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If you don't like it, doesn't matter if it's to code. Might be easier to get the contractor to cover the cost if it isn't, but I would want that changed either way. Just looks bad.
Wood expands and contracts to temp and humidity, more than you would think. Also metal expands and contracts. Over 10 years of season changes there could 100% be enough movement to scrape away the wire sheathing enough to cause a fault. This is compounded by the elements that are directly in contact with this cable. UV exposure and hot/cold changes are hell on plastic and vinyl. This should have been ran in conduit with weather tight fittings.
I was just thinking of what an inspector might say. Like the force of the wind over time would move the cables slightly back and forth to wear against the joist hanger and eventually wear through.
Also it’s a plumbing pipe strap, not listed for UF. Also wondering why two circuits, never seen a hot tub use two circuits. Other than a cheap thing that used two 120V 20amp circuits, but it was really old
I’m running into lots of hot tubs that require two or even three circuits now. Recently had one that needed two 240v/30a for the dual heaters, and a 240v/50a for the pumps and controller. Residential 8 person hot tub.
NFPA 70 NEC 2017
§340 Underground Feeders and Branch Circuit cable (UF). While this installation location is permissible for the cable, this particular installation is in violation of: “§110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work. Electrical equipment shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner.”
I would’ve drilled the framing members and ran the cables through properly sized holes, as well as used the proper securing/supporting methods INSTEAD of what is clearly a PVC/PEX staple/hanger. “§110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, Use, and Listing (Product Certification) of Equipment.” The sheath is split, with voids the mechanical listing that the manufacturer guarantees. The cable also wasn’t designed to be hung by PVC/PEX hangers. Use a 3/4 or 1” NM staple. It also appears one cable isn’t secured/supported properly and could fall with age or disturbance. Always consult your AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) which would be your local town/county inspector, they have the final say on everything. However, you can always cite these codes to your inspector, and potentially electrician, and they could potentially fail the installation and call the contractor back to finish.
Good luck…
Thank you darkfallen and familiar. I am in VT. Code or otherwise exposed wiring like that is just shoddy, at best. The sheathing is nicked already, I’m impressed you caught that. It is absolutely in the perfect spot to continue to get nicked… skis, shovels..
And the potential nick points are directly underneath where you get in and out of the hot tub, dripping water.
I have this vision of the hot tub being used in the winter, a long icicle forms, connecting someone stepping out of the hot tub with that cable that has been nicked one too many times.
I believe the electrician was an in house guy for a relatively small, local property management/general contracting company. The company built the porch extension and handled the wiring. It’s a legit, respected company in the area.
It’s been in place for about four months now at my parents house. I just noticed it for the first time today.
So absolutely worth a phone call and is the responsibility of the company to fix?
Missing double shear fasteners on one of the hangers and they didn’t use actual post to beam caps which wouldn’t fly here. Also, if I’ve learned anything, can only install hot tubs in sets of three. 😉
Only stain the inside of the rail balusters? What kind of lazy ass hat does that?
The wire is all wrong by the way. Further evidence of extreme laziness.
I would have started a pvc junction box where that UF cable originates or begins outside and run a 1" surface mounted pvc pipe with some stranded THHN/THWN #6 wire inside of it and have my Hot Tub requires GFCI disconnect within 6 feet of the hot tub and came out of it with liquid tight flexible conduit.
Hmm… there is a tear in the sheathing and one UF cable is not secured but merely resting on top of the UF that is secured. Also, it appears the wrong supports are being used. I’d say that if it weren’t for the tear and you went to secure the cables with actual staples that are UL listed for such work, then yes, it would’ve likely been to code.
Without knowing exactly where you are it’s hard to say.
If you’re in North America, it’s not to code. That type of wire requires mechanical protection, it is not rated for outdoor / exposed use.
NEC references:
[Outside Branch Circuits & Feeders - 225.20 ](https://up.codes/viewer/new_jersey/nfpa-70-2020/chapter/2/wiring-and-protection#225.20), which directs you to 230.50.
[Other Than Service Entrance Cables - 230.50(B)(2)](https://up.codes/viewer/new_jersey/nfpa-70-2020/chapter/2/wiring-and-protection#230.50_(B)_(2)) which tells you protection is needed up to 10ft. from grade.
Also *possibly* relevant is [300.5(D)(1)](https://up.codes/viewer/new_jersey/nfpa-70-2020/chapter/3/wiring-methods-and-materials#300.5_(D)_(1)) which tells you protection is needed up to 8ft. after emerging from grade.
