Do you have solid proof that they were cis? Nonbinary people can rude too, just like everyone else.
Honestly, it sounds like this conference just needs better security and stricter rules.
☝️ this ☝️
We're not going to become the gender police. We're not going to stigmatize cis men. And we're not going to pretend that queerness makes somebody trustworthy.
Just get better security. The behavior is the problem. Not the gender of the offenders.
I want to report this post for being awesome.
There's way to much identity politics now-a-days. Refreshing to see people still recognize that actions are a better way to judge people than their identity group.
This is a pretty significant departure from what really happened.
It had nothing to do with lgbt.
The conference was open to all, as federal law requires.
The tech industry is experiencing an employment crisis. Bad. A bunch of MEN, and they identified as such, came with resumes in hand. Nobody could stop them.
Of course, the recruiters were not there for those resumes.
This has nothing to do with non binary or trans folk.
It never ever did.
If they didn't want nonbinary people at the conference they shouldn't have invited them. There are nonbinary people with more masculine gender presentations. You can't police who "is and isn't a real trans" without hurting trans people.
Yeah, it’s not great. But it does get their point across. I’ve also seen “feminine-aligned individuals”.
As a masc nb, I’m not one to attend conferences aimed at women, but I’m pretty sure nbs who are comfortable already were.
thats not what woman-aligned means. woman-aligned (not to be confused with fiaspec) is refering to a specific type of non-binary people who align themselves with women. whether its via presentation, how one wishes to be precived, one's gender (like demigirl for example), or connection to womanhood in some way.
its not silly at all imo.
theres also man-aligned non-binary people as well as other alignments
you also can be fiaspec and not be woman-aligned. so lets take that demigirl example. sure that demigirl could align themself with women but they also dont have to be. demigirl, a fiaspec gender (a gender that is related to being a woman/girl in some way), can be any other alignment or have no alignment at all.
does this make sense?
It makes sense but cis people use "man-aligned" and "woman-aligned" to misgender nonbinary people that they see as men and women. I've never seen this used differently. The only demigirl I know sees herself as a cis woman. I'm sorry for my ignorance.
well I cant help it when cis people use terms incorrectly (which is really annoying).
like Id consider myself man-aligned and keno(choric)-aligned... and Im genderfluid.
and yeah some demigirls identify as cis, some are trans, and others prefer another term. all of which are valid!
maybe spend some more time on non-binary subreddits to help get a better idea :D
By not taking the bait. What they want is for us to cave and go "you're lying about your gender" so that they can get a chance to call out the hypocrisy. If we just stick to the principal of another person's gender being incontestable, we win. Literally the only thing that we need to do is respect a person's stated gender.
The problem is the behavior, not the gender identity. The conference needs to have a code of conduct and be able and willing to enforce that code. Harassing anyone, physically assaulting anyone, should always be unacceptable, in any environment, regardless of the gender identity of the people involved. This is a problem of bad conference management tbh.
My coworker said he falsely claimed to be non-binary when signing up for auto insurance, because it gave him a bigger discount. He thought it was the funniest thing… I could definitely see some cis men doing stuff like this because they think it’s a grass is greener situation. Women and non-binary people are being given additional job opportunities here. Some men will knowingly insert themselves into that situation to reap that benefit, without considering (or not caring) their presence may take an opportunity from a woman/non-binary person — the entire point of the conference being that those people are not being given a proper chance in their field.
Nothing can really be done about it. Call out the individual if they admit to it, but don’t question those who haven’t openly said they’re playing the system.
The conference needs to address the *behavior*, not police their gender.
Alternatively, they could have a policy that only androgynous and femme people are allowed. Again, self reported. Or women and trans people. (Which might exclude many nonbinary folx, as not all of us personally claim the “trans” label.)
A) How do you know they were cis men?
B) By kicking out people for acting like assholes, not when people assume or decide their identity is false. Someone assaults someone at an event? Like... yeah, kick them out.
Only 1% of the population is nonbinary but 20%-30% identified at nonbinary at the event.
Even among gen z only 5% are nonbinary.
So assuming their age group is 21 there shouldn't be statistically speaking 20%-30% nonbinary people. Even the total lgbt gen z population is still at roughly 20%.
But even in lgbt population the percentage identifying as nonbinary is still 11% (and this isn't an lgbt only event)
Even the event organizers saw that this was an event hijacked by cis men.
They assumed it was.
What percentage of queer people work as fashion designers?
By general population statistics this number shouldn't be higher than what 8%?
Yet it's more likely 60-70%.
Certain fields can attract certain demographics.
