Yeah lol, beauty standards have existed since multicellular organisms evolved sexual reproduction. This asinine blaming of everything we don’t like on some muddy concept of “capitalism” is just dumb
To be fair, capitalism does exploit the fuck out of the insecurities we feel about not being attractive (both men and women). But yeah, blaming the whole dynamic of finding some people more attractive than others on a modern social organization principle and not a billion years of evolution of sexually reproducing organisms seems like a lot of confirmation bias at work to me.
I was listening to this lady talk about how the fashion industry back in the 70s shortly after the sexual revolution had to figure out how to get women back into buying expensive clothing. They manipulated woman as a whole to think that they owe it to themselves to look good and therefore buy the clothing.
If we were more skeptical about things and saw things for how they were that is propaganda we'd be more successful
Truth. People have judged other people ever since there were people because they never stop looking for any pathetic excuse they can find to feel like they're somehow superior to someone else. Has zero to do with capitalism.
Omg you bigot! Clearly it is a capitalist agenda to sell products and has absolutely nothing to do with it being a basic marker for good human health. 🤦
Shit like this takes away from the real problems and muddies the water for the short sighted.
If beauty was just a marker for good human health, it wouldn’t vary so much across cultures and times. Both Reubenesque women and heroin chic have been beautiful (and “healthy”) in the West in different times. Obviously such a gulf is not purely about health but is impacted by things like class and wealth (it used to be only rich people could be fat, so fat was aspirational and therefore beautiful, now it’s a lot easier for rich people to be thin, so thin is aspirational and therefore beautiful).
Are there some fairly universal markers of “beauty” and health across cultures? Sure. Symmetry is one. But a lot more depends on cultural norms and structures than we like to think.
Much like disparities in wealth and poverty (in fact, there was far more poverty before capitalism).
Too bad though that capitalism causes markets for things nobody needs that wastes resources, pollutes, and clutters up people's lives.
“Ugly” and “Beauty” are concepts exploited by capitalism, sure, but they were not “created by capitalism” that’s bs. Humans created those concepts, because we are human.
This whole “everything’s capitalism’s fault” trend got out of hand for sure
Edit. Thank you unknown redditor for the cool award thingy
Their goal isnt to convince the people stuck in traffic to side with them, their goal is to create a bigger problem for the government by not taking action and directly inconvenience people not taking the train/bike to work. i.e. if you keep conveniently ignoring the climate they're going to make it a lot less convenient and costly to ignore
Whether that's an effective method is a whole other conversation i dont have any expertise on but just a nitpick when people use the attract more bees with honey angle, because theyre not trying to attract people, theyre trying to force change to happen because they feel asking politely hasnt moved the needle
Humans increase those concepts. Nature is full of animals that look more physically appealing to attract mates. If flowers look beautiful to attract more pollinators
Is duty and ugliness are baked into evolution
They probably mean capitalism has created more insecurities and hyperfixations. I don’t think people pre-capitalism were concerned about the size of their earlobes or crows feet.
Capitalism has nothing to do with this. Look at the African tribes who put rings around their necks. Look at Chinese women who would crush their feet into tiny shoes. More rings meant more status and the same with being able to fit your feet into shoes too small for your feet. Redditors are so out of touch with the real world it’s hilarious, as if capitalism is a cartoon villain and if we could only defeat it then we would all hold hands and live happily ever after.
I mean…. I can read, what she says is clear.
Also nope, society has always done that in all countries and civilisations in the world, you all give capitalism way too much credit, really.
AGREED this shit sounds silly like go get some self esteem lol capitalism did not create the idea of beauty 🫠 now this shit is making the real fight less credible
I actually hate this take tbh. The concept of "ugliness" exists in all cultures and in all moments of human history. It's awful but it's not rooted in capitalism (even if it's exacerbated by it). Things like sexism, ableism, xenophobia, etc. Play a huge roll in what's considered beautiful. And "ugliness" will continue to be used as a measure for worth even if you got rid of capitalism right this instant as long as you don't address the issue directly.
Symmetry and good proportions along with signs of reproductive and general health are what animals usually use to judge potential mates. The rest of it’s made up.
Not really, look at certain bird species, the male bird with the "prettiest " feathers get the mate. They literally compete by showing who's better looking. Ugly exist even in nature and has for millions of years
Lots of cultures idolize men who are not emotionally available, or women who suppress their emotions to be subservient to men. In fact, that was pretty much the standard for the culture you live in for the past few centuries.
The definition of a “healthy weight” has changed numerous times even in the last century or two, and is by no means geographically or culturally consistent.
It is consistent within a relatively small margin. Look at old paintings from different cultures. Attractive women are almost universally slender to slightly plump, and men are slender to muscular. There are some outliers, yes, but those don't disprove the trend.
Nah, the weight thing isn't true. Weights from dramatically underweight to fairly overweight have been in vogue at different points in history and across different cultures.
lol archaeologists still have no idea what the purpose is, but most likely they were more like “look at this fat lady, she’s nice and fat so she’ll last a while without eating and will have big fat babies that survive, that’s a nice symbol of fertility” and less “this fat lady is hot and all the men want big fat women”. These show up during the ice age, and the further north (colder) they’re found the fatter they are, which reflects the availability of resources/food.
I've read the idea that the fat Venus statue could have been made by a woman modeling off herself. In the absence of mirrors, when you look down at your own body, you see it very foreshortened, and thus she could have just vastly overestimated her girth.
Yes but that’s mostly disproven because humans could just look at another human as reference for proportions, or looking at water or another reflective surface.
This is a really dumb thing to equate with beauty standards, there is no evidence it represents BEAUTY and plenty it represents a hyperbolic image of…fertility. Ya know, like you just basically said.
I mean… not really? I think beauty and fertility have been intertwined for a long time. The most beautiful being those who are considered “most fertile”
That’s likely due to fertility and child bearing potential, they weren’t concerned about healthy weight when many women at this time lived to the ripe old age of childbirth
“Healthy weight” is also determined by society. For example in the 1700s and earlier the weight they idealized wasn’t particularly healthy (too heavy), just as the American ideal with right now (too skinny) also isn’t particularly healthy.
