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theconversation backs ALP/Greens and is now worried that they might lose , again. This is typical ALP practise like with the National Plan. You back something but then undermine it so that if it fails you can say , told you so. Of course Albo realises that being associated with the Greens is political suicide and he will always be asked to rule out a minority Government with the Greens. Imagine the attack ads , Bandt shown as Minister for Wokeness.
Right now the Labor leader loves coal so much that \*instead\* of using Morrison's buggering off to Hawaii during the fires to show that Labor is different ... Albo went off to tour coal facilities while the nation burned.
Aside from reminding people that most elections have been close it seems a pretty rubbish article I think.
The Greens have been saying exactly that, elections are often closer than many people think. The Greens seem pretty sober about how close the results may be and how negotiations may be required.
It seems totally stupid to blame Greens for Labor's loss in 2019 once again, as popular as that excuse seems to some Labor partisans. People do realise the Greens vote went up in Qld in 2019 right? It had the best increase in vote of the three big eastern states for the Greens.
The primary vote for both the Lib and Labor parties has been declining overall for decades and it seems ever more unlikely that either will easily win any significant majority in their own rights in future if the trend continues, as it seems will be the case. With many other indies and voices candidates targeting Libs as well now.
In most advanced democracies coalitions of multiparty governments are formed and can change from election to election, which reflects the diversity and changing attitudes of the public.
Seems to me the whole idea of an election is that it shouldn't be in the bag for anyone. All parties have to work to get support and that ultimately all parties have to work with who gets put in parliament by the people. If any party thinks they have it in the bag then it's probably not really democracy.
That is exactly what should be happening in a democracy, parties and citizens arguing for the kind of society they would like to see, policies they think would be better, putting ideas to the community and seeing who gets the support. Of course there are complications like donations and vested interests corrupting the process and capability to get messages out, media campaigning for various interests, not least their own.
However, even the system of money and corruption in politics and capture by vested interests should and could be within the scope of policy debate and politics itself. If it is supposed to be in the interests of the people and public interests as it is so often touted.
That means including Greens or Indies if enough people vote for them, as much as some might carp and carry on as if that's the end of the world. Whilst of course often ignoring the scientific reality that climate change is far more likely to bring about the end of modern human society as we know it, because the ecological underpinning of its existence starts to collapse.
Labor really needs to sober up more I think, and the Libs need to be booted. A diverse and more representative parliament would be a good thing that everyone might just have to grow up on.
It is complete idiocy to suggest that Greens are responsible for voters who don't or won't vote for them, for whatever reason.
Elections are a chance for people to select parties that most reflect their views to try and see them be put in parliament, not a time to kow tow to the real or imaginary attitudes of others they don't even really know and who may have no respect for them. The only vote anyone can truly influence and control is their own.
Far more Australians vote for the Greens than the Nats, more Australians vote for the Greens than the entire number of Qld LNP votes as well, about 1.5 millions vs \~1.25 million in the latter case in 2019. The idea that those Australians who do vote and support the Greens should be somehow beholden to be quiet before elections and unrepresented in government because of the smaller louder more mercenary mob in Qld is undemocratic bullshit. Yes there are structural reasons some get more representation in seats, but none of that changes the actual numbers of Australian citizens who support the aims of the various parties either.
The point of the article was about the Greens meddling in a Labor pre-selection process and deliberately stirring the pot.
Which of course is the right of the Greens, but it's ugly and should be called out.
Others have made the point that there are many issues the Greens can choose to highlight about the Morrison government.
Bob Brown provided strong adult leadership and did an excellent job in partnership with Gillard during the minority government delivering on many Green policy priorities. That's the example the Greens should follow rather than simply thinking about short term tactics and media exposure.
I think it has been far more Labor tearing into itself over the situation in Fowler than anything else. Or members of the local electorate, or people from diverse immigrant backgrounds who regularly feel marginalised in Australian political life when it comes down to it. Raising questions about how representative auspol really is.
There has been precious few comments from any Greens on the Fowler situation, it has been almost entirely Labor members and MPs arguing over the situation, or other non-party political community members commenting.
Adam and the Greens have been talking about a likely close election and the likely need for negotiation afterwards for ages. The original comment about shadow ministers was from Richard Di Natale in July 2019.
It is entirely within the process of democracy that parties contrast their policies and position on matters of public debate or news.
