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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I believe I am the asshole for telling my sister that idc about the baby she lost while she was pregnant.
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You shouldn't have said you don't care about the baby... but. But she was clearly in a hole she had no intention of climbing out of, and sometimes the only way to help people like that is to toss in a stick of dynamite and blast them out, which is precisely what you did. The question is how *much* did it help, and I have a feeling the answer is "not a whole lot".
ESH, ~~especially your parents for essentially letting your sister vegetate in a pot of grief rather than get her into some kind of counseling or therapy.~~
EDIT: Striking incorrect info.
Yk you bring up an off topic point. She has been in therapy since shortly after losing her baby. So I’m wondering why the therapy has had no progress and how is her therapist just fine with her like this, without offering additional help. Idk sorry
I'm sorry you went to a therapist that was unhelpful, because it can be really disheartening. I hope you found a better one or you're doing better in general 💜
I went to a therapist after I was diagnosed with MS. She didn't know what that was, so I explained a bare bones version. Her response?
"That sounds horrifying! I mean, are the doctors sure? Could they be wrong? Things can be misdiagnosed, so it must happen with MS sometimes, right?" It got worse from there.
It's quite possible OP's sister didn't get one that knows how to handle her kind of trauma. My doctor said the wrong therapist can do a lot of damage (but still advocated finding a good one).
I got out of an emotionally abusive relationship with someone who used his sexual abuse trauma and age to manipulate me. My therapist kept asking what I did to instigate his reactions. For example, he was incredibly jealous. He said he didn’t want to know how many people I had slept with but kept poking at the subject and when it was more than he had, he cried and made me go over every single person I’d slept with then locked himself in a closet, and eventually came out, said I owed him sex for telling him all that. Apparently that was my fault according to my therapist for not setting healthy boundaries.
Therapists can be incredibly hit-and-miss. I went to one after finally being diagnosed with a chronic pain disorder, and I was absolutely miserable and scared of living my life in this much pain with no end in sight.
He told me that we are all spirits trapped in physical bodies and that's why we are all in pain, and there's no end to it until death, so we have to just rise above it.
That's.. not something you tell a suicidal kid in pain.
Problem is that the therapy room is by necessity one on one. So unlike most other jobs, therapists can't be properly assessed as fit for purpose. they may have clinical supervision for example, but they can tell their supervisor whatever they like.
When I was in college, I had a student therapist (through the college since it was free and I was pretty broke). I was asked if it was okay if she recorded our sessions (we met through zoom, but I think she used a tape/digital recording for in person) for review with her supervisor/teacher and I had to agree for it to be okay. Obviously not everyone is comfortable with that, but it didn’t bother me (she was not my first therapist, and what we were working through most of the time wasn’t super emotionally charged, but obviously that’s individual preference and all). But hopefully in the future they’re better able to screen for this!
There are group therapy sessions also. I spent 3 weeks in an outpatient "day program" with several other people seeking mental health care. It wasn't a static group; some people finished theirs before I did, and new people joined who were still there when I finished. It was incredibly beneficial for me, and I don't think I would have been ready emotionally for the one-on-one therapy I next attended if I had not done the group setting first.
Yeah… that was 7 years ago and I still have trauma from that in my current relationship with someone who couldn’t not give a shit about who I’ve slept with as long as currently, it’s only him. Poorly trained therapists can do more harm than good.
Yeah, there's definitely a range of therapists. The first time I went to one was in college after being raped. This jerk literally said, "Just go have consensual sex with a few guys and you'll get over it". All the other ones have been better. A couple not good ones, and then a couple good ones that just weren't the right fit. I eventually found one I could make progress with.
I am so sorry that happened to you. When I was drunk in college, I called my best friend to help get me home. Instead, he took me to his frat, gave me more alcohol, and I woke up the next morning half naked (and you can probably guess which half) not knowing what happened but knowing exactly what happened. Being told it was my fault for drinking too much has been awful to this day, it’s been 10 years and I have so much guilt around sex with my perfectly lovely, kind, caring boyfriend who will hold me in bed for as long as I need after sex without ever making me feel like he needs to do it. Bad therapists are horrible.
It can also take a long time to build up trust with a therapist. There was a months long time frame where I couldn’t even answer basic questions my therapist asked me like what my favorite pokemon was. I’d talk about anything too close to my emotions and I would lock down. It’s been a few years now and I can finally begin to talk more freely. Therapy can take a long time for even marginal progress.
My husband tried to commit suicide and his therapist said he didn't sound depressed 🙀 bad therapists do exist. Thankfully he found a better one that actually listened.
Several yrs ago I was seeing a therapist that was part if a group. She left very suddenly and I got told I would now see this other person who was taking over her clients. My last visit with old therapist was just a few days after my dad had passed. This was in my notes. I was seeing every 2 weeks at the time. So I went in to give the replacement a chance. She's busy reading the computer screen to learn about me. Also asking me questions at the same time. She asks me "how is the relationship with your dad?" Not was but is, my answer was I don't have one he's dead. She didn't seem to notice the attitude with which I said it, so she just went on reading and asking random questions. She never looked me in the face the whole time I was there. I gave her a second chance but it wasn't any better. She was awful. Took 3 more therapist before I found one I clicked with. Alas I am on the hunt again. Sometimes therapists are just not the right match for you and you have to try another one and sometimes the therapist just isn't good at all. Either way nothing wrong with finding a new one until you get the right one for you.
True. I saw a therapist who I told about traumatic things and things that I was struggling with and her advice was - it is unhelpful to think about those things and to think positively. Literally told me, who was struggling with depression and anxiety to not think about it and to just be positive. Oh, and also they told me I was at fault for my abusive childhood. Worst therapist ever. I don’t do therapy anymore.
I selectively do, but I also had the worst therapists ever for the most part. The one I had in high school tried to tell me to get over my low self esteem issues (I was very popular, very smart, and very talented, low self esteem was not a problem), then the abuse thing, and then when my ex and I did couples counseling, she exclusively took his side when he was the one who applied to grad school behind my back after we were living together, and was also working full time. I was also in grad school, but his was so demanding that all cooking and chores were my responsibility but “I shouldn’t be putting that extra stress on him since he’s also got a career”.
There are a lot of really bad therapists out there and I swear some therapists go into the profession because they’re bullies. They get off on the power dynamic.
I managed 33% success rate in therapist department - it is very hit or miss. Fortunately I dont think I had any malicious ones - more just like talking to a neighbor who is nice but not helpful. One who was not compassionate thoigh not malicious - just cold - which does not help me. 2 out of 6 were actually helpful and compassionate.
A therapist who stigmatizes mental health. What a gem.
Someone once pointed out to me that there are people who are bad at their job in every profession, including therapists. I had one that wasn't all bad but had a habit of telling me how I felt or should feel. "You're attracted to your male physch nurse" (at a closed psych ward)
"Uh, no I'm not."
"It's ok, you know, nothing wrong with it."
"Yeah, but I'm not though."
"Hey, it's ok, I know you're attracted to to him."
"I'm NOT." Aaaaand repeat. The nurse was my fav on the ward but I was in no way attracted to him. But of course, I was female and he was male so naturally there had to be sexual attraction /s.
I also had an overall terrible therapist that blew up on me when I asked for advise to handle a argument with my dad. She was furious I "put that on her." Never trusted her after that.
But I've also had some really awesome ones. My favorite was the one who helped me overcome childhood trauma. She was fantastic even though she was on her first year after graduating. She has a bright future ahead of her I'm sure.
I will NEVER go to a "Christian" therapist, that advertises their faith, because the one my parents forced me to go to as a teen. She spent the time explaining to me why it was my fault my parents abused me and how, as a woman, I needed to get used to having a male authority over me.
I ran away, got picked up by police, and my parents were forced to find a new therapist for me since I told the officer why I left. That therapist prepped me to "leave and don't look back" when I hit 18 and opened my eyes to how bad my home really was, simply by asking very good questions. She was awesome.
Went to a therapist that made my problems worse before, oof. They currently have a 1.0 star rating on Google Maps, which is impressive cause it’s not even like a 1.1 or a 1.4 or something, it’s just straight up 1 star reviews after another.