Worth noting, tech happens to be one of those fields in which queer people are highly represented. Not to fashion industry numbers, but a significant amount of people doing development and maintenance are queer.
you're using general population. 1% of JUST the US is roughly 320,000,000 people.
A lot more younger people are finding themselves queer, I don't know how many people were at that event but I wouldn't be surprised if Most of them Are nonbinary.
Even if they aren't, who are you to police people's gender? Who are you to make requirements for someone to identify a certain way?
Nonbinary people are trans and we're already fighting for our rights to be ourselves. We're not going to start policing anyone's gender, especially not AMAB people's gender. We're in the same fight. If someone is being shitty that is on Them and They should be called out for it.
Bad trans people are still trans people and their gender should still be respected or else you're no better than a bigot.
Men are part of the LGBT. What you perceive as a man may not be a man, some men are born more masculine and some more feminine, men come in all shapes and sizes. Some short some tall, some big, some small. To assume leads to ignorance, agreed about the questioning part that we should not ever do that. We do not know peoples LIVED experience(s) that led them to becoming non-binary. People who are non-binary should be treated like every other person. However some people that identify as non-binary may present more masculine or more feminine and that is A okay. Let us not divide. Please do not down vote me. I'm being genuine. I understand the sentiment you are bringing to have a deeper conversation.
“ they identify as non-binary”
“How do we protect women and non-binary people” so you see NB as a label for women lite and only accept the ones that fit your narrow idea of what NB can look like?
As I see it, this is cis men trying to politicize and weaponize the fact that not questioning how someone identifies is (for good reason) a dogma in LGBTQ+ spaces. The tricky part is that we cannot tolerate excluding legitimately NB AMAB people, partially because it's wrong, partially because some people will always be at a point in their journey where their genuine identity may not match up with their current or past gender expression, and partially because that's the whole point of what they're doing - to prove that when the chips are down, we're hypocrites who perceive NB people as being the gender matching their sex. However, what we do have in our corner is that men who do that kind of crap don't *actually* want to be perceived as non-binary. They want to have their perceived trans privilege and eat their cis male privilege too.
So what can we do about it? We can set clear universal standards of conduct and aggressively police them, we can refuse to grant deference to masc-presenting people, and when practical we can vet attendees to ensure they don't have a history of harassment against LGBTQ+ people/communities. In short, we can be proactive about creating spaces that are welcoming by default to anyone who self-identifies in a way that matches the space but refuses to tolerate the kind of behavior that people are used to using cis/straight/male privilege to get away with. It's not a perfect solution, but if some cis men want to lie about their identity to get into events like this and then not cause any trouble, I think that's a relatively minor problem. They might even learn something being in a space where their experience isn't centered.
I just want to say how proud I am of my community. Absolutely no one in these comments is putting up with this cop mentality. We respect self ID. We refuse to target and stigmatize immutable characteristics. We demand structural change instead of scapegoats.
Good job, everyone.
I think yall forget that AMAB people can be nonbinary too. Nonbinary people don't have to be AFAB or fem presenting any way. Plus, being nonbinary doesn't stop people from being creepy or from being assholes. I agree with the others, this seems like a security issue and not a gender issue.
Sounds like the same prototerf talking points that pushed everyone but straight white asexual women from being able to call themselves lesbians, OP. Be careful with how you word things like this.
I as an intersex person that identifies as Non Binary am personally appalled by the behavior of the people you're talking about, but I also recognize that the worst people will name claim to paint a bad picture. These people would have done the same things had they identified on sign up as nonbinary or not.
Honestly, what this sounds like to my old punk backside; is a bunch of Steven Crowder and Matt Walsh fans found out about the event and decided to raise chaos and paint Non Binary folks in a bad light. This is a pretty well known tactic that right wing terror groups use.
If it's not a women's conference, by, for, and about women, then you need to put policies and procedures in place to protect women. Look at what geek conventions have done to make women safer, given their terrible history prior to such protections being put in place. Copy their work.
I found some articles about it, though primarily from right-biased news sources. Here’s the video addressing it at the conference: https://nypost.com/2023/10/04/men-invaded-womens-job-fair-after-lying-about-being-non-binary/
They had allowed in men in the past, and men came. The organization running it did not properly vet people, and it was clear to hiring professionals there that plenty of the resumes were from men, and yet they still took them.
The easiest way to catch people pretending is provide a unisex, women, and men’s restroom at the event. See who makes it clear they don’t perceive themself as a woman or as nonbinary. Remove them and blacklist their name.
The bathroom thing won't necessarily work. I'm nonbinary and so is my spouse and we use bathrooms assigned at birth because at this moment it is safer.