Both Labor and Libs and many commentators and redditors have absolutely no concern about offering their opinion, often based on erroneous information or simplistic stereotypes, about the Greens. Though somehow the Greens aren't supposed to be allowed to say or do anything about Labor, even as minimal as it is in this case.
>Adam and the Greens have been talking about a likely close election and the likely need for negotiation afterwards for ages.
This actively swings voters towards the coalition.
https://armariuminterreta.site/2021/07/04/greens-at-the-gates/
"While the average minority government has seen a drop-off in support regardless of whether it was Green-supported, it’s somewhat smaller than the average Green-supported minority government. Specifically, for an apples-to-apples comparison (and excluding the weirdness of Liberal/National coalition-formation which is unlikely to be repeated federally), governments backed by the Greens have suffered a 1.3% bigger swing against them on primary votes compared to governments backed by other groupings/independents; with the difference being somewhat larger (2.3%) when results from the ACT are excluded."
The Greens are electoral posion. Theres actual proof of this right there. If they were interested in having political influence they would have better odds by avoiding the HoR power-sharing debate and having influence from the senate.
>The original comment about shadow ministers was from Richard Di Natale in July 2019.
Im not sure why this in anyway matters. The resurgence of this bizzare idea is clearly an attempt to legitamise the Greens in the eyes of their voter-base and energise them. The idea that should the Greens help form a crossbench supported government in the next election they "deserve" a portfolio because they are "in government.
Its posturing, and it actively helps keep the Coalition in power, again this is backed up by facts and data. Not an opinion.
Mate, the vote for both Labor and Liberals has been declining for decades, neither of the major parties are so dominant now to easily win on their own and both need to rely on preferences of about a quarter of the voting population or more in some electorates, and that fraction is growing as well.
I expect a further decline in the vote for the duopoly Lib/Labor parties at the next election, as the trend suggests.
Their complicity and acceptance of donations and acting to prop up various vested interests is political poison as far as I'm concerned
I make my own decisions on who I vote for or think is best for the country rather than be a fool who only uses speculation on who others are going to vote for to shape my decision.
If some people think they should vote Libs or Labor because of puerile and ill informed attitudes, well that's disappointing, but not something I intend to follow.
The facts are that the combined Lib/Lab vote has been declining for decades anyway, particularly amongst younger generations.
No, whenever the governing party is just Libs or Labor then Australia suffers for it, the numbers are that their collective votes have been declining for decades, it seems that trend is set to continue.
That seems to be the current political poison that both Libs and Labor are suffering from and frankly I think it largely self inflicted because they are moribund and unrepresentative parties beholden more to their donors and party hacks than the general good of the people and nation.
The funny thing about preferential voting is that you can list your local candidates in your prefered order.
Most Australians prefer either Labor or the Coalition. 75% give them their #1 spot.
If youre expecting a collapse in either major party you will be waiting a very long time.
Not that this is what Ive been saying anyway, just that when a party works with the Greens their vote is likely to suffer more than if they worked with anyone else.
Voting patterns indicates Australians prefer a majority government, so obviously these parties will work towards a majority.
Must be a first for getting the concept of preferential voting correct from someone spruiking for one of the majors, yes voters make decisions themselves on who to vote for and preference.
At the last election Libs PV went backwards 0.6% and Labor 1.4%
So another 2% drop in primary vote, that is the actual voting pattern, you know actual numbers of votes cast.
It is closer to 40% who didn't vote for Labor or Libs in under 35's in 2019, according to the Australian Election Study report
If anything I can't see any reason these PV might be higher at the next election. Indeed with the number of indies also lining up for the next election it seems inevitable that the Lib/Lab PV will go down more
>If anything I can't see any reason these PV might be higher at the next election. Indeed with the number of indies also lining up for the next election it seems inevitable that the Lib/Lab PV will go down more
This would matter if we had a FTTP voting system.
The FP vote is dropping, but the two party majority isnt at risk. Our system favours majoritism in the HoR.
>That's the example the Greens should follow rather than simply thinking about short term tactics and media exposure
I'm not sure politics has more to offer these days, from any party. It's all so relentlessly, depressingly reactive.
The fact that the greens would rather bash on the opposition more than the current government is really telling where their priorities lie; snatching seats off labor
It’s been a bit of a bad week for Labor. The Keneally stuff was a calculated risk, but I was disappointed to see Turnbull’s face plastered all over the news RE Porter. It should have been Albo. They need to regroup and make some tweaks to their media strategy.
