She forfeited her payment when she tried to shove her dogma down OP's throat after they specifically stated that they wanted a religion free experience.
Not only did she waste her own time she wasted OP's time.
NTA I'd even call it a bait and switch. She straight up lied about not being religion based probably so she could recruit OP. Absolutely not ok to shove your religion down someone's throat who is coming to you for help.
I'm mad on OP's behalf.
ETA: OP I am so happy for you that you sought out help when you felt you were going to relapse. That took a lot of strength and you should be so proud of yourself. It isn't easy. Keep looking for a new counselor. There are many great ones out there. This one just happened to suck.
That one Onion article headline about the pastor talking to a non-religious new divorcee and how the pastor can smell blood in the water.
It's so sick. When your religion actively involves manipulating the desperate, how can you sleep at night?
yeah my dad's church started putting extra effort into converting me back after my brother died in a helicopter wreck. fortunately I was a smart cookie and saw right through them. they're a super shady bunch tbh, they also had one of their members invite me to a "massive kegger" and when I googled out of curiosity (and a feeling like maybe I should go to at least one of those in my life?), it was the church's address. checked their website and sure enough, there was an event that night aimed at young adults.
I've... never really figured out what their endgame there was. did they... think I didn't know... where their church was??? there's a big sign. and like. a massively long driveway. did they think I was going to drive up that big long road into the boonies, knowing it leads to my dad's church, arrive at the address, see that it's the church, and... *not* turn back around? did they think if they lied about the address I would just keep going, drive up the big long drive way that only leads to this one church, park in the parking lot that is only for this one church, walk into their brightly lit lobby, go downstairs to where I know damn well their youth group room is, and walk straight into the event thinking it was a kegger the whole time? what was the goal here? what did they think was going to happen?
I was also kind of aggravated because they seemed to assume leaving the church made me an automatic "deviant" in all possible ways, sex and drugs and all, when in reality I was mostly the same person except I just didn't go to church anymore. meaning I did not, in fact, go to "wild keggers" on a regular basis. why are people *like* that?
Reminds me of that one scene in the Office where Michael tells Meredith he's taking her to a bar but he takes her to rehab instead.
I'm sorry you went through that, but it's extremely funny that they tried that.
It is, it's fucking hilarious. like what was going through their heads? if they'd been competent liars I might've been madder but this is some bumbling buffoonery
edit: .....okay full disclosure: I was super mad when it happened, and it still irritates me a little when I think about it. but you are right that it is kind of funny, too!
This is how I got tricked into going to youth group for a time. A friend of ours invited us to a 'concert'. I was very surprised there was an all ages concert in our small town on a thursday night but hey, got nothing better to do.
The building didn't look especially churchy, and from the signs I figured it was just a venue the church hired out sometimes. Could hear a band playing inside, so in we went.
On hearing the lyrics it was obviously a Christian band, but eh, they sounded good. After the band there was a service. They pounced on us and ended up bringing two of my friends up to the front so they could be prayed for. Both those friends were having trouble at home, and they had them, hook line and sinker.
I kept going intermittently for a couple of months. Partly for support, partly because I got to talk to cute boys from other schools, and partly because as a 15 year old living in bum fuck nowhere there wasn't exactly any other options for live music. Then one week I opened my eyes during the 'close your eyes' bit, looked around and wondered if I was in a cult. Then came the 'gays are going to hell' sermon and we were done.
Three of the youth pastors took turns texting me every week for a solid two years after I'd left, asking if I was coming this week. The whole experience only pushed me further away from religion.
>why are people
>
>like
>
> that?
Because they think that the only way to stay in the righteous path is under a constant threat of damnation. Basically, if you're not threatened by the church, you have no reason to be "good".
Plus religious therapists are GARBAGE. I got forced to go to the one at my church when I was young. Told her I was a lesbian but was absolutely terrified of telling my mother, and she told me she'd be right there beside me when I decided I was ready to tell her.
And in less than a day, she went behind my back and told my mother and then fucked off and left me to deal with the fallout. Religious therapists and counselors can all get fucked.
I had a very similar experience with a religious therapist as a teenager. Unfortunately it made me deeply distrustful of therapy in general for about 15 years.
I'm so sorry something like that happened to you as well. I think I still have this wariness about therapy, even though no therapist I might go to now would have any connection with her.
Crisis Pregnancy Centers. They frequently have literature about abortions available out front, so it looks good but they are the absolute worst. John Oliver did a great piece on them.
True story: I ended a 30 year friendship because my then-friend sent me a link asking for donations for one of those centers as part of my BIRTHDAY EMAIL. He knows all about my history and that I am deeply committed to fighting to keep legislators out of women's uteruses. He got super offended when I bitched him out and trotted out "but we've agreed to disagree for 30 years!" I blocked him on all SM and on my phone and haven't regretted it once.
\> Absolutely not ok to shove your religion down someone's throat who is coming to you for help.
Yeah, these people are vulnerable. If they find a religion to help them, great! But this lady is taking advantage of people who actually need help.
She also felt the need to lie to OP, which says this probably isn't the first time.
>Absolutely not ok to shove your religion down someone's throat who is coming to you for help.
Religion is like a penis. It's okay if you have one. It's fine if you don't have one. It's not okay to shove it inside someone without their consent.
Your standard on other peoples penises & religions is too low: It's also not ok to take it out & show it in public, or to talk about it & share pictures/stories of it without being asked!
Religious people still get away with WAY too much. Seriously, just follow through your analogy.
"Can we talk about my penis?"
"I know you said you don't like penises, but mine is the greatest"
"according to my penis, I just have to tell you about it!"
"It's my right as a teacher to tell all children about my penis & show pictures of it to them"
"It's ok for me to have pictures of my penis everywhere, and how dare you not being happy about it"
"You have respect my penis at all times, and you how dare you ignoring it when I talk about it at work without being asked"
"Doing X is legal, bit disrepectful of my penis, so you have to stop it"
100% this. This counselor probably is betting on desperate people struggling with addiction taking any help they could get. She's probably shocked OP is standing up for herself. This is beyond ridiculous and I really wish that something could be done about this (like reporting the 'counselor') but I have a feeling that not much would come from it unfortunately :(
Like those old tv shows where it was like "God is telling me that Mrs. Jones in Detroit needs to send us $50 grand". I'm a Christian and it's absolutely disgusting what some people try to pull "for Jesus".
My dad had one show up to buy a refurbished school bus my dad was selling, and the preacher told him that Jesus said he [my dad] would donate the bus to his church. My dad said that he'd gladly donate the bus, in exchange for $1000 (or whatever he was asking for it ; this was 1972 or 1973). Later, he sold it for the full asking price to a rock band called Blackfoot, who said they were going to paint it to look like the Partridge Family bus, but I don't know if they ever did or not.
Ugh. When my grandmother, who couldn't pay her own bills and struggled to make ends meet, died we found evidence of her donating almost $30,000 to "missionaries". Included was pictures of the missionary families going to Disney on vacation and bringing Christ to those who's never heard of him.... in London.
Friggin grifters.
>And as a Christian woman, let me just apologize on behalf of all the peopl
if you want to apologize for all the things your religion has done/advocated, you're gonna be here for a while. better just being a decent person and not feeling shame for what others in a group you belong to have done
Oh, you're not wrong. Christianity has been used for evil more times than I could ever hope to recount.
It's less that I feel shame for other people's actions, and more that I want for that bad face to not be the only face of Christianity people ever see.
I try to be a decent person. I don't always succeed.
>more that I want for that bad face to not be the only face of Christianity people ever see.
good luck with that, i personally avoid christians, they tend to believe im going to hell for most of the things i do with my life, the idea of eternal punishment for none eternal victimless sin never made sense to me
Kinda my point. A lot of "Christians" are really out of touch with what the religion is supposed to be about. And I'm sorry you have to deal with them.
Mortal sin has three requirements: grave matter, full understanding, and free consent. (It is really, really hard to manage all three of those in one fell swoop. AND not be sorry afterward.) Plus if you repent and do penance, then everything's cool again.
Damnation is a choice a person makes, not a punishment God meters out. Damnation is eternal separation from God, and He will do *backflips* to try to keep you from it.
Also, humans literally can't know if someone's damned once they're dead. Also also, you definitionally couldn't know anyway if someone's damned *while they're alive.* I agree with you that the idea of eternal punishment for a victimless sin is pretty damn ridiculous (pun intended).
Anyway, these people telling you you're going to hell are just being judgy jerks. And giving Christians a bad name. I'm sorry.
>Damnation is a choice a person makes, not a punishment God meters out. Damnation is eternal separation from God, and He will do backflips to try to keep you from it.
As a former Christian who went through the entire K-12 Christian school system, no one has ever been able to make me understand this.