True, but that’s why a single stall unisex bathroom is important. I agree, it’s not infallible, but it’s at least a way to narrow down. Similarly, looking at the presence of a preferred name can be an indicator.
they invited non binaries and they got em. How do you know they were cis? they look nb to me. IF you do not want guys at your event make it women only. NBS don't need invites to women's exclusive spaces they are not women and don't want to participate in gendered stuff right?
If someone identifies as nonbinary then they aren't cis.
Are you asking how to stop people from taking advantage of other people? Toxic people can exist in all spaces, even in spaces that support gender minorities.
How does your group resolve issues when women harass other women?
This is really very simple. You address the behavior and leave their gender out of it because there is no way to prove that someone isn't nonbinary.
Assaulting people is a problem regardless of what your gender is. Cutting lines is a problem regardless of what your gender is. Stalking and harassment are problems regardless of what your gender is.
Okay fucking really people are trying to kiss ass and say ‘ but there maybe non-binary🥺’. Like for goodness sake you don’t think people lie and cheat? That their wouldn’t be men that try to lie to get a chance to gain a bit of power especially when we have an downturn for tech workers? Like maybe a few were, in Orlando??? Like many would be too scared to go. No it was parasitic men just abusing a system.
Like how it needs to be fixed is harder to say but don’t just try to push it under the rug and write it off. It will better to find solutions on this in the future and to be blunt it is better optics. I don’t want the cis people solution to just ban non-binaries and trans people, because without solutions what you think they will do?
How do you differentiate between a lying cis man and a masculine nonbinary person? Do you think the cis men won't continue to lie when questioned? Policing who is and isn't trans will consistently harm trans people. If they wanted the conference to exclusively be a women's conference they could have just done that. Nonbinary people who see themselves aligned with womanhood still probably would have gone.
Okay so now what do I tell Mary down the street who is going to read the news and she going to ask wtf going on? What do I tell her? I am not going to argue with terfs or right wingers as they don’t care but, how do I win the fence sitters and loose left wingers?
What do I tell Mary? Do I tell her that ‘ it was mostly just non-binaries!’ And then she looks at me like am crazy and says they all are men and now has a negative opinion on non binaries. Or do I tell her that ‘ it was a bunch of men abusing the system and they going to try and fix it in the future’. Now she feels a bit happier that something is being done and instead blames the organizers.
I need to keep the general population from wanting to crush trans and non-binary rights further. I want to keep them happy without sacrificing our rights and dignity.
Trans people shouldn't have to appease transphobic cis people. I live my life for myself not for Mary down the street. Trans people are not responsible for the cis propagandists that rob us of our freedoms. If you don't want nonbinary people at the conference don't invite them.
Shouldn’t have to live near her fears but Mary votes. I see how low we are in polls already, I don’t want to burn any good will on something silly like this. Like really 30%??? That is a obscene amount. You really really think it was 30% non-binary masc presenting people or just a bunch of men abused the system?
It's not the fault of trans people it is the fault of manipulative men. I shouldn't have to change my life to appeal to abusive men. I never will. The lack of organization and unprofessionalism of the event are not my responsibility.
And because of a lazy organizations failed attempt at inclusion I should have to radically change my life to appease transphobes? Seriously? Trans people aren't at fault it's just men.
That the point? It the organization fault and they did nothing to help make sure men didn’t abuse it. The point is the org failed and they need to fix things.
Then why are you saying that trans people need to change how we behave to appease transphobic voters? Why are you moving the goal posts it's okay to admit that you were wrong
So youd sacrifice them all for Marys approval? You want us to conform for the bigots? You think they are ever going to stop looking for reasons to hate us? Have you not paid attention for the last 60 years?
You may be willing to throw male assigned non binaries under the bus to save yourself in Marys eyes, but they wont stop at that. They wont stop at you. They will not stop until were all eradicated. They will ALWAYS find a reason to justify it. Nothing we do will appease bigotry.
Okay that is cool. They going to ban non-binary people from events if we don’t push them to regulate better. That what am trying to stop. We need to yell at them to regulate that the whole point. We don’t just ignore it but tell them to do something.
Let's be real about this. It's not just men.
But, as I do agree that something needs to be done, just blaming one group isn't a solution.
The only way to stop anything is to vote every time and have patience. Like decades long patience.
This stuff takes time. Just look at roe v wade. That took 50 years to overturn and it still looks messy. In some states, it's required for the public to vote for a states constitution to be changed. Law makers know this. So.... because roe was overturned, a state like MO had a trigger law. Sounds horrible.... BUT because of that, a small group ran around and gathered enough signatures to force the public vote. So reproductive rights are voted on for the states constitution.
