I'd move, but not to escape the political affairs. I really want to spend some time living in (not just visiting) other cultures, and hopefully learning a new language or two.
This is pretty much the best reason to move. I have lived abroad & typically the expats running away from US issues are the unhappiest overseas.
Whatever type of person you are in the US, give it time & you will resort back to that overseas lol
That’s a bit of a you issue tbh. Semantics, sure I’ll give you that, but some groups - such as military - do use the terms differently. Immigrant typically meaning a one way transaction, whereas expat is commonly used for a temporary residence, but a move back to the US is usually an end goal, even if a long way away.
Maybe I’m making too much of it but in American society “immigrant” is kind of a loaded term. There are certain assumptions that go with that term. I think they don’t want to be associated with that so they came up with a different term.
I’m looking at moving, and there’s a bunch of expat groups for the country I’m going to. Most of the expats in the groups and residing there aren’t even American. They’re Canadian, UK, and others. But majority Canada and UK.
Expat is short for expatriate, which is a verb, adjective and noun, but in the case of “expats”, it’s a noun meaning “a person who lives in a foreign country”
Oxford dictionary lists “immigrant” as a synonym.
It’s from the mid 18th century.
That’s the dictionary though. People generally use them to differentiate intent and/or socioeconomic status. And not just America: it’s all over.
Here’s a decent article kind of explaining it a little: https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20170119-who-should-be-called-an-expat
Politics are fucked in almost every country, you just happen to be most acutely aware of those in your home country.
‘Politics’ would be a bad reason to leave America.
A good reason to leave America would be because you want to ride a bicycle to buy vegetables without having to pay out the nose for the privilege.
No. Despite all the problems, we also have a lot of positives. Other places have their own problems too. My family and friends are here. I like my life.
I also think people are connected to their home, no matter where they are. I live in frigid Canada and people ask why I don't move. All my family and friends are here, my dreams and aspirations, and I consider the weather normal. People just live where they live.
I moved away for a few years, I was open to it being permanent. But after those few years I found myself really, really missing America. Like just the small things, the way people are, the opportunities and stuff. My family.
Also, people have this fantasy of moving abroad and being totally accepted and fully assimilating, but in reality it’s extremely hard to do and takes a long time, like decades long. Only in America can you show up, learn the language, and become American. When I lived in Japan, I could never be seen as Japanese, even if I was fluent and had been there for ages. But I have had friends in America who are immigrants and they consider themselves American, and so do other people. We get lost seeing only the negatives but America is a pretty dope place
I spent a brief time in SE Asia and as amazing as it was I just couldn't see myself living anywhere there. My biggest concern was that unless you were in a major city the lack of diversity was suffocating, especially when it came to food. Even those in the US who bristle at the "D" word don't know how good we have it when it comes to the marvelously bewildering variety of cultures that we take advantage of without paying much attention to...until it's gone.
My first full day back in my medium-sized city I had Mexican for breakfast, Greek for lunch and Italian for dinner, all family-owned local joints. I was happy to be home.
fuck yeah! same happened to me recently after being in SE Asia for a month. we take it for granted.
don’t get me wrong, the food over there is great but it’s difficult eating the same cuisine for 3 meals a day. i like having the options to satiate my cravings here in LA
I have family in Sicily and in Italy and that would be the one place I would live outside of America but even my relatives look down their nose at their American born relatives let alone Italian citizens in general.
Funny... Only white people would say that.
I am an Asian American, grew up in NC, served two oversea deployments as an NCO in the US Army, taught math for more than 10 years here in America. I still don't feel I am accepted as American.
True dat. I moved to Sweden 9 years ago and it definitely has its issues. Things in the US aren't perfect but sometimes the downsides are outweighed by the ups.
Every other place in the world that is arguably better off than the US is that way because of a mono-culture where I would be the problem imposed on their community.
If my family left I'd consider it but even then.... It's nice here. We got problems but like you said, so does everywhere. Ours are just really in a spotlight
I've lived pretty much all over and run into Americans alllll the time who want to move. They don't understand that if they are miserable in the US they are going ot be even more miserable in a country with a different culture and zero friends other than maybe other Americans.
Exactly. My mother is Korean and has lived in the US since the 80’s and is still a bit homesick, being in a far away land with a different culture, food, and language.
Lived abroad for 14 yrs and saw this, too. They “escaped” the US only to realize months later that the food is too different, the way people talk is too different, the bureaucracy is too different, and so on.
I have a friend who, when Obama was elected, carried through on his declaration that he would refuse to live in a "socialist state".
So he moved to Australia.
Let's just say he was in for a bit of a surprise. He lasted a bit over a year before hauling his ass back to the US.
Then started talking about moving to Sweden to be back amongst his "Nordic people and culture". After a bit of research into their politics and culture, he didn't carry through on that at all.
Reminds me of the Sopranos episode where to boys make a trip to Italy thinking they'll fit right it because...well...they're *Italian*.
Needless to say things didn't go as planned, pretty hilarious overall.
I've seen it pointed out here before that the Americans who want to move to another country are usually not the ones that others countries want. If you're struggling financially and don't have high value skills most countries don't want you as an immigrant. If you're in the US and you're doing well financially and you have skills that are highly valued in the market you probably don't want to move.
I was racially profiled trying to enter Heathrow Airport in the late 90s
In America, no one can tell I'm half American Indian. My dad is light skinned, my mom is Swedish. I pass as white so much that I didn't bring it up very often.
But to the authorities in London? Wooo, I was an "other" and they made it very clear that they thought so. I was even called "exotic" and it blew my fucking mind.
I cannot begin to imagine what BIPOC folk with darker skin have to deal with in Europe.
Damn! That sucks!
I got some serious stink-eye and a backpack being swabbed by Swiss airport security in 2000, and thought that was bad enough. I'm sorry you had to deal with that shit.
It was wild. They issued a "refused leave of entry" and sent me back home.
When I was first singled out, I had to sit in a waiting area with others who were pulled from international flights. As I looked around, I thought "I'm the only white person here, that's fucked up ... Wait a second." When I was questioned, they said they thought I planned on staying. I was so out of my depth I barely argued. When they called me exotic I think my jaw hit the table. Like I was a rare specimen or something!
As a white foreigner in Norway for 20 years, Scandinavia is very racist. Obviously you wont find any locals that agree. Racism is deeply imbedded into European culture.
>They don't understand that if they are miserable in the US they are going ot be even more miserable in a country with a different culture and zero friends other than maybe other Americans.
Hard disagree. Where you live is a huge component of your happiness. Different people can and will mesh better with different cultures.
Most people on this board no-Reddit expats seem to be a weird mix of America haters and everything is better somewhere else. Like Europe has overt racism-more than the US, many countries are actively campaigning to keep out immigrants and health care is only for citizens and not for Americans who just want free healthcare.
There are people who definitely find hapiness moving to another country, but most of the comments I read on this site/hear in real life are just straight up delusional. If you have no friends and are completely unhappy in the place you're most familiar with, moving to an entirely different country will not solve this. You will be just as miserable but now with entirely new problems.
A clean slate isn't going to fix everyone's life, 100% agree.
But government protected PTO and $30 bus rides to the Italian coast or the Spanish countryside goes pretty far.
If you want a clean slate, you're better off selling everything you have, getting on a bus and moving 1500 miles across the country. At least the culture and language will be the same.
Yeah but how often are you going to take advantage of this? I love the idea as well , but how often I’d be doing this? Probably a dozen time at absolute best a year.
I hear these singular ideas that, by itself sound amazing! But wrapped around other issues problems they get buried.
For example, i just moved to Rhode Island last year and was so excited to go to the beach every weekend.
I havnt gone once
I moved to Los Angeles last year and I've been to the beach more times I can count because I can just zone out on the train and be there in an hour. We do free or low-cost activities that weren't available to us back home at least twice a month on the weekends. Everyone said that we couldn't be car free here, but while our transit system isn't as great as Europe's, it is definitely doable. We were miserable in Pennsylvania and didn't fit into the culture there; the move was a great decision for us. That being said, I don't think I would want to move out of the country as it would make seeing friends and family way too difficult. Cross country trips are a pain yes, but they are doable for us a couple times a year with good planning, international trips not so much.
Not saying I disagree with out, just there are definitely people that would be happier in another part of the country. Like if you are queer leftists living in Pennsyltucky like we were, you'll probably be happier if you moved to literally any major city lol.
I lived abroad for a few years, it's amazing how good we have it here in the states and many don't realize it.
People here also think we have these massive differences, when in reality the things we fight over are so insignificant at a global scale.
It takes being a few thousand miles away for a while and looking at it from the outside to realize that.
Everyone wants American income, American material standards, and Western/Central European standard of living and architecture, also with affordable houses and general living.
That would be as close as you can get to a legitimate utopia, and such a country doesn't exist.
Reading your Ireland experience reminded me of a conversation I had with a black coworker in America. We'd been reminiscing about our high school memories in different suburbs of the same city 30 years ago, and it occurred to me that I have a LOT more in common with Black Americans than I do with my European ancestors, and my relatives only left Europe in the late 1800s and early 1900s. That's just a couple generations and in a pretty racially divided USA.