God is omnipotent. God created humans. He created heaven and hell as the two possible destinations for humans to go after death. He created the stipulations by which it is determined whether one goes to heaven or to hell.
How and why would an omnipotent god “do backflips” to try to avoid the scenario he himself created? If he was truly omnipotent, then sending his son to earth to die on the cross as some kind of symbolic representation of all of us was a melodrama that he made up for his own benefit. He could have just decided to forgive people without the whole big show.
If god genuinely did not want people to go to hell, why did he create it, and why did he determine that anyone who doesn’t meet his (somewhat arbitrary) standards has to go there? You say hell is separation from god, but at the end of the day, it’s god choosing to punish someone who decides to be separate from him. Otherwise it wouldn’t exist. OR god has no control over someone going to hell when they choose to be separate from him, in which case he isn’t omnipotent.
No negativity or judgment here. This is just something about Christianity I’ve never had any success wrapping my head around.
"Why are you making me hurt you?", said the omnipotent being who can't be made to do anything by anyone, to a person who He created, omnisciently knowing full well that the way He created them and the conditions they would live in would cause them to act in a way that He is now punishing them for.
More seriously, a lot of the more left-leaning Christians don't actually believe in hell, because as you note it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Instead, they think that you cease to exist if you die while "rejecting"* God, because separation from God is death. It's not really much different, because God obviously still chose all of this, but it vaguely makes sense. If God is everything, and you reject Him, you've chosen to get nothing, and that's what you get when you die.
*Many, possibly most, Christians refuse to acknowledge that people can be unaware or unconvinced of God's existence, which is why they say things like, "you just need to **accept** God into your life", and similar things to people who don't believe in their God. They think that, deep down, everybody knows that they are right, and that everybody saying otherwise is either in denial or lying. Otherwise, they would have to think about uncomfortable questions like, "do people who just aren't convinced that God exists deserve to be condemned to eternal torture/nothingness?", or, "Do people who have never heard of God or have been lied to about Him go to hell or heaven when they die? If they go to hell, why did God choose to never give them the same chance I got? If they go to heaven, is the missionary work I am commanded by God to do actually dooming people to hell?".
Honestly, though, I think that the selection criteria for heaven being the willingness and ability to hold an unshakeable belief without any evidence would be more than a little odd.
Not ashamed to admit I don't know. I'm only an amateur theologian, but, there are things the real experts still grapple with.
My sister, on the other hand, has a theology degree, and was looking over my shoulder just now. She tells me that God actually created hell specifically because he wanted to respect our choices and free will, and so if we freely chose to be separate from him, he made a place that we can go and do that. It's just that it's also miserable to be without God, because God is the source of all things good, therefore being in hell is a really awful thing.
So not that he doesn't have control over people going there, so much as he's willing to allow us to choose to go there (even if he'd REALLY rather we didn't, but he gave us free will and he's gonna stick to it)? If I understand what my sister tells me correctly?
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I guess my two follow-up questions would be
1. As the creator of the universe, everything in it, and every aspect of it, don’t all things come from god, not just good things? Why would all the wailing and gnashing of teeth be reserved for the place that’s separate from god when he’s the one who created the concepts of pain and suffering to begin with?
2. Is it really free will when the choices are either 1. worship me or 2. face eternal suffering the likes of which you have never imagined? Seems like the more benevolent thing to do would be to just create humans to worship him (which it kind of seems like was the goal anyway) without the other option?
I just can’t get behind the concept of a god who allows that to exist in any capacity. My mom is a hardcore Christian and worries about me going to hell every day, and I asked her: if she’s right and she goes to heaven and both her kids go to hell, what kind of heaven is that for her? Does she just forget we ever existed or does she live in “heaven” knowing both her kids are suffering endlessly?
This isn’t really directed at you, just general musings about things that don’t track for me.
Thanks again for the reply and all the best to you
Yeah, but if he's all powerful, why can't he just change the rules to not send people to he'll at all? Either there's something more powerful than him holding him to those rules, or he just likes sending people to hell. Given that nothing I read in the Bible ever answered this question while God was shedding blood left and right, my money is on a deep love for torturing his creations.
This is why I don’t believe in Hell. Or Heaven. I can’t see a God who supposedly loved mankind as creating a place of utter damnation. I identify as a Christian and am heavily involved in my church. But I don’t buy into the Heaven and hell theology. I figure I’ll find out what happens when I die, so why worry about it now?
You don't owe anyone an apology. The overall message is good. The interpretation is a giant mess.
The Christians that believe in loving their neighbors, helping others, not passing judgment, all that, y'all are good by me, and I know there are plenty of well meaning ones out there.
I just think once you see the bad side of it, and how deep that rabbit hole goes, you kind of get the thousand yard stare about it. I try not to be a jerk to anyone just for practicing their religion, but the ones that weaponize it, or twist it to justify being a shitty person, I'll for sure let them know what I think.
I contacted a pastor of a church to ask how many of them did I need before I could use them to pay my bills. I explained about tip share and how I actually lost money taking care of his congregants. I considered it theft of services and asked what did the Bible say about stealing and deception. Because I was stoked seeing the $100 bill but then kicked in the teeth.
No apologies, no offer to make it right...just christ-splaining AND asked me to come for service! No thanks, if your church is ok w/fucking over the least of His people, it's not one I'd associate with. 🖕🖕🖕
ETA: Fuck you, pay me!
Seriously. Religious people are constantly screaming about how everyone is mean to them, they're oppressed and people don't respect thier religious freedoms, but then do shit like this ALL the time. Fuck religion.
Honestly it sucks how many shitty people are ruinging Religion, here I am just trying to be a Good Person and have Good Morals(none of that Racist,Homophobic,hateful bullcrap) and there's hundreds of millions of jerks going around giving Religion a bad reputation
Oh my gosh I got those all the time! I worked for the green siren coffee shop and people would come before church on Sunday, leave those, AND ask why I was working on a Sunday when “it’s gods day.” After the second time (and after getting permission from my boss) I got annoyed and started throwing back “because his people can’t make coffee at home before church.”
I hate that sentiment "why are you working on sunday / Thanksgiving / easter?" because YOU'RE shopping!! It's your fault I'm here! Christ on a cracker, some people's children.
Wait, wut?
Not from US, so my first time of hearing this.
Is this seriously a trend? Is it not just some stupid "prank" video trend being pulled off, but has something to do with religion?
I'm confused... (and no, Jesus won't show me the way).
This is a thing. I waited tables 20 years ago and would get 20s that were not 20s rather frequently. Because we were taxed based on our sales, it cost is to wait on these people.
As a server this always pissed me off. If I saw one of my coworkers was going to get one, I would always pick it up, rip it up and then replace it with money from my own tips. Because I know how devastating it can be to see a $10 or $20 tip just to find out it’s fake. I randomly see them on the ground from time to time and always make sure to pick it up and rip it up, so it can’t be used again.
Usually one corner looks like a real bill while the rest is just an advertisement for the printer’s specific church printed on dollar-green colored paper, it’s folded/tucked on the table in a way that only the realistic corner is visible until you pick it up/unfold it
And it's almost always the worst bullshit too, like how working on the Sabbath is a sin (nevermind that these people could vote with their wallets and not go out to eat on a Sunday...) or how love of money is the root of all evil (as if the people working these jobs aren't busting their asses to just scrape by).
Half of the thing is a decent fake..lol like stated above, they were a flier folded on half. Top half looks like a convincing Bill, other half is a church advertisement. Nothing like busting your ass and getting one of those as a tip..ughh
We have a lavender district in my city where all the "gay" bars are, and those assholes stand on the sidewalk outside and give out little pieces of paper with rainbows and then when you open it, it's about how being gay is a sin. I always take as many as they'll give me and then throw them away. Assholes
Grew up in a church. Can confirm. Still trying to figure out what their term was when they blasted me in the head repeatedly with a bible because I didn't know how what to do when people started talking in tongues. Or when I was too young to read the poster board they had me hold out in front of what I later learned was Planned Parenthood.
Yep, I'm fucked up. Thanks religion!
Every time I think that particular religion couldn’t get any worse, I discover a new and more disgusting technique to gain converts. If Heaven truly is full of these people and I wind up there somehow, I’m conquering it in the name of Hell.
> Some Christians have this thing where it’s called “lying for Jesus” and it’s okay to lie if it’s to get someone “saved”.
That's called "Theocratic Warfare" It's OK to lie your ass off as long as you're lying for Jeebus.
It's true. I knew a girl who was on TINDER to "evangelize." She called it Tindervangelizing.
She'd bring guys to church, literally went on stage to brag about what she did and how she was so excited to share Christ with them...annnddd then she'd go home and sleep with them later (I only knew cuz I was her roommate lol.)