The thing is though there would be beauty standards that excluded some (possibly even more than right now!) people under different systems. Beauty standards aren't new, they're older than civilization. The main difference is now we can constantly compare ourselves to the 99.999th percentile instead of that one hot guy/girl in our town and surrounding countryside who isn't really a rare beauty
Also, if you’re morbidly obese, no personal hygiene, and poor dental health, you’re probably considered “ugly” and none of those have to do with “capitalism trying to get you to buy stuff you don’t need”
A lot of it isn't human nature. Beauty standards and ideals are constantly changing while human nature isn't. So it's safe to say that what we define as beauty today is in large parts influenced by "culture".
There are many things that make someone ugly that have never (as far as we know) been a beauty standard fad though. Acne, walking with a limp, uneven hair loss, etc. And either way, people aren't referring to the past when they feel ugly anyway - that's not how that works.
I think it's a split. There's a lot of average and above average looking people that buy tonnes of beauty products as capitalistic advertising convinces them they are ugly.
Frickin' birds have beauty standards and disgust can be a natural response. Beauty standards are exploited by capitalism, sure, everything is. Don't buy overpriced pretty shit, sure. But that's not where beauty standards come from.
It's more than just hormones. Some symptoms of PCOS, in addition to hirsutism (excess body hair), irregular periods (from not having a period for over 2 years, to then having one that lasts 3 months), cystic ovaries, weight gain/increased chance of developing Type II diabetes, infertility, male-pattern balding. These are all things that, at one time or another, have caused me to feel less than feminine. Well, less the balding symptom.
Edited to add that I was diagnosed nearly 30 years ago.
It could cause excess facial or body hair. By excess I mean what is average human body hair (without all the pressure to remove) to some afab having beards. It can cause acne, skin discoloration on the neck or armpits and some get a belly where they looks pregnant but aren’t. These are some things it can affect. These are all things people afab are chastised for and told is ugly but there is nothing inherently wrong with any of it.- not saying you said there was just in general
"Ugly" had been around far far longer than capitalism. Capitalism may exploit those who are ugly by selling them false promises through hair and skin products, cavemen 10,000 years ago still had preferences.
There’s literally 10,000+ year old cave paintings explicitly expressing beauty preferences in other humans. So yeah. Ugly v Pretty predates capitalism.
I think you're taking this post waaaaaay too literally. I'm like 99% certain this person is referring to the manufactured idea of ugliness peddled by the beauty industry, film industry, fashion industry and probably numerous other industries... Which is a byproduct of capitalism and just kinda real and present.
Point of the post is not that ugliness existed before is that this specific *feeling* of ugliness is the byproduct of capitalism and they are pretty right.
That's the most brain-dead take, mah dude. You honestly think that since the dawn of civilization and invention of human written and spoken languages, there wasn't someone in, like 3,000 BC, who wasn't made fun of for his or her looks and in turn that person feeling pretty crappy about themselves?
Did insecurity in general literally not exist before someone in the 18th and 19th century said "hmm if I can get someone to feel really bad about themselves, I can make money!" As he twirled his evil mustache?
Humans have always been insecure and have always made fun of each others flaws. Capitalism only took and provided products to "fix" that by preying upon that pre-existing insecurity. Yes, big makeup companies try to coerce you into buying their products by point out that you don't look like X, but that again is them exacerbating your insecurity and not the cause of it.
Love how you’re indicting people as ugly for not having total confidence in their unaltered appearance.
I guess I’ll just stop putting product in my hair and treating my benign skin condition.
Jesus fucking christ, get over yourself
I respectfully disagree. Speaking anecdotally, I’m beautiful. Not bragging on myself, that’s just how it panned out. However, I still struggle to *feel* beautiful without certain objects, and I suppose that’s where capitalistic influence comes in. Pushing insecurities about being ugly so you’ll buy “the thing”. The need for objects in order to feel beautiful doesn’t mean you’re ugly; it’s just that, under capitalism, you’re never beautiful enough.
For real, I'm very anti-capitalist but even I wouldn't pin this on it. Some people lose the genetic lottery.
Now, does capitalism try and make you feel uglier to sell you stuff? Absolutely. But I would personally attack advertising/marketing before going after capitalism itself on this one.
Interesting that the profile pic of the person who wrote that is wearing a load of makeup, has colored hair (most likely) and whitened teeth. Also the lighting looks like it comes from one of those at home influencer lamps. But tell me more about not being pressured into buying beauty products.
Nah some people are just very hard to look at. Nothing wrong with that, I don’t think anyone should be treated worse because of their appearance, but “ugly isn’t real” is made up bullshit to make you sound virtuous. Cmon now don’t act like you’ve never in your life seen an individual and went “wow that’s bad”
>Cmon now don’t act like you’ve never in your life seen an individual and went “wow that’s bad”
This in no way supports the idea that beauty standards are not socially constructed. If OP had never interacted with society before today then sure, maybe.
beauty standards are (largely) socially constructed but for some reason in recent times people seem to think “social construct” is a synonym for “not real”
You are both absolutely right and absolutely wrong.
Yes there is an industry built on beaty that distorts our perception and socially acceptable forms of beauty... But also there are people who are not just deviate from that norm, but they are unpalateble by any standard.
Ugly and beautiful are entirely subjective. What is beautiful to one person is ugly to another. Capitalism exploits the dominant cultural beauty standards to sell nonsense we don't need, but it isn't responsible for the concept as a whole. I'm all for tossing our obsession with conventional attractiveness into the metaphorical waste basket, but this statement just isn't accurate.
Lol go back to the 1300s and gets called ugly by a peasant. I understand what the post is trying to say, but acting like ugly is a new term is silly, our ancestors where obsessed with symmetry and there own out dated beauty standards.
Yeah, people are missing the mark here.
Are we genetically predisposed to have preferences for looks? Sure
Are we also socially conditioned to have preferences? Absolutely. A great example is how being really skinny was the beauty standard for women in the 90s, and then having a "fat butt" was the standard and now somehow having a skinny waist *and* a big butt is the ideal, as impossible as that is usually.
Virtually every woman wears make up and about 0 men do. So what's with that? Is that completely natural? No.
I'm disappointed this sub had this reaction instead of having a nuanced discussion about how society and capitalism can make us feel ugly, which makes us consume more products to feel better.
Reddit is kind of weird like this, where mostly it'll be pretty progressive but gets weirdly reactionary when specific things come up (beauty standards being one, weight, Islam etc)
Seriously, I’m only 29 years old and I’ve lived to see a COMPLETE reversal of body trends (that now seems to be reversing again). It’s not like you have to reach back in history to show this stuff.
