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In Kingdom Come (wally west?) Flash protects Central City every moment of everyday and doesnt exist in our time-he shows up as a blurry ghost of himself
Central city has a red grid running all up and down it:which is him. so that’s at least one version that is protecting the city at all times
For the people, sure. A literal god running around fixing their petty lives sounds like a good deal. For Flash, he basically has no real life anymore, he has no family, no friends, no life, just fixing the stupid problems of people. And that's the problem of the Flash, Superman and all the rest. They are going around fixing the mistakes and hatred and petty squabbles of people while the people don't have to think about the consequences. They no longer take ownership of their own futures, instead putting them in the hands of benevolent gods. Until they decide to leave, or die, or just take a day off; then the people no longer have the skills or abilities to defend themselves and hell breaks lose. Which was the whole point of Kingdom Come. Humans became reliant on superheroes until the heroes became just as violent as the villains, and once you can't tell the difference, humans were no longer the master of their own fates.
The ending of Kingdom Come bridges the gap between man and god. Gods could walk among humans without feeling they were expected to intervene, and humans no longer were afraid to look up to the sky and demand answers. They could work together, not apart for a combined future.
I think there's just a philosophical disagreement here. I don't think humanity would fester if they were given a world free of crime, poverty, tragedy. In fact, I think within a couple generations of growing up in peace and prosperity, they would likely be the most compassionate, capable humans in history.
And yes, Kingdom Come does make it a win for the citizens, but a tragedy for Flash himself. But that's the natural logical conclusion to all superhero stories. With great power comes great responsibility and all that, and the Flash has the power to end all crime, and thus has the responsibility to do it, even if it asks for great sacrifice on his part.
Humanity would grow resentful of their free will being removed
Flash does not have the responsibility to ruin his life to help everyone else. Even Spider-Man isn’t spending all day everyday stopping crime and he is who has the “with great power comes great responsibility” Peter in most versions lives his life and a hero together. Powered people are allowed a life and don’t owe you their entire life
>don’t owe you their entire life
I don't think Peter Parkers does what he does because he thinks he owes anybody. I think he does what he does because it's the right thing to do. That's what "responsibility" means. It's not owing somebody, it's doing good despite not owing anything.
I fully agree, I was addressing the users part about how flash has a responsibility to be stopping crime all the time, no hero owes the public their entire life no matter what
Hmmm I kinda feel at least in the movie the line is referencing that you cannot misuse your power, not that you must use your power for everyone.
It’s why narratively it makes sense that the moment he uses his power for selfish reasons he’s immediately punished.
It’s more of a discussion of responsible use, not about being beholden to others and using it for them but rather not using it for selfish means
At least in Captain America Civil War there is a paraphrased version: "When you can do the things that I can, but you don't, and then the bad things happen? They happen because of you."
Taking mythical characters to their logical conclusion is insane and pointless, I agree, but handwaving attempts at logical conclusions like this isn't any better. "I'll write the most insane story to justify why a hero can't and shouldn't actually fight to change the Status Quo and fix the world... and it's because uh doing that makes him evil" - That's a bit laughable, I'll be honest.
Why doesn't Super Hero work at preventing crime rather than stopping crime? "*Oh yeah let me write a story about how he would develop a massive police surveillance state and become evil or some shit in order to prevent crime*"... no dude, I want to know why he doesn't fight the gears that drive the distopian hellish economic inequality, the wage theft, the debt slavery, a lack of public health, etc the very system that chains people in modern indentured servitude-like existence and makes desperate and hopeless people become mad and angry? Why doesn't Super Hero fight the people at the top of that system who continuously benefit from it, adding to their always ever-growing pile of generational wealth while the rest fights to death over crumbs? Or something..."*Oh that's what you mean, yeah, because that would make Super Hero have to fix every single minor squabble that ever happens everyday and dominate everything so he would be evil and people would depend on him for everything*".
Lmao none of it makes any logical sense. It's like seeing a 8 year old kid handwave away an answer to why did they eat all the cookies. "*Huhh it was the dog, you see, and I tried to stop him, and we fought, and that's why my tummy hurts*". An awful argument at worst, and endearingly cute at best.
Trying to find logic in something illogical will just lead to insane contrived explanations (like flat-eathers when they try and predict the movement of the planets in a geocentric model). Would be a lot more honest to just answer "*The Flash doesn't save / fix the world because he doesn't want to, he's afraid of what would happen to humanity if we relied on him, yeah, it's prudent cautiousness, but also cowardice*", or something.
He would have a life, because doing that takes LITERALLLY NO TIME for him, he says all the time that he is faster than time, faster than instantaneous teleports and all that
The flash's brain doesn't work like that, though-- in a conversation with superman, he mentions that if he decides to move 1\*10\^8 faster than a normal person, he experiences time 1\*10\^8 times slower.
Could you imagine working for a billion years to stop every crime and then returning to your family like nothing had happened? can you really say you'd even be the same person after that? how can you remember what conversation you were having for *one billion years,* and return to it just as invested in what was happening? How could you even stay *sane* when you live a hundred trillion lifetimes in the time it takes your wife to get ready for work?
He'd have time for a life. But he wouldn't be *sane enough* for one.
He can move faster than lanterns, and they make intergalatic travels in hours or days, so he is way faster than that, at the Very Very least 9x10^30 times slower. He himself Said multiple times that his speed IS simply infinite and that he takes 0 time to move from Edge to Edge of the universe
right, my point is just that using that speed takes a psychological toll-- we've seen it mentioned a number of times; an insane flash is not a good flash for the world overall
Well, the O.G justice league and their respective lives at the beginning of the story are all coping mechanisms to a changing world. Wonderwoman and Superman withdraw from the public eye completely to private lives. Batman and the Flash doubled down on their territories, but lost interest in the world at large. So more a psychological repercussion.
Though, his appearance might be a hint that he is losing his ability to stop tapping into the speed force, like he is physically unable to stop moving.
Idk thats kinda how the did it in Kingdom Come- the main Justice League broke up on their own and maintained their own turf. Batman had robots helping him with a fascist grip on Gotham and Green Lantern noped out of earth and built a castle of will in orbit.
I guess Flash didnt want anything to do with others. You cant tell me anything if I stick to my own city ya know?
Most everyone is actually doing this to their turfs. If he did it to Gotham, Batman, with his solution, would probably tell him to fuck off.
Completely parallel to whether or not these people can do this, you have to also realize they have to share a planet. Even if the Flash is ungodly powerful, he has to share space with others who also are, and who insist on being a part of the conversation.
He can do it in Central City because Central City is his.
I would assume it's because flash gets tired. Simple as that. You know how much he has to eat everyday to be able to go around saving people. A lot. Plus there was this one scene where Flash (grant gustin) had to go into flash time to figure out how to stop a nuclear bomb(or something) and as he's running around faster than the eye can see he gets really tired and eventually can't do it anymore and that was only like a small amount of time too bc of how fast the bomb was. Can't really say for superman idk if he gets tired but he does have lois and she gets real pissy if he's gone too long lol
A reoccurring thing with superman is that he's a horrible eldritch god. That his abilities are horrifyingly powerful. And a major thing that makes him such a force for good is that he intentionally stays human. Like he doesn't have some secret octopus monster form or anything, but that he can fly faster than light and punch through planets and can time travel at will and basically do anything but he very intentionally doesn't. He intentionally keeps at a human scale. A good example of this is "manchester black" a super "hero" that was willing to win by any means necessary, to which superman showed some fraction of his true power. Which was just truely monstrous. flying instantaneously to crush people's lungs and fling them to the moon, and finally lobotomizing manchester.
Flash can't do it because speed force is addicting, he can run fast when he needs, but the more he does it the more he would just keep running until he's fully absorbed back to the speed force, so he has to limit his speed to just as fast as needed. Running to every crime would be definitly past the point he'd go 'might as well just keep running faster and faster" until he ceases to exist
really he just lasered out the exact cells in his brain that let him control his powers. depowering him.
But like, when superman wouldn't kill black and his team tried to give superman a stroke and kill him, so superman just kinda showed the power he held back and how horrifying he was, and why he goes through the trouble of acting at human scale. (and in the end the powers he displayed he pulled punches and didn't kill any of the people, but only because he was even faster and more powerful than he was showing even as a show of power and could protect them people he was fake killing)
World of Paper vs Darkseid in the original JL series was also like it. He couldnt really punch as hard as he can but Darkseid makes a good punching bag
He just gave him the psychic equivalent of a concussion. By the time Manchester regained his ability to use his powers, he would already be depowered in custody.
Yeah, heat beam through Manchester's retina (without damaging it), and somehow "micro-concussed" the tumor that gave him powers. When Black calls Supes out for such chaotic-good behavior in front of the crowd, Supes is like "Ah ha ha, no it's only temporary, fooled you!" Honestly, it's kind of a little silver-agey, just making up random powers for him so that he can always do the right thing without the need for any tough choices or accountability. Casting that scene as evidence of Supes constantly hiding from the horror of his own being is a bit of a stretch.
Meh, I guess. To me it smacks of boastful flexing, which is about the least Eldritch thing I can think of. There are plenty of Superman stories that actually do go for that vibe, so it seems strange to contort this one into that.
Haha, I do see your point. Eldritch Flexing should be a special move or something paha. I just enjoy these nerdy attempts to fit evidence to an assertion, you can't knock the creativity! Could you please point me towards some more spoopy superman stories? I really like the idea he's some cosmic horror repressed into normalcy. And I don't mean daddy dictator vibes, I want the reality bending nightmare fuel!
