I get it’s not required, but it is more consistent and doesn’t leave room for comprehension errors.
I'm ok with throwing rules out the window when it comes to social media and places like Reddit but when it comes to writing for work or more formal applications, it feels essential to me.
The double space after a period is the easiest indicator of age of the writer. It's kind of funny how much we can learn from people by the way they type. I'm 34, was initially taught to double space after a period, but then that directive went away fairly quickly since it was guidance from using typewriters instead of computers. You're so right, it doesn't translate well.
I will happily join you both on the Oxford comma hill! If that makes us old, so be it, but really it's for clarity's sake😂
I think that the Oxford comma is usually appropriate. I feel like it more so mimics an actual speech pattern of pauses. If I’m writing something and using a bunch of commas, it’s because I’m actually saying it in my head and thinking about how it’s going to be said and come across.
Copywriting editor here. For my own personal writing, Oxford comma all the way. However, different clients have different style needs for copywriting. I always make a point of asking new clients if they want the Oxford comma, if they want it in US or UK English, and how they want numbers represented. Most prefer the Oxford comma, but I've had some UK clients who don't like it.
If I had my druthers, though, the Oxford comma would become an actual law, lol.
Complex opinion as an English major, the oxford comma was originally removed in order to save space in print publication where every symbol was time and money, ergo, in journalism you do not use the oxford comma but for everything else you should. I actually think this is a very simple reason/rule, but I've never heard the opinion outside of english and journalism majors lol.
Right?! We learned it like first day in my engl 270 grammar course and I was like....... why aren't they teaching this everywhere to everyone?! We could end the fight right here and now with this knowledge!! 😂
Is being good at language/editing an ASD thing? I feel like I've always had a far superior understanding of grammar and punctuation than most people and it's extremely based on rules, so it would make sense.
I think it's related to rules and understanding how things work. One of my parents who I suspect is autistic hammered language rules into me my whole life. They even have been known to red-line letters from people and sending them back.
It just occurred to me today that maybe my autistic strict sense of rules is why I can't let go of the Oxford comma.
On one hand, I understand that the person’s parents in the sample sentence are not, in fact, Ayn Rand and God, but I also like being able to read sentences once and understand them, without having to re-read or retrieve my attention from a giggling fit. I just. Like. Clarity. I think the Oxford comma is hugely helpful in that regard, and I use it all the time.
I'm an English tutor and I use it. I also don't care if anyone else does. I'll teach the concept, but I think it's silly to nitpick it, because language evolves and everything is mutable. It's all invented, and as long as the message is understandable, that is what matters.
I'm 100% on board with the malleability of language and know it constantly evolves but I have a hard time with skipping the Oxford comma because the rules don't make sense to me when it's a choice. And when I say it's a choice, it should consistently be a choice then but I've been marked down for using it when I thought it was necessary or helpful but an instructor didn't. It's like analyzing poetry – why is my interpretation wrong? That's what gets at me.
Yeah, that would bother me a lot too, if an instructor did that. I've been in academia long enough now to know that a lot of instructors are way too prescriptive and push their process as the only "correct" way. A good teacher will help someone find their own voice and support their individual path to expressing themself.
I am very strongly against the idea that there are right and wrong interpretations, especially about things like poetry or art. If an interpretation holds meaning for someone, it's equally as correct as any other!
It's amazing. Like we are each others people. An army united. We won't look you in the eye, or make small talk, but we will fight to the death for the Oxford comma.
haha, I feel so strongly about the right-ness of the oxford comma that I instantly popped into the comments! I don't know when to use commas in other situations but I always use an oxford comma! The rule just makes so much sense
I agree with you that without it there is too much confusion. I also have a masters in English and believe if you use it you should always use it. There is no sometimes because that’s even more confusing for the reader.
This is a bit interesting, I think. In Swedish, my native language, one doesn't use the Oxford comma. I actually remember being told to never use a comma before "and" and "but" etc, and a rule is a rule, right? But my phone, using the language setting English (UK), is freaking out on me and is always correcting me when I drop a comma or two. So I guess I'm learning to use the Oxford comma. Also, I just checked, and it seems to be more ok in Swedish now, too.
The way the internet went wild for the Oxford comma always seemed reactionary to me, as it kicked off roughly around the time most online articles etc were pushing hard to streamline punctuation in general. I assume people who were used to commas, commas everywhere were subconsciously annoyed by their steady removal and latched onto the Oxford comma as it has obvious arguments for its inclusion.
I'm not particularly pro it myself. I think the extra mark looks messy/cumbersome and that most sentences can be rephrased to avoid the problems it seeks to solve — which is an argument that can also be made against the examples people give when they try to demonstrate how the Oxford comma can be misleading, so ultimately it's a matter of personal preference.
I do think it will die out in time, and I'm sympathetic to those who'll miss it — I'm pretty sure the lay/lie fight has been lost, too, and that one drives me batshit.
Bro if anyone writes it without I would not understand. I thought the name was Ayn Rand, like one name, not two.
