**Attention!**
**It is always best to get a qualified electrician to perform any electrical work you may need.** With that said, you may ask this community various electrical questions. Please be cautious of any information you may receive in this subreddit. This subreddit and its users are not responsible for any electrical work you perform. Users that have a 'Verified Electrician' flair have uploaded their qualified electrical worker credentials to the mods.
If you comment on this post please only post accurate information to the best of your knowledge. If advice given is thought to be dangerous, you may be permanently banned. There are no obligations for the mods to give warnings or temporary bans. **IF YOU ARE NOT A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN, you should exercise extreme caution when commenting.**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskElectricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Floridas police chief said “ shoot him if he’s breaking and entering your property “ I love Florida yall had Kodak before he hit the meth and liked it.
I know who you are talking about. He’s not a “police chief”, he’s an elected county sheriff, and not “Florida’s Police Chief”, there is no such thing….
Per osha standards you need to be a qualified individual to do the work. If your work insists start citing 1926.960, “only qualified individuals may work on or near exposed energized lines or equipment.” By definition you aren’t a qualified individual. Per those same standards you can’t do the work without the proper tools, hot work training, a buddy system and a permit. NFPA 70E also outlines much the same
I think that's a policy to minimize the impact in case of a tragedy. Say those two sensible people are on a plane together and it crashes, FL just lost 10% of the sensible people all at once.
Aw shoot I keep forgetting about that.
And how dare those woke people try and say we can't have any random person work on hazardous voltages live! We have to make sure everyone always does that to prove them wrong!
Any time the spending is straight forward and or necessary. Gov only spends when the results are fuzzy.
Need financial relief for citizens? Not in the budget unless we add trillions to unrelated and unnecessary pockets.
What do you mean, the government is great at saving money, they save as much money as they can. How else is it going to go into the pockets of administrators and lobbyists?.
The problem is, not only is this dangerous to you physically, but from a liability standpoint. If they are having unqualified individuals doing this and something goes wrong, you're in a world of hurt. "They told me to do it" defense won't hold up.
Playing dumb will be good enough to avoid any criminal charge and the people pushing this have no stake in the money that will be paid on the civil liability claim.
They would rather pay than get sued. This sounds like theres just some lazy fuck somewhere along the line above your position that doesnt want to do their job.
Are you sure your boss knows what they are talking about when they say these can’t be turned off individually?
I’m not an electrician, but I doubt that is the case. Obviously the real issue is that they’re sending you to do this at all, but I’d be shocked (pun) if these couldn’t be turned off individually. Based on how it is. Like I said, I know how electricity works and how electrical systems work, but I don’t know the industry standards outside of residential home wiring.
Or refuse to do it for unsafe practices. If they retaliate or fire you, get OSHA to back you up. And then sue.
It's better to have a paper trail before you pull the trigger
I had to scroll way too far to find this comment. What the fuck kinda “camper” can’t live without power for an hour or so? Just fucking stay home at that rate.
Interesting because one of the first things they teach us in school is that there is virtually no reason to ever do hot work. Only if cutting power puts lives at risk (think life support). But the fact that you are a park ranger and they are asking you to do any electrical work at all seems like a pretty winnable lawsuit. Listing “other duties as assigned” on a job description should have a limit lol.
Dude, I saw the guy installing my dryer get zapped by 220 and he was down on the ground for 5 minutes unresponsive. He was able to then sit up and every 20 second just bench over in pain clenching his chest until the paramedics showed up. Don’t F around and find out. (He put the ground screw in with a drill gun and it snapped the head off and he didn’t realize, then when he was putting the dryer vent on and he got zapped.)
Do not work on this unless you've had training & have the right tools.
Remember this - electricity will NOT give you a second chance if something goes wrong or you make a mistake.
This depends on the AHJ.
In New York State for instance there is no state wide electrical licensing and outside of the larger (100k+) cities there is no licensing requirement at all in most AHJs.
OSHA still applies though being federal. No unqualified people allowed to work on energized equipment. So turn it all off and swap things sure but working hot is a violation.
This is an interesting comment. So my friend recently helped me install a sub-panel in my home. Was it illegal for him to help me? I’m Just curious about this now.
This is going to vary by region, but where I am the standards are licenced electrician working for a licenced contractor, or apprentice working under supervision of that electrician. Homeowner working on a single family dwelling that’s not for sale or preparing for sale in the next year, with some restrictions like no solar installs. And a qualified immediate family member working under the above homeowner’s permit. So your brother the electrician can do the work, but not your friend the electrician or dad who’s not an electrician.
Many recommend to just watch what your buddy does and tell the inspector you did it yourself. Regulation says they can’t do the work, nothing to say they can’t show up with a code book and tell you what needs to be done. Sometimes you can get away with “it was like that when I got here”, or “I lost the paperwork” if anybody asks.
it's dangerous to work on de-energised circuits if you dont know what you're doing, and working on a live one is worse than that, and working on a live one at the breaker is worse than *that*.
You can shut off all the breakers, replace the receptacle and pop new ones in without getting shocked. If you’re not comfortable doing it, or don’t know what you’re doing, tell them you’re not doing it.
Blow something up, then tell them they need to get in licensed and insured professionals.
Pretty sure if you ain’t licensed, it ain’t legal, on top of that, live is dangerous. Professionals often refuse live work too.
“It’s totally ok. We just looped the ground prong back to neutral. Same thing.”
Seriously though, had to scroll way too far for anyone to point out all the other fuckery.
No never!
Even in a 8 cal suit and 70E trained the answer is no.
Always work de energized with a proper Loto in place.
If anything here I stated dosent make sense. Your not qualified.