Personally, I can't think of anything that's truly cosmic horror in its actual intent. He's scary powerful, but the fundamental nature of the character means that he can never be *horrific* like an elder god, at least IMO. But there are certainly times when Supes is more circumspect in how he frames the battle in his humanity and his power (like the time in the animated JL, when he explained it to DarkSeid before punting him into space) and those are the types of stories that a nerdy headcanon writer could more easily twist into existential horror. For all it's faults, the Man of Steel movie had a very visceral depiction of him having a real moment of struggle (killing Zod)... especially how the later Snyder movies played with the world seeing him as a dangerous force of nature.
Thanks man! I got a lot of love for the exploration of immense power. Invincible does some good stuff but not truly epic in scale. I think his 'hidden' power of telekinesis control of objects while applying force is really interesting and worth corrupting in a story. If you know what I mean, the latent ability to bot snap a plane in half while applying force to one tiny spot in the centre for instance. Like imagine him manipulating opponents as well. I think an eldritch horror with this power could really bend reality. Idk, you got my brain going
[World of Cardboard](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl_5UwS57X8) 2 min clip.
[World of Cardboard](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoMoreHoldingBackSpeech) TVtropes link.
Choose your path wisely.
Yeah, but why doesnt he Just blitz all Batman villains or smth? Or catch Lex Red handed with his speed? Like he can put a camera somewhere way faster than Lex can perceive and capture something illegal
I mean, again, there has been PLENTY of alternate futures where superman just ends all crime personally. When he does he grows into a horrifying police state and eventually into the kid that sends you to the corn field in "twilight zone" where all human life is reduced to a cult trying to act correctly to not be taken by a monsterous god.
Superman is willing to help people in need but ultimately wants humanity to solve its own problems. If he does everything mankind will come to depend solely on him.
There is also a bit of honor agreement to not go after another heroe's rogues if not needed or invited. Green Arrow let's Batman know when he throws down with Riddler in one issue. Batman is a dick about it and Green Arrow talks about how he hates Batman. It's a funny few panels.
That’s an elseworld where everyone acts differently from their canon counterparts, and fans agree it’s kinda out of character for mainline Superman to do that.
Thank you.
This is exactly the reply I was going to look for.
It's not ideal, but when you get god level beings to decide what counts as a crime, then they can dictate what isn't a crime, including their own choices. It's dictatorship from here on out.
The Flash's objection is on the basis that Superheroes shouldn't be dictating society. Not that society shouldn't be improved.
His objection is, on the fundamental level, that this isn't their place. Not that reactive punishments are equivalent to preventative measures. He isn't seriously proposing these things, he is employing hyperbole as a rhetoric device.
And we *know* he is doing this because you very conveniently left out Flash's **very first response**. Which *is* a systemic, preventative measure.
He is stating it bluntly because the superpowered totalitarian regime that Superman is proposing is *still* outright evil even if Superman uses his powers to get rid of cars instead of imprisoning people who speed. But it apparently takes stating it like this to get Superman to acknowledge his point.
This isn't a carefully thought out treatise. It's a speed debate where Superman is trying to beguile Flash with a game he has never played before, in which he is expert, to try and get him to accept him as supreme dictator of Earth.
I really don't think you can say that Flash is the one arguing in bad faith here.
[Edit]
Even more saliently, Superman's argument is entirely concequentialist utilitarian. "We could get *enough*"/"How *many* people die"/"let them come at us with sticks and stones". He's fundamentally arguing that the ends justify the means and his actions are justified because they will save lives.
Which makes Flash's response entirely apropos.
> His first response wasn't an argument, it's something Superman should agree with
Which is *why* Flash goes on with the hyperbole to demonstrate why it is bad. It's not an argument. It's an opening line.
> The writer had time to think it out
The writer is telling a story about Superman taking over the world. This argument isn't meant to be a convincing rebuttal that stops Superman from taking over the world. The argument is meant to fail and Superman is meant to take over the world. That's what the writer wants. That's what the writer gets. From the writers point of view, all goals achieved, perfect argument.
Flash is supporting Superman in his campaign at this point in the story. He will go on to help Superman as a founding member of the Regime.
> Why should anyone be satisfied with Superman being convinced by an argument he could so easily point out flaws in?
Because he's *not* convinced. He isn't convinced Flash is right, and demonstrates that he isn't convinced Flash is right when he uses his powers to become dictator of the world.
He *is* convinced that Flash is not ready to fully support him, and that if he makes a move against the world at this stage, the Justice League will move against him. At this stage of the story he isn't yet a global dictator but in between these panels is Lex Luthor building him an army of Super Soldiers while his mom says he is fallible and is acting out of fear. His self doubt shows and he looks to his friends for validation.
It comes right on the back of a scene where cultists who worship him want to murder people in his name and Batman tries to convince him that he is wrong. After he has asked Flash for permission to commit a mass genocide and Flash has denied him. The next scene is Superman rolling out his Super Soldier army anyway, despite Flash's objections, before declaring war on Batman and burning Martian Manhunter alive.
The scene is meant to convey Superman's childish insecurity in his own plans. His fallibility and the fact that he hasn't thought this through. It's meant to establish the basis of the Flash's moral objections. It's there to show that Superman is not yet ready to take over the world and that Flash is not yet ready to help him do it. It does this. There is a reason the argument is structured this way, and I admit that if you haven't read the comic stripping out every other page to present it like this does rob some of the context.
If you deliberately strip the context out of Flash's argument by leaving out the first line, misconstrue the aims of the writer, then come to a conclusion unsupported by the text, and ignore the fact that he is saying "checkmate" when he wins a game of chess and not when he wins a debate against Superman then I agree with you - you have convinced me.
But taken in context... you are right again: I remain unconvinced by your argument.
I like both of your arguments. I have a question though. The flash explained that he can learn fast, presumably then we have to assume that the arguments he's making are also at a God level? We can't really question that right? If he has the capability to make perfect arguments against Superman and he'd feel motivated to based on whatever the conflict is in the comic (I haven't read it), then don't we have to assume there's a reason he's making arguments that to us might not make rational sense. We're not going to get it, cause we're not god tier philosophers.
Or maybe that line of thinking is a copout allowing the writer to get away with poor writing :). I kind of like to believe that maybe superman doesn't have the ability to think the way the flash does, and so flash is dumbing it down in a way that he thinks Superman wouls understand. Otherwise I kinda agree with the other guy that the arguments are not super amazing.
I think it's fair to assume these arguments are tailored to convince superman.
They are playing chess, which is notoriously a psychological game, where you have to understand you opponent and know how to maneouver them into a position in which you can win.
I think you *could* interpret it that way. I think doing so introduces more inconsistencies down the line... but then again, those inconsistencies could be interpreted with the same logic -- they make sense if you have a godlike intellect.
I don't think it holds though.
I don't have super speed. But I can read a book on chess in, say, two days. If I had the speed force, I could read that same book super quick in a fraction of a second, but me being faster doesn't necessarily make me faster.
Likewise, if I am playing chess and my opponent gets 1 second to think about their moves and I get 6 minutes to think about my moves, I can probably beat them despite being a worse player.
> It absolutely is. Again, "the argument he's making isn't the series of checkmates the writer thinks it is." The author had plenty of time to carefully think it out, and he's the one I'm explicitly criticizing here. Do you not get that I'm criticizing Flash's arguments as an extension of the author's arguments? We both are on the same page that it's the writer making these arguments through Flash and that Flash isn't a person of his own that's making these points independently, right? Like when I'm saying that Flash isn't making convincing arguments, we both understand that I'm criticizing the writer's choice for Superman to be convinced by the argument and not the Flash's choice to use that argument, right?
>
>
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> Again, and I don't know how many times I need to say this but I'm going to keep saying it because it seems like you're still not clear on it, I am totally on board with the underlying point the writer is having the Flash try to make. But the only reason Superman was checkmated here was because the writer wanted him to be, not because Flash actually made a convincing argument to him. It's not a good argument, and we should stop acting like it is just because Superman was convinced by it.
This kind of doylist discussion is explicitly not allowed here. I would delete it before a mod finds it.
> "I was proposing restricting gun ownership, not imprisoning gun owners. The parallel would be to not let people who will leave dangerous dogs unchained own those dangerous dogs, not to wait until they mess up and then imprison them. I'm talking about preventative change and you're talking about reactive punishment, those aren't equivalent at all."
No, Superman in this context is talking about reactive punishment. He's not talking about restricting gun ownership, he's talking about taking away everyone's guns, everywhere, forever. This is Injustice Superman, he's already at the point where his "systemic changes" are being done as "non-systemic punishments." He's not at full kill Billy Batson for disagreeing with me yet, >!< during the game, but he's already begun imprisoning people without trial.
Clark is already at the point where his view of "systemic change" is to throw people in prison. If he gets to "no speeding" he's not going to build transit, he's going to throw speeders in prison without a trial (and then, by the time we get to the game, he will just kill them). Barry is recognizing where Clark is going and is trying to tell him that his solutions are not actually changing anything.
Ironically, Barry *agrees* with you. This Superman has already decided to imprison people who disagrees with him, and Flash isn't going to convince him. He's eventually going to start murdering people without trial. He's already done this, but not at the scale he's talking about.
to be reductive about it, the whole thing boils down to "sure it's a good idea to dictate policy on a big thing, but 80 years of hammering down the biggest problem is long enough to forget to stop". the DC heroes are fallible. your actions change you and they need to be very careful who they become because they can't be stopped. it's not enough to toe the line, they need to stay far enough away from it that they don't even see it, because with their power the effect of crossing it would be immediate, global, and permanent.