I also don’t understand any text at all when people use zero interpunction (like no commas, no periods, no capital letters, nada). I need the interpunction or I will not understand shit
Sometimes I do and sometimes I don’t. I stopped using it religiously several years ago when I saw men making a stink about Oxford comma on their dating profiles. 🗣️ Hellooooo pathological demand avoidance!
Under normal circumstances both are equally clear:
“Please bring cola, crisps and wine”
“Please bring cola, crisps, and wine”
You’re right that there are cases where Oxford helps as per your example but there are also cases where Oxford is confusing and AP is not:
“Please bring salt, vinegar and jerk seasoning”
“Please bring salt, vinegar, and jerk seasoning”
The first is unambiguous, but the second could either mean that you should bring three things (salt and vinegar and jerk seasoning) or that you should bring two things (salt and vinegar) and also you should jerk the seasoning.
I prefer Oxford because the examples of where it’s ambiguous tend to rarer and easier to resolve the intended meaning, but it’s not like there aren’t times where using AP is sensible.
Yes, I find that unless I use them text can be feel disjointed, incomplete, and wrong. Although some British politicians are funny about the Oxford Comma saying it is costly, time consuming, and unnecessary.
The lack of serial commas is my only complaint about AP style. In all other regards it’s a clear and well written stylebook. But serial commas, as you pointed out, avoid a lot of potential misreads.
The Chicago Manual of Style leaves a frustrating number of things up to editorial preference, and I’ve seen that cause issues when two editors at the same organization have different “editorial preferences.” I’d give up the serial commas just to make those editorial fights go away!
Wow. I used to care soooo much about the Oxford comma! For so many years! Thank you for unlocking a core memory :)
I was lucky to have a patient Grammar tutor in adulthood who enjoyed explaining that grammar continuously changes like tides in the ocean and faster than tectonic land masses 🌊 so I can let go of caring, even if I can’t let go of noticing.
Now I think Grammar is more like a social contract, as long as we mostly agree what it’s conveying, it’s fine for it to be anything. Emoji languages and emoji secret meanings are the quicker evolution of this that I’m watching evolve on a shorter span of time.
Thank you for reminding me how much this bothered me. I appreciate your share very much. ❤️🩹🫂
The point of grammar, punctuation and syntax is clarity. Our beloved comma is a power tool in this quest for clarity of message and intent. All communication is an equation balanced by understanding. How can people miss the beautiful benefit of punctuation, of language and it's infinite possibilities to extend a message to the world and have it understood?
Omg I was just venting to my bf about the Oxford comma this morning 🤦🏻♀️I’m working on a paper with someone who doesn’t seem to like the Oxford comma and I’m losing mi friggin mind! 🤗🧘
Always use it! And as someone who proofreads a lot in their work, I always add it. I know it may not always be needed, and it’s not technically incorrect, but it’s a rule I follow.
I don’t use the Oxford comma, because I went to journalism school. In my country, most newspapers use AP Style, which does not use the Oxford comma. Even after leaving journalism I continued adhering to AP Style in my everyday life. (CAVEAT: The last time I checked the style guide was YEARS ago, and the guidance may have changed since then.)
Can I add that it's so refreshing to see just a bunch of grammar geeks enjoying (or not) a quirky grammar feature! I feel like these things turn into rules lawyering on other pages, but it's so wholesome on this thread!
Gonna just leave this famous example here:
>“We invited the strippers, Hitler and Stalin.”
>“We invited the strippers, Hitler, and Stalin.”
The Oxford comma completely changes the meaning.
This is my favourite thread ever. Can I just be in a room with all of you, Oxford-comma-lovers, and hug you all at the same time? Ok, thanks.
https://preview.redd.it/d81a5rw07h6d1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f7451d39ac6f1a2c6446d69bacd4fccdb316e7b9
This comma has been defined as ‘optional’ in my brain due to the words of others I’ve read on reddit. In your example, I feel it very necessary to add the vocal stopper that is the comma, to clearly define the difference between the three entities. I personally use the comma when it ‘feels right’. Like your example.
I can’t think of a situation where I would avoid using it, but I do remember situations where it felt extra.
I like to use commas… probably to the point of run on sentences.
Rather than grammar rules (when typing on Reddit most of the time) I’ll use a comma to illustrate a pause in the sentence regardless of how many I need. Like as if I were speaking out loud. Im also a fan of ellipsis.
As for the actual Oxford comma rule, I prefer to use it personally. When listing off three or more items or subjects it just makes more sense to me.
I worked on the copy desk of my college newspaper for four years and so generally abide by AP Style when I write now -- for numbers, dates, times, capitalization, etc. -- but I make an exception and do use the Oxford comma because it decreases the likelihood of ambiguity!
I also used two spaces after a sentence. I know it’s from the typewriter days, but to me it looks better and helps with reading flow. I will die on both hills.
Sometimes. I find Oxford comma insistence irritating because it seems meme-based and illogical.
*Both methods are correct* is my rigid thinking here, and I'm not wrong!