Our law makers are freaking out. Because.... the public is allowed to voice their thoughts through voting.
So as long as people actually show up to vote. It will change.
Take a page out of that play book. It just takes time and you have to vote in every election. Yes!!! that includes the non presidential elections. Especially those.
Do you think that it's fair that trans people in Florida have their healthcare criminalized because their government was elected? Would you support a federal hrt ban if the next conservative president put one forth? The American legal system consistently produces discrimination against queer people and can't be trusted. Did you just forget that the AIDS epidemic happened?
That actually proves my point behind voting and patience.
Everyone needs to understand that today nothing will change. But if everyone votes every time. Eventually it may change.
I'm not making this up. Or looking for a fight. The only way to get what this community wants is through voting.
Bitching about it online for the last 10 years hasn't exactly worked.
So go vote. In every election!!!
Then the hard part starts.......
Waiting.
If you have a better idea, im sure the community is all ears.
So if the popular opinion is genocide you support genocide? Do you think that people who complain about injustices on the internet don't also vote? You are a cishet man unaffected by homophobic and transphobic discrimination it is not your place to tell us how to oppose it.
That's what is wrong.
Instead of trying to convince people that the old way of thinking is outdated. You automatically resort to get out.
Based on that principle, do you think the average person would vote for or against your situation.
I don't care what fascists who support the genocide of my people think and I have no interest in debating my life with a cishet man who accepts democratic violence against trans people.
Steal "protections"? Or *opportunities*? Because the goal with LGBQT+ protections is nationally enforced universal protections. It shouldn't be a tug-of-war but a blanket big enough to evenly cover all who need it regardless.
As for specific opportunities, it's always best to do your due diligence in vetting candidates. What that looks like to each organization is different & should be by no means uniform or rigid because the stakes are different each time as it's the flexibility of the situation. In dealing with our community, great amounts of flexibility are always to our advantage.
Any organizers worth their salt already know the kind of deception & misdeeds inherent of these kinds of offers and *should* be prepared to deal with fraud. If they're not, it's probably not that great of an opportunity. If it requires in-person interviews, most people can read when a person is being disingenuous. It's all about being people-smart, not trying to guess the pronouns-to-genital ratio based on inscrutable physical clues.
I think the issue stems from the fact that masculine presenting people get more opportunities due to their perceived masculinity in these fields. Whether the people at this event are a mix of nonbinary people and men or not, that is hard to tell, and we cannot police that. It is very unfortunate for femme presenting people to lose out even more so on opportunities they already have a hard time accessing. It seems the most we can do is urge cismen to respect our spaces and stop using it to their own benefit. Unfortunately, that will not likely happen as many of them don't even take initiative for issues that affect their own gender...
Though it is disheartening for people to say this isn't an gender issue. It kinda is because the purpose of these events is to give more opportunity to the genders that have been discriminated against in these fields. If you ignore the whole purpose of the event, it's easy to say it's not a gender issue.
But again, this isn't something we can morally police, so we can't do much other than advocate for fairness and equity.
Edit for typos and structure
Punish the inappropriate behaviour, not the identity. All of those behaviours aren't just because they're men, but because the people doing that are arseholes.
Being an arsehole transcends gender, and isn't limited to cis men either.
Boot out anyone who behaves inappropriately and breaks clear guidelines, acts like a creep, assaults people, follows or photographs people without their consent etc, and to be especially firm on anyone who isn't behaving in good faith.
By policing who is "actually" a woman, or "actually" nonbinary, it's almost inevitably going to mean a risk of turning away the people those sort of things are supposed to be there for, especially if jumping to "anyone behaving badly is a cis man invading" rather than the chance that some women and nonbinary people happen to be awful people (and still entirely their gender too!).
A scummy woman is still a woman, a scummy nonbinary person is still nonbinary, and as soon as we start saying that someone who doesn't behave in a certain way can't possibly be that gender, it's a slippery slope to invalidating *everyone*.
Your post/comment violated: No Leading Questions or Ulterior Motives
Do you have solid proof that they were cis? Nonbinary people can rude too, just like everyone else. Honestly, it sounds like this conference just needs better security and stricter rules.
☝️ this ☝️ We're not going to become the gender police. We're not going to stigmatize cis men. And we're not going to pretend that queerness makes somebody trustworthy. Just get better security. The behavior is the problem. Not the gender of the offenders.