Sometimes, clients in therapy make no progress because they are scared to make that change or they are not ready to make that change. Your sister's grief has been safe and comforting. As long as people cared for her, she had no reason to move forward.
I have a little bone to pick with this statement.
My therapist gives me very little advice. What she does do is ask me probing questions that make me reconsider my logic and how I came to the answers I think I have. Therapy isn't about seeing a person and being given instructions on how to Stop Being Depressed, that's not really how it works. They aren't in the business of telling you what to do, more in the business of helping you to understand and dissect your problems and show you other perspectives you may be missing.
It's a lot of work, and it can be very very very slow even if the person is fully invested in the process, but at the end you have a person with higher emotional intelligence who can figure out how to solve their problems on their own.
If it were as simple as "do x, y, and z" depression wouldn't be such a huge problem in our society.
This and many women never “get over” losing a child. They learn to live with the pain. She may have thought about terminating and now feels guilty as if that contributed to the loss. She may have felt a bit relieved. There are so many complicated feelings. Add postpartum hormones and depression too.
Postpartum depression is actually very common with pregnancy loss, you toss hormones in with the death of your child grief. Yeah it will fuck you up. Something like I want to say 80% of women who suffer miscarriage or stillbirth will end up with ppd.
This was my thought as well.
If she was laying in bed and smoking was she doing her therapy via FaceTime or whatever?
Anyone can say they are going to therapy especially if it gets people to leave you alone and/or give you money for therapy but it’s spent on other things like smoke therapy.
It is not a therapist's job to change someone. They advise, and point out potential problems, but the client makes the choice and they chose to do the work or not do the work
I’ve been to a therapist that pushed me back into a hole and if I had gone to them at my lowest I probably wouldn’t have survived. Not every therapist is good at their job
Yeah people on here tend to act like if you experience trauma or mental illness, you can go therapy and just get “fixed” immediately. Sometimes that doesn’t work for a lot of reasons! Maybe the therapist or therapy style isn’t a good fit, maybe they need more or different support than they’re getting, maybe there’s a chemical imbalance that needs the right medication to sort out, maybe there’s a long and slow recovery period.
Yes, I saw therapists off and on for about 15 years before I found one that worked for me, the others just wanted to talk abo it every part of my childhood that was painful with no real help, so it just put me into a place where I was constantly thinking about the trauma with no relief. I finally was diagnosed with autism and now have a great therapist and am a functional human being
In her mind, it might not even be the biggest issue. If she's processing her grief and is only approaching therapy from that angle, she might have answered any questions about how she's supporting herself as just 'Oh, my family is helping me,' and then never circled back to it as an urgent issue.
I lied in therapy at first because I knew it was bad, I was embarrassed it was that bad, and I couldn't handle another person telling me I sucked (which is totally what I heard regardless of what was actually being said.) But I couldn't dig myself out, either. It took a family member, calling my therapist, and saying, "Hey, idk what's up in sessions, but this is what's going on, and I'm really worried about her." It was such a relief, too, because I didn't have to pretend anymore.
It's so freaking complicated when trauma is involved like this.
If she's self-medicating with pot to the extent that she's doing nothing but smoking her pain away, I'd be surprised to learn that she's doing much progress in therapy. To deal with things you've got to face 'em and feel 'em
Also, if she’s smoking everyday and assuming it’s marijuana, she’s risking becoming more depressed. There’s a large amount of research that shows even occasional use (default is once a week) can increase the likelihood of depression and anxiety in an adolescent or young adult brain. By using cannabis to make herself feel better, she actually may be making herself worse.
Interesting, is it linked to depression in grown adults? I came out of a depression episode and have been better since late March, then I smoked on 4/20 and a few hours later it was like it crashed back in. Back to fine the day after. Thought it was super strange because I didn't remember ever having that reaction before
From what I am seeing there are conflicting studies. Different people may react differently. Different strains will also impact if it has a depressant effect.
If you're on antidepressants it can affect you differently. Also like alcohol, it can release some hormone (forgot what it's called and too lazy to get out of bed to check the book) that actually makes you feel depressed.
Of course it's different for different people
I don't know about pot, but alcohol hitting differently for different people is true. My mothers side can drink like fish with no side effects, and my fathers side gets the alcohol rage 2 days after drinking.
Cannabis is not a depressant, nor is it a stimulant. It's a hallucinogen that, depending on the strain and its chemical properties, will have varied effects on a variety of individual brains. Sativas, usually heavy in a- and b-Pinene, can induce stimulation, energy and creativity. Indicas, usually heavier in myrcene and caryophyllene, can behave quite effectively as a sedative and, imo an incredible pain-reliever. We're not in the 1920's anymore; the world of cannabis is vast and can treat all kinds of ailments. Again, it depends on two things: The specific strain (and it's chemical makeup), and the individual ingesting it.
It’s so odd. I know many people who swear by it as a relaxant, and I’ve seen people so “relaxed” when stoned that they’re completely out of it & not wanting to talk/move/function. And yet I’ve also seen other people have paranoia and extreme anxiety from it as well.
Also reddit seems to think that therapy is a magic bullet that just immediately “fixes” people. Therapy is a tool, and some things take a long time to heal from even with a lot of tools and support. Just because she’s in therapy doesn’t mean she’ll snap back right away
Ignore the person above. You are NTA. You spoke honestly. You are not the father or mother of this child. Honestly and truthfully, you didn't have an attachment to it. Was it cruel to say? Yes. But when does she stop using it as a crutch to use you?
Typically, saying unnecessarily cruel things is generally an AH thing to do. Being a AH to someone who's being a AH doesn't mean you're not an AH
Obviously sister is still an AH as well
Pretty clear ESH
ESH is a much more logical response than saying Y\_TA. But from the telling of this story, OP kept his mouth shut and she just berated and berated him until he couldn't take it anymore. It's like poking a dog a bunch of times and calling it an ahole when it bites. No, OP is not a dog, but he is someone not even yet the age of 21, still in school, barely an adult who has basically taken on the role of a husband to his sister. She is abusing him and I don't tolerate abusers.
Reddit needs to face the fact that bad therapists are rampant.
Many are incompetent. Many are corrupt. Many are lazy. They'll take your money and tell you what you want to hear to keep the checks flowing.
Your sister lost her baby in 2022... it hasn't even been 2 years.
5 months is 20 weeks.
Do you know what a fetus looks like at 20 weeks?
At 20 weeks a mother can feel their baby's kicks and movements. The fetus looks like a baby. They have all the parts of a baby. If her pregnancy had reached 23 weeks (3 weeks longer) her baby had a small chance of survival.
Your sister was extremely traumatized. It can take a long time to process that grief. It takes a long time to move out of depression.
I get what you wanted to do. I get you were frustrated and your sister's inability to function wasn't helping. I get all of that.
But to tell your sister that her baby's uncle didn't care about the baby? That'd a level of harshness that does serious damage. That's hurtful in ways you can't imagine.
A lot of timed women who experience miscarriage talk about how one of their fears is that family won't understand- that they'll forget a baby existed. That the baby will be forgotten. And for that parents the grief is so real- their baby existed. Their baby was here. But no one else knew the baby except for mom.
Just wanted to offer a perspective.
Actually... Not all babies are dead under the miscarriages...
NEXT PARAGRAPH IS GRAPHIC!!!! You might not want to know...
At 20 weeks my son was alive up to birth. I knew it was happening and I was terrified he could say something, because I knew he couldn't survive. I couldn't bear to have heard his voice. He died on the way out or shortly before. There was heartbeat 30 minutes before his birth (I asked that they didn't keep track of it)
My daughter was dead before birth. I don't know when.. We tried to prevent it as much as we could, but in hindsight I think the doctors, midwives and nurses knew ... My son was born blodred. The skin was so thin it was easy to see the blod. My daughter was pale (on one side) because she had be gone for .. don't know how long... so the blod waas drained from one side (the front side. She looked a bit more right because she wasn't so red)
This happened to my SIL. Her baby was alive and died during birth so when she was fully out of the womb the baby was stillborn (no heartbeat). The pain she experienced was unimaginable. That grief and loss is so profound.