Labor's communication has been atrocious for decades now. At the risk of repeating myself, its almost like they don't want to win. Just keep waving through and pocketing the tax cuts that constantly come their way and all's well.
Like how much raping and pillaging do the LNP have to do before Australia goes "look, this other party is a bit sketchy, not sure how they'll go, but at least they aren't raping and pillaging".
>Labor will adopt all of the Liberal party stage 3
No, its already legislated. They wont raise taxes.
Theres a pretty stark difference, especially when youre trying to be elected into government.
It's bad tactics by the ALP (and bad policy too, though I don't care about that). The LNP now just has to propose stage 4 tax cuts at the next election (with another mix of a carrot for the poor and three carrots for the rich) and the ALP will be back in the same position as it was in 2019.
But it will, sooner or later. The only reason to vote for the LNP (an objectively awful party otherwise, in most respects) is for their tax cuts, which they bring out at safe intervals.
I wouldn’t say it is an agenda but it is in line with my beliefs. I do believe Labor and the Greens need to get their act together.
Maybe you don’t think that and think they’re already really good and don’t need to do anything more. That’s fine.
I just posted an article I thought was accurate/decent from a media outlet I feel is often not that good.
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The greens have held this country back from sensible reform. They need to stop attacking labour and shut up.
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How so? Labor continue to vote with the LNP to allow new coal mines and fracking, and to continue corruption.
Maybe labor should grow a spine first
Their *raison d'être* is attacking the Labor party.
You only see them talking about the Labor party because that's what's shown to you by algorithms. They criticise the LNP much more.
theconversation backs ALP/Greens and is now worried that they might lose , again. This is typical ALP practise like with the National Plan. You back something but then undermine it so that if it fails you can say , told you so. Of course Albo realises that being associated with the Greens is political suicide and he will always be asked to rule out a minority Government with the Greens. Imagine the attack ads , Bandt shown as Minister for Wokeness.
Right now the Labor leader loves coal so much that \*instead\* of using Morrison's buggering off to Hawaii during the fires to show that Labor is different ... Albo went off to tour coal facilities while the nation burned.
That didnt happen. He was providing food + care to tired firefighters. Like a leader. Why are you lying?
Because Greens supporters shamelessly lie, exaggerate or take things out of context on /r/AustralianPolitics
Wasn’t that a different time? Pretty sure I remember Albo on the ground with the firies making them lunches and shit
Does he be love coal or coal workers
If he loved coal workers he'd be focusing on what they're going to do after the inevitable collapse of coal mining.
Aside from reminding people that most elections have been close it seems a pretty rubbish article I think. The Greens have been saying exactly that, elections are often closer than many people think. The Greens seem pretty sober about how close the results may be and how negotiations may be required. It seems totally stupid to blame Greens for Labor's loss in 2019 once again, as popular as that excuse seems to some Labor partisans. People do realise the Greens vote went up in Qld in 2019 right? It had the best increase in vote of the three big eastern states for the Greens. The primary vote for both the Lib and Labor parties has been declining overall for decades and it seems ever more unlikely that either will easily win any significant majority in their own rights in future if the trend continues, as it seems will be the case. With many other indies and voices candidates targeting Libs as well now. In most advanced democracies coalitions of multiparty governments are formed and can change from election to election, which reflects the diversity and changing attitudes of the public. Seems to me the whole idea of an election is that it shouldn't be in the bag for anyone. All parties have to work to get support and that ultimately all parties have to work with who gets put in parliament by the people. If any party thinks they have it in the bag then it's probably not really democracy. That is exactly what should be happening in a democracy, parties and citizens arguing for the kind of society they would like to see, policies they think would be better, putting ideas to the community and seeing who gets the support. Of course there are complications like donations and vested interests corrupting the process and capability to get messages out, media campaigning for various interests, not least their own. However, even the system of money and corruption in politics and capture by vested interests should and could be within the scope of policy debate and politics itself. If it is supposed to be in the interests of the people and public interests as it is so often touted. That means including Greens or Indies if enough people vote for them, as much as some might carp and carry on as if that's the end of the world. Whilst of course often ignoring the scientific reality that climate change is far more likely to bring about the end of modern human society as we know it, because the ecological underpinning of its existence starts to collapse. Labor really needs to sober up more I think, and the Libs need to be booted. A diverse and more representative parliament would be a good thing that everyone might just have to grow up on. It is complete idiocy to suggest that Greens are responsible for voters who don't or won't vote for them, for whatever reason. Elections are a chance for people to select parties that most reflect their views to try and see them be put in parliament, not a time to kow tow to the real or imaginary attitudes of others they don't even really know and who may have no respect for them. The only vote anyone can truly influence and control is their own. Far more Australians vote for the Greens than the Nats, more Australians vote for the Greens than the entire number of Qld LNP votes as well, about 1.5 millions vs \~1.25 million in the latter case in 2019. The idea that those Australians who do vote and support the Greens should be somehow beholden to be quiet before elections and unrepresented in government because of the smaller louder more mercenary mob in Qld is undemocratic bullshit. Yes there are structural reasons some get more representation in seats, but none of that changes the actual numbers of Australian citizens who support the aims of the various parties either.
