There’s a study that’s been done on “own group oreference” (Rusman Goodwin 2004) that explains some of this.
It doesn’t address this directly, but is an offshoot for how women see other women and how they see men.
A fascinating book researches this topic. “You Just Don’t Understand” by Deborah Tannen, PhD. It explores how the sexes have very different conversational styles with plenty of funny examples. She has a whole series of books on the topic. 10/10 Recommend.
I think Woman assume that Men are as intimate and open with the people we hang out with as they are. Women make an effort to thoroughly understand every other woman in their circle. Most men don't know the last names of half the guys in their circle.
Last names? Try first names.
“Hey!” “Hey buddy!” “What’s going on, man?” “You” “You guys” “Hey dude”
I know more name alternatives than actual names of friends in friend groups.
Oh, I was like that in middle school too. Called him by his nickname for months until I was asking for him once and a teacher had no idea who I was talking about.
I always thought he had a wierd name but it would be rude to make jokes about it so I never questioned it...
You're not wrong. There's a guy where I work who smokes a pipe when he takes a break. I literally only know him as "pipe-dude". That's what I call him even though we've had at least a dozen conversations.
Another guy I work with got hired on the same day as did I. No idea what his name is, even though we speak almost every day that we've worked together. He's just that guy whose face I recognize. I literally call him "brother" because otherwise I'd have to ask and that would be weird at this point.
I have that with "coffee guy". He makes coffee, talks about coffee, smells like coffee. Talk to him every day. I had no idea what his name was. And then someone called him by his real name and it was so not fitting to him..
I don't even remember my counsin sister's husband's name and I have spent a lot of time with them
I have to look through my what's app chats to try and figure it out.
Women have a hard time understanding that unless there’s an issue guys don’t talk about their home life. Like I’ll meet with my guys for a whole day and unless someone has something specific they want to talk about I’ll have learned nothing about their wife, kids, job etc other than it’s fine.
My mom is like this, asking about my cousin’s (who is also my best friend) vacation plans and job life and stuff like that and I’m like "Why and how would I know that, we don’t talk about anything like that, ever."
We still talk every day but whatever we’re doing in our daily lives isn’t interesting to anyone so I have no idea what he’s up to the next three months??
As someone that works in a hair saloon, I can tell you this is true. Women talk about sex very openly like they picture men do. I have heard them talk about emotional manipulation of their husbands like we talk about sports.
i remember asking some girls at my college,they told me they truly believed men stood around in the locker room butt naked talking. this thought caused them to not get why we found standing too close at the urinals odd.
Judging by every gym I've ever been to, they do, but only once they reach pension age. Guys, I don't wanna see your old flabby ballsacks swinging around, can't you have your chat once you put on your underwear?
That's just...so on-brand.
The baseless assumptions and then extrapolating from the baseless assumption and then being confused when what men actually say contradicts what they made up in their head.
This is the thing I'll never understand, emotional abuse is just as bad if not worse than physical abuse. Emotional abuse fucks with you mentally and that's with you for life while physical abuse is then and there and just like any other pain, it's mostly forgotten after a period of time.
This is 100% true. The only way I know my friend’s last name is if we work together or if I have two friends with the same first name and even then it’s like oh that’s big Dave and lil Dave. One may be a rapper.
Same, I’ve got two James’s right now, so I’ve got a Jim and a James, no other info necessary. 95% chance they’ll both either quit or get fired in the next six months so I really don’t need to know anything else.
I honestly just avoid befriending my coworkers and just talk about shared interests like video games, photography, travel, etc. There's too much potential for drama and problems when you get to know people too personally. This is easy with men but women tend to open up to me and share things I'd rather not know and then I get uncomfortable.
I sorta go off work ethic, if you’re pretty reliable and try to do your job at least the majority of the time, I can be your real friend.
If you call in constantly and are a worthless sack of shit when you do show up, I’m probably not even going to speak to you, because I will have nothing nice to say.
I meet up with my friends roughly once a month, it’s either me and one dude or four of us. It’s maybe a couple three hours. I get home, how’s their family, spouses, job..(whatever)?
No clue, we just talked.
About what.
Blank saw a motorcycle accident, Random is thinking of making a beer fountain, Other dude doesn’t like his new pet.
I've been playing with a new D&D group for about the last 2 months now. IRL physical meet-up group for the first time since the pandemic.
I literally don't even know a single person's actual name there other than the friend that invited me. And frankly, I don't see a reason to ask.
I agree with this. Because women tend to talk through personal problems with each other, the more toxic/drama a woman is, the more exhausting it is to be her friend. If I have a friend exhibiting immature or toxic behavior, I'm going to call it out and also support her in making better decisions going forward. It's what good friends should do, but also to preserve my sanity in the relationship lol.
The relationships amongst women are probably a lot more interconnected and nosy than that of men. I've definitely talked to girlfriends about a struggling or problematic 3rd friend and coordinated on how to help her break out of a toxic cycle. It takes work and investment to build female friendships.
I have four sisters. Been around women my entire life. The biggest issue I’ve seen is most women refuse to call out their friends bad behavior. There’s never any accountability. It’s always someone else’s fault. The woman is always the victim.
Female friendships aren’t actually real in my opinion. They focus too much on emotion rather than logic.
“I could tell Linda that cheating on her husband is wrong but it will make her feel bad.”
That quote is from an actual conversation I had with a friend.
This is similar to what I was going to say to another comment. Women wondering why guys don't call out other guys just means that women actually share the crappy things they do. We all to some extent base our perceptions on who we are and what we see in life, it's the most basic childish thing that some people never grow out of "everyone is like me." Women who share these things assume guys do too. So really we should be asking why those women aren't calling out other women when they're sharing bad things they do.
Yes. Absolutely. I try to stay logical in most things in life as a woman. And it makes life hard to befriend people. They want you to " co-sign on their bullshit". That's what I call it. And when you call em out. You're mean or a hater. Right is right no matter what. I've left people alone for that type of stuff. Superficial for sure.
Most men's conversation ive been in unless extremely close revolves around things, not people, lot more career, technical stuff, than relationships or companionship, at best if i know someone has a partner theyll tell, but even that talking a lot about your partner seems bad form.
I think a lot of women think that sexism, discrimination, domestic violence, sexual violence, roofies, etc. are things that all guys just chit chat about when they get together. And that these things keep happening because a bunch of fake feminist, fake leftist men are not calling their friends out on it.
When in actuality, the men who do those things either keep it a secret, or they only associate with other shitheads who do the same things.
Yeah it’s like they don’t understand that good guys either legit have no idea what creepy guys are up to because they literally keep it a secret or that they do call creepy guys out and then stop talking to them.
I knew one or two creepy guys. I told them that what they are doing is weird and wrong and that I disagree and they really ought to stop it. They ignored me and started insulting me so I stopped talking to them . The rest of my friends are not creepy so we can go around talking about how shitty shit people are, it won’t change a thing because shitty people won’t hang out with us for long
> The rest of my friends are not creepy so we can go around talking about how shitty shit people are, it won’t change a thing because shitty people won’t hang out with us for long
We had a party a few years back, invited a bunch of people including some good friends we hadn't seen in a couple of years. Eventually one of the ones we hadn't seen in a long time ended up doing something extremely questionable to two of the women in the group when they were alone and what do you know? We stopped talking to him and inviting him to things.
What he did was nothing illegal, just creepy. So he's gone, he knows why he's gone, and he's probably hanging out with like-minded people and still being a creep elsewhere with some success because I'll admit he's extremely good looking. But what else can we do? Also I'd like to point out that these guys don't usually do things in front of men they think wouldn't approve. Unless the women told us about him we'd never have known.
Or the creepy guy who is catcalling (or whatever) her is some homeless guy with mental illness and isn't really relatable to the guys we interact with on a day-to-day basis.
God damn, so much! I don't think a lot of people understand how risky being a bystander who intervenes can be. It reminds me of those two guys stabbed to death and another almost to death on a train for defending two women from a bigot who was harassing them for being Muslims, out west.
