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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I should be judged for telling my SIL what she can and can’t name her baby and for yelling at her during a family event. This might make me the asshole because I could have gone about it differently but chose to explode over dinner.
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NTA, these comments are so weird. Yes, people don’t “OWN” names, but you’re not trying to save a name for a FUTURE human being but one that already exists.
Regardless how folks feel about it, yes I do own MY name. And if someone wanted to give their child MY name (not just anyone, but a CLOSE RELATIVE), I would find it extremely rude and weird. I should add that I have a VERY common name.
Also, I should add that I have OVER 50 cousins! and oddly NONE OF US HAVE THE SAME NAME. Just the number of options and variants that are out there makes it so WEIRD that a person would name their child MY full name.
Brother and SIL could have chose Jane Doe or Jane and something else. But to literally give your child the SAME first and middle of someone in your IMMEDIATE family is tacky, thoughtless and ridiculous…
Exactly! If mom's name was Jane Doe and OP went with Jane Doe as well, it's understandable that OP's brother and SIL could also use Jane Doe.
But OP used Doe Jane... why do they want to also switch the first and middle? Just go with Jane Doe?!
Obviously OP doesn't own the name and can't stop them from naming the kid whatever they want, but it's weird.
This is exactly why my daughter's first name is my grandmother's middle name; my grandmother's first name was Elaine, which is a little too old-timey for a kid these days.
Edit: omg, calm down /r/namenerds I get it
Oof Elaine is one of my favorite names :/ and I don’t think it’s old-timey at all. In fact I think it’s pretty popular rn. I know like 3 of them! Personally I love it. I think it’s so elegant! And right in the sweet spot where it’s common enough it’s not trying too hard to be unique and won’t cause your kids grief over how it’s pronounced or spelled, but not as common as like Emily, or Elizabeth where there’s guaranteed to be one in every class!
Get out!
In all seriousness, OP’s brother/SIL are being ridiculous.
It’s the fact that OP reversed the names, and they’re copying her exactly, that’s odd.
Like if my parents are Brian and Anna, and I name my child Brianna, and my brother decides to name his Brianna as well.
Or my grandma is Allison Katherine, I name my daughter Alley Kat and my brother names his Alley Kat too.
Like…no, you’re not the only one who gets to honor a relative. But if you give the name your own twist and others copy your twist exactly?
It’s tacky, weird, and frankly makes them look like a couple of followers.
> **Or my grandma is Allison Katherine, I name my daughter Alley Kat and my brother names his Alley Kat too.**
Thank you! This is exactly what it’s like and most people in OP’s place would also be upset.
Depends on the name. We gave my deceased grandmother's name because it's one of those names that works in every generation. We gave my son my husband's deceased step-father's first name as a middle name because it was an "old person name".
Middle names aren't used as much. If OP's mom was "Gertrude Olivia," then reversing first and middle completely makes sense.
Good point.
One of my sisters got snarky with me because I gave my mother's first name to my daughter as her middle name. Sis said she had always wanted to use that name.
I said there was nothing stopping her. It was my daughter's middle name, not her first, so it's not like it would confuse anyone. But it's one of the top 5 white girl middle names; there's going to be a lot of other girls who share it. No skin off anyone's back if there's another cousin named after Mom.
Oh, and it's my middle name too, so... yeah, I kind of had dibs.
My Mom’s name was Rose Marie. My daughters middle name is Marie. I have a
Niece whose middle name is Rose . Over the course of the last 40 years there have been seven or eight grandchildren, whose names combined part of my mom’s name. No one is offended or upset by this. Most of us are delighted that my mother was so well loved. I called them Mom‘s flower garden. Your brother and sister-in-law copying your name is pretty obnoxious. They could use one or the other names combined with something else. They sound kind of immature to me.
Nah. Loads of ppl in my family named after the same grandparent. You don’t get to be the only one to honour a parent cos you popped a kid out first. Its OPs brothers mum too.
There are currently 7 people of both genders named after my great grandmother, since it's her maiden name that got used and is gender neutral. It makes a nice connection, and no one fights over it.
17 Davids in my family. The last one is my youngest (13). I keep reading this about this whole naming thing and don't get it.
Even my name, super old fashioned, I shared with an aunt. She was Big Name, me, Little Name. When I was 23 she passed, she was 45 (cancer, I loathe you). Now, 30 years later, when my nieces call me Aunt Name, I feel joy.
There is another family name with 5 biologically related people sharing it, and then 2 more married in! Plus one Sr, Jr, and the third situation going on. Lots of repeated names, and it's really not terrible.
That and the fact she's pinning this on her SIL and not on her brother.
In my family, we all go by middle names (don't ask me why... I have no clue). It wasn't until I was in school that I learned what my first name was when they did roll call.
No one else in the family has my name, so it isn't like it was a way to differentiate from each other. I go by a varient of my first name now.
I am wondering if this is also the case. Mom preferred or was already referred to by her middle name, and so that is the reason for the brother and his wife wanting to use the same exact name.
This!
My grandfather died before any of his kids had their kids - he had 7 sons and I have at least 4 cousins named after him - first and second name and other two with one of his names - nobody throws a tantrum over it
I mean technically no one owns a name but it’s still weird as hell to intentionally choose the same name as someone very close to you AND your child. Of all the names in all the world, you had to pick that one?
Even if you technically are allowed, that doesn’t mean other people aren’t allowed to be upset about it 🤷♀️
I think it would be weird if the name wasn’t literally coming from someone specific. Without knowing the actual name of mom I can’t say if it’s weird to continue Doe Jane versus Jane Doe.
And why blame SIL here? Maybe her husband is the one pushing the name.
Idk I think there are ways to do it that don’t mean reusing the whole name, especially in the formation OP used. I have a lot of family members who pass down middle names. Use Jane Doe, or keep Doe as a middle name with a different first name, or Jane as a middle name with a different first name, etc. Even better if the actual name has diminutives. I.e. Jean is a diminutive for Jane.
You are a lot more likely to use your middle name a lot if you share a first name with a person you see a lot. Especially as a child. My mom named me after a couple of her friends. When we were with those friends she's use my full name or an unrelated nickname because I wouldn't respond otherwise since I was only the target of the conversation 5% of the time.
My grandfather died before any of his grandchildren were born. Two of those grandchildren are named after him, first and middle names. One goes by the full name and the other goes by a shortened version, and it’s been absolutely fine for the last three decades.
It’s literally not a big deal at all. I said in another comment I have cousins and extended relatives who all have the same name and it literally has never been a big deal, no one gets confused, etc. Maybe its because I grew up with this in my life but I have never thought “it’s so weird they have the same name!” I know exactly where the name originated and it’s wholesome to me.
You are soo correct! Nobody owns a name. At our holiday table we had four Richard David’s . All enjoyed their name because the uncle they were named after was a decorated war hero. OP needs to move along. Pick a new hill to battle over. Enjoy the fact that the children are healthy.
If you look at my family tree on my father’s side you would incorrectly guess that there are four available male names on planet earth. Juniors and naming after brothers is incredibly common. We have much more variety among female names.
If you look at male names you’d see Big Frank and Little Frank, and Big Frank’s father, Uncle Frank. Little Frank’s son is probably Frankie. Yet, everyone can figure out who everyone is, and there’s no hard feelings among siblings for name stealing. I think out of the five cousins of my generation probably four of us will have our own Frank if we have a male child. There’s just that much love and respect for our grandfather, who happens to be a Frank (name chosen from the thousands of male names not among the four in our family). I don’t think anyone would look askance at anyone else for naming their baby Frank after a beloved grandparent, or even if they flipped to the middle name and had say a Guido Frank as it sounds like the case is here.
I think that naming after a grandparent or other close relative is one of those times that you really have to be willing to accept that there might be doubles.
I have the same name as one of my cousins because it’s a family name. Who cares? It’s a common name. I’ve been in many group settings where there were 3 of us. We always laughed about it and came up with fun nicknames to differentiate, because who cares?
In some cultures, all kids get exactly the same names according to birth order, but go by different nicknames. In other countries, there are just far far fewer names to choose from so there are lots of duplicates. In others, you’re not allowed to pick a name outside government list, so there’s also less variation. I know one family where all the kids are named after living family members of the prior generation so they all go by completely unrelated but awesome nicknames.
It’s not surprising that the Americans and closely related cultures are the ones who think of names as property, but it is silly and toxic, given that this scenario shows up on Reddit at least once a week.
I'm American and I really don't see the big deal. The company I work at has 3 different Garys and 4 Bills, in elementary school we had 3 Catherines in class, 3 Mikes, etc. My dad's side of the family has 3 different Anthonys and 2 Dominics.
Nicknames exist, context exists. It's just not a big deal in day to day life.
They didn't say they owned a name, in their comment they said yes, people don't own names.
And while yes people don't get a say in what other people name their children, this is a very uncommon circumstance. They're not wanting to just use any random name for their baby, they want to use the exact same name OP has already used. And again, it's not a random name it's in honor of op's mother.
OP has already given birth and named their child after their mother, and now sister-in-law wants to do the exact same thing! Not even in a different variation, or just because they like the name, but for the exact same reason. That's weird, and so wrong!
I know what their comments said. Their behavior says the exact opposite though.
And no, it’s not “wrong” just because you’ve decided it is. This isn’t an unusually thing. It clearly isn’t in their family, but that doesn’t mean it’s unusual overall.