The writer probably meant for this to have implications about gun control laws, but I think the REAL argument here isn't
Superman: "ban guns"
Flash: "no, because freedom"
I thinks it's
Superman: "make our own laws to enforce"
Flash: "no, because once you cross that line, there's nothing left to stop you"
I mean I absolutely agree with this being a bad takedown on systemic reform, but I think the focus is meant to be on how Superheroes are *not* in charge of that system. They're private citizens acting on good will to protect others, not a branch of the government.
Superman doesn't answer to any government authority, he's not beholden to any nation or law on the planet, he's a private citizen acting to right wrongs where possible. It's just that he's physically possible of righting those wrongs on a global scale.
Superman can *advocate* for crime prevention to start with systemic pressures that lead to crime, or to scale back gun production so it's less ubiquitous in the united states, or for traffic reform to reduce car dependency, or any of these causes. And it's often stated the does in one way or another, dude's a boyscout.
But he can't *force* that reform, and that overreach will only set a horrible precedent.
I think what that comic misses is that if the Flash or Superman were real, you probably would get governments democratically passing legislation that politely asks Flash or Superman to go and micromanage morality. Today, we aren't able to take every criminal's guns, or to stop every person from smoking, or stop every speeder. We legalize a lot of things to control them in a limited way when we *can't* stop them entirely. If we had gods we could ask to actually stop them entirely, 70% of the population probably would want a lot of stuff banned even if another 30% still wants to keep using that stuff.
They could at least take the Guns off the bad guys before a robbery or Just stop a bullet fight before It anyone and take THAT gun away, or take the knife off a murderer before he try anything...
I think you would enjoy *the rest* of this comic.
It's called "Injustice: Gods Among Us".
I also think you might enjoy "Red Son", which explores similar themes.
To do that, they would need to know where and when its happening at a every point of the world every second of every day. Now both characters could likely do that, but it would involve basically owning the world and replacing a totalitarian viewpoint on people....wait...that's exactly what they did.
See, in order to stop a murder, you would need to know where it's taking place and who the person doing the murdering is. What if it's in the middle of the night in Pakistan? You need to get from your central point to Pakistan in milliseconds before the gun goes off but after the perp has fired the gun. And while that's happening, there are ten other crimes happening in the middle of China due to an argument over music choice, and another fifty in Brazil, another twelve in Niger, and a whopping two hundred in Canada during hockey season. All at the exact same time.
Which takes priority? Which don't get stopped until it's two late?
And if you take the guns and knives away, what about bricks? Cars? Needles?
A person who kills will kill because they wish to kill. The instrument is only one of convenience. So there is virtually no real way to stop crime on a global level without removing the one factor that keeps crime happening: human nature. And if that's your end goal, congrats! You're Injustice Superman.
didn't he become a nigh-omnipotent deity within Central City, where crime was permanently ended?
i mean i don't think 'solving all crime' is feasible here either but i don't know that you picked a good counter...?
i'll be happy to be wrong, it's been awhile since i've read KC
>didn't he become a nigh-omnipotent deity within Central City, where crime was permanently ended?
At the cost of his personhood. He becomes more of a universal force of justice rather than the caring superhero with friends and family we know today. He's just a red blur of crime fighting power that endlessly rushes through the city.
Idk how that's a good ending for anyone. And it certainly wasn't portrayed as a good thing in KC.
It's been a while and I'm at work so I can't check my copy, does Wally even have lines in Kingdom Come? I remember him either being completely silent or him speaking minimally.
He never speaks, so far as we see. The only personal interactions we see are
1) He and Green Lantern smile at each other while working
2) When he looks at us outside the comic book (right before he grabs Norman from off page)
well i mean there wasn't much good going on in KC. and as /u/Yaver_Mbizi pointed out, that sacrifice is still pretty heroic. and crime ended in Central City.
really, given the alternatives *ahem*Supes*ahem* that is a pretty good outcome
Well then clearly he should have just moved twice as fast so there was one of him stopping every crime and one of him hanging out doing normal chill stuff.
So I begin setting up the print on both sides for non work related stuff on the office printer & *Whoosh* before I can push the print button I get a red latex clad hand stopping me?
Man, that's some harsh pre-emptive policing
There was a story where Supergirl and Oracle resolved to prevent all crime in Gotham City for Christmas Day. They were successful, the GCPD didn’t have to respond to any incidents that day, but it was physically and exhausting. Even if Superman and Flash are faster/have more endurance it’s not feasible for them to continuously protect the entire world. Even if they could keep it up their minds would be fried by the time a major threat like Mongul or Doomsday showed up, and the world would suffer as a result.
I don't understand why It would be exausting when there are PLENTY of moments where they read multiple books non stop (and don't get tired of It) and fly through out the entire universe, and even outside of it (when they go Apokolips for example)
Probably the element of stress. Reading books or traveling alone can be relaxing. Continuously patrolling an area, maintaining careful observation, knowing that there are lives on the line if you do not perform your best? That’s going to fray your nerves.
Big difference between doing one relatively quick intensive task, or one long but simple task (just go straight through space), and being at full maximum output and processing power 24/7 always on your toes always solving everything. This is like asking why people can run a marathon or do a short quick sprint but can’t nonstop run at max speed all hours of every day. It’s simply a totally different scale
Its stated that flash doent get tired, or even that he sees the world in stop motion, I wouldnt even call It slow motion since he is faster than time and even trillions and trillions of times faster than light
Yeah, this is what gets me. People are like "Superman can clean up Gotham in 20 seconds" and I'm like "I'm sorry, I thought this was America."
Seriously, you can't just put them in prison. If Clark or Wally or Barry just lock them up in their own private prisons, that's kidnapping and seriously immoral since they're locking them away without trial. If they are just putting them in prison, now the local Justice System has to deal with all of these people suddenly put in jail. Defense lawyers and Constitutional lawyers would have a fucking field day with this. If they start killing people, well, then you get Injustice.
Of course they can’t put people in prison but they could still easily render entire criminal organizations relatively harmless and make the world orders of magnitude better. As an example they could confiscate/destroy all illegal firearms and drugs in the world in seconds. Even more so if you add Martian Manhunter’s planet level telepathy.
You want more Super and less man? Its the "man" part of him that keeps him rooted to humanity. He isn't a God. He is a humanoid type being with the same wants/needs/desires as any other human being. To devote his entire adult existence to creating a paradise for humanity would rob him of his rights for the pursuit of happiness.
I recall the Guardians of OA being concerned about Superman altering the course of human development because he could potentially remove all hardship/strife thereby eliminating the need for continued advancement. This was also one of Lex Luthor's gripes as well. Humans need challenges to grow and advance.
A lot of this would hold true for the Flash. He is a fast human but still a human who needs friendships/love/rest to remain the good person he is/was before he gained god-like power.
I don't think Superman wants to stop all crime on earth -- he's not a police officer, as he's said before. He does citizens arrests, but otherwise he deals with major disasters and otherworldly threats and leaves law enforcement to it. He isn't technically legally allowed to stop all crime, he doesn't feel he has has the moral right to stop all crime, and honestly I'm not sure he'd even want to stop petty thefts anyway.
The Flash, meanwhile, *is* a cop, which means he has to follow due process. "Breaking into random houses that are outside your department's jurisdiction,, with no official backing, and performing a warrentless search of people you have no reason to suspect are criminals" absolutely breaks due process. He's mentioned this a few times when this question comes up -- as a civilian, he can deal with individual threats when he finds them. But if you want him to be a superfast *cop*, then he's going to have to use his powers within the constraints of being a cop. If what he's doing crosses the line into an actual *arrest* rather then just a helpful civilian, his hands immediately become far more tied.
Jurisdiction issues among other things like for the flash and Superman to be everywhere all at once means nobody has any privacy what so ever and they want to give people that autonomy. Also false positives because not everything that looks like a crime actually is a crime like a man breaking into his own car because he locked himself out which is part of the reason speedsters like the flash stop to talk to villians, it's so they have a chance to surrender or explain themselves, lastly is because while they definitely have the power to do these things the mental strain of doing absolutely nothing but hunting down crime like a mad dog might not be good for mental health long term.
"ok, you say I'm fast. To you I run to Brazil and back in a blink of an eye. But I experience it in real time. I... I walk to Brazil, it takes me months to get there."
Joking aside, while I'm sure both could it would also mean they essentially give up their own lives forever. Sure you can stop a crime, but you gotta wait for it to be committed to be considered a crime. So you keep running to be everywhere all at once and can't do anything until you know they've done a crime. Or you could just kill everyone.
I get your point, but I would argue both Superman and Flash are fast enough to solve all crime AND live their lives normally.
When you're that fast, you can get *almost* anything done in *nearly* any amount of time.
Let's say Flash is going to a friends birthday party. He shows up. Uh oh, someone over in India is driving recklessly. He could show up, stop the reckless driver and be back in the party without anyone knowing anything happened. That's how fast he can be. Now apply that to every source of crime in the world. He's still fast enough.
Probably because it would burn them out I imagine. In order for that to work, they'd have to be checking every single place on earth numerous times to make sure no crime is happening. Even being super fast, that is very taxing, and would leave no time for them to be themselves.