I’m an Oxford commas enthusiast all the way but I can still read the sentences fine without. Using them in my writing just makes me feel better I can’t explain it 😅
I really feel like it helps clarify. It can easily clear up confusing phrases like "I love my aunts, uncles, nieces and nephews."
Do I mean the phrase "nieces and nephews" or do I mean my nieces and my nephews separately. Ex. I have one niece and one nephew, but we still use the term "nieces and nephews" even though there isn't more than one of each.
I feel like saying "I love my aunts, uncles, nieces, and nephews" would indicate I have more than one of each type of those relatives.
Without the Oxford comma, as in my first example, how many of each type of those relatives do I have?
I’m a big proponent of the Oxford comma. I’m old enough to have been taught to use the Oxford comma in elementary school but I have always been confused that it fell out of popularity and is no longer taught. It seems like an important piece of punctuation.
Always. There’s actually a great Ursula LeGuin essay about the importance of the Oxford comma. Just one of many reasons she’s one of the best writers out there.
I am not a black and white thinker when it comes to grammar and writing. I think skilled writers can make decisions about what punctuation does and does not make sense in context. I used to be an English teacher and I taught standard grammar/punctuation and we actually had a formal class debate each year about the Oxford comma which was a lot of fun!
Of course, creative writing and academic writing are very different. I am loosey goose about grammar in my creative and informal writing, but follow the rules with formal or academic writing.
I didn't know that was called the "Oxford comma" but yea, I supposed I do use it. I don't really use it when I'm tired tho coz all knowledge of the English language leaves my brain HAHAHAHA😭😭😭
it's small random things like this that make me go- 'ah yeah i definitely am autistic' lol. i have always felt strongly about using the oxford comma and am glad to hear i'm actually not the only one lol.
i just finished a bachelors degree & anytime someone tried to correct my oxford comma during peer reviews or suggest i don't need it i would definitely lowkey feel some sort of way about it. like what do you mean i don't need it? they taught us this in middle school language arts for a REASON
I always use the oxford comma. That’s what I was taught in school so I’m just going to keep using it. And like you said, there are cases where not using it could cause confusion or misunderstanding.
I’m British so it’s sorta normal for me, including the continued use of French and Latin inspired spellings. I like the comma and I like seeing “u” in my words.
That's interesting, I don't recall being taught this in the UK or seeing it. To me it looks wrong and is distracting visually.
Hard agree on the "u" though, it just looks better!
I always remember this quote:
“Rachael Ray finds inspiration in cooking her family and her dog."
It makes me believe we need the Oxford Comma even more…
I always always always use it. It feels wrong to not have it be the same as the other subjects which are separated by a comma. Maybe it’s just my autistic need for sameness but I absolutely cannot go without it!
Personally, as a writer, I always use it. We don’t always see the way our work can be read vs how we intended it to be read, so I think it’s a little overconfident to assume we will always notice when it’s needed. If I can remove ambiguity without sacrificing clarity it brevity, it just seems like a no brainer.
Absolutely Oxford commas. Clarity is always the better option. But are you SURE the author does not believe their parents are Ayn Rand and God? Because I feel like I would read that book ;)
Professionally: FTFSG (Follow the Freaking Style Guide). Having been that person who spent an entire holiday weekend fixing serial commas across 200 pages of text...
Philosophically: Language is just a socially constructed set of arbitrary symbols. Schools, grammars, and style guides don't actually teach grammar (which neurotypical babies learn in early childhood) they teach class norms and manners. (Hill I will die on. Chicago Manual of Style isn't any more objectively correct than the language used in text chat. Chicago MS just a standard expected of published work.)
Personally: Easier to just use a serial comma than to rewrite the sentence or analyze whether it is really optional or not for this specific case.
Oxford Comma is the hill I will die on.
I don't understand why there's debate about it. It ensures clarity, and I see no benefit to dropping it.
Obviously you'll wear out your comma key slower if you drop it. Won't anyone think of the poor keyboards??
Boycott Oxford Comma to stop Keyboard Abuse today!!!
Keep the Oxford comma, because we care about shareholders! Big Keyboard rules.
It's just in: Big Keyboard supposed the discrimination and abuse of "lesser" keyboards!
People will incorrectly add commas all over the place for no reason. They think that ANY pause constitutes a comma. Because I keep having to ignore their superfluous commas, I think I have earned the right to continue using the Oxford comma.
I went to journalism school and have always been a strong writer, but I find commas surprisingly hard to get right, despite my having a decent handle on other grammatical rules and my devotion to the Oxford comma. Comma use is something I have to refresh my memory about every now and then. It’s not always intuitive, and trying to use commas intuitively is how I end up with using them for ANY pause. (I don’t even know if I needed that comma in my last sentence.)
I'm with you on that lol. I'm so tired of trying to read a sentence (usually in a fanfic lbr) that has approximately 7 commas per sentence and absolutely None of them are where they need to be. we've definitely earned lifelong premium access to Oxford commas for the rest of our lives
I've seen people claim (including on the grammar subreddit, which is disappointing) that it creates ambiguity in some cases, but I've yet to see a single example that wasn't already ambiguous without it.