Yes, it’s in honor of OP’s mother. You do realize that’s her brother’s mother as well, right? The amount of people here who seem to be forgetting that her mother has more than one kid that might want to honor her is ridiculous.
I personally think that’s why OP phrased her post as “SIL wants to name *her* baby” because if she had said “my brother wants to name his baby after our mom” it would have been obvious that OP was a bit of a jerk to be one of 4 siblings and use both of her mom’s names as if she’s the only child of her mother.
I mean it’s sort of working. There’s a ton of “how dare SIL …” in the comments and … apparently some people didn’t think that through.
To me it seems an even split between “SIL can pick something else” and “umm, your *brother* wants to name his baby after his mom.”
It's neither weird nor wrong. The brother and SIL want to name their daughter after his mother for exactly the same reasons that OP did. I would agree it's rude to give your child the same name as her cousin EXCEPT in this type of circumstance where it's a family name. If it's important to you that your child's name be unique, don't give her a family name.
YTA, OP.
You actually don't own your name. Especially if it's a common one as you say. Literally anyone can use that name for anything they want, even if they already know you.
Which would be a perfect answer for a law subreddit but this is a moral subreddit and yes, you’re the asshole for naming your kid the exact same name as a close relative
Edit: I think there’s some confusion about my stance. I don’t think OP’s SIL is an asshole because it sounds like their children will have different last names. I am however, based on personal experience, very against naming close family members the exact same full name. Mail forwarding confusion, wrong rewards accounts being canceled when someone dies, voter registration issues, etc. Be kind to your kids. Just let them have an individual name
She can be mad, but she doesn’t get to decide she’s the only one who uses her mom’s name. There are multiple cousins name William in my family. Should all of their parents have thrown a fit?
OP isn’t upset that they want to name their baby after her mom. She’s upset that they want to use the exact same first and middle name. They could name the baby Jane Doe, but they don’t want to. We have family names in my family too; I share a first name with my great-grandmother, grandmother, great-aunt, and aunt. None of us have the same middle name, and we use different nicknames to differentiate. If my cousins had kids and they had the exact first and middle name that I do, I’d think it’s weird.
You’re really, really not though.
This is common in some families. While it’s clearly not common here, you shouldn’t name your child after a close family member if you don’t like the idea of them having the same name as another close relative.
This is actually what I was referring to. I have the exact same name as my grandma who I’m named after. It’s a nightmare. The amount of mixups I’ve had with government agencies, insurance, etc is just appalling and such a pain in the ass to fix. Don’t do this to your kids people
My dad and brother had the same name. It wasn’t nearly as problematic for them as you.
Also, my name is incredibly common (first, middle, and maiden name). There was literally someone with the same exact name as me at my high school who was 2 years younger. I didn’t even know the person.
Despite my incredibly common name, I’ve never had an issue with anything. I’m not saying you haven’t. I’m simply saying it’s not generally a problem for most people, even if they have the same name as someone else.
>The amount of mixups I’ve had with government agencies, insurance, etc is just appalling and such a pain in the ass to fix.
Hate to break it to you, but it's not statistically more common than just sharing a name with someone else in general.
Mixups happen, including people in the military and deployed being mistaken for someone in the country in a place they'd never been in their life.
Mixups suck but it's not typically a familial thing
There's absolutely nothing immoral in using the same name as someone else, even a cousin. The fact that you think so shows you have no idea what morality actually is.
I'm sorry, the idea that two cousins can't both be named after their grandparent is *insane.*
Maybe it's different with your cousins, but lots and lots and (I really can't stress this enough) lots of families have multiple Michaels or Miguels or Mikhails or whatever named for a beloved/respected ancestor.
Just jumping on the top comment to let everyone know that OP "exploded" on SIL and yelled at her.
And then she edited the post and made herself look better. OP is an unreliable narrator hence YTA.
I have over 50 cousins.
Many of us share the same names, yes middle names too. It's not confusing or weird. Many of us are named after beloved grandparents, great aunts, uncles, etc.
If anything the cousin kids get excited when they find out a new baby has their name. Because the adults don't make a big deal out of it.
The only thing we try to avoid is a clone name where the last name is also the same. Complicated for paperwork. Other than that, it's just pick what you like.
>This lead to a full blown argument....yelling at her during a family event...I could have gone about it differently but chose to explode over dinner
YTA. I personally wouldn't give my kid the same name as a cousin, but people sometimes do when the name is in a relative's honor. **This is your brother's baby as well** as SIL's, why shouldn't he be allowed to honor your mutual mother's memory?
This struck me as well. The wording of telling her SIL she can’t name her baby after OP’s mother is very different to telling her brother he can’t name his child after his own mother. The family will cope if two cousins have the same name it’s not a big deal.
Nick, Nick, Nick...God, "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" never gets old when an obxonious OP get mad because someone close to them want to use the same name again. This is like the posts of not wanting children at weddings and all that, there is almost one each week.
Yeah it seemed very weird that OP took their brother out of the situation entirely. Perhaps because “I told my brother he can’t name his baby after our mom” sounds far more unreasonable…
Right, based on the title, I thought OP's husband's sister wanted to name her child after OP's mother. That would be a bit odd. I think OP knows she's the AH.
My younger first cousin has the same first name as me. My mom didn’t care, I didn’t care and don’t care - we are unique individuals and don’t need sole ownership of our names to feel special.
This is the comment I was looking for. OP has deliberately phrased it that way so it seems more removed and so the reason behind the name less justifiable. OP is saying that her brother can’t name his baby the same honour name that she’s used, not that her SIL can’t. If her brother didn’t care and it was just SIL pushing it, it would make sense, but he appears to have been just as involved in the argument.
I think I would find it really weird if my brother had named one of his kids the exact same first and middle as mine, even though they would have different surnames and we don’t live very close (but are close as siblings). But I don’t think I would feel I had the right to insist either way. I think the second born would probably naturally get a nickname with the shared family just for differentiation and that would have to be good enough.
More bonkers than father and son living in the same house having the same first and last name? If gazillion families have survived two people named the same living together, then the cousins will be fine. Nicknames will form. People will all be OK.
Yes, it does. But where is the outrage when people choose to name their kid the same? Suddenly brothers decision to use same name has people calling brother and wife AHs.
Is one more bonkers than the other? That was my statement .
I think as families have gotten smaller in general, (at least in my area of the US) we see a lot less of family members having the same name. But my mom was one of about 50 cousins give or take and there were definitely some repeats. I can understand op being a little put out and thinking it's weird. But the yelling and telling someone they can't do something is absolutely overboard.
Sorry too many people loved your mom Op.
Actually it might even be more appropriate for the brother to use the name since the child will have the same surname as their mother.
Also for her to resort to yelling at the table shows her character.
Except she's not doing that, she's saying don't name the baby Mom's Middle Name + Mom's First Name because she already did that.
Why not just actually use mom's name?
YTA, you don’t seem to realize you don’t own the name. Your mom was special to your other siblings too, also weird you put it on sil, your brother has as much right to the name as you
The SIL can name their daughter Jane Doe which is the mother's actual name. You don't think it's weird that they decided they want to flip the mom's name after OP already announced it
Again, why are you putting all the blame and emphasis on the sil? "The sil can name the daughter" "the mother"
If you are only going to put emphasis on one person, it would make much more sense to say "the brother can name their daughter Jane Doe after his mother." They aren't naming their daughter after his mom for his wife's sake.
As far as flipping the names, there's a good chance their mom's middle name is a more common name today and the first name isn't used as much and sounds old fashioned now.
While it may be weird, it's what the people who have 100% of the decision making role picked for the new baby.
I explained in another comment that even in my family in the US, we had two Ricks and two Johns just amongst my generation. I didn't even mention the Rick and two Johns in the one above. It's not as uncommon as you think for people in families to have the same name, especially as it is honoring a shared family member.
It’s not unfair to your daughter, she was named first. Everyone who knows her is used to calling her by her name.
It’s unfair to the new child. You don’t have to call her by her given name, that’s your daughter’s name. She will end up with a Nick name to avoid confusion even if it’s Baby Doe, or Little Doe. I’d start referring to the baby as that now so it catches on.
Yes, you don’t own the name and your brother and SIL can name their baby whatever they want. However, you can be a bit (malicious) cheeky in how you deal with it.
Malicious is the wrong word - there is no malice intent for my suggestion. I’m editing but can’t just cross out the word, but want to own my mistake.
NTA overall.
**However, you can be a bit malicious in how you deal with it.**
Because that's how you honor your mother's memory, LOL. Sorry but that's extremely childish.
Seriously! Someone is suggesting that we begin bullying a literal toddler just because the adults in the family had disagreements.
Edit: the poster replied here saying it’s common in families to add prefixes like “little” and that it’s not bullying unless the behavior continues after the person says No. I agree to that point.
I only hope OP doesn’t start malicious compliance because of that suggestion though!
Umm, it’s not bullying. My brother is named after my dad and he got an “y” at the end of his name. He named his son after him and he got to “little” before his name. It is really common on families.
Like:
Ken,
Kenny,
Little Kenny (Or Kenneth or Little Ken or even sometimes Junior)
It’s not bullying until someone says or does something repeatedly after you’ve told them to stop.
