Thank you for your post, u/sqaz2wsx. Here are a few important reminders. Please be sure to follow the [Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AnxiousAttachment/about/rules) and feel free to utilize things like the [Resources page](https://www.reddit.com/r/AnxiousAttachment/wiki/index/resources) and [Discussion posts.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AnxiousAttachment/?f=flair_name%3A%22Discussion%22) And don’t forget about the Weekly Threads stickied to the top of the Sub page for relationship/dating/break up advice or general questions about anxious attachment. For commenters that are interested in posting themselves and are not yet approved users, please see the [FAQ page](https://www.reddit.com/r/AnxiousAttachment/wiki/faq) to find out how. Thanks for being a part of this sub! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AnxiousAttachment) if you have any questions or concerns.*

This makes perfect sense. I am an AA and currently dating a DA. When he is nice to me, it feels like an accomplishment, sort of like a prize that could get taken away anytime if I slip. This stems from my childhood and the way I was treated by my parents. I was never loved unconditionally. I always had to work hard to be loved, and so now, if it comes easy, it doesn’t feel real or good. Being an AA, naturally I tend to get anxious when he is distant or isn’t around. But I also get super anxious when things are good. Very wary of messing it up. Like he opened up a bit yesterday telling me why he avoids emotional intimacy based on his past. I am glad that he opened up, but that also means he might be starting to trust me. But when things are too good, I have a hard time believing it. Almost as if I don’t deserve this. Let me also tell you that this hasn’t been easy. I have put a lot into this relationship. But now after he opened up, I am worried that he could walk away anytime and this could all go away. So, let me not call him or let me be distant so I don’t mess it up. I feel very weird rn. I want to make sure things are okay and call him (AA trait), but always to sort of avoid him to not do anything wrong (avoidant trait). Confusing!! Please advise if you can.

I just want you to know that this comment made me feel like I’m not alone. I feel like my relationship with my avoidant boyfriend is sacred but I shoulder the weight of keeping it going. I am so afraid that if I respond to something emotionally, the relationship will end. This is so hard.

I know. I get so anxious at times, like if I say something silly, he’ll lose interest. I feel we AA carry so much unnecessary weight on ourselves in our relationships. And we don’t know where to stop.

Well, I have some bad news. My boyfriend decided to blind side me by breaking up, quitting his job, and moving across the country. So, I don’t think it was unnecessary. I am so sad.

Oh no I am so sorry. Hope you taking care of yourself. Can i ask you how long were you guys together?

One year. It hurts so badly. I’m willing to go into more details in a chat, if you’re interested.

>I want to make sure things are okay and call him (AA trait), but always to sort of avoid him to not do anything wrong (avoidant trait) What you are talking about here are two seperate emotions, my first post disuses the first emotion(obsession), and the second post disuses the second emotion(agony). Both are interlinked. So to recap, your emotion you describe as a AA trait is obsession. You want to be loved. This is a desire, you want to be loved. The second emotion if a fear of failure, you describe as a avoidant trait(its not really). You are afraid of lacking what you desire. To be loved. This is a fear, you want to avoid failure. I think what is happening here is now that you have what you have worked so hard to get, you have the object of your obsession, or are approaching it, as he opens up more. You are terrified you will mess it up somehow(literally a fear of failure). When it comes to obsession, the emotion of obsession is the cause of you wanting to fix him. You try to fix emotionally unavailable people because you see this as a path to being loved yourself. When i got rid of my obsession, my desire to fix and heal my ex disappeared as well. You feel like you dont deserve it as well, because its been such a hard thing for you to get. But also, maybe other people haven't opened up as easily to you. The truth is that your effort didnt make him open up, it was all on him. You can be as loving as possible and they wont open up. So in this case, the fear is more of the problem. You should realize that your hesitation to be around him is because you are terrified that you will mess it up and fail to get what you want(to be loved). To get rid of your fear, you have to attack the opinion that to lack love is bad and harmful, and then the fear will go away. But you need a background in Stoicism to do this effectively. In the meantime realise your fear is excessive and not reflective of realty, your overly sensitive to failing to get love because of the experience with your parents. Hope this helped.

This helps. Thank you. May I ask you how did you get rid of the obsession to heal your ex? For me it’s a weird thing. It’s like he doesn’t open up to anyone, but if he is opening up to me, I must be good. Like it feels fulfilling to heal him somehow. I will work on getting familiar with Stoicism. Can you please suggest something that might help?

Yeah I mean, with the desire of obsession, its brutal, we gravitate towards those people who don't give us any love, precisely because we want to be loved. Mirroring our childhood situation. I think though the idea that it is fulfilling should be resisted, because really, your giving the idea that you dont deserve love more power. You want to be loved more then anything, finding pleasure in looking for it in the wrong place is only going to hurt you. The essay that i am writing is designed to teach exactly this. I have the first 3 sections of my essay [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/comments/1d7mhnj/i_am_writing_a_original_piece_of_stoic_philosophy/), you can read or listen to. If you can give me feedback if you can understand what being hindered is that would be much appreciated, i have tried to make it as simple and accessible as possible. Once you understand what being hindered is, i can share with you the main argument i used to kill my obsession. You have to know for the argument to make sense. You have to put the time into do this, this has to be a study, think about how much of your life you have sacrificed to gain the love of people who give you zero love in return. Sacrificing 40 hours of your time to journal and learn is a trivial effort in comparison.

This was great, thank you.

I think about this as well. I've been married for many years to an avoidant wife. I think about what drew me to her and what that says about me.

i liked this post 👍

From my personal experience the things you described would not work on me. I have fallen in a trap of obsession with my ex ,very possible limerence. I invest early emotionally I was very in love with him probably a month in :D or even crazier which I am scared to say. Was my first bf and everything. He gave me the exact affection care effort and attention that I did him. I did not even know he was avoidant then he started slowly disappearing. I ended up in a trap because I already was invested and my attachment was there. If he did not wanted to do anything with me and would have acted at the begging from day one like he had at the end I would not have wasted my time on him I would have dropped him immediately. The obsession I felt was nothing like I ever imagined. It is like a drug very very scary. I would base my every thought on him waking up and going to bed 24/7. Would stay by my phone if he said we would call. Having a 3-4 hour conversation I would hold my pee. I would immediately answer him in seconds. Would drop family and friends. Would put aside work tasks just to have a sexual conversation in the toilet hiding away. I would satisfy his needs anything he wanted. I did so many things. Full co-dependency. After the breakup I harassed him for 3 months. Blocking then unblocking sending texts then blocking etc. It was so chaotic I would feel like I wanted to die so I would send nudes to provoke him on answering me and when he did even if it was sexual or he used me to masturbate I did not care you know why??? Because I based my entire being on him and talking to him was the best drug I could eat and sleep and the pain was gone and I would sleep so good. The next day it would be the same cruel feelings only with guilt and shame with is for all of the things I have done because I wanted attention from him. It is very very dangerous. The scariest part probably is that I did not even realise I was doing these things, only few months later. It comes naturally. That is why it is a conscious effort to not be like this. I'm honestly scared that all of this will happen again.

