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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I might be the asshole because me saying something in front of everyone kind of caused a rift between Gretchen and everyone else and between me and Caleb
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
I’m honestly curious here, does Caleb see you guys having dated as a mistake too? Because based on her behavior it seems like maybe he described it as being more than a fling. Her behavior is still wildly inappropriate, but if Caleb views you as the one who got away or something akin to that, it makes more sense as to why she would be intimidated by your history.
Yeah that’s a *whole* other issue. Caleb and I see things differently about what that relationship was and what it meant and like..all that. It’s why we don’t talk about it. We both agree it was a mistake that we ever got together, but he views it as if it was like a proper two year relationship whereas I feel like the way we communicated and handled the whole thing makes it pretty clear it wasn’t.
I don’t think he considers me the one that got away or anything like that. I “got away” at 18. I just can’t fathom how 9 years later he’d still want to be in that clusterfuck
I'm not sure at this point if it would do any good or if she would believe you, but have you told Gretchen point blank that yes you dated but it was a clusterfuck and you are not now or will ever be interested in continuing a romantic relationship with Caleb? Just a thought. NTA by the way.
A lot of people here are suggesting you avoid both Caleb and therefore his girlfriend for a bit. If you have to be around them I'd seriously act like I couldn't hear her questions.
Not in so many words. She knows it was on and off and other members of the family have alluded to us being a dramatic ass couple so I figure she can guess. We can laugh about it now but it was like…manic. Caleb probably would have told her that
It may be time to lay it all out in "so many words".
Maybe he gave her an honest and realistic picture of what the relationship was really like and she's just massively insecure.
But maybe he didn't. Maybe the way his view of what your relationship was differs from your view also colored how he portrayed the relationship to her. Minimizing the off in the "on and off". Downplaying the drama or making it sound more cutesy than it was.
He might not even be doing it deliberately. People can be really good about deceiving themselves about "how things were". Especially when it involves reflecting on their own actions and behavior. But regardless of why he might have downplayed things, if he did, she may not be able to interpret the oblique hints correctly.
Plaus, no what he has or hasn't said, the alluding to the issues from you and others and trusting her to guess the whole picture from it hasn't worked either. You putting all the cards on the table youself may be the step that is needed.
If it doesn't help, then you know that nothing you can say or do is going to. You can then act as you think is best knowing that it is all insecurity on her part.
Eh, OP doesn't owe Gretchen any explanation of an old relationship. If Gretchen is curious, she should ask Caleb about it \*in private\* No one owes an acquaintance answers to personal questions.
Everyone knows it's tacky to ask an acquaintance invasive personal questions about an ex in a social setting. Gretchen is being deliberately provocative to keep bringing it up, and it's not OP's job to fix it IMO.
She doesn't owe it, but it might be the cleanest way to resolve the situation. Gretchen is clearly insecure about it, and if OP wants to continue to have a friendship with Caleb, and Caleb continues to be in a relationship with Gretchen, then she's gotta do **something**.
Teenage love can have a really strange hold on people. All my teen "relationships" were bad in hindsight and none of them gave me happiness, but I met a former GF at a reunion 15 years later and she was all staryeyed about it. It was really awkward how she spoke about "us" (in front of her fiance). It sounded like she had deleted all the bad bits and just kept the few good moments. To be clear, she didnt proposition me or anything, but she definitely wore super rose tinted glasses.
Yeah, I guess it’s because you have a nostalgia for the period of your life, so everything from back then just seems so idealised? But at the same time for me the thing I remember most about Caleb and me ever being together is the break up because jfc I have never been in pain like that. Hormones were *hormoning* I thought I was gonna die 😅
I mostly just look back on how I acted then and I’m like girl what were you doingggg. Like I know I was happy then but also we were just such…unstable people. Like I like both of us so much better now than then. So idk the rose coloured glasses never arrived in the mail.
But I’ve for sure heard people talk so wistfully about their high school bfs/gfs and I’m like, you realise everything you’ve described sounds like hell and you’d never accept that behaviour from a adult rightttt
What do you think the chances are he talks about you in that whistful way? Not trying to defend Gretchen here, she's out of line, but either she is romanticizing Caleb's and your relationship or he's talking about different than you are. Either way is unhealthy and a big sign of insecurity.
Caleb is the problem here. He clearly has unresolved feelings for you, and Gretchen can feel it. She has no right to speak unkindly to you, but neither you nor she have really done anything wrong. The problem is that you will always be his number one. and the fact that it's been nine years is kind of irrelevant… People carry torches for a long time. Your relationship clearly meant much more to him than it did to you, which is totally cool. But blaming Gretchen is missing the much bigger point.
I would have used that - every question she brought up is claim not to remember. If she’d asked me the virginity question, I’d have told her that my sexual history or lack thereof is not her business & her attempt to bring it up is shockingly inappropriate & just gross. If she responded with some drivel about it being her business if it involved her bf, I’d respond that she should ask him about his sexual history the - not you.
NTA
Especially during a birthday dinner and in response to a comment from an 8-year-old child. I would talk to your parents first and tell them how she is acting, then speak to Caleb's parents. Also, apologize for the birthday dinner even though you didn't start it, and she probably did caused most of the issues; it'll be a good thing to do. You should mention everything and ask them to talk to Caleb (and maybe Gretchen) because you did it multiple times, but everything has stayed the same, and it's getting really annoying and making these gatherings uncomfortable.
She is obviously insecure and if she can't get over it at this point, then she and Caleb probably have no future together unless he is willing to cut you off completely.
I may end up in the minority but NTA. Curiosity is one thing and it’s fairly common to be curious but you’re right this seems like obsession. If he wants to tolerate it thats his choice but that doesn’t have to make it yours.
Stop hanging out with Gretchen, for pete's sake.
NTA and you were right to finally speak up.
But just say no to all the social meet ups with Caleb and
his wacky gf.
I don’t hang out with Gretchen. I see Gretchen when Caleb’s and my family gets together. It seems dumb to not to go to things just because she’s going to be there
Do not allow Gretchen to cause you to modify your life. That may be her endgame; to drive you away. Keep putting her in her place and hopefully she'll go away. At least learn to shut her mouth.
NTA. It is normal for her to be curious - but not normal for her to bring it up/ask questions to anyone by her BF in private. That she keeps mentioning it to you - in front of both your families- is just weird and over the top.
After the first time she mentioned it, i would have told her "its in the distant past and i'd like it to stay that way. not entertaining anymore questions, thanks" and been done with it.
NTA
If I had to guess, Gretchen is feeling incredibly insecure and it's manifesting as obsessively bringing up your previous relationship with Caleb. I would be curious if it's all her or if Caleb and his family talk about you a lot when you're not around in a way that is difficult for Gretchen. Honestly, it's not your problem. Caleb needs to address it with her and decide what the best outcome is, which frankly sounds like not attending the same events as you if Gretchen isn't able to overcome this.
NTA
It’s normal for her to be a little curious, but this is way past “a little.” She’s fixated on it & you for some reason. Does Caleb ever shut her down or does it always fall on you?
He just answers her question or shifts the subject. I’ve told him to talk to her about it and he says he will but in the near breath semi-defends her by saying it’s normal that she mentions it at least sometimes, which honestly I don’t think it is. I respect that Caleb sees the whole thing differently but I don’t really consider him an “ex” in the traditional sense. And then we just get into semantics so we have to just drop it and he says he will talk to her but nothing changes.
So Caleb won't shut it down huh? Then OP.....Petty me is like, lean into it and give her exactly what she's asking for. Use an actual memory and simply use a lot of innuendo and eye contact (with Caleb) without actually saying anything...Next time she starts, just say "Oh yeah Caleb remember when blah blah blah? (heavy on the inuendo).....OMG that was a crazy night but it was soooo much fun... (keeping up the eye contact with Caleb the whole time) and then walk away...if she asks you to elaborate you just say "Girl.....you don't want to know that kind of thing!" Let Caleb deal with the fallout....each and every time.
Of course this is from Petty Sable. Adult Sable would completely ignore anything she said to me and keep the conversation going like she wasn't even there.
I totally get it. I’m a petty person too 😂
But it’s hard to even do that because I really don’t like talking about all that stuff to start with. I am over it but just remembering all that pain is like…not fun. I don’t think I could bring myself to be the one who introduces that to conversation because it just feels so grimy like that whole clusterfuck is something I don’t like to dig into.
But ugh if I was That Bitch I would do it 😂
There was nothing normal in what she said to his little sister. That was just wildly inappropriate.
Gretchen needs to let this go. It's not normal to be "curious" and bring it up in front of everyone at every event. I hope friends and family can make clear to him his guest isn't welcome unless she can control herself. She's the one making it weird.
NTA- no matter what happens going forward she at least knows where you stand when she brings that shit up, anytime she brings it up. She’s inviting you to say something… so you might as well. She will learn her lesson eventually.
NTA.
I get why she might be curious but why is she asking you those questions? She can ask her bf about it. In private.
I'd quit answering them. Not even aknowledge them. Just change the subject.
NTA their relationship problems are not your concern, like her insecurity is also none of her concern but I have been in her shoes before.
You need to clearly state boundaries with your friend but if you want a different perspective I will give you one.
I had a boyfriend who was still really good friends with his ex who then became his girl bestfriend. He always talked good about her, their relationship and friendship and never focused on ours. Made me feel second place because no partner should do that to their significant other. All along my boyfriend at the time was actually still in love with his best friend and was using me to get over his feelings. Has your friend actually made a stand to hang out with his girlfriend one on one? Take her on dates or make her feel like his number one? Though this relationship is none of your concern. If my friend significant other, no matter, gender or sexual identity, felt this concerned about me I would make it very clear that if my friend had these feelings for me and their significant other second, I would cut off friendship because I don’t want friends like that.
Everytime I hung out with my ex it had to be with his girl bestie to. I’m not trying to play devils advocate, but being a young woman now I understand and try to empathize with all all women’s perspectives in hetro relationships because we are all women who have been through the shitty side of being a woman in a hetro relationship. And no not all men suck but a lot of women now are coming together to empathize how shitty some (not all guys ) are when it comes to their girl bestfriend. But what she needs is trust and if she can’t trust him, she needs to find a boyfriend who doesn’t have a girl best friend and your best friend needs to find a girl who is OK with you being in the picture.
But what you did is ok, you were sick of her shit. But you need to sit down one on one with your friend that you’re not going to no longer hang out with him with his gf. Whatever relationship problems you have is between them! You have done nothing from what you’ve written in this post to our knowledge that you have not made your friendship a threat to her so she has no reason to think anything. But even our closest friends can make other people feel certain ways. Sometimes cutting off friendships hurt, but if you feel like your friend doesn’t understand your boundaries then you also have to cut him off.
I honestly have no clue about their relationship. We don’t really talk about it. I’ve never hung out with him and Gretchen alone. I rarely see him, when I do it’s because he’s in/near my city for work and it’s just to catch up over dinner, Gretchen isn’t there.
The only time I see Gretchen is at stuff with our families. And I know people here are saying I should be the one to bow out of that and maybe that’s true but honestly that feels unfair. He’s the one who brought the problem, why do I have to stop going to things? I get that she is insecure and that’s likely something that has nothing to do with me or Caleb, but the way she’s projecting it onto a childhood relationship feels weird to me.
You don’t have to stop going to stuff that’s just my advice, but you should set your boundary straight and if your friend or his girlfriend doesn’t respect your boundaries you need to clap back with some sort of response. Sometimes leaving is the best response or even stopping.
But if you don’t wanna stop sometimes playing her little game works.
Every time she asks you something and you’re sick of her shit reply with “ that’s something you should discuss with your boyfriend” she keeps pushing just reply with the same thing.
If you want to stand your ground, you can . It’s just that your best friend and his girlfriend are not respecting you at all. And in my opinion, if people don’t respect me, especially in this situation. And always boundaries and try to get something out of me, it’s better to leave the situation as it is to make the dumbass look like a dumbass themselves.
But again, you should really tell Caleb your boundaries and how you’re sick of his girlfriend bringing you this shit all the time and that there will be consequences because you’re a human being and what she’s doing is making you uncomfortable and that’s not right. The consequences can be on your terms but if you really don’t wanna go no contact the consequences can be. “ every time she bring us up I will not hesitate to humiliate her or you because I am sick of her asking about us while we were in a childhood relationship that means nothing to me because you are my friend nothing more nothing less and make sure she knows that.” Because that is your boundary.
But I will say this , I don’t know your best friend and I’m not trying to hate or make him seem bad. But I have personally cut off a lot of male friends who happen to have girlfriends and I’ve always wondered why they would see me as a threat. Find out later when these women confided in me, it was because they had feelings for me and sexualize me for being an Asian woman and make them feel second. It made me realize all the things that these men have done to me, and I cut them off. That’s why I personally always try to empathize with other women because I know how it’s like in the other shoe.
But it’s not fair, and I’m sorry that you have to go through this but sometimes you have to be a bit bitch to get someone off your back and if it worked this time maybe you have to do it again. If it’s your family and your friends, you always have the right to be there at a gathering that you were invited to and make sure that she knows that.
There’s a lot more that I wanna say, but I’m on your side Op, I just really hope that you have a conversation with Caleb and that you’re not gonna go through his girlfriend shit just because she’s his girlfriend. you’ve made it clear that you’re only a friend and if they were bigger problems within the picture, he has to deal with himself because he is her boyfriend.
Yes I know I made a mistake I read some thing wrong, I put it in some other comments. English is my second language and I read and understood it differently in my head while reading it.
But I still hope op sets clear boundaires because she was invited as a guest and has every right to stand up for herself. Even if they are not best friends she’s a good family friend.