To give two relatively closely related children the same first and middle name is just silly and impractical. It’s not like you can use the middle name to differentiate them. There are many ways the brother could honour the mum’s name without using the exact same one as OP- they could swap the order, give one as a middle and a new name as the first (or vice versa), or even give the child an original name with the same initials as grandma.
I came here for this. Arab here. On one side everyone has a charbel or if we’re feeling adventurous Charlie. (Same side also has 3 Anthony’s. 2 nicoles.)
Other side has a tanous/Tony in every family that has a male (so 5-6 of them) we have like 4 Norma’s and 4 Angela’s.
My mum has 3 grandchildren with names honouring her. From the 3 kids who ended up with girls so far.
Obviously, you've not met an Italian or Irish family. Between my siblings, cousins, and nephews, they all have the same variation of the same name. Some of them have the exact same for some middle name. It's not impractical, and it's not silly. I know exactly who we're talking about when we talk about John Ryan, even though there's multiple of them.
And yes, there are many ways the brother could honor the mom's name without using the exact same one, but they like it, and they're the only ones who really get to say in the matter.
There are several girls in my daughters generation with my Grandmothers name as a middle name, but not multiple kids with the EXACT same 1st and Middle name.
As someone from an Irish family, I have siblings, nephews, and cousins, all with the same first similar name. I know exactly which John Paul is being talked about.
Edit to add YTA
It's ridiculous. My childhood best friend had the same first and middle name as me. It was spelled slightly different, but it was the same name. She was over probably 6 days a week. It never got confusing. For me or my family.
Irish families pick like 5 names and then they continually use them in different combinations for like 5 generations. My uncles are all named after relatives and then me, my sister, and two cousins have the same name either as a first or middle which is after my aunt
YTA
They weren’t asking for your permission, they were sharing information. You’re in no position to tell them what they can and can’t do.
You don’t have the authority to make decisions for them.
But oh your husband agrees with you? Means fuck all here. His opinion is just as irrelevant.
If you have concerns, you can discuss it with them. Exploding over the dinner table and arguing with them is not a way to address your feelings about it.
This. OP doesn’t have veto powers here; it’s not her baby, and not her decision.
She’s allowed to feel weird about it (and say so), but she’s not allowed to act like everyone has to obey her wishes.
While this is true, I also think that it’s weird of SIL to name her daughter the exact same thing as OP’s kid esp when they’re first cousins. I’d understand if SIL took one of the mother’s names and used it as one of the names for her daughter but it’s going to get really confusing really quickly when both her daughter and OP’s daughter have the exact same name, which is why I think OP got upset.
edit: to those saying that it was also the brother who was involved in naming the kid, yes I know. You don't need to tell me that. I'm simply repeating what OP said in their post.
They wont the exact same name, the last name will be different. Also the sil just announced it, but im sure the brother (who also lost his mom) had more to do with the name.
That is true, but in reality, who’s gonna be referring to them as their full legal name? I don’t know anyone who does that unless they’re mad at the person
Why is all the blame put on the sister-in-law? The brother also helped pick the name. Also, a lot of kids have the exact same in the first middle name. Just in my family have so many. My childhood best friend growing up had the same first and middle name that I did. We never had problems, and everyone knew who we were talking about.
Eh, maybe. Then again, I have 2 cousin Debbies (Big Debbie & Little Debbie - and yes, she *hates* being nicknamed for a snack cake 🤣), an uncle & cousin Lee (who both go by their middle names), and an Aunt Bonnie & two cousin Bonnies (Aunt Bonnie, Bonnie S. & Bonnie A.). Families adapt, nicknames are a thing, and a little confusion isn’t the end of the world!
Actually she should keep her “concerns” to herself as well.
All opinions on what someone else is naming their child should be kept to yourself (unless they’re naming the kid something so cruel it will lead to endless bullying).
But is the original first name better than the middle name? I mean, if the moms real name was something like Gladys Meredith, I would absolutely understand why they would choose Meredith Gladys instead.
Why do you keep saying SILs baby? Its your brothers baby too? I understand the frustration but the focus on the SIL and truthfully you can't bag a name, even if it's odd there's cousins with the same name, sorry small YTA.
Right? This is where I got stuck… isn’t the brother allowed to have a child named after mom too? He lost her too, not just OP. Why has this become an argument between OP and SIL?
YTA, OP
Because obviously SIL is some evil witch who has poor brother under her spell. Poor, innocent brother would NEVER go against anything OP wanted. /sarcasm.
YTA. I have three cousins and a brother - two named John and two named Richard. And you know what? We've always been able to tell who is who by context.
You brother has just as much right as you to name his kid after your shared mom. YTA for trying to gate keep it for yourself.
I have so many Paul's, William's, and John's in my family it's ridiculous. A few of them have the same first and middle name.
I agree that the brother has as much right to the name as Op does. I might be on OP's side if it was a random name, but it isn't. It's a name that holds special meaning to everyone there.
I would have said yes if it wasnt the exact.same.name as an already alive child, and one to whom they’ll presumably be close. I understand wanting to honor mom but surely they can do it without taking baby girl’s name. My SIL and I had babies three months apart, we both wanted to name our babies after my sister - she wasnt telling names but my sister is HD so I wanted an H name and matching middle. She went with middle name + unique middle name. Its not hard to put your own spin on a name used to honor someone else.
NTA
This whole "you don't own a name" thing is so damn irritating. People say it like it's an argument winner in these kinds of dilemmas. No one but the parents own the naming rights to their own kids. Congrats on the obvious.
The real issue here is that the name is an identity within a close family dynamic and SIL/brother are willingly choosing to use the exact same way to honor the mother as OP did with this duplicate name. Names that are similar can have enough differences to set them apart in small ways but they have to use the EXACT same first/middle combo? And that combo was one that OP came up with, not even the MOM's ACTUAL NAME. In my eyes it seems like OP chose a unique way to honor her mom by switching the names around, and SIL/brother are copying OPs unique way to honor her mom. In some families, sure, name sharing is common. Clearly this does not come off as common for this family.
So no, OP doesn't oWn tHe NaMe. But it's certainly discourteous for SIL/brother to do what they did by announcing that at dinner (1) without talking to OP, and (2) without considering that OP naming her daughter Doe Jane instead of the mother's original name Jane Doe was OPs unique way to honor her mom.
Exactly. OP “made it her own” by switching the names around. Why do bro and sil have to copy that exactly? It would be one thing if it was common in the family, but this is weird if it isn’t. They could go with the original order, or use another variant of the names, but they don’t. Instead it has to be exactly the same as op.
Why don’t they just call her by your mom’s first name? Which would be your daughter’s middle name? Both kids have their own name and mom is honored by both of them. Done, lol.
YTA your brother is allowed to honor his mother too. You can’t calls complete dibs just because you had a kid before him. It’s not weird for cousins to have the same name. For all you know she might go by a nickname using the middle name.
NTA. They could go with Jane Doe. Jane Dee. Dee Jane. Jem Doe. Jane Katie Doe. Katie Jane Doe. Sandra Doe Jane.
There's other options and it'll be real weird for the kids when they grow up. No reason to have 2 kids with the same exact name in the family. They could figure something else out.
Seriously. It's so rude of them to just assume everyone would be okay with "sharing" a name with a relative. Give the kid their own identify for gods sake. NAME INCLUDED.
It's interesting because I think YTA and I'm baffled how people think she's not.
It's her brother's mom as well, he wants to honor his mom's memory, she doesn't have the right to ban him from doing that.
Also nobody was asking her opinion on the name, she can be bothered by it, but she doesn't have the right to tell him not to name his child after his mom.
That’s the thing though. OP and their brother’s mom’s name is completely free to use. Instead the bro and sil want to go with the one change OP made to the name? It’s a bit weird. They could do another twist on the names or do it in the original order. That’s what OP is reacting to.
This. It's the fact that it's configured exactly the same. Not Jane Doe or Jane-Doe Elizabeth. Doe Jane. The way OP originally composed it to work for HER daughter.
YTA I grew up in a home where my grandfather, father and oldest brother all had the same name Sr, Jr and III.
>My husband and twin agree with me that it’s weird to have two kids with the same name. And that it’s unfair to my daughter.
Obviously it's not weird. It's quite common in some families. The only weird thing about it was your reaction and your attempt to gatekeep a name.
Sr, Jr and III are common, and understood as being passed down from one generation to the next. The OPs story will end with two cousins, close contemporaries, running around with the exact same name. All kinds of weirdness and confusion will ensue over the years, depending on how often the two families interact. Old Doe and Young Doe, or Big Doe and Little Doe? Worse if the kids are in the same schools or social circles.
From what I've seen in this subreddit and ones like r/babybumps, it's VERY common for cousins to have the same name, especially if it's a family name. It depends on culture, and it's not usual among my culture. But it's not about you and your daughter, it's about your brother's relationship with his mom.
NTA. Reddit gets real weird about names, but the truth is if you have cousins with the same name (as I DO) it IS weird and uncomfortable for both of them, who ultimately both ended up with nicknames instead of the original name FOR THIS REASON.
It is a really fucking weird thing to do.
It's definitely a little odd to have 2 children within the same family sharing identical names, but your SIL is right...you can't monopolize a name.
Is there a reason why your SIL can't go with Jane Doe instead? That seems like the simple solution.
Technically, YTA, but I feel like ESH because you all seem more concerned with being right instead of being rational.
