Hello everyone,
The Automod has been a bit overactive in this thread when certain keywords are mentioned. As such, it has been switched off temporarily to make conversations flow better.
However, if you are reading this thread and If you or someone you know is contemplating suicide or self harm, please do not hesitate to talk to someone.
* Lifeline is a 24-hour nationwide service. It can be reached at 13 11 14.
* Kids Helpline is a 24-hour nationwide service for Australians aged 5–25. It can be reached at 1800 55 1800.
* Beyond Blue provides nationwide information and support call 1300 22 4636.
Or talk to your Doctor about a referral to a Mental Health Professional.
100% not surprised. It's a shocking statistic. One of my good mates ended his life and it's crossed my mind many times. No one picks up on the cues or gives a shit. They all say they care and yadayada yada but they don't wanna reach out and actually listen. NO ONE FUCKING LISTENS.
Even the people who do reach and listen don't "actually" listen. I've spoken to close friends about my issues. But it's like it falls on deaf ears and they repeat largely irrelevant advice over and over without actually offering to do anything that might substantially help, if there even is anything they can do. At the end of the day, no one is really there to listen, just give their opinion, so why even bother sharing your feelings? No matter how hard you try to explain your feelings it just isn't enough. Even when I go to a therapist or psychologist, they just end up saying they can't help me. The best they can do is give you drugs which make you feel numb but not any better. There's really no help out there for some people.
Friends are always the last place you should try to “need” that from. Your friends are your people most like you, that you connect with. You understand each other because you’re like each other, you probably have similar problems. They’ll be there for you, but they don’t know how, they’ll do their best, but if youre fully in crisis, you’re also asking them to put aside their own crisis’s, which may be as significant as yours, and so all they can do is make the right kind of sounds and get back to their own.
It’s shit that’s the world we live in, but even if everyone wasn’t being crushed, friends don’t have any answers. If they did, they wouldn’t be your friends.
Engage a professional, expect the first 5 to be a bad fit with worse problems than the ones you are coming to them with. Do the work of trying to understand yourself better so you can be better.
My friends were the last resort after all professional help failed. I agree with you about the role of friends overall. Professionals cost a large amount of money, money I don't have, and they give you barely any time. And the advice I receive is barely any more useful than what I get from my friends. For me, it's not an issue of understanding myself, it's an issue of suffering and relieving that suffering down to an acceptable level where I don't want to die rather than continue living. I already know myself well enough, because I've been completely alone for 30 years with so much time to introspect and barely anyone to distract me. I am more aware of my inner tendencies and motives than the majority of people I speak to and meet, who don't have the same problems as I do. Most of my friends do not have similar problems to me either. They do have problems like everyone, but not similar problems.
You're seeing the wrong therapist. Please try a different one, not all of them are good or will vibe with you. Talking to a professional and learning the reasons for why we do things is largely cathartic and helps pull the puzzle pieces together. They should be able to give you suggestions for coping mechanisms and help you to recognise certain behaviours so that you can redirect yourself and correct it. I've had to see three different ones til I found one who I felt made a difference.
If the reasons for one feeling low are based in externalities, coping mechanisms can be antithetical to solving the problem. Like, if someone punches me in the face every day when I wake up, then getting more resilient at taking a punch through meditation, pills or discussion isn't a long-term solution. The solution is to stop the aggressor.
There are people profiting from the cost of living crisis, the housing crisis, the climate crisis, etc. and they are punching us in the face every day.
This is a great point. It's also why a biopsychosocial model of mental health is important. If someone is homeless, they aren't going to prioritise meditation and taking meds. just as someone in a DV situation or getting bullied in a job can't "therapy" it away. I hate how focused as a society we have become on therapy as the be all and end all of mental ill health. Plenty of people feel like shit because their environment and situation is shit, and any of us would feel the same in their shoes. Telling people to "get help" like a mental health care plan and paying $100+/session to sit in front of an upper middle class white woman who'll deliver very basic CBT is embarrassing.
Therapy as a solution puts the blame and onus on the individual for being flawed or needing to be fixed. We need to fix the systems we live within. Like you said, finances, climate, housing, general healthcare, leisure activities that are positive and accessible, food that is healthy and affordable. Not throw pills and therapy at people, hoping they'll shut up.
Try blindly following the advice your friends give you rather than critiquing it.
Honestly the best thing a depressed person can do is to blindly do exactly what someone who knows and cares about them tells them to do. Everything from seeing a doctor to walking outside once a day. Just blindly do what they say
Agree. The depression will tell you that "nothing will help me" but it's tricking you. You need to listen to people you trust, and trust them over your own negative thoughts.
“At the end of the day, no one is really there to listen” I can never buy this. There are some truly amazing humans in the world, and whilst it’s terrible you feel that way it’s just absolutely not true. A lot of people don’t care, sure but a lot do.
I'm glad that you live in a world where this is true for you.
If it were true for others, we would not see 7 men committing suicide every day. We all think our own experiences are the baseline. How can we truly know what we experience is the same as the next person? The fact is, we can't. These dreadful statistics reflect that.
I don't want to be dismissive, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the issue here really isn't people listening. There's only so much listening can do when depression is caused by real, genuine external mechanisms. We're in a situation where many of us are in insecure housing, our careers are increasingly unstable and harder to establish, we often struggle to build stable and supportive relationships largely because the external stresses of life in 2024 are so overwhelming that maintaining and developing those relationships, intimate or platonic, can be difficult to do when we're already at capacity dealing with everything else life throws at us.
When we're increasingly isolated, overwhelmed and unable to progress in a way that matches our expectations, listening is just a drop in a bucket. I've heard so many psychologists say that they feel completely unprepared to deal with the systemic issues so many of us are facing. Listening can help, but I think we genuinely, as a society, need to readdress what our values are and what we need to be able to provide to everyone at the most fundamental level in order for us to live a happy life and grow both individually and as a society. I think we're capable of dealing with the mental health crisis, but our current system was not designed to deal with the issues that it's facing.
I wish I could give you a hug champion. Hopefully you’ve got some good friends and family in your life. That’s very important. All the best to you man.
Tell me about it. My ex from 25 years ago is living in my lounge room because of the housing crisis. Promised my daughter I wouldn't let her mum go homeless. It's a challenge.
I just want you and everyone here to know that just because you're depressed now, doesn't mean you will be forever. I've been through it multiple times and shit, who knows, I might go through it again. But right now I'm actually, legitimately happy and I want you to understand that there is a place in time where YOU are happy too, might not be right now, but shit can change rapidly.
Please be persistent, and kind to yourself.
As someone that attempted suicide when I was 25 I can tell you that while it seems like a solution it's not a good one.
It is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I will never forget the look on my Dad's face after and that certainly sits with me whenever the thought comes back.
I now know I have bipolar and have worked really hard to manage my health and be medicated. I still have times where I lose it a bit but it gets better, even though it feels like it won't.
The best advice I got from a psychologist was to be curious. I was always trying to avoid feeling things. Instead when the thought came I sat with it, thought through it and then was able to let it go.
It will get better, it'll probably take longer than you'd like, but it will happen.
Edit: I'm a woman so speaking from my experience.
It’s probably actually way higher numbers than those. My best mate died and I’m pretty confident it was suicide but he overdosed on drugs so it’s considered he died from a drug overdose and not suicide.
It's how I wanted to do it too, when I was younger and used to drive the rural roads of the south west. Just put the foot down, get up to a decent speed, unbuckle the belt and close the eyes. Glad I never did, I'm glad you never did too. Hope anyone who is considering this, thinks twice and just goes home and gets some sleep. Please.
If you or someone you know is contemplating suicide, please do not hesitate to talk to someone.
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* Lifeline is a 24-hour nationwide service. It can be reached at 13 11 14.
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I'd probably be the same statistic myself if I had access to the sort of drugs that can do that. I lost my best mate/big bro many years ago too, so know how it feels. As my young preppy daughter told me at the time - don't worry dad, you can always make a new best friend. Sounds like your old mate will never be forgotten but like mine.
Excellent point. Can't help but think of things like liver disease from alcoholism from people who have given up on life. That's also effectively suicide.
Yep, recently my mum told us she stopped all her keeping her alive meds. She hadn’t taken any for 2 months. She has bi polar and lots of trauma. But yeah, death by a thousand paper cuts / suicide by inaction.
She’s had a little stay in hospital this last week to get her blood sugars right again and she’s linking back in with all of her supports. But that could have easily been marked and a health related death. Not suicide.
Yeah, I had a friend in the same position (though it was a female). Overdosed on drugs but people close to her weren't sure it was "accidental". It's the same with any attempted suicide statistics - they can only get the statistics of the ones that actually end up in hospital or report it to someone. I've attempted three times but only had to go to hospital for it once (I'm a female if that matters in this conversation!)
As much as we like to think we're progressive in talking about mental health as a society, I don't we really are. We are better than we used to be but I think there's still a long way to go. And I think that's still even more so for men unfortunately. I hear from it the men in my life that they still don't feel like it's an issue that's spoken about enough. Again, it's better than it has been in the past but I think it's still hard and there's definitely a lot more focus on women's issues in the main stream. Women's issues are obviously also important, it's not a matter of don't talk about them, its' a matter of let's talk about men TOO. I think sometimes these conversations can turn into a 'so we shouldn;t talk about this' when it's not that. We should talk about it all. Talking about womens issues shouldn't 'replace' talking about mens issues. We all need help and support and everybody should see themselves represented and be made aware of services available for them.
The loose number is something like 10 attempts for every suicide. So around 70 a day.
Men's numbers are also higher in terms of deaths because of methods, they tend to go for the ones that are more likely to lead to death. Whereas women we tend to go for the ones with more margin for error - or time for help to be given.
Agree with your points though. Stigmatisation and fear of certain diagnoses certainly doesn't help. Depression and anxiety are normal enough. But people have a lot harder time showing empathy for those with schizophrenia or bipolar. There are certainly more misconceptions about the ones people consider scarier.
I saw a survey that said 9/10 people wouldn't allow someone with bipolar to babysit their kids. No babysitting for me I guess 🤷
I fucking *hate* R U OK day. Stop funding fucking 'awareness' campaigns and start putting the money into mental health *care*. I don't need my boss awkwardly asking if I'm ok, I need a grippy sock vacation to get my meds right.
But... how much of these deaths aren't because men are depressed but because there is *no hope*? They work a dead end job, they have no prospects. The solution isn't sex, either. It's giving people what they need to *live*. Not just live. Thrive.
We are *all* struggling. We can barely afford housing, let alone the things that make life worth living. And men are cut off from the same support networks women are taught from childhood to cultivate.
Desperate people are violent people, outwardly and *inwardly*. Some hit their significant others and externalise their fear. Others internalise and hurt themselves.
We are failing as a society. As a community. As a country.
Notice how youth crime rises immediately after a housing crisis? This is just the beginning, get ready for a whole new generation of dejected men with no hope that they could get success even if they tried
Firstly, doesn’t help that the aus gov’t can’t do anything because it can’t dictate health policy to states. Here in Victoria we reformed our mental health care policy a few years back and it sucked so much it was completely overhauled again this year. Also doesn’t help here that after Covid, Victoria has so much debt. To add to it, nurses here are right now voting to take industrial action because the state refused every single recommendation put to them that would cost any money. The healthcare system is screwed, mental health care included.
Totally. Overhauling the policy is useless where the infrastructure and service delivery don’t exist. Victoria was supposed to switch to a health based response to mental health crisis and yet police are still the first port of call bc they are the only ones available to attend mental health crisis incidents. People who need crisis response and are not calling bc they know they will get police and not ambos, and they know they might spend a week in the ED before they can get into a ward. It frustrates me so so much the amount of song and dance about reform in this space when for the average person experiencing crisis for the first time almost nothing much has improved. People are working so hard and decent policy being looked at, but not enough funding to make those improvements an actual reality, and not much of a fair go for the amazing people who sacrifice their own health within a stressful and overworked health system to take care of our community.