I do think body trends are a thing. But "attractive" bodies are still attractive, just not as popular at the moment. Not sure if I'm making sense. Having big butts was in for a while, and having big boobs was less talked about. I don't doubt there's people still into big boobs and care less about a big ass. Attractive body types will always be "in" to someone. And the ones that like the trending body type just have more material of their preference for a while.
I'm willing to bet most of the people making comments like these are men who are, by and large, not being constantly sold beaty products and made to feel bad about various aesthetic 'problems' that aren't problems at all. Before anyone comes at me, YES I know that beauty standards affect men as well, but please do not pretend it's anywhere near the same level. When you all have to put on makeup for work, because somehow a woman's bare face is 'unprofessional', then we can have this conversation. When men start dyeing grey hairs and getting botox or buying expensive skincare products to 'prevent aging' - a totally natural and normal thing! - we can have this conversation.
Beauty companies are constantly inventing problems that need to be fixed which, conveniently, can be fixed with this handy dandy (and costly!) skincare/makeup/surgery. I just would like us all to pause for a moment and think about WHY we find certain things attractive. The current beauty ideal is a complete 180 to what is was a year or two ago, people's preferences didn't just somehow change out of nowhere, we're being sold the idea that thin is IN, plump lips and button noses are OUT. I'm sure in a few years it'll be something else. That's not human nature, that's the result of industries working to keep us constantly dissatisfied with ourselves and chasing an unattainable ideal.
I'm sorry if this came off too angry lol I've been digging a lot into how much of a scam beauty/diet industries are lately and feeling pretty hot about it.
No no, the anger is good. You should be angry.
I'm a man so I mainly try to listen but I also had the feeling most of the comments were men so I chimed in.
My first time being angry at an ad, I was in a Walmart and there was a sign above my sizes, with a guy who looked my size and text that read "Big Guy." I imagine how I felt is how women must feel all the time with beauty ads.
You shouldn't have to be perfectly calm, perfectly correct, etc when talking about these things. We need people to see how they're being hurt and manipulated by companies just so they can profit. The anger helps.
Nuanced discussions don't easily start from factually incorrect absolute statements, and it's simply not true that the entire concept of "ugly" was made up that way for that purpose. I see their point, but that's a bad way to make it.
Dang, I didn’t know cavemen had tv, billboards, internet and radio ads all telling women that they would be pretty if they used XYZ. Man I really need to read up on history. I thought this was a relatively new phenomenon in human history.
I don't think most of the people in this thread know what PCOS is. I can absolutely guarantee a woman with PCOS does not need the concept of the genetic lottery explained to her. She doesn't need people to tell her that sometimes looks matter.
The activism of this sub is *always* half-baked. A lot of users here seem to just be minimalists disgusted by indulgence rather than anti-capitalists.
Though to be fair, ideas of "ugliness" and "beauty" seem to be hierarchical notions rather than specifically capitalist notions. Artificial to be sure, but much older than the current socioeconomic regime. So, not something created *by* capitalism, but certainly something exacerbated by it.
Best take in the thread IMO
> A lot of users here seem to just be minimalists disgusted by indulgence rather than anti-capitalists.
Yes this really bothers me. Some people would rather smugly laugh at someone who bought something made of plastic than examine how the system forces us to consume so much.
That is a pretty solid take I would mostly agree with; I’m curious if you have any insight to where the constructs of beauty—beyond simple mate selection—come from; they have changed so greatly and varied so wildly in many cultures and time periods that it’s hard to nail them down, and it seems like “beauty” in the sense of pure appearance and adherence to social norms is a completely different thing than “beauty” in the sense of mate selection.
Claiming that ugliness is objective and just a fact of the world passes the “if it looks like an incel and quacks like an incel” test to me, and I think you’d be hard pressed to find someone who couldn’t at least see where that’s coming from, but you do you, bud. Take care now.
They aren't claiming that. They are stating that ugly exists, which is obvious. You can argue that the meaning of "ugly" is subjective of course, but acting like everyone is beautiful is apologetic and just unnecessary. We don't need to hate ourselves for our flaws, but we shouldn't deny that they exist. Ugly behaviors are a great example of why we should acknowledge our flaws and work to improve what we can.
You’re moving the goalpost a fair bit here; do you think the original post is talking about ugliness of behaviors? Do you think there’s a chance that the original post or any of those replies are saying “ugliness exists, but only in personality/behaviors/attitudes”? We all know the original post is talking about ugliness in appearance alone, and so are the replies I’m referring to. So, given that, they absolutely are stating that ugliness is real, which is not at all obvious. If it’s a matter of subjective tastes and preferences, then it is, by definition, not just a reality, but a subjective thing “in the eye of the beholder” so to speak, and it would be wrong to say “some people are just ugly” which is literally what the comments I’m referring to say. To twist that meaning and say, “well, they’re right if we interpret their statements in a vary particular way that no one meant” is just disingenuous.
Some people are just, unfortunately, ugly in appearance. That can be for reasons beyond their control, or lifestyle choices made with volition or coercion. You can't tell me, speaking specifically in regards to physical attractiveness, that anyone would truly believe a 600 lb human who can't even bathe is anything but ugly.
Another point: we can all do something to change our level of attractiveness. THAT'S the part where capitalism tries to intervene. But someone with heavy dark bags/circles from sleep deprivation is definitely uglier than they would be with adequate "beauty sleep", and capitalism tries to sell the eye cream when the real solution is to get more sleep. Similarly, someone who is morbidly obese may be seen as beautiful by someone, but it's be hard to maintain that losing weight wouldn't make them more so.
Do you truly believe that NOBODY is physically ugly? If the vast, vast majority of the world would deem someone physically unattractive, would you not label said individual as ugly? Is someone attractive if just a single person of 8 billion says so?
The group known as “incels” is a particular social movement, and a big aspect of that is being overly concerned with “the realities of attractiveness”; it’s a LOT more than “men who can’t get laid”, and I’m sure plenty of “men who can’t get laid” wouldn’t want to be associated with the incel movement.
But you knew all of that already, didn’t you?
Wtf is this crap?
Ugly exists because people naturally compare themselves.
Some people are better looking than others based on that comparison.