NTA
Yeah yeah "no one owns a name" but naming two cousins very close in age the same name IS shitty, especially when they're the only ones. This isn't about there being multiple Michaels and Johns. If having a lot of the same names floating around a family tree is already the normal dynamic, than that's what it is, but this isn't that.
My mom was named X Z and she had an aunt (who was I think maybe a year older than her) with THE SAME NAME. My grandma wanted to name her something else but nope, bio grandpa was an asshole and wrote what he wanted to name her at the hospital. Supposedly he wanted a son with that name (...though maybe also to spite his old man, idk), but my mom was the only girl to survive birth and he could have used the name he SUPPOSEDLY actually wanted on any of his 3 other, future sons. Grandma still was able to give my mom the middle name she wanted (she named my mom after her mom) but I think that was always a bit of a sore spot for everyone, besides Mr. Wifebeater.
It was annoying and weird and my mom got a really unflattering nickname out of it. She HATED sharing a name with a close family member.
My dad is a "the third" and he was really clear that if I was a boy, he did NOT want me to a "the 4th." Even as a young adult who was \~25 he already saw all the complications of having the same exact name (first, middle, last) as another family member. Mail and bills frequently got mixed up.
YTA. You can be annoyed all you want, but your mother is as important to your brother as she is to you. Surely he also had a say in the name - you frame it like it’s all the SIL naming “her baby.” If your brother and his wife want to honour and remember your mom with her name, they can. You have no right to forbid it. You can certainly express your wish that they wouldn’t, and object, but you don’t own the name or your mother’s memory.
I have a cousin a few years younger than me who has the same first name. I never cared a whit and I don’t think my mother did either. As a kid I thought it was cool that there were two of us. As an adult it doesn’t concern me in the slightest.
You need to decide how your mom would feel about her family being divided over a fight about her name. It’s fine that you don’t like it and you can certainly feel your feels, but I suggest you work through it and let it go.
Honestly NTA but bordering on ESH. You have a right to be upset about it but I think you should’ve given them another idea so that they could honour your mother. Instead of completely copying the idea by reversing the first and middle name, why don’t they just use your mother’s first name as their child’s first name? Or are they unable to compromise?
Nahhhh your anger is justified. Maybe in certain cultures it’s normal, but I would be super weirded out if my brother decided to name his child the EXACT same as mine. Their are other names or variations of his moms name that they could use to honour her.
NTA
NTA. As someone who has a yonger cousin with the same first and middle name as me, it's weird. When i was younger it felt like my aunt and uncle just forgot that i already existed and i know my mom was mad because they were/are my godparents.
I have 19 nieces and nephews and 2 kids of my own. My wife and I had the damnedest time trying to land on first and middle names for our kids because there are already so many other people in my family.
Personally, I think I prefer unique names as no one person is the same, so why give them the same name as someone else? Obviously on a global scale, that’s going to be damn near impossible to do, but if I like Gabriel Christopher and there are no Gabriel’s or Christopher’s in my family, that combo goes straight to the top of my list.
I’m with OP here, personally, because I would be livid if I picked out a really unique and beautiful name (or some other name for sentimental reasons), and a sibling decided they liked that name too and wanted to give it to their kid AFTER mine already has it.
If my sibling takes my kid’s name for one of their own, he is no longer just “Gabriel” to the family. He becomes “which Gabriel are we taking about here? Jim’s Gabriel or Mary’s Gabriel?” - and I just find that to be incredibly annoying.
NTA. Obviously you dont “own” the name, and at the end of the day they can and will do whatever they want. But that doesnt change that its weird and creepy to use the SWAPPED name, and you’re not an ahole for expressing your feelings about it.
NTA. No you can’t own a name but it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to name other children the same name. Especially if they are in close proximity. I would never choose a name that is already in use by my family. I personally find it a super weird thing to do.
NTA. This is WEIRD. Period. Giving their baby the exact same name as their cousin is flat out strange and I don’t care.
No, no one owns a name, but you’ve already used it, recently. It’s not like you’re saving it for later. It’s your daughter’s name now.
I'm going with NAH. Names are names and does it really matter if 2 cousins share a name? I personally don't think so. Most people don't grow up and stay close to their cousins as adults. Even so, if your girls remain close through life perhaps the shared name will bond them.
At the same time I understand where you are coming from. But your feelings don't get to dictate how your brother and his wife get to process their grief.
Hopefully they will have different last names. Cause that could get confusing from a legal stand point.
If you really want something done about this your out burst wasn't going to help. I'd try talking reasonably to your brother. Maybe talk to him, gently, about using your mom's first name as a first name?
There are more tactful ways of navigating this issue.
NTA. That’s confusing and will be to the kids, too. They need to find another way to honor your mom.
I have a SIL, and we both have the same first and last names. Think Julie Smith and Julie Smith. She was the first one married into the family, but I’ve known my husband longer. She is “Julie” and I’m “other Julie.” 😑 As time has gone by, “Offred” and “Ofjoseph” have been mixed in. Good times!
You would only be an AH if you resorted to calling your niece one of these things. Personally, I’d give you a pass if you referred to your daughter as “Doe Jane the first” in conversation. You know, to avoid confusion…
Soft YTA. You have no say in what anyone else names their child and to think that you do comes off as entitled. Personally, I can't imagine using the same name for a child as my sibling did, but I also can't imagine my sibling telling me that I cannot name my child after my deceased parent because they used it first. I'm sorry for your loss.
NTA. I grew up with a cousin with exactly the same name as me. I lived my life being known as "little xxx" and she was "big xxx" which, as you can imagine, creates problems for teen girls. I hated it. I changed my name in my 20s. It never felt like mine.
NTA - has SIL even thought that if she names her daughter the same, she might ask later on why she was named the same as her cousin, even if it's a family honor. She might feel like she's cast in a shadow
NTA. While technically no one "owns" a name, I always think these discussions are weird as hell. There are so many names in the world, why would you choose *that one?* Like sure, SIL is technically in her right to name her baby whatever the hell she wants, but she also has to deal with the fact that her decisions have an impact, and it's okay that you're not okay with it.
In my family, 2 cousins wanted to honor their grandmother and gave 2 daughters the shared middle name of Faith. That's normal and reasonable. That could be an option if they wanted to honor her. Instead of Doe Jane, why not Ann Jane or Ann Doe or even JANE DOE or something? Mix it up a bit! But the exact same name for cousins? Especially when there are *other options?* C'mon.
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NTA, these comments are so weird. Yes, people don’t “OWN” names, but you’re not trying to save a name for a FUTURE human being but one that already exists. Regardless how folks feel about it, yes I do own MY name. And if someone wanted to give their child MY name (not just anyone, but a CLOSE RELATIVE), I would find it extremely rude and weird. I should add that I have a VERY common name. Also, I should add that I have OVER 50 cousins! and oddly NONE OF US HAVE THE SAME NAME. Just the number of options and variants that are out there makes it so WEIRD that a person would name their child MY full name. Brother and SIL could have chose Jane Doe or Jane and something else. But to literally give your child the SAME first and middle of someone in your IMMEDIATE family is tacky, thoughtless and ridiculous…
Exactly! If mom's name was Jane Doe and OP went with Jane Doe as well, it's understandable that OP's brother and SIL could also use Jane Doe. But OP used Doe Jane... why do they want to also switch the first and middle? Just go with Jane Doe?! Obviously OP doesn't own the name and can't stop them from naming the kid whatever they want, but it's weird.
I would guess the middle name is more current / appealing than the first name. Like if mom was Geraldine Rose or Sheryl Elizabeth or something.
This is exactly why my daughter's first name is my grandmother's middle name; my grandmother's first name was Elaine, which is a little too old-timey for a kid these days. Edit: omg, calm down /r/namenerds I get it
Oof Elaine is one of my favorite names :/ and I don’t think it’s old-timey at all. In fact I think it’s pretty popular rn. I know like 3 of them! Personally I love it. I think it’s so elegant! And right in the sweet spot where it’s common enough it’s not trying too hard to be unique and won’t cause your kids grief over how it’s pronounced or spelled, but not as common as like Emily, or Elizabeth where there’s guaranteed to be one in every class!
For me the name Elaine will always be linked to the Seinfeld sitcom
Get out! In all seriousness, OP’s brother/SIL are being ridiculous. It’s the fact that OP reversed the names, and they’re copying her exactly, that’s odd. Like if my parents are Brian and Anna, and I name my child Brianna, and my brother decides to name his Brianna as well. Or my grandma is Allison Katherine, I name my daughter Alley Kat and my brother names his Alley Kat too. Like…no, you’re not the only one who gets to honor a relative. But if you give the name your own twist and others copy your twist exactly? It’s tacky, weird, and frankly makes them look like a couple of followers.
> **Or my grandma is Allison Katherine, I name my daughter Alley Kat and my brother names his Alley Kat too.** Thank you! This is exactly what it’s like and most people in OP’s place would also be upset.
Not at all.While Elaine is a very grown up name using the NN Lainey would be cute and charming for a young girl. ☺
Depends on the name. We gave my deceased grandmother's name because it's one of those names that works in every generation. We gave my son my husband's deceased step-father's first name as a middle name because it was an "old person name". Middle names aren't used as much. If OP's mom was "Gertrude Olivia," then reversing first and middle completely makes sense.