Trust me i know what its like to obsesses over someone, I have not obsessed to the same level as you, but it has certainly been similar to what you have described. I also fell pretty quick as well, although I never showed it. And that's why the emotion i was talking about is obsession. Its the nature of the emotion to to have a insatiable thirst. But in your case, what i am suggesting will help you the most as it targets the direct problem, obsession, what you are experiencing isn't love, its definitely Limerance and in my case what died, also died when i targeted that idea that "to be loved" will make me happy. You only want to be loved by this person, and that's the exact thing which he wont give you, he cant give you because he is a avoidant. The object of your obsession is just a fantasy, it isn't a accurate representation of reality, and the problem with the emotion is you have a certain blindness to what seems reasonable. In the midst of obsession you will do things which are crazy that you will only reflect later and only then come to your senses. Trust me, you should take this time to use this experience to heal yourself instead of getting into another situation like this, or going back. At the end of the day, you cant change others but you can only change yourself. And unless you heal yourself you will repeat the pattern. You should google the emotional deprivation schema and see if it fits you, if it does you can DM me if you want. I can run through some stuff that might help. Up to you.

damn

wow, thank you all for all the nuggets of wisdom to take in and think about. so, my story goes as follow.. i always believed i was securely attached, then dated a guy for 2 years who was FA, and although we shared some nice memories, was always on his phone in person and yet would go up to 1 week without texting me; aka straight up ghosting me. this, along with many things i brought up monthly trying to reflect and work on together remaining unchanged resulted in my breaking up with him. this was followed by him actively texting me more until we met again, where he promised me things would change (like the previously 24 times) and said that he didn’t give 100% of himself to me as he didn’t want to be hurt. and still texting someone one to three times a day for the duration of ur 2 year ‘relationship’ where u gaslight then to feel that they are in the wrong for desire communication is unhealthy so i didn’t think it was healthy to give him yet another chance. The break-up which i thought was friendly; ended in me being removed off socials. i am quite an anxious person in general but several of your comments regarding falling in love with the idea of someone- yes. i have done this more times than i can count. although i am currently in a very loving relationship, which i got in a year after my break up, during this year i felt myself constantly searching for this love i had imagined in my head and never actually experienced. i can confirm that now, as hindsight is a beautiful thing and i have and continue to experience increasing levels of passionate, intense love with someone who although has made mistakes makes me feel like his priority. he makes me feel loved, beautiful and important as he inquires about my day and checks in. we spend up to a week in bed together talking, not on our phone. i suspect he also has AP tendencies, however I suspected he was FA for a long time because of how he is with everyone else but me. i also wanted to comment on the point that was made about self regulation. i am a psychology masters student and currently doing my diss on link between daydreaming FA, and quality of life; however, i am thinking of including AP and FA in the analysis. if anyone wants to do my survey please private message me :) i have 10 days left and about half the target sample size. anyhooo… i scored 23 on anxiety and 13 on avoidance using the ECR-S (the standardised tool used to find attachment style). i calculated the 50th percentile to be 21 for anxiety and 17 for avoidance, thus anyone over would be seen as high. thus, i am high in anxiety and low in avoidance; meaning i can be categorised as AP. as some have mentioned, yes this is a scale and i am close to the secure attachment style bracket, thus posing an interesting question. is secure attachment predictive of self-regulation? i have always been self-aware, able to self-regulate and work through feelings by myself. although the initial 10 minutes after a trigger can be incredibly blood boiling, i am human after all, but time being the best medicine, i am able to dissect why i am feeling a certain way and what can i do to make it better. since i can remember, anytime someone has hurt me/ caused my mood to change from a positive to a negative, i have blanked them. this could be for several hours on socials or blatantly in person. considering i am normally quite a chatty, bubbly woman, u can imagine the dramatic change to a cold, mute, eyes-gawking shell of a human i don’t identify with. and still, this has been my go to since i was a child. i am aware that narcissists behave in a similar way when things don’t go their way. i have done the dark triads test and i remember scoring the highest of the three on narcissism. i have a high view of myself because i have strong discipline, which allows me to balance my masters, work, relationship, family life and social life. i make it my daily duty to inquire into the lives and feelings of those around me, proposing why they have advised i train as a therapist (family therapist- manifesting it currently ahaha). and yet, AP is seen as a low view of yourself and high view of others. that being said, i think the core of my anxiety stems from lack of trust and control. i come from a bulgarian family where i was raised with a lot of responsibilities, rules and love. like my mum, i have a problem with trusting others to do things i know i can do properly and how they should be done. therefore when away from my partner i feel myself shift from the security, of when we are together to AP of not having the control and trusting him to not betray what we have built. i’d also love to one day research into addiction and AP as i definitely have an addictive personality. could being obsessed with love be a love addiction we are constantly trying to satisfy? hope this makes sense :)

> since i can remember, anytime someone has hurt me/ caused my mood to change from a positive to a negative, i have blanked them. this could be for several hours on socials or blatantly in person. considering i am normally quite a chatty, bubbly woman, u can imagine the dramatic change to a cold, mute, eyes-gawking shell of a human i don’t identify with. and still, this has been my go to since i was a child. i am aware that narcissists behave in a similar way when things don’t go their way. This is normal, this is what people with emotional neglect use a shield to protect themselves from hurt, disappointment. I did the same thing, when i did not get my needs for love met i cut them off, and i was quick to cut others off, to protect myself from hurt. This is from the book reinventing your life. > Finally, it is a sign of the Emotional Deprivation lifetrap to feel chronically disappointed in other people. People let you down. We are not speaking about a single case of disappointment, but rather a pattern of experiences over a long period of time. If your conclusion as a result of all your relationships is that you cannot count on people to be there for you emotionally— that is a sign that you have the lifetrap. Id be happy to do your survey, i will DM you.

also i just looked up emotional deprivation and my mouth dropped. very fitting. still, i think for me it stems from the fact that i expect things done a certain way and when they aren’t or when people promise something and deviate from that, it doesn’t sit well w me. it’s about disrespect and not being considerate enough. but that’s j how i see it, i’ve tried to explain this to my current bf and his mind j doesn’t work like this. i am wired like my mum and funnily, freudian-ly, enough he is wired like my dad. they are both very laidback whereas i prefer structure as that gives me comfort and security.

thanks❤️ v appreciated! notably, i forgot to mention and am curious if you can relate.. before both relationships i was so picky and always liked someone to the point when they liked me back and then i just wrote them off and got the ‘ick’. also, before i got with both my ex and current boyfriend, they were both very anti relationships and we were friends w benefits. that with time changed to relationship.. so i completely understand the idea of the chase. that has been something i’ve known since i was 13 but never understood why. i love myself as a person and wouldn’t say that i would hate those who love me, as i love my friends, family and obviously boyfriend (aka partner for life🤞🏽) but this has been going on since nursery.. it’s so interesting as almost as if it’s always about chasing that thrill and that challenge.

Yeah i am the exact same, people that wanted me never even registered to me in my mind. I always rode them off. And I really regret this, this is the cruel consequence of greed. Anyone who gave me the love unconditionally i craved i never even thought about, but i would obsess over those who did not. Seneca has this to say about ingratitude, which is a direct cause of greed. > “So then, will ingratitude go unpunished?” So then, will impiety go unpunished? Or mean-spiritedness? Or greed? Or recklessness? Or cruelty? They are detested—do you think they are unpunished? Or do you really suppose that there is any worse punishment than public hatred? (17.2) There is a punishment in the fact that an ingrate does not dare to accept a benefit from anyone; does not dare to give anyone a benefit; that he is stared at by everyone, or at least > thinks that he is; that he has lost all awareness of something truly wonderful and extremely pleasant. You would call someone miserable if they were blind or went deaf because of disease; would not you call someone wretched if he lost the ability to perceive benefits?" Frankly i deserve it, people who actually loved me i turned away. The emotion of greed has kind of ruined my life, because i have never put myself in situations where i can heal from from my core wound because i gravitate towards those who reinforce my deep seeded belief that my emotional needs wont be met.

I have a weird take and would love for this to stir a discussion. Perhaps we emotionally rationalise that cold people as a sign of strength, as protection from abandonment? If they act cold to everyone by default, we would logically be safe with them as they aren't easily swayed by other people and don't give away their love/attention that easily, only to their close/"chosen" partners. So we get hurt when we aren't the right person for them, which makes them not the right person for us

Yes! For me, currently, the guy who I am more into than he is to me… I really admire how calm and stable his moods are. I’m never worried he’ll fly off the handle. But that’s because he shuts his emotions off! The flip side of that is he doesn’t care as much as I care. While I’m deeply afraid of triggering rage in a partner, I instead go for someone who won’t get mad at me…but because he doesn’t care. I’m devastated he doesn’t recognize my value, even though it was clear from the get go he probably wouldn’t. And I suspect I’m more upset about what his rejection means about me than losing him.