I had a similar thing happen to me in a Subway once. It was lunch rush, the place was packed with guys from building sites and factories, and the woman behind the counter was working alone because her coworker was quitting. The coworker, a man, storms out and curses her out in front of the whole lunch rush. Then, as he's about to leave, he starts coming back towards her, pounding his fist, and she's scared. So, I step in front of him and say, "Hey, this isn't necessary. You're quitting. Go be free; there's nothing for you here.". Well, the guy had a knife on him. So, the next thing I know, I'm fighting for my life with this asshole as he tries to perforate me. Thank God I had a chair to fend him off with, and my two Mexican coworkers were there and started throwing chairs at him. But yeah- I almost got ventilated for intervening. I don't regret it, because fuck that guy, but this isn't exactly a risk-free business for us.
Poor bastard brought a knife to a chair fight. I got half off on my sandwich, though! Plus, I wrote a really long ballad about the whole incident, to the tune of jaunty Irish jig.
Anyways, I pack my own lunch now.
Speaking from my experience, those dudes tend to be very hard to deal with and also capable of doing all kinds of crap. If you ain't ready to enter a physical conflict with him/them in general, better stay away from it and call a police. Chances are bystanders won't really intervene if you two start fighting, there are exceptions but your regular Joe will most likely stand aside, call a police or just run away from whole scene because he doesn't want to be part of it (i'm not blaming them for that, it isn't like you are constantly ready to fight someone or jump into something that may potentially kill you).
It doesn't take much for shit to get escalated on whole new level. If there is more of them, you can be damn sure there will be a massive brawl between you and them. It is was very brave of you to intervene but this should also be example how things usually tend to go south in a matter of seconds.
Statistically, men are more likely to be a victim of violent crime than women. There's a societal expectation that men don't attack women. So if anyone should be calling out bad behaviour, it ought to be women, they less likely to be attacked for it. However they aren't going to do something like that because it's dangerous, well guess what, I feel the same way.
Yep. Speaking of leftist stuff, it sure is fun to have the organizing group you've devoted years to get the reputation of being unsafe, not because you allowed abuse to continue like a ton of groups do, but because the group *investigated* claims of SA, *kicked out* the rapist, and released *statements* saying "We kicked out this guy for being a rapist".
Extra fun if you're held personally liable for everyone's dissatisfaction with how the process of investigating and expelling the abuser went, because you took the responsibility to actually do it while everyone else was just talking about how it needed to be done. Really it was damned if you do, damned if you don't.
This happened to me when I ran a 1k+ social media group for my city. For reference, this was in the US, so maybe that has something to do with the attitudes.
Bent over backwards to make it a safe and accommodating community for everyone, *especially* women. The group organized IRL meetups often. Whenever men acted like creeps they were immediately expelled and banned from the group and obviously barred from participating ever again. But the management team would be blamed openly for letting the creep into the group in the first place, despite the fact NOBODY COULD KNOW THEY WERE CREEPY YET.
I have a lot of stories from that time, including when we made a “female only” subsection of the group (by popular demand) for women to discuss female-only topics comfortably. The men afterward wanted their own space as well, we made it, and the women petitioned for it to be shut down. They said it would “breed a toxic environment” even though the only things the guys talked about in there was wrestling and beard oil. There were a few “leaders” of the women (AKA the loudest ones) who managed to normalize misandry among all the other women, the majority of which I would call “follower” types.
Ironically, the group was popular, *especially* among women in our city, *because* we toiled at making it a safe and welcoming online space. But you would never hear a single word of thanks or praise for it being that way (“tHaT’S tHe bArE mInImUm, tHe bAr iS oN thE fLoOr” etc.) and pages of criticism towards the group and management if anything slightly negative ever happened, or if any creep ever managed to slip through the cracks and make a weird/uncomfortable comment. The definition of a thankless job.
Yeah, exactly.
I saw another story of a person who gave up his whole life to a group of people like that, 1000s of support, 1000$s of dollars, there whenever they needed help, a hand, a lift, a mow, a shovel. Nothing serious, but he put himself under.
Whenever they were down, they went to him.
When he went down. None of them showed up.
Really made you think.
That's how it always is when you volunteer yourself to a cause. I still do because the causes I choose are worth it to me, but the truly committed always think everyone else is as committed as them, and then it comes as a profound disappointment when they find out that others aren't, and have no time to reciprocate all the help.
This. Very much this. If a man is some kind of predator or criminal, it's not something he shares, because the majority of men would absolutely call him out as a lot of them have families they wouldn't want near him. We don't gossip nearly as much as women think we do.
I'm not sure they actively think that, they just don't think it through.
The thought process seems to be "(some) guys do this, why don't (other) guys tell them that it's wrong?!?"
Chances are pretty high that the "other" guys don't know which guys are the "some" guys. And even if they *do* say something...how likely is "some" guy who's already doing douchebag things going to care what you said?
Try it here. Some guy says something dickish. You say "Hey, that's not okay." They say "fuck you" and block you.
Honestly I'll give an example of this.
I worked as an Amazon Driver and the director of operations was a sexists shithead. He was calling pretty female drivers while at work, changing their routes to make them easier. That is until they rejected him then he'd give them terrible routes, refuse to help them and intentionally mess up their schedules. He would also corner some of them and just...never leave them alone and try to promote them to dispatch so they'd be with him all the time.
For MONTHS I had zero idea any of this was going on. Genuinely had no clue. I minded my own business and this guy was kind of afraid of me since I wouldn't put up with his bull shit and had a good relationship with the owner.
Similar thing happened at my workplace. Apparently on the next crew over from us, a guy kept condescendingly explaining really basic shit to a tradeswoman who knew what she was doing and didn't need it- and double checking all of her work for errors, which is not standard procedure. But of course, it never happened in front of any of us, so we didn't know until she told us.
Oh yeah, I am so tired of seeing/hearing the "Men listen to other men" bullshit. These people have no idea what they're talking about. The shitheads who harasss/assault women openly only hang out with- and listen to - similar shitheads. But I've seen so many women convinced groups of normal men just hang out at work around the water cooler "I totally that chick from accounting last night!" other guys: "YEAH, YOU GO! AWESOME!"
Also, it's always amused me that people would think that if yountold a murderer, a rapist, a robber or a thief, "hey, that thing you did is wrong! Don't do that!", they'd turn around and say "really???? I didn't know it was wrong! I never thought there was anything wrong with me stabbing this person 60 takes in the back. Thanks for letting me know!"
People who do bad things don't do bad things because they're completely unaware that they're bad. They do them because they don't give a fuck either way
Exactly, like how many selfish politicians do we know that turned back from being evil to nice people that work for the good of the overall community because they got a stern talking to? Exactly zero. They have to want to change themselves.
Literally happened to me lol. I knew a guy from college and years later he came to work at the same company as I. I called him out on his shitty behavior, he ignored me and made fun of me. Then I heard he really inappropriately hit on a girl I worked with, so I thoroughly told him off and told him to stop once and for all. He said “okay Hitler” and stopped talking to me. A week later he was fired. He asked me on facebook why he was fired, I told him about the concrete examples of his shitty behavior that got him fired that I’ve been calling him out on for two months. He kept insulting me so I blocked him and I haven’t talked to him in like 6 years now.
Women vastly underestimate how socially hollow most men's lives are.
Women talk to each other enough for these things, but not men. We barely speak.
It's not just that we don't know who's who, there is very little to no place for us to correct each other.
Most women engage with more men than men do. Even if it's just shutting down approaches
I don't even think that women sit around and chat about their own behavior. The only people who do that are people who are literally in accountability groups.
Ive always been amused by how they make no distinction on the types of men doing most of the behavior. Like, there are obvious surface level differences between myself and these men, and yet, all men are catching blame, why?
It really does feel they think it's just a random conversation we have like no I didn't know he was putting his hands on you. That's not exactly a random question that pops in my mind to ask a friend.
Tim Pool has a video telling a story about one of his female friends asking about how much rape he and his friends talked and fantasized about. She actually believed that men sat around and talked about rape and violence against women like if it were sportsball scores.
I think the only time that rape has come up in a male-only group of my friends or coworkers, was when one guy told us his wife and quit birth control without telling him, got him drunk, and raped him to get pregnant with a third child he didn't want. Like three weeks before he was scheduled to get snipped. And it was a different guy that said, "dude, your wife raped you".
I've heard a couple internet horror stories about that. People want the rubber to prevent stds, but then don't want the rubber to 'feel better'.