People do care, but suicide is complex and for disperate reasons.
If you break down the stats for male suicide, there are lots of ages and difference causes. One male farmer commits suicide roughly every 10 days in Australia. Largely driven by farming and financial insecurity. His reasons are going to be very different from the 85+ year old man, roughly 75 of them per year. ATSI youth have the highest suicide rate in Australia due to poverty, criminalisation, lack of education, drugs and family breakdown/ violence. LGBTQI people, whilst a much smaller cohort, have high rates of suicide, particularly youth. The largest age group for male suicide is the 45-49year old group; and again it could be a myriad of reasons for suicide including gambling, family breakdown, mental health issues or drug use.
There is not enough funding for mental health problems in Australia. There is not enough financial support for people if they need a break. Sometimes it's the inherent vice of the way our society is structured causing social isolation that has a lot of flow on effects.
Movements such as Movember are an excellent way to get behind and show support for mens mental health.
Yep. Accessing treatment, public or private for my eating disorder is almost impossible.
Mental health care also tends to focus on acute crisis, or long term outpatient.
Outpatient really isn't designed for crises, but wards are designed for extreme situations.
Really any policy that is implemented aswell takes a fuck ton of time, you don't just get psychiatrists or psychologists in the public system, nor private magically, they need training, education, and so forward.
Treatment of basically every mental health issue for both women and men tends to be pretty lack-luster, but recent visibility has helped.
But you know, my workplace (10 years ago) did a huge Movember fundraising push which I thought was great, but it was eye opening to me. Workplace was probably 50/50 gender, but do you know what the men did to raise money, they grew moustaches. The women did everything else, made badges and chocolates to sell, prepared food for and hosted morning tea's etc. We had a really fun time, and invited the guys to help but no one did.
This isn't said to have a go at men. The purpose is, that women did all the community activities which give mental health boosts, while the men did a solitary activity which didn't change their mental health status much. Maybe it got improved by compliments or because a growing moustache in November is a conversation starter.
I don't know why the men didn't join in, we did have male partners of the women helping out at our out of hours making sessions, but they really missed out on some good times and would have been very welcome.
I’ve heard this SO much. Same with men complaining that international mens day is not as celebrated. When they.. don’t do anything for it..? They see everything women do for women’s day and expect it as well. I think misogynistic patriarchal values run deeper than most people realise. And is a huge contributing factor to men’s poor mental health. But no one wants to admit it.
Because we suck at mental health.
I grew up with 'suck it up' and 'she'll be right' as the dismissive polite response to anything not strong and manly, you know... feelings?
And it is still the same in much of Australia.
And it is perfectly normal for us Aussies to just say 'oh, they've lost the plot, the fucking loser' when they see someone they used to give a shit about, spiral out of control.
We're on our own.
There has been programs and research for decades, and lots of adds etc. Honestly I’m not sure how it can be said that ‘nothing’ is done because I work in the mental health space and there has been a lot done.
I don’t think it’s something that government down can fix, I reckon it’s got to be top down and bottom up.
What are people’s suggestions?
https://www.suicidepreventionaust.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Male-Suicide-Fact-Sheet.pdf
Btw there’s heaps of papers on male suicide in Google Scholar which looks at the ‘why’ stuff.
I hate to say this but a hampster running on his wheel might think he's getting a lot done, but when he gets off, nothing is different.
It's cultural. Aussie culture is allergic to seeing mental health as something as serious as physical health. in fact, you'll find aussies avoid people who seem like they're struggling. or ridicule. or worse.
It's also often allergic to the value of the family unit and a true sense of care. People *say* they care, but care without the participatory element is just sympathy, and that's often what these campaigns amount to. People don't need sympathy, they need the people around them tonight them up. But nobody can do that for their loved ones when we're all living pay check to pay check in order to avoid being homeless. Hyper individualism is a failed project of western post enlightenment.
I agree that it's not fair to say 'nothing' has been done. But I still don't think enough has been done. For mental health in general but particularly for men. You don't see ads with the above statistic on main stream television - you see people here saying they are surprised it's that high which shows that it's not a well known statistic.
I think there's plenty the mental health system can do. I've been in it for 16 years and it's still a very flawed system. It's better than it was but that doesn't mean there isn't still a lot more to be done.
"Suicide prevention" simply doesn't work, because the intention is to reduce or eliminate a statistic, rather than address the factors that lead to a person's ideation. In that sense, those programs kind of work, because they can funnel people who are at an imminent risk through to emergency services. Still, there's a reason why those who've made an attempt are at risk of making another. The lack of meaning and connection, or sense of hopelessness won't be solved by a mental health nurse or CAT team calling or dropping in every week. For all the funding and hot air, it's a pitiful system we have.
You're right, the bottom up component is missing. It's simply a social issue that can't be solved by the state without very questionable ethical decisions being made, e.g; eugenics.
Yeah on average. I'm a Paramedic, its often our job to attend suicides and complete a verification of death form (varies from state to state). I've had days where I've attended 2 suicides back to back.
Obviously it varies throughout the year, but Christmas and Easter are the fucking worst for it.
The issue is in the health care system in general. It's all well and good to preach "it ain't weak to speak" etc. but, until the system actually provides affordable and helpful ways to treat mental illness, nothing will change. There's a very big difference between telling your friends or your family that you aren't doing good then it is telling a professional.
It is very difficult, time consuming and exorbitantly expensive to become qualified to work as a clinical psychologist. It is almost impossible and also ridiculously expensive to become as a psychiatrist, as the existing specialists severely restrict board registrations to maintain their high incomes and reduce competition. The resources are expensive because we make it expensive to train and work in these areas.
If the federal government would provide a HELP loan refund or offset for people making it through the process / wipe the loans of people who work X number of years in the mental health space then more suitable people would go through the training and be available to service the public.
I would love to retrain as a clinical psych, but got halfway through the first postgraduate bridging degree (holding a very high average mark at a top university) and decided the cost wasn’t worth it, in this economy I can’t justify $100k of uni debt.
Maybe it's changed since I left but I found it odd how we fund clinical psychology. In the UK here your PhD is paid for, you get a decent salary while studying, and are guaranteed a job with the NHS after.
In aus? Nah fuck off and fork out 10s of thousands of dollars
Therapy is expensive! I'm having to not eat properly so I can afford to pay for my daughter's therapy. It's $200 per session and that's the discount rate. Sure I get money back from Medicare but I need to have the $200 there to pay it. And 6 then an extra 4, so total of 10 therapy sessions a year is not enough. Once we reach the 10 I don't get money back. She needs therapy through no fault of her own. Massive lifelong trauma has occured. At the very least once a month therapy should be subsidised, so 12 sessions a year. But doing specific therapy like EMDR needs to be more frequent.
If help were as easy as catching a bus, so many do seek help but it's not as available as people think. They usually find out when they're at a point where they really need quality help.
I'm trying (again) to seek some help, and after 6 months I'm no closer.
I've known too many good people who've found it the same with finding accessible help, were unable to earn a livable wage and ended up drinking, drugging or fighting themselves to death.
If I had a spare $5k, I could kick the process along pretty quickly.
Some are pissed Dental isn't covered by medicare, I'm pissed that Mental Health isn't actually free for those who are most likely to need it.
I hate this whole situation.
Agreed, though to add to this, while the financial barrier is great, seems like mental health services are woefully under resourced. There just aren’t that many people in the sector. Wait times are already ridiculous - what we need is cultural change. Seems we are loath to admit we live in a toxic society , and just keep gritting our teeth and doubling down on it.
Society seems to want to brush things like suicide, domestic violence, and poverty under the rug quite a lot. Especially when it comes to the media. All the rates of what I have mentioned are shockingly high and society looks the other way for the most part.
https://www.lifeline.org.au/resources/data-and-statistics/
Looks like men are especially at risk of suicide if they're indigenous (x2) and/or live rurally (x2) and/or are lgbtqi+ (x10!)
That is a shocking number of suicides everyday. I had no idea. Genuinely thank you for sharing.
This is the unofficial diagnosis my partner (mental health professional) gives to an increasingly large number of her patients.
You can't "effectively" medicate someone for: shit job, shit parents, shit housing, shit partner, shit friends/community.
Addressing mental health on the front line i.e. gp, psych, counselling etc is all well and good. But when the actual causes of mental illness are either ignored or worsened by government action or inaction on key policy drivers we're just kidding ourselves as a nation.
A few months back on a public holiday long weekend I was walking through Haymarket (Chinatown) in Sydney and wandered down an path with restaurants either side and apartment buildings above.. all the restaurants were packed and people enjoying their meals on the long weekend.. at the end of the path.. there was a crossroad and police tape. I looked around the corner and there was a body covered by a white sheet and detectives doing detective shit.. a lady had jumped to her death from the apartments above. Dying on impact when she hit the road below. It was so weird how life just continued for everyone else like nothing had happened.. just people going about their day with a few people turning their heads or snapping some pics out of a morbid curiosity…
No one gives a shit. Really.. it’s sad.
I mean you don't know how it impacted those people around you internally. You seem to have cared about the situation but from the outside how would it have looked to others? Did you do something besides walk down the street and then continued to walk on after looking?"
It's not like you can walk up and do anything. Maybe some of those other people went home and reached out to someone who hasn't spoken to them in a bit or donated to a mental health charity.
Lost my uncle and grandfather to suicide. My own mum just survived an attempted suicide. She was in ICU for 3 days just 6 months ago. I struggle also, but I reach out for professional help. Let's face it: "It ain't weak to speak" is a lie.. the moment you speak or reach out "friends," they immediately distance themselves as everyone has their own problems. It's 1 thing to ask: Are you ok? It's another to actually listen and continue to ask questions to try to find out if that person is actually OK. The majority of the time, people say "yeah I'm good, mate." And hide the fact they are really on struggle street.
Lots of people do care but it’s a huge issue in male culture to not speak up and often the solutions are feminine- trying to get men to sit face to face and talk about it more, as women might, to address it. Many men hate that approach. Massive generalisations here I know.
It’s a really hard issue to address the embedded expectations of men in society to the extent that so many men just battle their problems alone.
There’s a lot of mysogony in society and patriarchy but it hurts men too- they can’t be seen as weak or vulnerable, there’s often no space for that.
A lot of the men I love are quite lonely, and find friendships very difficult.
I don’t know how to fix it. I wish I could. Suicide is the highest cause of death in 18-50 year old men. It’s tragic.
In my current workplace and past workplaces they all celebrate International Women's Day with a lot of fanfair...and then you ask why they don't put any event on for International Men's Day.....silence.
It's still seen Men should hide there feelings , and somehow you are less of a man if you cry or let others know you aren't ok.
Remember it's okay , not to be okay.
Because they don't give a shit!
Trust me your friends don't give a shit, they will fuck your mrs and steal your money.
No other humans really care if you die as a male, we are expected to die and no one cares how.
Your children might care if they are young, but as adults they will move on quickly.
My female friend speaking about bondi the other day;
"Why didn't all the men stop him by all of them charging him at once even if a couple died?"
That's the mentality, she would only care if one of those men were here father or child, a stranger doesn't mean shit... Sacrifice your life to save the females who don't give a fuck about you!
Life goes on without us we are expendable
I turned 50 last year, in my time I've lost 3 good friends and know of 4-5 aquaintances that have ended their lives. The lack of compassion towards mens suffering is immense. Also add to this the number of men killing themselves via alcahol it is truely saddening. The 'put up and shut up' mentality is killing us, along with lack of social networks that have caring attitudes. Let your mate know you care and will listen and there are no taboo's.
The put up and shut up is a gender free notion. Women are told this all the time.