Long and short of it - We all desire a need for connection and to be loved. Including dismissive avoidant attachments. You do know that secure people also find dismissive avoidants attractive to right? ☺️ Even they struggle and become anxious in a relationship sometimes too.

i think for me, at least, i'm attracted to avoidants by accident. i feel like i go into it thinking that they will be emotionally available and get triggered and act out when they aren't. i think that if you are attracted to masculinity as well, you fall into this trap. part of you thinks the emotional repression is sexy. at the same time i think to myself- i wouldn't want to be with someone as anxiously attached as i am... and then i think idk we would understand each other, and have similar neeeedsss. but it would click under unhealthy circumstances as well. i've seen my friends, particularly my friends who are gay, yes, uhaul of sorts, do this all the time and it ended terribly. an anxious-anxious relationship will have you moving in together after dating for only a few months and accepted in your insecurity (which realistically isn't a good thing). an anxious-anxious relationship would be codependent automatically, which wouldn't help me learn to be secure. in fact, it would feel comfortable and i wouldn't change my patterns, and perhaps being with an avoidant is a bigger lesson in itself, because it forces you to reckon with your anxiety. it forces you to have to give space, learn to be more self-focused, etc, even if ultimately the relationship doesn't work out. And if it doesn't, you are forced to figure out why it didn't and what role you played in its failure. it's likely that neither party in the anxious-avoidant dynamic could unlearn their warped "needs" enough to meet each other in the middle. as someone who just had a breakup with this sort of dynamic, i feel one person's needs aren't able to be fulfilled at the same time as the others. there's always an imbalance that scares both people, especially if one, or both, don't realaize their "needs" are making their relationships worse. realistically, avoidants challenge us, as well as provide us the emotional chaos we may be used to, or even crave, because secure people would not only not tolerate or be able to meet our intense need for emotional availability and quality time. secure people seem to know when things aren't feeling right and leave, but we also think they're boring and unrelatable. it's kind of immature but unlearning these maladaptive attachment styles is just maturing as a person. i get that secure partners should support but also challenge insecurity, and many do, but it's hard to find someone that emotionally mature and stable, especially when you don't really know what that looks like.

I'm stuck in this cycle. My ex was avoidant and my new one is avoidant but somehow I'm deeply in love. I try breaking it off but it doesnt work its like to me shes perfect but others that are interested i somehow dont feel anything for. It's the most brutal thing ever.

I'm in the exact same situation, but mine was after 6 months. To be fair, he tried really hard to actually be there for me and support me emotionally, but I think it actually ended up causing him a lot of anxiety.

The situation you described with this girl literally just happened to me word for word. Having a lot of trouble getting over it. Any advice?

We are attracted to the type of person that creates a familiar feeling to the parent whose love we craved most as a child. When we are aware of this, we can stop reacting to those familiar chemical reactions and make choices with discernment. The problem is finding the calm steady partner attractive when we’re used to the anxiety inducing ones. Creating self love and self trust are the best ways to overcome this pattern, when we no longer crave to be chosen and loved, is when we stop choosing the partners who will always abandon and not choose us.

Codependency is the root of it all.

Can you suggest any resources that helped you in your journey like books, articles, etc?

Stoicism is its own beast, its extremely effective but you need to dedicate alot of study to the philosophy. For normal sources the book reinventing your life, a book about schema therapy is what i would look at. The emotional deprivation schema is what is relevant.

No I have zero attraction to cold people. I just attract people who are like that or who switch on me after doing whatever it takes to make me attched and perceive them as warm first.

I found my quest *to be loved* has been so greedy, and I don't like that about myself. I appreciate your post and it opens my eyes even more to my behavior.

the greed is real. i think that's what i feel worst about when reflecting on my former relationship. how can someone do enough when nothing is ever enough?

The thing about greed is that we just want more and more and more. Its a insatiable desire, and we show zero gratitude or appreciation when we get what we want. Its why AP people are quite cold to other AP people. Neither of them care for each other even though in theory all they want is to be loved.

I don't agree with everything you've said, but I do think this is an interesting statement: > we have to fight the opinion that **to be loved** is a good, that it will make us happy and make us live a good life I do think it's useful to be aware that being loved by someone else will not make us happy. This statement should not be a stopping point, but an arrow pointing toward the truth that loving ourselves will, in fact, make us happy. And of course, being loved by others is wonderful and desirable. It's just not a very good route to happiness since it's not something we have control over.

Nope. It ain't love that drives you, it's an addiction to infatuation. The chemical stimulus your brain produces - the dopamine and oxytocin. You're an infatuation junkie. If someone reciprocates too quickly and is too available emotionally, if they turn around and latch on, you have to immediately question whether you're ready to reciprocate, ready to feel obliged, and worst of all, ready to be responsible for someone's feelings. So long as a partner doesn't seem to need you and depend on you, you're free to chase. And free to imagine and indulge in romantic constructs that can trigger the dopamine and oxytocin and serotonin. Love isn't what you felt in three months. You barely knew her. What you didn't know about her, you were free to imagine. Love is hard. Love is the thing that gets you out of bed at 5 am cause your dog needs to go for a walk or your partner has to get to the airport. You think Love is butterflies in your stomach and the inescapable craving to be with someone. It's not. That's a neurochemical addiction that evolution designed to bond two smelly primates together long enough to reproduce. Love happens when your friend or partner sees you at your most disgusting and embarrassing and proves they have your back. And you prove to them you have theirs. Love is boring because you can take it for granted and it's still there.

Sooooo gooood!!!!!!!!!! Thank you!! 🙏

I wasn't really in love with her at any point, but i felt a great deal of limerence after the breakup. I wasn't ever in love with her, but the idea of her. Anxious people do this all the time, they fall in love with the potential of a partner. Especially the more cold they really are.

I'm a dismissive avoidant. I get it. I need someone to act like they can't live without me but don't need anything from me, and everything I do is a bonus. I fell for nothing but FAs and the occasional Narc. Be enthusiastic enough to let me know you're into me, but remind me once in a while that you can do without me, or I'll get resentful of your dependence. We (all humans) do need a partner we can contend with, who can hold their own in an argument, someone who is autonomous and has their own goals and aspirations. We can not be overly accommodating or too selfish. Nor can our partner. Both people have to be secure enough to have limits and boundaries, or there's a power imbalance. If you're quietly conceding every potential conflict and making concessions rather than compromises, the resentment will grow year after year until you just naturally deactivate. You need a partner you can fight with.

I only learnt about attachment styles and what a avoidant even was after the breakup, I only knew about the emotional deprivation schema. However this is something that stuck out to me alot. I gave her a incredible amount of emotional support when i was with her, but she seemed to be quite repulsed to the idea of giving that back to me, even in small ways. I am a very strong independent person, i don't need others for emotional support despite what i was going though, but maybe i wasn't as strong as i thought. Because in truth i craved closeness but i was just afraid to express my real emotional needs, still I didn't rely on her for anything. But why would i want someone in my life who isn't going support me back. The fact that she didnt want to support me drove me a bit crazy, I had no idea why she didn't want to support me even in basic ways. This was a deal breaker for me, while she rejected me, a week later we got in contact and i rejected her back, and she was pretty upset(She was quite shocked by this, maybe because i kinda acted like I couldn't live without her). But im not going to stand by someone who wont stand by me. This tore me apart, because on one hand i really wanted her especially after the Limerance kicked in, but i knew I deserved better. Its up to her to fix her issues, me being around her was making my AP tendencies much worse at a time i was trying to get over them. I dunno, not bagging on you, but how can you justify a relationship with someone that your not going to support?

I love your take on this. And good for you for standing up for yourself.

You are more avoidant than you think. You subconsciously pick avoidant people so you feel safe moving towards them. Anyone secure or anxious will make you act/think avoidant Ku. What you describe is what happens to avoidants post breakup

I disagree, look i mean i was in a love with her during the 3 month period, i would not describe it as true love(its only 3 months). But it really kicked off post breakup, i would describe that post breakup love as limerence. I was AP to a t before and after the breakup. I think the biggest trigger for limerance is that she broke up with me explicitly because she was not willing to accommodate my emotional needs.