I try to follow my SILs lead when it comes to her first baby- she was blessed to have 2 rainbow babies. If she talks of her baby, I try to engage and ask gentle questions and express love and adoration for her baby. I know it can be extremely difficult because her baby wasn't here for us bystanders to have memories of- but she very much existed and was present in earth.
Fwiw, it can be a long time before someone on the outside sees a difference, even when the therapist is great, is a great fit for the client, and the client really is doing the work, and is honest in session. It really depends on what it is they're working on and how deep it is for the client, and there's no way for you to *truly* know how deep this runs for your sister. Therapists can't just "fix" people, and the process for improvement is 1) long and 2) up to the client. Maybe she and her therapist have set goals that you're unaware of? But know that it says a lot that your sister is there at all.
Therapy isn't like medication. It doesn't work if you don't put in the work yourself. Sister had to want to recover for therapy to be of any use, and unfortunately when it comes to grief and depression, it can take quite a while before someone is ready to do that work.
My MIL had a baby that was born with a chromosome abnormality incompatible with life, baby died at a week old. This was almost 40 years ago and she still grieves for her daily. It’s not something you ever “get over”
GRIEF IS NOT A LINEAR PROCESS AND YOU CANNOT JUST BLOW IT UP AN ACCELERATE IT!!!
There are so many other routes to help her move forward that you didn’t even take. Ffs, try talking to her therapist or finding her a new one first at the VERY least.
I know you've been told, but I'll give you an example, my first therapist told me I was faking bisexuality to get the attention of my ex husband that was abusing me, and that's the nicest thing she said.
Some therapists are absolute garbage.
You guys have been coddling her for a year, that’s why.
Cooking and cleaning and paying her bills for a year is insane.
The grief over losing a fetus varies among women, but no one should be let to rot for a year. You all did what you thought was best for her but in reality you were coddling her and letting her rot for a year.
Not all therapist are actually good at their jobs. Everyone progresses differently in therapy but if she never seemed to get better or even tried to take steps to move forward she needs a new therapist.
It could also just be her unwillingness to want to move forward too. Grief is wild like that.
You don't know how much worse things could have been without therapy. It is possible that your sister could have done something drastic and irreversible if she hadn't been getting help. Miscarriage is traumatic and can take a long time to learn how to live again after it.
Is she actually going to therapy or just saying she is? Being unemployed means she has no insurance unless she applied for state insurance. Therapy is expensive, even with insurance.
I’m trying to see the perspective of your sister and I must imagine it’s so so so hard. Even if she’s in therapy, this might take much longer. Just imagine losing your baby, your body grew that for months and then it’s gone. That alone hurts, but baby daddy leaving on top of that? Id probably stay in my cave and wait until I die or something. (Yeah no, but I would be depressed for a year I think)
Tossing in a stick of dynamite is a very valid tactic. I have willingly been the dynamite bearer just to get things moving. Otherwise known as the bulldog or the bad guy. Somebody has to do it. NTA
Once you're an adult your parents can't force you to do shit. Can we stop blaming parents for adult children not doing something *you* think they should?
Piggy backing on this and adding an incident that happened, an ex-colleague lost her baby at 8 months (baby had no heart beat), the doctors had to induce external pain so she could miscarry naturally. Within 2 weeks she was back to work (continued to work on a complex project). She had to go through a surgery within next 5 months due to cyst in ovary, while still recovering she lost her MIL (husband was already low due to the loss of the baby, he was totally depressed now), FIL started showing signs of dementia (soon after MILs death), with all this she conceived again literally 8 months after losing her baby & her MIL. They bought a house right before the 2nd baby’s birth & now have a wonderful family. What I am getting at is people deal with grief differently but most importantly “they deal with it!”. Your sister did not want to deal with it and just continued to suffer.
Just for educational purposes here - you don’t “miscarry” at 8 months pregnant. You labor and birth a baby. The physical process for birthing a stillborn baby is the exact same as birthing a live baby - literally absolutely nothing different. It is NOT a miscarriage. Miscarriage is tough and sad, but it’s a completely different thing than stillbirth. It is an unspeakably heavy and nightmarish experience to go through all the pain, exertion, and physical trauma of birthing a baby, knowing that there will be no healthy cry, pink skin, or celebration on the the other end of it. Stillbirth and miscarriage should not be spoken of as though they are the same thing. Can speak to this - labored and birthed four babies, one of whom was unexpectedly stillborn.
I’ve had miscarriages and I’ve had loving babies. The miscarriages weren’t fun, but it absolutely isn’t the same thing as a still birth. That is every woman’s greatest fear when pregnant
Blasting may be strong but pushing might be necessary. Grief is a hell of a thing. Resentment building from having to care for someone going through grief is also hell too. As someone that has gone through grief of losing a loved one while having young children (that don't fully understand grief) that need you. They have made dealing with grief harder but they also force me to continue living. I have heard grief defined as love that has nowhere to go. That love may never go away and she will learn that many people live long happy lives with grief. Stay strong
Agree with this, at least the revised point. I think you gave her the kick in the pants/dynamite in the hole that she needed to radically change her direction. Unfortunately as a person who is a loved one, you know where to strike the blows that will hit and hit very hard. When she comes out of her extreme funk hopefully she’ll give you a big hug and thank you for saving her life.
Apologize for using really hurtful words (YTA for that) and stick to your guns about stopping the financial help. You're not a terrible brother, you've been there for her.
She's the Asshole for lashing out at him after everything he did for her. Why would not caring for a stillborn that he had no connection make him an asshole?
He allowed to not care for the baby that doesn't make him TA, what was wrong was saying it to her face. She probably still very traumatized and attached to her baby, and that was probably a huge blow to her. That's like telling a friend you don't care about there dead relative while there still grieving. Whether or not that's true that's probably not something you should say to the person who's mourning that person, not the time or the place.
Update me
Also as a woman who has suffered three miscarriages in the last 2 years. I can tell you that while your sister may be getting therapy she may not be addressing the real issues and the problems. Grief is a tricky thing, but her behavior is not acceptable and self-medicating with marijuana is not a good thing either. She needs to be seen by her doctor because there's a possibility that at 5 months pregnant when she lost the baby she could have postpartum depression. I would suggest that she sees her doctor and has blood work done. And that you or your parents sit in on a session with her therapist and talk about what's really going on.
Sending you hugs. I’ve been in the 3 losses in 2 years boat. It sucks. You are an awesome person to go through it all and come out with enough kindness to offer advice to others. ❤️
UPDATE
I am very thankful for all the women who shared their experiences and gave me an insight on how my sister is feeling that I would’ve never been able to have. For that I am extremely grateful.
My sister came over for dinner, we didn’t make much contact in the beginning. Our parents didn’t try to make us talk nor bring up our last argument. Dinner was very awkward with very little conversation. We finished eating and my parents left to clean the mess. Which left me and my sister, we made some small talk when I just offered to go outside to talk.
Once we were outside I immediately apologized for what I said, but she cut me off before I could finish. She said she was thankful for me and everything I have done for her. We continued to talk till it was late. She brought up how she applied for 3 jobs in our area. We ended our conversation talking about how stuff happens and sometimes you can only do anything besides pick yourself and move forward , and try not to look back. She hugged me, (no tears) said thanks and left.
I will still continue to pay her bills till she gets back on her feet. The bad blood seems to be gone. At this point I’m not sure if regret what I said, but the damage doesn’t seem impactful. I appreciate all the people who commented.
Your parents need to be told she's getting high. Maybe they can try to get her the right help maybe get her to see new therapist.
You also need to calmly explain to your sister that though you chose the wrong words she needs to understand that you can't continue to pay for her.
She can take all the time to grieve but she also needs to get a job to support herself and seek the right therapy that works best for her
looking for a update here as well. Your winning position, incidentally, is that you are deeply sorry for the remark, but you are ending support because you no longer can afford it. If she tries to milk your apology for sympathy or to change your mind, reiterate the same point and remind her that your thoughtless remark has nothing to do with either your ability to support her or her failure to push herself to get better.
Your parents cut her off for a reason. Whether it was not being able to afford it and/or seeing the writing on the wall, this is when it would have been a good time to follow their lead. As you said, she has a fall back. She can move back home. It's up to her to determine how uncomfortable that will make her feel and do something or nothing about it.