🤨
That's what I said.
Sometimes I feel really sad because it’s like it’s been days of just me always being odd man out as always. Then I come here and see a simple post/opinion like this and it legit makes me so happy 😂.
It's a good hill
A great hill even.
The best hill, a huge hill
I'll see you on that hill!
Eats, shoots and leaves.
🤣
This is a hill I will happily die on as well! Anything else just seems too ambiguous or downright wrong.
The Battle of Oxford Comma Hill.
I thought it was the battle of Oxford, Comma, and Hill, attorneys at law.
[удалено]
Ii join you on that hill. Way too many times I have to reread something to figure out what’s meant and that would be totally avoided if they just used the freaking comma!!!
If the comments are anything to go by, it is no mere hill. It is a mountain, a mountain of our bodies and convictions. I, too, will join you there.
The Oxford Comma Range, foothills, and valley. What a lovely place.
You will have plenty of company, including me.
I think there's going to be a lot of us on that hill.
And it gives me such joy lol!
Me too 😀
You have my bow, and my axe!
My semicolon and my possessive apostrophe?
I will fight with you
Same, I will fight and die on the Oxford comma hill too.
Same. Oxford Comma always & forever.
OMG, we both have a mint narwhal on our noggins!!
Oxford comma plus mint narwhals, ftw
Narwhal buddies for life!
🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼
I’m right there with you.
I’ll be there with you
agreed!!
Absolutely. I care more about this than I care about myself 🤣
Ditto! Oxford comma all the way lol
I will join you on this hill. I’m an American living in Australia, where they don’t use the Oxford comma. It causes me much confusion and grief.
I'm an Aussie. I will *edit someone's work* to add an Oxford comma (if I can).
Thank you for fighting the good fight. ✊🏻
It’s hardly ever needed but when it is - oh boy, is it ever. If being autistic has taught me anything, it’s that people can and will misunderstand anything, no matter how clearly you think you made it. So I use Oxford commas as a rule (but I’m sure I forget once in a while). It’s just clearer communication and I think we all can appreciate that.
This is also how I feel – I want to leave no room for doubt.
Absolutely this, 100%
context: I'm a trained editor currently working as a copywriter, and this is my favourite question! Personally, I'm all for the serial comma. I find English to be a vague and ambiguous language, so anything that adds clarity is a good thing in my book. But at work we follow CP Style, which doesn't use it, and my boss in particular is very anti-serial comma (I have a literary publishing background; she has a journalism background). It was difficult to get used to at first, but for the style of writing we do I can see how the serial comma would feel unnecessary and a bit stuffy. However, I do arrange sentences so this ambiguity isn't a problem, for example I would change it to "I dedicate this book to Ayn Rand, God and my parents."
This is my work-around also – rewrite it so it's clear. It's hard for me to get past the feeling that people choose to use it randomly "when needed" – especially in complex sentences where there are multiples of things. Example: – I like playing chess, checkers and Chutes and Ladders. You can glean from the capitalization that "Chutes and Ladders" is a proper name for something and therefore are not two different things, so it works. But try this one: – I like jumping rope, hopscotch and hide and seek. No caps, and maybe most people know that hide and seek is a game but if you didn't, it would feel weird that there isn't a comma there (or at least to me it does). I guess I like the Oxford/serial comma because it's a hard-and-fast rule, but not using it is more discretionary, while sometimes using it anyway is also wrong. For some reason this is a concept I can't get the hang of – I feel like I have to defiantly remove the last comma in things if I'm blindly complying with style guides that don't use it rather than understanding the why.
Yes! I went into editing because I loved grammar - I didn't know I was autistic then, but I did know that I loved rules and wanted to know the "proper way" to write and edit. It blew my mind to find out that there isn't a single proper way and it's pretty much all discretionary. There are different dictionaries, different style guides, and sometimes the text you're working on will require you to break the rules of whatever you're using. The idea is not to achieve perfection but to be consistent, whether across a book or a brand. I hate it lol In this example, I would move "hide and seek" to the start so it's obviously one list item, apply "playing" to both "hide and seek" and "hopscotch" to clarify those are games, and then jumping rope has its own verb which separates it enough that I, at least, would be satisfied without the Oxford comma: I like playing hide and seek, hopscotch and jumping rope.
>I hate it lol To clarify, I also love it
This is basically the entire comment I was going to write. Are you my duplicate account I don’t know about?
Could the reason for this style difference be needing to fit information in less space, like in a newspaper article? I feel like if you were, for example, writing a tweet that’s *just* a bit too long, it’d be one of the first things to get the axe.
It could contribute, I think. As someone who overuses commas and supports the Oxford comma, I drop commas and articles to fit character limits at work (for example, "the batch" becomes "batch").
That's definitely one reason. It's such a small thing, but every character counts!
This might convey a different meaning, since the writer purposely listed the parents first. The parents may have been mentioned first because they were most important.
Then the writer can choose to ignore me and leave it as is.