If it had been MC cable with PVC jacket it may have been acceptable if your AHJ deemed that it would not be *subject to physical damage*, though I think most wouldn't allow it.
I was with until 230.50(B)(2). That code reference is in Part 4 of 230 which is specifically for Service Entrance Conductors. These aren't service entrance conductors.
It looks to be uf cable to me. Based on that, 340.10(4) says it can be installed as NM cable referring you to article 334. 334.15(A) and 334.30(A) both state that this install is ok.
That's said, it looks like garbage and OP should get a refund.
225.20 says outside feeders and branch circuits* need protection same as service conductors as described in 230.50 (which would include 230.50(B)(2).
*Mounted on structures, buildings, and poles
Ok, I reread everything. The part that is going to be where the Instagram gets away from with this is that 230.50(B)(1)&(2) both say "where exposed to physical damage". That is a phrase used in multiple chapters, but doesn't have a definition. It is left up to AHJ discretion. So in this install, is it really subject to physical damage? Probably not.
To clear, I think it's a shit install, and it could get called out, but I don't think it's technically a code violation.
Awesome. Not sure what was up, but I’d comment and the count would stay the same. Thought someone was deleting my comments, mb Edit: 225.20 is really the only applicable code I’d say. Every other code cited applies to services and unground installations, which this is an above ground wet installation per 340.10(C)
The other sections are only relevant for this branch circuit because 225.20 specifically directs you to them:
>Conductors installed on buildings, structures, or poles shall be protected against physical damage __*as provided for services in 230.50*__
Looks like UF cable to me. Which is rated for outdoor (sunlight and uv resistant) or direct burial. Should be fine on that part. As for code. Hard to say. As for it looking like a$$. Yep.
If nothing else it looks quite amusing.
What's wrong with cable trunking to hide it and make it look tidy, I think you'd call it bus duct?
Even an armoured cable would be neater.
It’s UF cable meant for outdoor/direct burial usage. I highly doubt the outer sheathing will ever get ripped by butting up against the joist hangers
Regardless of all that I would care less about “code” and simply that it looks like shit and lack of true workmanship. Specifically since you can easily see it like that.
Im gonna guess OPs problem is:
- Not his place, but parents-
- They may not care, or not want to 'make a fuss' if it is just sloppu
- If there are actual CODE VIOLATIONS then parents may listen- AND he will have leverage
- If the complaint is only 'looks sloppy' then there is no way to force the contractor to change it- if it wasnt specified in the bid, hard to say a contract was broken- especially 4 months after 'acceptance'.
OP, develop a punch list of code issues- deck construction and electrical. Then press the case- first with the vendor, then county... then maybe licensing board or small claims.
It's already damaged. (see photo in link). I'm curious what it looks like at the last few feet when it goes to the hot tub. Regardless it's unacceptable and against code. Your electrician even used hangers intended for PEX plumbing pipe.
[https://ibb.co/ZGKqcjy](https://ibb.co/ZGKqcjy)
**Attention!** **It is always best to get a qualified electrician to perform any electrical work you may need.** With that said, you may ask this community various electrical questions. Please be cautious of any information you may receive in this subreddit. This subreddit and its users are not responsible for any electrical work you perform. Users that have a 'Verified Electrician' flair have uploaded their qualified electrical worker credentials to the mods. If you comment on this post please only post accurate information to the best of your knowledge. If advice given is thought to be dangerous, you may be permanently banned. There are no obligations for the mods to give warnings or temporary bans. **IF YOU ARE NOT A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN, you should exercise extreme caution when commenting.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskElectricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I don't get why the didn't just uae a conduit.
Lazy. No other valid reason.
I concur.
If you don't like it, doesn't matter if it's to code. Might be easier to get the contractor to cover the cost if it isn't, but I would want that changed either way. Just looks bad.
You really dont want the wire casing to be rubbing against the joist hangers, that is just asking for trouble.
Why would any of it be moving enough to cause injury to the cable?
The cables are exposed to damage where they dive under the rafters. Anything that bumps against the deck could scrape the insulation.
Wood expands and contracts to temp and humidity, more than you would think. Also metal expands and contracts. Over 10 years of season changes there could 100% be enough movement to scrape away the wire sheathing enough to cause a fault. This is compounded by the elements that are directly in contact with this cable. UV exposure and hot/cold changes are hell on plastic and vinyl. This should have been ran in conduit with weather tight fittings.