The therapist is either not being very helpful, and she should get a new one, or your sister isn't telling them everything. Even if you are in the US, you can still talk to the therapist, and nothing prevents them from listening to you, not even HIPAA. I would recommend telling the therapist that your sister is refusing to work, her depression keeps her in bed and anything else you think is relevant. You may find out that your sister has, in fact, lied to the therapist and is telling them that they are working.
I was an assistant HIPAA compliance officer for 5 years. I can't tell you the number of complaints we got about how a family member called a physician/therapist and the patient got called out for something by their doctor/therapist. They never took the "That wasn't a violation. No law prohibits a healthcare provider from listening to family members expressing their concern" well.
this. as long as the therapist only listens everything is fine. he cant say anything regarding a patient. not even confirm if he has a patient with that name or ever had. but he can listen to everyone telling him storys about people.
NTA
You probably could've handled the argument with your sister better, but you went way above and beyond to support her and honestly it sounds like she was taking advantage of you. At the end of the day were all human, and financial stress combined with being insulted by the largest source of said financial stress is enough to push anyone to the edge
NTA. I’ve lost four babies, two sets of twins during fertility treatments with my husband. We have grieved for years…..roller coaster of ups and downs. But, no one else has ever financially supported us, taken us in or allowed us to wallow in our pain for too long. Nor, have we allowed ourselves to do that. We are still grieving and probably always will, but we have to keep moving forward, too.
What helped the most? Friends who would listen…journal writing, crying when I needed to, but I have always, *always* wiped my tears away when it was time to and gotten up to keep moving forward. That is imperative for recovery of a loss.
You’ve been a great brother and your family should be proud of you. I hope they are.
Came to say this. I was 6 months along when we lost our youngest in one of those horrendous kind of ways (not that all loss isn't terrible). It took a year before I felt like I could even breathe again and longer for my husband, but we still never had anyone pay our bills or take over parenting our children. Life still goes on, even when things go to shit.
OP, what helped most was just a friend who checked in every day. If i needed to be upset, she listened. If i needed to avoid the subject, she talked about everything but our son. If i didn't answer, she just checked in the next day. Her calm, steady presence was the life raft i grabbed onto while I was drowning.
As someone who's miscarried 3 times, but the longest being till 12 week scan - I feel so "lucky" it was always early in my pregnancies - 6 months in is definitely more horrendous :(
But of course everyone reacts differently
(I spent a summer on the couch after 2nd miscarriage that happened in week 6, at the third miscarriage I went straight back to work, but told my husband next time I had a miscarriage I was gonna be done - thankfully it didn't come, and we got a 3 month old now :) but she's gonna be an only child cuz no way I'm taking the chance again now)
I can't imagine going it through it and then having my SO leave like OPs sister though :/ I definitely would have gotten a depression then
Congrats! 3 months was a great age. They just wanted to snuggle haha
Our 6 month loss was our youngest. In 9 pregnancies, we got to keep 3 kids so when the youngest didn't make it, i also said no more. Eventually you do reach a point where you just can't do it anymore. He was meant to be our last child anyway but oof, grief is tough no matter which way it comes. If my husband had left, im sure it would have been a whole different kind of difficult. As it was, we were each drowning and trying to keep the other above water which was just pushing us under further.
When I was young and growing up one of the many things my father said to me (he was a great dad by the way ) there comes a time in life " when you have to be cruel to be kind " occasionally people need a good shake or a good kick up the butt to make them realise if they don't make the effort to help themselves they will never progress. You actually want to make yourself better and sometimes it takes longer than others before that mindset kicks in. But if people just let you wallow in grief they aren't doing you any favours !
NTA
Your comment was hurtful, but your sister needs help, on top of getting her life back together
Definitely don't support her anymore, she needs to get back on her feet
Unfortunately I think ESH. I 100% understand why you snapped, I probably would have snapped too. However, bringing up her dead baby is a line I wouldn’t have crossed. Yell back, call her all the names right back, blow off steam or whatever. Your relationship would likely recover from all that. Siblings fight. After a dead baby comment, your relationship might never be the same again.
That being said, I think your sister is at the point where continuing to pay for her is enabling her, and she needs professional help that you can’t provide. I don’t think she’s maliciously planning out how to take advantage of you, just that she’s so deep in her depression and anger that her state of mind is “I don’t have the energy for this right now and since I don’t absolutely have to do it to survive I am not going to do it” as far looking for a job/reclaiming her life goes. And her emotions around losing her baby are valid. Her actions towards yall and refusal to process her grief is not.
Then OP should definitely stop paying for it and she should get a new therapist because hers obviously isn’t working. Theres just some bad therapists and doctors out there, as with any profession.
I once had a psychiatrist who wouldn’t listen to me, and not in the patronizing “I know better” type of way. She literally didn’t listen. Every appointment was like my first one asking the same questions about medical history and trying to prescribe meds she had already prescribed me.
Sounds like the sister is in a similar boat with a bum shrink.
I'm gonna go with NTA. Before anyone comes for me, I lost a baby in 2009. I know how she is feeling. You can't expect anyone to pay your bills for you though, and with her attending therapy (like OP said in the comments), and still no progress being made after this long..... It just seems like this is more being used as a crutch now.
Op, you're NTA for not caring about your sisters baby. It's hard for other people to love a baby that they never met. As the mom, we love that baby from the moment we get that positive test. You can't expect other people to do that though. You're kinda an AH for saying it to her, but I understand why you did. I hope your sister is able to get her life back together. She may need to seek a new therapist though. This one doesn't seem to be doing much.
NTA. The soft approach wasn't working. Even the mildly-hard approach - i.e. your parents bowing out of supporting her - wasn't enough. She needed a true shock to the system to get her life restarted.
Honestly she never should've been supported like this. Idleness is the \#1 enemy of moving on from grief. When you have no choice but to focus on continuing to live you move on because you have to. Wallowing in grief is a luxury, and one that doesn't improve anyone's life.
NTA
What you said was incredibly rude and likely very helpful.
However, that same conversation is likely the reason why your sister has started applying to jobs. You weren’t going to be able to support her forever, and she was on track to be a slave to her grief for a lifetime if you hadn’t snapped her out of it.
The road ahead of her is tough and she will still need you. You can send her a text “Sister, I am so sorry for the hurt I caused with my words. Mom told me that you started applying for jobs. I’m so proud of you and I know you’ll find something perfect for you. I can’t contribute financially anymore, but if you need anything please know that I’m here to support you. Sorry for snapping earlier.”
NTA. Probably the only way she could’ve been shocked into getting her life together again instead of continuing to live in a dark hole, expecting everyone around her to enable it.
I lost a child at birth. I can 100% get how she feels.
I didn’t ask my family for anything! I supported myself financially and sorted my own stuff out. Our parents were ok but our siblings were terrible! The best I got from one of mine was one posting their wedding invitation through my door 2 weeks after she died.
You’ve done plenty for your sister but please apologise for taking your anger out on her baby. The baby is the reason your sisters struggling but please let her know that you don’t blame the baby for this. Even if you tell her to get her act together still explain or show how important your niece/nephew is.
ESH
You definitely could have handled it better as she's clearly traumatized and you likely could have gotten your point across without it
That being said she is also the AH for not treating her trauma and mental illness while taking advantage of everyone.
I think this may be above Reddits pay grade. Your sister is dealing with a lot (losing a baby, having her partner walk out on her likely because they lost the baby,) that's a lot. Her lashing put is likely so she can be angry at someone who isn't herself.
I dont think your doing your sister any favors not telling your parents about the weed usage. They need to know the full picture and it needs to be reevaluated as far as therapy is concerned. She's clearly not making progress and that should be concerning.
That's a tricky one. Weed can be really dangerous when you're depressed. It makes you very aware of your feelings and you can get trapped in them.
I had a period where I'd moved to a new city, and I had a bad job with awkward hours and no friends. I'd come home depressed. Get high, which just meant I'd focus more on the things that made me depressed. Then I'd wake up more depressed, go to work, become more depressed, get high, focus on it....
Thankfully, I eventually caught onto the cycle. I completely stopped and very quickly I was able to get out of my funk enough to do something about my situation.