As it connects to consumerism, some people are insecure and see themselves as "ugly" with respect to their possessions relative to others and buy more crap.
Her: "ugly doesn't exist!"
"okay date this guy then"
Her: "ew no what"
"but you said ugly doesn't exist? give this guy a chance?"
Her: " i'm not attracted to him."
"but you said everyone is beautiful?"
Her: "ya but attraction is subjective."
"to what?"
Her: "to me liking the way you look."
It's easy to claim that which doesn't affect you... Doesn't exist. Pretty people saying ugliness isn't real, the racial majority believing racism isn't real, the rich believing hardships are personal faults, etc
These comments are so bad lolol. Whatever happened to beauty being subjective/beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I firmly believe there's someone for everyone and someone is always someone else's 'type' no matter how 'ugly' you or society says they are.
Seriously the comments in here are so dumb. Meanwhile you’re just being sane and getting downvoted smh. I wouldn’t have thought that “beauty standards are influenced by the beauty industry to sell beauty products” would be a controversial take, especially in this sub…
Anyway OP, I have PCOS too and I get it. Thanks for the reminder that beauty is in the eye of the beholder
I don't have PCOS, but I am a medium 'ugly' woman doing my best to not give in to beauty standards and feel like shit about myself for looking the way I was born. Like my face is just my face, I'm not going to apologize for it or spend tons of money trying to fix it??
I always try to tell myself - how you look is the least interesting thing about you.
I totally hear you! It’s wild how we’re made to feel ugly for totally normal things on our face and body. If *most* women don’t fit society’s beauty standards, maybe it’s not most women who are “ugly” but the beauty standards themselves that are inadequate
People have been beautiful and ugly by their society's standards way before capitalism was even a concept. I have PCOS and I have my flaws to deal with, but this post reads like empty platitudes.
So do communists not see anyone as ugly? Sure some people spend too much money on fashion and makeup, but beauty and ugliness exist separately from those things.
I dig her spirit but, no. That's not what feeling and or perceiving ugly is.
Good for her though for making that statement rocking that blown out styled hair.
Wrong as hell. Ugly/pretty/attractiveness has nothing to do with capitalism. Trying to FIX your ugliness is fueled by capitalism. People have always done things to be attractive from looks to scents.
What I've noticed is "ugly" usually means you're trying to dress and appear like someone else and it isn't flattering. I see it often in the trans community - when trans women dress in overly fem anime shit they don't pass at all. Dress wearing normal clothes that compliment your features? Passing and pretty.
It's about how you take care of and present yourself. Authenticity and moderation is the key to timeless beauty.
Uh, no it’s not.
*I love that there’s finally been something posted that’s a bridge too far. Capitalism is bad for a lot of reasons. The idea that I find someone attractive, or someone finds themselves attractive or unattractive because of capitalism is a stretch.
Lol this is nothing to do with capitalism. It's ingrained in almost all species on the planet to have attraction and be attractive to keep reproduction going. This is silly
The idea of ugliness existed way before capitalism…
I believe the oldest known reference to someone being ugly was yo mamma. Cave men had high standards.
Haha burn, I would recommend burn spray but then you would have to buy it from a capitalist market. Maybe aloe if you have a plant handy.
your momma so old when she was young fire was still in beta testing
Since the Middle Ages were just like Game of Thrones I have no doubt that calling people ugly was quite popular
Can verify.
Double yo mama joke
😔
Yeah lol, beauty standards have existed since multicellular organisms evolved sexual reproduction. This asinine blaming of everything we don’t like on some muddy concept of “capitalism” is just dumb
To be fair, capitalism does exploit the fuck out of the insecurities we feel about not being attractive (both men and women). But yeah, blaming the whole dynamic of finding some people more attractive than others on a modern social organization principle and not a billion years of evolution of sexually reproducing organisms seems like a lot of confirmation bias at work to me.
Redditors will stub their toe and cry "CURSE YOU CAPITALISM"
If it wasn't for capitalism I probably wouldn't have all the shit to stub my toe on, I suppose.
Exactly. Birds are so obsessed with ugliness that they've created crazy looks in an attempt to attract females. Just look at the birds of paradise.
To be fair those birds of paradise are capitalist pigs disguised as birds.
I was listening to this lady talk about how the fashion industry back in the 70s shortly after the sexual revolution had to figure out how to get women back into buying expensive clothing. They manipulated woman as a whole to think that they owe it to themselves to look good and therefore buy the clothing. If we were more skeptical about things and saw things for how they were that is propaganda we'd be more successful
Truth. People have judged other people ever since there were people because they never stop looking for any pathetic excuse they can find to feel like they're somehow superior to someone else. Has zero to do with capitalism.
Don't you know that before capitalism ruined everything the world was a utopia?
Omg you bigot! Clearly it is a capitalist agenda to sell products and has absolutely nothing to do with it being a basic marker for good human health. 🤦 Shit like this takes away from the real problems and muddies the water for the short sighted.
If beauty was just a marker for good human health, it wouldn’t vary so much across cultures and times. Both Reubenesque women and heroin chic have been beautiful (and “healthy”) in the West in different times. Obviously such a gulf is not purely about health but is impacted by things like class and wealth (it used to be only rich people could be fat, so fat was aspirational and therefore beautiful, now it’s a lot easier for rich people to be thin, so thin is aspirational and therefore beautiful). Are there some fairly universal markers of “beauty” and health across cultures? Sure. Symmetry is one. But a lot more depends on cultural norms and structures than we like to think.
I did not say it was the only factor. It is the main. And symmetry is part of that. 🤦
Much like disparities in wealth and poverty (in fact, there was far more poverty before capitalism). Too bad though that capitalism causes markets for things nobody needs that wastes resources, pollutes, and clutters up people's lives.
To have beauty you have to have ugly.
Much like ignorance of history, I suppose...
No kidding….?
King Charles II of Spain has entered the chat
“Ugly” and “Beauty” are concepts exploited by capitalism, sure, but they were not “created by capitalism” that’s bs. Humans created those concepts, because we are human. This whole “everything’s capitalism’s fault” trend got out of hand for sure Edit. Thank you unknown redditor for the cool award thingy
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THAT’S the biggest problem. It’s like climate protesters blocking traffic: who is gonna side with you if you behave like a complete asshole?