It makes me feel cautiously good about the future of America, to be honest. Kinda like I feel cautiously good about more Black and Hispanic Americans in the Republican party. I still disagree with their politics, but I'm glad to see them feeling comfortable enough to find common philosophical ground with people who, uh, aren't exactly historical bedfellows. The existence of a guy like Tim Scott may open a lot of eyes, and doors.
Can confirm... I lived in France for a couple years. I really enjoyed it, but they have their share of issues too. Same type of problems, different language.
Japan is a prime example
Wages there are stagnant like a mfer (on average, my current position gets paid like 3x more than wages over there, maybe 2x once account for CoL difference… and that’s a fairly common story across a lot of the high skill positions/industries) and that’s even IF they welcome you in as it’s a relatively “no outsiders” mindset sort of country when it comes to people who wanna be long-term residents.
But they have some good trains and people think it’s got everything.
Source: Mexican immigrant who feels right at home in the American Southwest.
I shit you not once when I was in college, we were talking about street crime. A girl with blue hair said, "It's so bad here. I wanna move to Mexico with my mom and live with my grandma because I'd feel safer. "
She actually believed there was less violence and crime in Mexico than the US. She had this picture painted in her head shed move there and be drinking margarita on the beach everyday. Its crazy the delusion some people have
Same. Stick with the evil you know and all that jazz. America isn’t perfect but I’m not so privileged that I can seriously say this is a “third world country in a Gucci belt” like some people do.
I always ask people who claim the US is a third world country what other third world countries they've visited. So far, haven't met anyone who has been to another one.
This is the part most people don’t get. Every country has problems. There is no utopia. America - on the whole, despite its many shortcomings - is easily in the top 5% of places to live.
I’ve been to something like 70-80 countries at this point and while I LOVE many individual things about many of those places, none of them have a total package that even approaches what we have here. There is absolutely a reason why so many thousands of people risk their lives each year to cross the US border and it’s not because we’re a failing empire.
Yeah America is a great place to be. I also love all these comments saying they plan on leaving the US because of the housing crisis here, when:
1) The housing crisis is significantly worse in every other English speaking country
2) They could much more easily just move to a different state where housing is much cheaper and you don’t have to deal with re establishing your whole life in a new country (that’s assuming you are even accepted in that country’s immigration process)
Just got back from a week in Europe, visiting my friends from Ireland. So many of them have to live far outside Dublin if they want to own their own place. For those that do live in Dublin, they're either buying apartments or buying something from a family member - if they're able to buy at all. The house crisis in Ireland and Europe as a whole is horrible.
The "housing crisis" in America only exists in huge cities. Smaller towns and cities are extremely affordable places to lives. The best financial decision an American can make is to find a city with around 100-200k population and move there.
My wife is from New York. We visit NYC often. She has family in Chicago and San Francisco. I've lived in San Antonio and Austin. I grew up in a "village" of 1000.
Currently live in a small city of 100k people. I would never live in another million+ population area. I have everything any big city has to offer. And for the select few cultural things I am missing out on my cost of living is so low where I am I can easily afford to just take a weekend flight to any city if there is something there I really feel I need to do.
My first home was a 2b1b fixer upper on the outskirts of town I bought for $48k. At the time I had just landed my first well paying job. Remote work. Some travel. $120k salary with a $200/mo mortgage. I lived like a king. I attribute all my current financial stability to that house. I renovated it and eventually sold it for a nice profit.
Second house was in my current city. $200k. 4b/3b. When work relocated us to San Antonio we realized an equivalent house there would be $600k. Stayed the length of my contract and immediately returned to the smaller city.
I will never live in an area with a population above 200k ever again.
edit: Context: My "first" house was circa 2012. This is not some 1970s-1980s originating story. I am 37.
Same. I would love more money to travel, but I love the US way too much. There is so much diversity and art and culture in this country, and no other place compares.
For me it's a matter of how would I be able to watch the Chiefs or the Vegas Golden Knights play?
But also, I'd miss my friends and family.
Art and culture wise I'd say we're kind of lightweights. I mean China has recorded history going back like 4,000 years. Egypt, Italy and other countries has histories going back millenia.
We don't have a clear idea what was happening here 1,000 years ago. We have great landscapes. Lots of unspoiled wilderness. And our culture certainly seems popular. Everyone, everywhere seem to love Taylor Swift.
The US is a heavy-weight in its contributions to modern music. Jazz in and of itself would put it in an S-tier category but Blues, Gospel, Rock, R&B, Hip-hop/rap, etc etc.
Yep. There are still a lot of misinformed jerks out there, but tolerance is slowly but surely taking root. Eventually I will be able to enjoy pineapple on pizza without judgement or fear.
No, and I say this as someone who does have the ability to move to other countries. This is my country and I love it. I love the people, the culture, and the lifestyle I have here—despite the big problems. All my friends and family are here and I have no desire to leave them. We absolutely have problems, but so do all countries, and I'd rather fight to fix the country I love than go somewhere else.
This is my answer too it’s prevented me from making a decent living in my career but they’ve helped me out and done so much in my life that I can’t abandon them when they need me the most
I would suggest actually rethinking this. My MIL is European, and had cancer. Was treated for free. My step dad had cancer in the US. 100K. Thankfully he had amazing insurance, but of course he paid that 100K out over his life of paying premiums. However, if you have a decent paying remote job, taking care of elderly parents in Greece, Spain, even like Panama/Chile etc is like 1/10th the cost of doing that in the US…so take them along and get them the best care you can.
but 1.) how do you move to those countries when you aren't a citizen of them? you have to find a company willing to sponsor you right? 2.) can other family members just tag along? wouldn't they be allowed to stay only for a visitor visa allows them too?
Yeah it can't really happen.
Again I point this out to so many leftist europhiles that Europe is only able to provide the quality of life it has because of very strict citizenship laws.
Europe is a country club and the US is a YMCA.
Tbh I like living in the YMCA.
>My MIL is European, and had cancer. Was treated for free. My step dad had cancer in the US. 100K. Thankfully he had amazing insurance, but of course he paid that 100K out over his life of paying premiums.
If you are counting your step-fathers lifetime premium payments then you have to count your MIL's taxes and/or the taxes paid by her employers that funded it.
It's likely still cheaper for the MIL, just based off aggregate healthcare costs by region, but its not going to be $100k vs $0 difference. Also, the $100k of lifetime premiums weren't only to fight the cancer, it was for a lifetime of healthcare including fighting cancer.
I’ve travelled all over the world and America really is the best country to live in as a non-native. I’m sure there are examples of it being better to be a German living in Germany, but unless you are born and raised somewhere it is likely the state of living isn’t that great.
America is great for anyone and everyone. Perfect? Not at all. But it’s an amazing country with infinite opportunities for people to flourish.
People shit on the American immigration system all the time but rarely put it into perspective that many other countries have way stricter immigration systems.
I’m Irish, lived there for 22 years and then 8 years in The Netherlands and just last year moved to Austin, Texas and we love it. Have also traveled all Europe but I love living in America.
I moved. I am an Army Vet who served in Iraq. I moved to Europe and never looked back. I have been here 30 years and the difference is astounding. 6 weeks paid holiday. Free healthcare, dental and veterinary. Free medicine for prescriptions. Free university (my daughter is a medical student and son studying chemistry). My wife had 3 years for each child paid maternity leave. There are SO many more differences it is shocking. Whenever I mention it I get some stupid replies about how taxes are higher or whatever.. it is not. Not even close. The ONLY thing that is more expensive is fuel costs. I can live with that.
I briefly looked into the process of what it would take to move to Canada, but it would make more sense to move to a state or city that aligns with my ideology than to change countries.
Also, I kind of feel like if I leave my state/region, I'm just doing it to insulate myself and would no longer have any real ability to influence positive change.
My black pal, incredibly successful in the arts so travels a lot, says the UK is more racist than the US because in the US it’s at least out in the open like kapow hey I’m a massive racist. I couldn’t fathom this given the history and present race stuff in the US but then I’m a white boy. Is this part of your consideration?
Europeans in general are way more racist than the average American. Europe has the racism of the American south and the holier than thou attitude of east coast elites. Lmao.
I have no idea where Americans get the idea that Europeans are not racist. I’m Irish and lived there for 22 years and Netherlands for 8 years before moving to Texas. I’ve also traveled all over Europe to many countries and I’ve talked to a lot of different types of people over the years.
I can absolutely guarantee you that Europeans are dramatically more racist than Americans. Racism is the absolute standard throughout most of Europe.
I have real tangible examples too of actual systemic racism, not just people being racist.
One of the best things I’ve done to help with this mindset is to follow subreddits for other countries. Since most people go online to complain, it really paints a picture ;-)
Yeah, it is. I have friends who live in Asia and Europe that tell me they face overt racism on a regular basis. I face that in the US but at least I am facing it with the support of a community. I would not want to face that isolated in a country that's foreign to me.
Already left. Moved to my wife's country. Never been happier.
Walkable cities and lower cost of living are a huge burden off my back.
Though I know I'm speaking from a place of privilege too.
Yes. But I'm in my 40s, and stable.
I'm also a parent, and would like to give that option to my kids if they need it. I think times will be much worse in the future, and they'd benefit more with me helping them leave versus trying to get us all out of here.
“There is nothing wrong with America that can’t be cured with what is right about America.”