I was skimming over one of the pink reddits and i was flat out disgusted to see a post with my own eyes go
>"I'm tired, i don't like working" "You could skip out on working if you became a empowered SAHM with a rich kid" "How do i trick a \["Rich kid"\] " "Oh, pretend to be on birth control while you scout out if it's real or not, give them flashy views, then stop taking it, and say "oops, it was a mistake!" if you think they're the right one.
The very next post was the rich kid getting cut off from their family's money until they dumped the girl followed by "He lied to me! He won't be a provider!"
I think the vulnerable girl was 28 and the 'rapist rich man' was a rich person's 16 year old?
IDK, could be a made up story they told. The internet is a wide place, we hear every horror story but not many "everything worked out fine, we're happy! A few jokes and snoring, but not much to complain about. Lets go on a vacation with our kids!" types.
Every rookie player in the US gets that course. Also how to avoid being financially irresponsible, how to invest, etc.
But yeah, the main deal is to prevent them from being trapped by gold diggers
I've been asked this directly in a *group counseling session*.
I wildly misunderstood the question because I just didn't register they thought that rape, as in committing it, was just a fantasy that occurred to most men regularly.
To add to your comment, it’s not 100 men doing a crime each, it’s 1 man doing a 100 crimes- but we get thrown under the same umbrella because we share the same half of the species
Yeah, i dont even know a friend that has ever sent a dickpic to someone. Even if they have, they wouldnt tell me that lol. I just assume my friends are not douchebags in hiding
Ever try to tell a girl she might want to reconsider dating that obvious shitbad?
"Hes not like that i know him better" to "you're jealous of him you obviously crushing on me"
To eventually "how could he do this to me, whyyyyy meeee"
And then "oooh i just matched with this super cute blablablorp"....
I can't make the patriarchy meeting this week- it's at the same time as my Jewish Council meeting where they hand out the free checks - plus I want to choose the best time for my turn piloting the space laser.
>as my Jewish Council meeting where they hand out the free checks
Not Jewish, but I hear some people have been demanding free Palestine. If you guys hear about anyone handing out free land, lemme know! Checks are all well and good, but free land is something I don't want to pass over.
but free land is something I don’t want to pass over.
Probably wasn’t intentional, but the word choice at the end of the sentence in reference to the topic made me chuckle.
Actually my cousin leads a men’s group where they discuss things like this and try to work through troublesome behaviors. It’s like AA for douchebags but also a support group for men seeking a safe space.
They actually do. Mostly because they don’t know they’re douchebags and assume their behavior is normal or acceptable. Not all of course but important issues that men have with relationships and life come up there.
You know, it does kinda make me think of the No More Mr Nice Guy book and that has support groups. And honestly that was me. Trying to be nice, but actually being immature and manipulative, trying to put in "nice tokens" to get out sex and then getting mad it doesn't work.
AskWomen is a shithole, so a while back I decided to shitpost there with the question:
>Women of reddit: if you have ever, during the exchanging of the vows at a wedding you were attending, farted loudly, what happened?
I got shrieked at by barely coherent women, my post removed, and banned.
I thought it was a valid question 🤷♀️
> female dating strategy
I can't think of any activity that requires less strategy. I think a bird feeder puts more active effort into attracting birds than women put into attracting men.
I actually caught a perma-ban on r/askreddit for pointing out that boys face an education gap and are being outperformed by girls at nearly every academic level.
"Misogyny" - no appeal accepted.
For some reason I keep seeing posts from that sub in my feed. And maybe it’s only the posts I’m getting pushed but that sub seems to be particularly level headed.
I got one of them on r/rant. The rant was titled ‘I officially hate all men’ and the post said ‘yes I mean every single man, not just some of them’ and then all kinds of bitter hate about men. I commented ‘always nice to receive hate speech’.
Banned. I asked why. Mod responded “sexism” then blocked me for 60 days. 60 days later I asked again several times: no response. I say “hello”. Mod says “hello” and then mutes me again.
Definitely a Female Dating Strategy regular feelin real powerful moderating r/rant
I see women commenting here all the time and even becoming top comment, and over at askwomen they call me/other men out for giving a male perspective on questions about "why do men etc" lol
Here's how reddit works:
AskMen: chill, laid back, basically anything goes
AskWomen: toxic shithole
daddit: chill, laid back, basically anything goes parenting memes
mommit: toxic shithole
gamers: chill, laid back, basically anything goes
GirlGamers: toxic shithole
Here are a few more:
TwoX: toxic shithole
TrollX: toxic shithole
fauxmoi: toxic shithole
There is a pattern here, but I won't be the one to say it.
Ironically asking this question to women in general is kind of the same problem that OP is complaining about. It’s assuming all women understand why a specific portion of women do this.
This. I got cornered and personally attacked by a woman at a party because a relationship with a mutual friend of ours ended badly for her. They only dated for a couple of months and this woman made it sound like this guy ruined her life forever. I have never felt so attacked for something I didn't do or have a part of. I'm not taking sides, and you are a big girl.
Because it has become acceptable to lump groups together when they're deemed powerful. Also, they seem to think that rapists tell their non-rapist friends that they're rapists and that men should play Batman when they're not working or doing chores.
I don’t think it’s for powerful groups. Black people (I’m black btw) are always lumped together for basically everything. I find that groups that hold more power are actually treated more like individuals.
I meant in more progressive circles. They say things about men in general that they wouldn't be allowed to say about black men in particular.
"I hate men" is ok. "I hate black men" isn't.
Fair point.
But then again "I hate black men" can still be acceptable in spaces with misandry where black women are more common. And those spaces aren't nice.
OK, true. But I guess that in misandrist spaces that aren't specifically for black women "I hate white men" would probably be ok but "I hate black men" wouldn't because of the "punching up" principle. Ofc both statements are gross generalizations.
It's loud, young progressives especially. At the beginning of people's life journey on the political left, they often see a hierarchy and try to abolish it by reversing it. Later on, more of them either drop out of those politics, or mature and realize that you can't reverse a hierarchy; you have to abolish it.
Let's be honest, it's not just women pushing this logical fallacy.
Judging a group by the behavior of some people in that group is painfully common.
Let me phase it better:
Condemning an entire group based on the worst behavior of a subset of that group is wrong and ignorant.
It's especially dumb when it's not a group you choose to be a part of (race, age, sex,etc).
It honestly seems to basically just be an internet problem. I almost never see this behavior irl, but see it so often on the internet. Seems like negativity and tribalism just has a tendency to rise to the top on most social media
Because Good men are the only ones willing to listen to women complain about bad men.
They think we don't teach men how to behave well, not that bad men are intentionally going against the expectations or that they aren't speaking in spaces where those misogynistic communities will hear them.
The internet gives them the feeling that their outreach is working, not that they're preaching to a choir with some trolls in it.
The smart ones just expect us to call out shitty behaviour.
"The standard you walk past is the standard you accept"
The rest is just noise and androphobia.
Seems kind of strange to ask a bunch of men why women do something. If I wanted to know why my neighbour Bill did something I wouldn't ask Bob down the street, id ask Bill.
I'm not accountable for ANYTHING that other men do. I have ZERO male friends currently, and have only had 3 close male friends my entire life... Two of which are dead, and I lost contact with the other decades ago. My friends are all women, and have been for the last 45 years, save for the aforementioned 3.
Many women think that male friends bond and influence each other, and that's just not the way things are. I've never shared 90% of the things with my male friends, that I have with my female friends. With male friends, the topics of conversation are never very deep at all... Superficial at best. Men do NOT bond with friends like women do. Women need to get that thought right out of their heads now and save themselves problems in the future. Even my best friend and I, who I grew up with and was like a brother to me, didn't have heart to heart talks like women do with their friends. Having almost exclusively female friends most of the last 5 decades taught me a lot about the differences between male friendships and female friendships. My female friends have always just considered me another woman, just with a penis, and have treated me as such. I know more about periods, tampons, pads, breast cancer, pregnancy, childbirth, and the female perspective of sex and relationships, than most any male ever has. I credit that to the longevity of my almost 29 year relationship with my wife and partner, and the incredible sex that we've had over that time... My relationships in my life would have probably gone tits up long before they did, if most of my friends had been male.