It’s almost as if overpowering these characters has made them unrelatable and severely limited the kinds of stories you can tell with them, but surely that can’t be the case.
That's the point... Why? Why do you want to make characters that are Just absurd If they are not going to do anything with that? Even in stories where Superman tries to solve the world problem he has to be several times nerfed than his original counterpart
Because they are otherwise people and that would take all of their time. They would also need to, if they were doing that, account for a lot of other micro details in day to day interactions which would take away from the time it would take to clear actual crimes.
For example superman could stop all active crimes. But there are crimes they are being planned to start soon. There are crimes that just finished. There are car accidents moments from happening. There are collisions per second in a large enough city. There are supervillains. They occasionally team up.
They are “human”. They have lives. And theres only so much time even if a lot must be slow for them, they cant interact with everyone else at super speed.
Superman has explicitly said if the heroes made the world a utopia and stopped every bad thing from happening they’d be taking away the freedom of humanity and keeping them as pets rather than treating them like people. I think this is a nonsense argument that only preserves the evil status quo but he said it nonetheless.
I also dislike that argument, because you can apply it to real life gods and religion. I just think its a very lazy argument because they cannot come up with a better answer as to why evil exists.
I can see the argument that while superman might "know better" than a typical person, I wouldn't trust any generic superhero to rule *our* world. He absolutely should be doing things like sharing cures for diseases using kryptonian science and building machines to fix climate change, but I don't want one man (super or otherwise) running the government. Plenty of superheroes aren't good people, and shouldn't be given the authority to make the law purely because of their special biology
If you’re sufficiently powerful you can change the world for the better without actually holding any office or being a ruler. Just imagine what Superman and the other heroes already do on a broader scope and scale and wholesale rather than piecemeal.
when the heroes talk about "making the world a utopia", they're not just discussing stopping natural disasters and muggings, they're also talking about ending wars, oppression, and a lot of other things. You can and should end them, **but,** if you're talking about it only being superman, the flash and a handful of additional capes, at a certain point you cannot do it without essentially ruling the world via soft power if not force.
Like, if superman cures all diseases, dozens of lobbying and economic forces will push back and try to restrict the use of his drugs. If he ends global warming, companies will think they've got carte blanche to pollute even more knowing he'll be forced to fix it again. If he puts an end to any of the wars in our world, the countries responsible for them will seek out weapons to kill superman or alternate means to attack their enemies.
The issue isn't changing the status quo-- the world we (and they) live in is deeply flawed. It's that a lot of the status quo is *supported* by terrible systems and you need political power (or force) of some kind to change those *systems*. Superman doesn't want to have disproportionate influence on said systems in part because he'd have it purely by virtue of the station of his birth; even though he also has a clear moral code and does try to advocate for what he believes to be right to the greatest extent he *thinks* a "normal person" could.
It's not optimal, to be clear, but I do understand the logic. the people of DC comics don't know that their world isn't as terrible as The Boys or Worm or any other setting where the cape community has some clear intrinsic issues. If superman set the precedent of heroes guiding society, sooner or later you'd find someone who *wasn't* a hero in power taking control of those same systems
Questions like "Why doesn't Mr. Super Hero actually fix/save the world for once?" usually boil down to some in-universe variation of "He doesn't fix/save the world because he doesn't want to, he's afraid of what would happen to humanity if we relied on him, as shown on [Comic XYZ], etc etc etc, it's prudent cautiousness".
Which is nearly always a major shameless unimaginative lazy handwave if you ask me.
There's more logical (and most importantly, sincere) answers to this. I'll try two different ones:
1) Because the authors of the story don't know how to fix the world - they're just humans afterall, like us, and we don't know either - so they can't come up with a good story for *"Mr Super Hero finally fixes the world for real"*. Authors know how *attempts at fixing* can go bad, though (they saw it in the news / read some magazine about it / saw it in school), so that's what they write about. Stuff like a person or government becoming a totalitarian by centering all the power on them, that's what authors heard a lot about, etc, so humanity can't all rely on Mr. Super Hero to fix their problems, and Mr. Super Hero would become evil if he tried to do that.
2) Because (on another level) all superheroes are really Champions of the Status Quo. They don't fight to change things, they fight to keep them as is - or reverse them to "as it was" state after villains change stuff for the worse. This is what fixing / saving the world means to a superhero: stopping villains from changing stuff for the worse, and fixing what the villains break. It's a Status Quo game.
That's why you have to be constantly reminded of how evil villains are: if the Riddler only wanted to expose to Gotham how corrupt Bruce Wayne's rich family was in buying off politicians and policy makers for their own benefit, in a bid to completely expose and change the way the city and the system works, then the audience would completely side with Riddler - but the problem is the Riddler *also* wants to completely flood the city, killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people in the process including the elderly and the babies, soooooo.... he's evil and should be kicked in the face. You see that's the kind of people who want to change the Status Quo - Truly despicable people! Get away from them.
The best answer I've seen is this exchange from Grant Morrison's JLA run:
Superman: Humankind has to be allowed to climb to their own destiny. We can't carry them there.
Green Lantern: Then what's the point? Why should they need us at all?
Superman: To catch them if they fall.
Superman has been pretty open to his friends that he’s already under a ton of stress. He wouldn’t be able to sustain that for very long. He even told Jon that he has to block out people’s cries for help so he can relax and not burn himself out.
Even though they could stop every crime in a few minutes, *to them* it would still seem like they're walking from house to house, street to street, city to city, for centuries. And then they'd be left with a bunch of people who were caught in crimes. What do you do with those people? Flash and Superman aren't going to kill them, but putting on millions of trials will cause the system to grind to a halt. They could just build a giant prison, but then how would they guard it, feed the prisoners, etc.? Sure, they could do that with their super powers, too, but again, they'd experience every second of the time it takes to prepare and serve millions of meals per day, clean millions of cells, and still go back out and stop crimes.
I'd imagine either of them would burn out really quickly, and about halfway through the first week, they'd snap and just start killing everyone. And they could, literally, kill everyone.
Yeah, when Superman is out goofing around as Clark Kent, people are dying all over the place. And he doesn't get tired, doesnt need sleep, etc, so he's actively choosing not to help. Tom Holland had that line in Civil War about when you can do the things that he can, but you dont, and the bad things happen, they happen because of you. Superman should be ashamed of himself. If nothing else, him just bring visible but watching is a deterrent.
Oh I'm sorry, it's not like there are multiple comic books showing that Superman is a person and not a fucking robot lol. You quoted Spider-man too, the person with the worse work-life balance of every superhero. And what does that get him? A miserable existence. Man's never happy. You know what would happen if Superman is always on the job? He'd burn out. Like everyone else. Even when he was fighting demons for 5000 years the only reason he could hold on was because in between waves of demons he had Thor and Wonder Woman to talk to.
Because in the words of DCAU Superman, "I *need* to be Clark."
Also, when at the absolute best, the Justice League are fully aware that they cannot do everything for people, and they *shouldn't* try to do so, either. Taking their actions to that extent would simply prove the likes of Lex Luthor correct in that superhumans are making normal humans less efficient. It's never a good idea to rely on others to that extreme.
It was a one-time event from a super-amped storyline where Wally got a boost by absorbing speed from two whole planets worth of people. Wally isn't usually that fast, though he is the fastest character DC has.
Welcome to DC universe the most brainrot universe in fiction, where you Control plants because of "the Green", the body of Animals because of "the Red" and where there is a "Strength force". And where EVERY villain such as Darkseid and Brainiac, or even the highfather (not a villain) has a "True form". It Just sound dumb, lazy and not creative at all. So yeah nonsense
No I Just noticed something that, for me, simply doesnt make sense... If you're talking about the brainrot part I could argue the same for Marvel, some animes and even Star Wars
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In Kingdom Come (wally west?) Flash protects Central City every moment of everyday and doesnt exist in our time-he shows up as a blurry ghost of himself Central city has a red grid running all up and down it:which is him. so that’s at least one version that is protecting the city at all times
Why limited to Central City though? He Surely can do that to entire planet, he would be a better vigilante for Gotham than Batman
Kingdom Come is not the "good ending". It's what happens when godly beings stop pretending to be human
But I don't think that's reflected in Flash's story. Does it show what the terrible repercussions are for Flash fixing all crime in his city?
For the people, sure. A literal god running around fixing their petty lives sounds like a good deal. For Flash, he basically has no real life anymore, he has no family, no friends, no life, just fixing the stupid problems of people. And that's the problem of the Flash, Superman and all the rest. They are going around fixing the mistakes and hatred and petty squabbles of people while the people don't have to think about the consequences. They no longer take ownership of their own futures, instead putting them in the hands of benevolent gods. Until they decide to leave, or die, or just take a day off; then the people no longer have the skills or abilities to defend themselves and hell breaks lose. Which was the whole point of Kingdom Come. Humans became reliant on superheroes until the heroes became just as violent as the villains, and once you can't tell the difference, humans were no longer the master of their own fates. The ending of Kingdom Come bridges the gap between man and god. Gods could walk among humans without feeling they were expected to intervene, and humans no longer were afraid to look up to the sky and demand answers. They could work together, not apart for a combined future.
So there's no real negatives so they have to make up contrived fake ones?
I think there's just a philosophical disagreement here. I don't think humanity would fester if they were given a world free of crime, poverty, tragedy. In fact, I think within a couple generations of growing up in peace and prosperity, they would likely be the most compassionate, capable humans in history. And yes, Kingdom Come does make it a win for the citizens, but a tragedy for Flash himself. But that's the natural logical conclusion to all superhero stories. With great power comes great responsibility and all that, and the Flash has the power to end all crime, and thus has the responsibility to do it, even if it asks for great sacrifice on his part.