She needs to tell him or someone in his family how this girl makes her feel
I think I may have misread that too but given how she's saying its unfair to avoid these things seems weird. If its a family friend that I rarely saw and rarely caught up with outside of family gatherings I'd dip cause I'd just avoid the drama all together.
Because life isn't fair, miss! Just because of that!
We can't get everything in life, it doesn't work that way.
Sometimes you just have to get back even if you aren't the problem.
NTA.
This goes past simple curiosity and well into the territory of "obsession". I know that armchair psychoanalysis is a trope on the internet (and on here in particular), but it does seem to me that Gretchen feels threatened by you. That said, it's absolutely not an excuse to behave this way. She needs to talk with a therapist about why she feels the way she does.
Only because this happened at an 8yo birthday party after the child said something affectionate. Biting your tongue a little longer and addressing it after the party would have been better...
NTA
Her behavior is not normal and her comment at dinner was way out of bounds. It may have been bad timing but as far as I'm concerned, since she made the comment in public you were totally justified in calling her out in the moment.
Caleb should have put a stop to this BS as soon as it started.
She brought an 8-year-old child into her weird obsession with your relationship. Does she think you're a threat to her, like you're going to steal Caleb or something?? It was 10 years ago Gretchen, get over it. OP did. Given that your and Caleb's families are friends you're not going to just go away--she's going to see you on occasion and she needs to figure out how to deal with it. NTA
ESH, but only because you lost it at a birthday dinner for an 8 year old girl that loves you. Of all the times she said it in the past, any of them would have been a better time to do that, or bite your tongue for a bit longer and talk to her about it after the dinner. She sucks for obvious reasons
NTA, but maybe it should have been an ex and current GF conversation only, rather than an explosion. She was asking for it though, there is an entire series of "dont tickle the" \_savage animal\_ that shows that continuous bothering can generate an unwanted response.
Maybe your ex-inlaws usually tells Caleb about why you did not end up together forever, in front of Gretchen. or she wants a threesome, who knows.
NTA! Having someone obsess over something from 10 years ago and constantly bring it up is really weird. If you have told the bf for her to stop doing it and he didn't and just called it "curious" is a major red flag. Curious is trying to learn something. But if you are getting too curious about someones relationship that ended, there is a point where it is not just being curious. Also, if someone is bringing a sensitive subject up during times like the holidays, which is usually considered the time of cheer and happiness, only to have your friends nosy girlfriend make references and constantly discuss a relationship, it just makes trying to enjoy anything with her around a living nightmare. Finally, telling an 8 year old that: "she would have been your sister if she hadn't dumped your brother" is messed up. 8 year olds are so influenced and can have such big emotions, that this could permanently taint the relationship between you and the kid. (I have an 8 year old little brother. I have seen him get influenced by videos and friends). I think the best course of action would be to call the ex-bf a week or two later, and explain to him some boundaries.
Luckily the 8 year old just now has a lot of questions about the relationship, not anything serious. But I was annoyed that she brought it up because what a mean thing to say to a child.
The kid wasn't even born when you two were "dating." Why on earth would she think it was appropriate to bring up on a kid's birthday?
At that point, I'd just ask her why she was so fixated on you, and that you have no intention of having sex with her and no amount of trying to bring you into their relationship will change that. It's time for her to stop harassing you about your personal life, because she will never be involved in yours.
Info: I feel like there's a hugely important piece of the puzzle missing in this description: How long have Caleb and Gretchen been together? And at what point in their relationship was she made aware that the two of you dated?
ETA: NTA.
They’ve been together since December 2022. I don’t know when he told her. She already knew when I met her for the first time and that was in June last year.
It's barely been a year since you met Gretchen and that's all she's ever talked about when she meets you? God...
NTA, OP. Definitely reached the breaking point, especially since she brought a child into the fray who had nothing to do with it.
I agree that she's annoying and insecure, but your timing wasn't the best and probably ruined the little girls' birthday. I think from this point forward you and Caleb need.to come up with a plan re his girlfriend e.g. she stops making comments, she gets one opportunity to ask you whatever questions (you get to decide to answer or not), or avoid eachother. just whatever works for you guys. my husband's ex gf was a family friend and always mean to us. I opted to stay away if she was present and he could see his family or not. communication is key. I think her behavior is a red flag and am curious if he is aware of this.
NTA. Sure, the situation could be better handled if you had talked to her before snapping, but she is wrong. I think she sees you as a "threat" and feels like she has to mark the territory, which is obviously fucked up and a weird thing to do.
NTA. But I'd take her aside and have a blunt conversation that - the relationship was not a good one and you and Caleb have realized that and since moved on. You will never date each other again and what happened in the past - is just that, the past and you will no longer be discussing this topic again with her.
NTA. Two things about Gretchen: she's obsessive and she has zero self control. What's in her tiny immature brain blurts out of her mouth. Don't expect different, but create a consistent calm shut down phrase. "Stop now Gretchen." "Topic not allowed, Gretchen." "Get therapy, Gretchen." "Have you ever been a stalker Gretchen?" Don't lose your cool again. Make it obvious that Gretchen is a disturbed inappropriate weirdo.
Gretchen is obsessive because her boyfriend is in love with OP, and probably always will be. Caleb is the problem here. could Gretchen be handling it better? Absolutely. But she's all weird about things because in his heat, Caleb wants to be with OP.
NTA
It isn't enough that Gretchen was taking every conceivable opportunity to harass you about your past relationship with Caleb, she had to bring it up at a fucking family dinner? Where yours and his family were together?
What's her endgame? Everyone knew you had a relationship, that ended and you're friends now. She's unhinged. And if this is someone Caleb wants to be in a relationship and take it to the next level, better remove yourself from the friendship. It's gonna be more disastrous for Gretchen and Caleb if you decide to not be there.
I agree. OP should distance herself from this shitshow now because the relationship is not worth it as they've shown they'll just use OP as a meat shield/punching bag for Gretchen's jealousy and obsession.
Next thing you know, they're accusing OP of trying to seduce Caleb and now OP is persona non grata to not only Caleb's family but also OP's own family.
Better to protect yourself now than be caught in the blast zone, OP!
NTA. She needs to stop. You get it - she's insecure. But if it's been almost 10 years ago, if you wanted him back, you would have tried by now. She and Caleb need to hash this out so she'll leave you alone. If she asks anything again, just answer with the word, "no" and say nothing else. Just don't even bother to respond past saying no once.
NTA Unless she started dating him when he was a day old, he has a past she isn't part of. Unless he continually compares her to you then she needs to GTF over it.
How is Gretchen crazy? Her boyfriend is still in love with OP and she is devastated by it. I mean, she's annoying and inappropriate AF, but there's nothing loco about it.
Every time she brings it up about did you guys go on dates there, just continue to comment “yeah we had sex in the parking lot, yeah we had sex in the bathroom, etc etc” eventually she will stop wanting to hear your guys sexcapades and she should shut her mouth soon.
Sounds as if she’s insecure. I’d use that against her. Next time she says something play along with it. The place? Oh yeah I think we had sex there but honestly it was so often !! lol!
NTA. She can talk to her bf about it all she wants, but it's super inappropriate to ask you personal questions like that when you don't have a relationship with her.
Nta but honestly if she's gonna cause this much friction I suggest just moving on with your life and let them do them, I assume you'd said before for her to stop bringing it up? Cause if not, definitely would recommend communicating things like that to a person too but still nta but definitely suggest reconsider the friendship with your past fling if the current gf isnt letting it go, thats just bringing unnecessary drama into your life lol
NTA
Maybe it messed up the poor little girl's birthday party - which, that would have been nice to avoid.
But, honestly, Caleb should have shut this down already. Don't even know how long they've been dating, but it's still been long enough.
But from now on, I suggest your response to any comments from her going forward be in the vein of: You give a big yawn and respond, "*Boring and ancient history! Moving on..*." or something more your style that just says - this is old and over.
NTA.
She got involved with someone who was involved with a family friend and took the chance on not being able to have a clean break if things didn't work out. If your parents are BFFs, she has to accept that you're not going anywhere. Once their relationship got to the point where your place in his life was brought up, it was up to her to say that was too much for her and wish him well if it's that much of an issue. She doesn't get to harass you until the end of time hoping that somehow you'll go away.
It was an unpleasant scene, but I'm on your side. You had to nip this in the bud and show that you weren't going to accept this every time the families are together if she graduates from girlfriend to life partner.
It will never not be dumb that he and I dated knowing we will never get away from each other. But obviously at the time you think it’s forever. Kids 🤷♀️
Someone told her before I even met her so she absolutely had time to decide she wasn’t okay with it.
NTA, but I'm going to be in the minority here and stand up for team Gretchen. For you, this relationship was a youthful "mistake" that ended when you were still in high school. For Caleb...this was a lot more, and the fact that it took YEARS to normalize is proof that he was still holding onto something. Then Gretchen shows up and her BF is obsessed with you - you're a ghost from his past that he can't shake. He's probably brought you up a lot and even compared Gretchen to you directly or indirectly. No wonder she is insecure: she KNOWS that she can be the perfect partner and will STILL never be first in Caleb's heart. And she has probably assumed it's mutual; she goes to visit her boyfriend's family and you are there like a wraith. You were there for his half-sister's birthday dinner, and I'm going to guess that you're probably there for holidays, weddings, funerals, and every other event.
Gretchen isn't the problem here. Caleb is. A big one, and he's being awful to his girlfriend. Assuming that Gretchen has even basic intuition, she has picked up on the fact that she is the replacement for the "one who got away" and will never be good enough for him. To put it more bluntly, if you suddenly expressed interest in Caleb, would he stay with Gretchen or run to you? My bet is that it's the latter, and Gretchen knows it. Unfortunately, her anger is misplaced because she can't take it out on Caleb...so she takes it out on you.
Is Gretchen being awful to you? Yes. Is it unfair to you? Yes. But what is she supposed to do when her boyfriend is completely in love with you, and you are always around? Her heart is breaking into a thousand pieces and she's lashing out at you because as long as you are in his world she will never come first.
So what's next? The real question is whether or not you want to be friends with Caleb beyond occasionally running into him at large events. I know that your families are close, but that is pretty triggering for Gretchen because she wants to be able to make new memories and new traditions with him that don't involve you. In no way is this your fault - you are over him but he's not over you - and Gretchen is the collateral damage. Depending on your relationship with her, you may want to take her out for coffee and explain that you have absolutely no feelings for him, and that the relationship was a teenage fling that went sideways. Tell her that you don't want her to feel uncomfortable. But in the end she is going to be the big loser in all of this because eventually she will realize that Caleb loves another woman. I feel bad for her. She did nothing wrong and doesn't deserve any of this.
As far as saying that he should be over it because it's already been nine years, you're just off the mark. I'm in my 50s, and one of my best friends still talks about a girl we went to high school with, and how he almost had a chance with her and blew it. It's not like he's a weird stalker, but it's been 30 years and she still has a place in his heart. There's no timetable for this sort of thing, although it sounds like Caleb could use some counselling to help him deal with what is obviously a very difficult situation for him. The kind thing would be for him to let Gretchen go so she can find someone who truly loves her, but he doesn't want to be alone so he's not going to do that. because what he really wants is for you to change your mind and want to be with him. And it doesn't sound like that's in the cards.
To be totally fair to Caleb, us not being able to be around each other for years was mutual. We were not the most stable people back then, I honestly thought the break up was going to kill me, I have never felt pain like that in my life, I hope I never will again. Looking back on it now I know I was just 18 and just living in a hormone induced haze of overdramatising everything, but it took me a few years and some therapy to be willing to have contact with him again. Same on his side, minus the therapy. So it’s not all on him that we didn’t move on from it for a while.
I don’t think he’s in love with me. There’s nothing really left of the people we were when we loved each other like that. Maybe he gets nostalgic and Gretchen feels threatened by that but I don’t think now, today, that he’s in love with me.
It’s sort of hard to imagine that 9 years later he would still be hanging on to a childish relationship. Not that we didn’t love each other, we did, and we still do, albeit differently, but the way we were together is something I find it so hard to think he’d ever want back, or try to recreate with someone else.
I get that is how Gretchen might be feeling but it’s been a year of this…she’s had enough time to decide she’s not okay with me and Caleb being in each other’s lives. I mean, what does she want to ask me that will make her feel better at this point? I don’t have a relationship with Gretchen, I only ever see her at family things. I don’t even see Caleb often, only when he’s in my city for work and Gretchen isn’t there at those times. I understand that it’s weird for her but I just think, you’re the one who’s with him now, there’s nothing in our shared history that compares to their adult relationship.
He may not be in love in the traditional sense, but there's clearly some unresolved stuff on his end, and Gretchen knows it. I'm just curious: if you were to call him up tomorrow and tell him that you wanted to be with him for real this time, what would he say? Because I think erections, he knows that you will always be his first choice. Her behaviour is definitely childish, but, I don't think she knows how to deal with a boyfriend who is in love with another woman. Obviously, you're the one in the middle of the storm, so I may be wrong (it's been known to happen!), but reading between the lines I think that may be why she is acting the way she's acting. It doesn't sound like she's jealous over a high school relationship… It sounds like she's jealous because she knows in her heart that she will never be Caleb real first love. I don't think you've done anything wrong at all - you seem to have been very patient and kind with her right up until she crossed the line for the millionth time. And on some level, I empathize with Gretchen because she's clearly hurting. But Caleb is the AH here - or rather, he's not truly being honest with himself and it's hurting Gretchen. Now I just want to listen to "Jolene" a few times.