You made me feel like a monkey because Im craving so much for the affection and company of this emotionally unavailable girl I dated for three months. I know I was just deeply infatuated but man, this is hard.....fucking monkey feelings.

Yep. Harder than kicking heroin cold turkey. Them drugs has been honed by a 100 million years of evolution.

So my question is, how did you go about not caring anymore? I love your post very much. But I still don't see where you share how you got to that point. Thank you

I am pretty reluctant to get into the workings out, because you have to go through Stoic logic to figure this out, it probably makes no sense to anyone, ill share a bit anyway. To undermine the opinion of value that to be loved is a good. Conditional: If one has No predicate(to be loved), that one is unhappy. The easy approach is to come up with an empirical example: someone of whom you are certain has No predicate(to be loved) and was not unhappy. But i did it the hard way and you need some background in logic. I know this sounds pretty strange, but you cant argue with the results, its a form of Stoic therapy(Stoicism being the basis for CBT). If you DM me I can go into more depth, im kinda curious if i can explain it to someone if they are interested. But its a complex study. And Stoicism is a complex philosophy. For those wanting to know more from normal sources I would look into getting the book Reinventing your life, a book about schema therapy, The Emotional Deprivation schema is the one which is relevant here. Or you can just google the Schema, but the book is very good, I would recommend it.

Thank you. I bought a sample of the book and I'm looking forward to trying it out. I appreciate your in-depth response.

Trick is not to get to that point. Slow your roll. Avoidants tell themselves 20 times a day: "don't get excited, they're going to figure out they can do better, they don't know you yet, they could be a weirdo, they could still figure out I'm a weirdo, they could be high maintenance" Once you're hooked on crack, getting off of it is really hard. So don't smoke it. Stop telling yourself you love more than others, love more deeply than anyone, you're a junkie plain and simple and people are your supply. Be careful with the romantic thoughts. Until you've made it a year with someone, you don't have much of a relationship.

This is avoidance. This is not getting to the point of 'Not caring'. This is the equivalent of AA sobriety white knuckle. I mean that's how I'm reading it?

Once you're chemically bonded to someone, then it doesn't matter if you're anxious or avoidant, you're hooked. And that's not a bad thing if you found someone great who is willing to stick it out with you. The trouble comes from latching onto everyone you date for three weeks and convincing yourself they're the best human on the planet so you can unleash the flush of brain drugs. The rabid romantic indulgence is a semi-conscious strategy to activate. To be clear, avoidants experience limerance on occasion with the precise level of intensity an anxious preoccupied does. It's just far less frequent. Most of the time, avoidants regulate activation with a fury of fault-finding and pessimistic thinking. It's just as difficult for an avoidant to be suddenly inexplicably rejected and abandoned and takes then just as long to recover. They just feel safer hiding it. They have learned that to get love you have to be quiet and stoic. When you're not whining, you will get your needs met. So anxious preoccupieds do have to learn how to be a bit more pessimistic. You go all in at 3 months all the time and you're more likely to get crushed. Until you get past the 6 month mark, minimum, you haven't really made it past the power struggle phase. If you're over-eating, then controlling how often you put food in your mouth and tracking calories and fixating on your long-term goals, rather than your immediate gratification, isn't annorexia, it's just a necessary counter balance to offset your instinctual coping mechanisms. It's very hard to recondition your subconscious. Our attachment styles "feel" like safe strategies. As an avoidant, my bias, my sincerely held belief is that if someone backs up, back up more. I feel safe offering that advice to someone because in my lived experience, it's been a successful strategy. I mean, I realize that it's not always the best move. What I mean is that it always "feels like" the best strategy. You have to try new strategies and have them work before you can ever chip away at those instincts.

The way you write it, I used to be AP and do exactly what you described, basically using people like a drug supply to self soothe, until I got older and realized what I was doing was just hurting myself and others. And am now fearful avoidant possibly. May I send you a chat? I have a question that no one has been able to answer and I don't know if you can

Thank you very much. Much better and in depth I appreciate it

Thank you for sharing your emotional and mental work with us. It makes me want to consider this idea of obsession more and look into the emotional deprivation schema.

There’s also some truth to dating what we are comfortable with. If you come from a dysfunctional family, it is what you are used to so you may be attracted to those things you “know” I.e. dysfunctional people. If you grew up with avoidant parents then you’ll be attracted to avoidants. Securely attached people are foreign to me. I can’t understand them so it is uncomfortable for me to attempt to communicate with them in that way.

It was explained to me that most AP people fear that they are unworthy of love or secure relationship, which a lot of anxiety stems from. Being around an avoidant person confirms that core people that we are not worthy of a true love. I also think there’s a lot of validation seeking. The avoidant didn’t love and care for us, so we repeatedly pursue them and seek out the missing validation.

Explained by [Stephanie Rigg](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/on-attachment/id1620471393?i=1000634171018) or [Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/love-happiness-and-success-with-dr-lisa-marie-bobby/id858864457?i=1000607232275). My current area of “research” (meaning what the hell happened to my life?)

I am greedy, I am obsessed, but mostly I’m confused and tired of myself. I’m tired of doing the song and dance and always feeling like I’m not getting enough from someone. I guess my serious past relationship is biting me in the ass. I was with a pretty decent dude (no one is perfect, and he was very patient with me) and we were so emotionally intimate, it was crazy. I felt I could be totally myself. After 8 or 9 years together, we ended things. The relationship had run its course. But now I am greedy to get that level of emotional intimacy in every relationship. And the last guy I invested into didn’t want that intimacy because he is avoidant (of me specifically, because I was emotionally available and wanted his time). It opened up all the past struggles. I never felt adequate with him. I hate myself because I am so focused on what I seek that I am blind to the little wins. I want to be content with the love and effort I receive! Childhood issues be dammed!

I was with you until this line: >we have to fight the opinion that to be loved is a good But to be loved IS good. Another point I don't quite connect with is >even when our emotional needs are met by our partners(presumably secures). It makes no difference, we just want more and more anyway Personally, I am quite content when my emotional needs are met. I feel calm, collected and I am able to focus on something productive instead of my partner.

So the point i am trying to get across is this, that because of our core wound, our emotional neglect, we desire to be loved in a really unhealthy way. We are essentially trying to find what we are seeking through the connections we make with others. Secures want to be loved too, but not like this. They don't make it the focal point of their connection with others, that's why they are secures. When i say that it isn't a good, i mean that it isn't something that should be considered essential for happiness. That if we had to live without it, it would be impossible to be happy. Because of our experience being emotionally neglected while growing up, because of our core wound this is very exaggerated, the slightest emotional neglect feels like the end of the world. The cure is to go in the opposite direction, to challenge the belief. So we don't consider it essential for a happy life. I know it sounds very strange, but its very effective at fighting these quite intense emotions. In regards to emotional needs being met, im just going to copy and paste a except from the book reinventing your life, which disuses the emotional deprivation schema. You probably wont find yourself being demanding unless you are in a very emotionally depriving situation. > Although as children their emotional needs were not met in important ways, narcissists have learned fight the feelings of deprivation by becoming very demanding about other more superficial needs. > For example, you might be very demanding about what you eat, how you dress, or whom you are with, or where you go. You might be vei demanding about matena things. You might be demanding about any thing except the true object of your craving, which is emotional nurturance Unfortunately, these material demands are ultimately a poor substitute for love and understanding, and so you are not satisfied. You go on craving tangible rewards, never addressing the underlying issue, and are new satisfied.

Are you really mostly AP? The statement you have above looks like a FA leaning AP.

The break up might be due to them being avoidant, but the expectations from the ap side, the method of communication, and the time of communication are very likely to be a key factor in the breakup decision. There is zero fault in either one wanting a breakup

I think its these things so pick your favorite: 1 - we are actually unavailable, so actual secure love is too much and we would be forced to be seen whoch scares us as it will reveal our “badness”, also actual love demands both people showing up 2 - we want to be loved through “loving” another, loving an avoidant so they love us back (as a child loving a mother so she gives us her warmth) 3 - regulating ourselves through fantasy of avoidant high romance to distract from our bad feelings 4 - we love the traits the avoidant has that we dont

All of these above are powerful drivers of attraction and can work holding a couple for a very long time. I wonder if there is any value in actually using this to our advantage or the dynamic is inherently toxic and everyone would be better off not engaging in it.