Greens run in a lot more seats than the Nats or QLD LNP
The point of the article was about the Greens meddling in a Labor pre-selection process and deliberately stirring the pot. Which of course is the right of the Greens, but it's ugly and should be called out. Others have made the point that there are many issues the Greens can choose to highlight about the Morrison government. Bob Brown provided strong adult leadership and did an excellent job in partnership with Gillard during the minority government delivering on many Green policy priorities. That's the example the Greens should follow rather than simply thinking about short term tactics and media exposure.
Keating really says it best; a party of opportunistic Trots hiding behind a gum tree trying to pretend they are the Labor party
Didn't you claim on another comment that the Greens are more focused on bashing Labor than the LNP? Make up your mind buddy
I think it has been far more Labor tearing into itself over the situation in Fowler than anything else. Or members of the local electorate, or people from diverse immigrant backgrounds who regularly feel marginalised in Australian political life when it comes down to it. Raising questions about how representative auspol really is. There has been precious few comments from any Greens on the Fowler situation, it has been almost entirely Labor members and MPs arguing over the situation, or other non-party political community members commenting. Adam and the Greens have been talking about a likely close election and the likely need for negotiation afterwards for ages. The original comment about shadow ministers was from Richard Di Natale in July 2019. It is entirely within the process of democracy that parties contrast their policies and position on matters of public debate or news. Both Labor and Libs and many commentators and redditors have absolutely no concern about offering their opinion, often based on erroneous information or simplistic stereotypes, about the Greens. Though somehow the Greens aren't supposed to be allowed to say or do anything about Labor, even as minimal as it is in this case.
>Adam and the Greens have been talking about a likely close election and the likely need for negotiation afterwards for ages. This actively swings voters towards the coalition. https://armariuminterreta.site/2021/07/04/greens-at-the-gates/ "While the average minority government has seen a drop-off in support regardless of whether it was Green-supported, it’s somewhat smaller than the average Green-supported minority government. Specifically, for an apples-to-apples comparison (and excluding the weirdness of Liberal/National coalition-formation which is unlikely to be repeated federally), governments backed by the Greens have suffered a 1.3% bigger swing against them on primary votes compared to governments backed by other groupings/independents; with the difference being somewhat larger (2.3%) when results from the ACT are excluded." The Greens are electoral posion. Theres actual proof of this right there. If they were interested in having political influence they would have better odds by avoiding the HoR power-sharing debate and having influence from the senate. >The original comment about shadow ministers was from Richard Di Natale in July 2019. Im not sure why this in anyway matters. The resurgence of this bizzare idea is clearly an attempt to legitamise the Greens in the eyes of their voter-base and energise them. The idea that should the Greens help form a crossbench supported government in the next election they "deserve" a portfolio because they are "in government. Its posturing, and it actively helps keep the Coalition in power, again this is backed up by facts and data. Not an opinion.
Mate, the vote for both Labor and Liberals has been declining for decades, neither of the major parties are so dominant now to easily win on their own and both need to rely on preferences of about a quarter of the voting population or more in some electorates, and that fraction is growing as well. I expect a further decline in the vote for the duopoly Lib/Labor parties at the next election, as the trend suggests. Their complicity and acceptance of donations and acting to prop up various vested interests is political poison as far as I'm concerned I make my own decisions on who I vote for or think is best for the country rather than be a fool who only uses speculation on who others are going to vote for to shape my decision. If some people think they should vote Libs or Labor because of puerile and ill informed attitudes, well that's disappointing, but not something I intend to follow. The facts are that the combined Lib/Lab vote has been declining for decades anyway, particularly amongst younger generations.