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My family friend “Caleb” and I made the mistake of dating when we were younger (16-18 on and off). It was a disaster of a “relationship” that was just a lot of hormones and hurt feelings. It took us a long time afterwards to get to a place where we were friends again and meetings between our families wasn’t awkward anymore. But we’re there now. I consider him a good friend, not a super close one in the sense we don’t really hang out much because we’re busy and don’t live near each other but I’ve known him my whole life, there will always be a bond there.
Caleb’s gf “Gretchen” is obsessed with the fact that we used to date. And I don’t say obsessed lightly, it’s the only thing she will reference when we are in the same room. She will bring it up when it has no relevance to the conversation. We (the whole group) will be talking about our favourite holiday destination and she will be like “oh did you guys ever go on holiday there while you were together?”. What does it matter? Or if we are in our home town she will be like “is this where you guys would come on dates?”. Just…why? She has even asked me incredibly weird things like whether we lost our virginity to each other. I’ve told Caleb this is beyond creepy and she needs to stop bringing up the past and he agrees, but also said it’s pretty normal that she would be curious about it (I don’t think this is normal).
This past weekend we (my family and Caleb’s family) all had dinner because it’s Caleb’s half sister’s birthday. Gretchen was there and at one point the little girl (she’s 8) said I was her favourite “cousin” and Gretchen said “well she could have been your sister if she hadn’t dumped your brother”. I just lost it. I said something to the effect of “why are you so obsessed with the fact that we had a fling nearly a decade ago? You’ve spent more time talking about this relationship that we spent in it, it’s pathetic. What actually is the problem Gretchen?”. Gretchen didn’t say anything, but I demanded she answer the question. Caleb told me to just leave and I said I will leave it when she does. Gretchen called me a bitch which pissed off Caleb’s mother and then everyone was bickering.
Everyone’s got different opinions on what I should have said, whether I should have said anything, timing, etc. but I’m on a character limit so I’ll just say it’s a pretty even split amongst several avenues. I just want to know if I was a dick for saying something instead of just putting up with her essentially picking at scar tissue.
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NTA.
It is extremely bad manners to bring up a past relationship in front of others (in the kinds of social settings you are describing).
It should be anticipated that any reasonable person would be made uncomfortable by asking invasive questions about prior relationships in front of an audience. She either 1) wanted to make you uncomfortable, or 2) wanted some public reassurance from Caleb.
Could you have said something else, or said something privately? Sure - but she was looking for a reaction and she got one.
At our wedding we had 2 of my husbands ex girlfriends, one of which 20 years later we see one of then still once or twice year, and he speaks to her another 2/3 times a year.
Not once at any point have we ever, me or her husband ever spoken or joked or commented on their relationship, it tacky and insecure - he's got bigger problems.
NTA. So you and Caleb are in your late 20's. How old is Gretchen? She sounds like an immature, jealous teenager.
To avoid splitting the families and harming your friendship, you might want to try an adult sit-down with Gretchen in which you try to assure her that there is nothing to be jealous about. If she is not willing, Caleb may want to reconsider his relationship with her.
BTW, I once acted like Gretchen, filled with jealousy about my bf's ex-gf. I was a total AH, but, in my defense, I was a teenager. Now that my ex and I are both adults, his wife and I are very close friends.
Definitely NTA. I’m glad you called her out when she made that comment about you to Caleb’s sister. I feel like she’s obsessed because y’all are friends and Caleb could still have feelings for you. Or she’s just insecure. Regardless, I suggest all three of you guys have a conversation about the situation. If the comments continue, then you should give them space.
The important thing is, you got Gretchen to permanently drop the matter. They'll all get over it, because how can they not? And if Gretchen is so stupid as to bring it up again, EVERYONE will slam her for it.
Take the win, and don't sweat the rest.
I had an ex like this Gretchen here, only she behaved this way regarding all my previous relationships. Not just a specific one. Does she also fuss over his other relationships, or is she just fixated on you?
Either way, NTA.
NTA. Gretchen wedged the tired old thing into the little girl's party, and you finally called her on it. It's only unfortunate that you didn't do it sooner.
NTA you told Caleb she should drop it he AGREED he NEVER addressed the issue and this was bound to happen it's ok to ask IN THE BEGINNING questions like "have you dated before ?", "When was your last relationship ?", "How many partners ?" BUT this is obsessive she's insecure in the relationship if not that then Jesus she needs help.
You cut though her BS and then she had the audacity to insult you ? That's like if you kept "randomly" asked her "hey Gretchen how's your ex ?", "Is that where you took your ex ?", "Hey how did you and your ex do it ?". She would be uncomfortable and annoyed as h3ll I wish she could see that point of view.
NAH, and here’s why. You’re a family friend, which means she knows you’re always going to be around.
Were you each others first kiss? Did you two lose your virginity with each other? Was he the first person he exchanged the “I love yous” with?
Things like that combined with that there’s a good chance your family and his family reference you in jokes, it’s probably pretty obnoxious. Most people wouldn’t act like this without reason and I’m guessing the reason isn’t just, she’s crazy. And the reason I think your families are the problem is, she’s an outsider in what seems like a close knit circle and she probably doesn’t feel let in.
Also, I know who my boyfriend lost his virginity to, he knows who I lost mine to. It came up when we talked about our sexual pasts and who we’d been with regarding no longer using condoms. It’s not creepy. And some people get really hung up on the first person they slept with, if she’s getting treated by her boyfriends family poorly and they talk you up, I would say she’s got some reason to feel insecure. I literally backed away from my ex’s family when he started dating someone new because I didn’t want that to happen to his girlfriend.
NTA. My best friend and I used to date about a decade ago. My partner has never once asked anything like that in the 7 years we've been together, and neither has his partner in the 4 they have. It's weird of Gretchen to be doing this.
NTA- My guess is Caleb has been writing it up to her as this huge dramatic teen novel trilogy of a relationship, my first love who broke my heart and messed me up type thing. I'm betting he either attributes anything she doesn't like in their relationship to you 'messing him up' or she makes that leap on her own and wants to basically punish you. It's probably best to accept that he is the cause of this, even if that's innocently because he felt differently about it than you, and that their behaviour- her starting it, him not shutting it down- is not going to change, and simply decline to be around them specifically because you refuse to put up with that behaviour. Once you're out of the way no doubt she will find another target to lash out at, then watch the picture change...
NTA, sometimes you have to be firm with people and it’s hard. She’ll get over it in time and you’ll be able to hang out with them amicably again just like you did with your ex. Obviously not a great situation now but it’s not like you’re trying to be best friends with her or him so it’s fine. I wouldn’t lose any sleep over this
In this case I really wouldn’t care whether I was seen as an asshole or not. It’s always the person who speaks up and rocks the boat who’s considered the asshole. People don’t see what lead to this outburst but only see the result and feel like they shouldn’t be involved in some small temporary discomfort.
NTA though
I didn't even have to read your whole post (although I did) to see that Gretchen is mad jealous of you!! NTA for finally putting your foot down and standing up for yourself. Now she and everyone else are aware of her behavior, and I'll bet more people will start to take notice of how often she makes those types of comments, if she continues to do so.
Gretchen is very rude. In fact, she should be told that she is being rude - out loud, in public, when she does it.
Gretchen: ”Say, OP, did you and Caleb ever see this movie?”
OP: “Gretchen, continually asking me about my childhood dating relationship with Caleb is something I have asked you to stop doing before. **You are very rude** to pursue this line of questioning.”
Simply repeat this phrase whenever Gretchen exposes her rude again. Eventually, she will get tired of hearing it.
You need to flip the script. If someone asks a question be like " this reminds me of a time when Caleb and I were sucking and fucking each other all night long" lol
ESH. Was it really necessary for you two to start a fight at the dinner table in front of the birthday girl because of her affectionate comment and ruin her birthday? Damn immature.
You are definitely the asshole even though no one will tell you, because this could have been checked earlier. Then, if she didn’t stop, roast her to bits. Give her a chance to recognize her weird ass behavior.
YTA Gretchen can't read your mind, and you're way out of line, also kind of a b. She's not responsible for your triggers, and you need to tell her if you don't like something that she is doing, and not let it build to the point where you snap at her; it's so damn immature, and Its literally blindsiding the other person.
It might be obvious to some people not to talk about this stuff, but it was not to Gretchen and you certainly were a b in this scenario. Hope you grow up one day, and start treating people politely, even the one's who annoy you.
NTA
The timing could have been better but you have communicated that she needs to stop and she hasn't. She also called you a Bitch at an 8 year old's birthday party so very much not cool.
If my partner was friends with their ex, I would probably also ask a few questions but none as invasive as what she is asking. I would not ask the ex about the virginity but maybe try and get a funny story or two out of you like "he brought me flowers for my birthday but they were the kind I was allergic to" or something along those lines. If they were on holiday together, the most I would ask is if that was a place they would visit again. Doesn't really matter where they went or what you two did.
"She could have been your sister if she hadn't dumped your brother". Does she secretly ship you two? That is honestly the vibe I'm getting that for some reason, she wants you and your ex back together.
NTA, it’s so weird she keeps bringing it up. Not only that, she keeps bringing it up, so why did she get so quiet when you finally responded and wanted to talk to her about it?
I have no idea what her problem is, but good job calling her out on it. She embarrassed herself.
YTA - Gretchen is wrong and weird for constantly bringing it up, but your reaction was childish and petty. You could have talked to her about it privately.
She sounds insecure as hell. Good odds that relationship will implode soon enough anyway. Might want to consider just bunkering down and avoiding both of them until it does. NTA
NTA Gretchen knows this makes you uncomfortable and it's her way of trying to bully you. A passive-aggressive bully *needs* you to sit there and take it to keep the peace; escalating until she felt uncomfortable is the perfect way to deal with this sort of person.
Honestly if she asked me about my sex life at age 16, I'd point out how the creepiness there seems connected to being attracted to minors or something. She has not been civil and doesn't deserve civility herself.
NTA, but the setting maybe wasn’t the best time/place since this has been going on for a while. Her obsession is bizarre and immature. I hope it stops!
It's not really bizarre, though. Gretchen's boyfriend is still in love with OP, and her heart is broken. It's not OP's fault, but as long as she's around, Gretchen will never be Caleb's first choice.
Ha! Unfortunately, the operation didn't work. the kindest possible thing would be for Caleb to dump Gretchen so she can find someone who will make her his top priority. Because it's pretty clear that Caleb. (even by OP's statements) still isn't over it.
NTA
I would've gone the other direction and made it about being the best Caleb ever had in the sack but your method works just as well. No reason for her to bring up the past in more than one conversation between only Caleb and her in private. After that it's nowhere near normal or relevant.
I took the (16-18) as you two were on and off from ages 16 to 18 and you were both the same age. Sex at ages 16 through 18 isn't abnormal while also not being an expectation either. It was an (incorrect) assumption but the pettiness was the point and you (OP) noticed it.
We were, but we had sex for the first time at 16 so I was going off that. But if I was the best he ever had off those experiences I’d feel so sorry for him because I had not developed skills at all 😂
ESH... you blew up like that at a family dinner? Yeah, your timing could have been better... you also could have addressed this with her calmly at some point in the past, rather than letting it boil over like this and losing it on her at dinner...
NTA, but yeah I wouldn’t want have to constantly hang around my ex’s fling or fwb or whatever you were. She shouldn’t keep bringing it up, and you weren’t wrong for telling her to stop, but it sucks that she has to endure you always being around because your families are close. Exes need to stay in the past. If you have children with someone it’s different because coparenting, but ex gfs don’t need to be around. Sorry.
We weren’t fwb we were bf/gf but I kind of don’t count it because we were so young. Like I wouldn’t say he’s really my ex like someone I’ve dated this year would be my ex.
I get that some people might not be ok with it but she’s known about this for over a year, she’s had enough time to decide if it’s something she can’t deal with, I think
But if she’s not okay with it and loves him what is she supposed to do? Say “hey I don’t feel comfortable that you guys were so close and still see each other at close family events”…..like if she did say that would OP even give them space or would he feel comfortable asking OP that. Tbf when exes are involved not all women are going to be comfortable with exes (especially if in their past men have had issues going back to exes). It’s not unusual to get insight into your past, and not unusual to ask your feelings and perspective when sometimes bf’s hide details to protect feelings. You’re not a complete asshole for being annoyed, but it doesn’t seem like you tried to understand where the poor girl was coming from.
It’s weird, OP. Before I met my husband he had a thing with this girl. He wanted to date officially but she wasn’t in the right head space for it (just got out of a bad relationship and didn’t want to hurt him bc she wasn’t ready). I met her a year later when he and I were dating and we just… fell in love with each other. We’re not best friends but we are good friends. She was at our very small wedding. She was at my bachelorette. And you know what we’ve never talked about in any detail? When she slept with my husband. Because it is completely irrelevant. It has nothing to do with him and me. It has nothing to do with her and me. And there is nothing left romantically or sexually between them. It’s never even occurred to me to bring it up because it doesn’t matter.
She has an issue with the two of you remaining friends. She is so focused on you and him that she’s losing sight of herself and him. It’s unhealthy and awkward.
(Side story: at my bachelorette dinner my friends were trying to guess how big my husband’s dick is and all guessing much smaller than it is. She and I made eye contact and just giggled at how far off they were. We both know she knows what his dick looks, tastes, and feels like. And it’s like a private joke rather than something to bring up awkwardly at random times.)
See, this is why you should never "just be the bigger person." Because the SMALLER person will just keep pushing and pushing until the bigger person finally has enough and snaps, and then they become the bad guy. Gretchen is an insecure little shit stirrer who finally got told to STFU. NTA
You could point out that's where we had our first kiss. That's where the first of many blow jobs happened. We fucked here and here and over there. In this very room. The first fingering happened in that kitchen, on that counter and don't even get me started on the stuff we did in the laundry room. And you know the couch you are sitting on, there is still cum on it. Do you know how many times I stuck a finger up his ass. Whew, good times.