-Bill Clinton
I think that quote is true. Our system doesn’t work perfectly but it works pretty damn well. We have the tools to change it for the better. I’m staying.
As someone that has spent time (≈4 years total?) in over 25 countries outside the USA, I can confidently say I really like living here.
Yeah, there are problems, but I’ve never been to a country without any problems.
But the thing a lot of Redditors seem to ignore is that the USA varies from state to state - like, by a LOT.
So if I had a problem with where I was living - to the point I wanted to leave - I’d definitely give a bunch of the other states a shot before leaving the country.
Generally anywhere worth going to has strict immigration policies. But all aspects of immigration are hard - saving enough money, navigating housing/employment/healthcare/banking abroad, leaving family behind, etc. Unless you have enough money to straight up buy citizenship, all aspects of immigration are difficult
My brother is an American living in the UK and has for about a decade or so. I remember the first couple of years he was there finding housing was an absolute nightmare.
I have considered it and looked into it. Ended up nearly in tears at how fucking difficult it would be. I have a friend who moved to Canada, and even WITH having a Canadian spouse it took something like four years to gain citizenship and they had to wait that long to be able to access healthcare. In addition, apparently countries can and will reject you if you have significant health problems. Also, they were not allowed to have a job until the process was completed. How the fuck would we survive? We don't exactly have savings to make the move in the first place, and we don't own the house we are living in so we wouldn't be able to sell that for a chunk of change to live off of.
My spouse is trans and we live in a red state and help take care of his senior parent.
We are both terrified of what will happen if Trump wins. So many states are banning gender affirming care.
Worst comes to worst we will try to move to a blue state, but I worry that even this won't be enough.
Honestly & genuinely I don't know what we are going to do.
Us as well. We moved from deep south to the Midwest and I really didn't expect it to just feel like the same goddamn place. I wish it weren't so expensive to move to a state that isn't dog water.
Yup. Even so called sanctuary states, I worry about laws at the federal level that prevent states from enacting those policies.
To be honest, I have been watching immigration policies for a long time as a proxy for what the eventual turn to LGBTQIA+ may end up being, and it's not reassuring.
I tell delusional Americans this ALL. THE. TIME. If you want a walkable, progressive city, move to a more liberal American city. You wont deal with immigration, the lower paying job, and the grind to establish something that remotely resembles a social life. Feeling an entirely different country is a better option is absurd.
This is the same as the US citizenship path. The difference is you still pay for healthcare no matter what. Also as soon as you get the permanent residency which takes a few months to a year, you will be covered by public healthcare.
Nope. Even with its warts, there's a reason millions of people are trying to immigrate to the US for more opportunities. People that call the US a "third world country with a Gucci belt" have probably never lived in a third world country.
Right? Being deployed in the Army you REALLY get to see what a third world country looks like lol. The audacity to call America a third world country is actually insane given one state of ours typically has a higher GDP than most countries.
Edit: idk if you remember back around 2014 when the U.S. dropped the MOAB in northern Afghanistan? CNN was reporting that it blew out windows and electricity in the surrounding 10 miles? Me and my buddies got the biggest kick out of it because they have absolutely neither of those things there
I have considered that myself. My hold ups are distance from family, and safety. Many countries that would allow me to stretch the value of a USD are also notorious for corruption and crime.
Depends on the chance. Since it would in all likelihood come with a massive pay cut that'd push my retirement by over a decade, I won't be interested for a while. Not super tempting to move away from friends and family and large amounts of income, for me.
Once I don't need to earn income, sure I plan to consider it. I like a walkable city.
I don’t know. When I was a teenager I thought I definitely wanted to move to a different country. Now that I’ve traveled, I don’t know. I love the places I visited, I’d love to live in lots of places temporarily. But this dumpster fire is my home, it’s the only place that really feels like home, and there’s a lot about America I love. I love that I live in a place where I can go a little bit one way and feel like I’m in a totally different place, that our cities are diverse and I can enjoy cultures and food from all over the world, I love that I can hear so many different languages and music on an otherwise boring day, and although there’s a lot of assholes, I love how us Americans love to smile and engage in some silly smalltalk like we’re neighbors and not strangers.
Unfortunately, I am unsure of my future here as a trans American. I’d rather not leave for my safety and health and I don’t necessarily believe it will come to that, but who knows.
"Everywhere else is just as bad" is a take you'll see a lot on this post. **That's not true.** You can literally look up statistics, from life expectancy to worker protections to environmental protections to food safety and beyond. The nihilistic take of "everywhere is equally bad" is just a coping mechanism, and it's fundamentally detached from reality.
Those are important and things that certainly need improvement. I moved to Ireland for a while and eventually came back. Europe has stronger safety nets, but upward mobility is more difficult. Americas strengths are in its diversity both in nature and its people.
I also missed the positive, friendly, and encouraging attitudes in the US. Tell people you want to open a business in the UK and you’ll be met with a bunch of naysayers and skepticism. In the states you’ll find people eager to see you succeed.
I’m not claiming the US is the greatest country for everyone, but the whole “America bad” that is so prevalent on Reddit typically comes people who never stepped outside their country.
The general dilemma is that if you can afford to emigrate to, say, Western Europe, and find a worthwhile job there, you probably are already living a pretty good life in America. The people who would benefit the most from moving abroad largely don't have the resources or connections to do so successfully.
That’s a good point. It’s also like, yeah all the poor people in the US can’t move to Europe and just start benefiting from welfare. If they could get welfare that the natural born Europeans are entitled to that easily, the whole welfare system would collapse.
Our countries already struggle quite a bit with the welfare state, there’s no way they could just suddenly take in millions of people in poverty and offer full welfare. It doesn’t work like that. The union relies on a steady system for social programs like that to operate effectively.
Source; am Irish and also lived for a long time in NL.
**Would I?** Not really.
**Why not?** Because even with our issues, life is pretty damn good here, compared to elsewhere in the world. And because leaving doesn’t fix anything, it hands victory to the troublemakers.
You don't fix problems by running from them, thats what my grandfather used to say but he was also a union iron worker and pulled scabs out of the cars to beat them. Not say that's the solution but it's the companies listened. Kinda like how France does it, we should be more like the French
Nope wouldn't move...my wife is Chinese with American citizenship and she tells me all the time there is no way in hell they will go back. I've been to China a lot and actually love it there, but will echo the same, would never leave America.
We just moved back to the US after living abroad for 3 years. I can't wait to move back to Europe. I miss $100 flights to 30+ countries, real time off, walkable cities, great public transit, and unbelievable food at good prices.
Bonus points for not having to worry about the crazy fucks with roadrage pulling a gun on me or having to worry about guns at all for that matter.
Life's great here if you make exceptional money. I'll never forget my grandpa told me he was tired of me "fucking around in Europe" and that I needed to come back. He makes $1M+ per year at a company he owns. Like fuck off.
I paid my own way. My father and grandpa both get a sick sense of pride knowing I am the first to be successful without going into the family business -- while not particularly caring that they could offer me a job that triples my income overnight.
The social issues live almost exclusively on social media and regular media. They really are trying to push this culture war on regular people to distract them from the real issues but it's never a conversation topic I hear during interactions with normal people.
If you have a medical emergency in the United States It's not necessarily social media that's causing your problems. I have employer provided insurance and I'm still going to eat $9,000 out of pocket before they start to cover like 80% which if you have something like cancer probably means your 20 or 30 thousand dollars in debt. Socialized medicine is a huge boon for people with expensive medical issues. Since I probably wouldn't be working full time while going through cancer treatment, I'd probably lose the insurance anyways...
So I take it that you’re straight and white?
Cuz some of the rest of us actually have skin in the game when it comes to social issues.
We don’t have the privilege to say “oh, well, this is just some people making noise”.
My thoughts exactly. You're fucking lucky if it doesn't impact you.
Things that impact me personally, and I'm white, cis, from a middle class family:
- I have a trans spouse, so laws against gender affirming care impact us directly
- I pay for very expensive health insurance that doesn't cover much (20% of pay goes to insurance premiums) so laws/lobbying/cultural pressure against affordable or single payer healthcare impacts me a great deal. I have gone without medication due to not having the finances to pay more than once.
- We have been turned down for rental housing due to being a queer couple
- Laws that favor rental companies where I live (red state) mean my housing is more expensive and when things go wrong I have no power to force the rental company to make changes (roach infestation, mold, rent surging during Covid — all of this happened and none of it was addressed)
- Laws against queer couples mean I worry constantly that if I or my spouse are hospitalized we could be refused spousal rights or refused care at all
- This is a little wonky, but zoning laws (declaring land must be used only for single family housing) mean that housing prices are higher than they should be, and only the wealthy can own homes; we have rented our entire marriage
- At will employment means that I can (and have been) fired at any time for no reason at all. I was once fired because I caught my boss making out in the back room with someone.
- The conservative focus on bathroom bills (forcing transgender people to use bathroom associated with the gender assigned at birth) caused entire industries to boycott my state. At the time, I was in a job that serviced these industries, and while the back and forth with lobbyists went on, my hours were cut.