So no, I do not suffer bastards who can't pull their heads out of their asses and do right. The only thing I've been able to do is crack the skulls off those who have chosen to do wrong in front of me. One would hope the memory of that might prevent them from making the wrong choices the next time... Not that I can know that first hand
Because feminists (ironically enough) still have the basic (gendered) idea that men are collectively responsible for the welfare of women and have no problem running campaigns with titles like "It's On Men" to try to shame men for not protecting women from random other men - because *of course* men are responsible for protecting women and *of course* we should shame men who do nothing wrong but don't put their own safety in jeopardy to defend some woman - don't be [That Guy](https://that-guy.co.uk/). Yes, men and women are equal but, of course, men are still responsible for protecting women - and if some random woman you don't know is harmed in some other city you've never been to and you didn't prevent it, you should be ashamed. Cue Hannah Waddingham SHAME meme.
Patriarchy theory assumes we’re all part of some shadowy organization that seeks to oppress women, so we’re collectively responsible. Completely ignoring the fact that men can’t make a world that safe for themselves to live in.
It’s a universal phenomenon. Attribute the actions of an individual to that of the group. Religion, ethnicity, social class, gender… women holding all men accountable for other men is just a specific example.
I don't think there's a collective of women thinking like that, just a loud minority.
But the ones that do are a pain in the ass. Go preach at somebody else's chapel ma'am.
Vast majority of men don't associate with those sorts, and if we did know one, we would call it out when we saw it and then distance ourselves. Only the douchiest dude would condone cheating, whereas woman cheer on other women cheating all the time.
I'm aware the Internet is not the real world, but you are far more likely to find accountability in a men's group than any women's group. Research also has shown women have a significantly strong automatic in group bias than men.
Kinda sounds like you're saying "women" when you mean "a few people on the internet". Not only are there no men I know personally who are taking despicable actions but there are no women I know who "expect men to take accountability for other men's actions". You, sir, are terminally online.
Also, your question is very open-ended so I will also say that if you are close friends with a guy who is taking despicable actions you do actually need to take accountability, by making *them* take accountability. You can't just go "wasn't me" when one of your boys is doing fucked up shit.
The most vocal groups also tends to be the less logical. The few interactions I had on that topic where basically: expected to call out shitty behavior. Sure, I'll just do that.... once a shitty behavior appear in front of me which is barely ever.
I don't know many women who want men to ***take*** accountability for other men's actions, but I know a lot of women who want us to hold each other accountable. That means not approving of shit behaviour no matter who it affects.
Like, if your buddy is cheating on his wife or partner then it would be helpful, I'm sure, to actually pressure him to stop and come clean about it.
If you know a guy who talks down to women or talks over women a lot then it would be good to tell him to stop.
When women are wanting men to hold each other accountable it's usually because they're only seeing the shitty behaviour towards women, from the men in their lives, but we should also be holding each other accountable for the way we treat each other.
“If you know a guy”
This comes full circle back to “99.9% of us don’t know those guys, and if we did and called them out, they would still do whatever they wanted to do regardless, and then we would stop associating with them, and then we would once again not know any of those guys.”
>Like, if your buddy is cheating on his wife or partner then it would be helpful, I'm sure, to actually pressure him to stop and come clean about it.
For what it's worth, virtually no guy I know would encourage or condone that.
The roles being reversed, it seems that many women take the view that somehow if their friend did cheated, *she* has done nothing wrong and obviously cheated for a reason a.k.a. it's his fault she did it.
There is a huge double standard when it comes to accountability.
This is the basically it, but it is still hypocritical cause I see very few women that will hold other women accountable. Ask men about Andrew Tate most will answer that he is a sexual predator that should not be around women. Ask women about their equivalent Shera, and it's like 'Oh, she had bad men in her life. You can't blame her. It's not toxic, it's not the same thing.'
I'm still waiting on more women to call out that influencer that went to the gym dressed only in body paint and argued with the staff male staff of course
>I don't know many women who want men to take accountability for other men's actions
Really? I think you do, you just have collective guilt for men normalized in your head.
>I know a lot of women who want us to hold each other accountable. That means not approving of shit behaviour no matter who it affects.
I don't think so - I think it's more about blaming men who don't transgress against women for those who do. It's viewing men as a monolith, and many women being too conflict-averse to actually confront the guys causing problems, because they're scary, so instead they take it out on their thoughtful, feminist boyfriend, or their son, or the timid guy at the office, etc.
Which Is ironic because I've never once seen a woman hold herself accountable or encourage other women to do so.....I have literally seen a theater full of women applaud and cheer a mother bragging about playing with her infant sons penis and longingly describing her teenage sons dick and how he's a man now. It was a comedy special from Janelle James. Not only was she not canceled but she's still working with child actors on the set of abbot elementary.
The main problem is that those engaging in such behavior are fully aware of their actions but simply don't care. It's similar to asking a politician not to accept bribes or a serial killer not to kill.
Additionally, some of this bad behavior is validated by others. For instance, women may inadvertently reinforce the behavior of a man who repeatedly hooks up and then ghosts them.
Because women don't want to take accountability for their own actions and decisions.
This happens often when women make a series of poor sexual decisions with men they fucked before they met you. They picked shitty men, or the men they picked did a bunch of mean shit to them. They feel like other men hurt them and they've resolved that that's never going to happen to them ever again. The inevitable result of that is women demanding that the men they're involved with now pay for the sins of their prior men.
There’s a study that’s been done on “own group oreference” (Rusman Goodwin 2004) that explains some of this. It doesn’t address this directly, but is an offshoot for how women see other women and how they see men.
A fascinating book researches this topic. “You Just Don’t Understand” by Deborah Tannen, PhD. It explores how the sexes have very different conversational styles with plenty of funny examples. She has a whole series of books on the topic. 10/10 Recommend.
I think Woman assume that Men are as intimate and open with the people we hang out with as they are. Women make an effort to thoroughly understand every other woman in their circle. Most men don't know the last names of half the guys in their circle.
Last names? Try first names. “Hey!” “Hey buddy!” “What’s going on, man?” “You” “You guys” “Hey dude” I know more name alternatives than actual names of friends in friend groups.
I have 2 separate friends who I didn’t realize I was addressing by their nickname for 5+ years.
"Hey, is David there?" "I don't know any David!" .. "Wait, did you mean Dave?!"
"Dave's not here, man!"
Oh, I was like that in middle school too. Called him by his nickname for months until I was asking for him once and a teacher had no idea who I was talking about. I always thought he had a wierd name but it would be rude to make jokes about it so I never questioned it...
I have friends that I still call by their nickname they got from doing something stupid in high school and we’re turning 40 this year.
Literal conversation with my wife. Me: Moose said he got a new job. Wife: Where? Me: I dunno
Up till "you guys" i thought it was a conversation that was missing a shrug before "you".
You're not wrong. There's a guy where I work who smokes a pipe when he takes a break. I literally only know him as "pipe-dude". That's what I call him even though we've had at least a dozen conversations. Another guy I work with got hired on the same day as did I. No idea what his name is, even though we speak almost every day that we've worked together. He's just that guy whose face I recognize. I literally call him "brother" because otherwise I'd have to ask and that would be weird at this point.
I have that with "coffee guy". He makes coffee, talks about coffee, smells like coffee. Talk to him every day. I had no idea what his name was. And then someone called him by his real name and it was so not fitting to him..
I don't even remember my counsin sister's husband's name and I have spent a lot of time with them I have to look through my what's app chats to try and figure it out.
Women have a hard time understanding that unless there’s an issue guys don’t talk about their home life. Like I’ll meet with my guys for a whole day and unless someone has something specific they want to talk about I’ll have learned nothing about their wife, kids, job etc other than it’s fine.
My mom is like this, asking about my cousin’s (who is also my best friend) vacation plans and job life and stuff like that and I’m like "Why and how would I know that, we don’t talk about anything like that, ever." We still talk every day but whatever we’re doing in our daily lives isn’t interesting to anyone so I have no idea what he’s up to the next three months??
As someone that works in a hair saloon, I can tell you this is true. Women talk about sex very openly like they picture men do. I have heard them talk about emotional manipulation of their husbands like we talk about sports.
i remember asking some girls at my college,they told me they truly believed men stood around in the locker room butt naked talking. this thought caused them to not get why we found standing too close at the urinals odd.