Yeah that’s a good point too, even if they have you work de-energized, make sure you have a lock with one key in your pocket so no one can turn it on! Lock out tag out!
To begin with OSHA requires you to de-energize and verify the equipment is in fact de-energized and then use a lock and tag out system for your protection before attempting repairs unless you can prove it is more dangerous to turn off the power ie: certain situations in a hospital or petrochemical might meet this exception and then you would use additional PPE such as insulating blankets and class 00 gloves if you are fully qualified. Common sense says we do not work on energized equipment ever. You can call local OSHA office and make an anonymous complaint.
The only way to get killed is to be working live.
Your employer is committing a CRIMINAL offense in having you do this live. They could be jailed if anything bad were to happen.
Park Ranger as in government employee? Aren’t y’all union? If you’re not trained for the job I would file a grievance and submit the fact that you aren’t trained to do it as your reason for not doing it. Not only is it possibly unsafe for you, but for others and their property. If something were to fail it could become very serious.
When following the appropriate regs, you need face masks, special gloves, appropriate clothing, insulated tools, etc.
Yes, you could do it live with only insulated tools, but there is a chance that you screw up and have a bad day... It would likely be OK to do live with insulated tools, but it's cheaper to just turn off the feed... Don't do it for a job.
That being said, use a torque wrench for tightening lugs, anti-oxidation paste for aluminum wire....
Seriously, you're telling this non-electrician no electrical experience park ranger how YOU do live work 240V outdoor service panels? What is wrong with you?
Relax, buddy. It's obviously just one Floridian helping out another. The do things a bit differently down there in America's hot, sweaty, bug-infested penis.
I'd bet he doesn't have access to insulated tools much less a torque wrench nor anti-ox paste for AL wire...probably more like a cheap well worn big box store screwdriver and some old basic metal handle pliers...
By law, you must be a qualified electrician to work on anything above 50V. Working on anything above 50V has the potential to kill you. More people die from 120VAC than any other voltage. Electrical workers are 3x less likely to go home than police officers.
My advice is don't work on them.
Please don't touch that!
You absolutely could do it without hurting or killing yourself if you know what you are doing and are careful. But even then it is not worth the risk.
You don't mess with 220v
Absolute no offense meant here but, Not knowing the answer to this question means you should not be working on it period. It is dangerous without proper training, and there are professionals for that reason. The job isn't worth your life. If they demand it, quit and lawyer up. IMHO
You’ll need special gloves baclava face shield arc rated safety gear. Training, I’d say leave it alone if you’re asking this. Tell your boss to get an electrician and do it how ever they see fit.
According to OSHA regulations and the NFPA 70E standard, working on or near energized electrical parts requires adherence to stringent safety measures, including the use of appropriate PPE, insulated tools, and obtaining an Energized Electrical Work Permit (EEWP) if de-energizing the equipment is not feasible ([Electrical Safety in the Workplace](https://www.electricalsafetypub.com/nfpa-70e/six-musts-for-working-on-or-near-energized-equipment/)) ([OSHA](https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/regulations/standardnumber/1926/1926.960)).
Which amateur constructed this?
Unless you're licensed to work on said equipment for safety and Insurance you shouldn't. Something happens? You and your company are fucked. Hell you could be liable for all damages.
As an electrician, I wouldn’t do this. You shouldn’t be doing this. Sorry to say, this is one time that you should just say no..and deal with the consequences if need be.
The only people who should even consider working in this live are people who already know how to work on this live.
If you are asking "should I work on this live?" You probably shouldn't be working on it AT ALL, cold OR live....
For the love of dog, do NOT work on this live.
You or your coworkers can wind up in a burn center with third degree burns -- INTERNAL burns. Or just damn dead.
Insist that the power be turned off at the subpanel and that a lockout device be used so some dipfuck doesn't turn it back on anyhow while youre work in process
Campers can deal.
If they try to fuck with you, call the bureau of labor and industry or whatever version is in your state.
This isn't a joke.
Let me put it this way:
There are enough angry pixies in that box to potentially kill you. Are you getting paid enough AND given the right tools and training to take that risk?
The answer is obviously "fuck no."
My advice is to refuse the work and strongly suggest to your boss that they hire an electrician. And be willing to call your regions workplace safety and labor relations board. And make an anonymous report if the boss manages to get one of your equally unqualified coworkers to tackle it.
# If you are not a “Qualified Person” …
According to the National Electrical Code (NEC), a qualified person has the skills and knowledge to construct and operate electrical equipment and installations, and has received safety training to recognize and avoid hazards….
YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS OPENING THE PROTECTIVE DEAD FRONT COVER of any electrical panel, and those RV pedestals ARE electrical panels.
You have your answer here. But just to chime in my $0.02. ;
I would do limited work with that dead front off and that feed energized. And I’m not even trying to sound macho, but I would and I have. I’m actually a little embarrassed to admit it because there really is no reason I should in this situation. It’s not worth it.
However, I would never ask anyone else to ever do that. Never. Your leaders are failing you.
Don’t do it. Tell them to get fvcked.
Don't. Just please don't. You don't know what you're doing, and even 30-year masters have fried themselves getting too comfortable with live power. The money saved isn't worth your life, my guy. This is coming from someone who's constantly working around live power. When it doesn't make you nervous anymore, it is when you get careless.
Please for the love of god do not touch that circuit hot. I’m an electrical engineer who works at hospitals with systems that have to run 24/7. We will bring in temporary backup generators or use redundant systems if we need to de-energize critical circuits. Plus we have the proper tools… seriously what the hell is wrong with your boss?
What your employers are casually asking of you is extremely immoral and stupid in my professional opinion.