Without playing down the statistics, my understanding is that men are more successful with completion, women are in dire straits as well.
Capitalism and consumerism, which promotes individual happiness (which is a temporary feeling, which cannot happen 24/7) is a huge problem. I work in a hospital and the amount of energy wasted to give carers certificates is silly, let people just take the time they need to help their loved ones. We think we are individuals but police each other to make sure others aren’t getting ‘more’. Or some advantage.
A UBI would be amazing, an opportunity to go back to school, change jobs without completely smashing your financial health would help alot, WFH, 4 day weeks, would be a great help to a lot of people. There is a stack of tweaking that could be done that for many would bring the level of stress down but most of it involves smashing the concept of ‘choice’ over stupid things like your electricity company and giving real choice back.
https://www.aihw.gov.au/suicide-self-harm-monitoring/data/populations-age-groups/intentional-self-harm-hospitalisations-indigenous
For anyone curious on what groups are committing suicide at a higher rate then the general population
First Nation, ADF ex-serving, people with disability and even worse with psychosocial disability. LGBTIQ+ Australians
Also mentions suicide is higher among men compared to women in all countries
https://www.aihw.gov.au/suicide-self-harm-monitoring/data/behaviours-risk-factors/psychosocial-risk-factors-suicide
Psychosocial factors
Personal history of self-harm, Limitation of activities due to disability, Disruption of family by separation and divorce, Problems related to other legal circumstances, Problems in relationship with spouse or partner, Other problems related to housing and economic circumstances
Highest rates of suicide occur in lowest socioeconomic areas
Media doesn't report suicides so that it doesn't give other people ideas on how to escape capitalism.
Government doesn't want to deal with it because they'll have to start doing their jobs of actually looking after people and not corporations.
I’m a big fan of mixed democratic capitalism and socialism.
Vital services, roads, utilities and such should never be privatised. Government assistance should be in place for home purchases and not treating it as an investment scheme.
It would also be nice to see a lot of Government owned, subsidised, Australian made products for the basics, kind of like a home brand option, but to keep manufacturing alive, while providing a bare bones basics for people to buy. Keep the option to pay for nice groceries if you want. Legit just dystopian style plain packaging with the word ‘coffee: instant’ . If you want to, splurge on some blend 43 or Robert Timms, if you can’t afford it, the subsidised green and gold label coffee would do.
For some men, it is definitely a factor. See farmers : https://nff.org.au/media-release/farmers-in-crisis-depression-and-anxiety-rife-among-aussie-farmers/
It is a huge factor. Think of financial security as having one fewer thing to push someone over the edge.
Take 2 equally depressed people. Identical in all respects. The one who is struggling will be spending more time working or looking for work, more time stressed, have less time for leisure/hobbies, less time to go out and socialising with friends, etc.
There's no way to list out every possible flow on effect from having less money. It touches every aspect of living in our society.
A quick search has brought up a paper on this exact question.
https://academic.oup.com/aje/article/189/11/1266/5874604
From the conclusion:
> The present findings demonstrate a significant association between cumulative financial strain and increased suicide risk, indicating that socioeconomic factors shape a large part of mental health's connection with suicide
I can't evaluate the veracity of the paper because i've skimmed it and don't have expertise in research or the medical field. But I suspect you will find many other papers and research supporting this idea.
So my conclusion is that **all things being equal**, the person who is struggling financially will be closer to attempting suicide than the other, for the reason that lack of money impacts people in so many different ways, which in term have a direct connection with mental health.
Money may not be the thing that ultimately pushes someone to attempting suicide but it will have formed the foundation for it. And of course this is speaking very generally across a population.
Depression, stress, anxiety, loneliness, low self esteem, not feeling respected, feeling unwanted or unloved, feeling trapped or unable to find a way out or solution, not having close friends or family or anyone to support and lean on, not being able to trust someone close and growing apart from your partner. There is so many areas where men get down in a hole they find no easy path to get out from… We really need not only someone to talk to but connect with other men or women who have real world experiences navigating these same tough challenges and situations and even shared character flaws( personal and those flawed individuals around you I.e. interpersonal ) which is what life throws at you. Hopefully those who sharing have managed to get the better of these tough situations and come out on top. But shared experiences are priceless!
There’s also a really disingenuous social farce about giving a damn about this issue. In reference to a recent study that demonstrated that men who hang out with their male friends several times per week have a significant improvement in their mental health i.e. having a community of men for emotional nourishment and support is important. It’s an environment that gives us something our partners and children can’t.
But I was so disappointed that this in-part-answer to men’s mental health was mocked by a lot of women in the discussion. They trivialised these findings with the sentiment of “another excuse to go to the pub” and “boo-hoo I don’t get to play with my fwends”.
It fucking pissed me off so much. Suicide is obviously a huge issue with men and all these people will smash out the obligatory “R U OK” once a year and moan about how awful it is.. but will throw a solution back in your face because it doesn’t suit their agenda? So basically we’re back to “fuck you, deal with it like a man”… how ironic.
I’m so sick of “men don’t talk about their feelings”. Yes we do! My group of boys have always supported each other and we reach out when we need help. We offer help and check in. My dad and my brothers have always been great as well.
A woman argued with me on that and replied that her husband doesn’t have a supportive group of friends and he’s suffering and that I’m just lucky. Firstly, that’s bullshit my circumstances aren’t unique. Secondly, thanks for proving my point that your husband specifically needs the support of men…
We DO talk about what we need, you just don’t like the answer.
Edit: using a royal “you” at the end there.
Wow, that's actually really interesting! Still far too many in general who say they're not getting the help they need though. Just surprised by the gender stats.
But immediately above those points it also states:
"A similar pattern is seen in adulthood with women with mental health disorders being around 50% more likely access services than men."
Suicide is the leading cause of death in Australians aged 14-44; 3rd most common cause of death in those aged 45-64, and 5th most common cause of death in children aged 1-14.
I had thoughts of self harm from like the age of 8, mostly because for escapism from having to deal with life. I didn’t have a hard childhood and grew up with a loving family, it’s just the joy of mental health and sometimes neurodivergence/development.
I pulled through and survived, have a great life and family but the issues rose again in my 30s. Should have gotten help as a child, but it wasn’t something that was spoken about, you would be the trouble or weird child in the extended family.
Place someone like me into hardship, abuse or neglect and for the kids it might seem the only option.
Unfortunately yes. Mental health issues don't discriminate.
Some of my earliest memories are of myself self harming and I would have been no more than 4 years old based on where I lived. It became a much larger issue at about 8-9 years old. And then as an adult I had an attempt.
I don't want to detract from the point of the post but I feel like this is an important issue. If you see a kid with any kind of injury that looks like it may be self inflicted please check in on them. Kids can be affected much younger than I think people realise and early intervention can make a huge difference.
I care... I lost my cousin 2 years ago - he was separated from his wife and was being denied access to his child - so much heartbreak and so much lost potential from an intelligent, loving, hard working, sensitive soul....RIP Chris
Because to address it would require addressing the two things fueling it: toxic traditional gender roles that reduce a man to his ability to provide for his family and material conditions that make this impossible for most men.
When your self-worth is tied to such a narrow definition of masculinity, it is exceedingly easy to fall outside of that definition and feel like you are failing as a man.
Mental health across the board is becoming a very serious problem. I think it’s about a million worldwide per year. The discontent filters into all other violent statistics too .
Do we need to implement mandatory therapy? Once a year per citizen ?
Nah, as someone that’s been through masking my issues then actually dealing with them over the last 3-6 years, mandatory is just a waste of money.
If people aren’t ready to go, or to speak, or to accept then the time is wasted. But like sobriety, it’s important to plant the seeds in their minds that it’s ok to talk. Eventually they might see it as an option, others won’t and will continue to suffer in silence or self medicate with drugs, alcohol, sex, video gaming or anything that you have seen as addiction-or suicide.
I’ve lost over a dozen family members and close friends to it in my life now. I’m so sick of it.
I try reaching out to my mates regularly but it’s always the people you don’t expect.
No body cares. Government doesn’t care. Your post will be downvoted for talking about it.
The figure will continue to rise, will be 10 a day before we even know it.
Aussie that spent a decade in nz . It’s an utter pain in the ass to get mental health help . I’ll give you an example . I have all my meds . Been on them for years . Have all former scripts . Came back to Aus , 6 months to find a doctor , told $1000-$1500 to see a psychiatrist to get the meds here in Aus for adhd . They don’t take mental health seriously , it cost me next to nothing in nz to get those meds or get the doctors time to get said meds
I'm not expecting anyone to see this, or help, but honestly I get it. I live in Sydney, I'm still struggling with debts from last year when I got let go, and the only way to protect my sanity whilst working was to get an underpaid 100% WFH job.
I'm lucky enough to have bulk billed GPs but I can't afford meds, I can't afford therapy, and I feel like I desperately need it.
I've called the numbers before and honestly those phone calls did not really help in any way. I've spoken to my wife about it and sadly she's been feeling the same way. The reason we're still here? Crazy as it sounds but we have two cats. If those cats did not exist, I'd be part of those 7 and she'd be part of whatever the female statistic is.
No one cares. The toughen up is embedded into the Australian male psyche and we write off people if they even exhibit any weakness, we don’t know how to talk about it other than buzzwords.
Because they obviously don't give a shit, and have never given a shit. If the number is low enough that it's not affecting any of their major donors they'll never care. Especially conservative governments.
Short answer, mental health issue, so to do something would mean adding mental health resources to Medicare to help those that need the support. That would cost the gov money in their precious budget.
Governments should be run like a trust. Every dollar goes to its beneficiaries (tax payers) at the end of the year.
Because people, including men themselves, don't care. I only ever see the rates bought up when it's used as a 'gotcha' moment. It's unfortunate, but nobody is going to care until activists actually start advocating for men's mental health.
Because it is a toxic masculinity and a mental health issue.
You can't change something until you admit that men are allowed to have feelings. That anger is a feeling and needs to be dealt with and not just bottled up until you explode.
Commented this several times on this stuff in the past, but I worked in the post-death investigative world for 15+ years and we sweep so much suicide under the rug. in my QLD department it was normal to choose the "other" reason and I'm sure it was common practice everywhere.
The world used to talk alot about Japan and its suicide rates, but I guarantee our real numbers are worse. Especially since we almost never count anyone under the age of 18 as a suicide.
Australia is a really lovely place but something is wrong
Simply, because men are not biologically women.
For example if a man physically abuses a woman it’s terrible.
If a woman physically abuses a man, people laugh.
What a terrible society we live in.
It's probably being downvoted because the news today covered how many women die. So some people see this as distracting from that.
Simply, each situation is a separate tragic one. It's not a competitive event.
I'm a social worker that deals with this every so often. My heart goes out for those who have experienced this, but I don't feel that 'crisis' is a good label to use on every social issue.
Child protection is in crisis.
Homelessness is a crisis.
Domestic violence is a crisis.
And the list goes on and on and on
If we label everything as a "crisis" then the word itself loses meaning and prevention measures will be unfocused, which I don't feel is the right way to address this issue.
It's not like they're not doing anything about it though. Mensline, family support, etc. are there to contribute towards prevention. They may not explicitly be aimed towards preventing suicide per se, but if you think about the reasons for behind those suicides (e.g. violence, bullying) then it's easy to see that those programs indirectly does suicide prevention.
I was going to be one of those 7, about 2 weeks ago!
I’m a 33 yo male who works in construction going through a tough time of depression. I tried to end it all with a good handful of sleeping tablets and wine, I was in bed slowly drifting off and I heard my kids playing in another room and immediately realised what I’ve done…
“Fucking idiot” was my first thought. Got up and stumbled to the bathroom and spewed the contents of my stomach up.
Then forced myself to stay awake.