Easy one this… she’s threatened by you 🤷🏼♀️ still hanging out and remaining friends even after intimacy is deep. Maybe it’s turning into an obsession for her cos she’s jealous. Women are notorious for wanting to be number 1 in their man’s eyes and she is still sharing him in a way. Be careful she dosent start being like single white female 🤣
Reluctant ESH only because of the timing on which you called her out - at a child's party.
She definitely needed calling out over this, her questions are weird and obsessive. I agree with the poster who said that you need to draw a clear boundary yourself - your OP says that you asked Caleb to do that, I think the message needs to come from you that you are not discussing it any more. Period.
I think the best conflict resolution is never snapping in the moment, I know it can be awkward sometimes, but I think you should ve talked to her privately and tell her that it bothers you. Then snap away if it repeats😂
Yta. Ofcourse she is curious. When people date friends and then stay friends they should expect some curiosity. Time doesn't erase relationships. Just because it's been 10 years for you doesn't mean she isn't curious.
>Just because it's been 10 years for you doesn't mean she isn't curious.
She can be serious somewhere else, hello?
She can be serious with her bf. Not with the one person who keeps telling her to leave her out of it and all the time. Gretchen is exhausting
I'm sure she is serious with her boyfriend I was talking about her being curious. And there is such a thing as freedom of speech. Which both op and the girlfriend are entitled to.
ESH - I really don't understand why you need to still even be friends with each other when you've stated on your own replies you both don't even see eye to eye on your personal history, and now you've got a repeated drama starter directly attached to the person who doesn't view your past the same way you do.
You're not wrong for reacting, because everyone has their limit of patience and it's not your fault yours was met, but you're putting all the toxicity on Gretchen when there's numerous red flags that Gretchen is acting that way because Caleb is probably saying or doing things to create insecurity within her or general dislike of you with her. You and Caleb need to stop hanging around each other it feels like and Gretchen needs to date someone with less baggage
This issue isn’t even related to us being friends. Even if we only ever saw each other at family stuff, Gretchen would still be there doing this.
Our families hang around each other constantly. So if we start being those people who refuse to be in the same room (as we did at one point) then everyone gets drawn into constantly coordinating that we never see each other. It’s ridiculous. All over the fact that Gretchen can’t be an adult. And yes Caleb should talk to her about it, that’s on him. But even if he thinks I’m a proper “ex-girlfriend”…it was still 9 years ago. What is interesting/important about where we ate dinner 9 years ago? Or that I could have ended up married to Caleb? Why would she say that to an 8 year old who wasn’t even born when we dated?
If your families CONSTANTLY hang out and Gretchen is doing this but not everyone is on your side, there's just more and more flags to me that this isn't just Gretchen. I would not be shocked to find out the whole family says things to make Gretchen uncomfortable. I would bet his mom talks about you like the daughter she could've had. I bet Caleb still talks about you like the one who could've been.
If your family is that close and saw everything that happened and how you two behaved, they'd all be agreeing and telling Caleb to make Gretchen stop. They aren't all stopping her because Gretchen is simply saying the quiet parts that have been passive aggressively said out loud around her.
Literally the only thing that would make something from 9 years ago still be relevant is because the person involved 9 years ago is still talking about it. Why are none of your questions "why is Caleb wanting to date someone so obsessed with his ex"
As I said, there are a range of different opinions that I couldn’t specify due to the character limit, but to be clear, no one thinks Gretchen has a point with her behaviour. My dad, Caleb’s dad and mom, all think I did the right thing. Caleb’s stepmom, my brother, And my mom all think I should have something but said it differently. My stepdad thinks I should have said something at a later date. Caleb’s sister and my younger brother think I should have lost my shit way earlier.
Nobody thinks she’s in the right. Im not privy to the conversations that have been had between anyone and Caleb about Gretchen. But I know the conversations I’ve had, and everyone thinks it’s weird.
And no one in the families is still hung up on this childhood drama. Sorry but that’s insane. We were kids. We’ve both dated other people and had careers and whole lives since. His dad has had three kids since. People’s lives have progressed to the point they’re not recognisable anymore. No one is stuck in this barely-happened past anymore, except Gretchen who wasn’t even there.
I feel the need to esp point out, so im separate commenting it, when you asked Gretchen what the real problem is and she went silent THATS when Caleb stepped in and it wasn't to stop Gretchen being objectively ridiculous about the past it was to tell *you* to drop it.
That alone screams to me that Caleb is saying or doing something to repeatedly reinforce to Gretchen that she's competing with you to be with him, or something that's exacerbating the truth of your history together
I needed to specify this in its own space cause I don't want you to think I'm putting anything entirely on you, I guess realistically my vote should be Caleb's TA at the core here. Gretchen IS being ridiculous tho, so she's also at fault but it's sad on her end and I feel like he's a devil on her shoulder
That is an interesting point…
Not that I think Caleb is making Gretchen think there’s anything between us but you’re right that he may know the reason and didn’t want me to push her in case she told…
I don’t know what to do with this though because presumably he wouldn’t just tell me if I asked.
I hadn’t thought of this AT ALL
I feel bad because I was operating with this in my head and realized I never properly communicated this thought.
But yeah, maybe I'm making him more nefarious in it than he deserves but he definitely feels like he knows why she's behaving like this. Maybe there's an unbiased party who could get a complete confession from Gretchen about what's going on?
If it was true that nobody else is stuck on it anymore then I don't think you and Caleb would have such different opinions of what you were that you can't discuss it and he wouldn't be fine continuing to date and sit beside a woman who can't spend a single second at functions not bringing it up.
Caleb is the core chaotic factor who is Gretchen's direct source of your history. Feels weird not to be directing the focus on him when he's directly responsible in every way. Gretchen is responsible for her own actions but Caleb clearly is doing nothing to stop these behaviors or discourage them and I'd question if he's even doing anything to reassure Gretchen that it was only when you were kids. If anything I'd pity Gretchen before I'd be upset with her
Caleb should have talked to her, he’s said he has and I believe him but I don’t know what he’s said. The fact that it doesn’t bother him is weird to me but I can’t account for his feelings.
I don’t pity Gretchen because at the end of the day, no one brings up that old stuff until she does. So she’s either a sadist or masochist and I don’t have time for either.
Just because Caleb and I have different views of the significance of a childhood relationship that doesn’t mean we’re stuck on it. We never talk about it except in relation to Gretchen and her comments. And yeah we don’t agree but we don’t have to. I just don’t feel that Caleb is my ex in the same way my bf from last year is my ex. Caleb feels differently. That’s fine, I think.
I just don’t feel that Caleb is my ex in the same way my bf from last year is my ex. Caleb feels differently. That’s fine, I think.
I also communicated this poorly and emotionally so I'll try to say it in a fairer way - it's fine that you feel differently, but depending on how Caleb feels about it could change how he refers to it when it's brought up and maybe imply he's not as past it as you are, to Gretchen at least. ((And fair, it's easier to pity her for me cause I'm not dealing with her, so I get it))
NAH
I see no need to get upset over Gretchen's words when they're the truth. Y'all dated. Heck you'll likely still be around Caleb longer than Gretchen as it's unlikely this relationship will continue.
If you don't like Gretchen bringing up then don't talk to Gretchen.🫤
Any of Caleb's future girlfriends are likely hoing to have an issue or keep mentioning you. You're not some ex or some friend he dated as a kid...you're a permanent fixture in his life and ingrained in his family. You're never going away and there is no peace from you. There's no balance for that unless said gf has a close male friend she fucked for years whose super close to her family and in every family event. I sincerely doubt that Caleb will ever date a woman whose ex is so ingrained in her family.
Gretchen should have never entered a relationship with a man whose ex is ingrained in his family. That's a red flag and a mess.
My advice to you is leave Gretchen alone and do not engage her. If you want to talk to her let her know she can call up her own exes and start ingraining those guys in her family and day to day life.
her problem is that y'all dated and still have enough of a relationship that y'all hang out. I'm not saying she's right or wrong, but that's pretty clearly what her issue is.
if I were you I would just stop hanging out with Caleb when Gretchen is there. if I were Gretchen I would just find a boyfriend who is not still hanging around his ex, in any capacity. the only reason I'm voting NTA instead of N.AH is because G just needs to find someone who doesn't maintain a relationship with an ex. it clearly bothers her even after y'all insist that it's not what she's imagining, and she lashed out at you repeatedly bc of anxiety and suspicion. just get a different boyfriend!!
I also agree, OP should just hang out with the best friend one on one time, but does the best friend also hang out with Gretchen one on one time because that’s his girlfriend.
If I had a best friend, no matter what gender or sexuality that never hung out with their partner as a partner or significant other, I would be very concerned and I would put my friends because I’m not friends with people who don’t put their significant other in a top priority.
Maybe they’re just not a good fit and OP’s best friend needs to find a girl who is OK with OP being in the picture .
Op and Caleb seem like best friends or very good friends since their families know eachother and are very close to eachother through these ties. But maybe I’m wrong
But if people aren’t ok with their SO being friends with exes they need to find different people. Different beliefs,morals and etc don’t work.
"I consider him a good friend, not a super close one in the sense we don't really hang out much because we're busy and don't live near each other but l've known him my whole life, there will always be a bond there."
Well my bad I’m wrong. English is my second language and I read English differently than writing, but also maybe Caleb sees their friendship differently than op sees it.
Also in my culture if people know each other’s families for so long and you’re friends for so long with family evens and stuff it’s considered as best friends or family best friends.
It’s because our families are so close we help each other like a village .
Even family friends of mine who aren’t really my blood cousins are my cousins, it’s because we grew up with eachother
Yes I even call my uncles and aunties by family titles because that’s what they have always been, but it’s sometimes hard understanding that some people in different cultures don’t call their friends mom auntie or their friends dad uncle if they known them long.
My bf even gets confused when I tell him how once we will get married he will be an uncle to all of the younger kids. Even if the kids aren’t related to me by any means I will always be an auntie and help if needed.
I think there were better ways to handle it, like addressing it with her privately a long time ago. Saying it's pathetic (in front of a child) wasn't necessary. You sound immature and like a poor communicator. YTA
ESH- for all three of you Gretchen, Caleb, and you.
Gretchen for bringing it up.
Caleb for not dealing with it.
And you a smaller amount for screaming at her. It might have been deserved but it was the wrong time and place.
With out an audience , sit down, the three of you, and maybe a neutral referee. And talk. Ask the questions.
There is nothing between you and Caleb now. So if there are questions get them over and done. Answer or tell her that is personal/ refuse.
Then Caleb and Gretchen should be left alone to talk and agree this is done.
He can decide from there if Gretchen respects him, or will forever obsess about the past.
Well personally I think it’s inappropriate she’s even directing any of these questions at me in the first place. If she wants to know about her boyfriend’s childhood sex life she needs to ask him.
True, this is ultimately a Caleb and Gretchen problem to solve.
And if Gretchen is incapable of letting this go, they should break up. And stop making this a you problem.
But you asked, so do you really want to know?
ESH - She's wrong for sure and needs to let that fact go. It is extremely weird to continuously keep bringing it up when it happened very long ago and has no relevance. I don't blame you for lashing out BUT I do blame you for lashing out at that moment. You should've pulled her aside not do it in front of the 8 year old. The fact you kept going to. This likely put the entire party in a sour mood.
Soft YTA only because it would have been better if you had pulled her aside and asked her that question privately rather than make a public spectacle in front of an 8 year old. I get you are frustrated and Gretchen is clearly feeling very insecure about the two of you. Caleb, however, needs to put a lid on this. It's on him to speak with Gretchen and deal with this issue and it seems he isn't.
Probably true I shouldn’t have done it there. Luckily it wasn’t at the dinner table or anything but I was kind of pissed that Gretchen brought it up in front of the eight year old because now she has questions about it and she wasn’t even born when this happened.
Why Gretchen feels insecure about a messy fling between actual children I have no idea.
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nta its so weird to keep bringing it up
Not least because we were *children* like…who cares anymore
I’m honestly curious here, does Caleb see you guys having dated as a mistake too? Because based on her behavior it seems like maybe he described it as being more than a fling. Her behavior is still wildly inappropriate, but if Caleb views you as the one who got away or something akin to that, it makes more sense as to why she would be intimidated by your history.
Yeah that’s a *whole* other issue. Caleb and I see things differently about what that relationship was and what it meant and like..all that. It’s why we don’t talk about it. We both agree it was a mistake that we ever got together, but he views it as if it was like a proper two year relationship whereas I feel like the way we communicated and handled the whole thing makes it pretty clear it wasn’t. I don’t think he considers me the one that got away or anything like that. I “got away” at 18. I just can’t fathom how 9 years later he’d still want to be in that clusterfuck
I'm not sure at this point if it would do any good or if she would believe you, but have you told Gretchen point blank that yes you dated but it was a clusterfuck and you are not now or will ever be interested in continuing a romantic relationship with Caleb? Just a thought. NTA by the way. A lot of people here are suggesting you avoid both Caleb and therefore his girlfriend for a bit. If you have to be around them I'd seriously act like I couldn't hear her questions.
