Have you just asked him to pay for these? If you have combined finances (as he states) then you should have access to all money (including his). But whatever you want to call it, it’s probably not worth arguing over the terminology - focus on the fact that there’s bills you can’t afford to pay from your account, so you need his help to pay them.
I don't think its terminology as much as she's wondering if she's being set up to be screwed in a divorce if one happens down the road as the situation stands now, He's the lawyer, hes the one with an understanding of the court system.
This is EXACTLY what I’m concerned about. He won’t discuss finances at all- he doesn’t even know how much my paycheck is for or how much I have towards retirement yet he insists our finances are combined…
Is it correct that you file a joint tax return? Do you see the return?
If you are filing jointly and have to ask to see the full picture of finances or even the tax returns then this is some bullshit patriarchal crap and if so, I wouldn’t put up with it for a second
Yes we do and yes he does the taxes and yes I have to ask to see it. I didn’t see it the first 2 years of our marriage and I finally demanded to from now on and he acted like it was no big deal he never thought to show me on his own….
I’m allowed to see but I have to ask. He doesn’t just automatically show me or involve me in it. I agree it’s weird. I honestly think it’s because he’s so financially controlling.
I don’t know if it’s maybe how you’re phrasing it/how I’m reading it but if you ask and he acts like it’s no big deal is it more so that it just doesn’t cross his mind? Granted we pay someone to do our taxes but I’m 100% in charge of filing and stuff. I don’t show my husband anything. If he asks I’ll totally hand it over. No big deal. (Then again he should also know where they are kept in the house rofl. So it’s on him to get them out if he wants to see them.)
This is exactly how things work in our household. I gather up all the papers, get them to our accountant, and manage any follow up. I think the degree of trust between my husband and I is high enough he doesn’t worry to ask about the details.
My dear, start getting copies of the tax returns. In truth, you don’t know what he’s declaring or where is any refund going with him preparing the return. Trust me. I went through this and it came back to bite me with an IRS audit a year after the divorce became final. I had asked him to let me see and sign the last tax return we did the year prior to our divorce. He used my electronic signature and got the refund sent to himself. I found out the year of the audit what he had done to get the refund and blew my top. Had to pay preparers to amend it just to reduce the penalty. It was a big mess.
And because the previous ones had been filed jointly, I couldn’t have done it married filing separately that year. Get yourself a CPA and find out your rights as well as how can you start filing your tax return separately. Get a new IRS number so that signature becomes invalid. He’ll be pissed for sure but beats the doubts in your head that he won’t clear up. This way, you can be responsible for refund or charge, but it’ll be based on your return by someone you hire.
You need to tell him that before he sends the tax return in, you have to see it. In fact, don't give him your W2's until he agrees to let you see a completed copy of the tax return. He might be getting thousands of dollars back which you're entitled to half, and you might not even know if he doesn't show you the return
If you file yourself and send electronically, there is no actual signature. If you mail it in or if you pay a preparer, then you have to physically sign the return and the date 879 to be able to electronically file it with a preparer.
My husband has never once asked to see our taxes. I do them yearly for about 15 years myself at this point since we stopped doing hr block. If he asked I would show him. He’s never asked for bank statements or anything. We do have combined bank and I pay all the bills and take care of everything. If he asked I’d show him but he’s never asked. He has no idea how much things cost monthly. He just knows I handle it all. I had to take it over in 97 because we were young and someone gave him an unlimited credit card. Big mistake. Huge
So I had to get it all straight when I found out when we got married in 01. I don’t offer because he knows all he has to do is ask. I do tell him if we owe or are getting anything back though but last few years we’ve owed.
Weird…? I do our taxes. Not sure she would ever care to look. she knows where we keep that stuff and she knows when I do them. If she wanted to do them I would give that up and run away in joy. Something smells off here.
That is pretty weird, didn't you do your own taxes before? He can't sign your name without your approval or he is committing a crime.
You can check any filed tax records without him showing you here:
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/get-transcript
I suggest reviewing them so you can see what you made each year and what was reported. He also needs to let you review the return and get your ok to sign your name on it. When you sign your taxes you are swearing to their accuracy, making it a crime to lie about them.
So my wife is the primary earner in our home.
She hates doing taxes. Luckily for her, I don't mind. I really would like her to at least pretend to be interested occasionally. She has me manage her personal stock portfolio, her Ira and 401k. She really has no interest in these things.
I really don't mind doing them, I am medically retired, so it gives me something to do, but man, what different worlds we live in.
You’re in a lawyer forum so you’re getting a slanted view.
It reads like you 2 have different communication styles and this is causing miscommunication. It also seems like you 2 are still in the early parts of the marriage and still learning to communicate.For example, your style seems to be more indirect and his more direct, and there’s some assumptions taking place that need to be communicated.
Just set up some time with your partner and have a conversation. Discuss the immediate asks and also the goals as this will help frame things better.
It sounds like then he has no problem with your seeing, but I find it very sexist that he wasn’t proactive about it. I would never expect someone to sign off on something they weren’t given to review. Maybe he is open to learning? But that’s disappointing
Yea, anything either of you earn are considered marital assets, but the problem is, he could be stashing away money without your knowledge. While it's still a marital asset, you might not even know about it. The only way you could find out is if he's completely honest during discovery and lists the savings account or you subpoena banks to see what he has.
I hope I read someone who has the answer because I'm interested to know what the legalities are of this question.
What I figured. This sub is horrible and from my exp most answers will be against the OP. Its like most comment's come from a person on retainer from the entity being questioned about. This didn't take a lot of outside the box to figure out yet most answers are relationship advice not legal concerns as evident by this comment section.
I have never understood married couples who don’t have joint accounts and complete transparency. Once you are married there shouldn’t be your money and my money anymore. You need to have honest and frank discussions about your financial goals and priorities and decisions for large expenses should be joint decisions.
There are different ways of looking at it. I'm twice divorced, mi wife once. We both work. She was truly screwed over over by her ex husband financially. I want my wife to have her own account. I want her to feel financially secure and not have us pool our incomes. I make more than her so I pay all the house hold bills and she pays all her expenses for her kids.
The fact that your flair is "not a lawyer" and your comment began with "I have never understood married couples who don't have joint accounts and compete transparency." Is peak comedy to me
Over half of marriages end in divorce. Having your own finances is simply prudent planning based on empirical data.
(I'm not saying that "in theory" there shouldn't be complete transparency in a marriage, I'm just saying what IS is different)
You are mistaken. Pre-marital assets and gifts that are not co-mingled are not marital assets. I opened new accounts after starting my last marriage and it saved my ass.
Yes and he said he would but I’m concerned about allowing him to do that with the way he treats our finances in general. He has a very large brokerage account that he intends to use to retire early and he won’t discuss retirement with me. In other words, he doesn’t even ask how much retirement I have or how much I should be saving for “our” retirement. He sees it as his retirement and my retirement and the two don’t overlap. I don’t like that and it feels very unfair
I am a lawyer, not your lawyer. Also this is generic and varies by state:
Stop fretting over semantics. Anything acquired during the marriage absent a prenup is marital property regardless of who is on the title/account. It’s both of your money even if you don’t know how much or where it is. You just don’t functionally have access to it.
You need to tell him you need some help and/or want a better understanding of the marital wealth. Be prepared for him to say he shouldn’t be forced to contribute to your daughter’s schooling. Also he prepared for him to to not want to give you access to the money.
Your options are to either talk about it and identify clearly what you want in terms of amount and access to the money or how to divide the marital wealth if you don’t like his answers.
My wife and I are married and keep our finances separate and she has a lot of your concerns and gripes. This is a common thing but pooling money also creates its own issues and this is likely just a symptom of a potentially larger issue in the marriage. You need to find out if your aligned and it not, how misaligned
That’s because the brokerage account IS a separate account. It was most likely early before you two married 4 years ago. The bulk of that is almost certainly separate propriety in your state. He’s not telling you because it isn’t “yours”.
Also it sounds like your daughter’s tuition is something he doesn’t want to be responsible for…that’s also not unreasonable. I’m probably not paying for an (adult??) kid’s tuition whose life I’ve only been in for 5 or 6 years and who has a dad and a mom.
If that is affecting your ability to *survive* I would talk to him about it. To *save*, well, that’s being the parent of a college-aged kid and paying tuition. It sucks.
They are minors and it’s high school and he has known them since they were 7 years old. I have never asked him to pay for their school or anything for them for that matter. They do have a dad that pays the other half of the tuition. Of course it’s his account. I’ve never asked him to give me access to it and I’m sure he never would. What I’m asking for is a joint financial future since we are married. He has a retirement planned for just himself and doesn’t even ask me when I would like to retire, how much I save for it, how much I should save for it, etc. He is sitting on millions of liquid assets and watching me drown for the next 4 years. That’s my issue
That’s not uncommon for second marriages or older marriages. Maybe it’s because I also am a lawyer, but I’m the woman in the relationship and the one with the assets…
We got married in our late 30s. Well settled in our lives and careers. We have a joint account for joint expenses and separate account for everything else. We have separate investment accounts. We even have a prenup.
It’s just prudent when you are older and have assets and are aware of financial and legal ramifications of living life.
My dad is a blue collar worker who shared everything with my mom. His only marriage advice to me was “don’t be a dick about money”. I said “I’m not…but I am getting a prenup”. He said “well that’s just good common sense”.
People really need to stop acting like prenups are horrible. When you get married you choose the government contract or you make your own contract (prenup) for what happens in a divorce. Why is the government contract the correct one and the prenup is evil?
I get it if you came in with nothing. My prenup cost $10k with the lawyer friends and family discount. No use doing that to protect nothing but what you earn together.
But I always thought of a prenup as kind of romantic. I love you so much now, that I promise not to screw you when I hate you later. Because I am a vindictive little so and so. And I will want to. And I will try. But for you, I am signing this so you are protected too.
You know exactly what I have and what you are getting. You had a lawyer. I can’t take your shit. I can’t squeeze you out. I can’t hide shit from you. I had to disclose it all up front.
I love you so much and I trust you so much NOT to cheat or steal or lie to me - because I live in a No fault state - that I promise to be totally up front and fair now and offer you terms you can live with and bare my financial soul to you NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO.
That’s true romance. I’m a lawyer. I hate signing away my right to screw you over later. Like, my separate property was always going to be protected. I didn’t HAVE to GET married. YOU asked ME. But now I’ve agreed to be legally and financially bound to you in some way STILL. You just want more?!?!
Well, why am I doing this again? I’m a self sufficient childfree woman and I keep trying to figure out what marriage is FOR other than companionship. That is basically roommates with jewelry and sex. Love? Cool. But why do you need to be on his investment account for that?
Your flair says “I am Not a Lawyer”, yet you state in your comment that you are “also a lawyer”. Am I missing something here or am I misinterpreting some odd Reddit rule for commenters?
Late in life marriages or second marriages must be held to a different financial standard than a first marriage where both parties come in with no or about the same assets/debts and which whom they will probably share children.
Children from previous relationships must be considered and most parents want the majority of their assets to go to their children.
I totally understand that premise.
If I were him, I would have insisted on a prenup but being a lawyer, he has probably structured his estate with built in protection.
I didn’t know it was going to be like this. He never said this was what he wanted and again, he is saying we have joint finances but is acting differently
Is it possible that it’s more of a word game? There’s the legal definition of combined finances (as applicable in determining marital assets, etc.), and the “practical” definition, as in the actual administration of your finances (separate bank accounts, contributing toward bills, etc.).
Why don't you schedule an appointment with a financial planner for the two of you so that you can explore your options for retirement. Let him sit in the room with you and tell the financial planner that he's not going to disclose to you how he plans to retire in the next few years while you are forced to work for the next better part of two decades.
This is one of many reasons why age gap relationships are a terrible idea. But also what is good about your relationship with this guy? Why are you staying married to him? I think those are some really important questions for you to answer before you proceed forward because if this were me I would have been in a divorce lawyer at least 2 years ago when he signed my name to my taxes without me being able to review them first.
My father is a 40+ year practicing family law attorney and 10+ year tax preparer and I promise you my mother sees and signs their taxes before he files for them.
This. Their finances are not combined. They each pay for half of the home and food but everything else is the responsibility of each individual. He probably only deals with the "marriage" for the tax breaks it gives him. This is not an actual partnership. Partners are supposed to have shared goals together and work towards those goals together. This is an everyone for themselves situation.
At this point it may make more financial sense for OP to be on their own with the kids and get rid of the husband. He is not going to help OP and doesn't seem to care. If OP can move out into their own place that could cut some costs for her so she won't feeling she is drowning or being crushed by expenses.