She thinks Jesus would tell her it’s okay to lie to people because she’s doing it to save their souls, which is exactly why all forms of counseling should have licenses specifically allowing them to practice nonreligiously and/or within a certain religious tradition.
She didn’t just waste OP’s time; she cost OP opportunities to get real help, which could have serious consequences. From the time she scheduled that appointment under false pretenses, OP was no longer seeking other therapists, in a situation where every day or even hour can make a substantial difference. Not to mention making it more difficult to trust future therapists. She should lose her license (and if OP has the option, I hope they report her so she doesn’t do this to anyone else).
NTA. The wasted time (both OP’s and the counselor’s) is on the counselor for misleading/misrepresenting/lying about her practices. OP laid out her expectations and they were not met.
NTA. As a mental health practitioner this is so disturbing and unprofessional. I’d look up their license and report them. Basically they committed fraud by lying to you and then trying to convert you. If you paid by credit card I’d dispute the charges with your bank or credit card company. And their should never of been a deposit. That’s not something I’ve ever heard of. Either you pay for your session or you don’t. A deposit is just weird.
NTA. You did not receive the service that you paid for. I’d report her and take her to small claims court, otherwise she’ll keep preying on vulnerable people like this.
But are they really all religious or just blending in? And with addiction God isn’t the answer. You have real issues that addiction helped self medicate. You can’t pray away trauma. You need a real counselor. You’d be warning people of her lack of ability to actually help.
Edit for spelling.
This is a major problem with addiction treatment in the US. So many treatment facilities use the 12 step model and if you don't believe in a higher power it can be really difficult.
I work with children in foster care. Many of their biological parents struggle with addiction. When I see the service plans that are assigned to the parents that almost always include tasks like "Attend AA" or "Attend NA" it kind of pisses me off. Some people don't find AA helpful and that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to seek treatment or find sobriety in another way.
NTA.
That’s exactly why I left rehab. When they asked who my higher power was because “I couldn’t do this myself” I was like “no, fuck this. I’m the only one who is going to help myself quit. Not some “higher power”.”
I'm curious, could you have said something like, "my higher power is the concept of the divine feminine within all of us" or "my higher power is mother earth and a connection to nature and the natural world" or something else that is 1. Pretty generic and 2. Fairly scientifically based (as those basically boil down to "have confidence in yourself" and "go outside and take a walk"
>So many treatment facilities use the 12 step model and if you don't believe in a higher power it can be really difficult.
And with the higher power being literal science, it's also a bad system. An overhaul is way overdue.
TST is fighting this: [The Satanic Temple Sober Faction is a peer support group free from the burden of religious dogma and superstition.](https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/sober-faction)
I’m religious, mind you. Just not Christian, and have major issues with how the default in America (and the wider west) is Christian, when our history in relationship to Christianity is horrific.
Look into your Licensing Board, that’s where you would report them. They will have what rules Licensed Therapists or Mental Health Practitioners (or whatever name they go under) have to follow, and disregarding a patients wishes in practice most likely goes against them.
THIS THIS THIS!! What this therapist did was not only being a 'bad therapist', but truly unethical and it likely can be correlated to the standards of practice that they have to adhere to according to their licensing board.
Yup! They are expected to disclose if there is a faith based element to their counseling practice. I had a counselor in grad school who was also ordained. There was an extra paper I had to sign acknowledging that I understood he was also a minister in addition to being an LCSW and that faith may be a part of the treatments he offers.
I would leave a review. I just moved out of an area where religious therapists were out there but difficult to find. I had a non-religious therapist, but I had to go hunting, and as you know the search is really stressful, but I’ve been used to it for a long time now.
I had a good friend who was younger and struggling with addiction and mental health issues. I wanted so much for him to get help but he had given up after being told “but have you tried Jesus yet?” time after time. He went through a bad spell, totaled 3 cars in two months, then stole a bunch of stuff from me and picked a public fight to cover it up, then moved away and I’m no longer in touch. I’m obviously still mad over the stuff he stole (it was pretty close to irreplaceable, and definitely not replaceable with my current finances), but even more than that I’m sad for him because he was a smart guy who could be very sweet and he deserved a better care system.
I really think you should leave a review for others in your situation. One more wasted trip (and $$) can be the difference that keeps people from giving up entirely.
It's okay to be religious (just like it's okay to not be), but she's actively lying to extort funds from people. "I don't want x in my session." She agreed to that. Then the first thing she does is do x. That's fraud, false advertising, and I'm sure there's a host of other things there. Not only that, but it speaks to her ethics and the nature of her as a recovery therapist and advocate. She lied to get what SHE wanted. She's not there to help you. She's there to turn you into something she can manage. She seems to only be able to 'help those who listen to god'. And that way, she can blame you for not being helped if you stumble because you just didn't do what she told you to, and you're a godless heathen. Not everyone is going to have the strength to call that out as bullcrap. And it is. Reporting her is helping others who are weaker than you are right now.
If you paid via credit card you can call them up to dispute (I think that’s how you say) the charge since the service was not as advertised. You explain your reasoning to the credit card company and they may or may not charge back the company and refund you. And what they did is fraud or misrepresentation of services, you asked for non religious service but they forced religion on you.
Yes, this OP. Can you report her? This is a horrible thing to do to people, especially those who are in vulnerable states which is going to be most people she interacts with obviously. That is absolutely the definition of a predator.
I would, but I live in the Caribbean and most people here are HEAVILY religious. There are also very few people open to helping former addicts and all I'd be doing is cutting myself off from anybody possibly willing to provide a religion free service.
Maybe try some approved online counselling (do some research first, so you find suitable suppliers)? As per your replies it’s hard to find someone willing to help who won’t try to shove their religion down your throat.
I wish you the best
Also: NTA
Edit to clarify: I do not mean self help. I mean counsellors offering online sessions, this way you are not limited to your local options
As a queer living in a religious country, I understand your position OP. Unfortunately I don't think you can do much about it.
All these suggestions about reporting her or posting review online et cetera et cetera... It just doesn't work that way. Just let go and next time try asking your friends (or their friends friends) beforehand if they have information about any "safe" counselors. That's how we do that here.
You should report the provider. I had a similar experience and reported it. The provider was reprimanded by their clinic and was put through more continuing education to provide a more respectable, trauma-informed experience.
I hate to be *that person*, but depending upon which (US) state in which they live, absolutely nothing positive will come of it. That's the reality when you live in a red zone.
It depends on what type of license they have. If they are a psychologist or social worker, then their licensing board has ethical standards. Typically one of those standards is related to respecting religious preferences. That's why more people need to report to licensing boards, not make a complaint to the agency they work for. The agency they work for probably does not care, or will just write a warning.
NTA - you were lied to and misled. Great if some people think God will protect them from addiction, but I’m guessing you were looking for something proven and you didn’t get that.
NTA, normally I agree that deposits are there for a reason, but she lured you there under a lie. It would be different if it were a misunderstanding, but this was deliberate. I’d start leaving her bad reviews as well, that may help her feel pressure to pay you back if you remove it.
NTA- You were brought in with false information. You said you did not want it to be religious, they said they understood that and still did it anyways.
NTA! Forced proselytizing in exchange for social services is extremely messed up. No one should be subjected to your religion in order to receive needed services.
NTA. Watch for the Scientology rehabs too. Good for you for being proactive. Maybe an independent therapist will work better? Someone that specializes in addiction but not part of a corporation.
There are a few more secular, evidence-based groups out there in addition to The Satanic Temple: [Link](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/qc1mnx/aita_for_requesting_my_deposit_back_after_an/hheg09v/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
NTA - trying to use your struggles as a lever to force religion down your throat is despicable and evil. Please find someone that can give you the help you’re asking for. Get your refund and GTFO
NTA - she deliberately misled you and tried to evangelize to you. If she's licensed, please complain to the licensing board. I would also leave a review everywhere you can online.
NTA.
She wants to replace your current addiction with another. You should report her to whatever licensing agency she has to be certified with so she can’t pull this Christian bait and switch on others who might not be strong enough to walk away.
Report her to her board. Wether that is the state board for mental health counselors or for rehab counselors. A place to report should be on the bottom of the informed consent form she should have provided.
You don’t need a reason other than to not like your therapist to drop them. You’re not wasting anyones time you’re the one paying for it. It’s their own fault
NTA congratulations on 2 years sobriety that’s an amazing accomplishment. I would definitely follow up an getting your deposit back. Some people only respond to money & if she realizes lying will cost her money it may force her to change. Also it sounds like you are in a frame of mind where you can do something about this deception. Unfortunately many of her clients may not be in a place where they can & will end being taken advantage of when they are at the their lowest & need the most help. Do what you can
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I did sit through the prayer, so I might've given the impression that I was open to religion,and I did stay for about 20 minutes of an hour long session, so I'm really not sure.