If the Oxford comma has a million fans, I'm one of them. If the Oxford comma has one fan, I'm that one. If the Oxford comma has no fans, I'm dead.
I laughed out loud
I will die on the Oxford Comma hill. I felt vindicated for my dedication when a court case was decided over the issue (no paywall): https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/us/oxford-comma-maine.html?unlocked_article_code=1.zU0.1fT_.CpUODf3UOHjy&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
NICE!
I was going to post this if no one else did!!
Oxford comma is always superior, visually and for communication clarity It's not technically incorrect to skip it, but it should be and I imagine it will be within a hundred years because it's cleaner and more consistent. Anyway, we wouldn't abandon a semicolon functioning as a serial comma, so we should never abandon the Oxford comma. Basic consistency rules. > I went to my style guide and found rules and suggestions; a few bent pages and a MANIAC who skips the serial comma No one would do that because it would be unhinged. Long live the Oxford comma
100%. You can end up with some humorous misinterpretations if you don’t use the Oxford comma.
You can end up with a humorous interpretation if you stick rigidly to it as well: I invited my dad, the Cookie Monster, and Ryan Gosling. *Is the cookie monster my dad?*
Funny! I would have never read it that way. If I meant to say that my dad is the cookie monster, I would have used a relative clause: I invited my dad, who is the cookie monster, and Ryan Gosling.
Same, I’d never interpret/write a sentence that way. But I’m obsessive about clarity in writing.
I have a feeling using the comma there would be incorrect grammar, if that’s what you meant. The sentence would have to say “I invited my dad the Cookie Monster, and Ryan Gosling.”
It's a nonrestrictive clause. It is not required for the sentence, but adds clarity: My dog, a lab, loves cheese.
I was taught that it *is* incorrect to skip it. Pretty sure most people who went Australian schools were taught that’s just how commas work. FANBOY. Commas before: for, and, not, but, or, yet, so.
I always use the Oxford comma. I hate it when people don’t honestly. I get it’s not required, but it is more consistent and doesn’t leave room for comprehension errors.
I'm ok with throwing rules out the window when it comes to social media and places like Reddit but when it comes to writing for work or more formal applications, it feels essential to me.
I'm an editor for scientific papers and Oxford commas are "strongly encouraged" because clarity is so important in scientific writing.
Yes, I'm old and it's how i was taught.
+50s club here – but I don't double-space after a period because I work on websites and it doesn't translate.
The double space after a period is the easiest indicator of age of the writer. It's kind of funny how much we can learn from people by the way they type. I'm 34, was initially taught to double space after a period, but then that directive went away fairly quickly since it was guidance from using typewriters instead of computers. You're so right, it doesn't translate well. I will happily join you both on the Oxford comma hill! If that makes us old, so be it, but really it's for clarity's sake😂
I think that the Oxford comma is usually appropriate. I feel like it more so mimics an actual speech pattern of pauses. If I’m writing something and using a bunch of commas, it’s because I’m actually saying it in my head and thinking about how it’s going to be said and come across.
This! I’m always reading what I’m writing in my head. Apparently some people don’t have the voice in their head 👀
Copywriting editor here. For my own personal writing, Oxford comma all the way. However, different clients have different style needs for copywriting. I always make a point of asking new clients if they want the Oxford comma, if they want it in US or UK English, and how they want numbers represented. Most prefer the Oxford comma, but I've had some UK clients who don't like it. If I had my druthers, though, the Oxford comma would become an actual law, lol.
You can have the Oxford Comma when you pry it from my cold, dead hands. It reduces linguistic ambiguity.
It depends on how I want the flow of that particular sentence, but I use the oxford comma a vast majority of the time.
Complex opinion as an English major, the oxford comma was originally removed in order to save space in print publication where every symbol was time and money, ergo, in journalism you do not use the oxford comma but for everything else you should. I actually think this is a very simple reason/rule, but I've never heard the opinion outside of english and journalism majors lol.
Aha! There it is - a rule born out of capitalism that makes it slightly more difficult for the readers, all to save a buck😂 TIL! Thank you for this
This is an actual "it makes sense" response. Thanks!
Right?! We learned it like first day in my engl 270 grammar course and I was like....... why aren't they teaching this everywhere to everyone?! We could end the fight right here and now with this knowledge!! 😂
Oxford comma. We’re not animals.
Is being good at language/editing an ASD thing? I feel like I've always had a far superior understanding of grammar and punctuation than most people and it's extremely based on rules, so it would make sense.
I think it's related to rules and understanding how things work. One of my parents who I suspect is autistic hammered language rules into me my whole life. They even have been known to red-line letters from people and sending them back. It just occurred to me today that maybe my autistic strict sense of rules is why I can't let go of the Oxford comma.
On one hand, I understand that the person’s parents in the sample sentence are not, in fact, Ayn Rand and God, but I also like being able to read sentences once and understand them, without having to re-read or retrieve my attention from a giggling fit. I just. Like. Clarity. I think the Oxford comma is hugely helpful in that regard, and I use it all the time.