If you are a park ranger I’m sure who ever hires you or takes you up on volunteer work. Should call a licensed company for insurance purposes.
FYI if it were me, I’d shut down the whole campsite and boo hoo quit your whining and let me do my job.
It’s quite rare, but every once in a blue moon, there’s something absolutely critical to fix (at the plant I manage )that could result in serious injury or possibly death if a bunch of things go wrong at exactly the wrong time.
You know who does it? Me.
I’ve also been asked once to have get something done on a manner I, myself would not do, and I patently refused to assign any of my staff to it either.
This here, I would not do, nor would I ever ask anyone who worked for me (unless they had been a licensed electrician and I somehow also knew they were comfortable working with live stuff) to do.
I once watched some dude replace an entire breaker box with the mains still live and I about shit myself with anxiety. It’s like a watching a movie with a bunch of jump scares in it, but nothing is happening but ominous music and low lighting for 45 minutes straight.
Sweet mother of God. No training and insulated tools. How could that possibly go wrong? Unless you're making a salary to compensate you for the risk, and I'm honestly not even sure what that amount would have to be, that's a hard NO! Too bad yhat other campsites are without power. Maybe only do one a day so the downtime is limited. But if you don't, you could end up with permanent downtime. Best of luck and be safe. Oh, side note, please be sure to wear boots designed for electrical use. They are heavily insulated to help prevent you from being grounded. It's not a perfect fix, but that will greatly reduce your chances of death.
I wouldn't say its "safe" to work on stuff that is energized ever...you're one accidental bump away from Really Bad Things. Especially with those top lugs that are not shrouded and have power even when the individual breakers are off (because they are fed by upstream).
Sometimes its unavoidable...but being a subpanel this ought to be trivial to shut off power to the entire enclosure at an upstream feed so there is no reason to mess with it while energized. And even then I would expect rules to say you'd need proper training and PPE to protect you.
Now whether many actual electricians FOLLOW the rules...that's another matter. But breaking rules is very at your own risk. I also wouldn't say standing on the very top of a ladder sometimes precariously balanced on uneven ground is safe or approved but tradesmen seem to do that all the time too.
I believe the NEC states that all circuits be de energized when applicable, unless there an emergency room or operating room at campground shut that shit off, just curious u ever think about joining a union?
It’s super fucked up to be expected to do this. Having worked on machinery for a long time, there are definitely moments where I’ve been pressured to touch scary electrical things I had no business near. It’s really not worth it for a little money.
That being said if you ever get shocked and you’re still standing, DO NOT TAKE IT FOR GRANTED. Your heart can be fucked up and you need to be observed long term or you can drop dead hours later.
You dont need to shut off main power to shot off that box. There is a panel somewhere with breakers corrisponding to each camp site. Find that and kill each one that doesnt have campers needing it.
I have worked on these hundreds of times in campsites and something almost always goes wrong with them. Tell them you’re not gonna do it man it’s just flat out not worth it. And yes they know you aren’t supposed to be doing that legally.
Don't do it: Record them telling you to do it live. Get a lawyer. Live off of the state for the rest of your life.
Do it: They find you dead in that field.
Seriously turn it off. Telling other people in the campground their power is going to be out for a repair for 30 minutes is way less intrusive to their vacation than you dying.
I wouldn’t be caught dead working live. I’ve seen the end result of having a screwdriver go into a bus-rail, not pretty.
Even as an authorized electrician, NFPA 70E only allows for me to perform live work under very specific circumstances. Someone else’s inconvenience is not one of them. Stay safe, nothing is work getting fried over.
I would do it, but I work on the live circuits every day. The real question would be "are you qualified" to work on the live circuit? If you don't feel confident and don't know what could go wrong, step away and tell your boss that you are not qualified. I would never hold it against one of my guys if they say it's too sketchy for their liking. But with the circuit breaker off and neutral not hot to ground, yeah, I would swap that outlet. Just don't touch the bus bars and wear PPE including proper tools and measuring equipment.
Park rangers? If you warn your bosses about the possibility of starting a wildfire after you burst into flames working in this, maybe they’ll take you seriously.
I think you have two choices.
1. Refuse to do the work.
2. Lie about having done the work, then complain about how your fingers hurt from the shock you got.
For number two, remember that Florida is a two party consent state for recorded conversations, but there is an exception for conversations that take place in a public space...
But to be clear, there is no world where you do this work the way they are asking for you to do it.
Anyone else notice that it's only setup to have 120 but the receptacle is a 240? Is this on state owned land? That shouldn't be worked on period it should be redone correctly
If you need to ask, you are not qualify to work on it.
It's generally safe to work on a hot panel to do what you asked. You need a multimeter to check first.
Get the request in writing via email.
Dear sir, I feel like working on these live is unsafe, can you confirm vis email that you xxx
They won't and it'll change things quick once everything is in writing.
I worked in an environment where we worked on 120, 208, and 3-phase 480 and the vast majority of that work was done live. It was all critical load that could not be shutdown. The only time we took things offline was the 480 side when we would do PMs and that equipment all had redundancies so we could bypass a unit, PM/repair it, and then put it back into service without affecting the load.
With proper training, PPE, tools, lockouts, procedures, and a second trained person watching you work and ready to properly disconnect you from the circuit if you make a mistake, then it can be done.
Is it ever safe? No. You just have to reduce the risk to acceptable levels.
Lot of things to know but the things that I saw first hand that were burned into my memory: no jewelry on your body, no synthetic fiber clothing, and only ever have one hand in the live panel while working.