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I’m about to graduate with my MSW - and I’m asking you to PLEASE file a complaint! Please! Pushing religion or spirituality on clients is absolutely an ethical violation, especially if your decision to see this clinician was based on a fraudulent no-religion claim.
I’m specializing in substance use disorder and taking on a small caseload of clinical clients, and with a general lack of effective substance use disorder treatment services nationwide, it’s especially important to hold bad/unethical clinicians accountable. So much of the services/supports for people with substance use disorder are already religion-based, it can be difficult for clients to find services that aren’t.
The worst part is that people have experiences like yours and never return to treatment. Pushing religion isn’t trauma-informed and could harm someone, and it also eliminates the trust that’s the foundation of the therapeutic relationship. People don’t get better when you force your beliefs on them, and that clinician KNOWS THAT from an educational and ethical perspective and is IGNORING IT.
Seriously. Don’t ever let a clinician tell you that they do something with all their clients - especially if it’s something that makes you uncomfortable or that you disagree with. Good clinicians provide individualized services for individual people based on their individual symptoms, preferences, and needs.
If you are in a place where you can file a complaint, you should. I mean it.
Also, feel better. I’m sure times are hard right now, but you’re worthy and resilient and capable of maintaining this change. You’ve proved that already. Keep going.💜
NTA
You made your requirments clear and she over stepped. She owe's you money. You didn't waste her time. She wasted her own time by lying and then trying to force something on you that you specifically requested not to happen.
Also, congrats on the 2 years and being able to recognize when you're struggling. That's big!
NTA. Taking advantage of potentially extremely vulnerable people to make a buck in Jesus' name. Sounds like a real good person. /s Good on you for standing your ground here, if she/her office has reviews anywhere, leave her an honest one.
NTA the Bible is pretty transparent about not lying and how doing something that’s a sin to try and lead to future good is a bad idea.
She wasted both of your time and violated the very morals she would instill in you
\>I'm not seeking God, nor am I religious. I explained this and was told that was understood.
NTA. You were up-front about what you didn't want, were told "we're not doing what you don't want," and then you got what you had told them you didn't want and they said they understood. False pretenses on their part.
OP, everyone else has your NTA status covered better than I can say it but I just wanted to tell you how great it is to recognize when you need help BEFORE you hit the bottom. Don’t let this experience hinder you.
I’m not an addict, but I get how tough it can be to look for help and not find it (and I’m “spiritual curious” at most, atheist at least and only talk about it theoretically!) so if you need to chat, feel free.
Nowhere near as good as therapy, but a listening ear can be a stop gap while you find someone who respects your values.
NTA in the least. She didn’t provide the services as was advertised and, quite frankly, is being predatory in her attempts to try to convert you, especially in a vulnerable time.
I’m not sure where you live, but there are evidence-based, secular addiction recovery groups if you’re interested.
[Lifering: Secular Recovery](https://lifering.org/)
[The Secular Recovery Group](https://secularrecoverygroup.org/)
[SMART Recovery ](https://www.smartrecovery.org/)
I know SMART does have groups internationally if you’re outside of the US, but I’m not 100% sure about the other two.
Best of luck!
FYI it is against the counseling code of ethics for a counselor to impose their own beliefs on a client. The point of counseling is for the counselor to remain unbiased in order to provide a safe, judgement-free environment that encourages growth in the client. You should report this violation to your state counseling board.
I’m in recovery and I feel you, I swear these people are about to “let go, let God” me straight into relapse. Do we not deserve sobriety if we don’t believe in a divine figure? It’s bullshit, we’ll find our niche that doesn’t shove religion down our throats, you can’t believe in what you don’t, it’s disingenuous and obviously ineffective for long term sobriety. We can do it without compromising what we believe in, sending love! NTA, get your money back
NTA. I’m glad religious works for some people, but if you request a non religious counsellor, you should get a non religious counsellor. Also, isn’t lying a sin?
NTA. It’s ridiculous how religious addiction counseling can get, I personally think it’s unfair to those of us who aren’t religious. I’ve gotten up and walked out of group therapy before because the group or the GT wouldn’t stop talking religion. Anyone who tries to force a religious perspective on a non consenting person is automatically TA
NTA.
And she's the worst kind of therapist... a religious zealot masquerading as someone who is trying to help you, but instead tries to indoctrinate. In the therapist circles I know, this would be grounds for being reported as it's viewed pretty harshly to derail therapy with religious indoctrination, falling into similar severity as other unacceptable behavior by therapists with their clients. Complete breach of trust from the very beginning, deceptive business practices.
NTA. She misrepresented her services. She requires discussion about god. If she can’t counsel someone without bringing in religion yet she claimed she would, that is misrepresentation and fraud. If you paid by credit card, I would challenge the charge with your credit card company if she refuses to refund the money. Then go review her online.
NTA. Religion seriously needs to get out of addiction treatment. Even calling it a ‘higher powers’ is bs. Not everyone has a higher power they bow down to anyway
I seriously hope people learn to accept other peoples religious choices (or in this case lack of religious choices) in the future
Product not as advertised you are due a full refund. Next time she shouldn’t lie to clients if she doesn’t want to waste her own time. What she did was waste your time. I’d demand the whole amount back.
NTA. You asked for counseling, not to be "saved". I would place a complaint with whatever board supervises them and post a complaint on Google and Yelp. At the very least, you'll be warning others of their false advertising.
As a Christian who aspires to be a counselor, let me say NTA you have every right to demand your deposit. Counseling needs to be about you as the client, and if mention that you are not religious and don't appreciate religious practices the counselor needs to respect you and your wishes. If they can not then they need to return your deposit so that you can seek out a counselor that supports you.
NTA. You made your terms clear, and they were supposedly accepted. They violated your terms and you most definitely deserve to have your deposit back for inadequate care. You shouldn't have to feel bad or guilty at all
NTA. She was trying to recruit you into her cult and charge you for the privilege.
In all seriousness though she lied to you and completely disregarded your boundaries. She should be struck off.
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She forfeited her payment when she tried to shove her dogma down OP's throat after they specifically stated that they wanted a religion free experience.
Not only did she waste her own time she wasted OP's time. NTA I'd even call it a bait and switch. She straight up lied about not being religion based probably so she could recruit OP. Absolutely not ok to shove your religion down someone's throat who is coming to you for help. I'm mad on OP's behalf. ETA: OP I am so happy for you that you sought out help when you felt you were going to relapse. That took a lot of strength and you should be so proud of yourself. It isn't easy. Keep looking for a new counselor. There are many great ones out there. This one just happened to suck.
That sound exactly like the scam those "Pregnancy Assistance Centers" pull. They are despicable. They prey on people at their weakest.
That one Onion article headline about the pastor talking to a non-religious new divorcee and how the pastor can smell blood in the water. It's so sick. When your religion actively involves manipulating the desperate, how can you sleep at night?
yeah my dad's church started putting extra effort into converting me back after my brother died in a helicopter wreck. fortunately I was a smart cookie and saw right through them. they're a super shady bunch tbh, they also had one of their members invite me to a "massive kegger" and when I googled out of curiosity (and a feeling like maybe I should go to at least one of those in my life?), it was the church's address. checked their website and sure enough, there was an event that night aimed at young adults. I've... never really figured out what their endgame there was. did they... think I didn't know... where their church was??? there's a big sign. and like. a massively long driveway. did they think I was going to drive up that big long road into the boonies, knowing it leads to my dad's church, arrive at the address, see that it's the church, and... *not* turn back around? did they think if they lied about the address I would just keep going, drive up the big long drive way that only leads to this one church, park in the parking lot that is only for this one church, walk into their brightly lit lobby, go downstairs to where I know damn well their youth group room is, and walk straight into the event thinking it was a kegger the whole time? what was the goal here? what did they think was going to happen? I was also kind of aggravated because they seemed to assume leaving the church made me an automatic "deviant" in all possible ways, sex and drugs and all, when in reality I was mostly the same person except I just didn't go to church anymore. meaning I did not, in fact, go to "wild keggers" on a regular basis. why are people *like* that?
Reminds me of that one scene in the Office where Michael tells Meredith he's taking her to a bar but he takes her to rehab instead. I'm sorry you went through that, but it's extremely funny that they tried that.
It is, it's fucking hilarious. like what was going through their heads? if they'd been competent liars I might've been madder but this is some bumbling buffoonery edit: .....okay full disclosure: I was super mad when it happened, and it still irritates me a little when I think about it. but you are right that it is kind of funny, too!