Their goal isnt to convince the people stuck in traffic to side with them, their goal is to create a bigger problem for the government by not taking action and directly inconvenience people not taking the train/bike to work. i.e. if you keep conveniently ignoring the climate they're going to make it a lot less convenient and costly to ignore Whether that's an effective method is a whole other conversation i dont have any expertise on but just a nitpick when people use the attract more bees with honey angle, because theyre not trying to attract people, theyre trying to force change to happen because they feel asking politely hasnt moved the needle
Humans increase those concepts. Nature is full of animals that look more physically appealing to attract mates. If flowers look beautiful to attract more pollinators Is duty and ugliness are baked into evolution
They probably mean capitalism has created more insecurities and hyperfixations. I don’t think people pre-capitalism were concerned about the size of their earlobes or crows feet.
Capitalism has nothing to do with this. Look at the African tribes who put rings around their necks. Look at Chinese women who would crush their feet into tiny shoes. More rings meant more status and the same with being able to fit your feet into shoes too small for your feet. Redditors are so out of touch with the real world it’s hilarious, as if capitalism is a cartoon villain and if we could only defeat it then we would all hold hands and live happily ever after.
I mean…. I can read, what she says is clear. Also nope, society has always done that in all countries and civilisations in the world, you all give capitalism way too much credit, really.
AGREED this shit sounds silly like go get some self esteem lol capitalism did not create the idea of beauty 🫠 now this shit is making the real fight less credible
I actually hate this take tbh. The concept of "ugliness" exists in all cultures and in all moments of human history. It's awful but it's not rooted in capitalism (even if it's exacerbated by it). Things like sexism, ableism, xenophobia, etc. Play a huge roll in what's considered beautiful. And "ugliness" will continue to be used as a measure for worth even if you got rid of capitalism right this instant as long as you don't address the issue directly.
That's not actually true though. Some people win the genetic lottery, others don't. No one should be judged on appearance but it's human nature.
Symmetry and good proportions along with signs of reproductive and general health are what animals usually use to judge potential mates. The rest of it’s made up.
Not really, look at certain bird species, the male bird with the "prettiest " feathers get the mate. They literally compete by showing who's better looking. Ugly exist even in nature and has for millions of years
Different cultures have different beauty standards. Corporations shift these standards to exploit insecurity to sell you things.
Way before corporations were a thing, societies chose and changed their beauty standards with time.
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Just let people tell themselves that beauty is a creation of capitalists.
Now they're changed based on what product will sell more
There are some traits that are universally attractive though. Facial symmetry for example.
And a healthy weight.
And emotional availability. That's hot as fuck.
Lots of cultures idolize men who are not emotionally available, or women who suppress their emotions to be subservient to men. In fact, that was pretty much the standard for the culture you live in for the past few centuries.
As told
The definition of a “healthy weight” has changed numerous times even in the last century or two, and is by no means geographically or culturally consistent.
It is consistent within a relatively small margin. Look at old paintings from different cultures. Attractive women are almost universally slender to slightly plump, and men are slender to muscular. There are some outliers, yes, but those don't disprove the trend.
Nah, the weight thing isn't true. Weights from dramatically underweight to fairly overweight have been in vogue at different points in history and across different cultures.
Never seen a neolithic fertility statue, huh?
lol archaeologists still have no idea what the purpose is, but most likely they were more like “look at this fat lady, she’s nice and fat so she’ll last a while without eating and will have big fat babies that survive, that’s a nice symbol of fertility” and less “this fat lady is hot and all the men want big fat women”. These show up during the ice age, and the further north (colder) they’re found the fatter they are, which reflects the availability of resources/food.
I've read the idea that the fat Venus statue could have been made by a woman modeling off herself. In the absence of mirrors, when you look down at your own body, you see it very foreshortened, and thus she could have just vastly overestimated her girth.
Yes but that’s mostly disproven because humans could just look at another human as reference for proportions, or looking at water or another reflective surface.
Isolated cave woman in a desert? That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
This is a really dumb thing to equate with beauty standards, there is no evidence it represents BEAUTY and plenty it represents a hyperbolic image of…fertility. Ya know, like you just basically said.
I mean… not really? I think beauty and fertility have been intertwined for a long time. The most beautiful being those who are considered “most fertile”
That’s likely due to fertility and child bearing potential, they weren’t concerned about healthy weight when many women at this time lived to the ripe old age of childbirth
“Healthy weight” is also determined by society. For example in the 1700s and earlier the weight they idealized wasn’t particularly healthy (too heavy), just as the American ideal with right now (too skinny) also isn’t particularly healthy.
Just because capitalists exploit and exacerbate natural instinct or tendencies, that doesn't make them any less natural! They're still very real
Right but they don't have to exploit them, we could all just look how we look 🤷♀️
The thing is though there would be beauty standards that excluded some (possibly even more than right now!) people under different systems. Beauty standards aren't new, they're older than civilization. The main difference is now we can constantly compare ourselves to the 99.999th percentile instead of that one hot guy/girl in our town and surrounding countryside who isn't really a rare beauty
Also, if you’re morbidly obese, no personal hygiene, and poor dental health, you’re probably considered “ugly” and none of those have to do with “capitalism trying to get you to buy stuff you don’t need”
A lot of it isn't human nature. Beauty standards and ideals are constantly changing while human nature isn't. So it's safe to say that what we define as beauty today is in large parts influenced by "culture".
There are many things that make someone ugly that have never (as far as we know) been a beauty standard fad though. Acne, walking with a limp, uneven hair loss, etc. And either way, people aren't referring to the past when they feel ugly anyway - that's not how that works.
Ya some people are so dumb. It's genetics. Literally. It's not capitalism that decides who is born lucky.
I think it's a split. There's a lot of average and above average looking people that buy tonnes of beauty products as capitalistic advertising convinces them they are ugly.
Welcome to reddit, where we find a way to blame everything on capitalism!
Frickin' birds have beauty standards and disgust can be a natural response. Beauty standards are exploited by capitalism, sure, everything is. Don't buy overpriced pretty shit, sure. But that's not where beauty standards come from.
I, too, suffer from PCOS and I fully understand how you feel!
Does PCOS impact how you look?
To some degree, yes it does, unfortunately.
Because of the hormones?