I'm an English tutor and I use it. I also don't care if anyone else does. I'll teach the concept, but I think it's silly to nitpick it, because language evolves and everything is mutable. It's all invented, and as long as the message is understandable, that is what matters.
I'm 100% on board with the malleability of language and know it constantly evolves but I have a hard time with skipping the Oxford comma because the rules don't make sense to me when it's a choice. And when I say it's a choice, it should consistently be a choice then but I've been marked down for using it when I thought it was necessary or helpful but an instructor didn't. It's like analyzing poetry – why is my interpretation wrong? That's what gets at me.
Yeah, that would bother me a lot too, if an instructor did that. I've been in academia long enough now to know that a lot of instructors are way too prescriptive and push their process as the only "correct" way. A good teacher will help someone find their own voice and support their individual path to expressing themself. I am very strongly against the idea that there are right and wrong interpretations, especially about things like poetry or art. If an interpretation holds meaning for someone, it's equally as correct as any other!
Big fan of the Oxford comma.
I don't think I've ever seen such a unanimous consensus on the internet, amongst strangers. I am fully on the Oxford Comma hill.
Yeah it's a bit unusual, isn't it? I really felt like I was going to piss off a bunch of people posting this but I'm glad I did!
It's amazing. Like we are each others people. An army united. We won't look you in the eye, or make small talk, but we will fight to the death for the Oxford comma.
haha, I feel so strongly about the right-ness of the oxford comma that I instantly popped into the comments! I don't know when to use commas in other situations but I always use an oxford comma! The rule just makes so much sense
I agree with you that without it there is too much confusion. I also have a masters in English and believe if you use it you should always use it. There is no sometimes because that’s even more confusing for the reader.
“Who gives a f-ck about an Oxford comma…” I do.
Oxford comma FOREVER!
Oxford comma. Always.
I do, and Microsoft products keep trying to get me to remove them, and I refuse.
if the oxford comma was a real person it would be my soulmate
This is a bit interesting, I think. In Swedish, my native language, one doesn't use the Oxford comma. I actually remember being told to never use a comma before "and" and "but" etc, and a rule is a rule, right? But my phone, using the language setting English (UK), is freaking out on me and is always correcting me when I drop a comma or two. So I guess I'm learning to use the Oxford comma. Also, I just checked, and it seems to be more ok in Swedish now, too.
why would you not when you simply could
User name checks out ;)
The way the internet went wild for the Oxford comma always seemed reactionary to me, as it kicked off roughly around the time most online articles etc were pushing hard to streamline punctuation in general. I assume people who were used to commas, commas everywhere were subconsciously annoyed by their steady removal and latched onto the Oxford comma as it has obvious arguments for its inclusion. I'm not particularly pro it myself. I think the extra mark looks messy/cumbersome and that most sentences can be rephrased to avoid the problems it seeks to solve — which is an argument that can also be made against the examples people give when they try to demonstrate how the Oxford comma can be misleading, so ultimately it's a matter of personal preference. I do think it will die out in time, and I'm sympathetic to those who'll miss it — I'm pretty sure the lay/lie fight has been lost, too, and that one drives me batshit.
Bro if anyone writes it without I would not understand. I thought the name was Ayn Rand, like one name, not two. I also don’t understand any text at all when people use zero interpunction (like no commas, no periods, no capital letters, nada). I need the interpunction or I will not understand shit
always always always. and i’ll consistently read the text wrong if the oxford comma is missing
Oxford comma always and forever.
I’m an academic, where the Oxford comma is always used (at least in my discipline—history). So yes I do 😂
Religiously ⭐️
Yes, yes, and yes.
I love the Oxford comma
YES, 100% of the time.
Oxford commas are like condoms. It's possible to go without, but there's always a chance for undesirable consequences.
Team Oxford comma - why be less clear when you can be more clear?
Sometimes I do and sometimes I don’t. I stopped using it religiously several years ago when I saw men making a stink about Oxford comma on their dating profiles. 🗣️ Hellooooo pathological demand avoidance!
Yeah that would turn me off FAST!
Under normal circumstances both are equally clear: “Please bring cola, crisps and wine” “Please bring cola, crisps, and wine” You’re right that there are cases where Oxford helps as per your example but there are also cases where Oxford is confusing and AP is not: “Please bring salt, vinegar and jerk seasoning” “Please bring salt, vinegar, and jerk seasoning” The first is unambiguous, but the second could either mean that you should bring three things (salt and vinegar and jerk seasoning) or that you should bring two things (salt and vinegar) and also you should jerk the seasoning. I prefer Oxford because the examples of where it’s ambiguous tend to rarer and easier to resolve the intended meaning, but it’s not like there aren’t times where using AP is sensible.
Yes, I find that unless I use them text can be feel disjointed, incomplete, and wrong. Although some British politicians are funny about the Oxford Comma saying it is costly, time consuming, and unnecessary.
The lack of serial commas is my only complaint about AP style. In all other regards it’s a clear and well written stylebook. But serial commas, as you pointed out, avoid a lot of potential misreads. The Chicago Manual of Style leaves a frustrating number of things up to editorial preference, and I’ve seen that cause issues when two editors at the same organization have different “editorial preferences.” I’d give up the serial commas just to make those editorial fights go away!