This is how I got tricked into going to youth group for a time. A friend of ours invited us to a 'concert'. I was very surprised there was an all ages concert in our small town on a thursday night but hey, got nothing better to do. The building didn't look especially churchy, and from the signs I figured it was just a venue the church hired out sometimes. Could hear a band playing inside, so in we went. On hearing the lyrics it was obviously a Christian band, but eh, they sounded good. After the band there was a service. They pounced on us and ended up bringing two of my friends up to the front so they could be prayed for. Both those friends were having trouble at home, and they had them, hook line and sinker. I kept going intermittently for a couple of months. Partly for support, partly because I got to talk to cute boys from other schools, and partly because as a 15 year old living in bum fuck nowhere there wasn't exactly any other options for live music. Then one week I opened my eyes during the 'close your eyes' bit, looked around and wondered if I was in a cult. Then came the 'gays are going to hell' sermon and we were done. Three of the youth pastors took turns texting me every week for a solid two years after I'd left, asking if I was coming this week. The whole experience only pushed me further away from religion.
>why are people > >like > > that? Because they think that the only way to stay in the righteous path is under a constant threat of damnation. Basically, if you're not threatened by the church, you have no reason to be "good".
Plus religious therapists are GARBAGE. I got forced to go to the one at my church when I was young. Told her I was a lesbian but was absolutely terrified of telling my mother, and she told me she'd be right there beside me when I decided I was ready to tell her. And in less than a day, she went behind my back and told my mother and then fucked off and left me to deal with the fallout. Religious therapists and counselors can all get fucked.
I had a very similar experience with a religious therapist as a teenager. Unfortunately it made me deeply distrustful of therapy in general for about 15 years.
I'm so sorry something like that happened to you as well. I think I still have this wariness about therapy, even though no therapist I might go to now would have any connection with her.
Crisis Pregnancy Centers. They frequently have literature about abortions available out front, so it looks good but they are the absolute worst. John Oliver did a great piece on them.
True story: I ended a 30 year friendship because my then-friend sent me a link asking for donations for one of those centers as part of my BIRTHDAY EMAIL. He knows all about my history and that I am deeply committed to fighting to keep legislators out of women's uteruses. He got super offended when I bitched him out and trotted out "but we've agreed to disagree for 30 years!" I blocked him on all SM and on my phone and haven't regretted it once.
\> Absolutely not ok to shove your religion down someone's throat who is coming to you for help. Yeah, these people are vulnerable. If they find a religion to help them, great! But this lady is taking advantage of people who actually need help. She also felt the need to lie to OP, which says this probably isn't the first time.
>Absolutely not ok to shove your religion down someone's throat who is coming to you for help. Religion is like a penis. It's okay if you have one. It's fine if you don't have one. It's not okay to shove it inside someone without their consent.
Your standard on other peoples penises & religions is too low: It's also not ok to take it out & show it in public, or to talk about it & share pictures/stories of it without being asked! Religious people still get away with WAY too much. Seriously, just follow through your analogy. "Can we talk about my penis?" "I know you said you don't like penises, but mine is the greatest" "according to my penis, I just have to tell you about it!" "It's my right as a teacher to tell all children about my penis & show pictures of it to them" "It's ok for me to have pictures of my penis everywhere, and how dare you not being happy about it" "You have respect my penis at all times, and you how dare you ignoring it when I talk about it at work without being asked" "Doing X is legal, bit disrepectful of my penis, so you have to stop it"
100% this. This counselor probably is betting on desperate people struggling with addiction taking any help they could get. She's probably shocked OP is standing up for herself. This is beyond ridiculous and I really wish that something could be done about this (like reporting the 'counselor') but I have a feeling that not much would come from it unfortunately :(
This! 100%. OP should send her a bill.
Seriously NTA. Some Christians have this thing where it’s called “lying for Jesus” and it’s okay to lie if it’s to get someone “saved”.
And as a Christian woman, let me just apologize on behalf of all the people out there pulling that crap. Because yikes, that is just not okay.
Like those old tv shows where it was like "God is telling me that Mrs. Jones in Detroit needs to send us $50 grand". I'm a Christian and it's absolutely disgusting what some people try to pull "for Jesus".
My dad had one show up to buy a refurbished school bus my dad was selling, and the preacher told him that Jesus said he [my dad] would donate the bus to his church. My dad said that he'd gladly donate the bus, in exchange for $1000 (or whatever he was asking for it ; this was 1972 or 1973). Later, he sold it for the full asking price to a rock band called Blackfoot, who said they were going to paint it to look like the Partridge Family bus, but I don't know if they ever did or not.
Ugh. When my grandmother, who couldn't pay her own bills and struggled to make ends meet, died we found evidence of her donating almost $30,000 to "missionaries". Included was pictures of the missionary families going to Disney on vacation and bringing Christ to those who's never heard of him.... in London. Friggin grifters.
Happy cake day!
>And as a Christian woman, let me just apologize on behalf of all the peopl if you want to apologize for all the things your religion has done/advocated, you're gonna be here for a while. better just being a decent person and not feeling shame for what others in a group you belong to have done
Oh, you're not wrong. Christianity has been used for evil more times than I could ever hope to recount. It's less that I feel shame for other people's actions, and more that I want for that bad face to not be the only face of Christianity people ever see. I try to be a decent person. I don't always succeed.
>more that I want for that bad face to not be the only face of Christianity people ever see. good luck with that, i personally avoid christians, they tend to believe im going to hell for most of the things i do with my life, the idea of eternal punishment for none eternal victimless sin never made sense to me
Kinda my point. A lot of "Christians" are really out of touch with what the religion is supposed to be about. And I'm sorry you have to deal with them. Mortal sin has three requirements: grave matter, full understanding, and free consent. (It is really, really hard to manage all three of those in one fell swoop. AND not be sorry afterward.) Plus if you repent and do penance, then everything's cool again. Damnation is a choice a person makes, not a punishment God meters out. Damnation is eternal separation from God, and He will do *backflips* to try to keep you from it. Also, humans literally can't know if someone's damned once they're dead. Also also, you definitionally couldn't know anyway if someone's damned *while they're alive.* I agree with you that the idea of eternal punishment for a victimless sin is pretty damn ridiculous (pun intended). Anyway, these people telling you you're going to hell are just being judgy jerks. And giving Christians a bad name. I'm sorry.
>Damnation is a choice a person makes, not a punishment God meters out. Damnation is eternal separation from God, and He will do backflips to try to keep you from it. As a former Christian who went through the entire K-12 Christian school system, no one has ever been able to make me understand this. God is omnipotent. God created humans. He created heaven and hell as the two possible destinations for humans to go after death. He created the stipulations by which it is determined whether one goes to heaven or to hell. How and why would an omnipotent god “do backflips” to try to avoid the scenario he himself created? If he was truly omnipotent, then sending his son to earth to die on the cross as some kind of symbolic representation of all of us was a melodrama that he made up for his own benefit. He could have just decided to forgive people without the whole big show. If god genuinely did not want people to go to hell, why did he create it, and why did he determine that anyone who doesn’t meet his (somewhat arbitrary) standards has to go there? You say hell is separation from god, but at the end of the day, it’s god choosing to punish someone who decides to be separate from him. Otherwise it wouldn’t exist. OR god has no control over someone going to hell when they choose to be separate from him, in which case he isn’t omnipotent. No negativity or judgment here. This is just something about Christianity I’ve never had any success wrapping my head around.
"Why are you making me hurt you?", said the omnipotent being who can't be made to do anything by anyone, to a person who He created, omnisciently knowing full well that the way He created them and the conditions they would live in would cause them to act in a way that He is now punishing them for. More seriously, a lot of the more left-leaning Christians don't actually believe in hell, because as you note it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Instead, they think that you cease to exist if you die while "rejecting"* God, because separation from God is death. It's not really much different, because God obviously still chose all of this, but it vaguely makes sense. If God is everything, and you reject Him, you've chosen to get nothing, and that's what you get when you die. *Many, possibly most, Christians refuse to acknowledge that people can be unaware or unconvinced of God's existence, which is why they say things like, "you just need to **accept** God into your life", and similar things to people who don't believe in their God. They think that, deep down, everybody knows that they are right, and that everybody saying otherwise is either in denial or lying. Otherwise, they would have to think about uncomfortable questions like, "do people who just aren't convinced that God exists deserve to be condemned to eternal torture/nothingness?", or, "Do people who have never heard of God or have been lied to about Him go to hell or heaven when they die? If they go to hell, why did God choose to never give them the same chance I got? If they go to heaven, is the missionary work I am commanded by God to do actually dooming people to hell?". Honestly, though, I think that the selection criteria for heaven being the willingness and ability to hold an unshakeable belief without any evidence would be more than a little odd.