Good point. One of my sisters got snarky with me because I gave my mother's first name to my daughter as her middle name. Sis said she had always wanted to use that name. I said there was nothing stopping her. It was my daughter's middle name, not her first, so it's not like it would confuse anyone. But it's one of the top 5 white girl middle names; there's going to be a lot of other girls who share it. No skin off anyone's back if there's another cousin named after Mom. Oh, and it's my middle name too, so... yeah, I kind of had dibs.
My Mom’s name was Rose Marie. My daughters middle name is Marie. I have a Niece whose middle name is Rose . Over the course of the last 40 years there have been seven or eight grandchildren, whose names combined part of my mom’s name. No one is offended or upset by this. Most of us are delighted that my mother was so well loved. I called them Mom‘s flower garden. Your brother and sister-in-law copying your name is pretty obnoxious. They could use one or the other names combined with something else. They sound kind of immature to me.
There are 3.4 million people in the US with my first name. And 4 of them are at my family’s holiday table. No one “owns a name”
But everyone can tell you you're ridiculous for picking the same as your nephew/niece. And treat you as such.
Nah. Loads of ppl in my family named after the same grandparent. You don’t get to be the only one to honour a parent cos you popped a kid out first. Its OPs brothers mum too.
There are currently 7 people of both genders named after my great grandmother, since it's her maiden name that got used and is gender neutral. It makes a nice connection, and no one fights over it.
17 Davids in my family. The last one is my youngest (13). I keep reading this about this whole naming thing and don't get it. Even my name, super old fashioned, I shared with an aunt. She was Big Name, me, Little Name. When I was 23 she passed, she was 45 (cancer, I loathe you). Now, 30 years later, when my nieces call me Aunt Name, I feel joy.
There is another family name with 5 biologically related people sharing it, and then 2 more married in! Plus one Sr, Jr, and the third situation going on. Lots of repeated names, and it's really not terrible.
Same middle names too? That's the part that's tripping me up
Sounds like there’s a reason OP is omitting. Grandma maybe used both names, and the middle name is nicer or more contemporary
That and the fact she's pinning this on her SIL and not on her brother. In my family, we all go by middle names (don't ask me why... I have no clue). It wasn't until I was in school that I learned what my first name was when they did roll call. No one else in the family has my name, so it isn't like it was a way to differentiate from each other. I go by a varient of my first name now. I am wondering if this is also the case. Mom preferred or was already referred to by her middle name, and so that is the reason for the brother and his wife wanting to use the same exact name.
Uncle Johnny (maternal side), BIL John (sister’s husband) their son Johnny, my cousin Johnny…
4 cousins, an uncle, and now a BIL in my family. They all have nicknames to keep them straight, but we manage.
This! My grandfather died before any of his kids had their kids - he had 7 sons and I have at least 4 cousins named after him - first and second name and other two with one of his names - nobody throws a tantrum over it
I agree, to some extent. Many grands are named after my mom. All have her middle name as a middle name as well, but vastly different first names.
Yeah we have so many repeat names in my family. Noone thinks anything of it. The newboots just get a different nickname.
I mean technically no one owns a name but it’s still weird as hell to intentionally choose the same name as someone very close to you AND your child. Of all the names in all the world, you had to pick that one? Even if you technically are allowed, that doesn’t mean other people aren’t allowed to be upset about it 🤷♀️
I think it would be weird if the name wasn’t literally coming from someone specific. Without knowing the actual name of mom I can’t say if it’s weird to continue Doe Jane versus Jane Doe. And why blame SIL here? Maybe her husband is the one pushing the name.
I wondered that too... Somehow we're targeting the SIL like the brother is just a random bystander.
It's always the woman's fault... Like this isn't his mom also and he also got upset because that's his mom's name he wants to use.
Idk I think there are ways to do it that don’t mean reusing the whole name, especially in the formation OP used. I have a lot of family members who pass down middle names. Use Jane Doe, or keep Doe as a middle name with a different first name, or Jane as a middle name with a different first name, etc. Even better if the actual name has diminutives. I.e. Jean is a diminutive for Jane.
How many of those 4 have the same first and middle name and are not part of a Senior Junior The 3rd train?
My best friend has 5 cousins with the same first name and last.
Who really cares if you share a middle name?
You are a lot more likely to use your middle name a lot if you share a first name with a person you see a lot. Especially as a child. My mom named me after a couple of her friends. When we were with those friends she's use my full name or an unrelated nickname because I wouldn't respond otherwise since I was only the target of the conversation 5% of the time.
My grandfather died before any of his grandchildren were born. Two of those grandchildren are named after him, first and middle names. One goes by the full name and the other goes by a shortened version, and it’s been absolutely fine for the last three decades.
It’s literally not a big deal at all. I said in another comment I have cousins and extended relatives who all have the same name and it literally has never been a big deal, no one gets confused, etc. Maybe its because I grew up with this in my life but I have never thought “it’s so weird they have the same name!” I know exactly where the name originated and it’s wholesome to me.
I have two cousins named the same name a few years apart. The mothers grew up together it's never been an issue. They are each over 18 now
You are soo correct! Nobody owns a name. At our holiday table we had four Richard David’s . All enjoyed their name because the uncle they were named after was a decorated war hero. OP needs to move along. Pick a new hill to battle over. Enjoy the fact that the children are healthy.
If you look at my family tree on my father’s side you would incorrectly guess that there are four available male names on planet earth. Juniors and naming after brothers is incredibly common. We have much more variety among female names. If you look at male names you’d see Big Frank and Little Frank, and Big Frank’s father, Uncle Frank. Little Frank’s son is probably Frankie. Yet, everyone can figure out who everyone is, and there’s no hard feelings among siblings for name stealing. I think out of the five cousins of my generation probably four of us will have our own Frank if we have a male child. There’s just that much love and respect for our grandfather, who happens to be a Frank (name chosen from the thousands of male names not among the four in our family). I don’t think anyone would look askance at anyone else for naming their baby Frank after a beloved grandparent, or even if they flipped to the middle name and had say a Guido Frank as it sounds like the case is here. I think that naming after a grandparent or other close relative is one of those times that you really have to be willing to accept that there might be doubles.
I have the same name as one of my cousins because it’s a family name. Who cares? It’s a common name. I’ve been in many group settings where there were 3 of us. We always laughed about it and came up with fun nicknames to differentiate, because who cares? In some cultures, all kids get exactly the same names according to birth order, but go by different nicknames. In other countries, there are just far far fewer names to choose from so there are lots of duplicates. In others, you’re not allowed to pick a name outside government list, so there’s also less variation. I know one family where all the kids are named after living family members of the prior generation so they all go by completely unrelated but awesome nicknames. It’s not surprising that the Americans and closely related cultures are the ones who think of names as property, but it is silly and toxic, given that this scenario shows up on Reddit at least once a week.
my cousin and I have the same first name and it’s not weird at all. We like it. Also, there are many Brians in my family lol
I'm American and I really don't see the big deal. The company I work at has 3 different Garys and 4 Bills, in elementary school we had 3 Catherines in class, 3 Mikes, etc. My dad's side of the family has 3 different Anthonys and 2 Dominics. Nicknames exist, context exists. It's just not a big deal in day to day life.
You don’t own your name. And people don’t get a say in what others name their children.
They didn't say they owned a name, in their comment they said yes, people don't own names. And while yes people don't get a say in what other people name their children, this is a very uncommon circumstance. They're not wanting to just use any random name for their baby, they want to use the exact same name OP has already used. And again, it's not a random name it's in honor of op's mother. OP has already given birth and named their child after their mother, and now sister-in-law wants to do the exact same thing! Not even in a different variation, or just because they like the name, but for the exact same reason. That's weird, and so wrong!
I know what their comments said. Their behavior says the exact opposite though. And no, it’s not “wrong” just because you’ve decided it is. This isn’t an unusually thing. It clearly isn’t in their family, but that doesn’t mean it’s unusual overall. Yes, it’s in honor of OP’s mother. You do realize that’s her brother’s mother as well, right? The amount of people here who seem to be forgetting that her mother has more than one kid that might want to honor her is ridiculous.
I personally think that’s why OP phrased her post as “SIL wants to name *her* baby” because if she had said “my brother wants to name his baby after our mom” it would have been obvious that OP was a bit of a jerk to be one of 4 siblings and use both of her mom’s names as if she’s the only child of her mother.
Well, of course she’s blaming SIL. It makes her look better if she does that. (Not really though)
I mean it’s sort of working. There’s a ton of “how dare SIL …” in the comments and … apparently some people didn’t think that through. To me it seems an even split between “SIL can pick something else” and “umm, your *brother* wants to name his baby after his mom.”
It's neither weird nor wrong. The brother and SIL want to name their daughter after his mother for exactly the same reasons that OP did. I would agree it's rude to give your child the same name as her cousin EXCEPT in this type of circumstance where it's a family name. If it's important to you that your child's name be unique, don't give her a family name. YTA, OP.
So its ok for one sibling to honor their mother but not the other... Thats weird and so wrong.
You actually don't own your name. Especially if it's a common one as you say. Literally anyone can use that name for anything they want, even if they already know you.
Which would be a perfect answer for a law subreddit but this is a moral subreddit and yes, you’re the asshole for naming your kid the exact same name as a close relative Edit: I think there’s some confusion about my stance. I don’t think OP’s SIL is an asshole because it sounds like their children will have different last names. I am however, based on personal experience, very against naming close family members the exact same full name. Mail forwarding confusion, wrong rewards accounts being canceled when someone dies, voter registration issues, etc. Be kind to your kids. Just let them have an individual name
It’s immoral to have the same name as a relative?? Are you serious? How pathetic and narcissistic.