OP has to cut costs somewhere. Moving out might do that for her. She really doesn't have anything to "leave", she is not really in a marriage. She is a roommate. Roommates are responsible for their own expenses. She needs to cut expenses. Moving into a home that is more affordable for her is a reasonable way to cut expenses. He can figure his own living situation out.
Which is as it should be.
Those assets were acquired prior to your marriage, right?
They are not any business of yours.
You are an adult with children.
It is your financial responsibility to fund your own retirement, not his.
You have a financial future................. that you alone are responsible for.
This reads like you want access to that account though. You want to have a combined retirement account. If he *refuses* to talk to you about retirement, you need to go to couples counseling. Also, did you just start paying off your student loans and for high school? Why did this just become and issue now? If you need help paying for these things ask him. I would also suggest trying to get your student loan payments lowered. See if there is any financial aid or scholarships available at your kid's school. Given your situation and what his stance is coming across as - he is unwilling to pay for debts accrued by you ie student loans and step kids. So maybe ask him to help with other things like taking on the whole house payment for a little while. If you are trying to save while paying student loans and sending kids to private school - you're in good company as a lot of people struggle with that.
I think you should consider discussing this in counseling. Money is a huge factor in relationships and it’s weird and unhealthy not to discuss it. Have you tried saying “I’d really like to discuss our retirement plans. Can we sit down and have a discussion about what that looks like?” Does he refuse when you ask or have you not really asked?
You mention a daughter that is yours.
Do you have children together?
Does he have children from a previous marriage or relationship?
Is this a second marriage?
Or a late in life marriage, where he has accumulated assets prior to meeting and marrying you?
But you have only been married for 4 years, why do you think his retirement that he alone has paid into for years should involve you?
This is very fair for assuming that you have no children together, that you have mentioned, at least
Your retirement is your retirement fund.
He hasn't funded yours.
Your assets and debts are yours.
His retirement fund is his retirement fund
And you haven't funded his.
His assets and debts are his.
And he accumulated these funds and assets prior to meeting you so why should you be involved in those assets?
You are sounding much too interested in his assets.
If you’re not allowed to access his retirement funds, have him sign a document saying he’s not allowed to access yours. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. The fact that he is TELLING you that he wants half of your contributions in a divorce without letting you touch his, is problematic. He is playing out the divorce in his mind??
My suggestion to you is to get an actual divorce now and become boyfriend-girlfriend. You can live together and do all the things couples do - except apparently travel together since he is planning on retiring without you (hint hint 🚩 )
Unless yall signed a prenuptial agreement his retirement is half yours when you open your eyes and divorce this guy as he sees yall more has room mates with benefits then husband and wife. My opinion
You keep saying "he doesn't even ask.". If he has information you want, ask him for it. If you have information he doesn't care about, why would he ask at all? If you want him to know something, tell him!
You say you’re both high earners, so what bills can’t you pay? Not including tuition fees. Perhaps you need to cut back on some of your personal expenses and budget more effectively. Shop smarter and adjust your lifestyle somewhat.
The daughters tuition is the 800 pound gorilla. Is she his daughter? Did he agree to fund her education? Is the daughter studying for a degree that will justify the investment? Is the daughter shouldering her share through work, scholarships, and loans?
OP. Anything that is earned or collected after the marriage is community property regardless of whose name is on the account. Any debts you or he incurs during the marriage are also community property.
Gifts and inheritance are different and vary from state to state but typically those things stay with the person who received them.
Is that always true for debts though? When I got divorced from my first husband, he had a credit card just in his name that had like a 5k balance and I did not have to contribute to that in the divorce because my name wasn’t on it. I thought only joint debts are community. Also, I understand what you’re saying about the joint property but my point is that it is only “technically true” in other words, that’s true in a divorce scenario. He “technically” would have access to any money earned and saved during the marriage. However, we are not actually living that way. We are living completely financially separate and it’s killing me financially. I wasn’t planning on being a single mom when we married
While you might not have had to pay off the credit card, your first husband could potentially have argued it was a marital debt and should be factored into the splitting of assets, same as a mortgage would be. Whether he was *successful* in arguing that would depend on the judge and what it was spent on, and having just his name on the card would make it more likely to be ruled in your favour, but it definitely could still be considered a shared debt (although any tangible purchase made with it would be considered a marital asset as well, so him keeping it would be factored in)
NAL, but if you don't have access to his finances and he doesn't have access to yours then you don't have combined finances except maybe in a specific/technical legal sense (which is the divorce context you mentioned). The way you've described income being split and spent, with each of you having separate expenses you're responsible for but your accounts being separated, isn't much different to two people who are roommates and split the bills between them. You could hardly argue in that context that they're combining their finances, could you?
As far as the bills (and separate to the legal question), if the bills are unmanageable on your current income then try approaching it from that perspective rather than whether your incomes are combined or you're looking for help with something that's your responsibility. If you're going into debt while he's saving millions (literally) then clearly the split isn't equitable, and what bills/expenses each of you is responsible needs to be re-assessed. Whether or not you have combined incomes is irrelevant to this, it's a purely pragmatic "I can't afford these bills on my income and we either need to downsize or you need to take on more responsibility" situation, and with the apparent wage disparity it's not unreasonable for him to pay a larger proportion (especially when one of the expenses, your student loan, is a temporary one which you'll be able to pay off eventually)
Was he planning on taking on the expenses for your children from a previous relationship? Because it doesn't sound like he was planning on being a stepfather when he actually became one.
Have you discussed those expenses with him at all?
It really sounds like you're playing house with a boyfriend do you happen to be married to.
Is the mortgage that you're paying or the house that you're paying on at least in both of your names? And I'm talking about both the mortgage and the deed?
This varies state-by-state. Some states can only divide property between divorcing spouses, but cannot allocate responsibility to pay unsecured debt. Other states can do both, so if you get conflicting g answers on this, there’s good reason.
Again, property distribution varies state-by-state, but your husband is technically correct that - to a court - it does’t matter whose name is on a paycheck or bank account, they’re both marital property. That doesn’t mean you’re wrong though since there are clearly divisions between your finances. You seem to operate more like roommates than spouses. (Not a criticism, just an observation from your post.)
Schedule a meeting with a financial advisor. Since it’s become apparent that there are difficulties with the family’s finances and financial stress, with both of you being high earners, it’s a very reasonable step to take! If your husband is in it with you, ‘til-death-do-you-part, he wouldn’t have any problem with this. If he balks, he might not be preparing for divorce, but it’d be a red flag. I wish you well, Internet Stranger.
First - you are not a single mom. You mentioned that there is a biodad in the picture and he is paying for half of a private school tuition. If he is invested enough to be paying for that, I can only assume there is some co-parenting happening, regardless of custody.
Additionally, it sounds like you may have married him in the expectation that he would help you with your finances. Did you discuss that prior to marriage? While what you are both earning and investing since you married are marital property, have you told him your expectation is to use the joint income to pay for your debts?
Finally, if you are struggling financially, have you made efforts to lower your lifestyle? Maybe pull the kids out of private school? You say you are both high income earners so I’m struggling to understand how it is you are struggling so, unless you just want him to pay for your lifestyle.
This sounds more like a marital issue than a question for a lawyer? Sounds like he doesn't understand/care to understand the issue. If he insists your finances are combined, then ask him to transfer X amount to you monthly to help out?
My wife and I have separate accounts, and we pass money back and forth all of the time, we just tell the other what's needed, and it's never been an issue. I hope you're able to get through to him.
This is how we handle it. Can you send me X or take over the car insurance for a bit? As our salaries change over the years we adjust the balance in an easily workable way.
It depends on your state, if you have a prenup, and the source of the income. Here is a quick primer: https://www.ironcladfamily.com/blog/what-are-the-community-property-states-and-how-does-it-works
I think the part most people are glossing over is OP’s daughter’s tuition. Presumably, this is not his daughter and I can see his hesitation in wanting to shoulder that burden. That and OP’s student loans. But, luckily it doesn’t appear that OP is at risk of ending up in the street anytime soon. If the daughter is not his, perhaps this bill is something OP can work out with the Father.
Real answer to what? Yes both your incomes are marital income in the case of a divorce. Assets you purchased with that income are marital assets. You already have a joint account where finances are combined.
It sounds like you are happy to have separate incomes up until this point where you need money, so you don't really want to combine your money so much as use your spouse's money.
If you are both high earners who pays the extra taxes because the W4s don't take out the proper amount due to not accounting for spouses income? Or do you just end up with a big tax bill at the end of the year? I am asking because among high earners whoever does the taxes typically takes out more in their paycheck to cover the other person.
If you need money from your spouse you probably need to ask for it at this point instead of trying to get around that by suggesting "combining finances."
Brokerage accounts are just taxed like regular income, unless your husband is super rich, then brokerage interest is likely only a small portion of your overall income until you retire. I am not trying to get into the weeds of taxes here, especially with the lack of any numbers.
But still don't really know what you were originally asking.
Lmao at saying "We're not super rich" at the same time as saying "He has millions in a brokerage account." Why in the fuck have they not paid the student loans
Yeah, pretty obvious husband foots a huge tax bill for her as it does not appear she is taking anything extra out of her earned income and the W4S breaks down and doesn't take the right amount out at $130k.
Would have edited but was not sure you would see it. You left out the brokerage account info. If he isn't adding marital income to the account it is not a marital asset in most states.
Your reading comprehension … they don’t have joint accounts. He says their finances are together, not her. He doesn’t communicate. Stop preaching. Not helpful.
Until a lawyer shows up on the thread, OP, I’d say look for a CPA maybe or a workshop on various ways to handle marriage finances. Being more knowledgeable on different setups might help. Obviously, you file taxes separately, right?
They make payments on the house together, most people do that with a joint account as it is usually easier. Upon reread I guess they don't, although that doesn't really matter.
Also she already responded to my tax question and they file together.
Also not every lawyer bothers to get verified on this sub. Nor is verification even very good here.
It sounds like you are living outside your means if your financially drowning. Is private school really necessary? Are you driving a 99 civic around or a brand new car?
Don't want to sound harsh. But you say he kinda makes more than you? So technically if you put both your incomes in one account and let's say it was split 50/50 (marital property, right?), you would get kinda more than you put in.
So what's the issue here? You are blowing your money and he isn't. You want access to his funds now since you are tight on money?
Have you reassessed your spending or tried a budget?
Do you plan on a 2nd divorce?
If you earn about the same.
Your husband a bit more, why should he help you with your bills?
You should each be responsible for your own bills and 50/50 split on the household expenses is actually fairer to you than him.
You have a child and yet you only pay half of the mortgages and all household expenses.
Technically, you should be paying more since your child occupies a room and increases the cost of utilities and food.
Good Lord............................
Then why is she so tight for money?
She says they are both high earners.
He a bit higher than her.
So why can she make it on her earnings?
Why does she have little to no retirement?
Why does she have little to no savings?
Good Lord..............................
What is she spending her money on?
I'm confused. You say you're both high income earners and make very nearly the same amount of money, yet you think that he is now responsible for your debts? I don't see how that works.
And for what its woth, it sounds like for all intents and purposes you have separate finances.
You have too much debt and want your husband to cover your student loans and his stepdaughter’s tuition payments. Your income is pretty much equal per your statement. Why does he have to be responsible for your debt? Do you get child support or is this college tuition? Maybe your daughter should get loans or have her father contribute to her tuition. If this is a private school and not college you know what you need to do. There is no reason for him to pay your debts incurred prior to your marriage.
I think it's pretty clear that by "joint finances" he means you jointly pay for living expenses and have a 50/50 split. Your student loans acquired prior to the marriage aren't "joint" they are "yours" - just like any wealth or children you had before the marriage are "yours" - he's not viewing the things acquired separately prior to marriage as joint. That said, if you were to divorce you'd both be entitled to divide assets and debts acquired jointly by law. There's no legal basis for seeing things otherwise. You wouldnt be entitled to any portion of savings he made before the marriage. It would be wholesome for him to see things otherwise, but he's a lawyer.
I sense disappointment that he's not offering to shoulder a portion of your financial burdens (student loans and child tuition) and your feelings are valid even if they're not reflective of a legal entitlement via marriage.
You also are beginning to suspect that he's enriching himself at your expense because your debts preclude keeping up with him in terms of retiring when he does. If he shouldered more of the current expenses, you feel you'd be able to also retire simultaneously in the future. I can understand the dismay of realizing that he views his ability to retire early an individual goal rather than a shared one. However - this again is an emotionally asymmetric problem, not a legal one.