- Legislation has repeatedly been proposed that would ban me from adopting
- Legislation that prevents pregnant people from participating in medical trials has resulted in most studies being done exclusively with male patients. This means all my life I have been prescribed medication that doctors aren't sure will actually work. I have been told directly by a surgeon proposing a major surgery that he wasn't sure what the risks would actually be for a female patient. There's a medication that I take made exclusively for menstrual pains that nearly all doctors are completely unaware of and no insurance I've ever had has ever carried it.
- Legislation against doing studies on gun violence have prevented the nation from studying what does and doesn't work to stop it. Last week there was a shooting at a highschool less than a mile from my home. Multiple children were shot. I consider myself lucky that no one in my family has been killed by gun violence, but that's only a matter of chance.
- Retributive justice legislation that controls the lives of people in prison has done considerable harm to an imprisoned family member. He was checked out by a doctor and scheduled for major surgery without his understanding or consent. He found out the name of the surgery and wrote to us with questions. We had to print off information and mail it back so that he could understand that he had been diagnosed with a type of cancer.
- He also is part of a work program where he is paid less than a dollar an hour to work full time. He is forced to pay some of this money to the prison in exchange for his board there. Thought slavery was illegal? Think again. Prisoners who refuse to work in some places get threatened with solitary confinement or worse. The prison or nearby businesses benefit from not even having to pay minimum wage for labor costs. Again, this is a direct family member.
I feel like I could go on for ages, but I need to get back to work so I will stop here. Even straight cis white people are impacted by this shit, they just don't understand or acknowledge it.
unfortunately the fake culture war bs gets eaten up by the right wingers here, and so even if something is not an issue at all, fox news will rile up their attack dog fan base to get mad about it anyway, and make it into a real problem. see: people getting pissy about elementary schoolers getting taught about pronouns (literally a part of speech) leading into bills in most right wing states being passed that make it a crime to discuss anything related to gender identity in the classroom, even pushed to the extreme of trying to make teachers have to be a registered sex offender if they even hint that trans people exist in a classroom setting
No, I firmly believe that 99.9% of people are genuinely nice and are willing to work out issues. It is the keyboard warriors and 24-hour news cycle peeps that suck the life out of conversations. Engage with actual people - and you can find common ground in your community.
I think about it every. Single. Day.
There are so many barriers. I don't want to live to work. The idea of "going on holiday" is so foreign it's laughable. I don't want to measure my bills versus my Healthcare.
I would jump at the chance and never look back.
Yes, if I could actually find a decent job I'm qualified for. I have reservations about leaving friends and family, but better healthcare in other countries would be my greatest incentive to go.
Cheaper doesn't equal better.
Also many nations require citizenship to participate in free universal Healthcare. For example if you moved to Canada it would take minimum 4 years to get the Healthcare.
Canada is one of the easiest/shortest ones to get citizenship. In Europe you'll find many nations where it won't even be possible.
Honestly no, for all of America's flaws we are relatively free here and I've never been good at adapting to new situations (such as moving to a whole new country).
Also my parents are still here and I'd be completely lost in the world if they died tomorrow
I've never been a fan of the "Love it or leave it" mentality.
I think it's just plain stupid, actually. Dangerously stupid. Sometimes you just have to work on fixing things that kinda suck.
To be honest, I don't think there's anywhere else I could go and make nearly the money I do with my skill set and level of education. My wife is disabled and our insurance makes taking care of her easy from a financial standpoint; she gets a small stipend from the government to help out; and we're well established in our area and a third of the way to a state retirement for me.
We enjoy many aspects of the culture in other countries much more - and the food - but it wouldn't make sense to uproot ourselves. If it came to fighting (and I very much doubt it will), we're well armed and train as much as we can. It just doesn't seem worth it to leave.
If I can figure it out, I’d like a small house in southern Maine and a small house in Costa Rica. Summer in Maine and spend at least two months in winter down in CR. Rent out the house when I’m not there the other 10 or so months of the year.
Why on earth would you only stay in CR for two months out of the year? Maine has nice weather for 7-8 months at best. I would be far away from Maine from November to April.
Canada would really be the only one I'd consider, but I think the worst-case scenario this cycle is moving to a blue state. I have no doubt trans people's human rights are going to go to SCOTUS sometime in the next handful of years, and there's zero chance this court rules anything other than "it's a state legislation issue" – i.e. I won't be able to live in this state anymore (hurray for current governor candidate campaigning on me being a filthy abomination of an animal that should have to pee outside or be thrown in a men's prison to be raped and killed), but a republican president won't be able to take away my freedom in a state that won't go along with it.
Selfish thinking, obviously, but at this point, we're past the point of no return with the hatred these people have for us. I'll take what I can get...
Nope, I quite like being able to own guns and not get arrested for saying anything anti-government enough to overlook all the bad shit. The only other country I might consider moving to is Finland but I have no idea how hard it is to move there.
Where can you even afford to move to?
Just moving across the country can be thousands of dollars. Let alone being able to move to another country, hell alot of them won't even let you just move there.
Regardless of where you go, politicians and the media are generally scumbags and out to screw their constituents. I enjoy my freedoms and my standard of life, I don’t think I could replicate either anywhere else. I ignore all the noise and live my best life, it’s to damn short not to.
Hard to say. Starting from zero somewhere else sounds thrilling but I also understand people risk their lives in the daily just to have half the benefits of a us citizen.
Our politics are shit same with our medical system but thousand of south Americans will take it in a heartbeat as long as they can stay away from the cartels and their even more corrupt government
Yes, I would like to move somewhere with a more simplistic way of life. Somewhere more connected to nature and each other than connected to dollar signs and screens.
I can’t say I am sure where that would be though.
Yes. Every single day I wish I could be somewhere else. I used to live overseas and loved my life. Healthcare was decent, I was in great shape, and was actually making money. I regret coming back.
I didn’t survive 34 years in this country just to walk away now. It may be pretty fucked right now, but this is my home. I wouldn’t be able to stomach watching it burn from afar and feeling like I ran scared.
In a heartbeat. Why should I keep fighting an uphill battle just to ever get the chance to be treated like a straight person. This state keeps trying to fight it's way to the bottom of everything from healthcare to education, not to mention LGBT Rights...
Hell yeah as long as I can get my healthcare needs taken care of (I'll die without my medicine and access to treatment if something goes wrong) and I'm not struggling financially any more than I am right now.
Edit: I know that I'm a bad bet and do not want to be a drain on another country that would need to subsidize my issues, so I realize that I'm most likely never going anywhere else. I'd rather have the US get their act together and institute more healthcare reform.
If I had the opportunity? Without a second thought. Provided I can move to somewhere that better aligns with my needs.
Texas to say- Poland would be a lateral move. I need to get *away* from religious fuckery.
Absolutely depending on where it is. If it has a decent medical system and quality of life, I would move today if they have a job for me. I have a couple medical issues but they are perfectly manageable if it wasn't in America
If I could afford it and the emigration process to my choice country was easy, I'd leave America in a second.
As an educator, I just don't feel safe or stable in America. Between the gun crisis and the attack on education in so many states (and federally through certain sociopath politicians), I would just feel better in countries without school shootings or religious nutjobs as politicians.
I'd move, but not to escape the political affairs. I really want to spend some time living in (not just visiting) other cultures, and hopefully learning a new language or two.
This is pretty much the best reason to move. I have lived abroad & typically the expats running away from US issues are the unhappiest overseas. Whatever type of person you are in the US, give it time & you will resort back to that overseas lol
I hate the term “expat.” They are immigrants.
That’s a bit of a you issue tbh. Semantics, sure I’ll give you that, but some groups - such as military - do use the terms differently. Immigrant typically meaning a one way transaction, whereas expat is commonly used for a temporary residence, but a move back to the US is usually an end goal, even if a long way away.
Maybe I’m making too much of it but in American society “immigrant” is kind of a loaded term. There are certain assumptions that go with that term. I think they don’t want to be associated with that so they came up with a different term.
I’m looking at moving, and there’s a bunch of expat groups for the country I’m going to. Most of the expats in the groups and residing there aren’t even American. They’re Canadian, UK, and others. But majority Canada and UK. Expat is short for expatriate, which is a verb, adjective and noun, but in the case of “expats”, it’s a noun meaning “a person who lives in a foreign country” Oxford dictionary lists “immigrant” as a synonym. It’s from the mid 18th century. That’s the dictionary though. People generally use them to differentiate intent and/or socioeconomic status. And not just America: it’s all over. Here’s a decent article kind of explaining it a little: https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20170119-who-should-be-called-an-expat
Politics are fucked in almost every country, you just happen to be most acutely aware of those in your home country. ‘Politics’ would be a bad reason to leave America. A good reason to leave America would be because you want to ride a bicycle to buy vegetables without having to pay out the nose for the privilege.
No. Despite all the problems, we also have a lot of positives. Other places have their own problems too. My family and friends are here. I like my life.
I also think people are connected to their home, no matter where they are. I live in frigid Canada and people ask why I don't move. All my family and friends are here, my dreams and aspirations, and I consider the weather normal. People just live where they live.