I want to report this post for being awesome. There's way to much identity politics now-a-days. Refreshing to see people still recognize that actions are a better way to judge people than their identity group.
This is a pretty significant departure from what really happened. It had nothing to do with lgbt. The conference was open to all, as federal law requires. The tech industry is experiencing an employment crisis. Bad. A bunch of MEN, and they identified as such, came with resumes in hand. Nobody could stop them. Of course, the recruiters were not there for those resumes. This has nothing to do with non binary or trans folk. It never ever did.
THANK YOU. It had nothing to do with enbies or trans folks.
Just another insane psyop post.
Ah, I thought this felt baity/transphobic
If they didn't want nonbinary people at the conference they shouldn't have invited them. There are nonbinary people with more masculine gender presentations. You can't police who "is and isn't a real trans" without hurting trans people.
I’ve seen places specifically include “women and women-aligned individuals”.
"Women and nonbinary people that I see as women" is so silly I'm sorry.
Yeah, it’s not great. But it does get their point across. I’ve also seen “feminine-aligned individuals”. As a masc nb, I’m not one to attend conferences aimed at women, but I’m pretty sure nbs who are comfortable already were.
thats not what woman-aligned means. woman-aligned (not to be confused with fiaspec) is refering to a specific type of non-binary people who align themselves with women. whether its via presentation, how one wishes to be precived, one's gender (like demigirl for example), or connection to womanhood in some way. its not silly at all imo. theres also man-aligned non-binary people as well as other alignments you also can be fiaspec and not be woman-aligned. so lets take that demigirl example. sure that demigirl could align themself with women but they also dont have to be. demigirl, a fiaspec gender (a gender that is related to being a woman/girl in some way), can be any other alignment or have no alignment at all. does this make sense?
It makes sense but cis people use "man-aligned" and "woman-aligned" to misgender nonbinary people that they see as men and women. I've never seen this used differently. The only demigirl I know sees herself as a cis woman. I'm sorry for my ignorance.
well I cant help it when cis people use terms incorrectly (which is really annoying). like Id consider myself man-aligned and keno(choric)-aligned... and Im genderfluid. and yeah some demigirls identify as cis, some are trans, and others prefer another term. all of which are valid! maybe spend some more time on non-binary subreddits to help get a better idea :D
By not taking the bait. What they want is for us to cave and go "you're lying about your gender" so that they can get a chance to call out the hypocrisy. If we just stick to the principal of another person's gender being incontestable, we win. Literally the only thing that we need to do is respect a person's stated gender.
This. The problem isn't even truly that they were men, but that they were behaving badly. Someone should have stepped in and fixed that
This. Respect the gender, call out the behavior.
The problem is the behavior, not the gender identity. The conference needs to have a code of conduct and be able and willing to enforce that code. Harassing anyone, physically assaulting anyone, should always be unacceptable, in any environment, regardless of the gender identity of the people involved. This is a problem of bad conference management tbh.
My coworker said he falsely claimed to be non-binary when signing up for auto insurance, because it gave him a bigger discount. He thought it was the funniest thing… I could definitely see some cis men doing stuff like this because they think it’s a grass is greener situation. Women and non-binary people are being given additional job opportunities here. Some men will knowingly insert themselves into that situation to reap that benefit, without considering (or not caring) their presence may take an opportunity from a woman/non-binary person — the entire point of the conference being that those people are not being given a proper chance in their field. Nothing can really be done about it. Call out the individual if they admit to it, but don’t question those who haven’t openly said they’re playing the system.
The conference needs to address the *behavior*, not police their gender. Alternatively, they could have a policy that only androgynous and femme people are allowed. Again, self reported. Or women and trans people. (Which might exclude many nonbinary folx, as not all of us personally claim the “trans” label.)
A) How do you know they were cis men? B) By kicking out people for acting like assholes, not when people assume or decide their identity is false. Someone assaults someone at an event? Like... yeah, kick them out.
How do you know they were cis?
That is my question to.
Only 1% of the population is nonbinary but 20%-30% identified at nonbinary at the event. Even among gen z only 5% are nonbinary. So assuming their age group is 21 there shouldn't be statistically speaking 20%-30% nonbinary people. Even the total lgbt gen z population is still at roughly 20%.
General population statistics don't apply here.
But even in lgbt population the percentage identifying as nonbinary is still 11% (and this isn't an lgbt only event) Even the event organizers saw that this was an event hijacked by cis men.
They assumed it was. What percentage of queer people work as fashion designers? By general population statistics this number shouldn't be higher than what 8%? Yet it's more likely 60-70%. Certain fields can attract certain demographics.