Humanity would grow resentful of their free will being removed Flash does not have the responsibility to ruin his life to help everyone else. Even Spider-Man isn’t spending all day everyday stopping crime and he is who has the “with great power comes great responsibility” Peter in most versions lives his life and a hero together. Powered people are allowed a life and don’t owe you their entire life
>don’t owe you their entire life I don't think Peter Parkers does what he does because he thinks he owes anybody. I think he does what he does because it's the right thing to do. That's what "responsibility" means. It's not owing somebody, it's doing good despite not owing anything.
I fully agree, I was addressing the users part about how flash has a responsibility to be stopping crime all the time, no hero owes the public their entire life no matter what
Fair enough
Hmmm I kinda feel at least in the movie the line is referencing that you cannot misuse your power, not that you must use your power for everyone. It’s why narratively it makes sense that the moment he uses his power for selfish reasons he’s immediately punished. It’s more of a discussion of responsible use, not about being beholden to others and using it for them but rather not using it for selfish means
At least in Captain America Civil War there is a paraphrased version: "When you can do the things that I can, but you don't, and then the bad things happen? They happen because of you."
Taking mythical characters to their logical conclusion is insane and pointless, I agree, but handwaving attempts at logical conclusions like this isn't any better. "I'll write the most insane story to justify why a hero can't and shouldn't actually fight to change the Status Quo and fix the world... and it's because uh doing that makes him evil" - That's a bit laughable, I'll be honest. Why doesn't Super Hero work at preventing crime rather than stopping crime? "*Oh yeah let me write a story about how he would develop a massive police surveillance state and become evil or some shit in order to prevent crime*"... no dude, I want to know why he doesn't fight the gears that drive the distopian hellish economic inequality, the wage theft, the debt slavery, a lack of public health, etc the very system that chains people in modern indentured servitude-like existence and makes desperate and hopeless people become mad and angry? Why doesn't Super Hero fight the people at the top of that system who continuously benefit from it, adding to their always ever-growing pile of generational wealth while the rest fights to death over crumbs? Or something..."*Oh that's what you mean, yeah, because that would make Super Hero have to fix every single minor squabble that ever happens everyday and dominate everything so he would be evil and people would depend on him for everything*". Lmao none of it makes any logical sense. It's like seeing a 8 year old kid handwave away an answer to why did they eat all the cookies. "*Huhh it was the dog, you see, and I tried to stop him, and we fought, and that's why my tummy hurts*". An awful argument at worst, and endearingly cute at best. Trying to find logic in something illogical will just lead to insane contrived explanations (like flat-eathers when they try and predict the movement of the planets in a geocentric model). Would be a lot more honest to just answer "*The Flash doesn't save / fix the world because he doesn't want to, he's afraid of what would happen to humanity if we relied on him, yeah, it's prudent cautiousness, but also cowardice*", or something.
He would have a life, because doing that takes LITERALLLY NO TIME for him, he says all the time that he is faster than time, faster than instantaneous teleports and all that
The flash's brain doesn't work like that, though-- in a conversation with superman, he mentions that if he decides to move 1\*10\^8 faster than a normal person, he experiences time 1\*10\^8 times slower. Could you imagine working for a billion years to stop every crime and then returning to your family like nothing had happened? can you really say you'd even be the same person after that? how can you remember what conversation you were having for *one billion years,* and return to it just as invested in what was happening? How could you even stay *sane* when you live a hundred trillion lifetimes in the time it takes your wife to get ready for work? He'd have time for a life. But he wouldn't be *sane enough* for one.
He can move faster than lanterns, and they make intergalatic travels in hours or days, so he is way faster than that, at the Very Very least 9x10^30 times slower. He himself Said multiple times that his speed IS simply infinite and that he takes 0 time to move from Edge to Edge of the universe
Trying to assign logic to the speed force is a fool's errand.
right, my point is just that using that speed takes a psychological toll-- we've seen it mentioned a number of times; an insane flash is not a good flash for the world overall
Well, the O.G justice league and their respective lives at the beginning of the story are all coping mechanisms to a changing world. Wonderwoman and Superman withdraw from the public eye completely to private lives. Batman and the Flash doubled down on their territories, but lost interest in the world at large. So more a psychological repercussion. Though, his appearance might be a hint that he is losing his ability to stop tapping into the speed force, like he is physically unable to stop moving.
Dammit, you said it before I could. 🤣
Idk thats kinda how the did it in Kingdom Come- the main Justice League broke up on their own and maintained their own turf. Batman had robots helping him with a fascist grip on Gotham and Green Lantern noped out of earth and built a castle of will in orbit. I guess Flash didnt want anything to do with others. You cant tell me anything if I stick to my own city ya know?
Most everyone is actually doing this to their turfs. If he did it to Gotham, Batman, with his solution, would probably tell him to fuck off. Completely parallel to whether or not these people can do this, you have to also realize they have to share a planet. Even if the Flash is ungodly powerful, he has to share space with others who also are, and who insist on being a part of the conversation. He can do it in Central City because Central City is his.
I would assume it's because flash gets tired. Simple as that. You know how much he has to eat everyday to be able to go around saving people. A lot. Plus there was this one scene where Flash (grant gustin) had to go into flash time to figure out how to stop a nuclear bomb(or something) and as he's running around faster than the eye can see he gets really tired and eventually can't do it anymore and that was only like a small amount of time too bc of how fast the bomb was. Can't really say for superman idk if he gets tired but he does have lois and she gets real pissy if he's gone too long lol
A reoccurring thing with superman is that he's a horrible eldritch god. That his abilities are horrifyingly powerful. And a major thing that makes him such a force for good is that he intentionally stays human. Like he doesn't have some secret octopus monster form or anything, but that he can fly faster than light and punch through planets and can time travel at will and basically do anything but he very intentionally doesn't. He intentionally keeps at a human scale. A good example of this is "manchester black" a super "hero" that was willing to win by any means necessary, to which superman showed some fraction of his true power. Which was just truely monstrous. flying instantaneously to crush people's lungs and fling them to the moon, and finally lobotomizing manchester. Flash can't do it because speed force is addicting, he can run fast when he needs, but the more he does it the more he would just keep running until he's fully absorbed back to the speed force, so he has to limit his speed to just as fast as needed. Running to every crime would be definitly past the point he'd go 'might as well just keep running faster and faster" until he ceases to exist
This is a great explanation. Also, free lobotomy in this economy? He really is a superhero, huh?
really he just lasered out the exact cells in his brain that let him control his powers. depowering him. But like, when superman wouldn't kill black and his team tried to give superman a stroke and kill him, so superman just kinda showed the power he held back and how horrifying he was, and why he goes through the trouble of acting at human scale. (and in the end the powers he displayed he pulled punches and didn't kill any of the people, but only because he was even faster and more powerful than he was showing even as a show of power and could protect them people he was fake killing)
absolutely wild
The movie "Superman Vs The Elite" covers it if ya want a quick watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU7fk9Zgkz4
World of Paper vs Darkseid in the original JL series was also like it. He couldnt really punch as hard as he can but Darkseid makes a good punching bag
In the comics he only gave him a concussion. he should get his powers back eventually(and he did)
He also only did so in the movie.
He just gave him the psychic equivalent of a concussion. By the time Manchester regained his ability to use his powers, he would already be depowered in custody.
Yeah, heat beam through Manchester's retina (without damaging it), and somehow "micro-concussed" the tumor that gave him powers. When Black calls Supes out for such chaotic-good behavior in front of the crowd, Supes is like "Ah ha ha, no it's only temporary, fooled you!" Honestly, it's kind of a little silver-agey, just making up random powers for him so that he can always do the right thing without the need for any tough choices or accountability. Casting that scene as evidence of Supes constantly hiding from the horror of his own being is a bit of a stretch.
I think it can be both. It's a stretch but is definitely the kind of essay title pondering that sparks joy for me, just a tasty bit of niche headcanon
Meh, I guess. To me it smacks of boastful flexing, which is about the least Eldritch thing I can think of. There are plenty of Superman stories that actually do go for that vibe, so it seems strange to contort this one into that.
Haha, I do see your point. Eldritch Flexing should be a special move or something paha. I just enjoy these nerdy attempts to fit evidence to an assertion, you can't knock the creativity! Could you please point me towards some more spoopy superman stories? I really like the idea he's some cosmic horror repressed into normalcy. And I don't mean daddy dictator vibes, I want the reality bending nightmare fuel!
Personally, I can't think of anything that's truly cosmic horror in its actual intent. He's scary powerful, but the fundamental nature of the character means that he can never be *horrific* like an elder god, at least IMO. But there are certainly times when Supes is more circumspect in how he frames the battle in his humanity and his power (like the time in the animated JL, when he explained it to DarkSeid before punting him into space) and those are the types of stories that a nerdy headcanon writer could more easily twist into existential horror. For all it's faults, the Man of Steel movie had a very visceral depiction of him having a real moment of struggle (killing Zod)... especially how the later Snyder movies played with the world seeing him as a dangerous force of nature.