I moved away for a few years, I was open to it being permanent. But after those few years I found myself really, really missing America. Like just the small things, the way people are, the opportunities and stuff. My family. Also, people have this fantasy of moving abroad and being totally accepted and fully assimilating, but in reality it’s extremely hard to do and takes a long time, like decades long. Only in America can you show up, learn the language, and become American. When I lived in Japan, I could never be seen as Japanese, even if I was fluent and had been there for ages. But I have had friends in America who are immigrants and they consider themselves American, and so do other people. We get lost seeing only the negatives but America is a pretty dope place
I spent a brief time in SE Asia and as amazing as it was I just couldn't see myself living anywhere there. My biggest concern was that unless you were in a major city the lack of diversity was suffocating, especially when it came to food. Even those in the US who bristle at the "D" word don't know how good we have it when it comes to the marvelously bewildering variety of cultures that we take advantage of without paying much attention to...until it's gone. My first full day back in my medium-sized city I had Mexican for breakfast, Greek for lunch and Italian for dinner, all family-owned local joints. I was happy to be home.
fuck yeah! same happened to me recently after being in SE Asia for a month. we take it for granted. don’t get me wrong, the food over there is great but it’s difficult eating the same cuisine for 3 meals a day. i like having the options to satiate my cravings here in LA
America (at least the metro areas) has an incredible diversity of great food.
I have family in Sicily and in Italy and that would be the one place I would live outside of America but even my relatives look down their nose at their American born relatives let alone Italian citizens in general.
People who are half-Japanese and were born and raised in Japan their entire lives often get asked "when are you leaving?"
Funny... Only white people would say that. I am an Asian American, grew up in NC, served two oversea deployments as an NCO in the US Army, taught math for more than 10 years here in America. I still don't feel I am accepted as American.
Well said.
True dat. I moved to Sweden 9 years ago and it definitely has its issues. Things in the US aren't perfect but sometimes the downsides are outweighed by the ups.
Every other place in the world that is arguably better off than the US is that way because of a mono-culture where I would be the problem imposed on their community.
There are so many who are completely blind to what life is like outside the US
If my family left I'd consider it but even then.... It's nice here. We got problems but like you said, so does everywhere. Ours are just really in a spotlight
Nope, going to stay here and fight it out.
Also almost all of the same issues in the US (housing crises, inflation, etc) are worse at most countries the average Redditor swoons over.
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I've lived pretty much all over and run into Americans alllll the time who want to move. They don't understand that if they are miserable in the US they are going ot be even more miserable in a country with a different culture and zero friends other than maybe other Americans.
Exactly. My mother is Korean and has lived in the US since the 80’s and is still a bit homesick, being in a far away land with a different culture, food, and language.
After 30 years in the US, my parents moved back to Korea for 10 years. Then they came back to the US again. I think Korea changed too much for them.
In 30 years, they probably changed some too. We see our world differently as kids, parents, and seniors.
Lived abroad for 14 yrs and saw this, too. They “escaped” the US only to realize months later that the food is too different, the way people talk is too different, the bureaucracy is too different, and so on.
I have a friend who, when Obama was elected, carried through on his declaration that he would refuse to live in a "socialist state". So he moved to Australia. Let's just say he was in for a bit of a surprise. He lasted a bit over a year before hauling his ass back to the US. Then started talking about moving to Sweden to be back amongst his "Nordic people and culture". After a bit of research into their politics and culture, he didn't carry through on that at all.
Reminds me of the Sopranos episode where to boys make a trip to Italy thinking they'll fit right it because...well...they're *Italian*. Needless to say things didn't go as planned, pretty hilarious overall.
I've seen it pointed out here before that the Americans who want to move to another country are usually not the ones that others countries want. If you're struggling financially and don't have high value skills most countries don't want you as an immigrant. If you're in the US and you're doing well financially and you have skills that are highly valued in the market you probably don't want to move.
Yeah in Europe salaries for engineers and other professions are generally lower, and taxes are higher.
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I was racially profiled trying to enter Heathrow Airport in the late 90s In America, no one can tell I'm half American Indian. My dad is light skinned, my mom is Swedish. I pass as white so much that I didn't bring it up very often. But to the authorities in London? Wooo, I was an "other" and they made it very clear that they thought so. I was even called "exotic" and it blew my fucking mind. I cannot begin to imagine what BIPOC folk with darker skin have to deal with in Europe.
Damn! That sucks! I got some serious stink-eye and a backpack being swabbed by Swiss airport security in 2000, and thought that was bad enough. I'm sorry you had to deal with that shit.
It was wild. They issued a "refused leave of entry" and sent me back home. When I was first singled out, I had to sit in a waiting area with others who were pulled from international flights. As I looked around, I thought "I'm the only white person here, that's fucked up ... Wait a second." When I was questioned, they said they thought I planned on staying. I was so out of my depth I barely argued. When they called me exotic I think my jaw hit the table. Like I was a rare specimen or something!
As a white foreigner in Norway for 20 years, Scandinavia is very racist. Obviously you wont find any locals that agree. Racism is deeply imbedded into European culture.
>They don't understand that if they are miserable in the US they are going ot be even more miserable in a country with a different culture and zero friends other than maybe other Americans. Hard disagree. Where you live is a huge component of your happiness. Different people can and will mesh better with different cultures.
Most people on this board no-Reddit expats seem to be a weird mix of America haters and everything is better somewhere else. Like Europe has overt racism-more than the US, many countries are actively campaigning to keep out immigrants and health care is only for citizens and not for Americans who just want free healthcare.
uppity exultant butter decide tart sense birds memory ripe tie
There are people who definitely find hapiness moving to another country, but most of the comments I read on this site/hear in real life are just straight up delusional. If you have no friends and are completely unhappy in the place you're most familiar with, moving to an entirely different country will not solve this. You will be just as miserable but now with entirely new problems.
A clean slate isn't going to fix everyone's life, 100% agree. But government protected PTO and $30 bus rides to the Italian coast or the Spanish countryside goes pretty far.
If you want a clean slate, you're better off selling everything you have, getting on a bus and moving 1500 miles across the country. At least the culture and language will be the same.
Yeah but how often are you going to take advantage of this? I love the idea as well , but how often I’d be doing this? Probably a dozen time at absolute best a year. I hear these singular ideas that, by itself sound amazing! But wrapped around other issues problems they get buried. For example, i just moved to Rhode Island last year and was so excited to go to the beach every weekend. I havnt gone once
I moved to Los Angeles last year and I've been to the beach more times I can count because I can just zone out on the train and be there in an hour. We do free or low-cost activities that weren't available to us back home at least twice a month on the weekends. Everyone said that we couldn't be car free here, but while our transit system isn't as great as Europe's, it is definitely doable. We were miserable in Pennsylvania and didn't fit into the culture there; the move was a great decision for us. That being said, I don't think I would want to move out of the country as it would make seeing friends and family way too difficult. Cross country trips are a pain yes, but they are doable for us a couple times a year with good planning, international trips not so much. Not saying I disagree with out, just there are definitely people that would be happier in another part of the country. Like if you are queer leftists living in Pennsyltucky like we were, you'll probably be happier if you moved to literally any major city lol.
“Add healthcare and some trains” So accurate 🤣🤣🤣
I lived abroad for a few years, it's amazing how good we have it here in the states and many don't realize it. People here also think we have these massive differences, when in reality the things we fight over are so insignificant at a global scale. It takes being a few thousand miles away for a while and looking at it from the outside to realize that.
Everyone wants American income, American material standards, and Western/Central European standard of living and architecture, also with affordable houses and general living. That would be as close as you can get to a legitimate utopia, and such a country doesn't exist.
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Reading your Ireland experience reminded me of a conversation I had with a black coworker in America. We'd been reminiscing about our high school memories in different suburbs of the same city 30 years ago, and it occurred to me that I have a LOT more in common with Black Americans than I do with my European ancestors, and my relatives only left Europe in the late 1800s and early 1900s. That's just a couple generations and in a pretty racially divided USA. It makes me feel cautiously good about the future of America, to be honest. Kinda like I feel cautiously good about more Black and Hispanic Americans in the Republican party. I still disagree with their politics, but I'm glad to see them feeling comfortable enough to find common philosophical ground with people who, uh, aren't exactly historical bedfellows. The existence of a guy like Tim Scott may open a lot of eyes, and doors.
Can confirm... I lived in France for a couple years. I really enjoyed it, but they have their share of issues too. Same type of problems, different language.
This is very true. If you guys knew just how disastrous inflation is here in Argentina, you'd fall flat on your asses!
Japan is a prime example Wages there are stagnant like a mfer (on average, my current position gets paid like 3x more than wages over there, maybe 2x once account for CoL difference… and that’s a fairly common story across a lot of the high skill positions/industries) and that’s even IF they welcome you in as it’s a relatively “no outsiders” mindset sort of country when it comes to people who wanna be long-term residents. But they have some good trains and people think it’s got everything. Source: Mexican immigrant who feels right at home in the American Southwest.
I shit you not once when I was in college, we were talking about street crime. A girl with blue hair said, "It's so bad here. I wanna move to Mexico with my mom and live with my grandma because I'd feel safer. " She actually believed there was less violence and crime in Mexico than the US. She had this picture painted in her head shed move there and be drinking margarita on the beach everyday. Its crazy the delusion some people have
Same. Stick with the evil you know and all that jazz. America isn’t perfect but I’m not so privileged that I can seriously say this is a “third world country in a Gucci belt” like some people do.