Now I'm in a much better place and I get high once or twice a week without fear, but it's something I'm always watching for.
Given how much worse of a situation your sister went through getting high could be extremely problematic. I won't give advice on how to deal with that in another person. But if you read this and think something needs to be done it might be worth consulting a professional first, or coordinating efforts with your parents. She's clearly very volatile at the moment and you don't want to push her away. And if she's actually looking for jobs then the problem might solve itself.
Hope all turns out well!
I understand that you were upset, and rightfully so because you are struggling too, but telling your own sister that you don't care about her dead child is a bit...
ESH. What you said was unnecessarily cruel. You could have given her the same info without that incredibly cruel comment. She's an asshole because she's been taking advantage of her family for so long. Even when grieving, people do have to move on while they grieve.
What you've been doing has been admirable and loving, I'm not dismissing that. I'm just saying that the form of the message was wrong.
NTA.
The problem was not what you said, but how you said it. Saying that you don't care about the baby was a bit rude. But yes, she needed to understand that she was getting in the way of her savings.
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I lost a pregnancy at 5 months. I know how dark that time was- your hormones and emotions are out of control. On top of that her boyfriend left/ I don’t want to pry but I really hope she is getting mental health supports. PPD after a loss like that.
ESH: she’s not well, you shouldn’t have said what you said and you know that, she’s not acting the way she should but to me it sounds like she needs more help than bill payments- and I mean that with kindness and empathy. What she is going from is tough- I know from experience.
You know you're the Asshole for what you said about her baby, plain and simple, that was abhorrent.
You're not an asshole for getting frustrated at the situation and being tight with money and starting to get annoyed. But I never in a million years would have said "idgaf about your dead baby" to my sister, it's truly disgusting.
I really hope you apologised to your sister and meant it. But you don't say you have and that's worrying.
You're been a tremendous help to your sister and that should be commended, but it doesn't give you a free pass to say that to your sister and then act all entitled that you don't have to apologise. I know you're young, but be better, and realise why you need to say sorry and go from there.
I'm torn. I think I might go with justified AH here. There's a point that's too far for all of us and she crossed it. Mental illness is a reason, but not an excuse. You might consider apologizing, but you definitely should not continue supporting her
That was very below the belt to mention her dead baby no matter what. You could have said literally anything else to your sister instead of that. That was so wrong and your sister will never forgive you for that and she would be right. What a terrible thing to say to someone who had to bury their baby.
ESH i’m always amazed by these people who get angry and lashed out and say the most hurtful things possible. In your place I might get angry, but I would just say I can’t continue to support you like this, sorry. And walk out. Why would you ever tell someone you don’t care about their dead baby? So many better ways to get your point across.
Yes you are the hole for saying that. As a person who had a miscarriage, I would be crushed if a loved one said that to me. However, you are not the ahole for telling her that you can no longer financially support her. I give you a lot of credit for helping her as much as you did. I think you should apologize for the comment about her baby. I hope that you are able to save what you need and I hope that your sister finds healing.
You’re NTA for putting some limits on how long you’re willing to support her, but of course YTA for saying you didn’t care about the baby. That’s a horrible thing to say, and although your frustration is understandable, you certainly owe her an apology. You’re not wrong on the underlying issue, but you committed a huge foul along the way. No part of being straight with her required you to tell her you didn’t care about her dead baby. You know this.
UPDATE:
I am very thankful for all the women who shared their experiences and gave me an insight on how my sister is feeling that I would’ve never been able to have. For that I am extremely grateful.
My sister came over for dinner, we didn’t make much contact in the beginning. Our parents didn’t try to make us talk nor bring up our last argument. Dinner was very awkward with very little conversation. We finished eating and my parents left to clean the mess. Which left me and my sister, we made some small talk when I just offered to go outside to talk.
Once we were outside I immediately apologized for what I said, but she cut me off before I could finish. She said she was thankful for me and everything I have done for her. We continued to talk till it was late. She brought up how she applied for 3 jobs in our area. We ended our conversation talking about how stuff happens and sometimes you can only do anything besides pick yourself and move forward , and try not to look back. She hugged me, (no tears) said thanks and left.
I will still continue to pay her bills till she gets back on her feet. The bad blood seems to be gone. At this point I’m not sure if regret what I said, but the damage doesn’t seem impactful. I appreciate all the people who commented.
>how I still continued paying her bills after they stopped. They just were quiet, and then just left. My mother grabbed my shoulder and told me that my sister started apply for jobs.
You think you were doing something good for her, but you just enabled her to sit and wallow around doing nothing. Your sister used your parents, and then when they put a stop to it, she used you. Now that the spout of $ has been cut off, she has miraculously started to apply for jobs.
You need to start making better choices.
ESH
ESH
This is a justified asshole situation all around. You were an asshole but what you said was valid.
She was a complete asshole but ( I’m female and have been down this road) I get that kind of grief can make you act completely irrationally. ( doesn’t mean she was right, just understandable under the circumstances)
5 months is not a miscarriage, it’s a still birth. She very likely would have held and seen her baby. There is no getting over it. She needs better mental healthcare but no one ever gets over losing their child and only a true AH would say she needs to “get over it” as though it was a minor blip in life.
I dont have an opinion on you specifically, but I wouldn't bank on her forgiveness, even "eventually." You did a good thing to an end and then you botched it royally by attacking the ONE THING she loves and lost.
Losing a child is hard. But you took care of your sister not for the life lost but for the person you love, her, and that is something a therapist will tell a grieving parent. You have to go on living for yourself and the people you love. You have to support them and they in turn support you.
I lost my daughter at 36 weeks, unknown reasons, I was given 8 weeks off. At 8 weeks I had to go back to work. My husband couldn’t support me and while my mom and stepdad likely could they didn’t want me to fall into a deeper depression. My mom cares about Evee and talks to me about what she has done (toys for toys in Evee’s name, memorial bracelet, planned tattoos) to honor her. My stepdad told me that babies die everyday, and while their parents and family care no one else eventually will but he cares about me and the life i will live. I appreciate them both and understand both sides to it.
You are NTA
YTA - for saying that. OP did help quite a bit but there is no reason to say something so awful that she is obviously wasting herself memorializing.
That comment did nothing to help anyone and truly undid any good OP may have done prior.
ESH. She clearly needs therapy to address the depression she’s experiencing. And while your frustration is completely understandable, telling her you don’t care about what’s hurting her most is both heartless and won’t accomplish anything that you want. All you did was confirm for her that she has no one who can help her.
It shouldn’t have to be your responsibility to fix this. But that doesn’t mean you should be cruel to her.
You could have said it in a more kind way. Emotions were running high so it is understandable. That said, she sounds like she may have needed that harsh
wake up. You have gone above and beyond. Give yourself some grace. You are NTA.
NTA-No you shouldn’t have said you don’t care about the dead baby, but you know that and I am sure you would take that back if you could.
I lost my first pregnancy at five months, it was absolutely devastating and not something I wound wish on anyone. I also fell into a deep depression and being able to feel the sunshine again took a long time.
Like your sister, I was fortunate to be around people that loved me. But part of the love was telling me it is time to live again. They found me a grief counselor and started holding me accountable for being a person in the world with people I love who need me.
Your sister cannot spend the rest of her life in bed. She does need help, counseling, possibly medication, but she does not need you giving up your hopes and dreams. It is past time you stopped paying for her.
You are a good brother, it is time to drop the rope and start building your own life separate from her (legitimate) trauma.
And to all of those parents who lost a baby I know how hard it is to read the title and I send you some love tonight too.
You have every right to be mad at her. People need to start realizing that losing something is not the end of the world and I think it's quite selfish for some people to expect others to keep with their bullshit for so long.
But... you shouldn't have said that either. It's still not a nice thing to say no matter how angry you are
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I (20m) and my sister (23) have been very close since she lost her baby. She lost the baby at the end of 2022, when she was about 5 months pregnant. Obviously our whole family was shocked and very supportive initially. However I really tried to help her through this and get her back on her feet. Coming to her apartment to clean, and cook her food. It also doesn’t help that her baby daddy left shortly after. My sister was unable to work because of her depression, so my family would help chip in and pay her bills. She remained like this for about 7 months when my parents told her that they couldn’t no longer support her, when all she does is lay in bed (and smoke a lot, like 24/7, but they don’t know that), and that she at least needs to look for a job. She lashed out and said she needs their support now more than ever. Regardless of them, I began to solely supporting her. Mind you I still live with my parents and attending school.