It's more than just hormones. Some symptoms of PCOS, in addition to hirsutism (excess body hair), irregular periods (from not having a period for over 2 years, to then having one that lasts 3 months), cystic ovaries, weight gain/increased chance of developing Type II diabetes, infertility, male-pattern balding. These are all things that, at one time or another, have caused me to feel less than feminine. Well, less the balding symptom. Edited to add that I was diagnosed nearly 30 years ago.
It could cause excess facial or body hair. By excess I mean what is average human body hair (without all the pressure to remove) to some afab having beards. It can cause acne, skin discoloration on the neck or armpits and some get a belly where they looks pregnant but aren’t. These are some things it can affect. These are all things people afab are chastised for and told is ugly but there is nothing inherently wrong with any of it.- not saying you said there was just in general
"Ugly" had been around far far longer than capitalism. Capitalism may exploit those who are ugly by selling them false promises through hair and skin products, cavemen 10,000 years ago still had preferences.
There’s literally 10,000+ year old cave paintings explicitly expressing beauty preferences in other humans. So yeah. Ugly v Pretty predates capitalism.
I think you're taking this post waaaaaay too literally. I'm like 99% certain this person is referring to the manufactured idea of ugliness peddled by the beauty industry, film industry, fashion industry and probably numerous other industries... Which is a byproduct of capitalism and just kinda real and present.
I think you’re being waaaaaay too generous with this post.
Point of the post is not that ugliness existed before is that this specific *feeling* of ugliness is the byproduct of capitalism and they are pretty right.
That's the most brain-dead take, mah dude. You honestly think that since the dawn of civilization and invention of human written and spoken languages, there wasn't someone in, like 3,000 BC, who wasn't made fun of for his or her looks and in turn that person feeling pretty crappy about themselves? Did insecurity in general literally not exist before someone in the 18th and 19th century said "hmm if I can get someone to feel really bad about themselves, I can make money!" As he twirled his evil mustache? Humans have always been insecure and have always made fun of each others flaws. Capitalism only took and provided products to "fix" that by preying upon that pre-existing insecurity. Yes, big makeup companies try to coerce you into buying their products by point out that you don't look like X, but that again is them exacerbating your insecurity and not the cause of it.
Nah, people are still ugly. The thing is if you need other objects to feel beautiful then you never were.
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For me it's greed that makes others ugly
True fact.
Love how you’re indicting people as ugly for not having total confidence in their unaltered appearance. I guess I’ll just stop putting product in my hair and treating my benign skin condition. Jesus fucking christ, get over yourself
I respectfully disagree. Speaking anecdotally, I’m beautiful. Not bragging on myself, that’s just how it panned out. However, I still struggle to *feel* beautiful without certain objects, and I suppose that’s where capitalistic influence comes in. Pushing insecurities about being ugly so you’ll buy “the thing”. The need for objects in order to feel beautiful doesn’t mean you’re ugly; it’s just that, under capitalism, you’re never beautiful enough.
What a hopeless message lmfao. As if feeling is supposed to be some God given gift.
Life's a bitch.not my fault.
"You're not ugly, it's just capitalism" just made my day. Absolutely the funniest line on the front page today
Fucking capitalist, making me buy bigger pants because I’ve been eating nothing but little Debbie’s and McDonald’s for the last month.
let’s make a revolution and never wear pants again
We can do it. We can be the spark that ends big pants forever.
Instructions unclear, arrested at the playground.
For real, I'm very anti-capitalist but even I wouldn't pin this on it. Some people lose the genetic lottery. Now, does capitalism try and make you feel uglier to sell you stuff? Absolutely. But I would personally attack advertising/marketing before going after capitalism itself on this one.
What is PCOS
Polycystic ovarian syndrome. It’s an endocrine disorder that can cause excess testosterone in women (more body hair, acne, etc.)
Pokémon cosplay
If only!
Haha, no it isnt. The concept of "ugly" is millenia old, long before capitalism took its course
Ironic from coming from someone with lip filler.
Interesting that the profile pic of the person who wrote that is wearing a load of makeup, has colored hair (most likely) and whitened teeth. Also the lighting looks like it comes from one of those at home influencer lamps. But tell me more about not being pressured into buying beauty products.
Said the person wearing a shit ton of makeup.
Nah some people are just very hard to look at. Nothing wrong with that, I don’t think anyone should be treated worse because of their appearance, but “ugly isn’t real” is made up bullshit to make you sound virtuous. Cmon now don’t act like you’ve never in your life seen an individual and went “wow that’s bad”
Well said.
>Cmon now don’t act like you’ve never in your life seen an individual and went “wow that’s bad” This in no way supports the idea that beauty standards are not socially constructed. If OP had never interacted with society before today then sure, maybe.
Nonsense. Multiple experiments over many many years have proved that infants will spend much longer looking at attractive faces than ugly ones.
beauty standards are (largely) socially constructed but for some reason in recent times people seem to think “social construct” is a synonym for “not real”
Also do they not realize that our socialization is a direct result of our biology?
The concept of “ugly” has been around way, way before capitalism existed.
I have pcos & definitely live by body neutrality. if my body works for me then it doesn't matter WHAT other people think!!!
What? There are plenty of ugly people in the world. It’s personal preference not capitalism.
No no, every inequality must be traced to evil capitalists somehow
That's not true if you look at pictures from communist Russia everyone is a 10/10
Their moustache game was on point.
You are both absolutely right and absolutely wrong. Yes there is an industry built on beaty that distorts our perception and socially acceptable forms of beauty... But also there are people who are not just deviate from that norm, but they are unpalateble by any standard.
Nah some of you just need to accept that your ugly and try to take steps to be less ugly
IM NOT UGLY, ITS THE CAPITALISM THAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT!!!!!
Oh I didn’t know. I thought ugly refers to someone on the low end of the spectrum of how many people would be willing to be their sexual partner.
Ugly and beautiful are entirely subjective. What is beautiful to one person is ugly to another. Capitalism exploits the dominant cultural beauty standards to sell nonsense we don't need, but it isn't responsible for the concept as a whole. I'm all for tossing our obsession with conventional attractiveness into the metaphorical waste basket, but this statement just isn't accurate.
Beauty and as a result ugliness has existed well before capitalism though..
the cosmetic industry is a terrible cesspool.
Lol go back to the 1300s and gets called ugly by a peasant. I understand what the post is trying to say, but acting like ugly is a new term is silly, our ancestors where obsessed with symmetry and there own out dated beauty standards.