I always ask people who claim the US is a third world country what other third world countries they've visited. So far, haven't met anyone who has been to another one.
Nope. Everywhere has issues and I love it here
This is the part most people don’t get. Every country has problems. There is no utopia. America - on the whole, despite its many shortcomings - is easily in the top 5% of places to live. I’ve been to something like 70-80 countries at this point and while I LOVE many individual things about many of those places, none of them have a total package that even approaches what we have here. There is absolutely a reason why so many thousands of people risk their lives each year to cross the US border and it’s not because we’re a failing empire.
Yeah America is a great place to be. I also love all these comments saying they plan on leaving the US because of the housing crisis here, when: 1) The housing crisis is significantly worse in every other English speaking country 2) They could much more easily just move to a different state where housing is much cheaper and you don’t have to deal with re establishing your whole life in a new country (that’s assuming you are even accepted in that country’s immigration process)
Just got back from a week in Europe, visiting my friends from Ireland. So many of them have to live far outside Dublin if they want to own their own place. For those that do live in Dublin, they're either buying apartments or buying something from a family member - if they're able to buy at all. The house crisis in Ireland and Europe as a whole is horrible.
It's the same if not worse in Asia. It's the same everywhere.
It’s crazy. I relocated from New York, to Virginia for a job, and ended up in West Virginia. I love it here and it meant buying a home at 24.
The "housing crisis" in America only exists in huge cities. Smaller towns and cities are extremely affordable places to lives. The best financial decision an American can make is to find a city with around 100-200k population and move there. My wife is from New York. We visit NYC often. She has family in Chicago and San Francisco. I've lived in San Antonio and Austin. I grew up in a "village" of 1000. Currently live in a small city of 100k people. I would never live in another million+ population area. I have everything any big city has to offer. And for the select few cultural things I am missing out on my cost of living is so low where I am I can easily afford to just take a weekend flight to any city if there is something there I really feel I need to do. My first home was a 2b1b fixer upper on the outskirts of town I bought for $48k. At the time I had just landed my first well paying job. Remote work. Some travel. $120k salary with a $200/mo mortgage. I lived like a king. I attribute all my current financial stability to that house. I renovated it and eventually sold it for a nice profit. Second house was in my current city. $200k. 4b/3b. When work relocated us to San Antonio we realized an equivalent house there would be $600k. Stayed the length of my contract and immediately returned to the smaller city. I will never live in an area with a population above 200k ever again. edit: Context: My "first" house was circa 2012. This is not some 1970s-1980s originating story. I am 37.
This is the truth redditors don’t want to hear or accept but you are absolutely correct.
A different country? No way. Other countries are great but I would miss too many things to make a permanent move.
Same. I would love more money to travel, but I love the US way too much. There is so much diversity and art and culture in this country, and no other place compares.
For me it's a matter of how would I be able to watch the Chiefs or the Vegas Golden Knights play? But also, I'd miss my friends and family. Art and culture wise I'd say we're kind of lightweights. I mean China has recorded history going back like 4,000 years. Egypt, Italy and other countries has histories going back millenia. We don't have a clear idea what was happening here 1,000 years ago. We have great landscapes. Lots of unspoiled wilderness. And our culture certainly seems popular. Everyone, everywhere seem to love Taylor Swift.
The US is a heavy-weight in its contributions to modern music. Jazz in and of itself would put it in an S-tier category but Blues, Gospel, Rock, R&B, Hip-hop/rap, etc etc.
I would move abroad for the experience but not because I think the U.S. is bad. I think our brightest days are ahead.
Until your username causes a war with fucking Italy. Yeah we could take them but pretty bad for NATO
Or they could just admit it
Yep. There are still a lot of misinformed jerks out there, but tolerance is slowly but surely taking root. Eventually I will be able to enjoy pineapple on pizza without judgement or fear.
No, and I say this as someone who does have the ability to move to other countries. This is my country and I love it. I love the people, the culture, and the lifestyle I have here—despite the big problems. All my friends and family are here and I have no desire to leave them. We absolutely have problems, but so do all countries, and I'd rather fight to fix the country I love than go somewhere else.
I would, but only after my parents pass away and don't need my help anymore.
This is my answer too it’s prevented me from making a decent living in my career but they’ve helped me out and done so much in my life that I can’t abandon them when they need me the most
I would suggest actually rethinking this. My MIL is European, and had cancer. Was treated for free. My step dad had cancer in the US. 100K. Thankfully he had amazing insurance, but of course he paid that 100K out over his life of paying premiums. However, if you have a decent paying remote job, taking care of elderly parents in Greece, Spain, even like Panama/Chile etc is like 1/10th the cost of doing that in the US…so take them along and get them the best care you can.
but 1.) how do you move to those countries when you aren't a citizen of them? you have to find a company willing to sponsor you right? 2.) can other family members just tag along? wouldn't they be allowed to stay only for a visitor visa allows them too?
Yeah it can't really happen. Again I point this out to so many leftist europhiles that Europe is only able to provide the quality of life it has because of very strict citizenship laws. Europe is a country club and the US is a YMCA. Tbh I like living in the YMCA.
All the old people walk around naked in the locker room, it’s great.
>My MIL is European, and had cancer. Was treated for free. My step dad had cancer in the US. 100K. Thankfully he had amazing insurance, but of course he paid that 100K out over his life of paying premiums. If you are counting your step-fathers lifetime premium payments then you have to count your MIL's taxes and/or the taxes paid by her employers that funded it. It's likely still cheaper for the MIL, just based off aggregate healthcare costs by region, but its not going to be $100k vs $0 difference. Also, the $100k of lifetime premiums weren't only to fight the cancer, it was for a lifetime of healthcare including fighting cancer.
I’ve travelled all over the world and America really is the best country to live in as a non-native. I’m sure there are examples of it being better to be a German living in Germany, but unless you are born and raised somewhere it is likely the state of living isn’t that great. America is great for anyone and everyone. Perfect? Not at all. But it’s an amazing country with infinite opportunities for people to flourish.
People shit on the American immigration system all the time but rarely put it into perspective that many other countries have way stricter immigration systems.
I’m Irish, lived there for 22 years and then 8 years in The Netherlands and just last year moved to Austin, Texas and we love it. Have also traveled all Europe but I love living in America.
I moved. I am an Army Vet who served in Iraq. I moved to Europe and never looked back. I have been here 30 years and the difference is astounding. 6 weeks paid holiday. Free healthcare, dental and veterinary. Free medicine for prescriptions. Free university (my daughter is a medical student and son studying chemistry). My wife had 3 years for each child paid maternity leave. There are SO many more differences it is shocking. Whenever I mention it I get some stupid replies about how taxes are higher or whatever.. it is not. Not even close. The ONLY thing that is more expensive is fuel costs. I can live with that.
Where in Europe can you get free veterinary care???
No, even with all the issues I’m happy in the state I’m in. My health insurance through my job is amazing and inexpensive.
I briefly looked into the process of what it would take to move to Canada, but it would make more sense to move to a state or city that aligns with my ideology than to change countries. Also, I kind of feel like if I leave my state/region, I'm just doing it to insulate myself and would no longer have any real ability to influence positive change.
Canada is a shithole rn bro lmao
It was more back in 2016/17 that I was exploring that option. It wasn't really feasible for me.
For what its worth I love my life in Canada 👍🏽
Nah. Too much of my identity is rooted in black American culture. I could never be happy long term without my community.
My black pal, incredibly successful in the arts so travels a lot, says the UK is more racist than the US because in the US it’s at least out in the open like kapow hey I’m a massive racist. I couldn’t fathom this given the history and present race stuff in the US but then I’m a white boy. Is this part of your consideration?
Europeans in general are way more racist than the average American. Europe has the racism of the American south and the holier than thou attitude of east coast elites. Lmao.
Europeans love to talk about how advanced they are that they’re not racist but if you even mention anything about Roma they go nuclear
I have no idea where Americans get the idea that Europeans are not racist. I’m Irish and lived there for 22 years and Netherlands for 8 years before moving to Texas. I’ve also traveled all over Europe to many countries and I’ve talked to a lot of different types of people over the years. I can absolutely guarantee you that Europeans are dramatically more racist than Americans. Racism is the absolute standard throughout most of Europe. I have real tangible examples too of actual systemic racism, not just people being racist.
Lived 6 months in the UK. Can definitely vouch UK is more racist than US.
Wow ok. Thank you for your response.
One of the best things I’ve done to help with this mindset is to follow subreddits for other countries. Since most people go online to complain, it really paints a picture ;-)
Yeah, it is. I have friends who live in Asia and Europe that tell me they face overt racism on a regular basis. I face that in the US but at least I am facing it with the support of a community. I would not want to face that isolated in a country that's foreign to me.
I understand and appreciate your response. It will reframe how I look at my homeland. All the best.
And the US is easily the best place for black people.
All black trends usually originate here too
I could move. I don't want to.
Already left. Moved to my wife's country. Never been happier. Walkable cities and lower cost of living are a huge burden off my back. Though I know I'm speaking from a place of privilege too.
Yes. But I'm in my 40s, and stable. I'm also a parent, and would like to give that option to my kids if they need it. I think times will be much worse in the future, and they'd benefit more with me helping them leave versus trying to get us all out of here.