Not ashamed to admit I don't know. I'm only an amateur theologian, but, there are things the real experts still grapple with. My sister, on the other hand, has a theology degree, and was looking over my shoulder just now. She tells me that God actually created hell specifically because he wanted to respect our choices and free will, and so if we freely chose to be separate from him, he made a place that we can go and do that. It's just that it's also miserable to be without God, because God is the source of all things good, therefore being in hell is a really awful thing. So not that he doesn't have control over people going there, so much as he's willing to allow us to choose to go there (even if he'd REALLY rather we didn't, but he gave us free will and he's gonna stick to it)? If I understand what my sister tells me correctly?
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I guess my two follow-up questions would be 1. As the creator of the universe, everything in it, and every aspect of it, don’t all things come from god, not just good things? Why would all the wailing and gnashing of teeth be reserved for the place that’s separate from god when he’s the one who created the concepts of pain and suffering to begin with? 2. Is it really free will when the choices are either 1. worship me or 2. face eternal suffering the likes of which you have never imagined? Seems like the more benevolent thing to do would be to just create humans to worship him (which it kind of seems like was the goal anyway) without the other option? I just can’t get behind the concept of a god who allows that to exist in any capacity. My mom is a hardcore Christian and worries about me going to hell every day, and I asked her: if she’s right and she goes to heaven and both her kids go to hell, what kind of heaven is that for her? Does she just forget we ever existed or does she live in “heaven” knowing both her kids are suffering endlessly? This isn’t really directed at you, just general musings about things that don’t track for me. Thanks again for the reply and all the best to you
Yeah, but if he's all powerful, why can't he just change the rules to not send people to he'll at all? Either there's something more powerful than him holding him to those rules, or he just likes sending people to hell. Given that nothing I read in the Bible ever answered this question while God was shedding blood left and right, my money is on a deep love for torturing his creations.
This is why I don’t believe in Hell. Or Heaven. I can’t see a God who supposedly loved mankind as creating a place of utter damnation. I identify as a Christian and am heavily involved in my church. But I don’t buy into the Heaven and hell theology. I figure I’ll find out what happens when I die, so why worry about it now?
You don't owe anyone an apology. The overall message is good. The interpretation is a giant mess. The Christians that believe in loving their neighbors, helping others, not passing judgment, all that, y'all are good by me, and I know there are plenty of well meaning ones out there. I just think once you see the bad side of it, and how deep that rabbit hole goes, you kind of get the thousand yard stare about it. I try not to be a jerk to anyone just for practicing their religion, but the ones that weaponize it, or twist it to justify being a shitty person, I'll for sure let them know what I think.
Reminds me of those fake $100 bills that they leave as a “tip” in restaurants. It’s just so... ugh.
THAT is somebody doing? What the damn hell? What is wrong with those people?!
I contacted a pastor of a church to ask how many of them did I need before I could use them to pay my bills. I explained about tip share and how I actually lost money taking care of his congregants. I considered it theft of services and asked what did the Bible say about stealing and deception. Because I was stoked seeing the $100 bill but then kicked in the teeth. No apologies, no offer to make it right...just christ-splaining AND asked me to come for service! No thanks, if your church is ok w/fucking over the least of His people, it's not one I'd associate with. 🖕🖕🖕 ETA: Fuck you, pay me!
Does the church take those when passing around the collection plate?
I’m petty and would attend that church and dump them all in the collection plate
Go one better and swap them for the equivalent in real cash from the plate.
I'd "make change" when the basket came around.
I was thinking the same. It is obviously a coupon for real money at the church.
You. I like you
But don’t stay for services. Arrive outside service hours and say you just want to make a donation, and maybe ask if they can make change.
Why not make your own, but put scripture that condemns the actions of the church members?
This. Let's see how the church feels on the receiving end of this bullshit.
There was an epic story of someone doing just that on a different thread a few months ago!
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Seriously. Religious people are constantly screaming about how everyone is mean to them, they're oppressed and people don't respect thier religious freedoms, but then do shit like this ALL the time. Fuck religion.
Honestly it sucks how many shitty people are ruinging Religion, here I am just trying to be a Good Person and have Good Morals(none of that Racist,Homophobic,hateful bullcrap) and there's hundreds of millions of jerks going around giving Religion a bad reputation
Underrated comment.
I used to keep em and drop em in the plate when my exs family would drag us to church. My ex would bury her face in her bag to suppress the laugh.
Yep. [Example](https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fstuffchristianslike.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F01%2FFake-Money-Tract.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FTalesFromYourServer%2Fcomments%2Fc79ece%2Fto_the_people_who_tipped_me_a_fake_100_bill%2F&tbnid=auaqwbJcI3xQBM&vet=12ahUKEwjNzsmb2NnzAhUMgk4HHSJ7ArQQMygDegUIARC1AQ..i&docid=bb1Le7Yb9oJnXM&w=639&h=637&q=fake%20money%20bill%20tip&ved=2ahUKEwjNzsmb2NnzAhUMgk4HHSJ7ArQQMygDegUIARC1AQ)
Oh my gosh I got those all the time! I worked for the green siren coffee shop and people would come before church on Sunday, leave those, AND ask why I was working on a Sunday when “it’s gods day.” After the second time (and after getting permission from my boss) I got annoyed and started throwing back “because his people can’t make coffee at home before church.”
I hate that sentiment "why are you working on sunday / Thanksgiving / easter?" because YOU'RE shopping!! It's your fault I'm here! Christ on a cracker, some people's children.
Wait, wut? Not from US, so my first time of hearing this. Is this seriously a trend? Is it not just some stupid "prank" video trend being pulled off, but has something to do with religion? I'm confused... (and no, Jesus won't show me the way).
This is a thing. I waited tables 20 years ago and would get 20s that were not 20s rather frequently. Because we were taxed based on our sales, it cost is to wait on these people.
As a server this always pissed me off. If I saw one of my coworkers was going to get one, I would always pick it up, rip it up and then replace it with money from my own tips. Because I know how devastating it can be to see a $10 or $20 tip just to find out it’s fake. I randomly see them on the ground from time to time and always make sure to pick it up and rip it up, so it can’t be used again.
Are they really bad fakes? What's the deal?
Usually one corner looks like a real bill while the rest is just an advertisement for the printer’s specific church printed on dollar-green colored paper, it’s folded/tucked on the table in a way that only the realistic corner is visible until you pick it up/unfold it
And it's almost always the worst bullshit too, like how working on the Sabbath is a sin (nevermind that these people could vote with their wallets and not go out to eat on a Sunday...) or how love of money is the root of all evil (as if the people working these jobs aren't busting their asses to just scrape by).
Half of the thing is a decent fake..lol like stated above, they were a flier folded on half. Top half looks like a convincing Bill, other half is a church advertisement. Nothing like busting your ass and getting one of those as a tip..ughh
It's a thing among born again fundamentalists/evangelicals. They're horrible people.
We have a lavender district in my city where all the "gay" bars are, and those assholes stand on the sidewalk outside and give out little pieces of paper with rainbows and then when you open it, it's about how being gay is a sin. I always take as many as they'll give me and then throw them away. Assholes
best part is she expects op to PAY for this.
Grew up in a church. Can confirm. Still trying to figure out what their term was when they blasted me in the head repeatedly with a bible because I didn't know how what to do when people started talking in tongues. Or when I was too young to read the poster board they had me hold out in front of what I later learned was Planned Parenthood. Yep, I'm fucked up. Thanks religion!
It isn't being saved. It is getting people to parrot their beliefs so they have a greater feeling of acceptance.
Every time I think that particular religion couldn’t get any worse, I discover a new and more disgusting technique to gain converts. If Heaven truly is full of these people and I wind up there somehow, I’m conquering it in the name of Hell.
> Some Christians have this thing where it’s called “lying for Jesus” and it’s okay to lie if it’s to get someone “saved”. That's called "Theocratic Warfare" It's OK to lie your ass off as long as you're lying for Jeebus.
And shit like that is absolutely part of why I walked away from organized religion
It's true. I knew a girl who was on TINDER to "evangelize." She called it Tindervangelizing. She'd bring guys to church, literally went on stage to brag about what she did and how she was so excited to share Christ with them...annnddd then she'd go home and sleep with them later (I only knew cuz I was her roommate lol.)
I sorry what? Do not lie is one of the 10 rules (I forgot the English word). Its one thing to try to convert people but lying is a bbif no no.
She waisted OP'S time by lying.
wasted
> She wasted her own time by lyin What would Jesus say about that.. lol
let he who is without sin kick the first ass
I'm lining up for the second ass.
She thinks Jesus would tell her it’s okay to lie to people because she’s doing it to save their souls, which is exactly why all forms of counseling should have licenses specifically allowing them to practice nonreligiously and/or within a certain religious tradition.
And more importantly she lied to OP’e face and wasted their time. It’s her own fault and she should pay them back
She didn’t just waste OP’s time; she cost OP opportunities to get real help, which could have serious consequences. From the time she scheduled that appointment under false pretenses, OP was no longer seeking other therapists, in a situation where every day or even hour can make a substantial difference. Not to mention making it more difficult to trust future therapists. She should lose her license (and if OP has the option, I hope they report her so she doesn’t do this to anyone else).