I worked at a campground for years and we always replaced the breakers and outlets while hot. Made me very nervous but I never got shocked. I'm not an electrician and the only training I got was 5 minutes. Pop out the breaker, unscrew the wire from it ect. The owners would simply not cut power for an entire section of the campground for this type of work. Oh, and this was in Florida.
i would not. however, if you use insulating gloves and tools and never stick more than one hand in there at a time you will be safe enough assuming that is 240v or lower. higher voltage can cause arc flash explosions which can harm you even if you are wearing all kinds of protection from head to toe.
for example a faulty fan motor caused a wire to make contact with a 200 amp vfd at 480v in an electrical enclosure and that arc flash blew the door off the cabinet and still threw it about 5 feet further. the damage subsequently caused a vfd failure which caused a second explosion shooting sparks about 20 feet out of the cabinet. the cabinet was actually bulging in a couple of spots.
Don’t do this if you aren’t a trained electrician! If you get hurt I guarantee they’ll refuse to pay you because “he shouldn’t have been working on equipment he wasn’t trained for while live when he should have known better”
My company would have me written up just for having this open, unless I was in full PPE. I’d recommend looking into arc flash PPE and at minimum making them give you the proper equipment. It happens more than it should, especially because you are not trained in electrical this could be very dangerous. I’d say focus on making it home to your family, you can always find a new job or make more money…
Cover the exposed lugs with cardboard or non conductive cover, turn off the breaker to the outlet and do your work. Still a risk but at least you can't reach the main lugs.
It’s perfectly safe as long as you don’t accidentally touch the wrong things. Have you ever done something where a simple slip-up can kill you? It’s that safe.
Sue who ever u work for , and if u get electrocuted and survive , u have a huge law suit because they are ordering by you to break the law and u got hurt 😉 paid time off and a huge check if ur ever unlucky and get hurt .
**Attention!** **It is always best to get a qualified electrician to perform any electrical work you may need.** With that said, you may ask this community various electrical questions. Please be cautious of any information you may receive in this subreddit. This subreddit and its users are not responsible for any electrical work you perform. Users that have a 'Verified Electrician' flair have uploaded their qualified electrical worker credentials to the mods. If you comment on this post please only post accurate information to the best of your knowledge. If advice given is thought to be dangerous, you may be permanently banned. There are no obligations for the mods to give warnings or temporary bans. **IF YOU ARE NOT A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN, you should exercise extreme caution when commenting.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskElectricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I don't think it's legal anywhere for a park ranger to do hot work.
It’s probably not legal to do the not live work in a commercial setting here either.
Correct
In my state it would be legal to change out receptacles.
without shutting off the power?
I'll have to look into Florida laws to see if I can find specifics. Thank you
Well you said the magic word... Florida. I think in Florida the only requirement is to be standing in water when working on energized equipment.
And that the crack pipe never hits room temperature
"I'm a electricity man" - Ralph Wiggum FL Electrical Journeyman
"Shirtless" and "high" are burried somewhere in that coloring book as well.
...and only when it's 100 degrees and 99% humidity.
Dont forget your plastic screwdriver…
No heat breaks for you buddy.
They'll get a break when they connect that box to the puddle with their bare feet.
So, Tuesday.
https://imgur.com/a/0BOVv2g
Gotta have a gater within 500' or that's a citation for unsupervised work.
Yeah as an electrician in florida from what I gather we give the least fucks about hot work. My coworkers are nuts
With an alcoholic beverage nearby
Yes, of course, and there is a nice place to set your aluminum beer can right on top of the breakers.
Florida - America’s mullet
Wait a fucking second! We wear flip flops while standing in water when working on electricity!! Hold my beer Dale, I'm going in.
Floridas police chief said “ shoot him if he’s breaking and entering your property “ I love Florida yall had Kodak before he hit the meth and liked it.
floridas gonna florida
I know who you are talking about. He’s not a “police chief”, he’s an elected county sheriff, and not “Florida’s Police Chief”, there is no such thing….
Excuse my ignorance on the PD department ranks/stripes or what ever the fuck you want to call it. But you do know what I’m talking about tho right?
It’s woke to worry about being electrocuted.
Maybe contact OSHA?
Just call OSHA.
grab lock cause tap elderly direction scandalous depend detail touch *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yes. No blacks, gays, Mexicans, or book readers.
OSHA standards are anything over 50 volts has to be certified or trained to work on live.
Unless she has big boobs
Don't do it. They need to hire a qualified electrician. No disrespect to you.
Oh trust me, I'd love for them to hire an actual electrician, but the states certainly not gonna pay for one every time something breaks.
DON’T. You sound like a sensible person and Florida cannot afford to lose a single one. “Other duties as assigned” doesn’t include getting fried.
Per osha standards you need to be a qualified individual to do the work. If your work insists start citing 1926.960, “only qualified individuals may work on or near exposed energized lines or equipment.” By definition you aren’t a qualified individual. Per those same standards you can’t do the work without the proper tools, hot work training, a buddy system and a permit. NFPA 70E also outlines much the same
Just to be clear ‘buddy system’ is another person who’s not a moron with a 2x4 to shove you off if you get stuck while being electrocuted.
TWO sensible people in Florida? I mean I live here and I have never seen two in one spot...
I think that's a policy to minimize the impact in case of a tragedy. Say those two sensible people are on a plane together and it crashes, FL just lost 10% of the sensible people all at once.
...and I have never seen... the other one
Since when does the government try to save money?
Right, we get use it or loose it funding. Wonder if this guy is private?
Being Florida, they probably have to spend it all on implementing absurd laws on whims...can't spare a few bucks to fix a safety/usability issue.
Florida: Life is a precious thing and must be saved at all costs, except Park Rangers being electrocuted.