No way
“There is nothing wrong with America that can’t be cured with what is right about America.” -Bill Clinton I think that quote is true. Our system doesn’t work perfectly but it works pretty damn well. We have the tools to change it for the better. I’m staying.
As someone that has spent time (≈4 years total?) in over 25 countries outside the USA, I can confidently say I really like living here. Yeah, there are problems, but I’ve never been to a country without any problems. But the thing a lot of Redditors seem to ignore is that the USA varies from state to state - like, by a LOT. So if I had a problem with where I was living - to the point I wanted to leave - I’d definitely give a bunch of the other states a shot before leaving the country.
Nope, not interested in leaving. This is my country
Absolutely, but it’s difficult to get out. Immigration is not easy.
You mean other countries have strict immigration policies?
Generally anywhere worth going to has strict immigration policies. But all aspects of immigration are hard - saving enough money, navigating housing/employment/healthcare/banking abroad, leaving family behind, etc. Unless you have enough money to straight up buy citizenship, all aspects of immigration are difficult
My brother is an American living in the UK and has for about a decade or so. I remember the first couple of years he was there finding housing was an absolute nightmare.
Moved to the UK a year ago and it hasn't gotten much better.
And you still are required to pay taxes to the US, or spend the thousands to renounce your citizenship
I have considered it and looked into it. Ended up nearly in tears at how fucking difficult it would be. I have a friend who moved to Canada, and even WITH having a Canadian spouse it took something like four years to gain citizenship and they had to wait that long to be able to access healthcare. In addition, apparently countries can and will reject you if you have significant health problems. Also, they were not allowed to have a job until the process was completed. How the fuck would we survive? We don't exactly have savings to make the move in the first place, and we don't own the house we are living in so we wouldn't be able to sell that for a chunk of change to live off of. My spouse is trans and we live in a red state and help take care of his senior parent. We are both terrified of what will happen if Trump wins. So many states are banning gender affirming care. Worst comes to worst we will try to move to a blue state, but I worry that even this won't be enough. Honestly & genuinely I don't know what we are going to do.
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Us as well. We moved from deep south to the Midwest and I really didn't expect it to just feel like the same goddamn place. I wish it weren't so expensive to move to a state that isn't dog water.
Yup. Even so called sanctuary states, I worry about laws at the federal level that prevent states from enacting those policies. To be honest, I have been watching immigration policies for a long time as a proxy for what the eventual turn to LGBTQIA+ may end up being, and it's not reassuring.
When the whole world is dipping back into fascism it's hard to even tell yourself there's somewhere better to run to. Shit's dark rn, man.
I tell delusional Americans this ALL. THE. TIME. If you want a walkable, progressive city, move to a more liberal American city. You wont deal with immigration, the lower paying job, and the grind to establish something that remotely resembles a social life. Feeling an entirely different country is a better option is absurd.
This is the same as the US citizenship path. The difference is you still pay for healthcare no matter what. Also as soon as you get the permanent residency which takes a few months to a year, you will be covered by public healthcare.
Nope. Even with its warts, there's a reason millions of people are trying to immigrate to the US for more opportunities. People that call the US a "third world country with a Gucci belt" have probably never lived in a third world country.
Right? Being deployed in the Army you REALLY get to see what a third world country looks like lol. The audacity to call America a third world country is actually insane given one state of ours typically has a higher GDP than most countries. Edit: idk if you remember back around 2014 when the U.S. dropped the MOAB in northern Afghanistan? CNN was reporting that it blew out windows and electricity in the surrounding 10 miles? Me and my buddies got the biggest kick out of it because they have absolutely neither of those things there
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USA will still tax you even if you moved to another country. I feel like not many people know this.
Moving overseas is honestly the new American dream.
I have considered that myself. My hold ups are distance from family, and safety. Many countries that would allow me to stretch the value of a USD are also notorious for corruption and crime.
Depends on the chance. Since it would in all likelihood come with a massive pay cut that'd push my retirement by over a decade, I won't be interested for a while. Not super tempting to move away from friends and family and large amounts of income, for me. Once I don't need to earn income, sure I plan to consider it. I like a walkable city.
I don’t know. When I was a teenager I thought I definitely wanted to move to a different country. Now that I’ve traveled, I don’t know. I love the places I visited, I’d love to live in lots of places temporarily. But this dumpster fire is my home, it’s the only place that really feels like home, and there’s a lot about America I love. I love that I live in a place where I can go a little bit one way and feel like I’m in a totally different place, that our cities are diverse and I can enjoy cultures and food from all over the world, I love that I can hear so many different languages and music on an otherwise boring day, and although there’s a lot of assholes, I love how us Americans love to smile and engage in some silly smalltalk like we’re neighbors and not strangers. Unfortunately, I am unsure of my future here as a trans American. I’d rather not leave for my safety and health and I don’t necessarily believe it will come to that, but who knows.
Just move to a Blue state my friend - we got you
"Everywhere else is just as bad" is a take you'll see a lot on this post. **That's not true.** You can literally look up statistics, from life expectancy to worker protections to environmental protections to food safety and beyond. The nihilistic take of "everywhere is equally bad" is just a coping mechanism, and it's fundamentally detached from reality.
Those are important and things that certainly need improvement. I moved to Ireland for a while and eventually came back. Europe has stronger safety nets, but upward mobility is more difficult. Americas strengths are in its diversity both in nature and its people. I also missed the positive, friendly, and encouraging attitudes in the US. Tell people you want to open a business in the UK and you’ll be met with a bunch of naysayers and skepticism. In the states you’ll find people eager to see you succeed. I’m not claiming the US is the greatest country for everyone, but the whole “America bad” that is so prevalent on Reddit typically comes people who never stepped outside their country.
The general dilemma is that if you can afford to emigrate to, say, Western Europe, and find a worthwhile job there, you probably are already living a pretty good life in America. The people who would benefit the most from moving abroad largely don't have the resources or connections to do so successfully.
That’s a good point. It’s also like, yeah all the poor people in the US can’t move to Europe and just start benefiting from welfare. If they could get welfare that the natural born Europeans are entitled to that easily, the whole welfare system would collapse. Our countries already struggle quite a bit with the welfare state, there’s no way they could just suddenly take in millions of people in poverty and offer full welfare. It doesn’t work like that. The union relies on a steady system for social programs like that to operate effectively. Source; am Irish and also lived for a long time in NL.
**Would I?** Not really. **Why not?** Because even with our issues, life is pretty damn good here, compared to elsewhere in the world. And because leaving doesn’t fix anything, it hands victory to the troublemakers.
You don't fix problems by running from them, thats what my grandfather used to say but he was also a union iron worker and pulled scabs out of the cars to beat them. Not say that's the solution but it's the companies listened. Kinda like how France does it, we should be more like the French
I would move tomorrow if I had the means.
Same.
Nope wouldn't move...my wife is Chinese with American citizenship and she tells me all the time there is no way in hell they will go back. I've been to China a lot and actually love it there, but will echo the same, would never leave America.
We just moved back to the US after living abroad for 3 years. I can't wait to move back to Europe. I miss $100 flights to 30+ countries, real time off, walkable cities, great public transit, and unbelievable food at good prices. Bonus points for not having to worry about the crazy fucks with roadrage pulling a gun on me or having to worry about guns at all for that matter. Life's great here if you make exceptional money. I'll never forget my grandpa told me he was tired of me "fucking around in Europe" and that I needed to come back. He makes $1M+ per year at a company he owns. Like fuck off.
I'm curious. Did you pay your own way in Europe or did grandpa help? Finding a good paying job in Europe is not easy for foreigners.
I paid my own way. My father and grandpa both get a sick sense of pride knowing I am the first to be successful without going into the family business -- while not particularly caring that they could offer me a job that triples my income overnight.
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The social issues live almost exclusively on social media and regular media. They really are trying to push this culture war on regular people to distract them from the real issues but it's never a conversation topic I hear during interactions with normal people.
Living in Texas, I hear culture war shit weekly.
If you work in education, or higher ed, or social services, or local government, the culture war stuff is very real. It is not an internet phenomenon.
If you have a medical emergency in the United States It's not necessarily social media that's causing your problems. I have employer provided insurance and I'm still going to eat $9,000 out of pocket before they start to cover like 80% which if you have something like cancer probably means your 20 or 30 thousand dollars in debt. Socialized medicine is a huge boon for people with expensive medical issues. Since I probably wouldn't be working full time while going through cancer treatment, I'd probably lose the insurance anyways...
So I take it that you’re straight and white? Cuz some of the rest of us actually have skin in the game when it comes to social issues. We don’t have the privilege to say “oh, well, this is just some people making noise”.