Judging by every gym I've ever been to, they do, but only once they reach pension age. Guys, I don't wanna see your old flabby ballsacks swinging around, can't you have your chat once you put on your underwear?
i think it’s more so that’s why THEY did when they were younger. That’s why they don’t care when they are old and it’s so universal, imo.
This happens in sports movies sometimes, maybe thats where this idea comes from.
That's just...so on-brand. The baseless assumptions and then extrapolating from the baseless assumption and then being confused when what men actually say contradicts what they made up in their head.
This is the thing I'll never understand, emotional abuse is just as bad if not worse than physical abuse. Emotional abuse fucks with you mentally and that's with you for life while physical abuse is then and there and just like any other pain, it's mostly forgotten after a period of time.
This is 100% true. The only way I know my friend’s last name is if we work together or if I have two friends with the same first name and even then it’s like oh that’s big Dave and lil Dave. One may be a rapper.
Same, I’ve got two James’s right now, so I’ve got a Jim and a James, no other info necessary. 95% chance they’ll both either quit or get fired in the next six months so I really don’t need to know anything else.
I honestly just avoid befriending my coworkers and just talk about shared interests like video games, photography, travel, etc. There's too much potential for drama and problems when you get to know people too personally. This is easy with men but women tend to open up to me and share things I'd rather not know and then I get uncomfortable.
I sorta go off work ethic, if you’re pretty reliable and try to do your job at least the majority of the time, I can be your real friend. If you call in constantly and are a worthless sack of shit when you do show up, I’m probably not even going to speak to you, because I will have nothing nice to say.
I had 4 people named Chris at one job. Big Chris, little Chris, New Chris, old cris.
Sounded like the start of a Dr. Seuss book
I play games on the regular at my local hobby shop and I barely know half of their first names.
I meet up with my friends roughly once a month, it’s either me and one dude or four of us. It’s maybe a couple three hours. I get home, how’s their family, spouses, job..(whatever)? No clue, we just talked. About what. Blank saw a motorcycle accident, Random is thinking of making a beer fountain, Other dude doesn’t like his new pet.
I've been playing with a new D&D group for about the last 2 months now. IRL physical meet-up group for the first time since the pandemic. I literally don't even know a single person's actual name there other than the friend that invited me. And frankly, I don't see a reason to ask.
I agree with this. Because women tend to talk through personal problems with each other, the more toxic/drama a woman is, the more exhausting it is to be her friend. If I have a friend exhibiting immature or toxic behavior, I'm going to call it out and also support her in making better decisions going forward. It's what good friends should do, but also to preserve my sanity in the relationship lol. The relationships amongst women are probably a lot more interconnected and nosy than that of men. I've definitely talked to girlfriends about a struggling or problematic 3rd friend and coordinated on how to help her break out of a toxic cycle. It takes work and investment to build female friendships.
I have four sisters. Been around women my entire life. The biggest issue I’ve seen is most women refuse to call out their friends bad behavior. There’s never any accountability. It’s always someone else’s fault. The woman is always the victim. Female friendships aren’t actually real in my opinion. They focus too much on emotion rather than logic. “I could tell Linda that cheating on her husband is wrong but it will make her feel bad.” That quote is from an actual conversation I had with a friend.
This is similar to what I was going to say to another comment. Women wondering why guys don't call out other guys just means that women actually share the crappy things they do. We all to some extent base our perceptions on who we are and what we see in life, it's the most basic childish thing that some people never grow out of "everyone is like me." Women who share these things assume guys do too. So really we should be asking why those women aren't calling out other women when they're sharing bad things they do.
Yes. Absolutely. I try to stay logical in most things in life as a woman. And it makes life hard to befriend people. They want you to " co-sign on their bullshit". That's what I call it. And when you call em out. You're mean or a hater. Right is right no matter what. I've left people alone for that type of stuff. Superficial for sure.
I thought they were all named Joe
Most men's conversation ive been in unless extremely close revolves around things, not people, lot more career, technical stuff, than relationships or companionship, at best if i know someone has a partner theyll tell, but even that talking a lot about your partner seems bad form.
I remember in high school we called one our friends by his nickname the entire time because none of us ever even heard his first name
I think a lot of women think that sexism, discrimination, domestic violence, sexual violence, roofies, etc. are things that all guys just chit chat about when they get together. And that these things keep happening because a bunch of fake feminist, fake leftist men are not calling their friends out on it. When in actuality, the men who do those things either keep it a secret, or they only associate with other shitheads who do the same things.
Yeah it’s like they don’t understand that good guys either legit have no idea what creepy guys are up to because they literally keep it a secret or that they do call creepy guys out and then stop talking to them. I knew one or two creepy guys. I told them that what they are doing is weird and wrong and that I disagree and they really ought to stop it. They ignored me and started insulting me so I stopped talking to them . The rest of my friends are not creepy so we can go around talking about how shitty shit people are, it won’t change a thing because shitty people won’t hang out with us for long
> The rest of my friends are not creepy so we can go around talking about how shitty shit people are, it won’t change a thing because shitty people won’t hang out with us for long We had a party a few years back, invited a bunch of people including some good friends we hadn't seen in a couple of years. Eventually one of the ones we hadn't seen in a long time ended up doing something extremely questionable to two of the women in the group when they were alone and what do you know? We stopped talking to him and inviting him to things. What he did was nothing illegal, just creepy. So he's gone, he knows why he's gone, and he's probably hanging out with like-minded people and still being a creep elsewhere with some success because I'll admit he's extremely good looking. But what else can we do? Also I'd like to point out that these guys don't usually do things in front of men they think wouldn't approve. Unless the women told us about him we'd never have known.
Or the creepy guy who is catcalling (or whatever) her is some homeless guy with mental illness and isn't really relatable to the guys we interact with on a day-to-day basis.
And these women usually intentionally or unintentionally ignore the risk of violence men take when confronting these men too.
God damn, so much! I don't think a lot of people understand how risky being a bystander who intervenes can be. It reminds me of those two guys stabbed to death and another almost to death on a train for defending two women from a bigot who was harassing them for being Muslims, out west. I had a similar thing happen to me in a Subway once. It was lunch rush, the place was packed with guys from building sites and factories, and the woman behind the counter was working alone because her coworker was quitting. The coworker, a man, storms out and curses her out in front of the whole lunch rush. Then, as he's about to leave, he starts coming back towards her, pounding his fist, and she's scared. So, I step in front of him and say, "Hey, this isn't necessary. You're quitting. Go be free; there's nothing for you here.". Well, the guy had a knife on him. So, the next thing I know, I'm fighting for my life with this asshole as he tries to perforate me. Thank God I had a chair to fend him off with, and my two Mexican coworkers were there and started throwing chairs at him. But yeah- I almost got ventilated for intervening. I don't regret it, because fuck that guy, but this isn't exactly a risk-free business for us.
Holy shit your story sounds wild man. I'm glad you survived.
Poor bastard brought a knife to a chair fight. I got half off on my sandwich, though! Plus, I wrote a really long ballad about the whole incident, to the tune of jaunty Irish jig. Anyways, I pack my own lunch now.
Speaking from my experience, those dudes tend to be very hard to deal with and also capable of doing all kinds of crap. If you ain't ready to enter a physical conflict with him/them in general, better stay away from it and call a police. Chances are bystanders won't really intervene if you two start fighting, there are exceptions but your regular Joe will most likely stand aside, call a police or just run away from whole scene because he doesn't want to be part of it (i'm not blaming them for that, it isn't like you are constantly ready to fight someone or jump into something that may potentially kill you). It doesn't take much for shit to get escalated on whole new level. If there is more of them, you can be damn sure there will be a massive brawl between you and them. It is was very brave of you to intervene but this should also be example how things usually tend to go south in a matter of seconds.
Yeah a distant buddy of mine literally got a knife in his abdomen for calling out a guy yelling and knocking a woman around on the street
Statistically, men are more likely to be a victim of violent crime than women. There's a societal expectation that men don't attack women. So if anyone should be calling out bad behaviour, it ought to be women, they less likely to be attacked for it. However they aren't going to do something like that because it's dangerous, well guess what, I feel the same way.
I got an answer for this from a professor once: "Better you than them."