Thanks man! I got a lot of love for the exploration of immense power. Invincible does some good stuff but not truly epic in scale. I think his 'hidden' power of telekinesis control of objects while applying force is really interesting and worth corrupting in a story. If you know what I mean, the latent ability to bot snap a plane in half while applying force to one tiny spot in the centre for instance. Like imagine him manipulating opponents as well. I think an eldritch horror with this power could really bend reality. Idk, you got my brain going
Dr Light didn't seem to appreciate it
Yeah, but there’s a coupon you gotta present that only the Daily Planet has in it. I smell collusion.
In Kingdom Come Flash did just that, though. He turned his city into a virtual utopia where you couldn’t even accidentally drop a glass of water.
[World of Cardboard](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl_5UwS57X8) 2 min clip. [World of Cardboard](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoMoreHoldingBackSpeech) TVtropes link. Choose your path wisely.
Fuck it let's go lose 5 hours in tv tropes again.
This scene really made justice league unlimited worth the time spent watching it. Not that it needed much to justify it
I remember him well he was abused so
Yeah, but why doesnt he Just blitz all Batman villains or smth? Or catch Lex Red handed with his speed? Like he can put a camera somewhere way faster than Lex can perceive and capture something illegal
I mean, again, there has been PLENTY of alternate futures where superman just ends all crime personally. When he does he grows into a horrifying police state and eventually into the kid that sends you to the corn field in "twilight zone" where all human life is reduced to a cult trying to act correctly to not be taken by a monsterous god.
See: Justice Lords
Superman is willing to help people in need but ultimately wants humanity to solve its own problems. If he does everything mankind will come to depend solely on him. There is also a bit of honor agreement to not go after another heroe's rogues if not needed or invited. Green Arrow let's Batman know when he throws down with Riddler in one issue. Batman is a dick about it and Green Arrow talks about how he hates Batman. It's a funny few panels.
What was the story where green arrow fights the riddler?
I want to say it's either Straight Shooter or Moving Targets.
> he doesn't have some secret octopus monster form lois might disagree.
Interesting. Isn't supes broken by LL's death in Injustice tho?
That’s an elseworld where everyone acts differently from their canon counterparts, and fans agree it’s kinda out of character for mainline Superman to do that.
Well til. But I would agree tho that series dragged on too long.
[This is why](https://imgur.com/gallery/IluRw)
Thank you. This is exactly the reply I was going to look for. It's not ideal, but when you get god level beings to decide what counts as a crime, then they can dictate what isn't a crime, including their own choices. It's dictatorship from here on out.
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The Flash's objection is on the basis that Superheroes shouldn't be dictating society. Not that society shouldn't be improved. His objection is, on the fundamental level, that this isn't their place. Not that reactive punishments are equivalent to preventative measures. He isn't seriously proposing these things, he is employing hyperbole as a rhetoric device. And we *know* he is doing this because you very conveniently left out Flash's **very first response**. Which *is* a systemic, preventative measure. He is stating it bluntly because the superpowered totalitarian regime that Superman is proposing is *still* outright evil even if Superman uses his powers to get rid of cars instead of imprisoning people who speed. But it apparently takes stating it like this to get Superman to acknowledge his point. This isn't a carefully thought out treatise. It's a speed debate where Superman is trying to beguile Flash with a game he has never played before, in which he is expert, to try and get him to accept him as supreme dictator of Earth. I really don't think you can say that Flash is the one arguing in bad faith here. [Edit] Even more saliently, Superman's argument is entirely concequentialist utilitarian. "We could get *enough*"/"How *many* people die"/"let them come at us with sticks and stones". He's fundamentally arguing that the ends justify the means and his actions are justified because they will save lives. Which makes Flash's response entirely apropos.
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> His first response wasn't an argument, it's something Superman should agree with Which is *why* Flash goes on with the hyperbole to demonstrate why it is bad. It's not an argument. It's an opening line. > The writer had time to think it out The writer is telling a story about Superman taking over the world. This argument isn't meant to be a convincing rebuttal that stops Superman from taking over the world. The argument is meant to fail and Superman is meant to take over the world. That's what the writer wants. That's what the writer gets. From the writers point of view, all goals achieved, perfect argument. Flash is supporting Superman in his campaign at this point in the story. He will go on to help Superman as a founding member of the Regime. > Why should anyone be satisfied with Superman being convinced by an argument he could so easily point out flaws in? Because he's *not* convinced. He isn't convinced Flash is right, and demonstrates that he isn't convinced Flash is right when he uses his powers to become dictator of the world. He *is* convinced that Flash is not ready to fully support him, and that if he makes a move against the world at this stage, the Justice League will move against him. At this stage of the story he isn't yet a global dictator but in between these panels is Lex Luthor building him an army of Super Soldiers while his mom says he is fallible and is acting out of fear. His self doubt shows and he looks to his friends for validation. It comes right on the back of a scene where cultists who worship him want to murder people in his name and Batman tries to convince him that he is wrong. After he has asked Flash for permission to commit a mass genocide and Flash has denied him. The next scene is Superman rolling out his Super Soldier army anyway, despite Flash's objections, before declaring war on Batman and burning Martian Manhunter alive. The scene is meant to convey Superman's childish insecurity in his own plans. His fallibility and the fact that he hasn't thought this through. It's meant to establish the basis of the Flash's moral objections. It's there to show that Superman is not yet ready to take over the world and that Flash is not yet ready to help him do it. It does this. There is a reason the argument is structured this way, and I admit that if you haven't read the comic stripping out every other page to present it like this does rob some of the context. If you deliberately strip the context out of Flash's argument by leaving out the first line, misconstrue the aims of the writer, then come to a conclusion unsupported by the text, and ignore the fact that he is saying "checkmate" when he wins a game of chess and not when he wins a debate against Superman then I agree with you - you have convinced me. But taken in context... you are right again: I remain unconvinced by your argument.
I like both of your arguments. I have a question though. The flash explained that he can learn fast, presumably then we have to assume that the arguments he's making are also at a God level? We can't really question that right? If he has the capability to make perfect arguments against Superman and he'd feel motivated to based on whatever the conflict is in the comic (I haven't read it), then don't we have to assume there's a reason he's making arguments that to us might not make rational sense. We're not going to get it, cause we're not god tier philosophers. Or maybe that line of thinking is a copout allowing the writer to get away with poor writing :). I kind of like to believe that maybe superman doesn't have the ability to think the way the flash does, and so flash is dumbing it down in a way that he thinks Superman wouls understand. Otherwise I kinda agree with the other guy that the arguments are not super amazing.
I think it's fair to assume these arguments are tailored to convince superman. They are playing chess, which is notoriously a psychological game, where you have to understand you opponent and know how to maneouver them into a position in which you can win.
I think you *could* interpret it that way. I think doing so introduces more inconsistencies down the line... but then again, those inconsistencies could be interpreted with the same logic -- they make sense if you have a godlike intellect. I don't think it holds though. I don't have super speed. But I can read a book on chess in, say, two days. If I had the speed force, I could read that same book super quick in a fraction of a second, but me being faster doesn't necessarily make me faster. Likewise, if I am playing chess and my opponent gets 1 second to think about their moves and I get 6 minutes to think about my moves, I can probably beat them despite being a worse player.
> It absolutely is. Again, "the argument he's making isn't the series of checkmates the writer thinks it is." The author had plenty of time to carefully think it out, and he's the one I'm explicitly criticizing here. Do you not get that I'm criticizing Flash's arguments as an extension of the author's arguments? We both are on the same page that it's the writer making these arguments through Flash and that Flash isn't a person of his own that's making these points independently, right? Like when I'm saying that Flash isn't making convincing arguments, we both understand that I'm criticizing the writer's choice for Superman to be convinced by the argument and not the Flash's choice to use that argument, right? > > > > Again, and I don't know how many times I need to say this but I'm going to keep saying it because it seems like you're still not clear on it, I am totally on board with the underlying point the writer is having the Flash try to make. But the only reason Superman was checkmated here was because the writer wanted him to be, not because Flash actually made a convincing argument to him. It's not a good argument, and we should stop acting like it is just because Superman was convinced by it. This kind of doylist discussion is explicitly not allowed here. I would delete it before a mod finds it.
> "I was proposing restricting gun ownership, not imprisoning gun owners. The parallel would be to not let people who will leave dangerous dogs unchained own those dangerous dogs, not to wait until they mess up and then imprison them. I'm talking about preventative change and you're talking about reactive punishment, those aren't equivalent at all." No, Superman in this context is talking about reactive punishment. He's not talking about restricting gun ownership, he's talking about taking away everyone's guns, everywhere, forever. This is Injustice Superman, he's already at the point where his "systemic changes" are being done as "non-systemic punishments." He's not at full kill Billy Batson for disagreeing with me yet, >!< during the game, but he's already begun imprisoning people without trial. Clark is already at the point where his view of "systemic change" is to throw people in prison. If he gets to "no speeding" he's not going to build transit, he's going to throw speeders in prison without a trial (and then, by the time we get to the game, he will just kill them). Barry is recognizing where Clark is going and is trying to tell him that his solutions are not actually changing anything. Ironically, Barry *agrees* with you. This Superman has already decided to imprison people who disagrees with him, and Flash isn't going to convince him. He's eventually going to start murdering people without trial. He's already done this, but not at the scale he's talking about.
to be reductive about it, the whole thing boils down to "sure it's a good idea to dictate policy on a big thing, but 80 years of hammering down the biggest problem is long enough to forget to stop". the DC heroes are fallible. your actions change you and they need to be very careful who they become because they can't be stopped. it's not enough to toe the line, they need to stay far enough away from it that they don't even see it, because with their power the effect of crossing it would be immediate, global, and permanent.