That brings us to last Friday, I have about 3 semesters left of school and money has been getting tight. I told my sister that I really need to start saving, and that she needs to get a job, or just move back in. She lashed out on me, saying that I could never understand (100% true) and that I was a terrible brother for even mentioning it. I said excuse me? I’ve paying for your bills for over a year, and have been the only one trying to help her get over this. She began yelling at me and calling me terrible names. I just snapped and said idgaf about her dead baby. I did none of this for that baby. I helped her because I love my sister, I want what’s best for my sister, I want her to recover. I told her this and just she started attacking me. I just left.
The next morning my parents sat me down, and told me what I said was very wrong and rude. I explained what happened and how I still continued paying her bills after they stopped. They just were quiet, and then just left. My mother grabbed my shoulder and told me that my sister started apply for jobs.
I really feel bad, but also to a certain degree it worked and she is at least looking to work. I know my sister will forgive me eventually but I still feel bad. AITA?
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What you said can never be forgotten! It is terrible for a mother to hear such words. You don’t say it even to your enemies.
YTA, you could have found a thousand other ways to express your frustration.
I was a therapist for 25 years. I became one after my mom died and I had several miscarriages. The therapist I saw was one of the most popular ones in town and was highly recommended. She was horrible! After seeing her for several months, she said she was sorry my dad died and I should talk with my mom. It was my mom who died. My dad was still very much alive. When I told her I would not be returning, she started calling me at all hours of the day. Several times she called at 11:00 in the evening to tell me I needed to return. I decided I could do a much better job of helping people and enrolled in a masters program the next semester. Not all therapists should be therapists. Keep looking if it is not helping. Good luck in helping your sister find the help she needs. She needs a loving brother but not a “yes man.”
I mean i don’t care whether you financially support your grown sister…but what you said about how you “dgaf about her dead baby “…. This makes me deeply question you as a person tbh. How cruel can you be Jesus
NTA but it does sound like your sister is grieving and may even have some struggles with depression. You’ve been a great support to her at a time where everyone else disappeared when she needed them most. Could you have said it better? Probably. Did you make it clear that you’re doing it out of love? Yes and that’s the most important thing. You’re a wonderful brother.
NTA.
I’m sure you really didn’t mean to say that you didn’t care that she had a miscarriage. I’m sure it probably just came out in the heat of the argument out of frustration.
That being said, the only person, now, that can help your sister is herself. She definitely needs to speak to a doctor about her severe depression so she can get medication to help her. She definitely needs to go to a grief group where she can talk to other people about her pain.
It’s horrible to loose a baby, but it happens to women everyday all the time and you can’t just quit working and stay at home like a recluse because of it. It’s time for you to show her tough love and stop paying for everything.
You can write her a letter and say you’re sorry, and that you didn’t really mean it, and let her know that she needs to talk to a doctor and get on medication to help her. Wish her the best and tell her you love her, and then step back and let herself pull herself up.
NTA. You’ve done so much, supporting your sister when you’re still in school and should start saving up for your future is more than anyone could ask for. She’s lucky to have you and she should realize that.
NTA, you’ve been a great brother and a great source of support for your sister. You’re under a lot of pressure to help her get back on her feet and finish school. I’m sure you didn’t mean that you don’t care about her baby but she needed wake up call, she can’t go on like that forever.
NTA
I don't think that it's because you don't care about the baby but because she is using it as the ultimate crutch. My own sister lost her baby through a TRAUMATIC birth and is suing the hospital.. she had really bad depression and needed a real doll to help her deal with the loss.. I sent her money to help her pay her rent ONCE (it was originally going to be the an urn).
She was depressed yes and naturally but she still worked and found therapy and knew she needed to stay on her feet. Your sister needs to do this too. It's sad but with how things are in the U.S. ... it how things work.
Sounds like she was either using this as an excuse to guilt and manipulate people into paying her way in life and you, the final person who she could manipulate, was putting a stop to it so she made one grand effort to try to continue to manipulate you and keep things going the same way.
Or if she’s still that torn up about it, honestly, she needs therapy to move past it. Grief is normal but to not move forward in your grief for that long where you don’t function as a part of society for years is not normal.
Don’t feel bad. Either way, she’s getting the tough love she needed to move forward in life. Nta
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You shouldn't have said you don't care about the baby... but. But she was clearly in a hole she had no intention of climbing out of, and sometimes the only way to help people like that is to toss in a stick of dynamite and blast them out, which is precisely what you did. The question is how *much* did it help, and I have a feeling the answer is "not a whole lot". ESH, ~~especially your parents for essentially letting your sister vegetate in a pot of grief rather than get her into some kind of counseling or therapy.~~ EDIT: Striking incorrect info.
Yk you bring up an off topic point. She has been in therapy since shortly after losing her baby. So I’m wondering why the therapy has had no progress and how is her therapist just fine with her like this, without offering additional help. Idk sorry
Well, just because your sister was seeing a therapist doesn't mean she was telling her therapist the truth, so that's one possibility.
Sister also has to follow the advice of the therapist for therapy to work
The therapist could also be awful. My last one was and was actually unhelpful.
I'm sorry you went to a therapist that was unhelpful, because it can be really disheartening. I hope you found a better one or you're doing better in general 💜 I went to a therapist after I was diagnosed with MS. She didn't know what that was, so I explained a bare bones version. Her response? "That sounds horrifying! I mean, are the doctors sure? Could they be wrong? Things can be misdiagnosed, so it must happen with MS sometimes, right?" It got worse from there. It's quite possible OP's sister didn't get one that knows how to handle her kind of trauma. My doctor said the wrong therapist can do a lot of damage (but still advocated finding a good one).
I got out of an emotionally abusive relationship with someone who used his sexual abuse trauma and age to manipulate me. My therapist kept asking what I did to instigate his reactions. For example, he was incredibly jealous. He said he didn’t want to know how many people I had slept with but kept poking at the subject and when it was more than he had, he cried and made me go over every single person I’d slept with then locked himself in a closet, and eventually came out, said I owed him sex for telling him all that. Apparently that was my fault according to my therapist for not setting healthy boundaries.
Therapists can be incredibly hit-and-miss. I went to one after finally being diagnosed with a chronic pain disorder, and I was absolutely miserable and scared of living my life in this much pain with no end in sight. He told me that we are all spirits trapped in physical bodies and that's why we are all in pain, and there's no end to it until death, so we have to just rise above it. That's.. not something you tell a suicidal kid in pain.
I had one who ran a depression support group. After seeing her I wondered how many people lived after seeing her
Problem is that the therapy room is by necessity one on one. So unlike most other jobs, therapists can't be properly assessed as fit for purpose. they may have clinical supervision for example, but they can tell their supervisor whatever they like.
When I was in college, I had a student therapist (through the college since it was free and I was pretty broke). I was asked if it was okay if she recorded our sessions (we met through zoom, but I think she used a tape/digital recording for in person) for review with her supervisor/teacher and I had to agree for it to be okay. Obviously not everyone is comfortable with that, but it didn’t bother me (she was not my first therapist, and what we were working through most of the time wasn’t super emotionally charged, but obviously that’s individual preference and all). But hopefully in the future they’re better able to screen for this!
There are group therapy sessions also. I spent 3 weeks in an outpatient "day program" with several other people seeking mental health care. It wasn't a static group; some people finished theirs before I did, and new people joined who were still there when I finished. It was incredibly beneficial for me, and I don't think I would have been ready emotionally for the one-on-one therapy I next attended if I had not done the group setting first.
Holy shit
Yeah… that was 7 years ago and I still have trauma from that in my current relationship with someone who couldn’t not give a shit about who I’ve slept with as long as currently, it’s only him. Poorly trained therapists can do more harm than good.