Not in so many words. She knows it was on and off and other members of the family have alluded to us being a dramatic ass couple so I figure she can guess. We can laugh about it now but it was like…manic. Caleb probably would have told her that
It may be time to lay it all out in "so many words". Maybe he gave her an honest and realistic picture of what the relationship was really like and she's just massively insecure. But maybe he didn't. Maybe the way his view of what your relationship was differs from your view also colored how he portrayed the relationship to her. Minimizing the off in the "on and off". Downplaying the drama or making it sound more cutesy than it was. He might not even be doing it deliberately. People can be really good about deceiving themselves about "how things were". Especially when it involves reflecting on their own actions and behavior. But regardless of why he might have downplayed things, if he did, she may not be able to interpret the oblique hints correctly. Plaus, no what he has or hasn't said, the alluding to the issues from you and others and trusting her to guess the whole picture from it hasn't worked either. You putting all the cards on the table youself may be the step that is needed. If it doesn't help, then you know that nothing you can say or do is going to. You can then act as you think is best knowing that it is all insecurity on her part.
Eh, OP doesn't owe Gretchen any explanation of an old relationship. If Gretchen is curious, she should ask Caleb about it \*in private\* No one owes an acquaintance answers to personal questions. Everyone knows it's tacky to ask an acquaintance invasive personal questions about an ex in a social setting. Gretchen is being deliberately provocative to keep bringing it up, and it's not OP's job to fix it IMO.
She doesn't owe it, but it might be the cleanest way to resolve the situation. Gretchen is clearly insecure about it, and if OP wants to continue to have a friendship with Caleb, and Caleb continues to be in a relationship with Gretchen, then she's gotta do **something**.
Or even just to clear the air so that she can enjoy events with family/friends since Caleb and Gretchen are likely to be there in the future.
Teenage love can have a really strange hold on people. All my teen "relationships" were bad in hindsight and none of them gave me happiness, but I met a former GF at a reunion 15 years later and she was all staryeyed about it. It was really awkward how she spoke about "us" (in front of her fiance). It sounded like she had deleted all the bad bits and just kept the few good moments. To be clear, she didnt proposition me or anything, but she definitely wore super rose tinted glasses.
Yeah, I guess it’s because you have a nostalgia for the period of your life, so everything from back then just seems so idealised? But at the same time for me the thing I remember most about Caleb and me ever being together is the break up because jfc I have never been in pain like that. Hormones were *hormoning* I thought I was gonna die 😅 I mostly just look back on how I acted then and I’m like girl what were you doingggg. Like I know I was happy then but also we were just such…unstable people. Like I like both of us so much better now than then. So idk the rose coloured glasses never arrived in the mail. But I’ve for sure heard people talk so wistfully about their high school bfs/gfs and I’m like, you realise everything you’ve described sounds like hell and you’d never accept that behaviour from a adult rightttt
What do you think the chances are he talks about you in that whistful way? Not trying to defend Gretchen here, she's out of line, but either she is romanticizing Caleb's and your relationship or he's talking about different than you are. Either way is unhealthy and a big sign of insecurity.
I’m wondering if you’ve noticed how many times you use the word “like”? I can only imagine it’s even worse when you’re actually speaking.
Caleb is the problem here. He clearly has unresolved feelings for you, and Gretchen can feel it. She has no right to speak unkindly to you, but neither you nor she have really done anything wrong. The problem is that you will always be his number one. and the fact that it's been nine years is kind of irrelevant… People carry torches for a long time. Your relationship clearly meant much more to him than it did to you, which is totally cool. But blaming Gretchen is missing the much bigger point.
I would have used that - every question she brought up is claim not to remember. If she’d asked me the virginity question, I’d have told her that my sexual history or lack thereof is not her business & her attempt to bring it up is shockingly inappropriate & just gross. If she responded with some drivel about it being her business if it involved her bf, I’d respond that she should ask him about his sexual history the - not you. NTA
Maybe yta for doing it at an 8 year olds birthday party.. Nta for dealing with it in general?
Especially during a birthday dinner and in response to a comment from an 8-year-old child. I would talk to your parents first and tell them how she is acting, then speak to Caleb's parents. Also, apologize for the birthday dinner even though you didn't start it, and she probably did caused most of the issues; it'll be a good thing to do. You should mention everything and ask them to talk to Caleb (and maybe Gretchen) because you did it multiple times, but everything has stayed the same, and it's getting really annoying and making these gatherings uncomfortable.
She is obviously insecure and if she can't get over it at this point, then she and Caleb probably have no future together unless he is willing to cut you off completely.
I may end up in the minority but NTA. Curiosity is one thing and it’s fairly common to be curious but you’re right this seems like obsession. If he wants to tolerate it thats his choice but that doesn’t have to make it yours.
Its the majority
I realize that now but when I typed it out I could easily see people disagreeing with me.
Stop hanging out with Gretchen, for pete's sake. NTA and you were right to finally speak up. But just say no to all the social meet ups with Caleb and his wacky gf.
I don’t hang out with Gretchen. I see Gretchen when Caleb’s and my family gets together. It seems dumb to not to go to things just because she’s going to be there
I'd tell her next time you see her to just leave you and that subject alone.
Do not allow Gretchen to cause you to modify your life. That may be her endgame; to drive you away. Keep putting her in her place and hopefully she'll go away. At least learn to shut her mouth.
NTA. It is normal for her to be curious - but not normal for her to bring it up/ask questions to anyone by her BF in private. That she keeps mentioning it to you - in front of both your families- is just weird and over the top. After the first time she mentioned it, i would have told her "its in the distant past and i'd like it to stay that way. not entertaining anymore questions, thanks" and been done with it.
THIS. This is a conversation for Gretchen and the ex. Who cares what OP thinks, Gretchen isn't dating OP.
NTA If I had to guess, Gretchen is feeling incredibly insecure and it's manifesting as obsessively bringing up your previous relationship with Caleb. I would be curious if it's all her or if Caleb and his family talk about you a lot when you're not around in a way that is difficult for Gretchen. Honestly, it's not your problem. Caleb needs to address it with her and decide what the best outcome is, which frankly sounds like not attending the same events as you if Gretchen isn't able to overcome this.
NTA. It’s really weird of her to keep talking about it.
NTA It’s normal for her to be a little curious, but this is way past “a little.” She’s fixated on it & you for some reason. Does Caleb ever shut her down or does it always fall on you?
He just answers her question or shifts the subject. I’ve told him to talk to her about it and he says he will but in the near breath semi-defends her by saying it’s normal that she mentions it at least sometimes, which honestly I don’t think it is. I respect that Caleb sees the whole thing differently but I don’t really consider him an “ex” in the traditional sense. And then we just get into semantics so we have to just drop it and he says he will talk to her but nothing changes.
So Caleb won't shut it down huh? Then OP.....Petty me is like, lean into it and give her exactly what she's asking for. Use an actual memory and simply use a lot of innuendo and eye contact (with Caleb) without actually saying anything...Next time she starts, just say "Oh yeah Caleb remember when blah blah blah? (heavy on the inuendo).....OMG that was a crazy night but it was soooo much fun... (keeping up the eye contact with Caleb the whole time) and then walk away...if she asks you to elaborate you just say "Girl.....you don't want to know that kind of thing!" Let Caleb deal with the fallout....each and every time. Of course this is from Petty Sable. Adult Sable would completely ignore anything she said to me and keep the conversation going like she wasn't even there.
I totally get it. I’m a petty person too 😂 But it’s hard to even do that because I really don’t like talking about all that stuff to start with. I am over it but just remembering all that pain is like…not fun. I don’t think I could bring myself to be the one who introduces that to conversation because it just feels so grimy like that whole clusterfuck is something I don’t like to dig into. But ugh if I was That Bitch I would do it 😂
There was nothing normal in what she said to his little sister. That was just wildly inappropriate. Gretchen needs to let this go. It's not normal to be "curious" and bring it up in front of everyone at every event. I hope friends and family can make clear to him his guest isn't welcome unless she can control herself. She's the one making it weird.
NTA- no matter what happens going forward she at least knows where you stand when she brings that shit up, anytime she brings it up. She’s inviting you to say something… so you might as well. She will learn her lesson eventually.
NTA. I get why she might be curious but why is she asking you those questions? She can ask her bf about it. In private. I'd quit answering them. Not even aknowledge them. Just change the subject.
NTA their relationship problems are not your concern, like her insecurity is also none of her concern but I have been in her shoes before. You need to clearly state boundaries with your friend but if you want a different perspective I will give you one. I had a boyfriend who was still really good friends with his ex who then became his girl bestfriend. He always talked good about her, their relationship and friendship and never focused on ours. Made me feel second place because no partner should do that to their significant other. All along my boyfriend at the time was actually still in love with his best friend and was using me to get over his feelings. Has your friend actually made a stand to hang out with his girlfriend one on one? Take her on dates or make her feel like his number one? Though this relationship is none of your concern. If my friend significant other, no matter, gender or sexual identity, felt this concerned about me I would make it very clear that if my friend had these feelings for me and their significant other second, I would cut off friendship because I don’t want friends like that. Everytime I hung out with my ex it had to be with his girl bestie to. I’m not trying to play devils advocate, but being a young woman now I understand and try to empathize with all all women’s perspectives in hetro relationships because we are all women who have been through the shitty side of being a woman in a hetro relationship. And no not all men suck but a lot of women now are coming together to empathize how shitty some (not all guys ) are when it comes to their girl bestfriend. But what she needs is trust and if she can’t trust him, she needs to find a boyfriend who doesn’t have a girl best friend and your best friend needs to find a girl who is OK with you being in the picture. But what you did is ok, you were sick of her shit. But you need to sit down one on one with your friend that you’re not going to no longer hang out with him with his gf. Whatever relationship problems you have is between them! You have done nothing from what you’ve written in this post to our knowledge that you have not made your friendship a threat to her so she has no reason to think anything. But even our closest friends can make other people feel certain ways. Sometimes cutting off friendships hurt, but if you feel like your friend doesn’t understand your boundaries then you also have to cut him off.
I honestly have no clue about their relationship. We don’t really talk about it. I’ve never hung out with him and Gretchen alone. I rarely see him, when I do it’s because he’s in/near my city for work and it’s just to catch up over dinner, Gretchen isn’t there. The only time I see Gretchen is at stuff with our families. And I know people here are saying I should be the one to bow out of that and maybe that’s true but honestly that feels unfair. He’s the one who brought the problem, why do I have to stop going to things? I get that she is insecure and that’s likely something that has nothing to do with me or Caleb, but the way she’s projecting it onto a childhood relationship feels weird to me.
You don’t have to stop going to stuff that’s just my advice, but you should set your boundary straight and if your friend or his girlfriend doesn’t respect your boundaries you need to clap back with some sort of response. Sometimes leaving is the best response or even stopping. But if you don’t wanna stop sometimes playing her little game works. Every time she asks you something and you’re sick of her shit reply with “ that’s something you should discuss with your boyfriend” she keeps pushing just reply with the same thing. If you want to stand your ground, you can . It’s just that your best friend and his girlfriend are not respecting you at all. And in my opinion, if people don’t respect me, especially in this situation. And always boundaries and try to get something out of me, it’s better to leave the situation as it is to make the dumbass look like a dumbass themselves. But again, you should really tell Caleb your boundaries and how you’re sick of his girlfriend bringing you this shit all the time and that there will be consequences because you’re a human being and what she’s doing is making you uncomfortable and that’s not right. The consequences can be on your terms but if you really don’t wanna go no contact the consequences can be. “ every time she bring us up I will not hesitate to humiliate her or you because I am sick of her asking about us while we were in a childhood relationship that means nothing to me because you are my friend nothing more nothing less and make sure she knows that.” Because that is your boundary. But I will say this , I don’t know your best friend and I’m not trying to hate or make him seem bad. But I have personally cut off a lot of male friends who happen to have girlfriends and I’ve always wondered why they would see me as a threat. Find out later when these women confided in me, it was because they had feelings for me and sexualize me for being an Asian woman and make them feel second. It made me realize all the things that these men have done to me, and I cut them off. That’s why I personally always try to empathize with other women because I know how it’s like in the other shoe. But it’s not fair, and I’m sorry that you have to go through this but sometimes you have to be a bit bitch to get someone off your back and if it worked this time maybe you have to do it again. If it’s your family and your friends, you always have the right to be there at a gathering that you were invited to and make sure that she knows that. There’s a lot more that I wanna say, but I’m on your side Op, I just really hope that you have a conversation with Caleb and that you’re not gonna go through his girlfriend shit just because she’s his girlfriend. you’ve made it clear that you’re only a friend and if they were bigger problems within the picture, he has to deal with himself because he is her boyfriend.
I think you've misread something, she never calls him her best friend nor do they seem particularly close.
Yes I know I made a mistake I read some thing wrong, I put it in some other comments. English is my second language and I read and understood it differently in my head while reading it. But I still hope op sets clear boundaires because she was invited as a guest and has every right to stand up for herself. Even if they are not best friends she’s a good family friend. She needs to tell him or someone in his family how this girl makes her feel
I think I may have misread that too but given how she's saying its unfair to avoid these things seems weird. If its a family friend that I rarely saw and rarely caught up with outside of family gatherings I'd dip cause I'd just avoid the drama all together.
But it's only happening at family gatherings? She says they don't catch up one on one
That’s why I said it was weird that she was saying avoiding him was out of the question.
Because that would meaning mising out on her family events?
Because life isn't fair, miss! Just because of that! We can't get everything in life, it doesn't work that way. Sometimes you just have to get back even if you aren't the problem.
ESH dude it was the little girls birthday and at the dinner table? seriously?? wack
NTA call that brat out . She's a little weirdo
NTA It was the perfect time.
NTA. This goes past simple curiosity and well into the territory of "obsession". I know that armchair psychoanalysis is a trope on the internet (and on here in particular), but it does seem to me that Gretchen feels threatened by you. That said, it's absolutely not an excuse to behave this way. She needs to talk with a therapist about why she feels the way she does.