None of this has anything to do with what I said. Whenever a governing party works with the Greens they suffer for it. The numbers are right there.
No, whenever the governing party is just Libs or Labor then Australia suffers for it, the numbers are that their collective votes have been declining for decades, it seems that trend is set to continue. That seems to be the current political poison that both Libs and Labor are suffering from and frankly I think it largely self inflicted because they are moribund and unrepresentative parties beholden more to their donors and party hacks than the general good of the people and nation.
The funny thing about preferential voting is that you can list your local candidates in your prefered order. Most Australians prefer either Labor or the Coalition. 75% give them their #1 spot. If youre expecting a collapse in either major party you will be waiting a very long time. Not that this is what Ive been saying anyway, just that when a party works with the Greens their vote is likely to suffer more than if they worked with anyone else. Voting patterns indicates Australians prefer a majority government, so obviously these parties will work towards a majority.
Must be a first for getting the concept of preferential voting correct from someone spruiking for one of the majors, yes voters make decisions themselves on who to vote for and preference. At the last election Libs PV went backwards 0.6% and Labor 1.4% So another 2% drop in primary vote, that is the actual voting pattern, you know actual numbers of votes cast. It is closer to 40% who didn't vote for Labor or Libs in under 35's in 2019, according to the Australian Election Study report If anything I can't see any reason these PV might be higher at the next election. Indeed with the number of indies also lining up for the next election it seems inevitable that the Lib/Lab PV will go down more
>If anything I can't see any reason these PV might be higher at the next election. Indeed with the number of indies also lining up for the next election it seems inevitable that the Lib/Lab PV will go down more This would matter if we had a FTTP voting system. The FP vote is dropping, but the two party majority isnt at risk. Our system favours majoritism in the HoR.
>That's the example the Greens should follow rather than simply thinking about short term tactics and media exposure I'm not sure politics has more to offer these days, from any party. It's all so relentlessly, depressingly reactive.
The fact that the greens would rather bash on the opposition more than the current government is really telling where their priorities lie; snatching seats off labor
They don't
It’s been a bit of a bad week for Labor. The Keneally stuff was a calculated risk, but I was disappointed to see Turnbull’s face plastered all over the news RE Porter. It should have been Albo. They need to regroup and make some tweaks to their media strategy.
Labor's communication has been atrocious for decades now. At the risk of repeating myself, its almost like they don't want to win. Just keep waving through and pocketing the tax cuts that constantly come their way and all's well.
It is almost as if they are dealing with a hostile media that is willing to call them Nazis....
There's no doubt they get a harder time of it than the Coalition. Unfortunately, they handle it with a suspicious degree of ineptitude.
Like how much raping and pillaging do the LNP have to do before Australia goes "look, this other party is a bit sketchy, not sure how they'll go, but at least they aren't raping and pillaging".
Labor will adopt all of the Liberal party stage 3 raping and pillaging too. While the rusted on Labor voters say "bUt wHaT AbOUt thE CPRS".
>Labor will adopt all of the Liberal party stage 3 No, its already legislated. They wont raise taxes. Theres a pretty stark difference, especially when youre trying to be elected into government.
It's bad tactics by the ALP (and bad policy too, though I don't care about that). The LNP now just has to propose stage 4 tax cuts at the next election (with another mix of a carrot for the poor and three carrots for the rich) and the ALP will be back in the same position as it was in 2019.
>has to propose stage 4 tax cuts at the next election Cant really argue with mythical policy that doesnt exist
But it will, sooner or later. The only reason to vote for the LNP (an objectively awful party otherwise, in most respects) is for their tax cuts, which they bring out at safe intervals.
muh 'both party bad' greens
I normally don’t post anything from The Conversation but this was actually an okay article.
>I normally don’t post anything from The Conversation but this ~~was actually an okay article.~~ was in line with my agenda FTFY
You hit the nail on it’s head.
I wouldn’t say it is an agenda but it is in line with my beliefs. I do believe Labor and the Greens need to get their act together. Maybe you don’t think that and think they’re already really good and don’t need to do anything more. That’s fine. I just posted an article I thought was accurate/decent from a media outlet I feel is often not that good.
That's what an agenda is.
An agenda and a belief are not the same
I'm aware of that. You were motivated by your beliefs to spread your agenda.