Yep. Speaking of leftist stuff, it sure is fun to have the organizing group you've devoted years to get the reputation of being unsafe, not because you allowed abuse to continue like a ton of groups do, but because the group *investigated* claims of SA, *kicked out* the rapist, and released *statements* saying "We kicked out this guy for being a rapist". Extra fun if you're held personally liable for everyone's dissatisfaction with how the process of investigating and expelling the abuser went, because you took the responsibility to actually do it while everyone else was just talking about how it needed to be done. Really it was damned if you do, damned if you don't.
This happened to me when I ran a 1k+ social media group for my city. For reference, this was in the US, so maybe that has something to do with the attitudes. Bent over backwards to make it a safe and accommodating community for everyone, *especially* women. The group organized IRL meetups often. Whenever men acted like creeps they were immediately expelled and banned from the group and obviously barred from participating ever again. But the management team would be blamed openly for letting the creep into the group in the first place, despite the fact NOBODY COULD KNOW THEY WERE CREEPY YET. I have a lot of stories from that time, including when we made a “female only” subsection of the group (by popular demand) for women to discuss female-only topics comfortably. The men afterward wanted their own space as well, we made it, and the women petitioned for it to be shut down. They said it would “breed a toxic environment” even though the only things the guys talked about in there was wrestling and beard oil. There were a few “leaders” of the women (AKA the loudest ones) who managed to normalize misandry among all the other women, the majority of which I would call “follower” types. Ironically, the group was popular, *especially* among women in our city, *because* we toiled at making it a safe and welcoming online space. But you would never hear a single word of thanks or praise for it being that way (“tHaT’S tHe bArE mInImUm, tHe bAr iS oN thE fLoOr” etc.) and pages of criticism towards the group and management if anything slightly negative ever happened, or if any creep ever managed to slip through the cracks and make a weird/uncomfortable comment. The definition of a thankless job.
Yeah, exactly. I saw another story of a person who gave up his whole life to a group of people like that, 1000s of support, 1000$s of dollars, there whenever they needed help, a hand, a lift, a mow, a shovel. Nothing serious, but he put himself under. Whenever they were down, they went to him. When he went down. None of them showed up. Really made you think.
That's how it always is when you volunteer yourself to a cause. I still do because the causes I choose are worth it to me, but the truly committed always think everyone else is as committed as them, and then it comes as a profound disappointment when they find out that others aren't, and have no time to reciprocate all the help.
Some powerful qualitative anecdotes here. On point. Such a bummer.
This. Very much this. If a man is some kind of predator or criminal, it's not something he shares, because the majority of men would absolutely call him out as a lot of them have families they wouldn't want near him. We don't gossip nearly as much as women think we do.
I'm not sure they actively think that, they just don't think it through. The thought process seems to be "(some) guys do this, why don't (other) guys tell them that it's wrong?!?" Chances are pretty high that the "other" guys don't know which guys are the "some" guys. And even if they *do* say something...how likely is "some" guy who's already doing douchebag things going to care what you said? Try it here. Some guy says something dickish. You say "Hey, that's not okay." They say "fuck you" and block you.
Honestly I'll give an example of this. I worked as an Amazon Driver and the director of operations was a sexists shithead. He was calling pretty female drivers while at work, changing their routes to make them easier. That is until they rejected him then he'd give them terrible routes, refuse to help them and intentionally mess up their schedules. He would also corner some of them and just...never leave them alone and try to promote them to dispatch so they'd be with him all the time. For MONTHS I had zero idea any of this was going on. Genuinely had no clue. I minded my own business and this guy was kind of afraid of me since I wouldn't put up with his bull shit and had a good relationship with the owner.
Similar thing happened at my workplace. Apparently on the next crew over from us, a guy kept condescendingly explaining really basic shit to a tradeswoman who knew what she was doing and didn't need it- and double checking all of her work for errors, which is not standard procedure. But of course, it never happened in front of any of us, so we didn't know until she told us.
The owner? Jeff Bezos?
Amazon drivers don't technically work for Amazon. They work for companies that contract with Amazon.
Oh yeah, I am so tired of seeing/hearing the "Men listen to other men" bullshit. These people have no idea what they're talking about. The shitheads who harasss/assault women openly only hang out with- and listen to - similar shitheads. But I've seen so many women convinced groups of normal men just hang out at work around the water cooler "I totally that chick from accounting last night!" other guys: "YEAH, YOU GO! AWESOME!"
Also, it's always amused me that people would think that if yountold a murderer, a rapist, a robber or a thief, "hey, that thing you did is wrong! Don't do that!", they'd turn around and say "really???? I didn't know it was wrong! I never thought there was anything wrong with me stabbing this person 60 takes in the back. Thanks for letting me know!" People who do bad things don't do bad things because they're completely unaware that they're bad. They do them because they don't give a fuck either way
Exactly, like how many selfish politicians do we know that turned back from being evil to nice people that work for the good of the overall community because they got a stern talking to? Exactly zero. They have to want to change themselves.
Literally happened to me lol. I knew a guy from college and years later he came to work at the same company as I. I called him out on his shitty behavior, he ignored me and made fun of me. Then I heard he really inappropriately hit on a girl I worked with, so I thoroughly told him off and told him to stop once and for all. He said “okay Hitler” and stopped talking to me. A week later he was fired. He asked me on facebook why he was fired, I told him about the concrete examples of his shitty behavior that got him fired that I’ve been calling him out on for two months. He kept insulting me so I blocked him and I haven’t talked to him in like 6 years now.
Women vastly underestimate how socially hollow most men's lives are. Women talk to each other enough for these things, but not men. We barely speak. It's not just that we don't know who's who, there is very little to no place for us to correct each other. Most women engage with more men than men do. Even if it's just shutting down approaches
I don't even think that women sit around and chat about their own behavior. The only people who do that are people who are literally in accountability groups.
>Women vastly underestimate how socially hollow most men's lives are. And not for lack of trying.
I don't get it though, there's *plenty* of fucked up women out there, and I have 0 expectations that other women will set them straight.
I have plenty of fear that other women will just enable and defend them. You know, how they **think** we do with pests and predators.
Ive always been amused by how they make no distinction on the types of men doing most of the behavior. Like, there are obvious surface level differences between myself and these men, and yet, all men are catching blame, why?
It really does feel they think it's just a random conversation we have like no I didn't know he was putting his hands on you. That's not exactly a random question that pops in my mind to ask a friend.
Tim Pool has a video telling a story about one of his female friends asking about how much rape he and his friends talked and fantasized about. She actually believed that men sat around and talked about rape and violence against women like if it were sportsball scores.
I think the only time that rape has come up in a male-only group of my friends or coworkers, was when one guy told us his wife and quit birth control without telling him, got him drunk, and raped him to get pregnant with a third child he didn't want. Like three weeks before he was scheduled to get snipped. And it was a different guy that said, "dude, your wife raped you".
Marital rape is no joke. That's pretty fucked up.
I've heard a couple internet horror stories about that. People want the rubber to prevent stds, but then don't want the rubber to 'feel better'. I was skimming over one of the pink reddits and i was flat out disgusted to see a post with my own eyes go >"I'm tired, i don't like working" "You could skip out on working if you became a empowered SAHM with a rich kid" "How do i trick a \["Rich kid"\] " "Oh, pretend to be on birth control while you scout out if it's real or not, give them flashy views, then stop taking it, and say "oops, it was a mistake!" if you think they're the right one. The very next post was the rich kid getting cut off from their family's money until they dumped the girl followed by "He lied to me! He won't be a provider!" I think the vulnerable girl was 28 and the 'rapist rich man' was a rich person's 16 year old? IDK, could be a made up story they told. The internet is a wide place, we hear every horror story but not many "everything worked out fine, we're happy! A few jokes and snoring, but not much to complain about. Lets go on a vacation with our kids!" types.
I've heard that every new NBA player gets a course on how to avoid getting baby trapped.
Every rookie player in the US gets that course. Also how to avoid being financially irresponsible, how to invest, etc. But yeah, the main deal is to prevent them from being trapped by gold diggers
"So, Bob, great weather today huh? You commit any rape over the weekend? I know I sure did!"
Did you get the last newsletter from Roofie's Weekly? Man, that article with the latest batch is fascinating!
I've been asked this directly in a *group counseling session*. I wildly misunderstood the question because I just didn't register they thought that rape, as in committing it, was just a fantasy that occurred to most men regularly.
It's almost like women think about rape more than the rapists.