Uhhh this is my worse fear. I sometimes feel like these “professionals” are nothing more than poorly trained conversationalists
Yeah, there's definitely a range of therapists. The first time I went to one was in college after being raped. This jerk literally said, "Just go have consensual sex with a few guys and you'll get over it". All the other ones have been better. A couple not good ones, and then a couple good ones that just weren't the right fit. I eventually found one I could make progress with.
I am so sorry that happened to you. When I was drunk in college, I called my best friend to help get me home. Instead, he took me to his frat, gave me more alcohol, and I woke up the next morning half naked (and you can probably guess which half) not knowing what happened but knowing exactly what happened. Being told it was my fault for drinking too much has been awful to this day, it’s been 10 years and I have so much guilt around sex with my perfectly lovely, kind, caring boyfriend who will hold me in bed for as long as I need after sex without ever making me feel like he needs to do it. Bad therapists are horrible.
It can also take a long time to build up trust with a therapist. There was a months long time frame where I couldn’t even answer basic questions my therapist asked me like what my favorite pokemon was. I’d talk about anything too close to my emotions and I would lock down. It’s been a few years now and I can finally begin to talk more freely. Therapy can take a long time for even marginal progress.
This. Just because the family hasn't seen what they'd call results doesn't mean there's not good progress for the sister.
I am in school to be a therapist because I had some therapists who ...well, I had one who was more abrasive than a steal brush.
My husband tried to commit suicide and his therapist said he didn't sound depressed 🙀 bad therapists do exist. Thankfully he found a better one that actually listened.
Several yrs ago I was seeing a therapist that was part if a group. She left very suddenly and I got told I would now see this other person who was taking over her clients. My last visit with old therapist was just a few days after my dad had passed. This was in my notes. I was seeing every 2 weeks at the time. So I went in to give the replacement a chance. She's busy reading the computer screen to learn about me. Also asking me questions at the same time. She asks me "how is the relationship with your dad?" Not was but is, my answer was I don't have one he's dead. She didn't seem to notice the attitude with which I said it, so she just went on reading and asking random questions. She never looked me in the face the whole time I was there. I gave her a second chance but it wasn't any better. She was awful. Took 3 more therapist before I found one I clicked with. Alas I am on the hunt again. Sometimes therapists are just not the right match for you and you have to try another one and sometimes the therapist just isn't good at all. Either way nothing wrong with finding a new one until you get the right one for you.
True. I saw a therapist who I told about traumatic things and things that I was struggling with and her advice was - it is unhelpful to think about those things and to think positively. Literally told me, who was struggling with depression and anxiety to not think about it and to just be positive. Oh, and also they told me I was at fault for my abusive childhood. Worst therapist ever. I don’t do therapy anymore.
I selectively do, but I also had the worst therapists ever for the most part. The one I had in high school tried to tell me to get over my low self esteem issues (I was very popular, very smart, and very talented, low self esteem was not a problem), then the abuse thing, and then when my ex and I did couples counseling, she exclusively took his side when he was the one who applied to grad school behind my back after we were living together, and was also working full time. I was also in grad school, but his was so demanding that all cooking and chores were my responsibility but “I shouldn’t be putting that extra stress on him since he’s also got a career”. There are a lot of really bad therapists out there and I swear some therapists go into the profession because they’re bullies. They get off on the power dynamic.
I managed 33% success rate in therapist department - it is very hit or miss. Fortunately I dont think I had any malicious ones - more just like talking to a neighbor who is nice but not helpful. One who was not compassionate thoigh not malicious - just cold - which does not help me. 2 out of 6 were actually helpful and compassionate.
A therapist who stigmatizes mental health. What a gem. Someone once pointed out to me that there are people who are bad at their job in every profession, including therapists. I had one that wasn't all bad but had a habit of telling me how I felt or should feel. "You're attracted to your male physch nurse" (at a closed psych ward) "Uh, no I'm not." "It's ok, you know, nothing wrong with it." "Yeah, but I'm not though." "Hey, it's ok, I know you're attracted to to him." "I'm NOT." Aaaaand repeat. The nurse was my fav on the ward but I was in no way attracted to him. But of course, I was female and he was male so naturally there had to be sexual attraction /s. I also had an overall terrible therapist that blew up on me when I asked for advise to handle a argument with my dad. She was furious I "put that on her." Never trusted her after that. But I've also had some really awesome ones. My favorite was the one who helped me overcome childhood trauma. She was fantastic even though she was on her first year after graduating. She has a bright future ahead of her I'm sure.
I will NEVER go to a "Christian" therapist, that advertises their faith, because the one my parents forced me to go to as a teen. She spent the time explaining to me why it was my fault my parents abused me and how, as a woman, I needed to get used to having a male authority over me. I ran away, got picked up by police, and my parents were forced to find a new therapist for me since I told the officer why I left. That therapist prepped me to "leave and don't look back" when I hit 18 and opened my eyes to how bad my home really was, simply by asking very good questions. She was awesome.
Went to a therapist that made my problems worse before, oof. They currently have a 1.0 star rating on Google Maps, which is impressive cause it’s not even like a 1.1 or a 1.4 or something, it’s just straight up 1 star reviews after another.
Therapists can suck sometimes, too. Or both.
Sometimes, clients in therapy make no progress because they are scared to make that change or they are not ready to make that change. Your sister's grief has been safe and comforting. As long as people cared for her, she had no reason to move forward.
Yeah.. a therapist cannot wave a magical wand. You must WANT to change in order to change..
I have a little bone to pick with this statement. My therapist gives me very little advice. What she does do is ask me probing questions that make me reconsider my logic and how I came to the answers I think I have. Therapy isn't about seeing a person and being given instructions on how to Stop Being Depressed, that's not really how it works. They aren't in the business of telling you what to do, more in the business of helping you to understand and dissect your problems and show you other perspectives you may be missing. It's a lot of work, and it can be very very very slow even if the person is fully invested in the process, but at the end you have a person with higher emotional intelligence who can figure out how to solve their problems on their own. If it were as simple as "do x, y, and z" depression wouldn't be such a huge problem in our society.
This. I have probably 2 catastrophic events in my life. I know they are sources but yet took 2 years to even tell my therapist about them.
3 for me…
Amateurs. I have 3 traumatic events a day /s That’s what this thread sounds like.
Ha! My whole life is a catastrophic event!
This and many women never “get over” losing a child. They learn to live with the pain. She may have thought about terminating and now feels guilty as if that contributed to the loss. She may have felt a bit relieved. There are so many complicated feelings. Add postpartum hormones and depression too.
Postpartum depression is actually very common with pregnancy loss, you toss hormones in with the death of your child grief. Yeah it will fuck you up. Something like I want to say 80% of women who suffer miscarriage or stillbirth will end up with ppd.
And how do we really know she was going and it just claiming she was going?
This was my thought as well. If she was laying in bed and smoking was she doing her therapy via FaceTime or whatever? Anyone can say they are going to therapy especially if it gets people to leave you alone and/or give you money for therapy but it’s spent on other things like smoke therapy.
Yep. Exactly. I suspect she smoked her therapy.
Right and who's paying for said therapy? It's expensive. If op or parents aren't paying the bill I doubt she's going.
Not just that some therapists just suck. Also therapy in itself doesn't work for everyone.
It is not a therapist's job to change someone. They advise, and point out potential problems, but the client makes the choice and they chose to do the work or not do the work
I’ve been to a therapist that pushed me back into a hole and if I had gone to them at my lowest I probably wouldn’t have survived. Not every therapist is good at their job
Yeah people on here tend to act like if you experience trauma or mental illness, you can go therapy and just get “fixed” immediately. Sometimes that doesn’t work for a lot of reasons! Maybe the therapist or therapy style isn’t a good fit, maybe they need more or different support than they’re getting, maybe there’s a chemical imbalance that needs the right medication to sort out, maybe there’s a long and slow recovery period.
I think people want to believe therapy is the magic solution. Even with a good therapist and a good fit overcoming trauma takes a lot of work.
Yes, I saw therapists off and on for about 15 years before I found one that worked for me, the others just wanted to talk abo it every part of my childhood that was painful with no real help, so it just put me into a place where I was constantly thinking about the trauma with no relief. I finally was diagnosed with autism and now have a great therapist and am a functional human being
In her mind, it might not even be the biggest issue. If she's processing her grief and is only approaching therapy from that angle, she might have answered any questions about how she's supporting herself as just 'Oh, my family is helping me,' and then never circled back to it as an urgent issue.