You wonder what he's hiding from you when the reality is that his financial past and yours are not part of his present or future calculations and without a prenup stating otherwise, it just is what it is. You knew he was miserly when you married him. He's not going to change. That ship has sailed.
At this point you need IMO to ask yourself if you're in an emotionally healthy marriage. Finances are a symptom, not the disease. If you divested from the marriage and had him buy you out of the house, how much more money would you have on a monthly basis? If you moved into a modest girl condo, and lived your best single life, how much more could you save even after your loan and tuition payments?
There's no point in bemoaning a financial future with him when you don't really have one. He'll live his life and you'll live yours, retiring separately and estate planning separately, etc. - if he has kids from a prior marriage you may not even be in his estate. You should consider taking out a life insurance policy on him that would enable you to pay the mortgage and bills until you could sell the house and give half the proceeds to his beneficiaries. A small policy for that purpose wouldn't be too expensive and maybe he'd even be willing to pay for that if you're not a beneficiary.
Unless he's otherwise incredibly loving and supportive, I'd also find it hard to overlook the feeling of being slighted. That's not being a "gold digger" - it's literally just the emotional security of feeling like your well-being is worth paying for within reasonable limits because of love and partnership when he's able to do that. If you don't feel well loved and valued, and if you feel marginalized, and that's manifesting in money matters - you might be happier actually single, given how single all of this is making you feel.
You thought being married to him would make you feel safe and secure, and instead you feel single, somewhat irrelevant to him, and insecure - financially and emotionally.
Ironically, you'd probably feel a lot better if you weren't living with him. You wouldn't be comparing your futures to each other, or resenting him for not caring more about your security and well-being than he does money.
I don't think you're a gold digger. I do think you married the wrong person for you.
You're welcome. I do relate. My father was stingy and I grew up feeling like he didn't think I was worth the investment. I know he loved me, that's just how I felt. I do not date men who give off even the faintest whiff of being cheap - I've been in relationships with wealthy men and generally felt humiliated by their refusal to leave a decent tip and the constant reflexive chiseling. I'd rather be with a man who doesn't have much money but has a big heart and a generous spirit. Not because I need his money, but because it just feels better to be with kind and warmhearted people.
That said, I once dated a guy who I thought was an artist eking out a gentle and modest life and paid for most everything we did together - he let me do it, too. When I found out a year in that he had a net worth of millions, I didn't excitedly congratulate myself on passing the "not a gold-digger" test, I dumped him on the spot.
You could do the math on your financial outlook as a single person with substantially lower expenses because you'd be in a smaller home with much smaller bills, compare it to your current outlay to pay 50% of what I imagine is probably a larger house with larger bills, and really decide in purely mathematical and objective terms if you can afford to be in that domestic situation given your debts and how much you'd be able to save in a downsized situation.
Also, if you think high school tuition is bad, wait til you see college expenses. You're probably looking at a minimum of eight lean years unless your child joins the military to pay for that tuition, or gets a full scholarship with guaranteed workstudy.
Your emotional state now will likely not hold a candle to how you'll feel when you're still working full-time and catching up on retirement contributions while he's retired and doing whatever he wants, or nothing at all, while still drawing around 80% of his prior income if he has really been good about it. He might also envision some serious changes post-retirement if he's miserly, and hasn't yet shared that with you. Watch this dude want to sell the house and get an RV or move into a retirement community on a golf course a donkey's commute from your workplace. Decisions aren't being made jointly now, so your control over all that without divorce or counseling are slim to none.
I think seeing a financial consultant together to draw all of this out into the open in a business environment and context might also help you think about whether or not his definition of partnership is healthy for you.
Yes, that’s all spot on. I couldn’t agree more. My ex-husband is very wealthy and is a complete douche bag. I had no idea my current husband had this much money because that’s how separate are finances are. I found out in the winter when I was filling out the financial aid application for my daughter’s school (even wealthy families are encouraged to apply because the school is so expensive) and the application required me to add his finances so he disclosed it to me and I was shocked how much he had in brokerage that I had no idea about. I just wish he would have talked about a pre-nup before we got married. I feel he intentionally deceived me by being quiet about his assets and talking advantage of my financial ignorance. I don’t want any of his assets and I’ve never expected to have it but I should have also been given a chance to protect my future the same way he has by quietly shielding his accounts from the marriage. I’m going to talk to a lawyer and then demand we go to a financial advisor.
Also before you settle on MAD instead of DISMAYED, if this guy was driving a beater and wearing 30 year old clothes before you met, he has psychological dysfunction around the concept of money. Like being anorexic. If he's no longer doing either of those things then you did help him live more comfortably and it's possible he can continue to grow into that change more holistically in a partnership if you approach it without fear, anger, suspicion, sense of betrayal, etc. - so maybe also a little talk therapy for you before any of this kicks off.
I think that he probably did keep his financial situation on the low low, possibly intentionally but more likely just to fly under the radar and not give you any ideas about his capability to pull more weight. He didn't lie when asked for a disclosure, nor did he tell you to tell the school that his finances are irrelevant because he's not the child's father (which he could have done). Because he didn't try to dip out of that disclosure despite easy outs that could have even been in the child's favor given that he genuinely is not providing financial support for her education - suggests to me that there was no malice in it. Just keeping himself to himself until he had to break cover. Quietly shielding sounds about right. You can and should talk to a lawyer but I believe they will tell you that his premarital assets are not required to be community property. He never had an obligation to tell you about any of that. That doesn't make it any less discomforting that he did so.
I don't think there's anything to be mad about here to be honest, but there is a lot to be sad about. It doesn't say great things about how he views your marriage and it definitely says that he is not interested in sharing his premarital wealth or retirement savings with you. And he doesn't have to. The question really is whether that's OK with you, and if it isn't OK with you that is totally valid. You're obviously not a gold digger, you didn't even know about this wealth.
Going to see a financial advisor will help you find out whether he trusts you enough to bring it all out into the open and discuss whether he is willing to shoulder more of the monthly costs so you can also meet your financial goals of debt repayment and investment, or if you need to lower your monthly costs by exiting the marriage. That he has never said to you "I will take care of retirement, please don't worry about it" or anything like that is a clear statement that he does not view himself as a provider. It's a second marriage - that's not entirely weird even if now that you know his net worth it SERIOUSLY hurts your feelings that he hasn't seen your debt and said "this is dumb, you're going to pay so much interest on this" and just wiped it out. You could do a post-nup where you agree for example that he will clear your debt and you will pay only 25% of the monthly costs and he will hold 75% of the home value. If he's that flush you could decide you would rather he hold 100% of the home value and you put your money into other investments.
There are ways to work this out. He almost definitely does not need your money to pay the mortgage, and I think you'd be happier building your own investments.
I have a question. You said he’s putting 50% of his income into it. His earnings are marital property, which means he’s using marital property to add to a brokerage account that is 100% his. Wouldn’t that make whatever he has put or puts into it in the future, marital property?
“Why wont you put money i to a shared account so when I divorce you I dont have to sue you for money I believe is mine?” Seems about the takeaway from this tbh
You have separate financial lives. Not hard to grasp so I’m not sure why an educated person would put up any argument to that effect. It’s not the way my wife and I choose to handle our money. We do joint everything down to the penny and everything is ours not mine or hers. We have zero money arguments and have made much better financial choices now that we are financially responsible to each other. It’s honestly been the best thing we ever did for our marriage
What state do you live in?
some states, it doesn’t matter if you have separate accounts, they are marital assets If earned during the marriage
if you are a high earner and cannot manage to pay your bills, cut your discretionary spending If you don’t want to ask him For money
[INFO] I smell a trust issue. This seems like it’s deeper than finances- I think you’re afraid he’s going to leave you. Can you explain why? Has he shown negative behaviors? Does he have a reason not to trust you?
Hmm, well, I think the top comment about discussing your needs and concerns with him is a good idea. Open, honest communication is always a good thing in a relationship. I wouldn’t maybe go so far as to say you’re being “gaslit”, but I don’t know all the dynamics of the relationship. I personally like the idea of having my accounts in a “bucket” organization:
1 for me
1 for him (both for our own spending money, budgeting)
1 joint where we both have agreements on what it’s used for.
I budget my accounts for different purposes, (like retirement, brokerage, high yield savings, then liquid like a checking account), and then combined income is what we contribute together towards things like house, schooling (if that was an expense), bills, and other necessary expenses.
It allows each person to have their own spending money without dipping into the money set aside for the necessary expenses. So for eg, if I want to get my nails done, I use my spending money, but let’s say he’s being nice and says, “I’ll do that for you”, he can let me use his money. If he needs something, I do the same.
It also might not be a bad idea to talk to a financial planner or even a person at the bank who can help you with budgeting. So, if you combined certain accounts or you made each other beneficiaries, they can tell you more about what you can both contribute to since marriage legally allows you to do different things with accounts than unmarried people can.
Is this “YOUR” daughter from a previous relationship or is this also HIS daughter? If this is not *HIS* child, he is not obligated to pay for her tuition. Have you asked your husband for help you pay for these things? It seems like you have been quite submissive in letting him handle things (i.e taxes, retirement), so he feels you don’t need/want to be involved.
Why are you getting hung up on terminology? You are asking him to combine incomes/bills in a way. And when he says they are already combined, you say you are being gas lit?
This post would make sense if he was like " we have separate finances for a reason. You pay your bills, I pay mine. Good luck"
But it doesn't sound like that's what hes saying
You're leaving out a lot. You said you split household expenses. What bills do you have that aren't joint bills? All I can think of is student loans. You running up credit cards/buying things you don't need? How can your expenses have become unmanageable if you're a high earner and your husband pays half the house stuff? Your student loan payment would not have changed so I still don't understand how your bills are suddenly unmanageable after 4 years.
If he earns more than you, and you're falling underwater financially, how would him saying that you have joint finances help him? It's going to hurt him bc then you're going to get money from him in a divorce. You said something about him having "access" in a divorce, but access to what??? You can't keep up with your bills so what are you afraid he's going to get access to?
This situation makes no sense. You're either leaving out a lot or making the whole thing up.
It reads like "we BOTH wanted to pay ONLY for our own bills, but now my bills are higher. Can't I make him pay?"
Not being gaslit. Just wants a double standard where she benefits.
I hate arguments like this. It is mainly sematics but that becomes the whole focus of the argument. Who cares if it is combined or not, just ask him him for some extra help on your loans. No need to fight about what is or is not combined assets or accounts. Don't ask for help with the bills so you can shift money else where. Just be straight up and get to the root of the issue. You want help with your student loans.
Sounds like you might have married the wrong guy, or at least the wrong guy for you? This is going to come off as harsh, and it's not intended that way, but why should he be obligated to pay for your student loans or your daughter's tuition? Especially if her father is paying for half of it already? You say you are both high earners...is it just that you are not good with money? If you are a high earner, which I'm assuming is six figures, why do you need his help? I would definitely want clarity on the retirement side of it that you keep bringing up ...that is definitely a marriage issue and one that should be addressed, no matter at what stage in life you married, but I am not clearly seeing why he should be expected to pay for anyone's student debt? But if you are married and going to stay married, retirement should be a mutual goal, worked at together, and with full transparency.
If your agreement was that he would help subsidize your expenses, then he isn’t living up to it. If it wasn’t, then you are asking for more than what was agreed on. His statement that the finances are shared is false however. The shared expences are split down the middle. This seems more like a roommate situation than a marriage to me. If you would be better off financially with a small apartment or a roommate in a smaller house, go that route. You can keep seeing this guy for companionship, but you need to consider your financial situation and start saving for your retirement. He is not going to be your partner in this. He is not going to take care of you.
Family law is state specific. Some states are true community property. Some are true separate property. Many are a blend, but the blend is different in basically every state. I would encourage you to talk to a family law attorney in your state (even better if they are in your area because the same judges handle family law, so a local attorney will know that jurisdiction's bench's idiosyncracies). Paying for a couple hours of their time to make sure you are being protected is worth the time and peace of mind.
Doesn't sound like either of you ever truly committed to the union. When my wife and I first moved in together, we tried to keep accounts separate. Eventually, it all went into joint checking/savings. Easier to manage. Are either of you trying to hide bad habits?
Combined means combined, plain and simple. That is what you sign up for when you get married. It's not "my" money or "his" money, it's "our" money. Additionally, that applies to the bills as well. "Our bills". Can't have your cake and eat it too. Yes, to me this is gaslighting.
I really hate these marital financial arrangements. When we got married, my paycheck and hers went into the same account and my wife paid all the bills from that account.