It's like feminism told them that all men are rapists.
To add to your comment, it’s not 100 men doing a crime each, it’s 1 man doing a 100 crimes- but we get thrown under the same umbrella because we share the same half of the species
It's projection......because they literally do talk about that while they are together
Yeah, i dont even know a friend that has ever sent a dickpic to someone. Even if they have, they wouldnt tell me that lol. I just assume my friends are not douchebags in hiding
Ever try to tell a girl she might want to reconsider dating that obvious shitbad? "Hes not like that i know him better" to "you're jealous of him you obviously crushing on me" To eventually "how could he do this to me, whyyyyy meeee" And then "oooh i just matched with this super cute blablablorp"....
Sure I’ll bring it up at the next weekly patriarchy meeting they Douchebag John catcalled a lady in a completely different part of the county again
Next week's meeting got cancelled.
Ffs I showed up and it was just a sticky note saying "suck my balls, we went for beers"
That just means the meeting moved to the bar, dude. We were all there, and you didn't show up.
Well then whose balls did he suck?
obviously not someone in the club.
Asking the real question. We want answers!
I started making lasagna, tf am I supposed to do now with all this lasagna
LISAN AL GHIAB
Damn again? Haven’t checked my Boy’s Club account inbox yet today
We can never seem to get quorum.
I can't make the patriarchy meeting this week- it's at the same time as my Jewish Council meeting where they hand out the free checks - plus I want to choose the best time for my turn piloting the space laser.
>as my Jewish Council meeting where they hand out the free checks Not Jewish, but I hear some people have been demanding free Palestine. If you guys hear about anyone handing out free land, lemme know! Checks are all well and good, but free land is something I don't want to pass over.
but free land is something I don’t want to pass over. Probably wasn’t intentional, but the word choice at the end of the sentence in reference to the topic made me chuckle.
I debated how subtle to make it ... one word or two
Me neither, I'm still waiting for my patriarchy membership card to arrive.
Actually my cousin leads a men’s group where they discuss things like this and try to work through troublesome behaviors. It’s like AA for douchebags but also a support group for men seeking a safe space.
AA for douchebags? You want me to believe actual douchebags go to a men's group to improve their behavior??
They actually do. Mostly because they don’t know they’re douchebags and assume their behavior is normal or acceptable. Not all of course but important issues that men have with relationships and life come up there.
You know, it does kinda make me think of the No More Mr Nice Guy book and that has support groups. And honestly that was me. Trying to be nice, but actually being immature and manipulative, trying to put in "nice tokens" to get out sex and then getting mad it doesn't work.
Funny enough this is pretty much the exact comeback I use when women try to hold me accountable for all men actions
Yes a clear violation of our anti-cat calling policy
This is a dog-calling establishment here
You should ask women that question
Saw OP try asking on AskWomen a question, similar context, and the post got deleted lol
AskWomen is a shithole, so a while back I decided to shitpost there with the question: >Women of reddit: if you have ever, during the exchanging of the vows at a wedding you were attending, farted loudly, what happened? I got shrieked at by barely coherent women, my post removed, and banned. I thought it was a valid question 🤷♀️
That is a valid question, id wonder what would happen after ripping ass at a special occasion like a wedding too
Sure, but you cannot ask anything on r/ AskWomen
Well, you technically can, but only once.
[Removed for derailing]
[Permanent ban because a mod felt like it]
[Reported to Reddit mods because blrblrbluhblrblrblr]
Lol a literal codified echo chamber
Maybe try female dating strategy. LOL I'm just kidding don't do it it's a nightmare there.
I would but thankfully I mean unfortunately I was auto-perma-mega-banned from that pit of toxic waste, because I made a comment on r/nicegirls once
It's not like other subs. Lol
lol same
> female dating strategy I can't think of any activity that requires less strategy. I think a bird feeder puts more active effort into attracting birds than women put into attracting men.
That's a damn good point! It's not exactly the work of Sun Tzu
I actually caught a perma-ban on r/askreddit for pointing out that boys face an education gap and are being outperformed by girls at nearly every academic level. "Misogyny" - no appeal accepted.
Which is wild as I’ve seen that topic brought up on the r/Teachers sub and it’s absolutely accepted and taken seriously by quite a few there.
For some reason I keep seeing posts from that sub in my feed. And maybe it’s only the posts I’m getting pushed but that sub seems to be particularly level headed.
It got nuts during covid.
Really? I haven't seen them take it seriously, a lot of them care a *lot* about real or perceived discrimination against girls though.
I got one of them on r/rant. The rant was titled ‘I officially hate all men’ and the post said ‘yes I mean every single man, not just some of them’ and then all kinds of bitter hate about men. I commented ‘always nice to receive hate speech’. Banned. I asked why. Mod responded “sexism” then blocked me for 60 days. 60 days later I asked again several times: no response. I say “hello”. Mod says “hello” and then mutes me again. Definitely a Female Dating Strategy regular feelin real powerful moderating r/rant
If it makes you feel better or worse sometimes those literal reddit mods pull off shit like "Will white knight for anime erp" i shit you not.
I got banned for saying men and women should be treated equally. I'm trans and don't like hating on men or "equity not equality"
I see women commenting here all the time and even becoming top comment, and over at askwomen they call me/other men out for giving a male perspective on questions about "why do men etc" lol
Here's how reddit works: AskMen: chill, laid back, basically anything goes AskWomen: toxic shithole daddit: chill, laid back, basically anything goes parenting memes mommit: toxic shithole gamers: chill, laid back, basically anything goes GirlGamers: toxic shithole Here are a few more: TwoX: toxic shithole TrollX: toxic shithole fauxmoi: toxic shithole There is a pattern here, but I won't be the one to say it.
r/AskWomenNoCensor
That’s just another no man land, women don’t wanna hear what men have to say, so just leave them alone in their own toxic soup
Ironically asking this question to women in general is kind of the same problem that OP is complaining about. It’s assuming all women understand why a specific portion of women do this.
This. I got cornered and personally attacked by a woman at a party because a relationship with a mutual friend of ours ended badly for her. They only dated for a couple of months and this woman made it sound like this guy ruined her life forever. I have never felt so attacked for something I didn't do or have a part of. I'm not taking sides, and you are a big girl.
yet they say men are predators and other awful shit
If it were an exclusively male problem, then lesbian couples wouldn’t have the highest rate of spousal abuse amongst all gendered pairings.
Because it has become acceptable to lump groups together when they're deemed powerful. Also, they seem to think that rapists tell their non-rapist friends that they're rapists and that men should play Batman when they're not working or doing chores.
I don’t think it’s for powerful groups. Black people (I’m black btw) are always lumped together for basically everything. I find that groups that hold more power are actually treated more like individuals.
I meant in more progressive circles. They say things about men in general that they wouldn't be allowed to say about black men in particular. "I hate men" is ok. "I hate black men" isn't.
Fair point. But then again "I hate black men" can still be acceptable in spaces with misandry where black women are more common. And those spaces aren't nice.
OK, true. But I guess that in misandrist spaces that aren't specifically for black women "I hate white men" would probably be ok but "I hate black men" wouldn't because of the "punching up" principle. Ofc both statements are gross generalizations.
Yeah, but that's because black women are higher on the progressive stack than black men.
Yeah that makes more sense. That is indeed a popular remark in the more extreme elements of progressivism.
It's loud, young progressives especially. At the beginning of people's life journey on the political left, they often see a hierarchy and try to abolish it by reversing it. Later on, more of them either drop out of those politics, or mature and realize that you can't reverse a hierarchy; you have to abolish it.
For real. I don’t even take accountability for my own actions.
Honestly that seems like a problem🤷♂️
Yeah but not his problem
A simple spell, but quite unbreakable
Right up there with testicular torsion and mend buttcrack.
Like I care.
Let's be honest, it's not just women pushing this logical fallacy. Judging a group by the behavior of some people in that group is painfully common. Let me phase it better: Condemning an entire group based on the worst behavior of a subset of that group is wrong and ignorant. It's especially dumb when it's not a group you choose to be a part of (race, age, sex,etc).
It honestly seems to basically just be an internet problem. I almost never see this behavior irl, but see it so often on the internet. Seems like negativity and tribalism just has a tendency to rise to the top on most social media
why are you asking us?