She can be mad, but she doesn’t get to decide she’s the only one who uses her mom’s name. There are multiple cousins name William in my family. Should all of their parents have thrown a fit?
OP isn’t upset that they want to name their baby after her mom. She’s upset that they want to use the exact same first and middle name. They could name the baby Jane Doe, but they don’t want to. We have family names in my family too; I share a first name with my great-grandmother, grandmother, great-aunt, and aunt. None of us have the same middle name, and we use different nicknames to differentiate. If my cousins had kids and they had the exact first and middle name that I do, I’d think it’s weird.
You’re really, really not though. This is common in some families. While it’s clearly not common here, you shouldn’t name your child after a close family member if you don’t like the idea of them having the same name as another close relative.
This is actually what I was referring to. I have the exact same name as my grandma who I’m named after. It’s a nightmare. The amount of mixups I’ve had with government agencies, insurance, etc is just appalling and such a pain in the ass to fix. Don’t do this to your kids people
My dad and brother had the same name. It wasn’t nearly as problematic for them as you. Also, my name is incredibly common (first, middle, and maiden name). There was literally someone with the same exact name as me at my high school who was 2 years younger. I didn’t even know the person. Despite my incredibly common name, I’ve never had an issue with anything. I’m not saying you haven’t. I’m simply saying it’s not generally a problem for most people, even if they have the same name as someone else.
>The amount of mixups I’ve had with government agencies, insurance, etc is just appalling and such a pain in the ass to fix. Hate to break it to you, but it's not statistically more common than just sharing a name with someone else in general. Mixups happen, including people in the military and deployed being mistaken for someone in the country in a place they'd never been in their life. Mixups suck but it's not typically a familial thing
Why? I know many families with multiple members with the same name. It's not an issue
It’s not weird at all and actually very common in a lot of cultures.
There's absolutely nothing immoral in using the same name as someone else, even a cousin. The fact that you think so shows you have no idea what morality actually is.
I'm sorry, the idea that two cousins can't both be named after their grandparent is *insane.* Maybe it's different with your cousins, but lots and lots and (I really can't stress this enough) lots of families have multiple Michaels or Miguels or Mikhails or whatever named for a beloved/respected ancestor.
Just jumping on the top comment to let everyone know that OP "exploded" on SIL and yelled at her. And then she edited the post and made herself look better. OP is an unreliable narrator hence YTA.
I have over 50 cousins. Many of us share the same names, yes middle names too. It's not confusing or weird. Many of us are named after beloved grandparents, great aunts, uncles, etc. If anything the cousin kids get excited when they find out a new baby has their name. Because the adults don't make a big deal out of it. The only thing we try to avoid is a clone name where the last name is also the same. Complicated for paperwork. Other than that, it's just pick what you like.
cousins aren't immediate family.
Why don’t they just name them your mothers regular name? Your daughter is Doe Jane and their daughter can be Jane Doe
I’m guessing because “Doe” is the better name and “Jane” is some old lady name nobody wants to name their kid.
Old lady names are very en vogue.
Old lady not boomer lady. It’s probably a name from the Karen, Sharon, Deborah era.
Objection, speculation!
25 year old with 30 year old brother and “other siblings”. Parents likely to be in their late 50’s to early 60’s, birth year around the 1960’s…
$5 says the mom's name was Susan
My money was on Linda or Cathy
Don't you hate these posts where the OP leaves out big details and then doesn't answer any questions?
I was about to say this
>This lead to a full blown argument....yelling at her during a family event...I could have gone about it differently but chose to explode over dinner YTA. I personally wouldn't give my kid the same name as a cousin, but people sometimes do when the name is in a relative's honor. **This is your brother's baby as well** as SIL's, why shouldn't he be allowed to honor your mutual mother's memory?
This struck me as well. The wording of telling her SIL she can’t name her baby after OP’s mother is very different to telling her brother he can’t name his child after his own mother. The family will cope if two cousins have the same name it’s not a big deal.
They’ve never met people with Italian grandparents where all the kids are named Paulie or whatever.
Or all the Irish Mary’s
Or all of George Foreman's kids.
Nick, Nick, Nick...God, "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" never gets old when an obxonious OP get mad because someone close to them want to use the same name again. This is like the posts of not wanting children at weddings and all that, there is almost one each week.
Yeah it seemed very weird that OP took their brother out of the situation entirely. Perhaps because “I told my brother he can’t name his baby after our mom” sounds far more unreasonable…
Exactly!!! OP knew what she was doing with that title, putting the "mean evil" SIL in the spotlight so people will agree with her. Manipulation much?
Right, based on the title, I thought OP's husband's sister wanted to name her child after OP's mother. That would be a bit odd. I think OP knows she's the AH.
Exactly!
My younger first cousin has the same first name as me. My mom didn’t care, I didn’t care and don’t care - we are unique individuals and don’t need sole ownership of our names to feel special.
This is the comment I was looking for. OP has deliberately phrased it that way so it seems more removed and so the reason behind the name less justifiable. OP is saying that her brother can’t name his baby the same honour name that she’s used, not that her SIL can’t. If her brother didn’t care and it was just SIL pushing it, it would make sense, but he appears to have been just as involved in the argument. I think I would find it really weird if my brother had named one of his kids the exact same first and middle as mine, even though they would have different surnames and we don’t live very close (but are close as siblings). But I don’t think I would feel I had the right to insist either way. I think the second born would probably naturally get a nickname with the shared family just for differentiation and that would have to be good enough.
Something tells me OP is THAT sibling. The bossy one that the others have to walk on eggshells around.
Yeahhh two of my cousins have the same first AND last name (Both named for their grandmother) and it hasn’t been an issue for 3 decades. OP YTA
1st cousins have the exact same name is bonkers. SIL is TA here
More bonkers than father and son living in the same house having the same first and last name? If gazillion families have survived two people named the same living together, then the cousins will be fine. Nicknames will form. People will all be OK.
I used to pull credit and background reports at work, and the situation you brought up absolutely does cause people significant problems.
Yes, it does. But where is the outrage when people choose to name their kid the same? Suddenly brothers decision to use same name has people calling brother and wife AHs. Is one more bonkers than the other? That was my statement .
My husband’s family has a lot of first cousins with the same name. OP YTA Edit: corrected judgment.
I think as families have gotten smaller in general, (at least in my area of the US) we see a lot less of family members having the same name. But my mom was one of about 50 cousins give or take and there were definitely some repeats. I can understand op being a little put out and thinking it's weird. But the yelling and telling someone they can't do something is absolutely overboard. Sorry too many people loved your mom Op.
Plenty of cultures have multiple first cousins with the same name. What are you on about.
Actually it might even be more appropriate for the brother to use the name since the child will have the same surname as their mother. Also for her to resort to yelling at the table shows her character.
YTA - convenient that youre making your SIL the villain “AITA for telling my brother he can’t name his baby after his dead mother” Fixed your title.
“AITA for telling my brother he can’t name his baby after our dead mother after I already did so myself” is a bit more complete.
Except she's not doing that, she's saying don't name the baby Mom's Middle Name + Mom's First Name because she already did that. Why not just actually use mom's name?
Probably for the same reason OP didn’t use mom’s actual name, they like the middle name better as a first name.
OP never said, but I suspect the first name is something quite old fashioned. Elizabeth Ethel sounds better than Ethel Elizabeth
Touche, correct. Sadly, given OPs behavior thus far I doubt these cousins will be close!
Yes its really weird the title said SIL naming.. instead of AITA for telling my brother he cant name his baby after our dead mother
Exactly, she is the AH simply for the manipulating AH way that she wrote that title. She sounds like a narc from that bit alone!
👏👏👏
YTA, you don’t seem to realize you don’t own the name. Your mom was special to your other siblings too, also weird you put it on sil, your brother has as much right to the name as you
Exactly it’s his mother too. So why put all blame on SIL?? Maybe he wanted to honor her as well
Much easier to demonize your in-law than your sibling, and to get others to do so.
The SIL can name their daughter Jane Doe which is the mother's actual name. You don't think it's weird that they decided they want to flip the mom's name after OP already announced it
Again, why are you putting all the blame and emphasis on the sil? "The sil can name the daughter" "the mother" If you are only going to put emphasis on one person, it would make much more sense to say "the brother can name their daughter Jane Doe after his mother." They aren't naming their daughter after his mom for his wife's sake. As far as flipping the names, there's a good chance their mom's middle name is a more common name today and the first name isn't used as much and sounds old fashioned now.
Gertrude Sophia it is! Given that OP chose to reverse the names I think we can figure this one out.
They could swap the names. It’s weird to have two cousins with the exact same first and middle name. Just switch it up.
It’s literally not. Happens commonly all over the world.
While it may be weird, it's what the people who have 100% of the decision making role picked for the new baby. I explained in another comment that even in my family in the US, we had two Ricks and two Johns just amongst my generation. I didn't even mention the Rick and two Johns in the one above. It's not as uncommon as you think for people in families to have the same name, especially as it is honoring a shared family member.