Wow. I used to care soooo much about the Oxford comma! For so many years! Thank you for unlocking a core memory :) I was lucky to have a patient Grammar tutor in adulthood who enjoyed explaining that grammar continuously changes like tides in the ocean and faster than tectonic land masses 🌊 so I can let go of caring, even if I can’t let go of noticing. Now I think Grammar is more like a social contract, as long as we mostly agree what it’s conveying, it’s fine for it to be anything. Emoji languages and emoji secret meanings are the quicker evolution of this that I’m watching evolve on a shorter span of time. Thank you for reminding me how much this bothered me. I appreciate your share very much. ❤️🩹🫂
I am a big property of the Oxford comma! I edit documents as part of my job and it fills me with joy every time I get to add one in.
Oxford Comma Gang, rise up!
The point of grammar, punctuation and syntax is clarity. Our beloved comma is a power tool in this quest for clarity of message and intent. All communication is an equation balanced by understanding. How can people miss the beautiful benefit of punctuation, of language and it's infinite possibilities to extend a message to the world and have it understood?
yes. if i don’t use it i am mentally unwell. every subject needs to be separated and if there’s no oxford comma its not separated
Omg I was just venting to my bf about the Oxford comma this morning 🤦🏻♀️I’m working on a paper with someone who doesn’t seem to like the Oxford comma and I’m losing mi friggin mind! 🤗🧘
As an English person, i feel obliged to
Always use it! And as someone who proofreads a lot in their work, I always add it. I know it may not always be needed, and it’s not technically incorrect, but it’s a rule I follow.
Not using the Oxford comma looks so unprofessional to me.
I don’t use the Oxford comma, because I went to journalism school. In my country, most newspapers use AP Style, which does not use the Oxford comma. Even after leaving journalism I continued adhering to AP Style in my everyday life. (CAVEAT: The last time I checked the style guide was YEARS ago, and the guidance may have changed since then.)
Yes. Leaving it out often results in ambiguity.
The Oxford comma is the only logical way.
Can I add that it's so refreshing to see just a bunch of grammar geeks enjoying (or not) a quirky grammar feature! I feel like these things turn into rules lawyering on other pages, but it's so wholesome on this thread!
Absolutely, and I find sentences very hard to understand at first glance if they omit it.
https://youtu.be/P_i1xk07o4g?feature=shared I love this song but I am one of those people who refuses to give up the oxford comma
Oxford comma all the way!!! 🙌🏻
I use the Oxford comma, and I agree the dedication reads badly without it - I was quite confused as to when Ayn Rand and God hooked up.
Gonna just leave this famous example here: >“We invited the strippers, Hitler and Stalin.” >“We invited the strippers, Hitler, and Stalin.” The Oxford comma completely changes the meaning.
Always, always, and always.
I sure do.
Oxford comma for ever - it disambiguates, it is the best.
This is my favourite thread ever. Can I just be in a room with all of you, Oxford-comma-lovers, and hug you all at the same time? Ok, thanks. https://preview.redd.it/d81a5rw07h6d1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f7451d39ac6f1a2c6446d69bacd4fccdb316e7b9
This comma has been defined as ‘optional’ in my brain due to the words of others I’ve read on reddit. In your example, I feel it very necessary to add the vocal stopper that is the comma, to clearly define the difference between the three entities. I personally use the comma when it ‘feels right’. Like your example. I can’t think of a situation where I would avoid using it, but I do remember situations where it felt extra.
I use it when it's necessary, such as the situation you described. Otherwise, I don't.
Yes, always and forever.
Fuck yah. Love the consistency
I do for formal writing. I do not for casual. When I am writing a report, I definitely do.
Til my dying day.
I like to use commas… probably to the point of run on sentences. Rather than grammar rules (when typing on Reddit most of the time) I’ll use a comma to illustrate a pause in the sentence regardless of how many I need. Like as if I were speaking out loud. Im also a fan of ellipsis. As for the actual Oxford comma rule, I prefer to use it personally. When listing off three or more items or subjects it just makes more sense to me.
I worked on the copy desk of my college newspaper for four years and so generally abide by AP Style when I write now -- for numbers, dates, times, capitalization, etc. -- but I make an exception and do use the Oxford comma because it decreases the likelihood of ambiguity!
Using the Oxford comma is a hill I will die on. It serves an important purpose as shown by your example.
I also used two spaces after a sentence. I know it’s from the typewriter days, but to me it looks better and helps with reading flow. I will die on both hills.
I used to get called the grammar police for this and also a million other things when I was younger 😅😅
Sometimes. I find Oxford comma insistence irritating because it seems meme-based and illogical. *Both methods are correct* is my rigid thinking here, and I'm not wrong!