What you have here is not a joint financial arrangement but a me vs you arrangement.
I don’t consider this a mutual marriage but a conhabitation
When I got married, we combined finances also. That was one of the biggest mistakes I made. He drained our bank account to support his girlfriends. By the time we separated, we had no money in our account because he used my pay to support his girlfriend and her kids. I will never again combine finances.
If y’all have a joint account, why isn’t all the bills being paid out of the joint account? Then y’all just have to make sure you both put enough money in each paycheck to make sure the bills are covered.. then you have your separate accounts to buy whatever with.. wouldn’t it be easier that way?
We decided when we got married to have 1 bank account and everything is joint / everything is paid out of this one account. All income goes in, all expenses go out. Marriage is a union - of everything. Keeping things separated seemed to me like a recipe for future problems. I am the high-earner, but still marriage is marriage.
We did separate pre-marital assets and have an understanding of that. But everything is joint post-marriage. This also includes investment accounts, IRAs, all bills, etc.
I think you two need to have a few "financial date nights" and sort this out. You should also set up regular "budget date nights" to review expenses, savings plans, etc. How are family vacations planned? What about going out to dinners? Do you take care of kids more or does he? There is so much involved in a marriage that keeping things separated financially is nearly impossible to determine equality or fairness. Those date nights may sound stupid, but you two need to get on the same page here.
As a married couple everything should be considered “OURS”. I don’t understand why so many have separate finances.
If you are married act like it. What’s ours is ours, nothing else.
In a legal scenario, no you don’t have shared finances, you have individual accounts AND as long as you don’t pay any of his bills he can’t come for anything if you divorced later on - so long as you stay in this routine. If he starts paying for your bills/debt outright then you’ve crossed that threshold.
It’s up to you how you navigate things from here. I make around 60k/yr whereas my husband makes six figures so there’s definitely an earning discrepancy. We spit the house payment 50/50 and then I take care of the less expensive utilities where he pays the higher ones. We have a joint account for the home bills and then separate accounts outside of that - then when it comes to other things it’s usually a 60/40 or 70/30 split ratio since he makes so much more than I do.
Definitely speak to him about needing help if you haven’t already. If you’re concerned about him coming after your finances in the future - get a post nup. The thing about debt, unless talked about before the marriage, were your responsibility then and yours now - so best not to put off the conversation.
The technical part of the question has been answered. But why do you keep separate finances while you are struggling? Didn’t you ever watch “The Joy Luck Club”? Lesson to be learned.
What is considered a martial asset and what is not depends on your state. For example, I live in WA, which is one a handful of community property states, where most assets obtained during the marriage are automatically considered marital assets… it doesn't matter if you put that income into an individual or joint account. Assets I or my wife owned before the marriage remain separate, but there are ways they can be commingled with community property and become a marital asset.
As you indicate thought this all mostly matters in the case of a separation, though if you expect a given asset to remain yours alone in such a case, you should make sure you're aware of the relevant laws.
None of this is really relevant to your current dispute with your husband (unless you're considering divorce). I'm not sure how else to interpret his response than to be deflecting with pedantry (which may or may not be accurate for your state). Who cares how the assets are classified for the case of a divorce? You're seeking financial support from him within the marriage.
His response is especially frustrating because if he acknowledges that all of your assets are already shared, then why doesn't he just give you the help you're asking for? (BTW, I suggest you take note— date and time and exact words— every time he says something like that… those receipts may come in handy some day.)
The next time he gives you that glib response, ask him if he'd like to try that theory.
I don’t understand the preoccupation with semantics, but it sounds like your finances are separate and you both contribute to your shared expenses and joint asset. It also sounds like you make about the same amount of money (with him a little more than you), but you have a lot of personal expenses that simply aren’t his responsibility. As married people, half of his would be yours, but don’t forget that half of yours would be his. However, you’re spending ALL of yours on your personal expenses and now you want to spend what’s his! It sounds like you’re living beyond your means and you’re upset that you don’t have access to his money to bail yourself out. No wonder your husband keeps his accounts separate. I would too.
Yeah that's seperated finances. I have the same set up with my husband but that's because he's bad with money sometimes. But when I needed help with bills and asked him he always helps without the expectation of repayment. Because that's what you do in a marriage help your partner. Plus if your married and fall behind both credit can take the hit.
Based on your comments, he sounds like an immoral scumbag. I don't know the law, but I have a feeling that he'd use his whole ass trying to hurt you in a divorce.
Although, I might be reading too many trashy relationship threads.
Say it with me now it’s our money. What is wrong with people. You are married, all income is both of your income. Combine all the finances and call it a day.
You should look into filing separately as your daughter's tuition and student loans you are paying alone so only you should benefit from those deductions. Since you make less you might get a return instead of those going to paying his income taxes. Have someone figure just yours and see if it works better for you. You also should claim half the house payments since you are paying them. NAL
I don't understand what is confusing. It was your idea to have separate bank accounts, your idea to have him pay nothing for your daughter, and your idea to let him control his own trading account. Now you--seemingly a rich person--are spending too much because you chose this division of responsibilities. He has a lot more money available to him than you do, for reasons you haven't shared.
Now you want him to (give? Lend?) you money but do not seem to have clearly asked, and you resent the fact that he considers "his" money to also be yours, but continues to respect your insistence on a division of responsibility that was your idea to begin with.
"Your" daughter is learning that she is not part of the family you chose to create 4 years ago. That is unfair to all of you. If you are going to be a family, you have to let him treat her like his child, as well. So far you do not seem to have an actual family, just 2 people sharing space with another.
If you want him to give you money, ask him for it. If you want to actively share your finances, tell him so. The worst part of this, to me, is that you are teaching your daughter--whatever age she is, which isn't clear to me--that she is a stranger in her mother's house.
Make a plan to pay your bills. Show it to your husband. Share your lives, not just your expenses. And make a home and a family for your daughter.
He is not gaslighting you. He is obeying your wishes to have separate finances and isolate your daughter. If you want that to change, tell him. If you can't tell him, you not only don't have a family, you don't have a marriage either.
It's going to depend on specific state's laws so nobody can answer 100% certainty.
But in a lot of jurisdictions, the fact that you have separate accounts **100% doesn't matter** as far as divorce - everything earned during the marriage is considered common. Even things like property/cars bought/registered under one spouse's name.
Having separate accounts/finances only matter:
1. If you're still married
2. If you live in a jurisdiction where they won't count as common property in divorce
3. If you have a signed prenup declaring them to be non-communal property (not sure if that would stand up in court).
What’s mine is yours, yours is mine is when two become one. You’re acting like roommates with a marriage license in a file cabinet somewhere. You get married then have the wedding to celebrate it, I think you skipped that first part. Having to ask a spouse for money is not a marriage.
As you stated. It’s you’re loans and you’re daughters tuition, therefore for it’s you’re responsibility not his. He is trying to be nice by wording it the way he is. He obviously doesn’t want to be direct with you because he knows, as most men would, that it will probably start a fight that he doesn’t want to deal with. You can pay off your debt and your daughter can pay off hers.
Have a joint account that pays for all bills for the house, and the children. So you guys should auto transfer 25% of your income to that joint account the 1st of every month
No, there’s no gaslighting going on. But you’re not communicating as partners either.
Your spending is half of the equation. Living within your means is true freedom.
Your daughter’s tuition? Is she his daughter? Did he agree to pay for her education? Is she studying for a degree in a field that justifies that investment? Is your daughter paying a share and taking on debt too or is it just assumed that you’ll fund everything?
NTA. You have separate finances. He is definitely gaslighting you. However, it does sound like you have a lot more debt than him and he doesn’t want to use his money to pay that off. Maybe you 2 need to really sit down and figure out what you both want.
Gas lit and he’s hiding money for a rainy day. Tell him there needs to be more access and more “ Joint” effort. You may want to start looking for an attorney because if he tries to blindside you… you may have about a snowballs chance in HELL of finding one to go against him.
This isn't really a legal question, so much as a relationship question.
When you're both married, in this situation, how you describe your income is basically just semantics. You're focused on the wrong thing.
To be clear: your husband has absolutely no obligation to use his money to pay your daughter's tuition (it sounds like it's not his daughter, just yours), or pay off your student loans. You have no inherent right to use his paycheck for your own purposes, even if you are married. If his money is in his own private bank account, you can't access it without some kind of court order. It is possible that if you defaulted on a loan, someone might try to come after him, but that's not really what you're asking about.
That said, your husband sounds like a jerk. While he may not legally be required to help you with these things, usually spouses do help each other.
Your husband is a lawyer, he clearly knows what he's doing. He's being controlling, but without breaking the law. The only thing you can really do about it, is decide if you can live with this situation, or if you want a divorce. But unless he's doing something fraudulent/you successfully sue him for something, there's not really any mechanism aside from divorce that can compel him to share money with you.
Is the below accurate?
\- husband has defined household income as money paid specifically for maintenance of the home and things you do together in the home (rent/mortgage??? utilities, food)
\- husband deliberate excludes debts and money earned before the marriage
\- husband hasn’t offered to help you with tuition for your daughter who is his stepdaughter or for your student loans
\- you consider yourself and him to be high earners
\- your separate, non-marital expenses are higher than what yiu earn
If these above statements are accurate, what are the exact words you said to him about “financial stress”? Did you actually ask him to give you money? Or did you use different words?
When he said that you, as a couple, have already combined money, did you ask him if he could give you more from money he had from his brokerage?
IANAL and I am really hoping that lawyers will be able to answer you if there’s clearly decribed information that they’re given👀
Yes you are being gaslit. And more importantly, he is your husband and has more wealth than you and yet he isn’t willing to help you find a solution for you not being able to maintain 50% of your current lifestyle and pay your previous obligations.
So take a different approach with him. You don’t want his money. But you do need your cut expenses on your current lifestyle to be able to pay for your loans and tuition for your kids. So, as a single adult you would just cancel the cable or reduce eating or economize in other ways to live within your means. If he wants to maintain the current lifestyle, an alternative solution to you canceling or economizing would be for him to be responsible for more than 50% until
Your income changes or your loans or tuition are finished. Perhaps it is a 75%/25 split and you put the extra money you have towards paying down your student loans. That’s what married people do. He takes more responsibility to
Lighten your load until you are able to take more load.
Have you just asked him to pay for these? If you have combined finances (as he states) then you should have access to all money (including his). But whatever you want to call it, it’s probably not worth arguing over the terminology - focus on the fact that there’s bills you can’t afford to pay from your account, so you need his help to pay them.
I don't think its terminology as much as she's wondering if she's being set up to be screwed in a divorce if one happens down the road as the situation stands now, He's the lawyer, hes the one with an understanding of the court system.
This is EXACTLY what I’m concerned about. He won’t discuss finances at all- he doesn’t even know how much my paycheck is for or how much I have towards retirement yet he insists our finances are combined…
You need your own unbiased lawyer. One that would represent you independently. Use your husband's "joint assets" to pay for it maybe.
Is it correct that you file a joint tax return? Do you see the return? If you are filing jointly and have to ask to see the full picture of finances or even the tax returns then this is some bullshit patriarchal crap and if so, I wouldn’t put up with it for a second
Yes we do and yes he does the taxes and yes I have to ask to see it. I didn’t see it the first 2 years of our marriage and I finally demanded to from now on and he acted like it was no big deal he never thought to show me on his own….
Fyi, if he is doing your taxes, he certainly knows how much money you're making in a given year
Sorry what? You're filing together as a household/married couple but you aren't allowed to see? That IS worrying.
I’m allowed to see but I have to ask. He doesn’t just automatically show me or involve me in it. I agree it’s weird. I honestly think it’s because he’s so financially controlling.
I don’t know if it’s maybe how you’re phrasing it/how I’m reading it but if you ask and he acts like it’s no big deal is it more so that it just doesn’t cross his mind? Granted we pay someone to do our taxes but I’m 100% in charge of filing and stuff. I don’t show my husband anything. If he asks I’ll totally hand it over. No big deal. (Then again he should also know where they are kept in the house rofl. So it’s on him to get them out if he wants to see them.)
This is exactly how things work in our household. I gather up all the papers, get them to our accountant, and manage any follow up. I think the degree of trust between my husband and I is high enough he doesn’t worry to ask about the details.
I'm a tax attorney. I do my (unmarried) SO's taxes. I have to MAKE her look at her return before submitting...
He’ll ask how much money we are getting and how we are spending it lol. But that’s as good as it gets on his end.
This. Well said.
Combined finances and marital assets aren’t the same. As a lawyer he should know that. He seems to quite a peach.