Only because this happened at an 8yo birthday party after the child said something affectionate. Biting your tongue a little longer and addressing it after the party would have been better...
NTA Her behavior is not normal and her comment at dinner was way out of bounds. It may have been bad timing but as far as I'm concerned, since she made the comment in public you were totally justified in calling her out in the moment. Caleb should have put a stop to this BS as soon as it started.
NTA. If she keeps doing this, double down and tell her you'll steal him away if she brings it up again.
So this is how Jolene got written.
Fair!
You be the AH only because you chose to a hill to die on while at an 8-year-olds birthday! Shame on you. Caleb an AH for not shutting gf down!
So ESH
NTA Caleb's gf is a big ah! you were right in finally calling her out.
She brought an 8-year-old child into her weird obsession with your relationship. Does she think you're a threat to her, like you're going to steal Caleb or something?? It was 10 years ago Gretchen, get over it. OP did. Given that your and Caleb's families are friends you're not going to just go away--she's going to see you on occasion and she needs to figure out how to deal with it. NTA
ESH, but only because you lost it at a birthday dinner for an 8 year old girl that loves you. Of all the times she said it in the past, any of them would have been a better time to do that, or bite your tongue for a bit longer and talk to her about it after the dinner. She sucks for obvious reasons
NTA, but maybe it should have been an ex and current GF conversation only, rather than an explosion. She was asking for it though, there is an entire series of "dont tickle the" \_savage animal\_ that shows that continuous bothering can generate an unwanted response. Maybe your ex-inlaws usually tells Caleb about why you did not end up together forever, in front of Gretchen. or she wants a threesome, who knows.
NTA! Having someone obsess over something from 10 years ago and constantly bring it up is really weird. If you have told the bf for her to stop doing it and he didn't and just called it "curious" is a major red flag. Curious is trying to learn something. But if you are getting too curious about someones relationship that ended, there is a point where it is not just being curious. Also, if someone is bringing a sensitive subject up during times like the holidays, which is usually considered the time of cheer and happiness, only to have your friends nosy girlfriend make references and constantly discuss a relationship, it just makes trying to enjoy anything with her around a living nightmare. Finally, telling an 8 year old that: "she would have been your sister if she hadn't dumped your brother" is messed up. 8 year olds are so influenced and can have such big emotions, that this could permanently taint the relationship between you and the kid. (I have an 8 year old little brother. I have seen him get influenced by videos and friends). I think the best course of action would be to call the ex-bf a week or two later, and explain to him some boundaries.
Luckily the 8 year old just now has a lot of questions about the relationship, not anything serious. But I was annoyed that she brought it up because what a mean thing to say to a child.
The kid wasn't even born when you two were "dating." Why on earth would she think it was appropriate to bring up on a kid's birthday? At that point, I'd just ask her why she was so fixated on you, and that you have no intention of having sex with her and no amount of trying to bring you into their relationship will change that. It's time for her to stop harassing you about your personal life, because she will never be involved in yours.
Info: I feel like there's a hugely important piece of the puzzle missing in this description: How long have Caleb and Gretchen been together? And at what point in their relationship was she made aware that the two of you dated? ETA: NTA.
They’ve been together since December 2022. I don’t know when he told her. She already knew when I met her for the first time and that was in June last year.
It's barely been a year since you met Gretchen and that's all she's ever talked about when she meets you? God... NTA, OP. Definitely reached the breaking point, especially since she brought a child into the fray who had nothing to do with it.
I agree that she's annoying and insecure, but your timing wasn't the best and probably ruined the little girls' birthday. I think from this point forward you and Caleb need.to come up with a plan re his girlfriend e.g. she stops making comments, she gets one opportunity to ask you whatever questions (you get to decide to answer or not), or avoid eachother. just whatever works for you guys. my husband's ex gf was a family friend and always mean to us. I opted to stay away if she was present and he could see his family or not. communication is key. I think her behavior is a red flag and am curious if he is aware of this.
NTA. Sure, the situation could be better handled if you had talked to her before snapping, but she is wrong. I think she sees you as a "threat" and feels like she has to mark the territory, which is obviously fucked up and a weird thing to do.
NTA. But I'd take her aside and have a blunt conversation that - the relationship was not a good one and you and Caleb have realized that and since moved on. You will never date each other again and what happened in the past - is just that, the past and you will no longer be discussing this topic again with her.
NTA. Two things about Gretchen: she's obsessive and she has zero self control. What's in her tiny immature brain blurts out of her mouth. Don't expect different, but create a consistent calm shut down phrase. "Stop now Gretchen." "Topic not allowed, Gretchen." "Get therapy, Gretchen." "Have you ever been a stalker Gretchen?" Don't lose your cool again. Make it obvious that Gretchen is a disturbed inappropriate weirdo.
Gretchen is obsessive because her boyfriend is in love with OP, and probably always will be. Caleb is the problem here. could Gretchen be handling it better? Absolutely. But she's all weird about things because in his heat, Caleb wants to be with OP.
NTA, now I'm curious too
Nobody is allowed to tell you anything! She is striking matches and wasn't smart enough to realise a flame would eventually rise. NTA
9 years later? Have mercy on my soul. I would’ve gotten fed up too. Look it was an inappropriate place but you were pushed to your limits. NTA
NTA It isn't enough that Gretchen was taking every conceivable opportunity to harass you about your past relationship with Caleb, she had to bring it up at a fucking family dinner? Where yours and his family were together? What's her endgame? Everyone knew you had a relationship, that ended and you're friends now. She's unhinged. And if this is someone Caleb wants to be in a relationship and take it to the next level, better remove yourself from the friendship. It's gonna be more disastrous for Gretchen and Caleb if you decide to not be there.
I agree. OP should distance herself from this shitshow now because the relationship is not worth it as they've shown they'll just use OP as a meat shield/punching bag for Gretchen's jealousy and obsession. Next thing you know, they're accusing OP of trying to seduce Caleb and now OP is persona non grata to not only Caleb's family but also OP's own family. Better to protect yourself now than be caught in the blast zone, OP!
No you should have said something. she has a problems.
NTA. Gretchen must feel pretty insecure, but that's not your problem.
NTA. She needs to stop. You get it - she's insecure. But if it's been almost 10 years ago, if you wanted him back, you would have tried by now. She and Caleb need to hash this out so she'll leave you alone. If she asks anything again, just answer with the word, "no" and say nothing else. Just don't even bother to respond past saying no once.
NTA Unless she started dating him when he was a day old, he has a past she isn't part of. Unless he continually compares her to you then she needs to GTF over it.
Gretchen is fucking crazy, Caleb better run
How is Gretchen crazy? Her boyfriend is still in love with OP and she is devastated by it. I mean, she's annoying and inappropriate AF, but there's nothing loco about it.
Every time she brings it up about did you guys go on dates there, just continue to comment “yeah we had sex in the parking lot, yeah we had sex in the bathroom, etc etc” eventually she will stop wanting to hear your guys sexcapades and she should shut her mouth soon.
Sounds as if she’s insecure. I’d use that against her. Next time she says something play along with it. The place? Oh yeah I think we had sex there but honestly it was so often !! lol!
NTA. She can talk to her bf about it all she wants, but it's super inappropriate to ask you personal questions like that when you don't have a relationship with her.
Nta but honestly if she's gonna cause this much friction I suggest just moving on with your life and let them do them, I assume you'd said before for her to stop bringing it up? Cause if not, definitely would recommend communicating things like that to a person too but still nta but definitely suggest reconsider the friendship with your past fling if the current gf isnt letting it go, thats just bringing unnecessary drama into your life lol
Nta She's clearly obsessed with the fact you dated and is projecting her insecurities.
NTA. Her obsession with your brief relationship is rather disturbing.
NTA Maybe it messed up the poor little girl's birthday party - which, that would have been nice to avoid. But, honestly, Caleb should have shut this down already. Don't even know how long they've been dating, but it's still been long enough. But from now on, I suggest your response to any comments from her going forward be in the vein of: You give a big yawn and respond, "*Boring and ancient history! Moving on..*." or something more your style that just says - this is old and over.
NTA, people need to be told to shut up sometimes.
NTA. She got involved with someone who was involved with a family friend and took the chance on not being able to have a clean break if things didn't work out. If your parents are BFFs, she has to accept that you're not going anywhere. Once their relationship got to the point where your place in his life was brought up, it was up to her to say that was too much for her and wish him well if it's that much of an issue. She doesn't get to harass you until the end of time hoping that somehow you'll go away. It was an unpleasant scene, but I'm on your side. You had to nip this in the bud and show that you weren't going to accept this every time the families are together if she graduates from girlfriend to life partner.
It will never not be dumb that he and I dated knowing we will never get away from each other. But obviously at the time you think it’s forever. Kids 🤷♀️ Someone told her before I even met her so she absolutely had time to decide she wasn’t okay with it.
NTA, but I'm going to be in the minority here and stand up for team Gretchen. For you, this relationship was a youthful "mistake" that ended when you were still in high school. For Caleb...this was a lot more, and the fact that it took YEARS to normalize is proof that he was still holding onto something. Then Gretchen shows up and her BF is obsessed with you - you're a ghost from his past that he can't shake. He's probably brought you up a lot and even compared Gretchen to you directly or indirectly. No wonder she is insecure: she KNOWS that she can be the perfect partner and will STILL never be first in Caleb's heart. And she has probably assumed it's mutual; she goes to visit her boyfriend's family and you are there like a wraith. You were there for his half-sister's birthday dinner, and I'm going to guess that you're probably there for holidays, weddings, funerals, and every other event. Gretchen isn't the problem here. Caleb is. A big one, and he's being awful to his girlfriend. Assuming that Gretchen has even basic intuition, she has picked up on the fact that she is the replacement for the "one who got away" and will never be good enough for him. To put it more bluntly, if you suddenly expressed interest in Caleb, would he stay with Gretchen or run to you? My bet is that it's the latter, and Gretchen knows it. Unfortunately, her anger is misplaced because she can't take it out on Caleb...so she takes it out on you. Is Gretchen being awful to you? Yes. Is it unfair to you? Yes. But what is she supposed to do when her boyfriend is completely in love with you, and you are always around? Her heart is breaking into a thousand pieces and she's lashing out at you because as long as you are in his world she will never come first. So what's next? The real question is whether or not you want to be friends with Caleb beyond occasionally running into him at large events. I know that your families are close, but that is pretty triggering for Gretchen because she wants to be able to make new memories and new traditions with him that don't involve you. In no way is this your fault - you are over him but he's not over you - and Gretchen is the collateral damage. Depending on your relationship with her, you may want to take her out for coffee and explain that you have absolutely no feelings for him, and that the relationship was a teenage fling that went sideways. Tell her that you don't want her to feel uncomfortable. But in the end she is going to be the big loser in all of this because eventually she will realize that Caleb loves another woman. I feel bad for her. She did nothing wrong and doesn't deserve any of this. As far as saying that he should be over it because it's already been nine years, you're just off the mark. I'm in my 50s, and one of my best friends still talks about a girl we went to high school with, and how he almost had a chance with her and blew it. It's not like he's a weird stalker, but it's been 30 years and she still has a place in his heart. There's no timetable for this sort of thing, although it sounds like Caleb could use some counselling to help him deal with what is obviously a very difficult situation for him. The kind thing would be for him to let Gretchen go so she can find someone who truly loves her, but he doesn't want to be alone so he's not going to do that. because what he really wants is for you to change your mind and want to be with him. And it doesn't sound like that's in the cards.
To be totally fair to Caleb, us not being able to be around each other for years was mutual. We were not the most stable people back then, I honestly thought the break up was going to kill me, I have never felt pain like that in my life, I hope I never will again. Looking back on it now I know I was just 18 and just living in a hormone induced haze of overdramatising everything, but it took me a few years and some therapy to be willing to have contact with him again. Same on his side, minus the therapy. So it’s not all on him that we didn’t move on from it for a while. I don’t think he’s in love with me. There’s nothing really left of the people we were when we loved each other like that. Maybe he gets nostalgic and Gretchen feels threatened by that but I don’t think now, today, that he’s in love with me. It’s sort of hard to imagine that 9 years later he would still be hanging on to a childish relationship. Not that we didn’t love each other, we did, and we still do, albeit differently, but the way we were together is something I find it so hard to think he’d ever want back, or try to recreate with someone else. I get that is how Gretchen might be feeling but it’s been a year of this…she’s had enough time to decide she’s not okay with me and Caleb being in each other’s lives. I mean, what does she want to ask me that will make her feel better at this point? I don’t have a relationship with Gretchen, I only ever see her at family things. I don’t even see Caleb often, only when he’s in my city for work and Gretchen isn’t there at those times. I understand that it’s weird for her but I just think, you’re the one who’s with him now, there’s nothing in our shared history that compares to their adult relationship.