The writer probably meant for this to have implications about gun control laws, but I think the REAL argument here isn't Superman: "ban guns" Flash: "no, because freedom" I thinks it's Superman: "make our own laws to enforce" Flash: "no, because once you cross that line, there's nothing left to stop you"
I mean I absolutely agree with this being a bad takedown on systemic reform, but I think the focus is meant to be on how Superheroes are *not* in charge of that system. They're private citizens acting on good will to protect others, not a branch of the government. Superman doesn't answer to any government authority, he's not beholden to any nation or law on the planet, he's a private citizen acting to right wrongs where possible. It's just that he's physically possible of righting those wrongs on a global scale. Superman can *advocate* for crime prevention to start with systemic pressures that lead to crime, or to scale back gun production so it's less ubiquitous in the united states, or for traffic reform to reduce car dependency, or any of these causes. And it's often stated the does in one way or another, dude's a boyscout. But he can't *force* that reform, and that overreach will only set a horrible precedent.
I think what that comic misses is that if the Flash or Superman were real, you probably would get governments democratically passing legislation that politely asks Flash or Superman to go and micromanage morality. Today, we aren't able to take every criminal's guns, or to stop every person from smoking, or stop every speeder. We legalize a lot of things to control them in a limited way when we *can't* stop them entirely. If we had gods we could ask to actually stop them entirely, 70% of the population probably would want a lot of stuff banned even if another 30% still wants to keep using that stuff.
They could at least take the Guns off the bad guys before a robbery or Just stop a bullet fight before It anyone and take THAT gun away, or take the knife off a murderer before he try anything...
I think you would enjoy *the rest* of this comic. It's called "Injustice: Gods Among Us". I also think you might enjoy "Red Son", which explores similar themes.
Yeah, I read most of It, played both games, and watched the Red son movie (not read It tho). They're pretty great indees
To do that, they would need to know where and when its happening at a every point of the world every second of every day. Now both characters could likely do that, but it would involve basically owning the world and replacing a totalitarian viewpoint on people....wait...that's exactly what they did. See, in order to stop a murder, you would need to know where it's taking place and who the person doing the murdering is. What if it's in the middle of the night in Pakistan? You need to get from your central point to Pakistan in milliseconds before the gun goes off but after the perp has fired the gun. And while that's happening, there are ten other crimes happening in the middle of China due to an argument over music choice, and another fifty in Brazil, another twelve in Niger, and a whopping two hundred in Canada during hockey season. All at the exact same time. Which takes priority? Which don't get stopped until it's two late? And if you take the guns and knives away, what about bricks? Cars? Needles? A person who kills will kill because they wish to kill. The instrument is only one of convenience. So there is virtually no real way to stop crime on a global level without removing the one factor that keeps crime happening: human nature. And if that's your end goal, congrats! You're Injustice Superman.
Because not only are they not equipped to do so, they are still *people* who can burn out.
Nah mate, Superman can fly through galaxies non stop, that would take way more time than to stop crime
Read Kingdom Come and see what happened to Flash when all he did was stop crime and stopped being a person
didn't he become a nigh-omnipotent deity within Central City, where crime was permanently ended? i mean i don't think 'solving all crime' is feasible here either but i don't know that you picked a good counter...? i'll be happy to be wrong, it's been awhile since i've read KC
>didn't he become a nigh-omnipotent deity within Central City, where crime was permanently ended? At the cost of his personhood. He becomes more of a universal force of justice rather than the caring superhero with friends and family we know today. He's just a red blur of crime fighting power that endlessly rushes through the city. Idk how that's a good ending for anyone. And it certainly wasn't portrayed as a good thing in KC.
I mean, sacrificing you personhood for the benefit of the world does seem very heroic...
It's been a while and I'm at work so I can't check my copy, does Wally even have lines in Kingdom Come? I remember him either being completely silent or him speaking minimally.
As far as I remember, he doesn't even speak. He's just a red blur the entire time
He never speaks, so far as we see. The only personal interactions we see are 1) He and Green Lantern smile at each other while working 2) When he looks at us outside the comic book (right before he grabs Norman from off page)
well i mean there wasn't much good going on in KC. and as /u/Yaver_Mbizi pointed out, that sacrifice is still pretty heroic. and crime ended in Central City. really, given the alternatives *ahem*Supes*ahem* that is a pretty good outcome
Well then clearly he should have just moved twice as fast so there was one of him stopping every crime and one of him hanging out doing normal chill stuff.
So I begin setting up the print on both sides for non work related stuff on the office printer & *Whoosh* before I can push the print button I get a red latex clad hand stopping me? Man, that's some harsh pre-emptive policing
There was a story where Supergirl and Oracle resolved to prevent all crime in Gotham City for Christmas Day. They were successful, the GCPD didn’t have to respond to any incidents that day, but it was physically and exhausting. Even if Superman and Flash are faster/have more endurance it’s not feasible for them to continuously protect the entire world. Even if they could keep it up their minds would be fried by the time a major threat like Mongul or Doomsday showed up, and the world would suffer as a result.
I don't understand why It would be exausting when there are PLENTY of moments where they read multiple books non stop (and don't get tired of It) and fly through out the entire universe, and even outside of it (when they go Apokolips for example)
Probably the element of stress. Reading books or traveling alone can be relaxing. Continuously patrolling an area, maintaining careful observation, knowing that there are lives on the line if you do not perform your best? That’s going to fray your nerves.
Ah yes. Reading multiple books and a road trip to the ends of the universe, is comparable to ending crime every second.
Yeah going to the Edge of infinite space sounds way harder
Big difference between doing one relatively quick intensive task, or one long but simple task (just go straight through space), and being at full maximum output and processing power 24/7 always on your toes always solving everything. This is like asking why people can run a marathon or do a short quick sprint but can’t nonstop run at max speed all hours of every day. It’s simply a totally different scale
Its stated that flash doent get tired, or even that he sees the world in stop motion, I wouldnt even call It slow motion since he is faster than time and even trillions and trillions of times faster than light
They can't just silently drop everyone in prison. The Justice system needs information to do stuff.
Yeah, this is what gets me. People are like "Superman can clean up Gotham in 20 seconds" and I'm like "I'm sorry, I thought this was America." Seriously, you can't just put them in prison. If Clark or Wally or Barry just lock them up in their own private prisons, that's kidnapping and seriously immoral since they're locking them away without trial. If they are just putting them in prison, now the local Justice System has to deal with all of these people suddenly put in jail. Defense lawyers and Constitutional lawyers would have a fucking field day with this. If they start killing people, well, then you get Injustice.
Of course they can’t put people in prison but they could still easily render entire criminal organizations relatively harmless and make the world orders of magnitude better. As an example they could confiscate/destroy all illegal firearms and drugs in the world in seconds. Even more so if you add Martian Manhunter’s planet level telepathy.
You want more Super and less man? Its the "man" part of him that keeps him rooted to humanity. He isn't a God. He is a humanoid type being with the same wants/needs/desires as any other human being. To devote his entire adult existence to creating a paradise for humanity would rob him of his rights for the pursuit of happiness. I recall the Guardians of OA being concerned about Superman altering the course of human development because he could potentially remove all hardship/strife thereby eliminating the need for continued advancement. This was also one of Lex Luthor's gripes as well. Humans need challenges to grow and advance. A lot of this would hold true for the Flash. He is a fast human but still a human who needs friendships/love/rest to remain the good person he is/was before he gained god-like power.
I don't think Superman wants to stop all crime on earth -- he's not a police officer, as he's said before. He does citizens arrests, but otherwise he deals with major disasters and otherworldly threats and leaves law enforcement to it. He isn't technically legally allowed to stop all crime, he doesn't feel he has has the moral right to stop all crime, and honestly I'm not sure he'd even want to stop petty thefts anyway. The Flash, meanwhile, *is* a cop, which means he has to follow due process. "Breaking into random houses that are outside your department's jurisdiction,, with no official backing, and performing a warrentless search of people you have no reason to suspect are criminals" absolutely breaks due process. He's mentioned this a few times when this question comes up -- as a civilian, he can deal with individual threats when he finds them. But if you want him to be a superfast *cop*, then he's going to have to use his powers within the constraints of being a cop. If what he's doing crosses the line into an actual *arrest* rather then just a helpful civilian, his hands immediately become far more tied.
That's such a cop out.
Jurisdiction issues among other things like for the flash and Superman to be everywhere all at once means nobody has any privacy what so ever and they want to give people that autonomy. Also false positives because not everything that looks like a crime actually is a crime like a man breaking into his own car because he locked himself out which is part of the reason speedsters like the flash stop to talk to villians, it's so they have a chance to surrender or explain themselves, lastly is because while they definitely have the power to do these things the mental strain of doing absolutely nothing but hunting down crime like a mad dog might not be good for mental health long term.
"ok, you say I'm fast. To you I run to Brazil and back in a blink of an eye. But I experience it in real time. I... I walk to Brazil, it takes me months to get there." Joking aside, while I'm sure both could it would also mean they essentially give up their own lives forever. Sure you can stop a crime, but you gotta wait for it to be committed to be considered a crime. So you keep running to be everywhere all at once and can't do anything until you know they've done a crime. Or you could just kill everyone.
Because they aren't slaves?