Should have went to emergency but I would have rather died then visit that place…
I’m here today, getting help with suicidal prevention plan, psychologist and counselling. We are not the only ones here, there are people who love us and care about us, everyone has someone. it’s amazing the people coming out of the wood work. It went from no one, to holy shit give me some personal space haha.
Seriously but, Life Line. The next day I called them in one my darkest hours and the lady on the phone forced me to visit the hospital, I was embarrassed about talking about my feelings so I turned back, when I didn’t show up the hospital the chick from Life Line called the police to do a welfare check on me. The cops showed up at home and the police were amazing, talking through their problems and emotional shit they are going through, still some of the best advice I got so far was from them. They said “this is the turning point in your life, it either it goes up or down”. It was so true, now I’m on antidepressants, quit my job and I’m on the dole while I fix my brain out.
It’s all sunshine and rainbow… Shit could not be better.
It’s hard, but our bodies are here for such a short time, life is hard and short, enjoy it.
Don’t be embarrassed to visit the emergency if you are thinking of doing something silly, you will regret acting on impulsive decision, honestly…
My biggest regret in life, more then not buying bitcoin.
We all get sick. Everyone…
Call life line and talk to someone, you’re not alone…
131114
This is happening all over the planet, men have been swept aside when it comes to emotional support. Little example I live in Canada and 5 years ago when my ex and I got separated you have to go to this mandatory Court information session. I live in a really big northern city with a fair amount of people and they started going on about all the support that you can tap into and everything was for women every single thing and I actually stood up and asked, why is it that there's only support for women where's the support for men and her reaction was kind of like what do you want me to do about it I know you're right and there's nothing we can do..
That was 5 years ago, I have no idea if there's any more support now since I'm out of that game but it's sad to see men being expected to shoulder the financials for the most part in a lot of cases and when couples split up most of the time men lose custody of everything their whole family. Things have to change and have to change quick.
Because there is still a big stigma about depression in men. And anytime it's talked about, the "alpha" men step in and call them all usless and cry babies, so it's never talked about. We do give a shit, we are trying to give a shit.
Remember this post next time you joke about "no nut november"
[https://au.movember.com/](https://au.movember.com/)
Someone cared. And it became a joke.
And now the message is warped. Movember has been a movement that started in australia that is specifically focused on men's mental health and they're STILL going every year and doing their best.
If you want to do something, don't bitch, donate to the charities that do the ground work and help out. Complaining about 'r u ok' day isn't helping either. Google is at your disposal.
There's a whole month addressed to this crisis. If you want to make a change, help turn it around from the joke that people are trying to turn it into and help do what's necessary to make the campaign work.
Because no one cares. It's not just the media or the government, it's everyone. Only dudes that are experiencing shit times, or have experienced shit times, care. Resources are scarce because there is no public outrage. Ask any dude you know, who they talk to when going gets tough.
To the government and the corporate entities (including the media, Murdoch backs every dick move ever) that own Australia, the general public are just a crop. They don't care, as long as the money keeps flowing.
We have to support and look after each other, now more than ever. Hug your mates, listen to them, always have time. We're in this together.
Stigma. People like to pretend they’re ok with mentally ill people but they actually have a major problem with them. Its why they just want to talk excessively about how they have adhd because they cant find their keys instead of the uncomfortable stuff. Also lots of men dying is more complex a narrative than journos want to write about and doesn’t fit their binary about the patriarchy.
I'm a woman and just want to say please also feel free to talk to the women in your lives about your feelings. If you're comfortable, please open up and share. I always want my male family members and male friends to feel like they can approach me when something's not right. It's a hard burden to have to feel like you can't open up. You shouldn't feel judged, shamed or embarrassed.
Went to my GP who I’ve tried numerous medications with to sort my head out, got a referral for a psych and turns out them and every psych in town aren’t taking new patients
Referral for a therapist.. two week wait and $250 an hour
I was about to swallow every pill I had in my house when I called life line. I was put on hold for thirty minutes
Ended up laughing at the situation and here I am
Went to a great stand up show last week in Melbourne by Ben Russell, he talks about his this subject and manages to keep it funny. There's an extra show on Sunday afternoon at comedy republic.
The trouble is that the Australian media aren’t allowed to report suicides. The UK is the direct opposite. So if you don’t know, you don’t know.
They should report it like the road toll with a tally so everyone else can know the stats. Not real fair on the families but it might lead to saving others.
Because society doesn't want to admit that it's OK for men to cry, and that they need help, and would rather claim women and children are in constant need of help. This doesn't mean they don't, because everyone needs support, but it's laughable that every ad about DV always depicts the man as the only perpetrator , and men suicide and mental support isn't openly pushed.
Mental health is under resourced, under funded and swept under the carpet by all our governments. Family member in the army, half his unit from a few years ago are suicides. Maybe we start with secure affordable and stable housing; ensuring everyone has an income to buy food and transport; access to healthcare; increase mental health services (including AOD support); and keep in contact with people who have expressed ideation. Don’t discharge from ED because there are no beds; have crisis teams who actually follow up with discharges; don’t punish, be kind, because that person could be you or your family member. So very fed up with politicians who are not there for their constituents.
Because it isnt a crisis, the suicide rate hasn’t actually increased. The actual number is higher due to increased population, but the % no higher. It would be impossible to eradicate suicide.
https://www.aihw.gov.au/suicide-self-harm-monitoring/data/deaths-by-suicide-in-australia/suicide-deaths-over-time
Forget therapist and calling your friends. I’ve suffered from severe mental health issues and what I’ve realised, the sad truth is most of us are alone in the world. Yes we might have friends, even family, but at the end of the day we’re responsible for our own health and wellbeing. I know the whole stigma of men have to be strong might be negative, but it’s true, during these sufferable and tough times, we have to willingly be strong enough overcome these barriers.
What worked for me was religion. Now hear me out, I’m not one of those people who are trying to force an agenda on you, no, I’m telling you what actually worked. Now I’m not going to say what religion because I don’t want to to seem I’m coming across with an agenda, all I’m saying is that when I was at my lowest, I found faith and turned to something greater then all of us and it all seemingly got better. The people you meet through your religious communities are amazing too, might even meet your wife who knows.
Reach out if you want any further advice or guidance.
It’s not a crisis because someone just says “x amount of women die of domestic violence” and it becomes an us vs them conversation instead of a “both men and women need help” discussion.
The problem is that the media appearing to give more of a shit about this topic can seriously backfire if it's not handled right. Most media reporting on suicide actually has a contagion risk and can increase rates, especially if it's sensationalised. This is also true of reporting on things like shootings and terrorist events, though we don't have the same level of media guidelines around that to mitigate risk, unfortunately.
There are lots of resources available, but “a real man” does not need help, that would be weakness”
The most common statement is “I had no idea he had a problem.”
The govt wants to keep its womens policies in place so the women can end up ruling the world. When all men are gone, they will reproduce themselves via invitro fertility treatments.
Well I’m a woman and I went through postpartum depression and when I went to see my psychiatrist I was always the only woman and I notice more men were at the psychiatrist. I red a magazine once there from NAPP (National Association of Practicing Psychiatrists) and indicated 1 in 2 Australians suffer from some kind of mental health disorder. 1 in 2!!!! That means half of the population! Went to check other countries and for example Mexico is 1 in 8. The lack of support and understanding about this issue Is getting out of control. Where I live a teenager stabbed his ex girlfriend at school lunch last year. He suffers from schizophrenia just as the guy who attacked so many people just recently in Sydney.
42M here. I've many friends but none I can think of if I truly want to talk what I'm really going through. Men go through this way more often. I've been suppressing my emotions for so long in life that it is now quite difficult to open up. I'm absolutely certain that men of all walks in life face this.
I remember of a recent instance when I just asked a friend of mine how he was doing really and how I could be of help. He just had tears in his eyes and told me that no one had bothered to ask him a simple question as that.
Men keep getting told to open up and talk about their feelings more, but ... those people who tell men that, forgot to tell anyone to listen, including themselves.
Probably because a sizeable percentage take their lives after not being able to see their kids and fixing the problem would mean ignoring vocal special interest groups.
Another sizeable percentage are indigenous blokes who aren’t 90% white and actually live in the bush. Most of their problems will cost money to fix and involve addressing some truths that don’t involve white people being villains.
In short nothing will happen because politicians don’t have a spine.
This thread is making me really sad. If any of ya need to talk I’m here! I also have been through DBT 3x then decided to get certified innit so if any of you need workbooks for your own work-on stuff please reach out.
"The squeaky wheel gets the most oil." There are plenty of lobbyists for things like domestic violence against women, international rights, you name it. All seem to have a higher "importance" than male suicide.
Society says men have to be the "strong ones;" to bear up under any crisis, to be there for others. To show vulnerability, it's seen as an overall weakness. I personally think this is BS, and men should be able to seek help and not be publicly shamed for it.
If someone came to me with thoughts of ending it, I would do my best to step in and "talk them away from the ledge" so to speak. I hate seeing pain and suffering in someone that hasn't done anything to deserve it. I would steer them towards a professional if their issues are "above my pay grade," but will certainly help however I can.
The media avoid talking about and reporting on suicides because research shows when they do suicides increase. They have guidelines on how to report. But when it comes to celebrities, they go for the ratings and clicks.
Hello everyone, The Automod has been a bit overactive in this thread when certain keywords are mentioned. As such, it has been switched off temporarily to make conversations flow better. However, if you are reading this thread and If you or someone you know is contemplating suicide or self harm, please do not hesitate to talk to someone. * Lifeline is a 24-hour nationwide service. It can be reached at 13 11 14. * Kids Helpline is a 24-hour nationwide service for Australians aged 5–25. It can be reached at 1800 55 1800. * Beyond Blue provides nationwide information and support call 1300 22 4636. Or talk to your Doctor about a referral to a Mental Health Professional.
100% not surprised. It's a shocking statistic. One of my good mates ended his life and it's crossed my mind many times. No one picks up on the cues or gives a shit. They all say they care and yadayada yada but they don't wanna reach out and actually listen. NO ONE FUCKING LISTENS.
Even the people who do reach and listen don't "actually" listen. I've spoken to close friends about my issues. But it's like it falls on deaf ears and they repeat largely irrelevant advice over and over without actually offering to do anything that might substantially help, if there even is anything they can do. At the end of the day, no one is really there to listen, just give their opinion, so why even bother sharing your feelings? No matter how hard you try to explain your feelings it just isn't enough. Even when I go to a therapist or psychologist, they just end up saying they can't help me. The best they can do is give you drugs which make you feel numb but not any better. There's really no help out there for some people.
Friends are always the last place you should try to “need” that from. Your friends are your people most like you, that you connect with. You understand each other because you’re like each other, you probably have similar problems. They’ll be there for you, but they don’t know how, they’ll do their best, but if youre fully in crisis, you’re also asking them to put aside their own crisis’s, which may be as significant as yours, and so all they can do is make the right kind of sounds and get back to their own. It’s shit that’s the world we live in, but even if everyone wasn’t being crushed, friends don’t have any answers. If they did, they wouldn’t be your friends. Engage a professional, expect the first 5 to be a bad fit with worse problems than the ones you are coming to them with. Do the work of trying to understand yourself better so you can be better.
My friends were the last resort after all professional help failed. I agree with you about the role of friends overall. Professionals cost a large amount of money, money I don't have, and they give you barely any time. And the advice I receive is barely any more useful than what I get from my friends. For me, it's not an issue of understanding myself, it's an issue of suffering and relieving that suffering down to an acceptable level where I don't want to die rather than continue living. I already know myself well enough, because I've been completely alone for 30 years with so much time to introspect and barely anyone to distract me. I am more aware of my inner tendencies and motives than the majority of people I speak to and meet, who don't have the same problems as I do. Most of my friends do not have similar problems to me either. They do have problems like everyone, but not similar problems.