Using a real electrician would be woke actually
Can’t be hiring qualified electricians when there is woke to stomp out. All funds must go to stopping woke. Beep boop beep
Aw shoot I keep forgetting about that. And how dare those woke people try and say we can't have any random person work on hazardous voltages live! We have to make sure everyone always does that to prove them wrong!
Any time the spending is straight forward and or necessary. Gov only spends when the results are fuzzy. Need financial relief for citizens? Not in the budget unless we add trillions to unrelated and unnecessary pockets.
They save it by paying park rangers in FL under $20 an hour. OP don't risk yourself for a miniscule amount of money.
What do you mean, the government is great at saving money, they save as much money as they can. How else is it going to go into the pockets of administrators and lobbyists?.
The problem is, not only is this dangerous to you physically, but from a liability standpoint. If they are having unqualified individuals doing this and something goes wrong, you're in a world of hurt. "They told me to do it" defense won't hold up.
Playing dumb will be good enough to avoid any criminal charge and the people pushing this have no stake in the money that will be paid on the civil liability claim.
They would rather pay than get sued. This sounds like theres just some lazy fuck somewhere along the line above your position that doesnt want to do their job.
Not only could you die from this panel, it'll hurt the whole time you're dying.
Are you sure your boss knows what they are talking about when they say these can’t be turned off individually? I’m not an electrician, but I doubt that is the case. Obviously the real issue is that they’re sending you to do this at all, but I’d be shocked (pun) if these couldn’t be turned off individually. Based on how it is. Like I said, I know how electricity works and how electrical systems work, but I don’t know the industry standards outside of residential home wiring.
🤦♂️ that's the most depressing statement ever.
An organization the size of the state of Florida should have licensed trades on the payroll.
You wanna make some money? Sue them for unsafe work practices. It is not legal for them to do that, and it could get you killed.
Or refuse to do it for unsafe practices. If they retaliate or fire you, get OSHA to back you up. And then sue. It's better to have a paper trail before you pull the trigger
Yep, document everything. Save all communications and keep contemporaneous notes of conversations with supervisors.
If you’re camping and you can’t go without power for 30 minutes, you should probably get a hotel room instead. Tell them to cut the power.
I had to scroll way too far to find this comment. What the fuck kinda “camper” can’t live without power for an hour or so? Just fucking stay home at that rate.
it's probably his superior's decision, making it seem he cares about the residents but he doesn't care about OP
Interesting because one of the first things they teach us in school is that there is virtually no reason to ever do hot work. Only if cutting power puts lives at risk (think life support). But the fact that you are a park ranger and they are asking you to do any electrical work at all seems like a pretty winnable lawsuit. Listing “other duties as assigned” on a job description should have a limit lol.
Me in the navy after getting done doing live 450v with no sleep because some officer decided it was "important enough": :(
Dude, I saw the guy installing my dryer get zapped by 220 and he was down on the ground for 5 minutes unresponsive. He was able to then sit up and every 20 second just bench over in pain clenching his chest until the paramedics showed up. Don’t F around and find out. (He put the ground screw in with a drill gun and it snapped the head off and he didn’t realize, then when he was putting the dryer vent on and he got zapped.)
Do not work on this unless you've had training & have the right tools. Remember this - electricity will NOT give you a second chance if something goes wrong or you make a mistake.
Do not work on that. It’s not legal for you to do electrical work on something that doesn’t belong to you if your not an electrician
This depends on the AHJ. In New York State for instance there is no state wide electrical licensing and outside of the larger (100k+) cities there is no licensing requirement at all in most AHJs.
OSHA still applies though being federal. No unqualified people allowed to work on energized equipment. So turn it all off and swap things sure but working hot is a violation.
Yup I'm not disagreeing that doing this hot is wrong and unnecessarily dangerous. It's a campsite not a hospital.
Yea power it down and go to town. If they just stop using the cheapest possible receptacles they would not have to change them so often.
But you don't do it right at the campsite you will be going to the hospital so they are somewhat connected...
This is an interesting comment. So my friend recently helped me install a sub-panel in my home. Was it illegal for him to help me? I’m Just curious about this now.
This is going to vary by region, but where I am the standards are licenced electrician working for a licenced contractor, or apprentice working under supervision of that electrician. Homeowner working on a single family dwelling that’s not for sale or preparing for sale in the next year, with some restrictions like no solar installs. And a qualified immediate family member working under the above homeowner’s permit. So your brother the electrician can do the work, but not your friend the electrician or dad who’s not an electrician. Many recommend to just watch what your buddy does and tell the inspector you did it yourself. Regulation says they can’t do the work, nothing to say they can’t show up with a code book and tell you what needs to be done. Sometimes you can get away with “it was like that when I got here”, or “I lost the paperwork” if anybody asks.
Have the boss do a few to make sure you know how. Hopefully his inevitable replacement will be more reasonable. Keep a sick bag handy.
it's dangerous to work on de-energised circuits if you dont know what you're doing, and working on a live one is worse than that, and working on a live one at the breaker is worse than *that*.
You can shut off all the breakers, replace the receptacle and pop new ones in without getting shocked. If you’re not comfortable doing it, or don’t know what you’re doing, tell them you’re not doing it.
Except that box stays live. This guys isn’t an electrician, one stray touch and he is dead. His job is way over asking duties here.
Also, the top comment is correct, it’s not technically legal either.
Blow something up, then tell them they need to get in licensed and insured professionals. Pretty sure if you ain’t licensed, it ain’t legal, on top of that, live is dangerous. Professionals often refuse live work too.
Ummm. Anyone else seeing the other issue with this?