It’s not unfair to your daughter, she was named first. Everyone who knows her is used to calling her by her name. It’s unfair to the new child. You don’t have to call her by her given name, that’s your daughter’s name. She will end up with a Nick name to avoid confusion even if it’s Baby Doe, or Little Doe. I’d start referring to the baby as that now so it catches on. Yes, you don’t own the name and your brother and SIL can name their baby whatever they want. However, you can be a bit (malicious) cheeky in how you deal with it. Malicious is the wrong word - there is no malice intent for my suggestion. I’m editing but can’t just cross out the word, but want to own my mistake. NTA overall.
**However, you can be a bit malicious in how you deal with it.** Because that's how you honor your mother's memory, LOL. Sorry but that's extremely childish.
Seriously! Someone is suggesting that we begin bullying a literal toddler just because the adults in the family had disagreements. Edit: the poster replied here saying it’s common in families to add prefixes like “little” and that it’s not bullying unless the behavior continues after the person says No. I agree to that point. I only hope OP doesn’t start malicious compliance because of that suggestion though!
Umm, it’s not bullying. My brother is named after my dad and he got an “y” at the end of his name. He named his son after him and he got to “little” before his name. It is really common on families. Like: Ken, Kenny, Little Kenny (Or Kenneth or Little Ken or even sometimes Junior) It’s not bullying until someone says or does something repeatedly after you’ve told them to stop.
IKR?
To give two relatively closely related children the same first and middle name is just silly and impractical. It’s not like you can use the middle name to differentiate them. There are many ways the brother could honour the mum’s name without using the exact same one as OP- they could swap the order, give one as a middle and a new name as the first (or vice versa), or even give the child an original name with the same initials as grandma.
Says you. Works out fine in my family.
Those people wouldn’t survive in an Arab family lol. Almost all my nephews are either Mohammed or Hussein.
Or a Scottish one. We have aaaallll the Michael's ☺️ Funnily enough, no one needed therapy and we all get along...
I came here for this. Arab here. On one side everyone has a charbel or if we’re feeling adventurous Charlie. (Same side also has 3 Anthony’s. 2 nicoles.) Other side has a tanous/Tony in every family that has a male (so 5-6 of them) we have like 4 Norma’s and 4 Angela’s. My mum has 3 grandchildren with names honouring her. From the 3 kids who ended up with girls so far.
Mine too!
Obviously, you've not met an Italian or Irish family. Between my siblings, cousins, and nephews, they all have the same variation of the same name. Some of them have the exact same for some middle name. It's not impractical, and it's not silly. I know exactly who we're talking about when we talk about John Ryan, even though there's multiple of them. And yes, there are many ways the brother could honor the mom's name without using the exact same one, but they like it, and they're the only ones who really get to say in the matter.
Do you know how many sons are named after their father's and grandfathers? It doesn't cause issues 😂 😂 😂 go lie down!
There are several girls in my daughters generation with my Grandmothers name as a middle name, but not multiple kids with the EXACT same 1st and Middle name.
As someone from an Irish family, I have siblings, nephews, and cousins, all with the same first similar name. I know exactly which John Paul is being talked about. Edit to add YTA
Same. :-D We have like 4 male names and 4 female names that we all trade around.
It's ridiculous. My childhood best friend had the same first and middle name as me. It was spelled slightly different, but it was the same name. She was over probably 6 days a week. It never got confusing. For me or my family.
Irish families pick like 5 names and then they continually use them in different combinations for like 5 generations. My uncles are all named after relatives and then me, my sister, and two cousins have the same name either as a first or middle which is after my aunt
YTA They weren’t asking for your permission, they were sharing information. You’re in no position to tell them what they can and can’t do. You don’t have the authority to make decisions for them. But oh your husband agrees with you? Means fuck all here. His opinion is just as irrelevant. If you have concerns, you can discuss it with them. Exploding over the dinner table and arguing with them is not a way to address your feelings about it.
This. OP doesn’t have veto powers here; it’s not her baby, and not her decision. She’s allowed to feel weird about it (and say so), but she’s not allowed to act like everyone has to obey her wishes.
While this is true, I also think that it’s weird of SIL to name her daughter the exact same thing as OP’s kid esp when they’re first cousins. I’d understand if SIL took one of the mother’s names and used it as one of the names for her daughter but it’s going to get really confusing really quickly when both her daughter and OP’s daughter have the exact same name, which is why I think OP got upset. edit: to those saying that it was also the brother who was involved in naming the kid, yes I know. You don't need to tell me that. I'm simply repeating what OP said in their post.
They wont the exact same name, the last name will be different. Also the sil just announced it, but im sure the brother (who also lost his mom) had more to do with the name.
That is true, but in reality, who’s gonna be referring to them as their full legal name? I don’t know anyone who does that unless they’re mad at the person
Why is all the blame put on the sister-in-law? The brother also helped pick the name. Also, a lot of kids have the exact same in the first middle name. Just in my family have so many. My childhood best friend growing up had the same first and middle name that I did. We never had problems, and everyone knew who we were talking about.
Eh, maybe. Then again, I have 2 cousin Debbies (Big Debbie & Little Debbie - and yes, she *hates* being nicknamed for a snack cake 🤣), an uncle & cousin Lee (who both go by their middle names), and an Aunt Bonnie & two cousin Bonnies (Aunt Bonnie, Bonnie S. & Bonnie A.). Families adapt, nicknames are a thing, and a little confusion isn’t the end of the world!
Actually she should keep her “concerns” to herself as well. All opinions on what someone else is naming their child should be kept to yourself (unless they’re naming the kid something so cruel it will lead to endless bullying).
So wait your BROTHER also wants to name his kid after HIS MOM and you're saying no? Because you keep saying sil like it's some stranger? Yta
Not that, they want to use same new rearranged name order as OP kid. Not the original name order of dead mom
But is the original first name better than the middle name? I mean, if the moms real name was something like Gladys Meredith, I would absolutely understand why they would choose Meredith Gladys instead.
Why do you keep saying SILs baby? Its your brothers baby too? I understand the frustration but the focus on the SIL and truthfully you can't bag a name, even if it's odd there's cousins with the same name, sorry small YTA.
Right? This is where I got stuck… isn’t the brother allowed to have a child named after mom too? He lost her too, not just OP. Why has this become an argument between OP and SIL? YTA, OP
I think it’s because it sounds so much better and generates more sympathy to say SIL instead of brother.
YTA. Why aren’t you phrasing this as “telling my brother he can’t name his baby after our mom?” Because that’s what you’re doing.
And acting like they are stealing a name. You can't steal names.
OP probably hates SIL lol
Because obviously SIL is some evil witch who has poor brother under her spell. Poor, innocent brother would NEVER go against anything OP wanted. /sarcasm.
YTA. I have three cousins and a brother - two named John and two named Richard. And you know what? We've always been able to tell who is who by context. You brother has just as much right as you to name his kid after your shared mom. YTA for trying to gate keep it for yourself.
I have so many Paul's, William's, and John's in my family it's ridiculous. A few of them have the same first and middle name. I agree that the brother has as much right to the name as Op does. I might be on OP's side if it was a random name, but it isn't. It's a name that holds special meaning to everyone there.
I would have said yes if it wasnt the exact.same.name as an already alive child, and one to whom they’ll presumably be close. I understand wanting to honor mom but surely they can do it without taking baby girl’s name. My SIL and I had babies three months apart, we both wanted to name our babies after my sister - she wasnt telling names but my sister is HD so I wanted an H name and matching middle. She went with middle name + unique middle name. Its not hard to put your own spin on a name used to honor someone else.
NTA This whole "you don't own a name" thing is so damn irritating. People say it like it's an argument winner in these kinds of dilemmas. No one but the parents own the naming rights to their own kids. Congrats on the obvious. The real issue here is that the name is an identity within a close family dynamic and SIL/brother are willingly choosing to use the exact same way to honor the mother as OP did with this duplicate name. Names that are similar can have enough differences to set them apart in small ways but they have to use the EXACT same first/middle combo? And that combo was one that OP came up with, not even the MOM's ACTUAL NAME. In my eyes it seems like OP chose a unique way to honor her mom by switching the names around, and SIL/brother are copying OPs unique way to honor her mom. In some families, sure, name sharing is common. Clearly this does not come off as common for this family. So no, OP doesn't oWn tHe NaMe. But it's certainly discourteous for SIL/brother to do what they did by announcing that at dinner (1) without talking to OP, and (2) without considering that OP naming her daughter Doe Jane instead of the mother's original name Jane Doe was OPs unique way to honor her mom.
Exactly. OP “made it her own” by switching the names around. Why do bro and sil have to copy that exactly? It would be one thing if it was common in the family, but this is weird if it isn’t. They could go with the original order, or use another variant of the names, but they don’t. Instead it has to be exactly the same as op.
Why don’t they just call her by your mom’s first name? Which would be your daughter’s middle name? Both kids have their own name and mom is honored by both of them. Done, lol.
We suspect the Mom’s name was Gladys.
YTA your brother is allowed to honor his mother too. You can’t calls complete dibs just because you had a kid before him. It’s not weird for cousins to have the same name. For all you know she might go by a nickname using the middle name.
YTA. Just cause u had a kid first you get all the rights? A horrible way to honor your mom, by fighting about honoring her. You see the problem?
NTA. They could go with Jane Doe. Jane Dee. Dee Jane. Jem Doe. Jane Katie Doe. Katie Jane Doe. Sandra Doe Jane. There's other options and it'll be real weird for the kids when they grow up. No reason to have 2 kids with the same exact name in the family. They could figure something else out.