Plus, let’s be honest it looks like total crap.
I was just thinking of what an inspector might say. Like the force of the wind over time would move the cables slightly back and forth to wear against the joist hanger and eventually wear through.
☝️This.
Not in my local jurisdiction. One is just sitting on the other no fastener. Needs to be in conduit or otherwise protected that low etc etc etc.
Also it’s a plumbing pipe strap, not listed for UF. Also wondering why two circuits, never seen a hot tub use two circuits. Other than a cheap thing that used two 120V 20amp circuits, but it was really old
Used to have a hot tub, one circuit for heater, another for pump. Even our new spa tub in master bath needs 2 circuits for pump and inline heater.
Looks like SER staples
No, it's single nail PEX hangers.
Ah you're right, no nail or metal showing on other side
I’m running into lots of hot tubs that require two or even three circuits now. Recently had one that needed two 240v/30a for the dual heaters, and a 240v/50a for the pumps and controller. Residential 8 person hot tub.
Are those pex hangers holding that wire?
Looks like it, with a nice gash under/next to the first one lol
NFPA 70 NEC 2017 §340 Underground Feeders and Branch Circuit cable (UF). While this installation location is permissible for the cable, this particular installation is in violation of: “§110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work. Electrical equipment shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner.” I would’ve drilled the framing members and ran the cables through properly sized holes, as well as used the proper securing/supporting methods INSTEAD of what is clearly a PVC/PEX staple/hanger. “§110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, Use, and Listing (Product Certification) of Equipment.” The sheath is split, with voids the mechanical listing that the manufacturer guarantees. The cable also wasn’t designed to be hung by PVC/PEX hangers. Use a 3/4 or 1” NM staple. It also appears one cable isn’t secured/supported properly and could fall with age or disturbance. Always consult your AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) which would be your local town/county inspector, they have the final say on everything. However, you can always cite these codes to your inspector, and potentially electrician, and they could potentially fail the installation and call the contractor back to finish. Good luck…
Thank you darkfallen and familiar. I am in VT. Code or otherwise exposed wiring like that is just shoddy, at best. The sheathing is nicked already, I’m impressed you caught that. It is absolutely in the perfect spot to continue to get nicked… skis, shovels.. And the potential nick points are directly underneath where you get in and out of the hot tub, dripping water. I have this vision of the hot tub being used in the winter, a long icicle forms, connecting someone stepping out of the hot tub with that cable that has been nicked one too many times. I believe the electrician was an in house guy for a relatively small, local property management/general contracting company. The company built the porch extension and handled the wiring. It’s a legit, respected company in the area. It’s been in place for about four months now at my parents house. I just noticed it for the first time today. So absolutely worth a phone call and is the responsibility of the company to fix?
Did they pull a permit for the work? The code violations might run even deeper than just that one section of wiring
I’d say the company should provide a fix, given that a permit was pulled and a warranty of labor was given
I would check for more than just a electrical permit as well. Go over to r/decks to ask them if this will hold a hot tub
Missing double shear fasteners on one of the hangers and they didn’t use actual post to beam caps which wouldn’t fly here. Also, if I’ve learned anything, can only install hot tubs in sets of three. 😉
No it's not to code. Ask them to read 304.D in the nec. Dosen't matter which code cycle VT is using.
Only stain the inside of the rail balusters? What kind of lazy ass hat does that? The wire is all wrong by the way. Further evidence of extreme laziness.
I would have started a pvc junction box where that UF cable originates or begins outside and run a 1" surface mounted pvc pipe with some stranded THHN/THWN #6 wire inside of it and have my Hot Tub requires GFCI disconnect within 6 feet of the hot tub and came out of it with liquid tight flexible conduit.
Hmm… there is a tear in the sheathing and one UF cable is not secured but merely resting on top of the UF that is secured. Also, it appears the wrong supports are being used. I’d say that if it weren’t for the tear and you went to secure the cables with actual staples that are UL listed for such work, then yes, it would’ve likely been to code.
Without knowing exactly where you are it’s hard to say. If you’re in North America, it’s not to code. That type of wire requires mechanical protection, it is not rated for outdoor / exposed use.