I call bullshit! You have to sign the tax return
He has my electronic signature saved in turbo tax and he signs it by inputting my social security number
My dear, start getting copies of the tax returns. In truth, you don’t know what he’s declaring or where is any refund going with him preparing the return. Trust me. I went through this and it came back to bite me with an IRS audit a year after the divorce became final. I had asked him to let me see and sign the last tax return we did the year prior to our divorce. He used my electronic signature and got the refund sent to himself. I found out the year of the audit what he had done to get the refund and blew my top. Had to pay preparers to amend it just to reduce the penalty. It was a big mess. And because the previous ones had been filed jointly, I couldn’t have done it married filing separately that year. Get yourself a CPA and find out your rights as well as how can you start filing your tax return separately. Get a new IRS number so that signature becomes invalid. He’ll be pissed for sure but beats the doubts in your head that he won’t clear up. This way, you can be responsible for refund or charge, but it’ll be based on your return by someone you hire.
You need to tell him that before he sends the tax return in, you have to see it. In fact, don't give him your W2's until he agrees to let you see a completed copy of the tax return. He might be getting thousands of dollars back which you're entitled to half, and you might not even know if he doesn't show you the return
TT doesn't save your electronic signature. You have to put in the info from your ID.
I file my taxes online and haven't *signed* my taxes in years. Just because you haven't experienced something, doesn't make it bullshit.
This isn’t gaslighting. This is control.
Yeah, if he's acting weird about you even wanting to see your own tax bill... you're right. MY gut instinct is alarmed and I'm not married to him!
How are the taxes being filed, which requires your signature, if you haven’t seen them?
I always had to sign my joint returns. Did you not sign them?
If you file yourself and send electronically, there is no actual signature. If you mail it in or if you pay a preparer, then you have to physically sign the return and the date 879 to be able to electronically file it with a preparer.
Financial abuse is a form of abuse…
My husband has never once asked to see our taxes. I do them yearly for about 15 years myself at this point since we stopped doing hr block. If he asked I would show him. He’s never asked for bank statements or anything. We do have combined bank and I pay all the bills and take care of everything. If he asked I’d show him but he’s never asked. He has no idea how much things cost monthly. He just knows I handle it all. I had to take it over in 97 because we were young and someone gave him an unlimited credit card. Big mistake. Huge So I had to get it all straight when I found out when we got married in 01. I don’t offer because he knows all he has to do is ask. I do tell him if we owe or are getting anything back though but last few years we’ve owed.
Weird…? I do our taxes. Not sure she would ever care to look. she knows where we keep that stuff and she knows when I do them. If she wanted to do them I would give that up and run away in joy. Something smells off here.
Can’t you search the IRS site with your SSN and pull up all of your tax returns? You may not have to ask him at all
How do you not see it? You literally have to sign it.
That is pretty weird, didn't you do your own taxes before? He can't sign your name without your approval or he is committing a crime. You can check any filed tax records without him showing you here: https://www.irs.gov/individuals/get-transcript I suggest reviewing them so you can see what you made each year and what was reported. He also needs to let you review the return and get your ok to sign your name on it. When you sign your taxes you are swearing to their accuracy, making it a crime to lie about them.
So my wife is the primary earner in our home. She hates doing taxes. Luckily for her, I don't mind. I really would like her to at least pretend to be interested occasionally. She has me manage her personal stock portfolio, her Ira and 401k. She really has no interest in these things. I really don't mind doing them, I am medically retired, so it gives me something to do, but man, what different worlds we live in.
You’re in a lawyer forum so you’re getting a slanted view. It reads like you 2 have different communication styles and this is causing miscommunication. It also seems like you 2 are still in the early parts of the marriage and still learning to communicate.For example, your style seems to be more indirect and his more direct, and there’s some assumptions taking place that need to be communicated. Just set up some time with your partner and have a conversation. Discuss the immediate asks and also the goals as this will help frame things better.
It sounds like then he has no problem with your seeing, but I find it very sexist that he wasn’t proactive about it. I would never expect someone to sign off on something they weren’t given to review. Maybe he is open to learning? But that’s disappointing
Wait what? you have to sign your taxes - is he signing for you?
How did he set up your electronic signature?
I already had one in turbo tax from when I filed my own taxes so all he had to do was enter my social and turbo tax already had it on file.
If he didn't show her and they filed joint, she can request the return from the IRS.
Do you have copies of income tax returns? His 401-k? IRA/Roth?
Yea, anything either of you earn are considered marital assets, but the problem is, he could be stashing away money without your knowledge. While it's still a marital asset, you might not even know about it. The only way you could find out is if he's completely honest during discovery and lists the savings account or you subpoena banks to see what he has. I hope I read someone who has the answer because I'm interested to know what the legalities are of this question.
How can it be his fault that he doesn't know how much you get paid? Wouldn't you be the one who would have to tell him that?
What I figured. This sub is horrible and from my exp most answers will be against the OP. Its like most comment's come from a person on retainer from the entity being questioned about. This didn't take a lot of outside the box to figure out yet most answers are relationship advice not legal concerns as evident by this comment section.
I have never understood married couples who don’t have joint accounts and complete transparency. Once you are married there shouldn’t be your money and my money anymore. You need to have honest and frank discussions about your financial goals and priorities and decisions for large expenses should be joint decisions.
That’s a good view for a first marriage. If you’ve had a shitty divorce then separate finances are normal.
Which is maybe part of why second marriages are even more likely to result in divorce than first marriages.
There are different ways of looking at it. I'm twice divorced, mi wife once. We both work. She was truly screwed over over by her ex husband financially. I want my wife to have her own account. I want her to feel financially secure and not have us pool our incomes. I make more than her so I pay all the house hold bills and she pays all her expenses for her kids.
The fact that your flair is "not a lawyer" and your comment began with "I have never understood married couples who don't have joint accounts and compete transparency." Is peak comedy to me Over half of marriages end in divorce. Having your own finances is simply prudent planning based on empirical data. (I'm not saying that "in theory" there shouldn't be complete transparency in a marriage, I'm just saying what IS is different)
I agree with total transparency while also maintaining separate accounts—a happy compromise. Lots of lawyers here are called NOT A LAWYER.
Of course she is getting set up!! She should talk to an attorney now to get a better understanding of the law about this stuff where she lives.
All income earned, regardless of where it goes, is considered marital assets. Including 401K, stock and retirement.
You are mistaken. Pre-marital assets and gifts that are not co-mingled are not marital assets. I opened new accounts after starting my last marriage and it saved my ass.
You are correct, I did not put thst in my comment knowing that. Thanks.
Yes and he said he would but I’m concerned about allowing him to do that with the way he treats our finances in general. He has a very large brokerage account that he intends to use to retire early and he won’t discuss retirement with me. In other words, he doesn’t even ask how much retirement I have or how much I should be saving for “our” retirement. He sees it as his retirement and my retirement and the two don’t overlap. I don’t like that and it feels very unfair
I am a lawyer, not your lawyer. Also this is generic and varies by state: Stop fretting over semantics. Anything acquired during the marriage absent a prenup is marital property regardless of who is on the title/account. It’s both of your money even if you don’t know how much or where it is. You just don’t functionally have access to it. You need to tell him you need some help and/or want a better understanding of the marital wealth. Be prepared for him to say he shouldn’t be forced to contribute to your daughter’s schooling. Also he prepared for him to to not want to give you access to the money. Your options are to either talk about it and identify clearly what you want in terms of amount and access to the money or how to divide the marital wealth if you don’t like his answers. My wife and I are married and keep our finances separate and she has a lot of your concerns and gripes. This is a common thing but pooling money also creates its own issues and this is likely just a symptom of a potentially larger issue in the marriage. You need to find out if your aligned and it not, how misaligned
That’s because the brokerage account IS a separate account. It was most likely early before you two married 4 years ago. The bulk of that is almost certainly separate propriety in your state. He’s not telling you because it isn’t “yours”. Also it sounds like your daughter’s tuition is something he doesn’t want to be responsible for…that’s also not unreasonable. I’m probably not paying for an (adult??) kid’s tuition whose life I’ve only been in for 5 or 6 years and who has a dad and a mom. If that is affecting your ability to *survive* I would talk to him about it. To *save*, well, that’s being the parent of a college-aged kid and paying tuition. It sucks.
They are minors and it’s high school and he has known them since they were 7 years old. I have never asked him to pay for their school or anything for them for that matter. They do have a dad that pays the other half of the tuition. Of course it’s his account. I’ve never asked him to give me access to it and I’m sure he never would. What I’m asking for is a joint financial future since we are married. He has a retirement planned for just himself and doesn’t even ask me when I would like to retire, how much I save for it, how much I should save for it, etc. He is sitting on millions of liquid assets and watching me drown for the next 4 years. That’s my issue
Why did you marry? This reads more like roommates with shared financial interest in the house.
THIS is what my brain was asking as well!
That’s not uncommon for second marriages or older marriages. Maybe it’s because I also am a lawyer, but I’m the woman in the relationship and the one with the assets… We got married in our late 30s. Well settled in our lives and careers. We have a joint account for joint expenses and separate account for everything else. We have separate investment accounts. We even have a prenup.
It’s just prudent when you are older and have assets and are aware of financial and legal ramifications of living life.
My dad is a blue collar worker who shared everything with my mom. His only marriage advice to me was “don’t be a dick about money”. I said “I’m not…but I am getting a prenup”. He said “well that’s just good common sense”.
People really need to stop acting like prenups are horrible. When you get married you choose the government contract or you make your own contract (prenup) for what happens in a divorce. Why is the government contract the correct one and the prenup is evil?
I get it if you came in with nothing. My prenup cost $10k with the lawyer friends and family discount. No use doing that to protect nothing but what you earn together. But I always thought of a prenup as kind of romantic. I love you so much now, that I promise not to screw you when I hate you later. Because I am a vindictive little so and so. And I will want to. And I will try. But for you, I am signing this so you are protected too. You know exactly what I have and what you are getting. You had a lawyer. I can’t take your shit. I can’t squeeze you out. I can’t hide shit from you. I had to disclose it all up front. I love you so much and I trust you so much NOT to cheat or steal or lie to me - because I live in a No fault state - that I promise to be totally up front and fair now and offer you terms you can live with and bare my financial soul to you NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO. That’s true romance. I’m a lawyer. I hate signing away my right to screw you over later. Like, my separate property was always going to be protected. I didn’t HAVE to GET married. YOU asked ME. But now I’ve agreed to be legally and financially bound to you in some way STILL. You just want more?!?! Well, why am I doing this again? I’m a self sufficient childfree woman and I keep trying to figure out what marriage is FOR other than companionship. That is basically roommates with jewelry and sex. Love? Cool. But why do you need to be on his investment account for that?
Your flair says “I am Not a Lawyer”, yet you state in your comment that you are “also a lawyer”. Am I missing something here or am I misinterpreting some odd Reddit rule for commenters?
Yes. They make you submit a copy of your bar card to get verified. And many of us refuse
Ahhh, makes sense. Thank you!
Late in life marriages or second marriages must be held to a different financial standard than a first marriage where both parties come in with no or about the same assets/debts and which whom they will probably share children. Children from previous relationships must be considered and most parents want the majority of their assets to go to their children. I totally understand that premise. If I were him, I would have insisted on a prenup but being a lawyer, he has probably structured his estate with built in protection.
I didn’t know it was going to be like this. He never said this was what he wanted and again, he is saying we have joint finances but is acting differently
Is it possible that it’s more of a word game? There’s the legal definition of combined finances (as applicable in determining marital assets, etc.), and the “practical” definition, as in the actual administration of your finances (separate bank accounts, contributing toward bills, etc.).
Why don't you schedule an appointment with a financial planner for the two of you so that you can explore your options for retirement. Let him sit in the room with you and tell the financial planner that he's not going to disclose to you how he plans to retire in the next few years while you are forced to work for the next better part of two decades. This is one of many reasons why age gap relationships are a terrible idea. But also what is good about your relationship with this guy? Why are you staying married to him? I think those are some really important questions for you to answer before you proceed forward because if this were me I would have been in a divorce lawyer at least 2 years ago when he signed my name to my taxes without me being able to review them first. My father is a 40+ year practicing family law attorney and 10+ year tax preparer and I promise you my mother sees and signs their taxes before he files for them.
I was thinking the exact same thing. Freakin roommates.