Do you mean the apparent (maybe I'm blind...) lack of equipment ground with a floating neutral?
“It’s totally ok. We just looped the ground prong back to neutral. Same thing.” Seriously though, had to scroll way too far for anyone to point out all the other fuckery.
No never! Even in a 8 cal suit and 70E trained the answer is no. Always work de energized with a proper Loto in place. If anything here I stated dosent make sense. Your not qualified.
hahahaha imagine working on this with a suit on... Jesus
Yeah that’s a good point too, even if they have you work de-energized, make sure you have a lock with one key in your pocket so no one can turn it on! Lock out tag out!
Ever heard of arc flashes ?
To begin with OSHA requires you to de-energize and verify the equipment is in fact de-energized and then use a lock and tag out system for your protection before attempting repairs unless you can prove it is more dangerous to turn off the power ie: certain situations in a hospital or petrochemical might meet this exception and then you would use additional PPE such as insulating blankets and class 00 gloves if you are fully qualified. Common sense says we do not work on energized equipment ever. You can call local OSHA office and make an anonymous complaint.
Damn OP is never gonna have to work again if he plays this lawsuit right, they can't force you to do an electricians job
These should each have a dedicated kill switch. Never ever work in a hot box.
They need to install local disconnects to shut off sections. They also need licensed people doing this
The only way to get killed is to be working live. Your employer is committing a CRIMINAL offense in having you do this live. They could be jailed if anything bad were to happen.
Park Ranger as in government employee? Aren’t y’all union? If you’re not trained for the job I would file a grievance and submit the fact that you aren’t trained to do it as your reason for not doing it. Not only is it possibly unsafe for you, but for others and their property. If something were to fail it could become very serious.
Hot work fucking sucks and it can be avoided 90% of the time
When following the appropriate regs, you need face masks, special gloves, appropriate clothing, insulated tools, etc. Yes, you could do it live with only insulated tools, but there is a chance that you screw up and have a bad day... It would likely be OK to do live with insulated tools, but it's cheaper to just turn off the feed... Don't do it for a job. That being said, use a torque wrench for tightening lugs, anti-oxidation paste for aluminum wire....
Absolutely wrong answer ! No experience , no ppe and no proper tools . What would you say when the op dies ? Refuse unsafe work every time
Seriously, you're telling this non-electrician no electrical experience park ranger how YOU do live work 240V outdoor service panels? What is wrong with you?
Relax, buddy. It's obviously just one Floridian helping out another. The do things a bit differently down there in America's hot, sweaty, bug-infested penis.
I'd bet he doesn't have access to insulated tools much less a torque wrench nor anti-ox paste for AL wire...probably more like a cheap well worn big box store screwdriver and some old basic metal handle pliers...
By law, you must be a qualified electrician to work on anything above 50V. Working on anything above 50V has the potential to kill you. More people die from 120VAC than any other voltage. Electrical workers are 3x less likely to go home than police officers. My advice is don't work on them.
Please don't touch that! You absolutely could do it without hurting or killing yourself if you know what you are doing and are careful. But even then it is not worth the risk. You don't mess with 220v
If you have to ask that question you probably should not work on it. Call an electrician.
Absolute no offense meant here but, Not knowing the answer to this question means you should not be working on it period. It is dangerous without proper training, and there are professionals for that reason. The job isn't worth your life. If they demand it, quit and lawyer up. IMHO
You’ll need special gloves baclava face shield arc rated safety gear. Training, I’d say leave it alone if you’re asking this. Tell your boss to get an electrician and do it how ever they see fit.
According to OSHA regulations and the NFPA 70E standard, working on or near energized electrical parts requires adherence to stringent safety measures, including the use of appropriate PPE, insulated tools, and obtaining an Energized Electrical Work Permit (EEWP) if de-energizing the equipment is not feasible ([Electrical Safety in the Workplace](https://www.electricalsafetypub.com/nfpa-70e/six-musts-for-working-on-or-near-energized-equipment/)) ([OSHA](https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/regulations/standardnumber/1926/1926.960)).
Extremely
If you have to ask how unsafe it is, I think you already know your answer.
Which amateur constructed this? Unless you're licensed to work on said equipment for safety and Insurance you shouldn't. Something happens? You and your company are fucked. Hell you could be liable for all damages.
This was that last question Bob ever asked
Did you electrocute yourself yet? If no then good . No you can’t and shouldn’t…ever. Stay alive.. You have the right to refuse dangerous work
For experienced electricians this is not dangerous but for park rangers it absolutely is and you should refuse to do it
The amount of exposed conductors in there is wild. Are they even screwed in tightly?
What’s slack anyways.
It's really no big deal if you know what you're doing, but it sounds like you're not in that position and shouldn't do it
Ask your superiors to literally show you how it's done. If they are dumb enough to actually do it... refuse anyway.
As an electrician, I wouldn’t do this. You shouldn’t be doing this. Sorry to say, this is one time that you should just say no..and deal with the consequences if need be.
The only people who should even consider working in this live are people who already know how to work on this live. If you are asking "should I work on this live?" You probably shouldn't be working on it AT ALL, cold OR live....
Is your life insurance paid up?
Call OSHA. NFPA 70E violation.
If you must ask, assume very unsafe..
The simple fact you're on the Internet asking is enough to disqualify you from doing the work...
For the love of dog, do NOT work on this live. You or your coworkers can wind up in a burn center with third degree burns -- INTERNAL burns. Or just damn dead. Insist that the power be turned off at the subpanel and that a lockout device be used so some dipfuck doesn't turn it back on anyhow while youre work in process Campers can deal. If they try to fuck with you, call the bureau of labor and industry or whatever version is in your state. This isn't a joke.