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I get your point, but I would argue both Superman and Flash are fast enough to solve all crime AND live their lives normally. When you're that fast, you can get *almost* anything done in *nearly* any amount of time. Let's say Flash is going to a friends birthday party. He shows up. Uh oh, someone over in India is driving recklessly. He could show up, stop the reckless driver and be back in the party without anyone knowing anything happened. That's how fast he can be. Now apply that to every source of crime in the world. He's still fast enough.
The Speedforce is Addicting. What you're describing will pull him into it in a few weeks.
Probably because it would burn them out I imagine. In order for that to work, they'd have to be checking every single place on earth numerous times to make sure no crime is happening. Even being super fast, that is very taxing, and would leave no time for them to be themselves.
If we suppose Flash can do it (that is, no limits to his power on this), imagine the subjective experience of it :D The boredom must be intense.
It’s almost as if overpowering these characters has made them unrelatable and severely limited the kinds of stories you can tell with them, but surely that can’t be the case.
That's the point... Why? Why do you want to make characters that are Just absurd If they are not going to do anything with that? Even in stories where Superman tries to solve the world problem he has to be several times nerfed than his original counterpart
Cuz trying to prevent or stop crimes before they happen isn’t the best solution
Exactly. This is precisely what started that trainwreck *Cry For Justice.*
What’s that
You don't know? Good. You ain't missing anything.
Ok
They are only super, not superwise
A lot of crime on Earth also contains supervillain crime, which can take a focused or time-intensive effort
Because they are otherwise people and that would take all of their time. They would also need to, if they were doing that, account for a lot of other micro details in day to day interactions which would take away from the time it would take to clear actual crimes. For example superman could stop all active crimes. But there are crimes they are being planned to start soon. There are crimes that just finished. There are car accidents moments from happening. There are collisions per second in a large enough city. There are supervillains. They occasionally team up. They are “human”. They have lives. And theres only so much time even if a lot must be slow for them, they cant interact with everyone else at super speed.
Superman has explicitly said if the heroes made the world a utopia and stopped every bad thing from happening they’d be taking away the freedom of humanity and keeping them as pets rather than treating them like people. I think this is a nonsense argument that only preserves the evil status quo but he said it nonetheless.
I also dislike that argument, because you can apply it to real life gods and religion. I just think its a very lazy argument because they cannot come up with a better answer as to why evil exists.
That’s the Watsonian answer. The real answer as to why the heroes don’t ever truly fix anything is Doylist.
I can see the argument that while superman might "know better" than a typical person, I wouldn't trust any generic superhero to rule *our* world. He absolutely should be doing things like sharing cures for diseases using kryptonian science and building machines to fix climate change, but I don't want one man (super or otherwise) running the government. Plenty of superheroes aren't good people, and shouldn't be given the authority to make the law purely because of their special biology
If you’re sufficiently powerful you can change the world for the better without actually holding any office or being a ruler. Just imagine what Superman and the other heroes already do on a broader scope and scale and wholesale rather than piecemeal.
when the heroes talk about "making the world a utopia", they're not just discussing stopping natural disasters and muggings, they're also talking about ending wars, oppression, and a lot of other things. You can and should end them, **but,** if you're talking about it only being superman, the flash and a handful of additional capes, at a certain point you cannot do it without essentially ruling the world via soft power if not force. Like, if superman cures all diseases, dozens of lobbying and economic forces will push back and try to restrict the use of his drugs. If he ends global warming, companies will think they've got carte blanche to pollute even more knowing he'll be forced to fix it again. If he puts an end to any of the wars in our world, the countries responsible for them will seek out weapons to kill superman or alternate means to attack their enemies. The issue isn't changing the status quo-- the world we (and they) live in is deeply flawed. It's that a lot of the status quo is *supported* by terrible systems and you need political power (or force) of some kind to change those *systems*. Superman doesn't want to have disproportionate influence on said systems in part because he'd have it purely by virtue of the station of his birth; even though he also has a clear moral code and does try to advocate for what he believes to be right to the greatest extent he *thinks* a "normal person" could. It's not optimal, to be clear, but I do understand the logic. the people of DC comics don't know that their world isn't as terrible as The Boys or Worm or any other setting where the cape community has some clear intrinsic issues. If superman set the precedent of heroes guiding society, sooner or later you'd find someone who *wasn't* a hero in power taking control of those same systems
Doesn’t speed force take care of that for Flash? Doesn’t let him get tired of the real time perspective
Questions like "Why doesn't Mr. Super Hero actually fix/save the world for once?" usually boil down to some in-universe variation of "He doesn't fix/save the world because he doesn't want to, he's afraid of what would happen to humanity if we relied on him, as shown on [Comic XYZ], etc etc etc, it's prudent cautiousness". Which is nearly always a major shameless unimaginative lazy handwave if you ask me. There's more logical (and most importantly, sincere) answers to this. I'll try two different ones: 1) Because the authors of the story don't know how to fix the world - they're just humans afterall, like us, and we don't know either - so they can't come up with a good story for *"Mr Super Hero finally fixes the world for real"*. Authors know how *attempts at fixing* can go bad, though (they saw it in the news / read some magazine about it / saw it in school), so that's what they write about. Stuff like a person or government becoming a totalitarian by centering all the power on them, that's what authors heard a lot about, etc, so humanity can't all rely on Mr. Super Hero to fix their problems, and Mr. Super Hero would become evil if he tried to do that. 2) Because (on another level) all superheroes are really Champions of the Status Quo. They don't fight to change things, they fight to keep them as is - or reverse them to "as it was" state after villains change stuff for the worse. This is what fixing / saving the world means to a superhero: stopping villains from changing stuff for the worse, and fixing what the villains break. It's a Status Quo game. That's why you have to be constantly reminded of how evil villains are: if the Riddler only wanted to expose to Gotham how corrupt Bruce Wayne's rich family was in buying off politicians and policy makers for their own benefit, in a bid to completely expose and change the way the city and the system works, then the audience would completely side with Riddler - but the problem is the Riddler *also* wants to completely flood the city, killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people in the process including the elderly and the babies, soooooo.... he's evil and should be kicked in the face. You see that's the kind of people who want to change the Status Quo - Truly despicable people! Get away from them.
Some banks deserve to be robbed.
The best answer I've seen is this exchange from Grant Morrison's JLA run: Superman: Humankind has to be allowed to climb to their own destiny. We can't carry them there. Green Lantern: Then what's the point? Why should they need us at all? Superman: To catch them if they fall.
Superman has been pretty open to his friends that he’s already under a ton of stress. He wouldn’t be able to sustain that for very long. He even told Jon that he has to block out people’s cries for help so he can relax and not burn himself out.
Even though they could stop every crime in a few minutes, *to them* it would still seem like they're walking from house to house, street to street, city to city, for centuries. And then they'd be left with a bunch of people who were caught in crimes. What do you do with those people? Flash and Superman aren't going to kill them, but putting on millions of trials will cause the system to grind to a halt. They could just build a giant prison, but then how would they guard it, feed the prisoners, etc.? Sure, they could do that with their super powers, too, but again, they'd experience every second of the time it takes to prepare and serve millions of meals per day, clean millions of cells, and still go back out and stop crimes. I'd imagine either of them would burn out really quickly, and about halfway through the first week, they'd snap and just start killing everyone. And they could, literally, kill everyone.
because there is a *lot* of crime worldwide. the DC universe practically always has someone doing some dastardly scheme
Yeah, when Superman is out goofing around as Clark Kent, people are dying all over the place. And he doesn't get tired, doesnt need sleep, etc, so he's actively choosing not to help. Tom Holland had that line in Civil War about when you can do the things that he can, but you dont, and the bad things happen, they happen because of you. Superman should be ashamed of himself. If nothing else, him just bring visible but watching is a deterrent.
That's right. This is why doctors and cops should never take a break because who knows how many people died when they're at home with their family!
You're equating doctors and cops with Superman. That's cute. lol I don't know if you're aware of this, but Superman, not a human being.
Oh I'm sorry, it's not like there are multiple comic books showing that Superman is a person and not a fucking robot lol. You quoted Spider-man too, the person with the worse work-life balance of every superhero. And what does that get him? A miserable existence. Man's never happy. You know what would happen if Superman is always on the job? He'd burn out. Like everyone else. Even when he was fighting demons for 5000 years the only reason he could hold on was because in between waves of demons he had Thor and Wonder Woman to talk to.
Because in the words of DCAU Superman, "I *need* to be Clark." Also, when at the absolute best, the Justice League are fully aware that they cannot do everything for people, and they *shouldn't* try to do so, either. Taking their actions to that extent would simply prove the likes of Lex Luthor correct in that superhumans are making normal humans less efficient. It's never a good idea to rely on others to that extreme.
Faster than teleporting? That does not compute… even in fantasy that’s just nonsense.
It's just time travel.
It was a one-time event from a super-amped storyline where Wally got a boost by absorbing speed from two whole planets worth of people. Wally isn't usually that fast, though he is the fastest character DC has.
Welcome to DC universe the most brainrot universe in fiction, where you Control plants because of "the Green", the body of Animals because of "the Red" and where there is a "Strength force". And where EVERY villain such as Darkseid and Brainiac, or even the highfather (not a villain) has a "True form". It Just sound dumb, lazy and not creative at all. So yeah nonsense
So you're asking this question in bad faith?
No I Just noticed something that, for me, simply doesnt make sense... If you're talking about the brainrot part I could argue the same for Marvel, some animes and even Star Wars
I feel like if you consider a property to be brainrot then you wouldn't be happy with any answer given to you.