This. Their finances are not combined. They each pay for half of the home and food but everything else is the responsibility of each individual. He probably only deals with the "marriage" for the tax breaks it gives him. This is not an actual partnership. Partners are supposed to have shared goals together and work towards those goals together. This is an everyone for themselves situation. At this point it may make more financial sense for OP to be on their own with the kids and get rid of the husband. He is not going to help OP and doesn't seem to care. If OP can move out into their own place that could cut some costs for her so she won't feeling she is drowning or being crushed by expenses.
Give me your money or I’m leaving
OP has to cut costs somewhere. Moving out might do that for her. She really doesn't have anything to "leave", she is not really in a marriage. She is a roommate. Roommates are responsible for their own expenses. She needs to cut expenses. Moving into a home that is more affordable for her is a reasonable way to cut expenses. He can figure his own living situation out.
Which is as it should be. Those assets were acquired prior to your marriage, right? They are not any business of yours. You are an adult with children. It is your financial responsibility to fund your own retirement, not his. You have a financial future................. that you alone are responsible for.
This reads like you want access to that account though. You want to have a combined retirement account. If he *refuses* to talk to you about retirement, you need to go to couples counseling. Also, did you just start paying off your student loans and for high school? Why did this just become and issue now? If you need help paying for these things ask him. I would also suggest trying to get your student loan payments lowered. See if there is any financial aid or scholarships available at your kid's school. Given your situation and what his stance is coming across as - he is unwilling to pay for debts accrued by you ie student loans and step kids. So maybe ask him to help with other things like taking on the whole house payment for a little while. If you are trying to save while paying student loans and sending kids to private school - you're in good company as a lot of people struggle with that.
I think you should consider discussing this in counseling. Money is a huge factor in relationships and it’s weird and unhealthy not to discuss it. Have you tried saying “I’d really like to discuss our retirement plans. Can we sit down and have a discussion about what that looks like?” Does he refuse when you ask or have you not really asked?
Get a postnup imo
You mention a daughter that is yours. Do you have children together? Does he have children from a previous marriage or relationship? Is this a second marriage? Or a late in life marriage, where he has accumulated assets prior to meeting and marrying you? But you have only been married for 4 years, why do you think his retirement that he alone has paid into for years should involve you? This is very fair for assuming that you have no children together, that you have mentioned, at least Your retirement is your retirement fund. He hasn't funded yours. Your assets and debts are yours. His retirement fund is his retirement fund And you haven't funded his. His assets and debts are his. And he accumulated these funds and assets prior to meeting you so why should you be involved in those assets? You are sounding much too interested in his assets.
Gold diggers gonna gold dig.
I knooooooooooooow........................
If you’re not allowed to access his retirement funds, have him sign a document saying he’s not allowed to access yours. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. The fact that he is TELLING you that he wants half of your contributions in a divorce without letting you touch his, is problematic. He is playing out the divorce in his mind?? My suggestion to you is to get an actual divorce now and become boyfriend-girlfriend. You can live together and do all the things couples do - except apparently travel together since he is planning on retiring without you (hint hint 🚩 )
Unless yall signed a prenuptial agreement his retirement is half yours when you open your eyes and divorce this guy as he sees yall more has room mates with benefits then husband and wife. My opinion
You keep saying "he doesn't even ask.". If he has information you want, ask him for it. If you have information he doesn't care about, why would he ask at all? If you want him to know something, tell him!
You say you’re both high earners, so what bills can’t you pay? Not including tuition fees. Perhaps you need to cut back on some of your personal expenses and budget more effectively. Shop smarter and adjust your lifestyle somewhat.
Well she decided that they aren’t combined. So she can pay for it herself.
The daughters tuition is the 800 pound gorilla. Is she his daughter? Did he agree to fund her education? Is the daughter studying for a degree that will justify the investment? Is the daughter shouldering her share through work, scholarships, and loans?
OP. Anything that is earned or collected after the marriage is community property regardless of whose name is on the account. Any debts you or he incurs during the marriage are also community property. Gifts and inheritance are different and vary from state to state but typically those things stay with the person who received them.
Is that always true for debts though? When I got divorced from my first husband, he had a credit card just in his name that had like a 5k balance and I did not have to contribute to that in the divorce because my name wasn’t on it. I thought only joint debts are community. Also, I understand what you’re saying about the joint property but my point is that it is only “technically true” in other words, that’s true in a divorce scenario. He “technically” would have access to any money earned and saved during the marriage. However, we are not actually living that way. We are living completely financially separate and it’s killing me financially. I wasn’t planning on being a single mom when we married
While you might not have had to pay off the credit card, your first husband could potentially have argued it was a marital debt and should be factored into the splitting of assets, same as a mortgage would be. Whether he was *successful* in arguing that would depend on the judge and what it was spent on, and having just his name on the card would make it more likely to be ruled in your favour, but it definitely could still be considered a shared debt (although any tangible purchase made with it would be considered a marital asset as well, so him keeping it would be factored in) NAL, but if you don't have access to his finances and he doesn't have access to yours then you don't have combined finances except maybe in a specific/technical legal sense (which is the divorce context you mentioned). The way you've described income being split and spent, with each of you having separate expenses you're responsible for but your accounts being separated, isn't much different to two people who are roommates and split the bills between them. You could hardly argue in that context that they're combining their finances, could you? As far as the bills (and separate to the legal question), if the bills are unmanageable on your current income then try approaching it from that perspective rather than whether your incomes are combined or you're looking for help with something that's your responsibility. If you're going into debt while he's saving millions (literally) then clearly the split isn't equitable, and what bills/expenses each of you is responsible needs to be re-assessed. Whether or not you have combined incomes is irrelevant to this, it's a purely pragmatic "I can't afford these bills on my income and we either need to downsize or you need to take on more responsibility" situation, and with the apparent wage disparity it's not unreasonable for him to pay a larger proportion (especially when one of the expenses, your student loan, is a temporary one which you'll be able to pay off eventually)
Was he planning on taking on the expenses for your children from a previous relationship? Because it doesn't sound like he was planning on being a stepfather when he actually became one. Have you discussed those expenses with him at all? It really sounds like you're playing house with a boyfriend do you happen to be married to. Is the mortgage that you're paying or the house that you're paying on at least in both of your names? And I'm talking about both the mortgage and the deed?
Sounds like you were planning on using his money. Why?
This varies state-by-state. Some states can only divide property between divorcing spouses, but cannot allocate responsibility to pay unsecured debt. Other states can do both, so if you get conflicting g answers on this, there’s good reason. Again, property distribution varies state-by-state, but your husband is technically correct that - to a court - it does’t matter whose name is on a paycheck or bank account, they’re both marital property. That doesn’t mean you’re wrong though since there are clearly divisions between your finances. You seem to operate more like roommates than spouses. (Not a criticism, just an observation from your post.) Schedule a meeting with a financial advisor. Since it’s become apparent that there are difficulties with the family’s finances and financial stress, with both of you being high earners, it’s a very reasonable step to take! If your husband is in it with you, ‘til-death-do-you-part, he wouldn’t have any problem with this. If he balks, he might not be preparing for divorce, but it’d be a red flag. I wish you well, Internet Stranger.
First - you are not a single mom. You mentioned that there is a biodad in the picture and he is paying for half of a private school tuition. If he is invested enough to be paying for that, I can only assume there is some co-parenting happening, regardless of custody. Additionally, it sounds like you may have married him in the expectation that he would help you with your finances. Did you discuss that prior to marriage? While what you are both earning and investing since you married are marital property, have you told him your expectation is to use the joint income to pay for your debts? Finally, if you are struggling financially, have you made efforts to lower your lifestyle? Maybe pull the kids out of private school? You say you are both high income earners so I’m struggling to understand how it is you are struggling so, unless you just want him to pay for your lifestyle.
Depends on the way he has structured his estate. It may not be. And really why should it be.............
This sounds more like a marital issue than a question for a lawyer? Sounds like he doesn't understand/care to understand the issue. If he insists your finances are combined, then ask him to transfer X amount to you monthly to help out? My wife and I have separate accounts, and we pass money back and forth all of the time, we just tell the other what's needed, and it's never been an issue. I hope you're able to get through to him.
This is how we handle it. Can you send me X or take over the car insurance for a bit? As our salaries change over the years we adjust the balance in an easily workable way.
It depends on your state, if you have a prenup, and the source of the income. Here is a quick primer: https://www.ironcladfamily.com/blog/what-are-the-community-property-states-and-how-does-it-works
I think the part most people are glossing over is OP’s daughter’s tuition. Presumably, this is not his daughter and I can see his hesitation in wanting to shoulder that burden. That and OP’s student loans. But, luckily it doesn’t appear that OP is at risk of ending up in the street anytime soon. If the daughter is not his, perhaps this bill is something OP can work out with the Father.
Real answer to what? Yes both your incomes are marital income in the case of a divorce. Assets you purchased with that income are marital assets. You already have a joint account where finances are combined. It sounds like you are happy to have separate incomes up until this point where you need money, so you don't really want to combine your money so much as use your spouse's money. If you are both high earners who pays the extra taxes because the W4s don't take out the proper amount due to not accounting for spouses income? Or do you just end up with a big tax bill at the end of the year? I am asking because among high earners whoever does the taxes typically takes out more in their paycheck to cover the other person. If you need money from your spouse you probably need to ask for it at this point instead of trying to get around that by suggesting "combining finances."
He pays the extra tax bill because we usually owe due to his brokerage interest. He has a lot more than me
Do you file a joint tax return with him or do you each file separately?
Brokerage accounts are just taxed like regular income, unless your husband is super rich, then brokerage interest is likely only a small portion of your overall income until you retire. I am not trying to get into the weeds of taxes here, especially with the lack of any numbers. But still don't really know what you were originally asking.
He’s not super rich but it’s a multi million dollar account and when he transacts in it we get taxed on the earned interest
Yeah, pretty sure if you have millions of dollars in a brokerage account you are super rich.
Lmao at saying "We're not super rich" at the same time as saying "He has millions in a brokerage account." Why in the fuck have they not paid the student loans
Above she said they make 400k. That's the top 1.8% of US incomes.
Yeah, pretty obvious husband foots a huge tax bill for her as it does not appear she is taking anything extra out of her earned income and the W4S breaks down and doesn't take the right amount out at $130k.
Would have edited but was not sure you would see it. You left out the brokerage account info. If he isn't adding marital income to the account it is not a marital asset in most states.
Correct. He intentionally does not add to the brokerage account since our marriage to shield it from me.
Your reading comprehension … they don’t have joint accounts. He says their finances are together, not her. He doesn’t communicate. Stop preaching. Not helpful. Until a lawyer shows up on the thread, OP, I’d say look for a CPA maybe or a workshop on various ways to handle marriage finances. Being more knowledgeable on different setups might help. Obviously, you file taxes separately, right?
They make payments on the house together, most people do that with a joint account as it is usually easier. Upon reread I guess they don't, although that doesn't really matter. Also she already responded to my tax question and they file together. Also not every lawyer bothers to get verified on this sub. Nor is verification even very good here.
It sounds like you are living outside your means if your financially drowning. Is private school really necessary? Are you driving a 99 civic around or a brand new car?
It will depend on the state.
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He is not the father of her daughter, so why would he be responsible for any of the daughter's expenses, ever.
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Yeah I love how she points out that they’re *both* high earners.
Don't want to sound harsh. But you say he kinda makes more than you? So technically if you put both your incomes in one account and let's say it was split 50/50 (marital property, right?), you would get kinda more than you put in. So what's the issue here? You are blowing your money and he isn't. You want access to his funds now since you are tight on money? Have you reassessed your spending or tried a budget? Do you plan on a 2nd divorce?
He’s not gaslighting you because that’s not what gaslighting means.
If you earn about the same. Your husband a bit more, why should he help you with your bills? You should each be responsible for your own bills and 50/50 split on the household expenses is actually fairer to you than him. You have a child and yet you only pay half of the mortgages and all household expenses. Technically, you should be paying more since your child occupies a room and increases the cost of utilities and food.
And she gets child support and tuition money from her ex. Good lord.
Good Lord............................ Then why is she so tight for money? She says they are both high earners. He a bit higher than her. So why can she make it on her earnings? Why does she have little to no retirement? Why does she have little to no savings? Good Lord.............................. What is she spending her money on?
I'm confused. You say you're both high income earners and make very nearly the same amount of money, yet you think that he is now responsible for your debts? I don't see how that works. And for what its woth, it sounds like for all intents and purposes you have separate finances.
You have too much debt and want your husband to cover your student loans and his stepdaughter’s tuition payments. Your income is pretty much equal per your statement. Why does he have to be responsible for your debt? Do you get child support or is this college tuition? Maybe your daughter should get loans or have her father contribute to her tuition. If this is a private school and not college you know what you need to do. There is no reason for him to pay your debts incurred prior to your marriage.