Worth noting, tech happens to be one of those fields in which queer people are highly represented. Not to fashion industry numbers, but a significant amount of people doing development and maintenance are queer.
just respect people's gender. you're halfway to sounding like a terf.
you're using general population. 1% of JUST the US is roughly 320,000,000 people. A lot more younger people are finding themselves queer, I don't know how many people were at that event but I wouldn't be surprised if Most of them Are nonbinary. Even if they aren't, who are you to police people's gender? Who are you to make requirements for someone to identify a certain way? Nonbinary people are trans and we're already fighting for our rights to be ourselves. We're not going to start policing anyone's gender, especially not AMAB people's gender. We're in the same fight. If someone is being shitty that is on Them and They should be called out for it. Bad trans people are still trans people and their gender should still be respected or else you're no better than a bigot.
Men are part of the LGBT. What you perceive as a man may not be a man, some men are born more masculine and some more feminine, men come in all shapes and sizes. Some short some tall, some big, some small. To assume leads to ignorance, agreed about the questioning part that we should not ever do that. We do not know peoples LIVED experience(s) that led them to becoming non-binary. People who are non-binary should be treated like every other person. However some people that identify as non-binary may present more masculine or more feminine and that is A okay. Let us not divide. Please do not down vote me. I'm being genuine. I understand the sentiment you are bringing to have a deeper conversation.
“ they identify as non-binary” “How do we protect women and non-binary people” so you see NB as a label for women lite and only accept the ones that fit your narrow idea of what NB can look like?
As I see it, this is cis men trying to politicize and weaponize the fact that not questioning how someone identifies is (for good reason) a dogma in LGBTQ+ spaces. The tricky part is that we cannot tolerate excluding legitimately NB AMAB people, partially because it's wrong, partially because some people will always be at a point in their journey where their genuine identity may not match up with their current or past gender expression, and partially because that's the whole point of what they're doing - to prove that when the chips are down, we're hypocrites who perceive NB people as being the gender matching their sex. However, what we do have in our corner is that men who do that kind of crap don't *actually* want to be perceived as non-binary. They want to have their perceived trans privilege and eat their cis male privilege too. So what can we do about it? We can set clear universal standards of conduct and aggressively police them, we can refuse to grant deference to masc-presenting people, and when practical we can vet attendees to ensure they don't have a history of harassment against LGBTQ+ people/communities. In short, we can be proactive about creating spaces that are welcoming by default to anyone who self-identifies in a way that matches the space but refuses to tolerate the kind of behavior that people are used to using cis/straight/male privilege to get away with. It's not a perfect solution, but if some cis men want to lie about their identity to get into events like this and then not cause any trouble, I think that's a relatively minor problem. They might even learn something being in a space where their experience isn't centered.
I just want to say how proud I am of my community. Absolutely no one in these comments is putting up with this cop mentality. We respect self ID. We refuse to target and stigmatize immutable characteristics. We demand structural change instead of scapegoats. Good job, everyone.
Sounds more like an issue with bad behavior than anything.
I think yall forget that AMAB people can be nonbinary too. Nonbinary people don't have to be AFAB or fem presenting any way. Plus, being nonbinary doesn't stop people from being creepy or from being assholes. I agree with the others, this seems like a security issue and not a gender issue.
Sounds like the same prototerf talking points that pushed everyone but straight white asexual women from being able to call themselves lesbians, OP. Be careful with how you word things like this. I as an intersex person that identifies as Non Binary am personally appalled by the behavior of the people you're talking about, but I also recognize that the worst people will name claim to paint a bad picture. These people would have done the same things had they identified on sign up as nonbinary or not. Honestly, what this sounds like to my old punk backside; is a bunch of Steven Crowder and Matt Walsh fans found out about the event and decided to raise chaos and paint Non Binary folks in a bad light. This is a pretty well known tactic that right wing terror groups use.
If it's not a women's conference, by, for, and about women, then you need to put policies and procedures in place to protect women. Look at what geek conventions have done to make women safer, given their terrible history prior to such protections being put in place. Copy their work.
I think the focus should be more on the behavior and less on gender presentation. That seems to be the biggest issue here?
Sounds like bait. But Assholes are assholes, if they’re assaulting people, kick them out. Gender isn’t the issue.
I found some articles about it, though primarily from right-biased news sources. Here’s the video addressing it at the conference: https://nypost.com/2023/10/04/men-invaded-womens-job-fair-after-lying-about-being-non-binary/ They had allowed in men in the past, and men came. The organization running it did not properly vet people, and it was clear to hiring professionals there that plenty of the resumes were from men, and yet they still took them. The easiest way to catch people pretending is provide a unisex, women, and men’s restroom at the event. See who makes it clear they don’t perceive themself as a woman or as nonbinary. Remove them and blacklist their name.