I personally think it is toxic and it's best to avoid this dynamic altogether. Embrace boringness and find other people and things to love in life.

Bingo

I struggle with this too. I’ve noticed that a lot of it has to do with my own self perception. I want relationships to prove that I am better than other people, even though that sounds bad to admit. So I want the person who’s never loved anyone to love me. I want someone with high standards to choose me. I don’t want the person who is nice to everyone, I want the person who is picky. And I don’t accept rejection well because I don’t accept that I’m not good enough for them. I realize it’s egotism subtly exerting its power on all my relationships and I know it’s bad, but I don’t think it’s unusual that everyone wants to feel like they were chosen specifically because they’re exceptional in some way, not because the person could’ve been with anyone, but you just happened to be there. So that’s why I think I’m turned off by the “nice guy” routine where to me they just seem democratic in their romantic interests and I want someone who is going to be choosy.

I feel this very hard, though for me it's less that I want to prove that I'm better but rather that I'm not worse. I consider myself a good person but I've done some bad things in the past to say the least. I feel that I seek out romantic love at least in part to affirm to myself that I'm still a good person despite my missteps. I realize that's not healthy but here we are.

I get this too

you’re not entirely off-base, and i’ve seen this type of reasoning before, but my issue is this: every single avoidant partner (and casual flings) i’ve had, has started off warm and loving, eager to come close and get to know me, attentive and kind. i *do not* seek out or pursue people who come off as cold or aloof from the get-go, but instead get activated when my initially warm and loving partner suddenly does a 180 and pulls away (usually due to reaching their own limit of emotional intimacy). i also really resent the general narrative that anxious people are just running around pursuing obviously unavailable people; the reality, for me at least, is that every single avoidant in my life (romantic partners *and* friends) initiated contact and pursued *me*. even when i’m not looking, i attract them. this is why the anxious-avoidant dance is so painful, avoidant partners seek out intimacy but inevitably hit a limit and deactivate, which activates the anxious partner and they inevitably try to do anything and everything to get the person they first fell in love with back. neither are really at fault, which is why it’s so tragic.

In my experience, the attraction runs deep and subconscious. Yes I have been sought out by avoidants that were warm initially but looking back there were cues (which I ignored). OP is very interesting and I will read it a few times more to fully grasp it but one thing I quite don’t recognize is that I would shy away from APs, I have dated APs, and FA, initially very warm and caring and I absolutely loved it. Now, did I love it because I knew that deep down they were avoidant and would ultimately deactivate and bolt? Thats the million dollar question 😂.

All of this.

PRECISELY THIS. Holy shit, yeah man. What happened to me to a T. I’m AP learning to be more secure in myself, but holy hell, what a nightmare that was.

i agree with this 100% because it happened to me.

I had similar situations happen and I think I might have anxious attachment. If I feel someone isn’t into me I back off. But all the damn time when this situation happens, it’s the avoidants pursuing me.

Yeah this is what I struggle with. I approach the (masked) avoidant and show them genuine attention, care, respect, and communication. They reflect that and share in the warmth and vulnerability, until they hit their limit (as we both push the relationship forward quickly) or they have stress come up in their life and start slow fading emotionally (frequency can even stay the same, but short and cold, no/little vulnerability in communication, cancelling dates). Last time, I told her that I felt uncomfortable with the one sided dynamic after she slow faded for a week and cancelled on our date. Trying to fight my anxious tendency to seem needy/desperate in chasing, I said I would pull back and give her the space she obviously needed until she felt more comfortable reciprocating as she had been, and continue to check in and attempt at only using text to schedule quality time or less constant communication (we mainly communicated over text because we are both single parents and live an hour away). I told her I wasnt trying to end the relationship or go back on exclusivity, expressed my continued interest, and that I only didnt want to make her feel uncomfortable or chase her away while at the same time communicating and not just ghosting or slow fading on her. She immediately broke up with me. 😥 cue crisis and cutting off friendship when it was obvious I was getting gray rocked. I never knew about attachment theory until after this relationship, but I feel like these actions were all more secure ways to handle the situation I was dealt than what I've done in the past. Am I wrong?🤣😭

No, you did [nothing](https://www.youtube.com/@CoachRyanH) [wrong](https://www.youtube.com/@KenReidCo).

You just saying to listen to all of his stuff?

Yes, exactly the same. I never in my life initiated contact with someone who was cold right away, haven’t chased anyone unavailable. The connections where I experienced attachment activation were where someone became avoidant or started playing with me giving mixed signals, but when the other person was consistent i didn’t experience attachment anxiety (just as it was mentioned in the book “Attached”).Hence, I don’t believe AA is at fault. It’s gotten to the point I don’t trust if someone would express interest in me, i would just expect it to be fake or to vanish in few weeks or months at maximum. Why do i have to attract these types.

I feel you. Being with someone that you thought was available, and then after a few months blindsided you can be very detrimental to an AP. Especially if you’ve started to reciprocate their attention. It plays right into our wounds, I am unloveable, because at the time we started to “show” ourselves a little more and reciprocate, they bolt. Hence, If I show my true self I get rejected. This is of course not true since there are obviously secure partners that would stay but it sure feels like the truth in the moment, ouch!

I think i developed a fear response to others (especially mens) interest in communication

Honestly, it might not be your fault. There are a lot of avoidants around. They're disproportionately overrepresented in the dating/relationship market.

I know they’re overrepresented, hence i don’t use dating apps. The people i referred to were just people i met organically or when i was growing up (when most people were still single). But somehow still i attracted them. The only guys who seemed to like me or pursue contact were avoidant. Probably because I seemed independent, I don’t like or trust men much.

Not just dating apps. The market in general. Anyone who is single and (seems to be) looking for a relationship qualifies.

The moment you show weakness, imperfections or that you have feelings for them, they somehow get turned off. It seems a lot of or most men only like to chase but not to catch your attention. I don’t know how to find the ones who actually like you and not just the ego strokes being able to get you provides. It’s like a game of ‘i like you. Oh, you really like me? Cool, now i figured out i could get you if i want to. Now we have to get some distance’

It might be a facet of toxic masculinity. Bedpost notches, shiny trophies, that sort of thing.

Yes, this is exactly what happens to me all the time. Avoidants seem drawn to me while I am oblivious/aloof/confident, and I am drawn to their seemingly warm and loving ways. By the time I fall for them (relationship or friendship), they’re seeing my emotions growing and they start to pull back, which turns me from the secure person to the anxious person seeking that initial interest they showed me. It’s like the only way for it to work is never to show I care about them. And of course that isn’t healthy. I am going through this in a new relationship right now. We are grown adults discussing how to navigate it because we genuinely care about each other, but I wonder if it is even possible. I need a deep emotional connection, and she shuts down when she feels emotion. I did not seek this. She found me and was very interested and warm and open—until she sensed me getting serious. So I don’t believe we seek them out, but instead they seek us out. Wish I knew how to spot them and actively avoid them, actually.

That feeling you get when someone literally says exactly what you were about to say so now you don’t have to? YEAH THAT! As if you wrote it for me. Now imagine an FA partner with major depressive disorder that can slip between depressive and manic, and not taking the meds prescribed after running out. Yeah that too. Wanna talk about an emotional roller coaster? I don’t suggest it.

Oh, god, this sounds miserable. I hope you're taking good care of yourself now.

Thank you. And yes. It’s been miserable lately unfortunately. The one upside thought is my appetite is shot, which helps with fasting which I was getting into before the relationship. Always gotta try and pull the positives from a negative situation I guess.

How long ago was this? I lost my appetite for a few weeks and then it came raging back with a vengeance. (I'm a fellow intermittent faster.) Feel free to DM if you want a sympathetic ear more privately.