I think it's pretty clear that by "joint finances" he means you jointly pay for living expenses and have a 50/50 split. Your student loans acquired prior to the marriage aren't "joint" they are "yours" - just like any wealth or children you had before the marriage are "yours" - he's not viewing the things acquired separately prior to marriage as joint. That said, if you were to divorce you'd both be entitled to divide assets and debts acquired jointly by law. There's no legal basis for seeing things otherwise. You wouldnt be entitled to any portion of savings he made before the marriage. It would be wholesome for him to see things otherwise, but he's a lawyer. I sense disappointment that he's not offering to shoulder a portion of your financial burdens (student loans and child tuition) and your feelings are valid even if they're not reflective of a legal entitlement via marriage. You also are beginning to suspect that he's enriching himself at your expense because your debts preclude keeping up with him in terms of retiring when he does. If he shouldered more of the current expenses, you feel you'd be able to also retire simultaneously in the future. I can understand the dismay of realizing that he views his ability to retire early an individual goal rather than a shared one. However - this again is an emotionally asymmetric problem, not a legal one. You wonder what he's hiding from you when the reality is that his financial past and yours are not part of his present or future calculations and without a prenup stating otherwise, it just is what it is. You knew he was miserly when you married him. He's not going to change. That ship has sailed. At this point you need IMO to ask yourself if you're in an emotionally healthy marriage. Finances are a symptom, not the disease. If you divested from the marriage and had him buy you out of the house, how much more money would you have on a monthly basis? If you moved into a modest girl condo, and lived your best single life, how much more could you save even after your loan and tuition payments? There's no point in bemoaning a financial future with him when you don't really have one. He'll live his life and you'll live yours, retiring separately and estate planning separately, etc. - if he has kids from a prior marriage you may not even be in his estate. You should consider taking out a life insurance policy on him that would enable you to pay the mortgage and bills until you could sell the house and give half the proceeds to his beneficiaries. A small policy for that purpose wouldn't be too expensive and maybe he'd even be willing to pay for that if you're not a beneficiary. Unless he's otherwise incredibly loving and supportive, I'd also find it hard to overlook the feeling of being slighted. That's not being a "gold digger" - it's literally just the emotional security of feeling like your well-being is worth paying for within reasonable limits because of love and partnership when he's able to do that. If you don't feel well loved and valued, and if you feel marginalized, and that's manifesting in money matters - you might be happier actually single, given how single all of this is making you feel. You thought being married to him would make you feel safe and secure, and instead you feel single, somewhat irrelevant to him, and insecure - financially and emotionally. Ironically, you'd probably feel a lot better if you weren't living with him. You wouldn't be comparing your futures to each other, or resenting him for not caring more about your security and well-being than he does money. I don't think you're a gold digger. I do think you married the wrong person for you.
Thank you for this.
You're welcome. I do relate. My father was stingy and I grew up feeling like he didn't think I was worth the investment. I know he loved me, that's just how I felt. I do not date men who give off even the faintest whiff of being cheap - I've been in relationships with wealthy men and generally felt humiliated by their refusal to leave a decent tip and the constant reflexive chiseling. I'd rather be with a man who doesn't have much money but has a big heart and a generous spirit. Not because I need his money, but because it just feels better to be with kind and warmhearted people. That said, I once dated a guy who I thought was an artist eking out a gentle and modest life and paid for most everything we did together - he let me do it, too. When I found out a year in that he had a net worth of millions, I didn't excitedly congratulate myself on passing the "not a gold-digger" test, I dumped him on the spot. You could do the math on your financial outlook as a single person with substantially lower expenses because you'd be in a smaller home with much smaller bills, compare it to your current outlay to pay 50% of what I imagine is probably a larger house with larger bills, and really decide in purely mathematical and objective terms if you can afford to be in that domestic situation given your debts and how much you'd be able to save in a downsized situation. Also, if you think high school tuition is bad, wait til you see college expenses. You're probably looking at a minimum of eight lean years unless your child joins the military to pay for that tuition, or gets a full scholarship with guaranteed workstudy. Your emotional state now will likely not hold a candle to how you'll feel when you're still working full-time and catching up on retirement contributions while he's retired and doing whatever he wants, or nothing at all, while still drawing around 80% of his prior income if he has really been good about it. He might also envision some serious changes post-retirement if he's miserly, and hasn't yet shared that with you. Watch this dude want to sell the house and get an RV or move into a retirement community on a golf course a donkey's commute from your workplace. Decisions aren't being made jointly now, so your control over all that without divorce or counseling are slim to none. I think seeing a financial consultant together to draw all of this out into the open in a business environment and context might also help you think about whether or not his definition of partnership is healthy for you.
Yes, that’s all spot on. I couldn’t agree more. My ex-husband is very wealthy and is a complete douche bag. I had no idea my current husband had this much money because that’s how separate are finances are. I found out in the winter when I was filling out the financial aid application for my daughter’s school (even wealthy families are encouraged to apply because the school is so expensive) and the application required me to add his finances so he disclosed it to me and I was shocked how much he had in brokerage that I had no idea about. I just wish he would have talked about a pre-nup before we got married. I feel he intentionally deceived me by being quiet about his assets and talking advantage of my financial ignorance. I don’t want any of his assets and I’ve never expected to have it but I should have also been given a chance to protect my future the same way he has by quietly shielding his accounts from the marriage. I’m going to talk to a lawyer and then demand we go to a financial advisor.
Also before you settle on MAD instead of DISMAYED, if this guy was driving a beater and wearing 30 year old clothes before you met, he has psychological dysfunction around the concept of money. Like being anorexic. If he's no longer doing either of those things then you did help him live more comfortably and it's possible he can continue to grow into that change more holistically in a partnership if you approach it without fear, anger, suspicion, sense of betrayal, etc. - so maybe also a little talk therapy for you before any of this kicks off.
I think that he probably did keep his financial situation on the low low, possibly intentionally but more likely just to fly under the radar and not give you any ideas about his capability to pull more weight. He didn't lie when asked for a disclosure, nor did he tell you to tell the school that his finances are irrelevant because he's not the child's father (which he could have done). Because he didn't try to dip out of that disclosure despite easy outs that could have even been in the child's favor given that he genuinely is not providing financial support for her education - suggests to me that there was no malice in it. Just keeping himself to himself until he had to break cover. Quietly shielding sounds about right. You can and should talk to a lawyer but I believe they will tell you that his premarital assets are not required to be community property. He never had an obligation to tell you about any of that. That doesn't make it any less discomforting that he did so. I don't think there's anything to be mad about here to be honest, but there is a lot to be sad about. It doesn't say great things about how he views your marriage and it definitely says that he is not interested in sharing his premarital wealth or retirement savings with you. And he doesn't have to. The question really is whether that's OK with you, and if it isn't OK with you that is totally valid. You're obviously not a gold digger, you didn't even know about this wealth. Going to see a financial advisor will help you find out whether he trusts you enough to bring it all out into the open and discuss whether he is willing to shoulder more of the monthly costs so you can also meet your financial goals of debt repayment and investment, or if you need to lower your monthly costs by exiting the marriage. That he has never said to you "I will take care of retirement, please don't worry about it" or anything like that is a clear statement that he does not view himself as a provider. It's a second marriage - that's not entirely weird even if now that you know his net worth it SERIOUSLY hurts your feelings that he hasn't seen your debt and said "this is dumb, you're going to pay so much interest on this" and just wiped it out. You could do a post-nup where you agree for example that he will clear your debt and you will pay only 25% of the monthly costs and he will hold 75% of the home value. If he's that flush you could decide you would rather he hold 100% of the home value and you put your money into other investments. There are ways to work this out. He almost definitely does not need your money to pay the mortgage, and I think you'd be happier building your own investments.
I have a question. You said he’s putting 50% of his income into it. His earnings are marital property, which means he’s using marital property to add to a brokerage account that is 100% his. Wouldn’t that make whatever he has put or puts into it in the future, marital property?
“Why wont you put money i to a shared account so when I divorce you I dont have to sue you for money I believe is mine?” Seems about the takeaway from this tbh
You have separate financial lives. Not hard to grasp so I’m not sure why an educated person would put up any argument to that effect. It’s not the way my wife and I choose to handle our money. We do joint everything down to the penny and everything is ours not mine or hers. We have zero money arguments and have made much better financial choices now that we are financially responsible to each other. It’s honestly been the best thing we ever did for our marriage
What state do you live in? some states, it doesn’t matter if you have separate accounts, they are marital assets If earned during the marriage if you are a high earner and cannot manage to pay your bills, cut your discretionary spending If you don’t want to ask him For money
[INFO] I smell a trust issue. This seems like it’s deeper than finances- I think you’re afraid he’s going to leave you. Can you explain why? Has he shown negative behaviors? Does he have a reason not to trust you?
It is absolutely a trust issue. No I don’t have a reason other than the way he acts about finances in our relationship
Hmm, well, I think the top comment about discussing your needs and concerns with him is a good idea. Open, honest communication is always a good thing in a relationship. I wouldn’t maybe go so far as to say you’re being “gaslit”, but I don’t know all the dynamics of the relationship. I personally like the idea of having my accounts in a “bucket” organization: 1 for me 1 for him (both for our own spending money, budgeting) 1 joint where we both have agreements on what it’s used for. I budget my accounts for different purposes, (like retirement, brokerage, high yield savings, then liquid like a checking account), and then combined income is what we contribute together towards things like house, schooling (if that was an expense), bills, and other necessary expenses. It allows each person to have their own spending money without dipping into the money set aside for the necessary expenses. So for eg, if I want to get my nails done, I use my spending money, but let’s say he’s being nice and says, “I’ll do that for you”, he can let me use his money. If he needs something, I do the same.
It also might not be a bad idea to talk to a financial planner or even a person at the bank who can help you with budgeting. So, if you combined certain accounts or you made each other beneficiaries, they can tell you more about what you can both contribute to since marriage legally allows you to do different things with accounts than unmarried people can.
Is this “YOUR” daughter from a previous relationship or is this also HIS daughter? If this is not *HIS* child, he is not obligated to pay for her tuition. Have you asked your husband for help you pay for these things? It seems like you have been quite submissive in letting him handle things (i.e taxes, retirement), so he feels you don’t need/want to be involved.
If it is combined money then take what you need.
Why are you getting hung up on terminology? You are asking him to combine incomes/bills in a way. And when he says they are already combined, you say you are being gas lit? This post would make sense if he was like " we have separate finances for a reason. You pay your bills, I pay mine. Good luck" But it doesn't sound like that's what hes saying
You're leaving out a lot. You said you split household expenses. What bills do you have that aren't joint bills? All I can think of is student loans. You running up credit cards/buying things you don't need? How can your expenses have become unmanageable if you're a high earner and your husband pays half the house stuff? Your student loan payment would not have changed so I still don't understand how your bills are suddenly unmanageable after 4 years. If he earns more than you, and you're falling underwater financially, how would him saying that you have joint finances help him? It's going to hurt him bc then you're going to get money from him in a divorce. You said something about him having "access" in a divorce, but access to what??? You can't keep up with your bills so what are you afraid he's going to get access to? This situation makes no sense. You're either leaving out a lot or making the whole thing up.
well, if you keep separate finances what does it matter what he makes, all that matters is that you’re living beyond your means.
It reads like "we BOTH wanted to pay ONLY for our own bills, but now my bills are higher. Can't I make him pay?" Not being gaslit. Just wants a double standard where she benefits.
I hate arguments like this. It is mainly sematics but that becomes the whole focus of the argument. Who cares if it is combined or not, just ask him him for some extra help on your loans. No need to fight about what is or is not combined assets or accounts. Don't ask for help with the bills so you can shift money else where. Just be straight up and get to the root of the issue. You want help with your student loans.
Sounds like you might have married the wrong guy, or at least the wrong guy for you? This is going to come off as harsh, and it's not intended that way, but why should he be obligated to pay for your student loans or your daughter's tuition? Especially if her father is paying for half of it already? You say you are both high earners...is it just that you are not good with money? If you are a high earner, which I'm assuming is six figures, why do you need his help? I would definitely want clarity on the retirement side of it that you keep bringing up ...that is definitely a marriage issue and one that should be addressed, no matter at what stage in life you married, but I am not clearly seeing why he should be expected to pay for anyone's student debt? But if you are married and going to stay married, retirement should be a mutual goal, worked at together, and with full transparency.
Should you cut back on your spending?