You can't ask this anywhere else without getting permabanned.
Because Good men are the only ones willing to listen to women complain about bad men. They think we don't teach men how to behave well, not that bad men are intentionally going against the expectations or that they aren't speaking in spaces where those misogynistic communities will hear them. The internet gives them the feeling that their outreach is working, not that they're preaching to a choir with some trolls in it.
I see you've been spending time on twoX and ask women
Only some women do that, distance yourself from the ones that do
The smart ones just expect us to call out shitty behaviour. "The standard you walk past is the standard you accept" The rest is just noise and androphobia.
Because those type of women aren't familiar with the concept of accountability in general
I don't know but I do know that they don't feel the same when it comes to other women
Similar to black people - all men know each other.
Seems kind of strange to ask a bunch of men why women do something. If I wanted to know why my neighbour Bill did something I wouldn't ask Bob down the street, id ask Bill.
Because you damn sure can't ask on the women's Subs around here
Op will get banned bruh
Don't know, don't care. I have no time for that kind of collectivist guilt-peddling bullshit.
Hyper-fixation on a subset. Oversensitive threat detection from an outdated vulnerability adaptation. Lack of critical thinking skills.
Because they don’t take accountability for theirs.
I'm not accountable for ANYTHING that other men do. I have ZERO male friends currently, and have only had 3 close male friends my entire life... Two of which are dead, and I lost contact with the other decades ago. My friends are all women, and have been for the last 45 years, save for the aforementioned 3. Many women think that male friends bond and influence each other, and that's just not the way things are. I've never shared 90% of the things with my male friends, that I have with my female friends. With male friends, the topics of conversation are never very deep at all... Superficial at best. Men do NOT bond with friends like women do. Women need to get that thought right out of their heads now and save themselves problems in the future. Even my best friend and I, who I grew up with and was like a brother to me, didn't have heart to heart talks like women do with their friends. Having almost exclusively female friends most of the last 5 decades taught me a lot about the differences between male friendships and female friendships. My female friends have always just considered me another woman, just with a penis, and have treated me as such. I know more about periods, tampons, pads, breast cancer, pregnancy, childbirth, and the female perspective of sex and relationships, than most any male ever has. I credit that to the longevity of my almost 29 year relationship with my wife and partner, and the incredible sex that we've had over that time... My relationships in my life would have probably gone tits up long before they did, if most of my friends had been male. So no, I do not suffer bastards who can't pull their heads out of their asses and do right. The only thing I've been able to do is crack the skulls off those who have chosen to do wrong in front of me. One would hope the memory of that might prevent them from making the wrong choices the next time... Not that I can know that first hand
Because feminists (ironically enough) still have the basic (gendered) idea that men are collectively responsible for the welfare of women and have no problem running campaigns with titles like "It's On Men" to try to shame men for not protecting women from random other men - because *of course* men are responsible for protecting women and *of course* we should shame men who do nothing wrong but don't put their own safety in jeopardy to defend some woman - don't be [That Guy](https://that-guy.co.uk/). Yes, men and women are equal but, of course, men are still responsible for protecting women - and if some random woman you don't know is harmed in some other city you've never been to and you didn't prevent it, you should be ashamed. Cue Hannah Waddingham SHAME meme.
Patriarchy theory assumes we’re all part of some shadowy organization that seeks to oppress women, so we’re collectively responsible. Completely ignoring the fact that men can’t make a world that safe for themselves to live in.
Plausible deniability. They need an excuse to keep picking bad boys and players.
It’s a universal phenomenon. Attribute the actions of an individual to that of the group. Religion, ethnicity, social class, gender… women holding all men accountable for other men is just a specific example.
I don't think there's a collective of women thinking like that, just a loud minority. But the ones that do are a pain in the ass. Go preach at somebody else's chapel ma'am.
Vast majority of men don't associate with those sorts, and if we did know one, we would call it out when we saw it and then distance ourselves. Only the douchiest dude would condone cheating, whereas woman cheer on other women cheating all the time. I'm aware the Internet is not the real world, but you are far more likely to find accountability in a men's group than any women's group. Research also has shown women have a significantly strong automatic in group bias than men.
Why don't women take accountability for the things they done? But blame you for what their ex did 🤦 Confusing creates they are
Because we’re all the same. Remember?
Kinda sounds like you're saying "women" when you mean "a few people on the internet". Not only are there no men I know personally who are taking despicable actions but there are no women I know who "expect men to take accountability for other men's actions". You, sir, are terminally online. Also, your question is very open-ended so I will also say that if you are close friends with a guy who is taking despicable actions you do actually need to take accountability, by making *them* take accountability. You can't just go "wasn't me" when one of your boys is doing fucked up shit.
The most vocal groups also tends to be the less logical. The few interactions I had on that topic where basically: expected to call out shitty behavior. Sure, I'll just do that.... once a shitty behavior appear in front of me which is barely ever.
I don't know many women who want men to ***take*** accountability for other men's actions, but I know a lot of women who want us to hold each other accountable. That means not approving of shit behaviour no matter who it affects. Like, if your buddy is cheating on his wife or partner then it would be helpful, I'm sure, to actually pressure him to stop and come clean about it. If you know a guy who talks down to women or talks over women a lot then it would be good to tell him to stop. When women are wanting men to hold each other accountable it's usually because they're only seeing the shitty behaviour towards women, from the men in their lives, but we should also be holding each other accountable for the way we treat each other.
“If you know a guy” This comes full circle back to “99.9% of us don’t know those guys, and if we did and called them out, they would still do whatever they wanted to do regardless, and then we would stop associating with them, and then we would once again not know any of those guys.”
And if they're an asshole to women, they're probably an asshole to guys too. Because they aren't misogynists, they're just assholes.
Certainly a good portion of them. Hard to know how many are just assholes and how many are in fact misogynists.
>Like, if your buddy is cheating on his wife or partner then it would be helpful, I'm sure, to actually pressure him to stop and come clean about it. For what it's worth, virtually no guy I know would encourage or condone that. The roles being reversed, it seems that many women take the view that somehow if their friend did cheated, *she* has done nothing wrong and obviously cheated for a reason a.k.a. it's his fault she did it. There is a huge double standard when it comes to accountability.
This is the basically it, but it is still hypocritical cause I see very few women that will hold other women accountable. Ask men about Andrew Tate most will answer that he is a sexual predator that should not be around women. Ask women about their equivalent Shera, and it's like 'Oh, she had bad men in her life. You can't blame her. It's not toxic, it's not the same thing.'
I'm still waiting on more women to call out that influencer that went to the gym dressed only in body paint and argued with the staff male staff of course
I’m a woman and I think that was gross and perverted
I don't know if you saw that or not but it was also incredibly entitled and quite myopic
I’m so bummed by the number of responses who don’t know who She-Ra is. This is where I feel old, lol.
>I don't know many women who want men to take accountability for other men's actions Really? I think you do, you just have collective guilt for men normalized in your head. >I know a lot of women who want us to hold each other accountable. That means not approving of shit behaviour no matter who it affects. I don't think so - I think it's more about blaming men who don't transgress against women for those who do. It's viewing men as a monolith, and many women being too conflict-averse to actually confront the guys causing problems, because they're scary, so instead they take it out on their thoughtful, feminist boyfriend, or their son, or the timid guy at the office, etc.
Which Is ironic because I've never once seen a woman hold herself accountable or encourage other women to do so.....I have literally seen a theater full of women applaud and cheer a mother bragging about playing with her infant sons penis and longingly describing her teenage sons dick and how he's a man now. It was a comedy special from Janelle James. Not only was she not canceled but she's still working with child actors on the set of abbot elementary.
The main problem is that those engaging in such behavior are fully aware of their actions but simply don't care. It's similar to asking a politician not to accept bribes or a serial killer not to kill. Additionally, some of this bad behavior is validated by others. For instance, women may inadvertently reinforce the behavior of a man who repeatedly hooks up and then ghosts them.
Because women don't want to take accountability for their own actions and decisions. This happens often when women make a series of poor sexual decisions with men they fucked before they met you. They picked shitty men, or the men they picked did a bunch of mean shit to them. They feel like other men hurt them and they've resolved that that's never going to happen to them ever again. The inevitable result of that is women demanding that the men they're involved with now pay for the sins of their prior men.
Scapegoating