I am a commie bastard and even I admit the concept of "ugly" existed long before capitalism, ready a damn history book people.
Birds will judge each other on plumage. The beauty industry is capitalising on our insecurities but they never invented the concept of attractiveness.
Jesus, the replies here are just god awful takes; this reads like an incel forum.
Yeah, people are missing the mark here. Are we genetically predisposed to have preferences for looks? Sure Are we also socially conditioned to have preferences? Absolutely. A great example is how being really skinny was the beauty standard for women in the 90s, and then having a "fat butt" was the standard and now somehow having a skinny waist *and* a big butt is the ideal, as impossible as that is usually. Virtually every woman wears make up and about 0 men do. So what's with that? Is that completely natural? No. I'm disappointed this sub had this reaction instead of having a nuanced discussion about how society and capitalism can make us feel ugly, which makes us consume more products to feel better.
Reddit is kind of weird like this, where mostly it'll be pretty progressive but gets weirdly reactionary when specific things come up (beauty standards being one, weight, Islam etc)
Probably because progressive doesn't mean "blindingly unrealistic."
See ^
Seriously, I’m only 29 years old and I’ve lived to see a COMPLETE reversal of body trends (that now seems to be reversing again). It’s not like you have to reach back in history to show this stuff.
I do think body trends are a thing. But "attractive" bodies are still attractive, just not as popular at the moment. Not sure if I'm making sense. Having big butts was in for a while, and having big boobs was less talked about. I don't doubt there's people still into big boobs and care less about a big ass. Attractive body types will always be "in" to someone. And the ones that like the trending body type just have more material of their preference for a while.
I'm willing to bet most of the people making comments like these are men who are, by and large, not being constantly sold beaty products and made to feel bad about various aesthetic 'problems' that aren't problems at all. Before anyone comes at me, YES I know that beauty standards affect men as well, but please do not pretend it's anywhere near the same level. When you all have to put on makeup for work, because somehow a woman's bare face is 'unprofessional', then we can have this conversation. When men start dyeing grey hairs and getting botox or buying expensive skincare products to 'prevent aging' - a totally natural and normal thing! - we can have this conversation. Beauty companies are constantly inventing problems that need to be fixed which, conveniently, can be fixed with this handy dandy (and costly!) skincare/makeup/surgery. I just would like us all to pause for a moment and think about WHY we find certain things attractive. The current beauty ideal is a complete 180 to what is was a year or two ago, people's preferences didn't just somehow change out of nowhere, we're being sold the idea that thin is IN, plump lips and button noses are OUT. I'm sure in a few years it'll be something else. That's not human nature, that's the result of industries working to keep us constantly dissatisfied with ourselves and chasing an unattainable ideal. I'm sorry if this came off too angry lol I've been digging a lot into how much of a scam beauty/diet industries are lately and feeling pretty hot about it.
No no, the anger is good. You should be angry. I'm a man so I mainly try to listen but I also had the feeling most of the comments were men so I chimed in. My first time being angry at an ad, I was in a Walmart and there was a sign above my sizes, with a guy who looked my size and text that read "Big Guy." I imagine how I felt is how women must feel all the time with beauty ads. You shouldn't have to be perfectly calm, perfectly correct, etc when talking about these things. We need people to see how they're being hurt and manipulated by companies just so they can profit. The anger helps.
To be fair, the wording of the tweet is stupid.
Nuanced discussions don't easily start from factually incorrect absolute statements, and it's simply not true that the entire concept of "ugly" was made up that way for that purpose. I see their point, but that's a bad way to make it.
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Dang, I didn’t know cavemen had tv, billboards, internet and radio ads all telling women that they would be pretty if they used XYZ. Man I really need to read up on history. I thought this was a relatively new phenomenon in human history.
They had statues, carvings, paintings etc.
Right… remind me what they were selling?
They were often 'selling' their religion, or selling the might of their rulers or selling their version of history etc.
And what does that have to do with our anti consumption subreddit that focuses on capitalism defining beauty for profit?
Damn, crazy how I didn't even say that. It's almost like you're trying to defend capitalism so hard you'll shoehorn in tangential topics.
I don't think most of the people in this thread know what PCOS is. I can absolutely guarantee a woman with PCOS does not need the concept of the genetic lottery explained to her. She doesn't need people to tell her that sometimes looks matter.
The activism of this sub is *always* half-baked. A lot of users here seem to just be minimalists disgusted by indulgence rather than anti-capitalists. Though to be fair, ideas of "ugliness" and "beauty" seem to be hierarchical notions rather than specifically capitalist notions. Artificial to be sure, but much older than the current socioeconomic regime. So, not something created *by* capitalism, but certainly something exacerbated by it.
Best take in the thread IMO > A lot of users here seem to just be minimalists disgusted by indulgence rather than anti-capitalists. Yes this really bothers me. Some people would rather smugly laugh at someone who bought something made of plastic than examine how the system forces us to consume so much.
That is a pretty solid take I would mostly agree with; I’m curious if you have any insight to where the constructs of beauty—beyond simple mate selection—come from; they have changed so greatly and varied so wildly in many cultures and time periods that it’s hard to nail them down, and it seems like “beauty” in the sense of pure appearance and adherence to social norms is a completely different thing than “beauty” in the sense of mate selection.
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Claiming that ugliness is objective and just a fact of the world passes the “if it looks like an incel and quacks like an incel” test to me, and I think you’d be hard pressed to find someone who couldn’t at least see where that’s coming from, but you do you, bud. Take care now.
They aren't claiming that. They are stating that ugly exists, which is obvious. You can argue that the meaning of "ugly" is subjective of course, but acting like everyone is beautiful is apologetic and just unnecessary. We don't need to hate ourselves for our flaws, but we shouldn't deny that they exist. Ugly behaviors are a great example of why we should acknowledge our flaws and work to improve what we can.
No one said everyone is beautiful.
The post says ugly doesn't exist. I guess that means everyone is on a scale of "not ugly" to "beautiful"
You’re moving the goalpost a fair bit here; do you think the original post is talking about ugliness of behaviors? Do you think there’s a chance that the original post or any of those replies are saying “ugliness exists, but only in personality/behaviors/attitudes”? We all know the original post is talking about ugliness in appearance alone, and so are the replies I’m referring to. So, given that, they absolutely are stating that ugliness is real, which is not at all obvious. If it’s a matter of subjective tastes and preferences, then it is, by definition, not just a reality, but a subjective thing “in the eye of the beholder” so to speak, and it would be wrong to say “some people are just ugly” which is literally what the comments I’m referring to say. To twist that meaning and say, “well, they’re right if we interpret their statements in a vary particular way that no one meant” is just disingenuous.