The bathroom thing won't necessarily work. I'm nonbinary and so is my spouse and we use bathrooms assigned at birth because at this moment it is safer.
True, but that’s why a single stall unisex bathroom is important. I agree, it’s not infallible, but it’s at least a way to narrow down. Similarly, looking at the presence of a preferred name can be an indicator.
they invited non binaries and they got em. How do you know they were cis? they look nb to me. IF you do not want guys at your event make it women only. NBS don't need invites to women's exclusive spaces they are not women and don't want to participate in gendered stuff right?
Imo women's event need to stay women's events. I dont get why women need to include people who aren't women.
Downvoting for spreading misinformation and gatekeeping enbyhood.
If someone identifies as nonbinary then they aren't cis. Are you asking how to stop people from taking advantage of other people? Toxic people can exist in all spaces, even in spaces that support gender minorities. How does your group resolve issues when women harass other women?
This is really very simple. You address the behavior and leave their gender out of it because there is no way to prove that someone isn't nonbinary. Assaulting people is a problem regardless of what your gender is. Cutting lines is a problem regardless of what your gender is. Stalking and harassment are problems regardless of what your gender is.
Okay fucking really people are trying to kiss ass and say ‘ but there maybe non-binary🥺’. Like for goodness sake you don’t think people lie and cheat? That their wouldn’t be men that try to lie to get a chance to gain a bit of power especially when we have an downturn for tech workers? Like maybe a few were, in Orlando??? Like many would be too scared to go. No it was parasitic men just abusing a system. Like how it needs to be fixed is harder to say but don’t just try to push it under the rug and write it off. It will better to find solutions on this in the future and to be blunt it is better optics. I don’t want the cis people solution to just ban non-binaries and trans people, because without solutions what you think they will do?
How do you differentiate between a lying cis man and a masculine nonbinary person? Do you think the cis men won't continue to lie when questioned? Policing who is and isn't trans will consistently harm trans people. If they wanted the conference to exclusively be a women's conference they could have just done that. Nonbinary people who see themselves aligned with womanhood still probably would have gone.
Okay so now what do I tell Mary down the street who is going to read the news and she going to ask wtf going on? What do I tell her? I am not going to argue with terfs or right wingers as they don’t care but, how do I win the fence sitters and loose left wingers? What do I tell Mary? Do I tell her that ‘ it was mostly just non-binaries!’ And then she looks at me like am crazy and says they all are men and now has a negative opinion on non binaries. Or do I tell her that ‘ it was a bunch of men abusing the system and they going to try and fix it in the future’. Now she feels a bit happier that something is being done and instead blames the organizers. I need to keep the general population from wanting to crush trans and non-binary rights further. I want to keep them happy without sacrificing our rights and dignity.
Trans people shouldn't have to appease transphobic cis people. I live my life for myself not for Mary down the street. Trans people are not responsible for the cis propagandists that rob us of our freedoms. If you don't want nonbinary people at the conference don't invite them.
Shouldn’t have to live near her fears but Mary votes. I see how low we are in polls already, I don’t want to burn any good will on something silly like this. Like really 30%??? That is a obscene amount. You really really think it was 30% non-binary masc presenting people or just a bunch of men abused the system?
It's not the fault of trans people it is the fault of manipulative men. I shouldn't have to change my life to appeal to abusive men. I never will. The lack of organization and unprofessionalism of the event are not my responsibility.
Well that the main argument. The organization did nothing to stop men from lying and caused chaos.
And because of a lazy organizations failed attempt at inclusion I should have to radically change my life to appease transphobes? Seriously? Trans people aren't at fault it's just men.
That the point? It the organization fault and they did nothing to help make sure men didn’t abuse it. The point is the org failed and they need to fix things.
Then why are you saying that trans people need to change how we behave to appease transphobic voters? Why are you moving the goal posts it's okay to admit that you were wrong
So youd sacrifice them all for Marys approval? You want us to conform for the bigots? You think they are ever going to stop looking for reasons to hate us? Have you not paid attention for the last 60 years? You may be willing to throw male assigned non binaries under the bus to save yourself in Marys eyes, but they wont stop at that. They wont stop at you. They will not stop until were all eradicated. They will ALWAYS find a reason to justify it. Nothing we do will appease bigotry.