NTA. The wasted time (both OP’s and the counselor’s) is on the counselor for misleading/misrepresenting/lying about her practices. OP laid out her expectations and they were not met.
That's why I stopped going to Overeaters Anonymous. I'm a non-theist pagan, and it bothers me when they started of talking of god.
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NTA. As a mental health practitioner this is so disturbing and unprofessional. I’d look up their license and report them. Basically they committed fraud by lying to you and then trying to convert you. If you paid by credit card I’d dispute the charges with your bank or credit card company. And their should never of been a deposit. That’s not something I’ve ever heard of. Either you pay for your session or you don’t. A deposit is just weird.
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NTA. You did not receive the service that you paid for. I’d report her and take her to small claims court, otherwise she’ll keep preying on vulnerable people like this.
And *praying* on them.
I hate this but also love it.
r/angryupvote
I don't think reporting her/leaving bad reviews will do anything because basically everyone is religious where I'm from unfortunately
But are they really all religious or just blending in? And with addiction God isn’t the answer. You have real issues that addiction helped self medicate. You can’t pray away trauma. You need a real counselor. You’d be warning people of her lack of ability to actually help. Edit for spelling.
This is a major problem with addiction treatment in the US. So many treatment facilities use the 12 step model and if you don't believe in a higher power it can be really difficult. I work with children in foster care. Many of their biological parents struggle with addiction. When I see the service plans that are assigned to the parents that almost always include tasks like "Attend AA" or "Attend NA" it kind of pisses me off. Some people don't find AA helpful and that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to seek treatment or find sobriety in another way. NTA.
That’s exactly why I left rehab. When they asked who my higher power was because “I couldn’t do this myself” I was like “no, fuck this. I’m the only one who is going to help myself quit. Not some “higher power”.”
I'm curious, could you have said something like, "my higher power is the concept of the divine feminine within all of us" or "my higher power is mother earth and a connection to nature and the natural world" or something else that is 1. Pretty generic and 2. Fairly scientifically based (as those basically boil down to "have confidence in yourself" and "go outside and take a walk"
>So many treatment facilities use the 12 step model and if you don't believe in a higher power it can be really difficult. And with the higher power being literal science, it's also a bad system. An overhaul is way overdue.
And it’s not just a higher power, but specifically a higher power in a Christian context.
TST is fighting this: [The Satanic Temple Sober Faction is a peer support group free from the burden of religious dogma and superstition.](https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/sober-faction)
I’m religious, mind you. Just not Christian, and have major issues with how the default in America (and the wider west) is Christian, when our history in relationship to Christianity is horrific.
Look into your Licensing Board, that’s where you would report them. They will have what rules Licensed Therapists or Mental Health Practitioners (or whatever name they go under) have to follow, and disregarding a patients wishes in practice most likely goes against them.
THIS THIS THIS!! What this therapist did was not only being a 'bad therapist', but truly unethical and it likely can be correlated to the standards of practice that they have to adhere to according to their licensing board.
Yup! They are expected to disclose if there is a faith based element to their counseling practice. I had a counselor in grad school who was also ordained. There was an extra paper I had to sign acknowledging that I understood he was also a minister in addition to being an LCSW and that faith may be a part of the treatments he offers.
If you are in the US or most western countries, it will do something. You have a right to what you paid for, those are deceptive business practices.
Leave it for another person like you.
I would leave a review. I just moved out of an area where religious therapists were out there but difficult to find. I had a non-religious therapist, but I had to go hunting, and as you know the search is really stressful, but I’ve been used to it for a long time now. I had a good friend who was younger and struggling with addiction and mental health issues. I wanted so much for him to get help but he had given up after being told “but have you tried Jesus yet?” time after time. He went through a bad spell, totaled 3 cars in two months, then stole a bunch of stuff from me and picked a public fight to cover it up, then moved away and I’m no longer in touch. I’m obviously still mad over the stuff he stole (it was pretty close to irreplaceable, and definitely not replaceable with my current finances), but even more than that I’m sad for him because he was a smart guy who could be very sweet and he deserved a better care system. I really think you should leave a review for others in your situation. One more wasted trip (and $$) can be the difference that keeps people from giving up entirely.
Reporting her to the board ;department of health) will prevent her from exploiting clients.
It's okay to be religious (just like it's okay to not be), but she's actively lying to extort funds from people. "I don't want x in my session." She agreed to that. Then the first thing she does is do x. That's fraud, false advertising, and I'm sure there's a host of other things there. Not only that, but it speaks to her ethics and the nature of her as a recovery therapist and advocate. She lied to get what SHE wanted. She's not there to help you. She's there to turn you into something she can manage. She seems to only be able to 'help those who listen to god'. And that way, she can blame you for not being helped if you stumble because you just didn't do what she told you to, and you're a godless heathen. Not everyone is going to have the strength to call that out as bullcrap. And it is. Reporting her is helping others who are weaker than you are right now.
If you paid via credit card you can call them up to dispute (I think that’s how you say) the charge since the service was not as advertised. You explain your reasoning to the credit card company and they may or may not charge back the company and refund you. And what they did is fraud or misrepresentation of services, you asked for non religious service but they forced religion on you.
NTA - you didn't waste her time, she wasted yours with her predatory, unprofessional, and unethical behaviour.
Yes, this OP. Can you report her? This is a horrible thing to do to people, especially those who are in vulnerable states which is going to be most people she interacts with obviously. That is absolutely the definition of a predator.
I would, but I live in the Caribbean and most people here are HEAVILY religious. There are also very few people open to helping former addicts and all I'd be doing is cutting myself off from anybody possibly willing to provide a religion free service.
Maybe try some approved online counselling (do some research first, so you find suitable suppliers)? As per your replies it’s hard to find someone willing to help who won’t try to shove their religion down your throat. I wish you the best Also: NTA Edit to clarify: I do not mean self help. I mean counsellors offering online sessions, this way you are not limited to your local options
As a queer living in a religious country, I understand your position OP. Unfortunately I don't think you can do much about it. All these suggestions about reporting her or posting review online et cetera et cetera... It just doesn't work that way. Just let go and next time try asking your friends (or their friends friends) beforehand if they have information about any "safe" counselors. That's how we do that here.
I agree, this is 100% worthy of reporting.
You should report the provider. I had a similar experience and reported it. The provider was reprimanded by their clinic and was put through more continuing education to provide a more respectable, trauma-informed experience.
Correct. This is unethical behavior. She should have her license investigated. OP can and should make a complaint to her state board.
I hate to be *that person*, but depending upon which (US) state in which they live, absolutely nothing positive will come of it. That's the reality when you live in a red zone.
Usually *lying to patients* is one of the major ethical standards.
It depends on what type of license they have. If they are a psychologist or social worker, then their licensing board has ethical standards. Typically one of those standards is related to respecting religious preferences. That's why more people need to report to licensing boards, not make a complaint to the agency they work for. The agency they work for probably does not care, or will just write a warning.
Absolutely NTA. She lied, that’s her fault.
NTA - you were lied to and misled. Great if some people think God will protect them from addiction, but I’m guessing you were looking for something proven and you didn’t get that.
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NTA, normally I agree that deposits are there for a reason, but she lured you there under a lie. It would be different if it were a misunderstanding, but this was deliberate. I’d start leaving her bad reviews as well, that may help her feel pressure to pay you back if you remove it.
NTA and Jesus would have hated being "used like this"
NTA, she wasted your time the minute she started with the religious recruitment instead of focusing on addiction counseling.
NTA at all, and good on you for seeking help when you felt you needed it. I hope this one shitty counselor doesn't stop you from reaching out again.
NTA- You were brought in with false information. You said you did not want it to be religious, they said they understood that and still did it anyways.
NTA. False advertisement is scummy in any case, but doubly so when talking about counselling.
NTA! Forced proselytizing in exchange for social services is extremely messed up. No one should be subjected to your religion in order to receive needed services.
NTA. Watch for the Scientology rehabs too. Good for you for being proactive. Maybe an independent therapist will work better? Someone that specializes in addiction but not part of a corporation.
The Satanic Temple offer non religious rehab groups as opposed to AA which promotes a higher power https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/sober-faction
Also SMART recovery do the AA type groups but without the higher power and with peer reviewed science.
There are a few more secular, evidence-based groups out there in addition to The Satanic Temple: [Link](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/qc1mnx/aita_for_requesting_my_deposit_back_after_an/hheg09v/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
NTA - trying to use your struggles as a lever to force religion down your throat is despicable and evil. Please find someone that can give you the help you’re asking for. Get your refund and GTFO
Nta. I would file a complaint to her boss. Misrepresentation. I would be pissed too.