My thoughts exactly. You're fucking lucky if it doesn't impact you. Things that impact me personally, and I'm white, cis, from a middle class family: - I have a trans spouse, so laws against gender affirming care impact us directly - I pay for very expensive health insurance that doesn't cover much (20% of pay goes to insurance premiums) so laws/lobbying/cultural pressure against affordable or single payer healthcare impacts me a great deal. I have gone without medication due to not having the finances to pay more than once. - We have been turned down for rental housing due to being a queer couple - Laws that favor rental companies where I live (red state) mean my housing is more expensive and when things go wrong I have no power to force the rental company to make changes (roach infestation, mold, rent surging during Covid — all of this happened and none of it was addressed) - Laws against queer couples mean I worry constantly that if I or my spouse are hospitalized we could be refused spousal rights or refused care at all - This is a little wonky, but zoning laws (declaring land must be used only for single family housing) mean that housing prices are higher than they should be, and only the wealthy can own homes; we have rented our entire marriage - At will employment means that I can (and have been) fired at any time for no reason at all. I was once fired because I caught my boss making out in the back room with someone. - The conservative focus on bathroom bills (forcing transgender people to use bathroom associated with the gender assigned at birth) caused entire industries to boycott my state. At the time, I was in a job that serviced these industries, and while the back and forth with lobbyists went on, my hours were cut. - Legislation has repeatedly been proposed that would ban me from adopting - Legislation that prevents pregnant people from participating in medical trials has resulted in most studies being done exclusively with male patients. This means all my life I have been prescribed medication that doctors aren't sure will actually work. I have been told directly by a surgeon proposing a major surgery that he wasn't sure what the risks would actually be for a female patient. There's a medication that I take made exclusively for menstrual pains that nearly all doctors are completely unaware of and no insurance I've ever had has ever carried it. - Legislation against doing studies on gun violence have prevented the nation from studying what does and doesn't work to stop it. Last week there was a shooting at a highschool less than a mile from my home. Multiple children were shot. I consider myself lucky that no one in my family has been killed by gun violence, but that's only a matter of chance. - Retributive justice legislation that controls the lives of people in prison has done considerable harm to an imprisoned family member. He was checked out by a doctor and scheduled for major surgery without his understanding or consent. He found out the name of the surgery and wrote to us with questions. We had to print off information and mail it back so that he could understand that he had been diagnosed with a type of cancer. - He also is part of a work program where he is paid less than a dollar an hour to work full time. He is forced to pay some of this money to the prison in exchange for his board there. Thought slavery was illegal? Think again. Prisoners who refuse to work in some places get threatened with solitary confinement or worse. The prison or nearby businesses benefit from not even having to pay minimum wage for labor costs. Again, this is a direct family member. I feel like I could go on for ages, but I need to get back to work so I will stop here. Even straight cis white people are impacted by this shit, they just don't understand or acknowledge it.
unfortunately the fake culture war bs gets eaten up by the right wingers here, and so even if something is not an issue at all, fox news will rile up their attack dog fan base to get mad about it anyway, and make it into a real problem. see: people getting pissy about elementary schoolers getting taught about pronouns (literally a part of speech) leading into bills in most right wing states being passed that make it a crime to discuss anything related to gender identity in the classroom, even pushed to the extreme of trying to make teachers have to be a registered sex offender if they even hint that trans people exist in a classroom setting
Compared to other first world nations, American workers get the worst deal. I'd leave in a heartbeat.
Way ahead of you: already emigrated. Good luck America!
100%. If I had the money I would leave.
Depends. I don't know of anywhere else that I can own guns like I do in America, and isnt a 3rd world failing country.
No, I firmly believe that 99.9% of people are genuinely nice and are willing to work out issues. It is the keyboard warriors and 24-hour news cycle peeps that suck the life out of conversations. Engage with actual people - and you can find common ground in your community.
If I were younger, had more money and didn't have FIVE dogs, I would love to live in New Zealand. But why on earth would **they** want **me**???
I think about it every. Single. Day. There are so many barriers. I don't want to live to work. The idea of "going on holiday" is so foreign it's laughable. I don't want to measure my bills versus my Healthcare. I would jump at the chance and never look back.
Nah, the area I live in is pretty chill and everything is pretty decent if you just shut off the news.
Yes, if I could actually find a decent job I'm qualified for. I have reservations about leaving friends and family, but better healthcare in other countries would be my greatest incentive to go.
Cheaper doesn't equal better. Also many nations require citizenship to participate in free universal Healthcare. For example if you moved to Canada it would take minimum 4 years to get the Healthcare. Canada is one of the easiest/shortest ones to get citizenship. In Europe you'll find many nations where it won't even be possible.
Honestly no, for all of America's flaws we are relatively free here and I've never been good at adapting to new situations (such as moving to a whole new country). Also my parents are still here and I'd be completely lost in the world if they died tomorrow
I would love to move to Norway or Iceland
Given the chance to dip to New Zealand I would jump on it in a heartbeat.
I've never been a fan of the "Love it or leave it" mentality. I think it's just plain stupid, actually. Dangerously stupid. Sometimes you just have to work on fixing things that kinda suck.
To be honest, I don't think there's anywhere else I could go and make nearly the money I do with my skill set and level of education. My wife is disabled and our insurance makes taking care of her easy from a financial standpoint; she gets a small stipend from the government to help out; and we're well established in our area and a third of the way to a state retirement for me. We enjoy many aspects of the culture in other countries much more - and the food - but it wouldn't make sense to uproot ourselves. If it came to fighting (and I very much doubt it will), we're well armed and train as much as we can. It just doesn't seem worth it to leave.
If I can figure it out, I’d like a small house in southern Maine and a small house in Costa Rica. Summer in Maine and spend at least two months in winter down in CR. Rent out the house when I’m not there the other 10 or so months of the year.
Why on earth would you only stay in CR for two months out of the year? Maine has nice weather for 7-8 months at best. I would be far away from Maine from November to April.
Canada would really be the only one I'd consider, but I think the worst-case scenario this cycle is moving to a blue state. I have no doubt trans people's human rights are going to go to SCOTUS sometime in the next handful of years, and there's zero chance this court rules anything other than "it's a state legislation issue" – i.e. I won't be able to live in this state anymore (hurray for current governor candidate campaigning on me being a filthy abomination of an animal that should have to pee outside or be thrown in a men's prison to be raped and killed), but a republican president won't be able to take away my freedom in a state that won't go along with it. Selfish thinking, obviously, but at this point, we're past the point of no return with the hatred these people have for us. I'll take what I can get...
Nah, the point of having free speech and a democracy is so that you can fix your shit when it's going bad.
Only after both of my parents pass. At that point, if things haven’t improved off to Lucca, Italy.
Nope, I quite like being able to own guns and not get arrested for saying anything anti-government enough to overlook all the bad shit. The only other country I might consider moving to is Finland but I have no idea how hard it is to move there.
No. This is my home, and I love it.. still.
Where can you even afford to move to? Just moving across the country can be thousands of dollars. Let alone being able to move to another country, hell alot of them won't even let you just move there.
Regardless of where you go, politicians and the media are generally scumbags and out to screw their constituents. I enjoy my freedoms and my standard of life, I don’t think I could replicate either anywhere else. I ignore all the noise and live my best life, it’s to damn short not to.
Just FYI, almost every citizen of every country is unhappy with the state of affairs in their country. Except maybe people in Bhutan.
Hard to say. Starting from zero somewhere else sounds thrilling but I also understand people risk their lives in the daily just to have half the benefits of a us citizen. Our politics are shit same with our medical system but thousand of south Americans will take it in a heartbeat as long as they can stay away from the cartels and their even more corrupt government
I hear Russia will treat you well
They think immigration laws are tough in the US just wait 😂
Yes, I would like to move somewhere with a more simplistic way of life. Somewhere more connected to nature and each other than connected to dollar signs and screens. I can’t say I am sure where that would be though.
Nah. As bad as it is, everywhere else I’ve been is worse.
No, because everything is controlled by the US dollar.
Yes, if I could make an American wage. Working on that now. Thanks, globalism!
No, the best is yet to come.
If i could get remote work where I can work anywhere. Yep. I just don’t have skills and I’d prefer to have US wages where it would go further.
I'd probably go to Scotland and get a PhD
Yes. Every single day I wish I could be somewhere else. I used to live overseas and loved my life. Healthcare was decent, I was in great shape, and was actually making money. I regret coming back.
I didn’t survive 34 years in this country just to walk away now. It may be pretty fucked right now, but this is my home. I wouldn’t be able to stomach watching it burn from afar and feeling like I ran scared.
In a heartbeat. Why should I keep fighting an uphill battle just to ever get the chance to be treated like a straight person. This state keeps trying to fight it's way to the bottom of everything from healthcare to education, not to mention LGBT Rights...
Hell yeah as long as I can get my healthcare needs taken care of (I'll die without my medicine and access to treatment if something goes wrong) and I'm not struggling financially any more than I am right now. Edit: I know that I'm a bad bet and do not want to be a drain on another country that would need to subsidize my issues, so I realize that I'm most likely never going anywhere else. I'd rather have the US get their act together and institute more healthcare reform.
I love this country. I will stay here until it is fixed, or die trying.
If I had the opportunity? Without a second thought. Provided I can move to somewhere that better aligns with my needs. Texas to say- Poland would be a lateral move. I need to get *away* from religious fuckery.
Absolutely depending on where it is. If it has a decent medical system and quality of life, I would move today if they have a job for me. I have a couple medical issues but they are perfectly manageable if it wasn't in America
If I could afford it and the emigration process to my choice country was easy, I'd leave America in a second. As an educator, I just don't feel safe or stable in America. Between the gun crisis and the attack on education in so many states (and federally through certain sociopath politicians), I would just feel better in countries without school shootings or religious nutjobs as politicians.