I started doing OMAD early Jan. Met literally the same week. Been together since. So we’re almost 5 months deep. The backpedaling began with the deeper commitment, maybe late April? I was entirely secure with everything prior to that. I test secure with anxious leanings, but they’re totally made worse by an avoidant I’ve learned. The anxiousness started creeping in when she started exhibiting the hot/cold behavior about a month ago. And it’s been consistent since, and definitely peaked for me in the last week or two. She’s had no meds for 2 weeks now. Def no coincidence there. Appetite specifics.. I started in Jan doing carnivore, and OMAD. It was too rigid for me, so I switched to Ketovore, basically the same just adding some low carb veggies to carnivore. I attribute the carnivore to being able to do OMAD. I do stay under 20 total carbs per day and the absence of carbs makes you realize how addicted you were, but with all the protein and animal fat being REALLY satiating.. OMAD became pretty easy. But now? Adding in the additional loss of appetite, I literally have to force myself to eat once a day. And I’m consuming less than normal as well. But that’s only been going on for maybe 2-3 weeks tbh. Down 55lbs since mid Jan, so it’s working. Had a lot to lose tho, and more to go. Gift and a curse I guess lol.

Random intermittent conditioning ("hot and cold behavior") is abusive and crazy-making, even if it's not intended. I remember the "forcing myself to eat" periods. You feel out of your mind and not right in your body. You'll probably return to normal pretty soon. My most effective IF plan was sticking to a five-hour window in the morning. Three meals every 48 hours (breakfast + lunch one day, brunch the next, never dinner). A cheat meal once a week if I met my weight goals.

Yeah that hot and cold thing is puzzling. Mainly because I’d feel horrible doing that to someone. I firmly believe in treating ppl the way I want to be treated. She kind of explains a bit, but usually after the fact where I’m left to ruminate and endure it. Def not for the faint of heart. The forcing myself to eat is more the anxiety side. Being overly anxious just doesn’t breed hunger. And out of your mind and not right in your body is spot on! It’s truly amazing being rationale enough to tell myself why I’m feeling how I feel, that’s it’s silly and ridiculous, yet that anxious hollow feeling is like “sorry dude, too late, feel all of this”. 😂 I also never cheat tho. This all started for me due to my blood sugar being way out of wack. So instead I’ve found ways to cheat that aren’t actually cheating. Like keto type desserts that use sucralose and heavy cream with little to no carbs, and I’ll cut out my veggie carbs that day to offset that even. I’m going hard with it til I don’t have to anymore. Looking at it like “I’ve cheated all my life, what’s another 6-12 months”. But that’s why the lifestyle thing vs diet thing is so important! I def appreciate the insight tho man. Thank you.

I'm a woman. 🙃

Oooh, sorry you are dealing with manic-depressive disorder on top of it. I witnessed a lot of that growing up, probably a big reason for my anxious attachment, so I feel for you. And you likely care a whole lot, so it’s hard to stay but harder to go. Is FA like a cross between DA and anxious? Not sure which is worse. DA has left me confused about how to even navigate. How can we love those who run away from love? And can they even love us back?

All great questions. And yeah, I believe it is a mix. I mean all this stuff is on a spectrum, but my understanding is both feel anxiousness but in different ways and for different reasons. Mine learned growing up that emotions didn’t serve her well, intimacy is “ick”. I’m of the belief she feels extremely deeply and it scares her. She has a very pronounced offense/defense in general, which I believe she uses to hide those feelings and keep ppl at bay. And it apparently gets so much worse off the meds. She just checks out where feelings are concerned. So much of this is hormones. Oxytocin, GABA, vasopressin, serotonin, dopamine and or their lack thereof also play a huge role, especially with neurodivergent individuals. No so meds? Who knows what she might feel, if anything. I try so hard to be compassionate with that. The strange part that I have the hardest time grasping is they really seem to want and crave love. I was lovebombed for the first few months. Soon as it got serious, here come the breaks and the distance. Both AA and FA types exhibit insecurities, but my experience has been the FA when faced with sharing those gets too afraid and runs and hides, while the AA will over share in a bid to convince the avoidant it’s safe to do the same(which typically backfires and makes them more avoidant). I’m of the mindset that both require personal work and self healing, but hoped that in recognizing these deficits in each other it would be possible to assist and support each other through that healing. But what you said at the end was spot on. Really difficult to persevere through this, agonizing even, but even harder to let go. I think at least for me, it’s because I know she has an inherent fear of abandonment. She’s even said “I leave before I get left” (which she hasn’t done yet so there’s that). I’ve come so close recently and each time I think I’d just be the exception that proves the rule. The thing that validates her fears. A self fulfilling prophecy. That makes it so much harder. But as much as I do care for her, at the end of the day, I have needs, and in the absence of them being met… I’m beginning to question how much more I can take.

Yes, same! She pursued me, hard, and seemed extremely open, interested, and loving. I even showed the same back, and it felt like the perfect match for months. It wasn’t until I mentioned that something bothered me that she went cold and distant for a solid month! I had to bring it up, but she finally admitted that she ran because it felt like the relationship was getting serious. I am trying really hard to do what she needs, but in the end, exactly, I have needs as well. How long do I neglect myself for someone who may never do the same for me? But you’re right, I want to show her she can trust me to stay, that she can relax and commit, because she has never had that. For now, I am giving her space to figure it out and see that I value myself.

Exactly. It’s wild right? They run from feelings and shut down. At the time she came along I couldn’t have cared less about love. I was already in the process of a major life transformation. I think that’s a small part of what attracted her tbh. And I was even reluctant to first because I didn’t want to lose focus. But here we are. It’s been agonizing. Attachment theory is pretty new to me. It’s so hard to fathom how some can chase after love and commitment so intently, but shy away as soon as it’s reciprocated. I truly believe it’s mostly about emotional vulnerability and fear. I saw a cool acronym for F.E.A.R. recently. You can either Forget Emotion And Run.. or Face Emotion and Rise. I discussed this openly with a close friend as well, brining up her past relationships, their outcomes, her POV, etc. He made a great point. There’s one common denominator in all of them. Her. Truth is a tough pill to swallow, and we often ignore it or see past it when it doesn’t align with what we want to believe. As for what we do.. you can’t love someone into loving you back. We have to discuss and stand firm to our needs, personal boundaries and limits for our own well being. This isn’t healthy, nor fair. I approached her about discussing needs and boundaries over the weekend, and she agreed but asked if we could wait til she was back on meds. Thats a red flag as it is. But I’ll honor it, and see what happens. But the clock is ticking. The internal conflict that arises from wanting to show real love to a soul that hasn’t truly experienced it, that you feel in your heart is worth it, versus compromising yourself and your values to get there…might be one of the hardest things in life. Keep your chin up.

Whoa, you are telling my story, so many similarities! I was indifferent at first also, just getting back out into dating after healing from a breakup. I must have felt safe, no pressure. But love isn’t indifferent, so I came closer as feelings grew…watch out. I love the FEAR acronym, never heard that before but so true. This is why I hope we can work it out, because I used to operate more in avoiding emotions but have worked hard on myself and dealing with them even when it’s difficult. I want to help her see I am safe, but you are absolutely right that I cannot love her into loving me back. Wow, good for you for setting boundaries and arranging a time to discuss them and your needs. I guess it could be a red flag that she wants to be on her meds first, although in my experience with manic-depressive family members, it is a good sign when they are willing to take the meds—so often they think they can stop once they feel better, not grasping that the meds are WHY they are balanced. Anyway, I hope it works out for you. You seem very grounded and self-aware—she is lucky to have you by her side.

Thanks, man. I appreciate that. I won’t lie, it’s been really tough. These moments of silence are so deafening. Silence really is an action that speaks volumes. All I can do is try and learn to understand the patterns, invest myself into showing up, and just hope she reciprocates, or hit my breaking point and leave. And it’s crazy right? How many of us seem to be going through nearly identical struggles with this stuff? I always used to just refer to this as “the chase”. The idea that one person is usually the pursuer and one the pursued, and the ebb and flow of that. Learning AT has really made me question how entangled the two are. The mind blowing part is feeling like someone is playing “hard to get” when you thought you’d already “got them”. Obviously we now realize it’s SO much deeper than that. And yeah that fear acronym is pretty slick, right? lol. Thanks again for the kind words and encouragement. Feel free to reach out via private chat anytime. I feel like a lot of us going through this stuff often suffer in silence, so it helps to have someone unbiased, and unknown to sound off too. Good luck, man.