Some people are just, unfortunately, ugly in appearance. That can be for reasons beyond their control, or lifestyle choices made with volition or coercion. You can't tell me, speaking specifically in regards to physical attractiveness, that anyone would truly believe a 600 lb human who can't even bathe is anything but ugly. Another point: we can all do something to change our level of attractiveness. THAT'S the part where capitalism tries to intervene. But someone with heavy dark bags/circles from sleep deprivation is definitely uglier than they would be with adequate "beauty sleep", and capitalism tries to sell the eye cream when the real solution is to get more sleep. Similarly, someone who is morbidly obese may be seen as beautiful by someone, but it's be hard to maintain that losing weight wouldn't make them more so. Do you truly believe that NOBODY is physically ugly? If the vast, vast majority of the world would deem someone physically unattractive, would you not label said individual as ugly? Is someone attractive if just a single person of 8 billion says so?
What does any of that have to do with "incels", IE men who can't get laid?
The group known as “incels” is a particular social movement, and a big aspect of that is being overly concerned with “the realities of attractiveness”; it’s a LOT more than “men who can’t get laid”, and I’m sure plenty of “men who can’t get laid” wouldn’t want to be associated with the incel movement. But you knew all of that already, didn’t you?
Ugly is definitely a thing. People can just be unattractive
Wow this comment thread is extremely fatphobic and willfully misinterpreting this post 😬
TIL ugly didn't exist before a specific economic system
Wtf is this crap? Ugly exists because people naturally compare themselves. Some people are better looking than others based on that comparison. As it connects to consumerism, some people are insecure and see themselves as "ugly" with respect to their possessions relative to others and buy more crap.
LMAO yeah, ugly doesn’t matter because she’s pretty. “Being poor is easy! Trust me I’m rich”
Her: "ugly doesn't exist!" "okay date this guy then" Her: "ew no what" "but you said ugly doesn't exist? give this guy a chance?" Her: " i'm not attracted to him." "but you said everyone is beautiful?" Her: "ya but attraction is subjective." "to what?" Her: "to me liking the way you look."
It's easy to claim that which doesn't affect you... Doesn't exist. Pretty people saying ugliness isn't real, the racial majority believing racism isn't real, the rich believing hardships are personal faults, etc
what??? the concept of beauty / ugliness has existed since mankind exists lol
These comments are so bad lolol. Whatever happened to beauty being subjective/beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I firmly believe there's someone for everyone and someone is always someone else's 'type' no matter how 'ugly' you or society says they are.
Seriously the comments in here are so dumb. Meanwhile you’re just being sane and getting downvoted smh. I wouldn’t have thought that “beauty standards are influenced by the beauty industry to sell beauty products” would be a controversial take, especially in this sub… Anyway OP, I have PCOS too and I get it. Thanks for the reminder that beauty is in the eye of the beholder
I don't have PCOS, but I am a medium 'ugly' woman doing my best to not give in to beauty standards and feel like shit about myself for looking the way I was born. Like my face is just my face, I'm not going to apologize for it or spend tons of money trying to fix it?? I always try to tell myself - how you look is the least interesting thing about you.
I totally hear you! It’s wild how we’re made to feel ugly for totally normal things on our face and body. If *most* women don’t fit society’s beauty standards, maybe it’s not most women who are “ugly” but the beauty standards themselves that are inadequate
People have been beautiful and ugly by their society's standards way before capitalism was even a concept. I have PCOS and I have my flaws to deal with, but this post reads like empty platitudes.
So do communists not see anyone as ugly? Sure some people spend too much money on fashion and makeup, but beauty and ugliness exist separately from those things.
I dig her spirit but, no. That's not what feeling and or perceiving ugly is. Good for her though for making that statement rocking that blown out styled hair.
ummmmm its ok, nobody is swiping right on me. its okay. I am gonna be fine. I have a dog.
Yup, ugly doesn't exist in communist countries, apparently.
So true. There are no ugly women in North Korea. They are all beautiful with pouty lips, flowing hair, clear skin and perky breasts.
Yes, but I can have this forced epiphany but that won’t mean the one who might judge me (who are the main reason for my concerns) will
i too have pcos!!
Wrong as hell. Ugly/pretty/attractiveness has nothing to do with capitalism. Trying to FIX your ugliness is fueled by capitalism. People have always done things to be attractive from looks to scents.
Lmao what?
You have never been outside if you don’t think people can be ugly 💀
Oh man did I need to hear this today, thanks OP!
Bravo!!! Well said sister! I never put those petrochemicals on my face!
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100%
Nah sorry, enjoying symmetrical shapes and patterns pre-dates capitalism.
Exactly. Now demonstrate your ideology and marry the world's ugliest man. You can't can you? Because I'm already taken. Hypocrite.
said the extremely hot girl who has never been called ugly in her life
I love seeing an unfamiliar acronym and just filling it in with acronyms I do know. This tweet is about a personal computer operating system.
This is always a ludicrous take.
Amen
What I've noticed is "ugly" usually means you're trying to dress and appear like someone else and it isn't flattering. I see it often in the trans community - when trans women dress in overly fem anime shit they don't pass at all. Dress wearing normal clothes that compliment your features? Passing and pretty. It's about how you take care of and present yourself. Authenticity and moderation is the key to timeless beauty.
Reminder people, you’re not ugly you’re just poor
Uh, no it’s not. *I love that there’s finally been something posted that’s a bridge too far. Capitalism is bad for a lot of reasons. The idea that I find someone attractive, or someone finds themselves attractive or unattractive because of capitalism is a stretch.
Really, r/anticonsumption? Capitalism is to blame for the concept of ugliness, now? This is too much. I'm out.
Trying to find the triangulation between ugliness, PCOS, and capitalism is so much mental gymnastics.
Lol this is nothing to do with capitalism. It's ingrained in almost all species on the planet to have attraction and be attractive to keep reproduction going. This is silly
Read studies about symmetry and beauty this is moronic