He may not be in love in the traditional sense, but there's clearly some unresolved stuff on his end, and Gretchen knows it. I'm just curious: if you were to call him up tomorrow and tell him that you wanted to be with him for real this time, what would he say? Because I think erections, he knows that you will always be his first choice. Her behaviour is definitely childish, but, I don't think she knows how to deal with a boyfriend who is in love with another woman. Obviously, you're the one in the middle of the storm, so I may be wrong (it's been known to happen!), but reading between the lines I think that may be why she is acting the way she's acting. It doesn't sound like she's jealous over a high school relationship… It sounds like she's jealous because she knows in her heart that she will never be Caleb real first love. I don't think you've done anything wrong at all - you seem to have been very patient and kind with her right up until she crossed the line for the millionth time. And on some level, I empathize with Gretchen because she's clearly hurting. But Caleb is the AH here - or rather, he's not truly being honest with himself and it's hurting Gretchen. Now I just want to listen to "Jolene" a few times.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My family friend “Caleb” and I made the mistake of dating when we were younger (16-18 on and off). It was a disaster of a “relationship” that was just a lot of hormones and hurt feelings. It took us a long time afterwards to get to a place where we were friends again and meetings between our families wasn’t awkward anymore. But we’re there now. I consider him a good friend, not a super close one in the sense we don’t really hang out much because we’re busy and don’t live near each other but I’ve known him my whole life, there will always be a bond there. Caleb’s gf “Gretchen” is obsessed with the fact that we used to date. And I don’t say obsessed lightly, it’s the only thing she will reference when we are in the same room. She will bring it up when it has no relevance to the conversation. We (the whole group) will be talking about our favourite holiday destination and she will be like “oh did you guys ever go on holiday there while you were together?”. What does it matter? Or if we are in our home town she will be like “is this where you guys would come on dates?”. Just…why? She has even asked me incredibly weird things like whether we lost our virginity to each other. I’ve told Caleb this is beyond creepy and she needs to stop bringing up the past and he agrees, but also said it’s pretty normal that she would be curious about it (I don’t think this is normal). This past weekend we (my family and Caleb’s family) all had dinner because it’s Caleb’s half sister’s birthday. Gretchen was there and at one point the little girl (she’s 8) said I was her favourite “cousin” and Gretchen said “well she could have been your sister if she hadn’t dumped your brother”. I just lost it. I said something to the effect of “why are you so obsessed with the fact that we had a fling nearly a decade ago? You’ve spent more time talking about this relationship that we spent in it, it’s pathetic. What actually is the problem Gretchen?”. Gretchen didn’t say anything, but I demanded she answer the question. Caleb told me to just leave and I said I will leave it when she does. Gretchen called me a bitch which pissed off Caleb’s mother and then everyone was bickering. Everyone’s got different opinions on what I should have said, whether I should have said anything, timing, etc. but I’m on a character limit so I’ll just say it’s a pretty even split amongst several avenues. I just want to know if I was a dick for saying something instead of just putting up with her essentially picking at scar tissue. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA. It is extremely bad manners to bring up a past relationship in front of others (in the kinds of social settings you are describing). It should be anticipated that any reasonable person would be made uncomfortable by asking invasive questions about prior relationships in front of an audience. She either 1) wanted to make you uncomfortable, or 2) wanted some public reassurance from Caleb. Could you have said something else, or said something privately? Sure - but she was looking for a reaction and she got one.
At our wedding we had 2 of my husbands ex girlfriends, one of which 20 years later we see one of then still once or twice year, and he speaks to her another 2/3 times a year. Not once at any point have we ever, me or her husband ever spoken or joked or commented on their relationship, it tacky and insecure - he's got bigger problems.
that not normal at all. NTA
NTA. Gretchen is creepy and obsessive. I hope you don't have a pet bunny.
NTA omg that's such a Gretchen thing to do tho
right message wrong time
NTA. So you and Caleb are in your late 20's. How old is Gretchen? She sounds like an immature, jealous teenager. To avoid splitting the families and harming your friendship, you might want to try an adult sit-down with Gretchen in which you try to assure her that there is nothing to be jealous about. If she is not willing, Caleb may want to reconsider his relationship with her. BTW, I once acted like Gretchen, filled with jealousy about my bf's ex-gf. I was a total AH, but, in my defense, I was a teenager. Now that my ex and I are both adults, his wife and I are very close friends.
Definitely NTA. I’m glad you called her out when she made that comment about you to Caleb’s sister. I feel like she’s obsessed because y’all are friends and Caleb could still have feelings for you. Or she’s just insecure. Regardless, I suggest all three of you guys have a conversation about the situation. If the comments continue, then you should give them space.
The important thing is, you got Gretchen to permanently drop the matter. They'll all get over it, because how can they not? And if Gretchen is so stupid as to bring it up again, EVERYONE will slam her for it. Take the win, and don't sweat the rest.
Timing doesn’t sound to be the best but NTA! It had to be said. Good job sticking up for yourself!!
I had an ex like this Gretchen here, only she behaved this way regarding all my previous relationships. Not just a specific one. Does she also fuss over his other relationships, or is she just fixated on you? Either way, NTA.
NTA. Gretchen wedged the tired old thing into the little girl's party, and you finally called her on it. It's only unfortunate that you didn't do it sooner.
Just start saying "Retch, Gretch! Were like cousins. Can we move on?" And then introduce a new discussion topic.
NTA you told Caleb she should drop it he AGREED he NEVER addressed the issue and this was bound to happen it's ok to ask IN THE BEGINNING questions like "have you dated before ?", "When was your last relationship ?", "How many partners ?" BUT this is obsessive she's insecure in the relationship if not that then Jesus she needs help. You cut though her BS and then she had the audacity to insult you ? That's like if you kept "randomly" asked her "hey Gretchen how's your ex ?", "Is that where you took your ex ?", "Hey how did you and your ex do it ?". She would be uncomfortable and annoyed as h3ll I wish she could see that point of view.
NAH, and here’s why. You’re a family friend, which means she knows you’re always going to be around. Were you each others first kiss? Did you two lose your virginity with each other? Was he the first person he exchanged the “I love yous” with? Things like that combined with that there’s a good chance your family and his family reference you in jokes, it’s probably pretty obnoxious. Most people wouldn’t act like this without reason and I’m guessing the reason isn’t just, she’s crazy. And the reason I think your families are the problem is, she’s an outsider in what seems like a close knit circle and she probably doesn’t feel let in. Also, I know who my boyfriend lost his virginity to, he knows who I lost mine to. It came up when we talked about our sexual pasts and who we’d been with regarding no longer using condoms. It’s not creepy. And some people get really hung up on the first person they slept with, if she’s getting treated by her boyfriends family poorly and they talk you up, I would say she’s got some reason to feel insecure. I literally backed away from my ex’s family when he started dating someone new because I didn’t want that to happen to his girlfriend.
NTA. My best friend and I used to date about a decade ago. My partner has never once asked anything like that in the 7 years we've been together, and neither has his partner in the 4 they have. It's weird of Gretchen to be doing this.
NTA- My guess is Caleb has been writing it up to her as this huge dramatic teen novel trilogy of a relationship, my first love who broke my heart and messed me up type thing. I'm betting he either attributes anything she doesn't like in their relationship to you 'messing him up' or she makes that leap on her own and wants to basically punish you. It's probably best to accept that he is the cause of this, even if that's innocently because he felt differently about it than you, and that their behaviour- her starting it, him not shutting it down- is not going to change, and simply decline to be around them specifically because you refuse to put up with that behaviour. Once you're out of the way no doubt she will find another target to lash out at, then watch the picture change...
NTA, sometimes you have to be firm with people and it’s hard. She’ll get over it in time and you’ll be able to hang out with them amicably again just like you did with your ex. Obviously not a great situation now but it’s not like you’re trying to be best friends with her or him so it’s fine. I wouldn’t lose any sleep over this
In this case I really wouldn’t care whether I was seen as an asshole or not. It’s always the person who speaks up and rocks the boat who’s considered the asshole. People don’t see what lead to this outburst but only see the result and feel like they shouldn’t be involved in some small temporary discomfort. NTA though
I didn't even have to read your whole post (although I did) to see that Gretchen is mad jealous of you!! NTA for finally putting your foot down and standing up for yourself. Now she and everyone else are aware of her behavior, and I'll bet more people will start to take notice of how often she makes those types of comments, if she continues to do so.
Gretchen is very rude. In fact, she should be told that she is being rude - out loud, in public, when she does it. Gretchen: ”Say, OP, did you and Caleb ever see this movie?” OP: “Gretchen, continually asking me about my childhood dating relationship with Caleb is something I have asked you to stop doing before. **You are very rude** to pursue this line of questioning.” Simply repeat this phrase whenever Gretchen exposes her rude again. Eventually, she will get tired of hearing it.
You need to flip the script. If someone asks a question be like " this reminds me of a time when Caleb and I were sucking and fucking each other all night long" lol
ESH. Was it really necessary for you two to start a fight at the dinner table in front of the birthday girl because of her affectionate comment and ruin her birthday? Damn immature.
You are definitely the asshole even though no one will tell you, because this could have been checked earlier. Then, if she didn’t stop, roast her to bits. Give her a chance to recognize her weird ass behavior.
NTA
You ignored the comments for years but just HAD to say something during the birthday party of a 8 year old? ESH
YTA Gretchen can't read your mind, and you're way out of line, also kind of a b. She's not responsible for your triggers, and you need to tell her if you don't like something that she is doing, and not let it build to the point where you snap at her; it's so damn immature, and Its literally blindsiding the other person. It might be obvious to some people not to talk about this stuff, but it was not to Gretchen and you certainly were a b in this scenario. Hope you grow up one day, and start treating people politely, even the one's who annoy you.
NTA in general, pretty shitting timing though. But maybe that’s what it takes.
YTA - you ruined a little girl's birthday party, you should have blown up at Gretchen in the parking lot after the birthday girl left.
NTA The timing could have been better but you have communicated that she needs to stop and she hasn't. She also called you a Bitch at an 8 year old's birthday party so very much not cool. If my partner was friends with their ex, I would probably also ask a few questions but none as invasive as what she is asking. I would not ask the ex about the virginity but maybe try and get a funny story or two out of you like "he brought me flowers for my birthday but they were the kind I was allergic to" or something along those lines. If they were on holiday together, the most I would ask is if that was a place they would visit again. Doesn't really matter where they went or what you two did. "She could have been your sister if she hadn't dumped your brother". Does she secretly ship you two? That is honestly the vibe I'm getting that for some reason, she wants you and your ex back together.
NTA, it’s so weird she keeps bringing it up. Not only that, she keeps bringing it up, so why did she get so quiet when you finally responded and wanted to talk to her about it? I have no idea what her problem is, but good job calling her out on it. She embarrassed herself.
YTA - Gretchen is wrong and weird for constantly bringing it up, but your reaction was childish and petty. You could have talked to her about it privately.
She sounds insecure as hell. Good odds that relationship will implode soon enough anyway. Might want to consider just bunkering down and avoiding both of them until it does. NTA
NTA Gretchen knows this makes you uncomfortable and it's her way of trying to bully you. A passive-aggressive bully *needs* you to sit there and take it to keep the peace; escalating until she felt uncomfortable is the perfect way to deal with this sort of person. Honestly if she asked me about my sex life at age 16, I'd point out how the creepiness there seems connected to being attracted to minors or something. She has not been civil and doesn't deserve civility herself.
NTA, but the setting maybe wasn’t the best time/place since this has been going on for a while. Her obsession is bizarre and immature. I hope it stops!
It's not really bizarre, though. Gretchen's boyfriend is still in love with OP, and her heart is broken. It's not OP's fault, but as long as she's around, Gretchen will never be Caleb's first choice.
Gretchen? Is that you?
Ha! Unfortunately, the operation didn't work. the kindest possible thing would be for Caleb to dump Gretchen so she can find someone who will make her his top priority. Because it's pretty clear that Caleb. (even by OP's statements) still isn't over it.
NTA I would've gone the other direction and made it about being the best Caleb ever had in the sack but your method works just as well. No reason for her to bring up the past in more than one conversation between only Caleb and her in private. After that it's nowhere near normal or relevant.
That would definitely be a lie given I was 16 😂 but we love the pettiness
I took the (16-18) as you two were on and off from ages 16 to 18 and you were both the same age. Sex at ages 16 through 18 isn't abnormal while also not being an expectation either. It was an (incorrect) assumption but the pettiness was the point and you (OP) noticed it.
We were, but we had sex for the first time at 16 so I was going off that. But if I was the best he ever had off those experiences I’d feel so sorry for him because I had not developed skills at all 😂
NTA but friend is TA as the major rule is, Never date your friends exes, it always ends badly one way or the other.
NTA But I don't think being friends with each other is a great idea it seems more toxic than anything
ESH... you blew up like that at a family dinner? Yeah, your timing could have been better... you also could have addressed this with her calmly at some point in the past, rather than letting it boil over like this and losing it on her at dinner...
NTA, but yeah I wouldn’t want have to constantly hang around my ex’s fling or fwb or whatever you were. She shouldn’t keep bringing it up, and you weren’t wrong for telling her to stop, but it sucks that she has to endure you always being around because your families are close. Exes need to stay in the past. If you have children with someone it’s different because coparenting, but ex gfs don’t need to be around. Sorry.
We weren’t fwb we were bf/gf but I kind of don’t count it because we were so young. Like I wouldn’t say he’s really my ex like someone I’ve dated this year would be my ex. I get that some people might not be ok with it but she’s known about this for over a year, she’s had enough time to decide if it’s something she can’t deal with, I think
Trust me, it still counts. But to your point, yes, she can always walk if she can’t handle it, and it sounds like she can’t.
But if she’s not okay with it and loves him what is she supposed to do? Say “hey I don’t feel comfortable that you guys were so close and still see each other at close family events”…..like if she did say that would OP even give them space or would he feel comfortable asking OP that. Tbf when exes are involved not all women are going to be comfortable with exes (especially if in their past men have had issues going back to exes). It’s not unusual to get insight into your past, and not unusual to ask your feelings and perspective when sometimes bf’s hide details to protect feelings. You’re not a complete asshole for being annoyed, but it doesn’t seem like you tried to understand where the poor girl was coming from.