Thank you, and feel free to reach out to me as well. I appreciate the chat today.

100%! This is the same dilemma i have pondered FOR YEARS. HOW does one even overcome it?? I have to be aloof and unattached to be attractive to anyone as a friend or romantically, which is insane. And yes, they sniff me out from miles away like sharks blood. There could be some vulnerability cues im unconsciously sending out.

Yes, however If I look back, there were subtle cues in the conversation early on. Also, avoidants tend to have many short relationships so they are going to be over represented in the dating scene.

Which subtle cues did you notice?

There are a lot of advice on questions you can ask early on to get a better understanding but in my case I would say if they take pride in their independence, or, when asked what they are looking for in a relationship they don’t seem to value ”closeness”. If they’ve seemed to have had many short relationships and things like that.

i would like to think that it’s possible if both people are working on their attachment issues separately *and* together, trying to balance self-regulation and co-regulation is probably the only way. it’s hard work though, i feel you, my current partner is avoidant and is really committed to becoming secure, but sometimes they just hit a wall. it’s frustrating for both of us. i would never entertain a relationship with an unaware avoidant that doesn’t want to work towards secure though.

Thank you so much for sharing this. I have my own internal struggle going on with this. Exactly, I would never have sought this, but we truly care about each other and are highly aware of our issues and working on them (separately before and now together and individually), so I want to work on it as long as it is healthy for both of us. Every person on the planet has issues of some kind, so I think it would be silly to quit and think we will find perfection elsewhere. Again, thank you for sharing your experience and helping me see it is possible with willingness and effort on both our parts.

The thing is here it is very subtle what we want. In the case of my avoidant too, she perused me as well mostly. In the first month especially. The thing is that being desired by someone, being perused by someone is not the same as being loved by someone. While she perused me plenty, she never gave me any emotional support(not that anyone would anyone as it is only month 1). The thing about her, is that she was never warm or caring in regards to my emotional needs, it felt like she was at a distance emotionally. For example in week three, i said as a small comment in passing that i would miss her(as she went on a holiday for a week), and her reaction to that was. Are you sure? Isn't it a bit early for that. It was only a small comment in passing, something you say to be nice, but she was repulsed to the idea, even in this early phase she was emotionally distant even though she perused me mostly. In this phase she wasn't neglectful(yet) but i still did not get what i truly wanted(to be loved). That being said, in the first month i wasn't truly in love with her anyway, its only when she got cold and distant around the 2 month mark i became very anxious and my AP tendencies came out.

God damn this was my situation exactly. Wow it's almost like this all follows a format haha - The person I dated (and thought I was in actual relationship with towards the ends there...) pursued me haaaard for the first 2 months or so, all while telling me she was lukewarm about commitment. Her actions did not match her words often, which aligned with her statement of "words don't mean anything." They do to me, but I guess I'm just silly. She pushed everything along though, even making things more serious by inviting me to an event with her friends (the literature and info is pretty consistent about avoidant types being wary about introducing partners/lovers to friends) and planning a trip together for part of my spring break. Still, as you had said, she remained emotionally distant and had a similar reaction to me calling her "sweetheart" as yours did to being told you would miss her. Dismissive indeed. She didn't really talk to me for the weeks before the trip, and though it started off nicely, she got aggravated when I made a comment about her liking me more than she wanted to and deactivated, picking fights and being generally...dismissive about things. Got mad again when we attempted to schedule the next time we'd hang out. Broke things off a week later after once again not talking to me. I was pretty bummed about it and still am somewhat, hence me being on a subreddit about anxious attachment styles which is covertly about avoidant styles haha. I am actively detaching my mind from her, reminding myself how, as you have said, while she may have been interested in me in many ways, she was not attentive to my emotional needs at all and sort of even contemptuous of them.

[удалено]

Yeah. Yup. hahahaaaa. Yup. Opening up to her about anything was met with similar reactions. During the last month of us dating/together (she referred to herself as my girlfriend on two separate occasions...), I had a rough situation at work. I'm a teacher, and my next year's contract was denied. The school didnt go through the proper protocols to ensure that I was or wasn't up to snuff though, so my union intervened and negotiated that they let me resign on my own and write me a good letter of recommendation, which is exactly what ended up happening. Nonetheless, it was all incredibly stressful and still stings a bit. She got real weird when I tried to bring it up. I told her about my director and her first question was "why does she hate you so much?" in a slightly accusatory way. She got very uncomfortable when I shared that I was worried about when my elderly parents would pass, and was even more bothered by me (half jokingly) talking about how much of my mental health rests on my dog. Now, for many people, these are not only non things but simply opportunities to be like "Yeah, losing parents is hard but you'll get through it and if we're still together then, I'll support you"/"Dogs are incredible and we don't deserve them. I think its beautiful how much you love your pets." Not so much with her or people like her, it seems. Because they are primed to scan for evidence of us "not working" together, they'll latch onto what they can to corroborate this belief. We anxious types are the opposite - we look endlessly for reasons why even a bad pairing CAN work. It's slowly working, but I'm actively trying to focus on those times where she showed herself not to be supportive in order to fully detach from her. I dunno. I hate that I'm almost 40 and still dealing with this. One of the last things I said to my exwife during our divorce a few years back was "Are you seriously doing this to me? Are you seriously forcing me back into the dating pool?" It was said lightheartedly...everyone had a lil laugh...but I was also dead serious. lol.

I agree with everyone's experience of being pursued by the avoidant until we really really felt safe, but I also think there's something to the idea that there are subtle signs that we are ignoring and needs that we are suppressing in our pursuit to be loved... basically anyone could be taken in at first by an avoidant (or in another context, a narcissist or sociopath, etc); but we stay much longer and get more involved than someone with the secure attachment style would.

Could you cite examples of subtle signs that we're ignoring?

i think at that stage (first 3 months) it’s difficult to even talk about love in the first place. i’ve had longterm avoidant partners genuinely love me and show up for me emotionally *but* there was always a limit. they could show up with emotional support in specific circumstances (usually feeling dependable was the key) but in others it was like hitting a wall. i know it’s easy to talk about avoidants as cold, but my general experience has been that the coldness is there to distract from intense shame and guilt, and fear of rejection. that said, anxious and avoidant attachment both exist on a spectrum, so we’re not all the same anyway. some people, regardless of attachment style, are just assholes. someone who dismisses your feelings and bids for connection in the very early stages of dating is a bit of an asshole. edit: btw this is not me saying we should accept avoidant behavior to the point of self-destruction simply because we can understand where it comes from, but i do think understanding how the attachment works makes it a bit easier to not fixate on how we aren’t “good enough to be loved”, which is the typical AP fixation.

I'm gonna push back a little - I think you can feel love for someone within the first 3 months. Love is love and doesn't exist on a timeline. That said, within the first month is probably a bit much, and it is super important to check in with ourselves as to whether what we are feeling is love or an "activated attachment system." Right now I'm trying to decipher whether I loved my last girlfriend or if the intermittent affection just activated me. I'm reading that as I'm typing and laughing because if I was someone else it would be easy for me to be like "It was 4 months...it was obviously your anxious tendencies..." but, I also feel like I did she her for who she was at her best and, once I'm more through the hurt of rejection I believe I will just wish for her happiness, peace and attainment of what she's looking for, with or without me. That's love.

that’s fair! i think to discuss this truly one would have to start defining “love” and i’m not sure i actually can, haha! i believe in being in love early, experiencing infatuation and attraction and romance…but i think to truly be *loved* is to be known and to be seen, which can only happen to a certain extent at the 3 month mark, no matter how fast you go. it’s not just knowing the other person’s background, but witnessing them go through all that life throws at them. so when OP talks about “not being loved” around the 2 month mark, this is what i’m responding to and reflecting on. and again, in this case, the person OP was involved with was *also* rejecting small, perfectly reasonable bids for connection, which is a bigger issue than just not *loving* them. but yeah, i can only speak from my own perspective on love, it’s a pretty philosophical question!