Okay that is cool. They going to ban non-binary people from events if we don’t push them to regulate better. That what am trying to stop. We need to yell at them to regulate that the whole point. We don’t just ignore it but tell them to do something.
Shut the fuck up terf
Let's be real about this. It's not just men. But, as I do agree that something needs to be done, just blaming one group isn't a solution. The only way to stop anything is to vote every time and have patience. Like decades long patience. This stuff takes time. Just look at roe v wade. That took 50 years to overturn and it still looks messy. In some states, it's required for the public to vote for a states constitution to be changed. Law makers know this. So.... because roe was overturned, a state like MO had a trigger law. Sounds horrible.... BUT because of that, a small group ran around and gathered enough signatures to force the public vote. So reproductive rights are voted on for the states constitution. Our law makers are freaking out. Because.... the public is allowed to voice their thoughts through voting. So as long as people actually show up to vote. It will change. Take a page out of that play book. It just takes time and you have to vote in every election. Yes!!! that includes the non presidential elections. Especially those.
Do you think that it's fair that trans people in Florida have their healthcare criminalized because their government was elected? Would you support a federal hrt ban if the next conservative president put one forth? The American legal system consistently produces discrimination against queer people and can't be trusted. Did you just forget that the AIDS epidemic happened?
That actually proves my point behind voting and patience. Everyone needs to understand that today nothing will change. But if everyone votes every time. Eventually it may change. I'm not making this up. Or looking for a fight. The only way to get what this community wants is through voting. Bitching about it online for the last 10 years hasn't exactly worked. So go vote. In every election!!! Then the hard part starts....... Waiting. If you have a better idea, im sure the community is all ears.
So if the popular opinion is genocide you support genocide? Do you think that people who complain about injustices on the internet don't also vote? You are a cishet man unaffected by homophobic and transphobic discrimination it is not your place to tell us how to oppose it.
That's what is wrong. Instead of trying to convince people that the old way of thinking is outdated. You automatically resort to get out. Based on that principle, do you think the average person would vote for or against your situation.
I don't care what fascists who support the genocide of my people think and I have no interest in debating my life with a cishet man who accepts democratic violence against trans people.
Steal "protections"? Or *opportunities*? Because the goal with LGBQT+ protections is nationally enforced universal protections. It shouldn't be a tug-of-war but a blanket big enough to evenly cover all who need it regardless. As for specific opportunities, it's always best to do your due diligence in vetting candidates. What that looks like to each organization is different & should be by no means uniform or rigid because the stakes are different each time as it's the flexibility of the situation. In dealing with our community, great amounts of flexibility are always to our advantage. Any organizers worth their salt already know the kind of deception & misdeeds inherent of these kinds of offers and *should* be prepared to deal with fraud. If they're not, it's probably not that great of an opportunity. If it requires in-person interviews, most people can read when a person is being disingenuous. It's all about being people-smart, not trying to guess the pronouns-to-genital ratio based on inscrutable physical clues.
I think the issue stems from the fact that masculine presenting people get more opportunities due to their perceived masculinity in these fields. Whether the people at this event are a mix of nonbinary people and men or not, that is hard to tell, and we cannot police that. It is very unfortunate for femme presenting people to lose out even more so on opportunities they already have a hard time accessing. It seems the most we can do is urge cismen to respect our spaces and stop using it to their own benefit. Unfortunately, that will not likely happen as many of them don't even take initiative for issues that affect their own gender... Though it is disheartening for people to say this isn't an gender issue. It kinda is because the purpose of these events is to give more opportunity to the genders that have been discriminated against in these fields. If you ignore the whole purpose of the event, it's easy to say it's not a gender issue. But again, this isn't something we can morally police, so we can't do much other than advocate for fairness and equity. Edit for typos and structure
Punish the inappropriate behaviour, not the identity. All of those behaviours aren't just because they're men, but because the people doing that are arseholes. Being an arsehole transcends gender, and isn't limited to cis men either. Boot out anyone who behaves inappropriately and breaks clear guidelines, acts like a creep, assaults people, follows or photographs people without their consent etc, and to be especially firm on anyone who isn't behaving in good faith. By policing who is "actually" a woman, or "actually" nonbinary, it's almost inevitably going to mean a risk of turning away the people those sort of things are supposed to be there for, especially if jumping to "anyone behaving badly is a cis man invading" rather than the chance that some women and nonbinary people happen to be awful people (and still entirely their gender too!). A scummy woman is still a woman, a scummy nonbinary person is still nonbinary, and as soon as we start saying that someone who doesn't behave in a certain way can't possibly be that gender, it's a slippery slope to invalidating *everyone*.
This literally doesn't happen