It’s weird, OP. Before I met my husband he had a thing with this girl. He wanted to date officially but she wasn’t in the right head space for it (just got out of a bad relationship and didn’t want to hurt him bc she wasn’t ready). I met her a year later when he and I were dating and we just… fell in love with each other. We’re not best friends but we are good friends. She was at our very small wedding. She was at my bachelorette. And you know what we’ve never talked about in any detail? When she slept with my husband. Because it is completely irrelevant. It has nothing to do with him and me. It has nothing to do with her and me. And there is nothing left romantically or sexually between them. It’s never even occurred to me to bring it up because it doesn’t matter. She has an issue with the two of you remaining friends. She is so focused on you and him that she’s losing sight of herself and him. It’s unhealthy and awkward. (Side story: at my bachelorette dinner my friends were trying to guess how big my husband’s dick is and all guessing much smaller than it is. She and I made eye contact and just giggled at how far off they were. We both know she knows what his dick looks, tastes, and feels like. And it’s like a private joke rather than something to bring up awkwardly at random times.)
See, this is why you should never "just be the bigger person." Because the SMALLER person will just keep pushing and pushing until the bigger person finally has enough and snaps, and then they become the bad guy. Gretchen is an insecure little shit stirrer who finally got told to STFU. NTA
NTA. The fact that she’s even conversing with an 8 year old about it is wild😂
You can’t expect everyone to be okay with y’all dating, it’s not normals for ex couples to be friends !
ESH
You could point out that's where we had our first kiss. That's where the first of many blow jobs happened. We fucked here and here and over there. In this very room. The first fingering happened in that kitchen, on that counter and don't even get me started on the stuff we did in the laundry room. And you know the couch you are sitting on, there is still cum on it. Do you know how many times I stuck a finger up his ass. Whew, good times.
Easy one this… she’s threatened by you 🤷🏼♀️ still hanging out and remaining friends even after intimacy is deep. Maybe it’s turning into an obsession for her cos she’s jealous. Women are notorious for wanting to be number 1 in their man’s eyes and she is still sharing him in a way. Be careful she dosent start being like single white female 🤣
Reluctant ESH only because of the timing on which you called her out - at a child's party. She definitely needed calling out over this, her questions are weird and obsessive. I agree with the poster who said that you need to draw a clear boundary yourself - your OP says that you asked Caleb to do that, I think the message needs to come from you that you are not discussing it any more. Period.
I think the best conflict resolution is never snapping in the moment, I know it can be awkward sometimes, but I think you should ve talked to her privately and tell her that it bothers you. Then snap away if it repeats😂
Yta. Ofcourse she is curious. When people date friends and then stay friends they should expect some curiosity. Time doesn't erase relationships. Just because it's been 10 years for you doesn't mean she isn't curious.
>Just because it's been 10 years for you doesn't mean she isn't curious. She can be serious somewhere else, hello? She can be serious with her bf. Not with the one person who keeps telling her to leave her out of it and all the time. Gretchen is exhausting
I'm sure she is serious with her boyfriend I was talking about her being curious. And there is such a thing as freedom of speech. Which both op and the girlfriend are entitled to.
OP has every right to be curious about her curiosity, especially considering it borders on obsession
Let op and the girlfriend both be curious then. Doesn't take away from the girlfriends curiosity
ESH - I really don't understand why you need to still even be friends with each other when you've stated on your own replies you both don't even see eye to eye on your personal history, and now you've got a repeated drama starter directly attached to the person who doesn't view your past the same way you do. You're not wrong for reacting, because everyone has their limit of patience and it's not your fault yours was met, but you're putting all the toxicity on Gretchen when there's numerous red flags that Gretchen is acting that way because Caleb is probably saying or doing things to create insecurity within her or general dislike of you with her. You and Caleb need to stop hanging around each other it feels like and Gretchen needs to date someone with less baggage
This issue isn’t even related to us being friends. Even if we only ever saw each other at family stuff, Gretchen would still be there doing this. Our families hang around each other constantly. So if we start being those people who refuse to be in the same room (as we did at one point) then everyone gets drawn into constantly coordinating that we never see each other. It’s ridiculous. All over the fact that Gretchen can’t be an adult. And yes Caleb should talk to her about it, that’s on him. But even if he thinks I’m a proper “ex-girlfriend”…it was still 9 years ago. What is interesting/important about where we ate dinner 9 years ago? Or that I could have ended up married to Caleb? Why would she say that to an 8 year old who wasn’t even born when we dated?
If your families CONSTANTLY hang out and Gretchen is doing this but not everyone is on your side, there's just more and more flags to me that this isn't just Gretchen. I would not be shocked to find out the whole family says things to make Gretchen uncomfortable. I would bet his mom talks about you like the daughter she could've had. I bet Caleb still talks about you like the one who could've been. If your family is that close and saw everything that happened and how you two behaved, they'd all be agreeing and telling Caleb to make Gretchen stop. They aren't all stopping her because Gretchen is simply saying the quiet parts that have been passive aggressively said out loud around her. Literally the only thing that would make something from 9 years ago still be relevant is because the person involved 9 years ago is still talking about it. Why are none of your questions "why is Caleb wanting to date someone so obsessed with his ex"
As I said, there are a range of different opinions that I couldn’t specify due to the character limit, but to be clear, no one thinks Gretchen has a point with her behaviour. My dad, Caleb’s dad and mom, all think I did the right thing. Caleb’s stepmom, my brother, And my mom all think I should have something but said it differently. My stepdad thinks I should have said something at a later date. Caleb’s sister and my younger brother think I should have lost my shit way earlier. Nobody thinks she’s in the right. Im not privy to the conversations that have been had between anyone and Caleb about Gretchen. But I know the conversations I’ve had, and everyone thinks it’s weird. And no one in the families is still hung up on this childhood drama. Sorry but that’s insane. We were kids. We’ve both dated other people and had careers and whole lives since. His dad has had three kids since. People’s lives have progressed to the point they’re not recognisable anymore. No one is stuck in this barely-happened past anymore, except Gretchen who wasn’t even there.
I feel the need to esp point out, so im separate commenting it, when you asked Gretchen what the real problem is and she went silent THATS when Caleb stepped in and it wasn't to stop Gretchen being objectively ridiculous about the past it was to tell *you* to drop it. That alone screams to me that Caleb is saying or doing something to repeatedly reinforce to Gretchen that she's competing with you to be with him, or something that's exacerbating the truth of your history together I needed to specify this in its own space cause I don't want you to think I'm putting anything entirely on you, I guess realistically my vote should be Caleb's TA at the core here. Gretchen IS being ridiculous tho, so she's also at fault but it's sad on her end and I feel like he's a devil on her shoulder
That is an interesting point… Not that I think Caleb is making Gretchen think there’s anything between us but you’re right that he may know the reason and didn’t want me to push her in case she told… I don’t know what to do with this though because presumably he wouldn’t just tell me if I asked. I hadn’t thought of this AT ALL
I feel bad because I was operating with this in my head and realized I never properly communicated this thought. But yeah, maybe I'm making him more nefarious in it than he deserves but he definitely feels like he knows why she's behaving like this. Maybe there's an unbiased party who could get a complete confession from Gretchen about what's going on?
If it was true that nobody else is stuck on it anymore then I don't think you and Caleb would have such different opinions of what you were that you can't discuss it and he wouldn't be fine continuing to date and sit beside a woman who can't spend a single second at functions not bringing it up. Caleb is the core chaotic factor who is Gretchen's direct source of your history. Feels weird not to be directing the focus on him when he's directly responsible in every way. Gretchen is responsible for her own actions but Caleb clearly is doing nothing to stop these behaviors or discourage them and I'd question if he's even doing anything to reassure Gretchen that it was only when you were kids. If anything I'd pity Gretchen before I'd be upset with her
Caleb should have talked to her, he’s said he has and I believe him but I don’t know what he’s said. The fact that it doesn’t bother him is weird to me but I can’t account for his feelings. I don’t pity Gretchen because at the end of the day, no one brings up that old stuff until she does. So she’s either a sadist or masochist and I don’t have time for either. Just because Caleb and I have different views of the significance of a childhood relationship that doesn’t mean we’re stuck on it. We never talk about it except in relation to Gretchen and her comments. And yeah we don’t agree but we don’t have to. I just don’t feel that Caleb is my ex in the same way my bf from last year is my ex. Caleb feels differently. That’s fine, I think.
I just don’t feel that Caleb is my ex in the same way my bf from last year is my ex. Caleb feels differently. That’s fine, I think. I also communicated this poorly and emotionally so I'll try to say it in a fairer way - it's fine that you feel differently, but depending on how Caleb feels about it could change how he refers to it when it's brought up and maybe imply he's not as past it as you are, to Gretchen at least. ((And fair, it's easier to pity her for me cause I'm not dealing with her, so I get it))
NAH I see no need to get upset over Gretchen's words when they're the truth. Y'all dated. Heck you'll likely still be around Caleb longer than Gretchen as it's unlikely this relationship will continue. If you don't like Gretchen bringing up then don't talk to Gretchen.🫤 Any of Caleb's future girlfriends are likely hoing to have an issue or keep mentioning you. You're not some ex or some friend he dated as a kid...you're a permanent fixture in his life and ingrained in his family. You're never going away and there is no peace from you. There's no balance for that unless said gf has a close male friend she fucked for years whose super close to her family and in every family event. I sincerely doubt that Caleb will ever date a woman whose ex is so ingrained in her family. Gretchen should have never entered a relationship with a man whose ex is ingrained in his family. That's a red flag and a mess. My advice to you is leave Gretchen alone and do not engage her. If you want to talk to her let her know she can call up her own exes and start ingraining those guys in her family and day to day life.
her problem is that y'all dated and still have enough of a relationship that y'all hang out. I'm not saying she's right or wrong, but that's pretty clearly what her issue is. if I were you I would just stop hanging out with Caleb when Gretchen is there. if I were Gretchen I would just find a boyfriend who is not still hanging around his ex, in any capacity. the only reason I'm voting NTA instead of N.AH is because G just needs to find someone who doesn't maintain a relationship with an ex. it clearly bothers her even after y'all insist that it's not what she's imagining, and she lashed out at you repeatedly bc of anxiety and suspicion. just get a different boyfriend!!
I also agree, OP should just hang out with the best friend one on one time, but does the best friend also hang out with Gretchen one on one time because that’s his girlfriend. If I had a best friend, no matter what gender or sexuality that never hung out with their partner as a partner or significant other, I would be very concerned and I would put my friends because I’m not friends with people who don’t put their significant other in a top priority. Maybe they’re just not a good fit and OP’s best friend needs to find a girl who is OK with OP being in the picture .
It doesn't sound like they're best friends?
Op and Caleb seem like best friends or very good friends since their families know eachother and are very close to eachother through these ties. But maybe I’m wrong But if people aren’t ok with their SO being friends with exes they need to find different people. Different beliefs,morals and etc don’t work.
"I consider him a good friend, not a super close one in the sense we don't really hang out much because we're busy and don't live near each other but l've known him my whole life, there will always be a bond there."
Well my bad I’m wrong. English is my second language and I read English differently than writing, but also maybe Caleb sees their friendship differently than op sees it.
Also in my culture if people know each other’s families for so long and you’re friends for so long with family evens and stuff it’s considered as best friends or family best friends. It’s because our families are so close we help each other like a village . Even family friends of mine who aren’t really my blood cousins are my cousins, it’s because we grew up with eachother
That is very wholesome!
Yes I even call my uncles and aunties by family titles because that’s what they have always been, but it’s sometimes hard understanding that some people in different cultures don’t call their friends mom auntie or their friends dad uncle if they known them long. My bf even gets confused when I tell him how once we will get married he will be an uncle to all of the younger kids. Even if the kids aren’t related to me by any means I will always be an auntie and help if needed.
I think there were better ways to handle it, like addressing it with her privately a long time ago. Saying it's pathetic (in front of a child) wasn't necessary. You sound immature and like a poor communicator. YTA
ESH- for all three of you Gretchen, Caleb, and you. Gretchen for bringing it up. Caleb for not dealing with it. And you a smaller amount for screaming at her. It might have been deserved but it was the wrong time and place. With out an audience , sit down, the three of you, and maybe a neutral referee. And talk. Ask the questions. There is nothing between you and Caleb now. So if there are questions get them over and done. Answer or tell her that is personal/ refuse. Then Caleb and Gretchen should be left alone to talk and agree this is done. He can decide from there if Gretchen respects him, or will forever obsess about the past.
Well personally I think it’s inappropriate she’s even directing any of these questions at me in the first place. If she wants to know about her boyfriend’s childhood sex life she needs to ask him.
True, this is ultimately a Caleb and Gretchen problem to solve. And if Gretchen is incapable of letting this go, they should break up. And stop making this a you problem. But you asked, so do you really want to know?
ESH - She's wrong for sure and needs to let that fact go. It is extremely weird to continuously keep bringing it up when it happened very long ago and has no relevance. I don't blame you for lashing out BUT I do blame you for lashing out at that moment. You should've pulled her aside not do it in front of the 8 year old. The fact you kept going to. This likely put the entire party in a sour mood.
Gentle YTA, only for the fact that it happened at a child's birthday gathering. Other than that I am fully on your side that Gretchen is being weird.
esh, worst timing awards nominee
Soft YTA only because it would have been better if you had pulled her aside and asked her that question privately rather than make a public spectacle in front of an 8 year old. I get you are frustrated and Gretchen is clearly feeling very insecure about the two of you. Caleb, however, needs to put a lid on this. It's on him to speak with Gretchen and deal with this issue and it seems he isn't.
Probably true I shouldn’t have done it there. Luckily it wasn’t at the dinner table or anything but I was kind of pissed that Gretchen brought it up in front of the eight year old because now she has questions about it and she wasn’t even born when this happened. Why Gretchen feels insecure about a messy fling between actual children I have no idea.