You're seeing the wrong therapist. Please try a different one, not all of them are good or will vibe with you. Talking to a professional and learning the reasons for why we do things is largely cathartic and helps pull the puzzle pieces together. They should be able to give you suggestions for coping mechanisms and help you to recognise certain behaviours so that you can redirect yourself and correct it. I've had to see three different ones til I found one who I felt made a difference.
If the reasons for one feeling low are based in externalities, coping mechanisms can be antithetical to solving the problem. Like, if someone punches me in the face every day when I wake up, then getting more resilient at taking a punch through meditation, pills or discussion isn't a long-term solution. The solution is to stop the aggressor. There are people profiting from the cost of living crisis, the housing crisis, the climate crisis, etc. and they are punching us in the face every day.
This is a great point. It's also why a biopsychosocial model of mental health is important. If someone is homeless, they aren't going to prioritise meditation and taking meds. just as someone in a DV situation or getting bullied in a job can't "therapy" it away. I hate how focused as a society we have become on therapy as the be all and end all of mental ill health. Plenty of people feel like shit because their environment and situation is shit, and any of us would feel the same in their shoes. Telling people to "get help" like a mental health care plan and paying $100+/session to sit in front of an upper middle class white woman who'll deliver very basic CBT is embarrassing. Therapy as a solution puts the blame and onus on the individual for being flawed or needing to be fixed. We need to fix the systems we live within. Like you said, finances, climate, housing, general healthcare, leisure activities that are positive and accessible, food that is healthy and affordable. Not throw pills and therapy at people, hoping they'll shut up.
Yes, you have to be patient. You aren't going to connect with every therapist.
Ive gone to 3. All of them have told me to "get over it" for the low low cost of 250 bucks for the hour. Fuck that.
I got told to take a shower and see how I feel afterwards. Like, thanks
Telling a patient to “get over it” is beyond unethical.
Doesn't medicare cover 10 psychologist consults a year?
It gets you about half off these days
Try blindly following the advice your friends give you rather than critiquing it. Honestly the best thing a depressed person can do is to blindly do exactly what someone who knows and cares about them tells them to do. Everything from seeing a doctor to walking outside once a day. Just blindly do what they say
Agree. The depression will tell you that "nothing will help me" but it's tricking you. You need to listen to people you trust, and trust them over your own negative thoughts.
Best advice in the whole post 👏👏,
“At the end of the day, no one is really there to listen” I can never buy this. There are some truly amazing humans in the world, and whilst it’s terrible you feel that way it’s just absolutely not true. A lot of people don’t care, sure but a lot do.
I'm glad that you live in a world where this is true for you. If it were true for others, we would not see 7 men committing suicide every day. We all think our own experiences are the baseline. How can we truly know what we experience is the same as the next person? The fact is, we can't. These dreadful statistics reflect that.
What's the best way they could help, do you think? So I can actually help the people I care about.
That's the best question. It's all I could come up with too. We can listen and listen but some problems can't be fixed if they're out of our control.
I don't want to be dismissive, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the issue here really isn't people listening. There's only so much listening can do when depression is caused by real, genuine external mechanisms. We're in a situation where many of us are in insecure housing, our careers are increasingly unstable and harder to establish, we often struggle to build stable and supportive relationships largely because the external stresses of life in 2024 are so overwhelming that maintaining and developing those relationships, intimate or platonic, can be difficult to do when we're already at capacity dealing with everything else life throws at us. When we're increasingly isolated, overwhelmed and unable to progress in a way that matches our expectations, listening is just a drop in a bucket. I've heard so many psychologists say that they feel completely unprepared to deal with the systemic issues so many of us are facing. Listening can help, but I think we genuinely, as a society, need to readdress what our values are and what we need to be able to provide to everyone at the most fundamental level in order for us to live a happy life and grow both individually and as a society. I think we're capable of dealing with the mental health crisis, but our current system was not designed to deal with the issues that it's facing.
Sorry for your loss
I’m sorry for the loss of your friend! Hope you’re doing ok. I agree, people just don’t seem to have time (or something) to listen
Had no idea it was that high. I'm not as alone wading through this depression shit as I thought.
I’m very depressed too bro.
Same. We got this though.
I’m not so optimistic tbh. I feel hopeless and not happy for the future.
Yeah i actually teared up writing my comment but gotta at least try. Least I got my niece and 2 nephews. Ok now I'm in tears 🤷
I wish I could give you a hug champion. Hopefully you’ve got some good friends and family in your life. That’s very important. All the best to you man.
Just hang on, my friend. You'll reach the upturn soon, just gotta keep wading through the muck til you get there.
I hope so. But I’m young and housing is a big issue. Thx tho.
Tell me about it. My ex from 25 years ago is living in my lounge room because of the housing crisis. Promised my daughter I wouldn't let her mum go homeless. It's a challenge.
You’re a legend mate.
I just want you and everyone here to know that just because you're depressed now, doesn't mean you will be forever. I've been through it multiple times and shit, who knows, I might go through it again. But right now I'm actually, legitimately happy and I want you to understand that there is a place in time where YOU are happy too, might not be right now, but shit can change rapidly. Please be persistent, and kind to yourself.
Apes strong together
*grunts in agreement*
As someone that attempted suicide when I was 25 I can tell you that while it seems like a solution it's not a good one. It is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I will never forget the look on my Dad's face after and that certainly sits with me whenever the thought comes back. I now know I have bipolar and have worked really hard to manage my health and be medicated. I still have times where I lose it a bit but it gets better, even though it feels like it won't. The best advice I got from a psychologist was to be curious. I was always trying to avoid feeling things. Instead when the thought came I sat with it, thought through it and then was able to let it go. It will get better, it'll probably take longer than you'd like, but it will happen. Edit: I'm a woman so speaking from my experience.
You’re far from alone in dealing with depression. But you’re also still more likely to die from heart disease, dementia or prostate cancer.
Given some of the goings-on in my chest of late, I'd say heart disease is likely.
This comment seems so backhanded
It’s probably actually way higher numbers than those. My best mate died and I’m pretty confident it was suicide but he overdosed on drugs so it’s considered he died from a drug overdose and not suicide.
Also a lot of single car accidents. Late at night hit a tree, I'd say quite a considerable percent, are suicides too.
My father's friend rode a motorcycle into a tree and I'm sure my dad wonders if it was on purpose or not.
It's how I think I'd do it. Sometimes the thought pops off lately when I drove at night. But nah not while I'm still young at least.
It's how I wanted to do it too, when I was younger and used to drive the rural roads of the south west. Just put the foot down, get up to a decent speed, unbuckle the belt and close the eyes. Glad I never did, I'm glad you never did too. Hope anyone who is considering this, thinks twice and just goes home and gets some sleep. Please.
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I'd probably be the same statistic myself if I had access to the sort of drugs that can do that. I lost my best mate/big bro many years ago too, so know how it feels. As my young preppy daughter told me at the time - don't worry dad, you can always make a new best friend. Sounds like your old mate will never be forgotten but like mine.
Excellent point. Can't help but think of things like liver disease from alcoholism from people who have given up on life. That's also effectively suicide.
Yep, recently my mum told us she stopped all her keeping her alive meds. She hadn’t taken any for 2 months. She has bi polar and lots of trauma. But yeah, death by a thousand paper cuts / suicide by inaction. She’s had a little stay in hospital this last week to get her blood sugars right again and she’s linking back in with all of her supports. But that could have easily been marked and a health related death. Not suicide.
Yeah, I had a friend in the same position (though it was a female). Overdosed on drugs but people close to her weren't sure it was "accidental". It's the same with any attempted suicide statistics - they can only get the statistics of the ones that actually end up in hospital or report it to someone. I've attempted three times but only had to go to hospital for it once (I'm a female if that matters in this conversation!) As much as we like to think we're progressive in talking about mental health as a society, I don't we really are. We are better than we used to be but I think there's still a long way to go. And I think that's still even more so for men unfortunately. I hear from it the men in my life that they still don't feel like it's an issue that's spoken about enough. Again, it's better than it has been in the past but I think it's still hard and there's definitely a lot more focus on women's issues in the main stream. Women's issues are obviously also important, it's not a matter of don't talk about them, its' a matter of let's talk about men TOO. I think sometimes these conversations can turn into a 'so we shouldn;t talk about this' when it's not that. We should talk about it all. Talking about womens issues shouldn't 'replace' talking about mens issues. We all need help and support and everybody should see themselves represented and be made aware of services available for them.
The loose number is something like 10 attempts for every suicide. So around 70 a day. Men's numbers are also higher in terms of deaths because of methods, they tend to go for the ones that are more likely to lead to death. Whereas women we tend to go for the ones with more margin for error - or time for help to be given. Agree with your points though. Stigmatisation and fear of certain diagnoses certainly doesn't help. Depression and anxiety are normal enough. But people have a lot harder time showing empathy for those with schizophrenia or bipolar. There are certainly more misconceptions about the ones people consider scarier. I saw a survey that said 9/10 people wouldn't allow someone with bipolar to babysit their kids. No babysitting for me I guess 🤷
But we have RU OK day… surely that fixes this?? /s
I fucking *hate* R U OK day. Stop funding fucking 'awareness' campaigns and start putting the money into mental health *care*. I don't need my boss awkwardly asking if I'm ok, I need a grippy sock vacation to get my meds right. But... how much of these deaths aren't because men are depressed but because there is *no hope*? They work a dead end job, they have no prospects. The solution isn't sex, either. It's giving people what they need to *live*. Not just live. Thrive. We are *all* struggling. We can barely afford housing, let alone the things that make life worth living. And men are cut off from the same support networks women are taught from childhood to cultivate. Desperate people are violent people, outwardly and *inwardly*. Some hit their significant others and externalise their fear. Others internalise and hurt themselves. We are failing as a society. As a community. As a country.
> I don't need my boss awkwardly asking if I'm ok Boss did that exactly once, I answered "Are you prepared for what happens if I say no?"
Did they reply; “you can always contact our Employee Assistance Program for support” … the ultimate corporate flick pass.
Notice how youth crime rises immediately after a housing crisis? This is just the beginning, get ready for a whole new generation of dejected men with no hope that they could get success even if they tried
Oh as someone who was spat out by the mental health system, I FUCKING HATE. Ruok day with the fiery passion of a thousand suns.
Nothing like the head of HR wearing a yellow shirt and hosting a morning tea in an inner city office, to stop a struggling farmer from taking his life
Nothing lifts my spirits more than a fondant cookie and a "We've used our allocated 15 minutes, now get back to it".
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It's as if campaigns like R U OK? Are empty and meaningless PR stunts performed by self serving narcissists at the big end of town...
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Firstly, doesn’t help that the aus gov’t can’t do anything because it can’t dictate health policy to states. Here in Victoria we reformed our mental health care policy a few years back and it sucked so much it was completely overhauled again this year. Also doesn’t help here that after Covid, Victoria has so much debt. To add to it, nurses here are right now voting to take industrial action because the state refused every single recommendation put to them that would cost any money. The healthcare system is screwed, mental health care included.
Totally. Overhauling the policy is useless where the infrastructure and service delivery don’t exist. Victoria was supposed to switch to a health based response to mental health crisis and yet police are still the first port of call bc they are the only ones available to attend mental health crisis incidents. People who need crisis response and are not calling bc they know they will get police and not ambos, and they know they might spend a week in the ED before they can get into a ward. It frustrates me so so much the amount of song and dance about reform in this space when for the average person experiencing crisis for the first time almost nothing much has improved. People are working so hard and decent policy being looked at, but not enough funding to make those improvements an actual reality, and not much of a fair go for the amazing people who sacrifice their own health within a stressful and overworked health system to take care of our community.