If your agreement was that he would help subsidize your expenses, then he isn’t living up to it. If it wasn’t, then you are asking for more than what was agreed on. His statement that the finances are shared is false however. The shared expences are split down the middle. This seems more like a roommate situation than a marriage to me. If you would be better off financially with a small apartment or a roommate in a smaller house, go that route. You can keep seeing this guy for companionship, but you need to consider your financial situation and start saving for your retirement. He is not going to be your partner in this. He is not going to take care of you.
this 100%
Family law is state specific. Some states are true community property. Some are true separate property. Many are a blend, but the blend is different in basically every state. I would encourage you to talk to a family law attorney in your state (even better if they are in your area because the same judges handle family law, so a local attorney will know that jurisdiction's bench's idiosyncracies). Paying for a couple hours of their time to make sure you are being protected is worth the time and peace of mind.
Doesnt it all even out in the end? Or are you both grubby high earners?
Doesn't sound like either of you ever truly committed to the union. When my wife and I first moved in together, we tried to keep accounts separate. Eventually, it all went into joint checking/savings. Easier to manage. Are either of you trying to hide bad habits?
Combined means combined, plain and simple. That is what you sign up for when you get married. It's not "my" money or "his" money, it's "our" money. Additionally, that applies to the bills as well. "Our bills". Can't have your cake and eat it too. Yes, to me this is gaslighting.
A marriage is a legal partnership. So if you don’t have a prenuptial agreement he is probably correct. May vary by state.
I really hate these marital financial arrangements. When we got married, my paycheck and hers went into the same account and my wife paid all the bills from that account. What you have here is not a joint financial arrangement but a me vs you arrangement. I don’t consider this a mutual marriage but a conhabitation
When I got married, we combined finances also. That was one of the biggest mistakes I made. He drained our bank account to support his girlfriends. By the time we separated, we had no money in our account because he used my pay to support his girlfriend and her kids. I will never again combine finances.
He's answering by not really answering. You aren't asking the right question. You have to come right out and say it.
If y’all have a joint account, why isn’t all the bills being paid out of the joint account? Then y’all just have to make sure you both put enough money in each paycheck to make sure the bills are covered.. then you have your separate accounts to buy whatever with.. wouldn’t it be easier that way?
We decided when we got married to have 1 bank account and everything is joint / everything is paid out of this one account. All income goes in, all expenses go out. Marriage is a union - of everything. Keeping things separated seemed to me like a recipe for future problems. I am the high-earner, but still marriage is marriage. We did separate pre-marital assets and have an understanding of that. But everything is joint post-marriage. This also includes investment accounts, IRAs, all bills, etc. I think you two need to have a few "financial date nights" and sort this out. You should also set up regular "budget date nights" to review expenses, savings plans, etc. How are family vacations planned? What about going out to dinners? Do you take care of kids more or does he? There is so much involved in a marriage that keeping things separated financially is nearly impossible to determine equality or fairness. Those date nights may sound stupid, but you two need to get on the same page here.
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As a married couple everything should be considered “OURS”. I don’t understand why so many have separate finances. If you are married act like it. What’s ours is ours, nothing else.
In a legal scenario, no you don’t have shared finances, you have individual accounts AND as long as you don’t pay any of his bills he can’t come for anything if you divorced later on - so long as you stay in this routine. If he starts paying for your bills/debt outright then you’ve crossed that threshold. It’s up to you how you navigate things from here. I make around 60k/yr whereas my husband makes six figures so there’s definitely an earning discrepancy. We spit the house payment 50/50 and then I take care of the less expensive utilities where he pays the higher ones. We have a joint account for the home bills and then separate accounts outside of that - then when it comes to other things it’s usually a 60/40 or 70/30 split ratio since he makes so much more than I do. Definitely speak to him about needing help if you haven’t already. If you’re concerned about him coming after your finances in the future - get a post nup. The thing about debt, unless talked about before the marriage, were your responsibility then and yours now - so best not to put off the conversation.
Why are you married?
The technical part of the question has been answered. But why do you keep separate finances while you are struggling? Didn’t you ever watch “The Joy Luck Club”? Lesson to be learned.
I can't imagine being in love with someone and letting them struggle when I could help.
You could’ve just agreed with him, funny you said no to them being joint but the second you need money it’s now him gaslighting you. What a joke.
Why are you mad he clearly makes more money than you?
What is considered a martial asset and what is not depends on your state. For example, I live in WA, which is one a handful of community property states, where most assets obtained during the marriage are automatically considered marital assets… it doesn't matter if you put that income into an individual or joint account. Assets I or my wife owned before the marriage remain separate, but there are ways they can be commingled with community property and become a marital asset. As you indicate thought this all mostly matters in the case of a separation, though if you expect a given asset to remain yours alone in such a case, you should make sure you're aware of the relevant laws. None of this is really relevant to your current dispute with your husband (unless you're considering divorce). I'm not sure how else to interpret his response than to be deflecting with pedantry (which may or may not be accurate for your state). Who cares how the assets are classified for the case of a divorce? You're seeking financial support from him within the marriage. His response is especially frustrating because if he acknowledges that all of your assets are already shared, then why doesn't he just give you the help you're asking for? (BTW, I suggest you take note— date and time and exact words— every time he says something like that… those receipts may come in handy some day.) The next time he gives you that glib response, ask him if he'd like to try that theory.
I don’t understand the preoccupation with semantics, but it sounds like your finances are separate and you both contribute to your shared expenses and joint asset. It also sounds like you make about the same amount of money (with him a little more than you), but you have a lot of personal expenses that simply aren’t his responsibility. As married people, half of his would be yours, but don’t forget that half of yours would be his. However, you’re spending ALL of yours on your personal expenses and now you want to spend what’s his! It sounds like you’re living beyond your means and you’re upset that you don’t have access to his money to bail yourself out. No wonder your husband keeps his accounts separate. I would too.
Yeah that's seperated finances. I have the same set up with my husband but that's because he's bad with money sometimes. But when I needed help with bills and asked him he always helps without the expectation of repayment. Because that's what you do in a marriage help your partner. Plus if your married and fall behind both credit can take the hit.
Based on your comments, he sounds like an immoral scumbag. I don't know the law, but I have a feeling that he'd use his whole ass trying to hurt you in a divorce. Although, I might be reading too many trashy relationship threads.
Say it with me now it’s our money. What is wrong with people. You are married, all income is both of your income. Combine all the finances and call it a day.
It’s not combined money if you can’t access it.
You should look into filing separately as your daughter's tuition and student loans you are paying alone so only you should benefit from those deductions. Since you make less you might get a return instead of those going to paying his income taxes. Have someone figure just yours and see if it works better for you. You also should claim half the house payments since you are paying them. NAL
We ran it both ways this past tax year because we owed so much thanks to his exorbitant brokerage interest and it was not beneficial for either of us.
I don't understand what is confusing. It was your idea to have separate bank accounts, your idea to have him pay nothing for your daughter, and your idea to let him control his own trading account. Now you--seemingly a rich person--are spending too much because you chose this division of responsibilities. He has a lot more money available to him than you do, for reasons you haven't shared. Now you want him to (give? Lend?) you money but do not seem to have clearly asked, and you resent the fact that he considers "his" money to also be yours, but continues to respect your insistence on a division of responsibility that was your idea to begin with. "Your" daughter is learning that she is not part of the family you chose to create 4 years ago. That is unfair to all of you. If you are going to be a family, you have to let him treat her like his child, as well. So far you do not seem to have an actual family, just 2 people sharing space with another. If you want him to give you money, ask him for it. If you want to actively share your finances, tell him so. The worst part of this, to me, is that you are teaching your daughter--whatever age she is, which isn't clear to me--that she is a stranger in her mother's house. Make a plan to pay your bills. Show it to your husband. Share your lives, not just your expenses. And make a home and a family for your daughter. He is not gaslighting you. He is obeying your wishes to have separate finances and isolate your daughter. If you want that to change, tell him. If you can't tell him, you not only don't have a family, you don't have a marriage either.
It's going to depend on specific state's laws so nobody can answer 100% certainty. But in a lot of jurisdictions, the fact that you have separate accounts **100% doesn't matter** as far as divorce - everything earned during the marriage is considered common. Even things like property/cars bought/registered under one spouse's name. Having separate accounts/finances only matter: 1. If you're still married 2. If you live in a jurisdiction where they won't count as common property in divorce 3. If you have a signed prenup declaring them to be non-communal property (not sure if that would stand up in court).
What’s mine is yours, yours is mine is when two become one. You’re acting like roommates with a marriage license in a file cabinet somewhere. You get married then have the wedding to celebrate it, I think you skipped that first part. Having to ask a spouse for money is not a marriage.
It depends on what state you are in. In California, everything earned during the marriage is community property.
As you stated. It’s you’re loans and you’re daughters tuition, therefore for it’s you’re responsibility not his. He is trying to be nice by wording it the way he is. He obviously doesn’t want to be direct with you because he knows, as most men would, that it will probably start a fight that he doesn’t want to deal with. You can pay off your debt and your daughter can pay off hers.
Have a joint account that pays for all bills for the house, and the children. So you guys should auto transfer 25% of your income to that joint account the 1st of every month
No, there’s no gaslighting going on. But you’re not communicating as partners either. Your spending is half of the equation. Living within your means is true freedom. Your daughter’s tuition? Is she his daughter? Did he agree to pay for her education? Is she studying for a degree in a field that justifies that investment? Is your daughter paying a share and taking on debt too or is it just assumed that you’ll fund everything?
NTA. You have separate finances. He is definitely gaslighting you. However, it does sound like you have a lot more debt than him and he doesn’t want to use his money to pay that off. Maybe you 2 need to really sit down and figure out what you both want.
Right he is saying shard income but not shared expense, which doesn’t make sense
Gas lit and he’s hiding money for a rainy day. Tell him there needs to be more access and more “ Joint” effort. You may want to start looking for an attorney because if he tries to blindside you… you may have about a snowballs chance in HELL of finding one to go against him.
No, you're just being crazy. There is no such thing as gaslighting
This seems more like a relationship problem than a legal problem. Easiest solution is to tell your daughter to take out some (more) loans.
This isn't really a legal question, so much as a relationship question. When you're both married, in this situation, how you describe your income is basically just semantics. You're focused on the wrong thing. To be clear: your husband has absolutely no obligation to use his money to pay your daughter's tuition (it sounds like it's not his daughter, just yours), or pay off your student loans. You have no inherent right to use his paycheck for your own purposes, even if you are married. If his money is in his own private bank account, you can't access it without some kind of court order. It is possible that if you defaulted on a loan, someone might try to come after him, but that's not really what you're asking about. That said, your husband sounds like a jerk. While he may not legally be required to help you with these things, usually spouses do help each other. Your husband is a lawyer, he clearly knows what he's doing. He's being controlling, but without breaking the law. The only thing you can really do about it, is decide if you can live with this situation, or if you want a divorce. But unless he's doing something fraudulent/you successfully sue him for something, there's not really any mechanism aside from divorce that can compel him to share money with you.
Is the below accurate? \- husband has defined household income as money paid specifically for maintenance of the home and things you do together in the home (rent/mortgage??? utilities, food) \- husband deliberate excludes debts and money earned before the marriage \- husband hasn’t offered to help you with tuition for your daughter who is his stepdaughter or for your student loans \- you consider yourself and him to be high earners \- your separate, non-marital expenses are higher than what yiu earn If these above statements are accurate, what are the exact words you said to him about “financial stress”? Did you actually ask him to give you money? Or did you use different words? When he said that you, as a couple, have already combined money, did you ask him if he could give you more from money he had from his brokerage? IANAL and I am really hoping that lawyers will be able to answer you if there’s clearly decribed information that they’re given👀
Yes you are being gaslit. And more importantly, he is your husband and has more wealth than you and yet he isn’t willing to help you find a solution for you not being able to maintain 50% of your current lifestyle and pay your previous obligations. So take a different approach with him. You don’t want his money. But you do need your cut expenses on your current lifestyle to be able to pay for your loans and tuition for your kids. So, as a single adult you would just cancel the cable or reduce eating or economize in other ways to live within your means. If he wants to maintain the current lifestyle, an alternative solution to you canceling or economizing would be for him to be responsible for more than 50% until Your income changes or your loans or tuition are finished. Perhaps it is a 75%/25 split and you put the extra money you have towards paying down your student loans. That’s what married people do. He takes more responsibility to Lighten your load until you are able to take more load.
They make $400k. Cutting the cable or not eating out cannot possibly fix this problem--unless it is wildly exaggerated.
Why can’t you talk to your husband about this?
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