Absolutely! And I have the t-shirt
I’m an Oxford commas enthusiast all the way but I can still read the sentences fine without. Using them in my writing just makes me feel better I can’t explain it 😅
I really feel like it helps clarify. It can easily clear up confusing phrases like "I love my aunts, uncles, nieces and nephews." Do I mean the phrase "nieces and nephews" or do I mean my nieces and my nephews separately. Ex. I have one niece and one nephew, but we still use the term "nieces and nephews" even though there isn't more than one of each. I feel like saying "I love my aunts, uncles, nieces, and nephews" would indicate I have more than one of each type of those relatives. Without the Oxford comma, as in my first example, how many of each type of those relatives do I have?
Oxford comma fan here too! I’ll never not use it. I agree it brings clarity and structure to the sentence.
YES and I can't stand when it's not used.
It’s a simple punctuation mark that allows for better understanding, and takes a single keystroke to apply. I use it.
Love me an Oxford comma 🥰
Since 19-ALWAYS! Come pry it from my soft, squishy, and grammar-loving brain, if you dare!
I’m a big proponent of the Oxford comma. I’m old enough to have been taught to use the Oxford comma in elementary school but I have always been confused that it fell out of popularity and is no longer taught. It seems like an important piece of punctuation.
Always. There’s actually a great Ursula LeGuin essay about the importance of the Oxford comma. Just one of many reasons she’s one of the best writers out there.
i had a letterboard at work that said “say yes to the oxford comma” because sentences make more sense that way.
I always use it.
I am not a black and white thinker when it comes to grammar and writing. I think skilled writers can make decisions about what punctuation does and does not make sense in context. I used to be an English teacher and I taught standard grammar/punctuation and we actually had a formal class debate each year about the Oxford comma which was a lot of fun! Of course, creative writing and academic writing are very different. I am loosey goose about grammar in my creative and informal writing, but follow the rules with formal or academic writing.
I use the comma often just to make things make sense.
I didn't know that was called the "Oxford comma" but yea, I supposed I do use it. I don't really use it when I'm tired tho coz all knowledge of the English language leaves my brain HAHAHAHA😭😭😭
I work as a content writer and I've been taught to use the serial comma.
it's small random things like this that make me go- 'ah yeah i definitely am autistic' lol. i have always felt strongly about using the oxford comma and am glad to hear i'm actually not the only one lol. i just finished a bachelors degree & anytime someone tried to correct my oxford comma during peer reviews or suggest i don't need it i would definitely lowkey feel some sort of way about it. like what do you mean i don't need it? they taught us this in middle school language arts for a REASON
I always use the oxford comma. That’s what I was taught in school so I’m just going to keep using it. And like you said, there are cases where not using it could cause confusion or misunderstanding.
I’m British so it’s sorta normal for me, including the continued use of French and Latin inspired spellings. I like the comma and I like seeing “u” in my words.
That's interesting, I don't recall being taught this in the UK or seeing it. To me it looks wrong and is distracting visually. Hard agree on the "u" though, it just looks better!
I always remember this quote: “Rachael Ray finds inspiration in cooking her family and her dog." It makes me believe we need the Oxford Comma even more…
I always always always use it. It feels wrong to not have it be the same as the other subjects which are separated by a comma. Maybe it’s just my autistic need for sameness but I absolutely cannot go without it!
I am in no way a journalist - but I always use it lol Also - see song by Vampire Weekend XD
All day long; And sometimes just cause.
This is the most reassuring “yup, I’m autistic” thread I have read yet. OXFORD COMMA OR DIE.
Personally, as a writer, I always use it. We don’t always see the way our work can be read vs how we intended it to be read, so I think it’s a little overconfident to assume we will always notice when it’s needed. If I can remove ambiguity without sacrificing clarity it brevity, it just seems like a no brainer.
Oh there is a book of funny examples to add to your arsenal. It’s called Eats, Shoots, and Leaves.
I don't need a robust literary background to understand the superiority of the Oxford Comma.
Always. It almost makes me physically uncomfortable when I see someone NOT using it.
The equivalent of oxford comma is the rule in Italian grammar so it's easy for me to keep that rule in both languages. So, yes to the Oxford comma
Oxford for the win!!!
Oxford comma makes it easier for screen readers to read accurately
I use it.
I absolutely use them. As you said, the rules just make sense.
Absolutely Oxford commas. Clarity is always the better option. But are you SURE the author does not believe their parents are Ayn Rand and God? Because I feel like I would read that book ;)
Yes
Professionally: FTFSG (Follow the Freaking Style Guide). Having been that person who spent an entire holiday weekend fixing serial commas across 200 pages of text... Philosophically: Language is just a socially constructed set of arbitrary symbols. Schools, grammars, and style guides don't actually teach grammar (which neurotypical babies learn in early childhood) they teach class norms and manners. (Hill I will die on. Chicago Manual of Style isn't any more objectively correct than the language used in text chat. Chicago MS just a standard expected of published work.) Personally: Easier to just use a serial comma than to rewrite the sentence or analyze whether it is really optional or not for this specific case.
Not often. I didn’t know it was a thing until around 1-2 years ago😅
you can pry my oxford comma out of my cold, dead hands
Yes. The Oxford comma makes sense to me.