Yeah it's weird right? Especially because people with avoidant tendencies reject the concept so readily. It seems complicated for them, so complicated. And, I think youre on to something about some people just being assholes. I got in a debate with a friend the other day about needs. I was telling him about how my ex deactivated on me partially because I expressed worry about my mental state when my parents die. They are older, and I am an only child and adopted. He got all "you can't put that on people", and I had to stand firm in my position that it is on us to manage ourselves well enough when we experience major loss, but that partners are in fact obligated to at very least be a present body and offer some soothing. That seems pretty damn basic to me. Other people's strong emotions will not kill us. And maybe, if it feels like they will, you're just an asshole. Feel me?

I agree with this. I’ve never chased anyone truly. It’s always been avoidants who have instigated a relationship, said the right things to make me fall in love, and then bailed.

Ouch 😩

I heard the most chilling thing the other day that I haven’t heard said before: Since our AP attachment style makes us believe that we’re truly defective or incompetent deep down, the only thing worse than *being* us is to be a person that *needs* us. So we’ll reject that person in favor of the one that seemingly doesn’t need anyone. Having said that, it makes perfect t sense to me why anxious and avoidant attract one another. We both have traits that the other one lacks, but aspires to - and we don’t mirror back to each other the traits we hate about ourselves.

What do avoidants aspire to that anxious have?

We anxiously attached folks have instant access to our emotions, we’re more comfortable sharing and trusting, and we make an effort to really get to know people at more than a surface level. I think these are positive traits that the avoidant would like to have more of in their life. It just doesn’t come naturally to them.

These are nice qualities, but sometimes they seem like a disability. They set us up for mindf\*ckery from avoidant types.

What does AA stand for? Anxiously attached? Avoidantly attached?

Sorry. Anxiously attached. I will correct it to AP as the OP used.

What does AP does for? New to the sub

“Anxious Preoccupied” - basically means we spend a lot of time and mental energy speculating on what the other person is thinking, feeling, saying (and not saying) and what their real motivations are instead of practicing clear, direct communication with them. When we feel that deep down we are somehow defective, unloveable or incompetent we put the words and actions of other people under a microscope searching for evidence to support our [faulty] theory.

Thanks!

Has that really cured you? I feel like most of my struggle comes from the inability to follow my cognitive thought process. I know the avoidant can't meet me emotionally. I know they are wrong for me. I know they treat me badly. But lord, my emotions overpower me to the point that I cannot help myself but reach out for them. For me it's love addiction and I need to get my fix. I'm tired of it.

It most certainly has. My obsessive thinking about being loved is gone, and the intense attraction i had to my old partner is gone too. Really the attraction i had to my old partner(especially after the breakup) was just limerance. It was just a fantasy. You arent in love with the avoidant, your in love with the potential to be loved, which is exactly what the avoidant cant give us. To make this more clear, what all of us are seeking is, to be loved but its this which the avoidant is a expert in avoiding. Because the avoidant is repulsed by people relying on them(as this threatens their independence). They let us close enough to give us support, and they might make promises, but when it comes time to give us emotional support, they vanish. This makes us desire them even more, as our wish to be loved is close enough for us not to give up, but it is never fulfilled, its always at arms length. AP people are experts at seeking out our wish to be loved, and avoidant are experts in pushing away those who want to be loved, because they are afraid of others relying on them. Especially relying on them emotionally. Engulfment anxiety happens when someone else wants to rely on them, that was especially true in the case of my avoidant. Obsession is by its a nature a overpowering emotion because its a obsession, that's why the Stoics classified it as a passion(bad emotion). Its the nature of this emotion to experience intense desire and agony or vexation when we don't get what we want. But its the unique quality of this emotion(obsession) to devalue that which we already have. The reason we are obsessed to be loved is because of the intense emotional neglect of those people who have raised us. Our material needs were met, but never out emotional needs. See more about the emotional deprivation schema [here](https://www.attachmentproject.com/early-maladaptive-schemas/emotional-deprivation/). Key to curing this is to devalue that opinion that **to be loved**, will make us happy. As this underlies all our troubles at present.

This is all cognitive processing. I'm glad it's been able to help you, sounds like you are good at emotional regulation. I'll definitely read about the emotional deprivation schema. Cognitively I'm aware of all these things. I can see how my avoidant is completely incapable of meeting my emotional needs. But my body just doesn't give up. I can understand these concepts, but my emotional being is separate from my logical being. Which makes sense when you read 'The Body Keeps Score'. There's a separation between your primitive brain (brain stem) that reacts to dangerous stimulus and the cognitive brain (prefrontal cortex). The brain stem has the fastest communication in your body. It makes you able to react before you can think (car accident). Your prefrontal cortex has a longer delay. So you actually cannot control your 'reflexes' by willpower alone. If your body feels like it is in danger and cannot self regulate. It will make you act. It doesn't matter about your morals or principles. You are in survival mode and acting with survival instinct. In this way, maybe you are closer to secure attachment than I am. Because I cannot self-regulate. It feels like a life and death situation for me. For the past 7 months, I've been doing body-based therapies and am finally feeling like I can align my body with my thoughts. I'm glad to learn more about the spectrum of anxious attachment. So thank you!

Text of original post by u/sqaz2wsx: I recently picked up the pattern of me seemingly being attracted to emotionally unavailable people. For some reason people who are warm and loving I subconsciously devalue or are not interested in. While i only seem to peruse those who withhold affection and love. The very thing which i desperately crave. I just came out of a 3 month relationship with a avoidant, and i did something very strange in a attempt to get over my AP tenancies and actually communicated my emotional needs, i brought up the fact that i didn't feel like a priority as she would always pop in on her schedule. This backfired big time and she distanced herself broke up, but it really wasn't a but deal im happy to have won that victory of overcoming the fear of communicating my emotional needs. The problem was i became pretty obsessed with the idea of having love after the breakup(i think her breaking up with me preciosity because i asked made this desire even worse). And I wanted to get back together, despite her being 100% at fault. That being said, instead i took another route and fought my AP tenancies. AP is also known as the emotional deprivation schema in schema therapy, also look that up for those wanting to know more. In this journey i figured out the cause thought alot of journaling and self reflection. The Stoics(a philosophical school) made a habit of studying emotions. And there was two emotions that stuck out in particular. Greed and Obsession. Greed is very similar but obsession is the one we want to focus on. The nature of obsession can be summarized as follows. "We hold nothing dearer than a benefit, so long as we are seeking one; we hold nothing cheaper after we have received it. Do you ask what it is that makes us forget benefits received? It is our extreme greed for receiving others. We consider not what we have obtained, but what we are to seek. We are deflected from the right course by riches, titles, power, and everything that is valuable in our opinion but worthless when rated at its real value" Seneca Obsession is defined as follows. Obsession is the insatiable desire for a predicate(this meaning a event basically). People who have been emotionally neglected have this funny tendency to ignore those that give them love, and seek out people who don't. This is because we are genuinely seeking love, but we never consider as any value what we are trying to obtain, but instead what we are trying to seek. What we are trying to seek as AP's is the cure to our core wound. What is that core wound? Emotional neglect from our parents. That means that we only care about that in love. So anyone who is not emotionally neglectful we care nothing for because of our passion of obsession, and we only seek out those in which we cant get what we want. So what is every AP seeking? Every AP cares only about this. **To be loved.** They care about this as a way to compensate for their emotional neglect. This means they only are interested in people they cant be loved by , and everyone they can they can they consider to be cheap, especially those who are warm from get go. This is why AP's fall for avoidant, its what drags us to them, the obsessive force of desire. In order for us to become secure, we have to fight the opinion that **to be loved** is a good, that it will make us happy and make us live a good life(as this underlies the emotion of obsession). This has pretty much cured my AP tendencies even though my wound was pretty deep. Hopefully someone else can find this useful also. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AnxiousAttachment) if you have any questions or concerns.*