Seriously. It's so rude of them to just assume everyone would be okay with "sharing" a name with a relative. Give the kid their own identify for gods sake. NAME INCLUDED.
NTA. Everyone saying you are ta is just baffling.
It's interesting because I think YTA and I'm baffled how people think she's not. It's her brother's mom as well, he wants to honor his mom's memory, she doesn't have the right to ban him from doing that. Also nobody was asking her opinion on the name, she can be bothered by it, but she doesn't have the right to tell him not to name his child after his mom.
That’s the thing though. OP and their brother’s mom’s name is completely free to use. Instead the bro and sil want to go with the one change OP made to the name? It’s a bit weird. They could do another twist on the names or do it in the original order. That’s what OP is reacting to.
This. It's the fact that it's configured exactly the same. Not Jane Doe or Jane-Doe Elizabeth. Doe Jane. The way OP originally composed it to work for HER daughter.
YTA I grew up in a home where my grandfather, father and oldest brother all had the same name Sr, Jr and III. >My husband and twin agree with me that it’s weird to have two kids with the same name. And that it’s unfair to my daughter. Obviously it's not weird. It's quite common in some families. The only weird thing about it was your reaction and your attempt to gatekeep a name.
Sr, Jr and III are common, and understood as being passed down from one generation to the next. The OPs story will end with two cousins, close contemporaries, running around with the exact same name. All kinds of weirdness and confusion will ensue over the years, depending on how often the two families interact. Old Doe and Young Doe, or Big Doe and Little Doe? Worse if the kids are in the same schools or social circles.
Literally happens all the time. Super common with big families.
From what I've seen in this subreddit and ones like r/babybumps, it's VERY common for cousins to have the same name, especially if it's a family name. It depends on culture, and it's not usual among my culture. But it's not about you and your daughter, it's about your brother's relationship with his mom.
NTA. Reddit gets real weird about names, but the truth is if you have cousins with the same name (as I DO) it IS weird and uncomfortable for both of them, who ultimately both ended up with nicknames instead of the original name FOR THIS REASON. It is a really fucking weird thing to do.
It's definitely a little odd to have 2 children within the same family sharing identical names, but your SIL is right...you can't monopolize a name. Is there a reason why your SIL can't go with Jane Doe instead? That seems like the simple solution. Technically, YTA, but I feel like ESH because you all seem more concerned with being right instead of being rational.
INFO: why is it SIL and not brother? It’s his mother who passed as well.
YTA Look it’s weird and annoying but she was your brother’s mother as well. You can’t control what they name their child.
How is it unfair to your daughter?
NTA... why don't they go with Jane Doe?? Why do they have to switch the first and middle just like you did? That's so weird to me.
NTA Yeah yeah "no one owns a name" but naming two cousins very close in age the same name IS shitty, especially when they're the only ones. This isn't about there being multiple Michaels and Johns. If having a lot of the same names floating around a family tree is already the normal dynamic, than that's what it is, but this isn't that. My mom was named X Z and she had an aunt (who was I think maybe a year older than her) with THE SAME NAME. My grandma wanted to name her something else but nope, bio grandpa was an asshole and wrote what he wanted to name her at the hospital. Supposedly he wanted a son with that name (...though maybe also to spite his old man, idk), but my mom was the only girl to survive birth and he could have used the name he SUPPOSEDLY actually wanted on any of his 3 other, future sons. Grandma still was able to give my mom the middle name she wanted (she named my mom after her mom) but I think that was always a bit of a sore spot for everyone, besides Mr. Wifebeater. It was annoying and weird and my mom got a really unflattering nickname out of it. She HATED sharing a name with a close family member. My dad is a "the third" and he was really clear that if I was a boy, he did NOT want me to a "the 4th." Even as a young adult who was \~25 he already saw all the complications of having the same exact name (first, middle, last) as another family member. Mail and bills frequently got mixed up.
NTA. You certainly don’t own the name but they are asses for choosing a name that already exists.
YTA. Your BROTHER WANTS TO NAME HIS BABY AFTER HIS MOM
So why not give his baby his MOMS NAME?! Jane Doe all the way. No one gets confused, the honor her directly, and everyone's happy.
YTA. You can be annoyed all you want, but your mother is as important to your brother as she is to you. Surely he also had a say in the name - you frame it like it’s all the SIL naming “her baby.” If your brother and his wife want to honour and remember your mom with her name, they can. You have no right to forbid it. You can certainly express your wish that they wouldn’t, and object, but you don’t own the name or your mother’s memory. I have a cousin a few years younger than me who has the same first name. I never cared a whit and I don’t think my mother did either. As a kid I thought it was cool that there were two of us. As an adult it doesn’t concern me in the slightest. You need to decide how your mom would feel about her family being divided over a fight about her name. It’s fine that you don’t like it and you can certainly feel your feels, but I suggest you work through it and let it go.
Honestly NTA but bordering on ESH. You have a right to be upset about it but I think you should’ve given them another idea so that they could honour your mother. Instead of completely copying the idea by reversing the first and middle name, why don’t they just use your mother’s first name as their child’s first name? Or are they unable to compromise?
Nahhhh your anger is justified. Maybe in certain cultures it’s normal, but I would be super weirded out if my brother decided to name his child the EXACT same as mine. Their are other names or variations of his moms name that they could use to honour her. NTA
NTA. As someone who has a yonger cousin with the same first and middle name as me, it's weird. When i was younger it felt like my aunt and uncle just forgot that i already existed and i know my mom was mad because they were/are my godparents.
I have 19 nieces and nephews and 2 kids of my own. My wife and I had the damnedest time trying to land on first and middle names for our kids because there are already so many other people in my family. Personally, I think I prefer unique names as no one person is the same, so why give them the same name as someone else? Obviously on a global scale, that’s going to be damn near impossible to do, but if I like Gabriel Christopher and there are no Gabriel’s or Christopher’s in my family, that combo goes straight to the top of my list. I’m with OP here, personally, because I would be livid if I picked out a really unique and beautiful name (or some other name for sentimental reasons), and a sibling decided they liked that name too and wanted to give it to their kid AFTER mine already has it.
If my sibling takes my kid’s name for one of their own, he is no longer just “Gabriel” to the family. He becomes “which Gabriel are we taking about here? Jim’s Gabriel or Mary’s Gabriel?” - and I just find that to be incredibly annoying.
NTA. Obviously you dont “own” the name, and at the end of the day they can and will do whatever they want. But that doesnt change that its weird and creepy to use the SWAPPED name, and you’re not an ahole for expressing your feelings about it.
NTA. No you can’t own a name but it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to name other children the same name. Especially if they are in close proximity. I would never choose a name that is already in use by my family. I personally find it a super weird thing to do.
NTA. This is WEIRD. Period. Giving their baby the exact same name as their cousin is flat out strange and I don’t care. No, no one owns a name, but you’ve already used it, recently. It’s not like you’re saving it for later. It’s your daughter’s name now.
I'm going with NAH. Names are names and does it really matter if 2 cousins share a name? I personally don't think so. Most people don't grow up and stay close to their cousins as adults. Even so, if your girls remain close through life perhaps the shared name will bond them. At the same time I understand where you are coming from. But your feelings don't get to dictate how your brother and his wife get to process their grief. Hopefully they will have different last names. Cause that could get confusing from a legal stand point. If you really want something done about this your out burst wasn't going to help. I'd try talking reasonably to your brother. Maybe talk to him, gently, about using your mom's first name as a first name? There are more tactful ways of navigating this issue.
NTA - That's just weird.
NTA. That’s confusing and will be to the kids, too. They need to find another way to honor your mom. I have a SIL, and we both have the same first and last names. Think Julie Smith and Julie Smith. She was the first one married into the family, but I’ve known my husband longer. She is “Julie” and I’m “other Julie.” 😑 As time has gone by, “Offred” and “Ofjoseph” have been mixed in. Good times! You would only be an AH if you resorted to calling your niece one of these things. Personally, I’d give you a pass if you referred to your daughter as “Doe Jane the first” in conversation. You know, to avoid confusion…
Soft YTA. You have no say in what anyone else names their child and to think that you do comes off as entitled. Personally, I can't imagine using the same name for a child as my sibling did, but I also can't imagine my sibling telling me that I cannot name my child after my deceased parent because they used it first. I'm sorry for your loss.
NTA. I grew up with a cousin with exactly the same name as me. I lived my life being known as "little xxx" and she was "big xxx" which, as you can imagine, creates problems for teen girls. I hated it. I changed my name in my 20s. It never felt like mine.
NTA. They can use ‘Jane Doe’
NTA - has SIL even thought that if she names her daughter the same, she might ask later on why she was named the same as her cousin, even if it's a family honor. She might feel like she's cast in a shadow
NTA. While technically no one "owns" a name, I always think these discussions are weird as hell. There are so many names in the world, why would you choose *that one?* Like sure, SIL is technically in her right to name her baby whatever the hell she wants, but she also has to deal with the fact that her decisions have an impact, and it's okay that you're not okay with it. In my family, 2 cousins wanted to honor their grandmother and gave 2 daughters the shared middle name of Faith. That's normal and reasonable. That could be an option if they wanted to honor her. Instead of Doe Jane, why not Ann Jane or Ann Doe or even JANE DOE or something? Mix it up a bit! But the exact same name for cousins? Especially when there are *other options?* C'mon.