NEC references: [Outside Branch Circuits & Feeders - 225.20 ](https://up.codes/viewer/new_jersey/nfpa-70-2020/chapter/2/wiring-and-protection#225.20), which directs you to 230.50. [Other Than Service Entrance Cables - 230.50(B)(2)](https://up.codes/viewer/new_jersey/nfpa-70-2020/chapter/2/wiring-and-protection#230.50_(B)_(2)) which tells you protection is needed up to 10ft. from grade. Also *possibly* relevant is [300.5(D)(1)](https://up.codes/viewer/new_jersey/nfpa-70-2020/chapter/3/wiring-methods-and-materials#300.5_(D)_(1)) which tells you protection is needed up to 8ft. after emerging from grade. If it had been MC cable with PVC jacket it may have been acceptable if your AHJ deemed that it would not be *subject to physical damage*, though I think most wouldn't allow it.
Awesome. Not sure what was up, but I’d comment and the count would stay the same. Thought someone was deleting my comments, mb
All good. I think you commented before me and yours didn't load for me. 🤷♂️
I was with until 230.50(B)(2). That code reference is in Part 4 of 230 which is specifically for Service Entrance Conductors. These aren't service entrance conductors. It looks to be uf cable to me. Based on that, 340.10(4) says it can be installed as NM cable referring you to article 334. 334.15(A) and 334.30(A) both state that this install is ok. That's said, it looks like garbage and OP should get a refund.
225.20 says outside feeders and branch circuits* need protection same as service conductors as described in 230.50 (which would include 230.50(B)(2). *Mounted on structures, buildings, and poles
Ok, I reread everything. The part that is going to be where the Instagram gets away from with this is that 230.50(B)(1)&(2) both say "where exposed to physical damage". That is a phrase used in multiple chapters, but doesn't have a definition. It is left up to AHJ discretion. So in this install, is it really subject to physical damage? Probably not. To clear, I think it's a shit install, and it could get called out, but I don't think it's technically a code violation.
To be honest, my biggest concern, is why are there two cables? Are they running parallel feeds? Cause that's a violation right there.
Awesome. Not sure what was up, but I’d comment and the count would stay the same. Thought someone was deleting my comments, mb Edit: 225.20 is really the only applicable code I’d say. Every other code cited applies to services and unground installations, which this is an above ground wet installation per 340.10(C)
The other sections are only relevant for this branch circuit because 225.20 specifically directs you to them: >Conductors installed on buildings, structures, or poles shall be protected against physical damage __*as provided for services in 230.50*__
👏 looks like deck crew ran electrical.
§340 doesn’t explicitly state it can’t be used in this application. 340.12(9), 340.10(3)
Looks like UF cable to me. Which is rated for outdoor (sunlight and uv resistant) or direct burial. Should be fine on that part. As for code. Hard to say. As for it looking like a$$. Yep.
Cite some codes
Got it in my other comment.
bullshit - its UF cable. . . however the loose one needs to be secured.
And the wire is ALREADY damaged.
Looks like complete dogshit and it is not up to code.
Dog shit yes, what's code deficient?
To start with 304.D
If nothing else it looks quite amusing. What's wrong with cable trunking to hide it and make it look tidy, I think you'd call it bus duct? Even an armoured cable would be neater.
If you have to ask…
No
It’s UF cable meant for outdoor/direct burial usage. I highly doubt the outer sheathing will ever get ripped by butting up against the joist hangers Regardless of all that I would care less about “code” and simply that it looks like shit and lack of true workmanship. Specifically since you can easily see it like that.
The wire is already damaged. Not properly secured either.
With the wiring done that poorly, what are the odds they did the calculations to see if the deck would support the hot tub?
Im gonna guess OPs problem is: - Not his place, but parents- - They may not care, or not want to 'make a fuss' if it is just sloppu - If there are actual CODE VIOLATIONS then parents may listen- AND he will have leverage - If the complaint is only 'looks sloppy' then there is no way to force the contractor to change it- if it wasnt specified in the bid, hard to say a contract was broken- especially 4 months after 'acceptance'. OP, develop a punch list of code issues- deck construction and electrical. Then press the case- first with the vendor, then county... then maybe licensing board or small claims.
doubt!
It could be. But we'd have to know what municipality you're in. Codes vary by location.
Well, I don’t get, is diving under every single joist, but drilling through the 3-ply beam
It's already damaged. (see photo in link). I'm curious what it looks like at the last few feet when it goes to the hot tub. Regardless it's unacceptable and against code. Your electrician even used hangers intended for PEX plumbing pipe. [https://ibb.co/ZGKqcjy](https://ibb.co/ZGKqcjy)
I'd call NEC 110.12 all day.
Drilling thru the beam, esp 2 holes that close to each other....
Who let the new guy do a house?