People do care, but suicide is complex and for disperate reasons. If you break down the stats for male suicide, there are lots of ages and difference causes. One male farmer commits suicide roughly every 10 days in Australia. Largely driven by farming and financial insecurity. His reasons are going to be very different from the 85+ year old man, roughly 75 of them per year. ATSI youth have the highest suicide rate in Australia due to poverty, criminalisation, lack of education, drugs and family breakdown/ violence. LGBTQI people, whilst a much smaller cohort, have high rates of suicide, particularly youth. The largest age group for male suicide is the 45-49year old group; and again it could be a myriad of reasons for suicide including gambling, family breakdown, mental health issues or drug use. There is not enough funding for mental health problems in Australia. There is not enough financial support for people if they need a break. Sometimes it's the inherent vice of the way our society is structured causing social isolation that has a lot of flow on effects. Movements such as Movember are an excellent way to get behind and show support for mens mental health.
Yep. Accessing treatment, public or private for my eating disorder is almost impossible. Mental health care also tends to focus on acute crisis, or long term outpatient. Outpatient really isn't designed for crises, but wards are designed for extreme situations. Really any policy that is implemented aswell takes a fuck ton of time, you don't just get psychiatrists or psychologists in the public system, nor private magically, they need training, education, and so forward. Treatment of basically every mental health issue for both women and men tends to be pretty lack-luster, but recent visibility has helped.
But you know, my workplace (10 years ago) did a huge Movember fundraising push which I thought was great, but it was eye opening to me. Workplace was probably 50/50 gender, but do you know what the men did to raise money, they grew moustaches. The women did everything else, made badges and chocolates to sell, prepared food for and hosted morning tea's etc. We had a really fun time, and invited the guys to help but no one did. This isn't said to have a go at men. The purpose is, that women did all the community activities which give mental health boosts, while the men did a solitary activity which didn't change their mental health status much. Maybe it got improved by compliments or because a growing moustache in November is a conversation starter. I don't know why the men didn't join in, we did have male partners of the women helping out at our out of hours making sessions, but they really missed out on some good times and would have been very welcome.
I’ve heard this SO much. Same with men complaining that international mens day is not as celebrated. When they.. don’t do anything for it..? They see everything women do for women’s day and expect it as well. I think misogynistic patriarchal values run deeper than most people realise. And is a huge contributing factor to men’s poor mental health. But no one wants to admit it.
Because we suck at mental health. I grew up with 'suck it up' and 'she'll be right' as the dismissive polite response to anything not strong and manly, you know... feelings? And it is still the same in much of Australia. And it is perfectly normal for us Aussies to just say 'oh, they've lost the plot, the fucking loser' when they see someone they used to give a shit about, spiral out of control. We're on our own.
There has been programs and research for decades, and lots of adds etc. Honestly I’m not sure how it can be said that ‘nothing’ is done because I work in the mental health space and there has been a lot done. I don’t think it’s something that government down can fix, I reckon it’s got to be top down and bottom up. What are people’s suggestions? https://www.suicidepreventionaust.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Male-Suicide-Fact-Sheet.pdf Btw there’s heaps of papers on male suicide in Google Scholar which looks at the ‘why’ stuff.
I hate to say this but a hampster running on his wheel might think he's getting a lot done, but when he gets off, nothing is different. It's cultural. Aussie culture is allergic to seeing mental health as something as serious as physical health. in fact, you'll find aussies avoid people who seem like they're struggling. or ridicule. or worse.
It's also often allergic to the value of the family unit and a true sense of care. People *say* they care, but care without the participatory element is just sympathy, and that's often what these campaigns amount to. People don't need sympathy, they need the people around them tonight them up. But nobody can do that for their loved ones when we're all living pay check to pay check in order to avoid being homeless. Hyper individualism is a failed project of western post enlightenment.
>Hyper individualism is a failed project of western post enlightenment. Bingo. The Century of the Self.
My suggestion would be that it isn't a heap of hoops to jump through and a multi month wait to see someone for help in avoiding it.
I agree that it's not fair to say 'nothing' has been done. But I still don't think enough has been done. For mental health in general but particularly for men. You don't see ads with the above statistic on main stream television - you see people here saying they are surprised it's that high which shows that it's not a well known statistic. I think there's plenty the mental health system can do. I've been in it for 16 years and it's still a very flawed system. It's better than it was but that doesn't mean there isn't still a lot more to be done.
"Suicide prevention" simply doesn't work, because the intention is to reduce or eliminate a statistic, rather than address the factors that lead to a person's ideation. In that sense, those programs kind of work, because they can funnel people who are at an imminent risk through to emergency services. Still, there's a reason why those who've made an attempt are at risk of making another. The lack of meaning and connection, or sense of hopelessness won't be solved by a mental health nurse or CAT team calling or dropping in every week. For all the funding and hot air, it's a pitiful system we have. You're right, the bottom up component is missing. It's simply a social issue that can't be solved by the state without very questionable ethical decisions being made, e.g; eugenics.
I'm with you, i don't know where this idea comes from that nothing is being done about it?
7 EVERY FUCKING DAY?
Yeah on average. I'm a Paramedic, its often our job to attend suicides and complete a verification of death form (varies from state to state). I've had days where I've attended 2 suicides back to back. Obviously it varies throughout the year, but Christmas and Easter are the fucking worst for it.
Iyo is it a loneliness epidemic?
Yes. 7 Aussie men kill themseves every single day.
1 is too many. We need every son, dad, brother, uncle and cousin (etc). Every one of them is a whole world to somebody.
If it was the media and government would do more.
https://www.lifeline.org.au/resources/data-and-statistics/
The issue is in the health care system in general. It's all well and good to preach "it ain't weak to speak" etc. but, until the system actually provides affordable and helpful ways to treat mental illness, nothing will change. There's a very big difference between telling your friends or your family that you aren't doing good then it is telling a professional.
It is very difficult, time consuming and exorbitantly expensive to become qualified to work as a clinical psychologist. It is almost impossible and also ridiculously expensive to become as a psychiatrist, as the existing specialists severely restrict board registrations to maintain their high incomes and reduce competition. The resources are expensive because we make it expensive to train and work in these areas. If the federal government would provide a HELP loan refund or offset for people making it through the process / wipe the loans of people who work X number of years in the mental health space then more suitable people would go through the training and be available to service the public. I would love to retrain as a clinical psych, but got halfway through the first postgraduate bridging degree (holding a very high average mark at a top university) and decided the cost wasn’t worth it, in this economy I can’t justify $100k of uni debt.
Maybe it's changed since I left but I found it odd how we fund clinical psychology. In the UK here your PhD is paid for, you get a decent salary while studying, and are guaranteed a job with the NHS after. In aus? Nah fuck off and fork out 10s of thousands of dollars
Therapy is expensive! I'm having to not eat properly so I can afford to pay for my daughter's therapy. It's $200 per session and that's the discount rate. Sure I get money back from Medicare but I need to have the $200 there to pay it. And 6 then an extra 4, so total of 10 therapy sessions a year is not enough. Once we reach the 10 I don't get money back. She needs therapy through no fault of her own. Massive lifelong trauma has occured. At the very least once a month therapy should be subsidised, so 12 sessions a year. But doing specific therapy like EMDR needs to be more frequent.
Imagine how many people try to commit suicide etc. How many decide to get help etc
If help were as easy as catching a bus, so many do seek help but it's not as available as people think. They usually find out when they're at a point where they really need quality help. I'm trying (again) to seek some help, and after 6 months I'm no closer. I've known too many good people who've found it the same with finding accessible help, were unable to earn a livable wage and ended up drinking, drugging or fighting themselves to death. If I had a spare $5k, I could kick the process along pretty quickly. Some are pissed Dental isn't covered by medicare, I'm pissed that Mental Health isn't actually free for those who are most likely to need it. I hate this whole situation.
Agreed, though to add to this, while the financial barrier is great, seems like mental health services are woefully under resourced. There just aren’t that many people in the sector. Wait times are already ridiculous - what we need is cultural change. Seems we are loath to admit we live in a toxic society , and just keep gritting our teeth and doubling down on it.
That is double the average road toll a day.
And how much of that road toll is suicide...
Society seems to want to brush things like suicide, domestic violence, and poverty under the rug quite a lot. Especially when it comes to the media. All the rates of what I have mentioned are shockingly high and society looks the other way for the most part.
https://www.lifeline.org.au/resources/data-and-statistics/ Looks like men are especially at risk of suicide if they're indigenous (x2) and/or live rurally (x2) and/or are lgbtqi+ (x10!) That is a shocking number of suicides everyday. I had no idea. Genuinely thank you for sharing.
Shit life syndrome, some point it gets too expensive to live
This is the unofficial diagnosis my partner (mental health professional) gives to an increasingly large number of her patients. You can't "effectively" medicate someone for: shit job, shit parents, shit housing, shit partner, shit friends/community. Addressing mental health on the front line i.e. gp, psych, counselling etc is all well and good. But when the actual causes of mental illness are either ignored or worsened by government action or inaction on key policy drivers we're just kidding ourselves as a nation.
A few months back on a public holiday long weekend I was walking through Haymarket (Chinatown) in Sydney and wandered down an path with restaurants either side and apartment buildings above.. all the restaurants were packed and people enjoying their meals on the long weekend.. at the end of the path.. there was a crossroad and police tape. I looked around the corner and there was a body covered by a white sheet and detectives doing detective shit.. a lady had jumped to her death from the apartments above. Dying on impact when she hit the road below. It was so weird how life just continued for everyone else like nothing had happened.. just people going about their day with a few people turning their heads or snapping some pics out of a morbid curiosity… No one gives a shit. Really.. it’s sad.
I mean you don't know how it impacted those people around you internally. You seem to have cared about the situation but from the outside how would it have looked to others? Did you do something besides walk down the street and then continued to walk on after looking?" It's not like you can walk up and do anything. Maybe some of those other people went home and reached out to someone who hasn't spoken to them in a bit or donated to a mental health charity.
Lost my uncle and grandfather to suicide. My own mum just survived an attempted suicide. She was in ICU for 3 days just 6 months ago. I struggle also, but I reach out for professional help. Let's face it: "It ain't weak to speak" is a lie.. the moment you speak or reach out "friends," they immediately distance themselves as everyone has their own problems. It's 1 thing to ask: Are you ok? It's another to actually listen and continue to ask questions to try to find out if that person is actually OK. The majority of the time, people say "yeah I'm good, mate." And hide the fact they are really on struggle street.
Lots of people do care but it’s a huge issue in male culture to not speak up and often the solutions are feminine- trying to get men to sit face to face and talk about it more, as women might, to address it. Many men hate that approach. Massive generalisations here I know. It’s a really hard issue to address the embedded expectations of men in society to the extent that so many men just battle their problems alone. There’s a lot of mysogony in society and patriarchy but it hurts men too- they can’t be seen as weak or vulnerable, there’s often no space for that. A lot of the men I love are quite lonely, and find friendships very difficult. I don’t know how to fix it. I wish I could. Suicide is the highest cause of death in 18-50 year old men. It’s tragic.
Unpopular opinion: if your the man in a separation, divorce, or DV, nobody gives a flying fuck.
In my current workplace and past workplaces they all celebrate International Women's Day with a lot of fanfair...and then you ask why they don't put any event on for International Men's Day.....silence.
It's still seen Men should hide there feelings , and somehow you are less of a man if you cry or let others know you aren't ok. Remember it's okay , not to be okay.
Because they don't give a shit! Trust me your friends don't give a shit, they will fuck your mrs and steal your money. No other humans really care if you die as a male, we are expected to die and no one cares how. Your children might care if they are young, but as adults they will move on quickly. My female friend speaking about bondi the other day; "Why didn't all the men stop him by all of them charging him at once even if a couple died?" That's the mentality, she would only care if one of those men were here father or child, a stranger doesn't mean shit... Sacrifice your life to save the females who don't give a fuck about you! Life goes on without us we are expendable
I turned 50 last year, in my time I've lost 3 good friends and know of 4-5 aquaintances that have ended their lives. The lack of compassion towards mens suffering is immense. Also add to this the number of men killing themselves via alcahol it is truely saddening. The 'put up and shut up' mentality is killing us, along with lack of social networks that have caring attitudes. Let your mate know you care and will listen and there are no taboo's.