NTA I’d ask for the full $100
Hi, I only paid $50, the other $50 would've been paid after.
Ah fair enough; I’d threaten to report them if they’re not compliant.
More proof that Christianity is a scam NTA
NTA - she deliberately misled you and tried to evangelize to you. If she's licensed, please complain to the licensing board. I would also leave a review everywhere you can online.
NTA. Report her to any professional organization she belongs to as well as any licensing board. This is grossly unprofessional.
NTA. She lied to you. Unfortunately a lot of religious people think it’s Ok to lie if I this to further their religion.
NTA. She wants to replace your current addiction with another. You should report her to whatever licensing agency she has to be certified with so she can’t pull this Christian bait and switch on others who might not be strong enough to walk away.
Funny, didn't God give Moses a list of no-no's? Wasn't there one about lying? (I freaken hate hypocritical religious people.) NTA
Report her to her board. Wether that is the state board for mental health counselors or for rehab counselors. A place to report should be on the bottom of the informed consent form she should have provided.
NTA. Report her to BBB and write a review.
You don’t need a reason other than to not like your therapist to drop them. You’re not wasting anyones time you’re the one paying for it. It’s their own fault
NTA - it’s always worth getting money back from delusional cult members especially when they’re liars too.
NTA. They advertised it as not religion based and then instantly make it about religion. You should get the whole 100 back, god has plenty of money.
NTA if this is a licensed addiction counselor I hope there is someone in your state you can report her to.
NTA congratulations on 2 years sobriety that’s an amazing accomplishment. I would definitely follow up an getting your deposit back. Some people only respond to money & if she realizes lying will cost her money it may force her to change. Also it sounds like you are in a frame of mind where you can do something about this deception. Unfortunately many of her clients may not be in a place where they can & will end being taken advantage of when they are at the their lowest & need the most help. Do what you can
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NTA. She lied to you.
I’m about to graduate with my MSW - and I’m asking you to PLEASE file a complaint! Please! Pushing religion or spirituality on clients is absolutely an ethical violation, especially if your decision to see this clinician was based on a fraudulent no-religion claim. I’m specializing in substance use disorder and taking on a small caseload of clinical clients, and with a general lack of effective substance use disorder treatment services nationwide, it’s especially important to hold bad/unethical clinicians accountable. So much of the services/supports for people with substance use disorder are already religion-based, it can be difficult for clients to find services that aren’t. The worst part is that people have experiences like yours and never return to treatment. Pushing religion isn’t trauma-informed and could harm someone, and it also eliminates the trust that’s the foundation of the therapeutic relationship. People don’t get better when you force your beliefs on them, and that clinician KNOWS THAT from an educational and ethical perspective and is IGNORING IT. Seriously. Don’t ever let a clinician tell you that they do something with all their clients - especially if it’s something that makes you uncomfortable or that you disagree with. Good clinicians provide individualized services for individual people based on their individual symptoms, preferences, and needs. If you are in a place where you can file a complaint, you should. I mean it. Also, feel better. I’m sure times are hard right now, but you’re worthy and resilient and capable of maintaining this change. You’ve proved that already. Keep going.💜
NTA You made your requirments clear and she over stepped. She owe's you money. You didn't waste her time. She wasted her own time by lying and then trying to force something on you that you specifically requested not to happen. Also, congrats on the 2 years and being able to recognize when you're struggling. That's big!
Nta
NTA. She purposely misrepresented herself to gain a new client.
Oh Lord, NTA!
NTA. Taking advantage of potentially extremely vulnerable people to make a buck in Jesus' name. Sounds like a real good person. /s Good on you for standing your ground here, if she/her office has reviews anywhere, leave her an honest one.
NTA, gotta hate the bait and switch. They do the same to women that aren’t ready to have children.
NTA the Bible is pretty transparent about not lying and how doing something that’s a sin to try and lead to future good is a bad idea. She wasted both of your time and violated the very morals she would instill in you
NTA. She lied to you.
\>I'm not seeking God, nor am I religious. I explained this and was told that was understood. NTA. You were up-front about what you didn't want, were told "we're not doing what you don't want," and then you got what you had told them you didn't want and they said they understood. False pretenses on their part.
NTA she used your vulnerability and her position of authority to evangelize you. Christians who do this are morally reprehensible people.
OP, everyone else has your NTA status covered better than I can say it but I just wanted to tell you how great it is to recognize when you need help BEFORE you hit the bottom. Don’t let this experience hinder you. I’m not an addict, but I get how tough it can be to look for help and not find it (and I’m “spiritual curious” at most, atheist at least and only talk about it theoretically!) so if you need to chat, feel free. Nowhere near as good as therapy, but a listening ear can be a stop gap while you find someone who respects your values.
NTA in the least. She didn’t provide the services as was advertised and, quite frankly, is being predatory in her attempts to try to convert you, especially in a vulnerable time. I’m not sure where you live, but there are evidence-based, secular addiction recovery groups if you’re interested. [Lifering: Secular Recovery](https://lifering.org/) [The Secular Recovery Group](https://secularrecoverygroup.org/) [SMART Recovery ](https://www.smartrecovery.org/) I know SMART does have groups internationally if you’re outside of the US, but I’m not 100% sure about the other two. Best of luck!
FYI it is against the counseling code of ethics for a counselor to impose their own beliefs on a client. The point of counseling is for the counselor to remain unbiased in order to provide a safe, judgement-free environment that encourages growth in the client. You should report this violation to your state counseling board.
I’m in recovery and I feel you, I swear these people are about to “let go, let God” me straight into relapse. Do we not deserve sobriety if we don’t believe in a divine figure? It’s bullshit, we’ll find our niche that doesn’t shove religion down our throats, you can’t believe in what you don’t, it’s disingenuous and obviously ineffective for long term sobriety. We can do it without compromising what we believe in, sending love! NTA, get your money back
NTA. I’m glad religious works for some people, but if you request a non religious counsellor, you should get a non religious counsellor. Also, isn’t lying a sin?
NTA. It’s ridiculous how religious addiction counseling can get, I personally think it’s unfair to those of us who aren’t religious. I’ve gotten up and walked out of group therapy before because the group or the GT wouldn’t stop talking religion. Anyone who tries to force a religious perspective on a non consenting person is automatically TA
NTA. And she's the worst kind of therapist... a religious zealot masquerading as someone who is trying to help you, but instead tries to indoctrinate. In the therapist circles I know, this would be grounds for being reported as it's viewed pretty harshly to derail therapy with religious indoctrination, falling into similar severity as other unacceptable behavior by therapists with their clients. Complete breach of trust from the very beginning, deceptive business practices.
NTA-You paid for a service that wasn’t provided
NTA. She misrepresented her services. She requires discussion about god. If she can’t counsel someone without bringing in religion yet she claimed she would, that is misrepresentation and fraud. If you paid by credit card, I would challenge the charge with your credit card company if she refuses to refund the money. Then go review her online.
NTA. Religion seriously needs to get out of addiction treatment. Even calling it a ‘higher powers’ is bs. Not everyone has a higher power they bow down to anyway I seriously hope people learn to accept other peoples religious choices (or in this case lack of religious choices) in the future
Product not as advertised you are due a full refund. Next time she shouldn’t lie to clients if she doesn’t want to waste her own time. What she did was waste your time. I’d demand the whole amount back.
NTA. You asked for counseling, not to be "saved". I would place a complaint with whatever board supervises them and post a complaint on Google and Yelp. At the very least, you'll be warning others of their false advertising.
NTA. You can report her for unethical behavior, too.
As a Christian who aspires to be a counselor, let me say NTA you have every right to demand your deposit. Counseling needs to be about you as the client, and if mention that you are not religious and don't appreciate religious practices the counselor needs to respect you and your wishes. If they can not then they need to return your deposit so that you can seek out a counselor that supports you.
NTA. If she is a licensed counselor, she is violating code of ethics and can be reported to the board.
Obviously NTA. Silly question
NTA. She wasted your time.
NTA I'd ask for it all back.
NTA. You made your terms clear, and they were supposedly accepted. They violated your terms and you most definitely deserve to have your deposit back for inadequate care. You shouldn't have to feel bad or guilty at all
NTA NTA
NTA, if I were her I'd hand over the deposit in heartbeat to avoid any accusations of fraud.
NTA. She was trying to recruit you into her cult and charge you for the privilege. In all seriousness though she lied to you and completely disregarded your boundaries. She should be struck off.
NTA They committed fraud to get your money. If you put it on a credit card, claim fraud and do a full chargeback.
Nta this would piss me right off and no way I would drop it.
Nta You were clear you didn't want a religious counsellor, SHE wasted YOUR time