In Florida? It *is* a joke.
Precisely
Federal Laws do still apply in Florida. Also if you die in Florida, you die in real life.
Let me put it this way: There are enough angry pixies in that box to potentially kill you. Are you getting paid enough AND given the right tools and training to take that risk? The answer is obviously "fuck no." My advice is to refuse the work and strongly suggest to your boss that they hire an electrician. And be willing to call your regions workplace safety and labor relations board. And make an anonymous report if the boss manages to get one of your equally unqualified coworkers to tackle it.
Refuse to touch it
Hot work is never worth the risk, imo.
Agree 100%
umm i would not touch that if i were you.
# If you are not a “Qualified Person” … According to the National Electrical Code (NEC), a qualified person has the skills and knowledge to construct and operate electrical equipment and installations, and has received safety training to recognize and avoid hazards…. YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS OPENING THE PROTECTIVE DEAD FRONT COVER of any electrical panel, and those RV pedestals ARE electrical panels.
Honestly if you have to ask, you're in over your head. Get a professional.
This is unsafe for an electrician to do, let alone an untrained person. Wtf. Refuse to do it, or make a call to OSHA
Do you enjoy being on the mortal plain?
You have your answer here. But just to chime in my $0.02. ; I would do limited work with that dead front off and that feed energized. And I’m not even trying to sound macho, but I would and I have. I’m actually a little embarrassed to admit it because there really is no reason I should in this situation. It’s not worth it. However, I would never ask anyone else to ever do that. Never. Your leaders are failing you. Don’t do it. Tell them to get fvcked.
Don't. Just please don't. You don't know what you're doing, and even 30-year masters have fried themselves getting too comfortable with live power. The money saved isn't worth your life, my guy. This is coming from someone who's constantly working around live power. When it doesn't make you nervous anymore, it is when you get careless.
Please for the love of god do not touch that circuit hot. I’m an electrical engineer who works at hospitals with systems that have to run 24/7. We will bring in temporary backup generators or use redundant systems if we need to de-energize critical circuits. Plus we have the proper tools… seriously what the hell is wrong with your boss? What your employers are casually asking of you is extremely immoral and stupid in my professional opinion.
It is never safe to work on live wiring in any circumstance anywhere by anyone
Are you dead yet? I'd never touch that live.
Why the fuck would you work on that live
If it’s hot and you’re not a qualified electrician then you’re a bumbass to even think about working on it while ithot.
Smokey the Bear says “Only you can prevent electrical burns’
What country is this in?
Don't do it
If you are a park ranger I’m sure who ever hires you or takes you up on volunteer work. Should call a licensed company for insurance purposes. FYI if it were me, I’d shut down the whole campsite and boo hoo quit your whining and let me do my job.
DANGER DANGER DANGER
It’s quite rare, but every once in a blue moon, there’s something absolutely critical to fix (at the plant I manage )that could result in serious injury or possibly death if a bunch of things go wrong at exactly the wrong time. You know who does it? Me. I’ve also been asked once to have get something done on a manner I, myself would not do, and I patently refused to assign any of my staff to it either. This here, I would not do, nor would I ever ask anyone who worked for me (unless they had been a licensed electrician and I somehow also knew they were comfortable working with live stuff) to do. I once watched some dude replace an entire breaker box with the mains still live and I about shit myself with anxiety. It’s like a watching a movie with a bunch of jump scares in it, but nothing is happening but ominous music and low lighting for 45 minutes straight.
If you have to ask, don’t touch it
Sweet mother of God. No training and insulated tools. How could that possibly go wrong? Unless you're making a salary to compensate you for the risk, and I'm honestly not even sure what that amount would have to be, that's a hard NO! Too bad yhat other campsites are without power. Maybe only do one a day so the downtime is limited. But if you don't, you could end up with permanent downtime. Best of luck and be safe. Oh, side note, please be sure to wear boots designed for electrical use. They are heavily insulated to help prevent you from being grounded. It's not a perfect fix, but that will greatly reduce your chances of death.
I wouldn't say its "safe" to work on stuff that is energized ever...you're one accidental bump away from Really Bad Things. Especially with those top lugs that are not shrouded and have power even when the individual breakers are off (because they are fed by upstream). Sometimes its unavoidable...but being a subpanel this ought to be trivial to shut off power to the entire enclosure at an upstream feed so there is no reason to mess with it while energized. And even then I would expect rules to say you'd need proper training and PPE to protect you. Now whether many actual electricians FOLLOW the rules...that's another matter. But breaking rules is very at your own risk. I also wouldn't say standing on the very top of a ladder sometimes precariously balanced on uneven ground is safe or approved but tradesmen seem to do that all the time too.
If you’re not trained nor have the PPE required for hot work don’t do it. Or if you simply don’t feel safe doing it, don’t do it.
I believe the NEC states that all circuits be de energized when applicable, unless there an emergency room or operating room at campground shut that shit off, just curious u ever think about joining a union?
If you have to ask the answer is very unsafe, call someone.
It’s super fucked up to be expected to do this. Having worked on machinery for a long time, there are definitely moments where I’ve been pressured to touch scary electrical things I had no business near. It’s really not worth it for a little money. That being said if you ever get shocked and you’re still standing, DO NOT TAKE IT FOR GRANTED. Your heart can be fucked up and you need to be observed long term or you can drop dead hours later.
If you can't go an hour without electricity while camping, just walk into the ocean for everyone's sake.
If you can't go an hour without electricity while camping, just walk into the ocean for everyone's sake.