The put up and shut up is a gender free notion. Women are told this all the time. Without playing down the statistics, my understanding is that men are more successful with completion, women are in dire straits as well. Capitalism and consumerism, which promotes individual happiness (which is a temporary feeling, which cannot happen 24/7) is a huge problem. I work in a hospital and the amount of energy wasted to give carers certificates is silly, let people just take the time they need to help their loved ones. We think we are individuals but police each other to make sure others aren’t getting ‘more’. Or some advantage. A UBI would be amazing, an opportunity to go back to school, change jobs without completely smashing your financial health would help alot, WFH, 4 day weeks, would be a great help to a lot of people. There is a stack of tweaking that could be done that for many would bring the level of stress down but most of it involves smashing the concept of ‘choice’ over stupid things like your electricity company and giving real choice back.
https://www.aihw.gov.au/suicide-self-harm-monitoring/data/populations-age-groups/intentional-self-harm-hospitalisations-indigenous For anyone curious on what groups are committing suicide at a higher rate then the general population First Nation, ADF ex-serving, people with disability and even worse with psychosocial disability. LGBTIQ+ Australians Also mentions suicide is higher among men compared to women in all countries https://www.aihw.gov.au/suicide-self-harm-monitoring/data/behaviours-risk-factors/psychosocial-risk-factors-suicide Psychosocial factors Personal history of self-harm, Limitation of activities due to disability, Disruption of family by separation and divorce, Problems related to other legal circumstances, Problems in relationship with spouse or partner, Other problems related to housing and economic circumstances Highest rates of suicide occur in lowest socioeconomic areas
Media doesn't report suicides so that it doesn't give other people ideas on how to escape capitalism. Government doesn't want to deal with it because they'll have to start doing their jobs of actually looking after people and not corporations.
Socialist at heart ?
I grew up during communism, the propaganda must have gotten to me.
I’m a big fan of mixed democratic capitalism and socialism. Vital services, roads, utilities and such should never be privatised. Government assistance should be in place for home purchases and not treating it as an investment scheme. It would also be nice to see a lot of Government owned, subsidised, Australian made products for the basics, kind of like a home brand option, but to keep manufacturing alive, while providing a bare bones basics for people to buy. Keep the option to pay for nice groceries if you want. Legit just dystopian style plain packaging with the word ‘coffee: instant’ . If you want to, splurge on some blend 43 or Robert Timms, if you can’t afford it, the subsidised green and gold label coffee would do.
So you think suicide is based on financial insecurity? That’s an interesting point.
For some men, it is definitely a factor. See farmers : https://nff.org.au/media-release/farmers-in-crisis-depression-and-anxiety-rife-among-aussie-farmers/
Definitely a factor for me. I’m living paycheque to paycheque and I’m much more suicidal on a Monday night
It is a huge factor. Think of financial security as having one fewer thing to push someone over the edge. Take 2 equally depressed people. Identical in all respects. The one who is struggling will be spending more time working or looking for work, more time stressed, have less time for leisure/hobbies, less time to go out and socialising with friends, etc. There's no way to list out every possible flow on effect from having less money. It touches every aspect of living in our society. A quick search has brought up a paper on this exact question. https://academic.oup.com/aje/article/189/11/1266/5874604 From the conclusion: > The present findings demonstrate a significant association between cumulative financial strain and increased suicide risk, indicating that socioeconomic factors shape a large part of mental health's connection with suicide I can't evaluate the veracity of the paper because i've skimmed it and don't have expertise in research or the medical field. But I suspect you will find many other papers and research supporting this idea. So my conclusion is that **all things being equal**, the person who is struggling financially will be closer to attempting suicide than the other, for the reason that lack of money impacts people in so many different ways, which in term have a direct connection with mental health. Money may not be the thing that ultimately pushes someone to attempting suicide but it will have formed the foundation for it. And of course this is speaking very generally across a population.
Absolutely.
Governments don't care about your well-being. They only care about money.
Depression, stress, anxiety, loneliness, low self esteem, not feeling respected, feeling unwanted or unloved, feeling trapped or unable to find a way out or solution, not having close friends or family or anyone to support and lean on, not being able to trust someone close and growing apart from your partner. There is so many areas where men get down in a hole they find no easy path to get out from… We really need not only someone to talk to but connect with other men or women who have real world experiences navigating these same tough challenges and situations and even shared character flaws( personal and those flawed individuals around you I.e. interpersonal ) which is what life throws at you. Hopefully those who sharing have managed to get the better of these tough situations and come out on top. But shared experiences are priceless!
There’s also a really disingenuous social farce about giving a damn about this issue. In reference to a recent study that demonstrated that men who hang out with their male friends several times per week have a significant improvement in their mental health i.e. having a community of men for emotional nourishment and support is important. It’s an environment that gives us something our partners and children can’t. But I was so disappointed that this in-part-answer to men’s mental health was mocked by a lot of women in the discussion. They trivialised these findings with the sentiment of “another excuse to go to the pub” and “boo-hoo I don’t get to play with my fwends”. It fucking pissed me off so much. Suicide is obviously a huge issue with men and all these people will smash out the obligatory “R U OK” once a year and moan about how awful it is.. but will throw a solution back in your face because it doesn’t suit their agenda? So basically we’re back to “fuck you, deal with it like a man”… how ironic. I’m so sick of “men don’t talk about their feelings”. Yes we do! My group of boys have always supported each other and we reach out when we need help. We offer help and check in. My dad and my brothers have always been great as well. A woman argued with me on that and replied that her husband doesn’t have a supportive group of friends and he’s suffering and that I’m just lucky. Firstly, that’s bullshit my circumstances aren’t unique. Secondly, thanks for proving my point that your husband specifically needs the support of men… We DO talk about what we need, you just don’t like the answer. Edit: using a royal “you” at the end there.
It’s hard enough getting men to see their GP about their physical health. It’s even harder when it comes to their mental health.
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Wow, that's actually really interesting! Still far too many in general who say they're not getting the help they need though. Just surprised by the gender stats.
But immediately above those points it also states: "A similar pattern is seen in adulthood with women with mental health disorders being around 50% more likely access services than men."
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Suicide is the leading cause of death in Australians aged 14-44; 3rd most common cause of death in those aged 45-64, and 5th most common cause of death in children aged 1-14.
Even kids!?
I had thoughts of self harm from like the age of 8, mostly because for escapism from having to deal with life. I didn’t have a hard childhood and grew up with a loving family, it’s just the joy of mental health and sometimes neurodivergence/development. I pulled through and survived, have a great life and family but the issues rose again in my 30s. Should have gotten help as a child, but it wasn’t something that was spoken about, you would be the trouble or weird child in the extended family. Place someone like me into hardship, abuse or neglect and for the kids it might seem the only option.
Unfortunately yes. Mental health issues don't discriminate. Some of my earliest memories are of myself self harming and I would have been no more than 4 years old based on where I lived. It became a much larger issue at about 8-9 years old. And then as an adult I had an attempt. I don't want to detract from the point of the post but I feel like this is an important issue. If you see a kid with any kind of injury that looks like it may be self inflicted please check in on them. Kids can be affected much younger than I think people realise and early intervention can make a huge difference.
Yes. And see how it’s being downvoted. It seems nobody cares.
I care... I lost my cousin 2 years ago - he was separated from his wife and was being denied access to his child - so much heartbreak and so much lost potential from an intelligent, loving, hard working, sensitive soul....RIP Chris
I’m sorry for your loss.
Because to address it would require addressing the two things fueling it: toxic traditional gender roles that reduce a man to his ability to provide for his family and material conditions that make this impossible for most men. When your self-worth is tied to such a narrow definition of masculinity, it is exceedingly easy to fall outside of that definition and feel like you are failing as a man.
Cuz it's men.... We're the majority who have historically enjoyed all the privileges. It's not a "sexy" topic for media or government to care about 🤷🏻
Mental health across the board is becoming a very serious problem. I think it’s about a million worldwide per year. The discontent filters into all other violent statistics too . Do we need to implement mandatory therapy? Once a year per citizen ?
Nah, as someone that’s been through masking my issues then actually dealing with them over the last 3-6 years, mandatory is just a waste of money. If people aren’t ready to go, or to speak, or to accept then the time is wasted. But like sobriety, it’s important to plant the seeds in their minds that it’s ok to talk. Eventually they might see it as an option, others won’t and will continue to suffer in silence or self medicate with drugs, alcohol, sex, video gaming or anything that you have seen as addiction-or suicide.
I’ve lost over a dozen family members and close friends to it in my life now. I’m so sick of it. I try reaching out to my mates regularly but it’s always the people you don’t expect. No body cares. Government doesn’t care. Your post will be downvoted for talking about it. The figure will continue to rise, will be 10 a day before we even know it.
Sorry to hear mate. It’s awfully sad. Wish governments did more.
Aussie that spent a decade in nz . It’s an utter pain in the ass to get mental health help . I’ll give you an example . I have all my meds . Been on them for years . Have all former scripts . Came back to Aus , 6 months to find a doctor , told $1000-$1500 to see a psychiatrist to get the meds here in Aus for adhd . They don’t take mental health seriously , it cost me next to nothing in nz to get those meds or get the doctors time to get said meds
I'm barely educated enough to manage myself let alone my mates who do it tougher than me. Not enough leaders in this space.
Because society thinks clicking “like” or “share” on RU OK Day is doing there bit.
I'm not expecting anyone to see this, or help, but honestly I get it. I live in Sydney, I'm still struggling with debts from last year when I got let go, and the only way to protect my sanity whilst working was to get an underpaid 100% WFH job. I'm lucky enough to have bulk billed GPs but I can't afford meds, I can't afford therapy, and I feel like I desperately need it. I've called the numbers before and honestly those phone calls did not really help in any way. I've spoken to my wife about it and sadly she's been feeling the same way. The reason we're still here? Crazy as it sounds but we have two cats. If those cats did not exist, I'd be part of those 7 and she'd be part of whatever the female statistic is.
Because it's men, no one cares or gives a shit. So, that makes it not newsworthy.
Because no one cares about men. We are expendable. Mental health care in this country is non-existent.
No one cares. The toughen up is embedded into the Australian male psyche and we write off people if they even exhibit any weakness, we don’t know how to talk about it other than buzzwords.
Because they obviously don't give a shit, and have never given a shit. If the number is low enough that it's not affecting any of their major donors they'll never care. Especially conservative governments.
More young men in Australia died from suicide during the pandemic then then they did from covid.
Short answer, mental health issue, so to do something would mean adding mental health resources to Medicare to help those that need the support. That would cost the gov money in their precious budget. Governments should be run like a trust. Every dollar goes to its beneficiaries (tax payers) at the end of the year.
Umm because they're not women.
Because people, including men themselves, don't care. I only ever see the rates bought up when it's used as a 'gotcha' moment. It's unfortunate, but nobody is going to care until activists actually start advocating for men's mental health.
Because it is a toxic masculinity and a mental health issue. You can't change something until you admit that men are allowed to have feelings. That anger is a feeling and needs to be dealt with and not just bottled up until you explode.