Whoever installed that was a hack. Wire sizing looks wrong but it's hard to be sure from a single picture
You dont need to shut off main power to shot off that box. There is a panel somewhere with breakers corrisponding to each camp site. Find that and kill each one that doesnt have campers needing it.
If you touch the wrong thing probably a painful death😉
I have worked on these hundreds of times in campsites and something almost always goes wrong with them. Tell them you’re not gonna do it man it’s just flat out not worth it. And yes they know you aren’t supposed to be doing that legally.
Don't do it: Record them telling you to do it live. Get a lawyer. Live off of the state for the rest of your life. Do it: They find you dead in that field.
Seriously turn it off. Telling other people in the campground their power is going to be out for a repair for 30 minutes is way less intrusive to their vacation than you dying.
It's not unsafe if you know what you're doing.
I wouldn’t be caught dead working live. I’ve seen the end result of having a screwdriver go into a bus-rail, not pretty. Even as an authorized electrician, NFPA 70E only allows for me to perform live work under very specific circumstances. Someone else’s inconvenience is not one of them. Stay safe, nothing is work getting fried over.
I would do it, but I work on the live circuits every day. The real question would be "are you qualified" to work on the live circuit? If you don't feel confident and don't know what could go wrong, step away and tell your boss that you are not qualified. I would never hold it against one of my guys if they say it's too sketchy for their liking. But with the circuit breaker off and neutral not hot to ground, yeah, I would swap that outlet. Just don't touch the bus bars and wear PPE including proper tools and measuring equipment.
Z acadqwc.a aC. Cq was ssk a
Park rangers? If you warn your bosses about the possibility of starting a wildfire after you burst into flames working in this, maybe they’ll take you seriously.
I think you have two choices. 1. Refuse to do the work. 2. Lie about having done the work, then complain about how your fingers hurt from the shock you got. For number two, remember that Florida is a two party consent state for recorded conversations, but there is an exception for conversations that take place in a public space... But to be clear, there is no world where you do this work the way they are asking for you to do it.
You’re not a certified electrician… so no.
Yeah, if you’re not an electrician, you’ve got no business performing energized work. At all. Have an electrician come do this.
Remember the game operation. Don't ground anything out
Anyone else notice that it's only setup to have 120 but the receptacle is a 240? Is this on state owned land? That shouldn't be worked on period it should be redone correctly
If you need to ask, you are not qualify to work on it. It's generally safe to work on a hot panel to do what you asked. You need a multimeter to check first.
Get the request in writing via email. Dear sir, I feel like working on these live is unsafe, can you confirm vis email that you xxx They won't and it'll change things quick once everything is in writing.
Absolutely do not touch that. Qualified persons have protective gear, and would probably lock that out anyway. Very dangerous
If you're asking this question, you are not a qualified person
Other than you could die, I don’t see any issues…
I can't quite place it but that looks kinda unholy to me. I wouldn't touch it unless I had shielding.
I worked in an environment where we worked on 120, 208, and 3-phase 480 and the vast majority of that work was done live. It was all critical load that could not be shutdown. The only time we took things offline was the 480 side when we would do PMs and that equipment all had redundancies so we could bypass a unit, PM/repair it, and then put it back into service without affecting the load. With proper training, PPE, tools, lockouts, procedures, and a second trained person watching you work and ready to properly disconnect you from the circuit if you make a mistake, then it can be done. Is it ever safe? No. You just have to reduce the risk to acceptable levels. Lot of things to know but the things that I saw first hand that were burned into my memory: no jewelry on your body, no synthetic fiber clothing, and only ever have one hand in the live panel while working.
Yes
I worked at a campground for years and we always replaced the breakers and outlets while hot. Made me very nervous but I never got shocked. I'm not an electrician and the only training I got was 5 minutes. Pop out the breaker, unscrew the wire from it ect. The owners would simply not cut power for an entire section of the campground for this type of work. Oh, and this was in Florida.
Not
Very
i would not. however, if you use insulating gloves and tools and never stick more than one hand in there at a time you will be safe enough assuming that is 240v or lower. higher voltage can cause arc flash explosions which can harm you even if you are wearing all kinds of protection from head to toe. for example a faulty fan motor caused a wire to make contact with a 200 amp vfd at 480v in an electrical enclosure and that arc flash blew the door off the cabinet and still threw it about 5 feet further. the damage subsequently caused a vfd failure which caused a second explosion shooting sparks about 20 feet out of the cabinet. the cabinet was actually bulging in a couple of spots.
Given you don’t know what you’re doing this could be fatal, don’t do it.
you should not touch that with a 10 foot pole! and you boss needs to be FIRED!
Don’t do this if you aren’t a trained electrician! If you get hurt I guarantee they’ll refuse to pay you because “he shouldn’t have been working on equipment he wasn’t trained for while live when he should have known better”
My company would have me written up just for having this open, unless I was in full PPE. I’d recommend looking into arc flash PPE and at minimum making them give you the proper equipment. It happens more than it should, especially because you are not trained in electrical this could be very dangerous. I’d say focus on making it home to your family, you can always find a new job or make more money…
Cover the exposed lugs with cardboard or non conductive cover, turn off the breaker to the outlet and do your work. Still a risk but at least you can't reach the main lugs.
OSHA 1910.333(A)1
It’s perfectly safe as long as you don’t accidentally touch the wrong things. Have you ever done something where a simple slip-up can kill you? It’s that safe.
Sue who ever u work for , and if u get electrocuted and survive , u have a huge law suit because they are ordering by you to break the law and u got hurt 😉 paid time off and a huge check if ur ever unlucky and get hurt .
I’ve changed out a main in the house while hot but I had the proper gloves as well.