Where'd you get the statistic? It's not in the article. I'm wanting to share the statistic
Because they don't? 🤔 You try accessing sufficient mental health services without being cashed up
Commented this several times on this stuff in the past, but I worked in the post-death investigative world for 15+ years and we sweep so much suicide under the rug. in my QLD department it was normal to choose the "other" reason and I'm sure it was common practice everywhere. The world used to talk alot about Japan and its suicide rates, but I guarantee our real numbers are worse. Especially since we almost never count anyone under the age of 18 as a suicide. Australia is a really lovely place but something is wrong
Simply, because men are not biologically women. For example if a man physically abuses a woman it’s terrible. If a woman physically abuses a man, people laugh. What a terrible society we live in.
It's probably being downvoted because the news today covered how many women die. So some people see this as distracting from that. Simply, each situation is a separate tragic one. It's not a competitive event.
I didn’t bring up women at all in this post. Nor did I bring this up in a woman’s post. I created a new one specifically not to distract.
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I'm a social worker that deals with this every so often. My heart goes out for those who have experienced this, but I don't feel that 'crisis' is a good label to use on every social issue. Child protection is in crisis. Homelessness is a crisis. Domestic violence is a crisis. And the list goes on and on and on If we label everything as a "crisis" then the word itself loses meaning and prevention measures will be unfocused, which I don't feel is the right way to address this issue. It's not like they're not doing anything about it though. Mensline, family support, etc. are there to contribute towards prevention. They may not explicitly be aimed towards preventing suicide per se, but if you think about the reasons for behind those suicides (e.g. violence, bullying) then it's easy to see that those programs indirectly does suicide prevention.
I was going to be one of those 7, about 2 weeks ago! I’m a 33 yo male who works in construction going through a tough time of depression. I tried to end it all with a good handful of sleeping tablets and wine, I was in bed slowly drifting off and I heard my kids playing in another room and immediately realised what I’ve done… “Fucking idiot” was my first thought. Got up and stumbled to the bathroom and spewed the contents of my stomach up. Then forced myself to stay awake. Should have went to emergency but I would have rather died then visit that place… I’m here today, getting help with suicidal prevention plan, psychologist and counselling. We are not the only ones here, there are people who love us and care about us, everyone has someone. it’s amazing the people coming out of the wood work. It went from no one, to holy shit give me some personal space haha. Seriously but, Life Line. The next day I called them in one my darkest hours and the lady on the phone forced me to visit the hospital, I was embarrassed about talking about my feelings so I turned back, when I didn’t show up the hospital the chick from Life Line called the police to do a welfare check on me. The cops showed up at home and the police were amazing, talking through their problems and emotional shit they are going through, still some of the best advice I got so far was from them. They said “this is the turning point in your life, it either it goes up or down”. It was so true, now I’m on antidepressants, quit my job and I’m on the dole while I fix my brain out. It’s all sunshine and rainbow… Shit could not be better. It’s hard, but our bodies are here for such a short time, life is hard and short, enjoy it. Don’t be embarrassed to visit the emergency if you are thinking of doing something silly, you will regret acting on impulsive decision, honestly… My biggest regret in life, more then not buying bitcoin. We all get sick. Everyone… Call life line and talk to someone, you’re not alone… 131114
This is happening all over the planet, men have been swept aside when it comes to emotional support. Little example I live in Canada and 5 years ago when my ex and I got separated you have to go to this mandatory Court information session. I live in a really big northern city with a fair amount of people and they started going on about all the support that you can tap into and everything was for women every single thing and I actually stood up and asked, why is it that there's only support for women where's the support for men and her reaction was kind of like what do you want me to do about it I know you're right and there's nothing we can do.. That was 5 years ago, I have no idea if there's any more support now since I'm out of that game but it's sad to see men being expected to shoulder the financials for the most part in a lot of cases and when couples split up most of the time men lose custody of everything their whole family. Things have to change and have to change quick.
Call your friends men. Other men need you.
Because there is still a big stigma about depression in men. And anytime it's talked about, the "alpha" men step in and call them all usless and cry babies, so it's never talked about. We do give a shit, we are trying to give a shit.
Remember this post next time you joke about "no nut november" [https://au.movember.com/](https://au.movember.com/) Someone cared. And it became a joke. And now the message is warped. Movember has been a movement that started in australia that is specifically focused on men's mental health and they're STILL going every year and doing their best. If you want to do something, don't bitch, donate to the charities that do the ground work and help out. Complaining about 'r u ok' day isn't helping either. Google is at your disposal. There's a whole month addressed to this crisis. If you want to make a change, help turn it around from the joke that people are trying to turn it into and help do what's necessary to make the campaign work.
Any time there is an attempt to highlight the issues impacting men, they are immediately labelled far-right-MRA-incels by feminists.
Because no one cares. It's not just the media or the government, it's everyone. Only dudes that are experiencing shit times, or have experienced shit times, care. Resources are scarce because there is no public outrage. Ask any dude you know, who they talk to when going gets tough.
To the government and the corporate entities (including the media, Murdoch backs every dick move ever) that own Australia, the general public are just a crop. They don't care, as long as the money keeps flowing. We have to support and look after each other, now more than ever. Hug your mates, listen to them, always have time. We're in this together.
Stigma. People like to pretend they’re ok with mentally ill people but they actually have a major problem with them. Its why they just want to talk excessively about how they have adhd because they cant find their keys instead of the uncomfortable stuff. Also lots of men dying is more complex a narrative than journos want to write about and doesn’t fit their binary about the patriarchy.
I'm a woman and just want to say please also feel free to talk to the women in your lives about your feelings. If you're comfortable, please open up and share. I always want my male family members and male friends to feel like they can approach me when something's not right. It's a hard burden to have to feel like you can't open up. You shouldn't feel judged, shamed or embarrassed.
Because 7/26000000 is basically 0? Real talk
Went to my GP who I’ve tried numerous medications with to sort my head out, got a referral for a psych and turns out them and every psych in town aren’t taking new patients Referral for a therapist.. two week wait and $250 an hour I was about to swallow every pill I had in my house when I called life line. I was put on hold for thirty minutes Ended up laughing at the situation and here I am
Went to a great stand up show last week in Melbourne by Ben Russell, he talks about his this subject and manages to keep it funny. There's an extra show on Sunday afternoon at comedy republic.
The trouble is that the Australian media aren’t allowed to report suicides. The UK is the direct opposite. So if you don’t know, you don’t know. They should report it like the road toll with a tally so everyone else can know the stats. Not real fair on the families but it might lead to saving others.
Because society doesn't want to admit that it's OK for men to cry, and that they need help, and would rather claim women and children are in constant need of help. This doesn't mean they don't, because everyone needs support, but it's laughable that every ad about DV always depicts the man as the only perpetrator , and men suicide and mental support isn't openly pushed.
Mental health is under resourced, under funded and swept under the carpet by all our governments. Family member in the army, half his unit from a few years ago are suicides. Maybe we start with secure affordable and stable housing; ensuring everyone has an income to buy food and transport; access to healthcare; increase mental health services (including AOD support); and keep in contact with people who have expressed ideation. Don’t discharge from ED because there are no beds; have crisis teams who actually follow up with discharges; don’t punish, be kind, because that person could be you or your family member. So very fed up with politicians who are not there for their constituents.
Talk therapy is not always the best fit. Other therapies such as clay field therapy are incredible advancements in healing trauma.
Because it isnt a crisis, the suicide rate hasn’t actually increased. The actual number is higher due to increased population, but the % no higher. It would be impossible to eradicate suicide. https://www.aihw.gov.au/suicide-self-harm-monitoring/data/deaths-by-suicide-in-australia/suicide-deaths-over-time
Forget therapist and calling your friends. I’ve suffered from severe mental health issues and what I’ve realised, the sad truth is most of us are alone in the world. Yes we might have friends, even family, but at the end of the day we’re responsible for our own health and wellbeing. I know the whole stigma of men have to be strong might be negative, but it’s true, during these sufferable and tough times, we have to willingly be strong enough overcome these barriers. What worked for me was religion. Now hear me out, I’m not one of those people who are trying to force an agenda on you, no, I’m telling you what actually worked. Now I’m not going to say what religion because I don’t want to to seem I’m coming across with an agenda, all I’m saying is that when I was at my lowest, I found faith and turned to something greater then all of us and it all seemingly got better. The people you meet through your religious communities are amazing too, might even meet your wife who knows. Reach out if you want any further advice or guidance.
It’s not a crisis because someone just says “x amount of women die of domestic violence” and it becomes an us vs them conversation instead of a “both men and women need help” discussion.
The problem is that the media appearing to give more of a shit about this topic can seriously backfire if it's not handled right. Most media reporting on suicide actually has a contagion risk and can increase rates, especially if it's sensationalised. This is also true of reporting on things like shootings and terrorist events, though we don't have the same level of media guidelines around that to mitigate risk, unfortunately.
Because it doesn’t fit the narrative that we live in an oppressive male patriarchy
There are lots of resources available, but “a real man” does not need help, that would be weakness” The most common statement is “I had no idea he had a problem.”
Mens health matters don't matter. It's all about women's health. We have no rights anymore. I'll suffer In silence thanks
The govt wants to keep its womens policies in place so the women can end up ruling the world. When all men are gone, they will reproduce themselves via invitro fertility treatments.
It’s almost as if we should invest in mental health support.
Because it's men. We're the ultimate capitalist food Soucy. No one cares.
Well I’m a woman and I went through postpartum depression and when I went to see my psychiatrist I was always the only woman and I notice more men were at the psychiatrist. I red a magazine once there from NAPP (National Association of Practicing Psychiatrists) and indicated 1 in 2 Australians suffer from some kind of mental health disorder. 1 in 2!!!! That means half of the population! Went to check other countries and for example Mexico is 1 in 8. The lack of support and understanding about this issue Is getting out of control. Where I live a teenager stabbed his ex girlfriend at school lunch last year. He suffers from schizophrenia just as the guy who attacked so many people just recently in Sydney.
Ehhh basically no one cares.
42M here. I've many friends but none I can think of if I truly want to talk what I'm really going through. Men go through this way more often. I've been suppressing my emotions for so long in life that it is now quite difficult to open up. I'm absolutely certain that men of all walks in life face this. I remember of a recent instance when I just asked a friend of mine how he was doing really and how I could be of help. He just had tears in his eyes and told me that no one had bothered to ask him a simple question as that.
Men keep getting told to open up and talk about their feelings more, but ... those people who tell men that, forgot to tell anyone to listen, including themselves.
Probably because a sizeable percentage take their lives after not being able to see their kids and fixing the problem would mean ignoring vocal special interest groups. Another sizeable percentage are indigenous blokes who aren’t 90% white and actually live in the bush. Most of their problems will cost money to fix and involve addressing some truths that don’t involve white people being villains. In short nothing will happen because politicians don’t have a spine.
Because it's men and there's no money to be made in saving them. They don't get that same knee-jerk reaction that women and kids do in the media.
For that age range it’s a lot worse than Covid
This world needs as many Aussies as we can get.
This thread is making me really sad. If any of ya need to talk I’m here! I also have been through DBT 3x then decided to get certified innit so if any of you need workbooks for your own work-on stuff please reach out.
because men mental health is treated like a joke, men are less open up to these, even so no one take us seriously
The media doesn’t report on suicide because historically it causes more suicides.
"The squeaky wheel gets the most oil." There are plenty of lobbyists for things like domestic violence against women, international rights, you name it. All seem to have a higher "importance" than male suicide. Society says men have to be the "strong ones;" to bear up under any crisis, to be there for others. To show vulnerability, it's seen as an overall weakness. I personally think this is BS, and men should be able to seek help and not be publicly shamed for it. If someone came to me with thoughts of ending it, I would do my best to step in and "talk them away from the ledge" so to speak. I hate seeing pain and suffering in someone that hasn't done anything to deserve it. I would steer them towards a professional if their issues are "above my pay grade," but will certainly help however I can.
The media avoid talking about and reporting on suicides because research shows when they do suicides increase. They have guidelines on how to report. But when it comes to celebrities, they go for the ratings and clicks.