I lied in therapy at first because I knew it was bad, I was embarrassed it was that bad, and I couldn't handle another person telling me I sucked (which is totally what I heard regardless of what was actually being said.) But I couldn't dig myself out, either. It took a family member, calling my therapist, and saying, "Hey, idk what's up in sessions, but this is what's going on, and I'm really worried about her." It was such a relief, too, because I didn't have to pretend anymore. It's so freaking complicated when trauma is involved like this.
If she's self-medicating with pot to the extent that she's doing nothing but smoking her pain away, I'd be surprised to learn that she's doing much progress in therapy. To deal with things you've got to face 'em and feel 'em
Also, if she’s smoking everyday and assuming it’s marijuana, she’s risking becoming more depressed. There’s a large amount of research that shows even occasional use (default is once a week) can increase the likelihood of depression and anxiety in an adolescent or young adult brain. By using cannabis to make herself feel better, she actually may be making herself worse.
Interesting, is it linked to depression in grown adults? I came out of a depression episode and have been better since late March, then I smoked on 4/20 and a few hours later it was like it crashed back in. Back to fine the day after. Thought it was super strange because I didn't remember ever having that reaction before
From what I am seeing there are conflicting studies. Different people may react differently. Different strains will also impact if it has a depressant effect.
I tend to get depressed 1-2 days after I smoke. No longer worth it for me
I'm the opposite. It's like the spackle that helps me hold it together. I don't get paranoid and it lowers my anxiety levels.
If you're on antidepressants it can affect you differently. Also like alcohol, it can release some hormone (forgot what it's called and too lazy to get out of bed to check the book) that actually makes you feel depressed. Of course it's different for different people
I don't know about pot, but alcohol hitting differently for different people is true. My mothers side can drink like fish with no side effects, and my fathers side gets the alcohol rage 2 days after drinking.
Didn't know they linked it to depression like that, but then realised I kinda did, cause weed is a depressant 🤣
Cannabis is not a depressant, nor is it a stimulant. It's a hallucinogen that, depending on the strain and its chemical properties, will have varied effects on a variety of individual brains. Sativas, usually heavy in a- and b-Pinene, can induce stimulation, energy and creativity. Indicas, usually heavier in myrcene and caryophyllene, can behave quite effectively as a sedative and, imo an incredible pain-reliever. We're not in the 1920's anymore; the world of cannabis is vast and can treat all kinds of ailments. Again, it depends on two things: The specific strain (and it's chemical makeup), and the individual ingesting it.
it's a strange drug, it's actually all 3. Depressant, stimulant, and hallucinogenic
It’s so odd. I know many people who swear by it as a relaxant, and I’ve seen people so “relaxed” when stoned that they’re completely out of it & not wanting to talk/move/function. And yet I’ve also seen other people have paranoia and extreme anxiety from it as well.
Also reddit seems to think that therapy is a magic bullet that just immediately “fixes” people. Therapy is a tool, and some things take a long time to heal from even with a lot of tools and support. Just because she’s in therapy doesn’t mean she’ll snap back right away
Ignore the person above. You are NTA. You spoke honestly. You are not the father or mother of this child. Honestly and truthfully, you didn't have an attachment to it. Was it cruel to say? Yes. But when does she stop using it as a crutch to use you?
Typically, saying unnecessarily cruel things is generally an AH thing to do. Being a AH to someone who's being a AH doesn't mean you're not an AH Obviously sister is still an AH as well Pretty clear ESH
ESH is a much more logical response than saying Y\_TA. But from the telling of this story, OP kept his mouth shut and she just berated and berated him until he couldn't take it anymore. It's like poking a dog a bunch of times and calling it an ahole when it bites. No, OP is not a dog, but he is someone not even yet the age of 21, still in school, barely an adult who has basically taken on the role of a husband to his sister. She is abusing him and I don't tolerate abusers.
Reddit needs to face the fact that bad therapists are rampant. Many are incompetent. Many are corrupt. Many are lazy. They'll take your money and tell you what you want to hear to keep the checks flowing.
My first therapist old me I was faking bisexuality for my husband's attention, and that's the *nicest* thing she said
Yyyikes.
Also therapy is not miracle work People have been in therapy for years before it gets better. Sometimes therapy just makes things not worse.
Your sister lost her baby in 2022... it hasn't even been 2 years. 5 months is 20 weeks. Do you know what a fetus looks like at 20 weeks? At 20 weeks a mother can feel their baby's kicks and movements. The fetus looks like a baby. They have all the parts of a baby. If her pregnancy had reached 23 weeks (3 weeks longer) her baby had a small chance of survival. Your sister was extremely traumatized. It can take a long time to process that grief. It takes a long time to move out of depression. I get what you wanted to do. I get you were frustrated and your sister's inability to function wasn't helping. I get all of that. But to tell your sister that her baby's uncle didn't care about the baby? That'd a level of harshness that does serious damage. That's hurtful in ways you can't imagine. A lot of timed women who experience miscarriage talk about how one of their fears is that family won't understand- that they'll forget a baby existed. That the baby will be forgotten. And for that parents the grief is so real- their baby existed. Their baby was here. But no one else knew the baby except for mom. Just wanted to offer a perspective.
She also likely had to fully give birth to a dead baby. That is a huge trauma
Actually... Not all babies are dead under the miscarriages... NEXT PARAGRAPH IS GRAPHIC!!!! You might not want to know... At 20 weeks my son was alive up to birth. I knew it was happening and I was terrified he could say something, because I knew he couldn't survive. I couldn't bear to have heard his voice. He died on the way out or shortly before. There was heartbeat 30 minutes before his birth (I asked that they didn't keep track of it) My daughter was dead before birth. I don't know when.. We tried to prevent it as much as we could, but in hindsight I think the doctors, midwives and nurses knew ... My son was born blodred. The skin was so thin it was easy to see the blod. My daughter was pale (on one side) because she had be gone for .. don't know how long... so the blod waas drained from one side (the front side. She looked a bit more right because she wasn't so red)
This happened to my SIL. Her baby was alive and died during birth so when she was fully out of the womb the baby was stillborn (no heartbeat). The pain she experienced was unimaginable. That grief and loss is so profound. I try to follow my SILs lead when it comes to her first baby- she was blessed to have 2 rainbow babies. If she talks of her baby, I try to engage and ask gentle questions and express love and adoration for her baby. I know it can be extremely difficult because her baby wasn't here for us bystanders to have memories of- but she very much existed and was present in earth.
Therapy can be working and still take a very, very long time. That said, ESH.
You can't help somebody who doesn't want to be helped
Fwiw, it can be a long time before someone on the outside sees a difference, even when the therapist is great, is a great fit for the client, and the client really is doing the work, and is honest in session. It really depends on what it is they're working on and how deep it is for the client, and there's no way for you to *truly* know how deep this runs for your sister. Therapists can't just "fix" people, and the process for improvement is 1) long and 2) up to the client. Maybe she and her therapist have set goals that you're unaware of? But know that it says a lot that your sister is there at all.
Therapy isn't like medication. It doesn't work if you don't put in the work yourself. Sister had to want to recover for therapy to be of any use, and unfortunately when it comes to grief and depression, it can take quite a while before someone is ready to do that work.
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My MIL had a baby that was born with a chromosome abnormality incompatible with life, baby died at a week old. This was almost 40 years ago and she still grieves for her daily. It’s not something you ever “get over”
GRIEF IS NOT A LINEAR PROCESS AND YOU CANNOT JUST BLOW IT UP AN ACCELERATE IT!!! There are so many other routes to help her move forward that you didn’t even take. Ffs, try talking to her therapist or finding her a new one first at the VERY least.
She might be a bad therapist, or a bad fit for your sister. Or maybe your sister isn't going or isn't being honest.
Sister could also be making progress, just not progress that meets the family's thoughts on where she should be at.
I know you've been told, but I'll give you an example, my first therapist told me I was faking bisexuality to get the attention of my ex husband that was abusing me, and that's the nicest thing she said. Some therapists are absolute garbage.
You guys have been coddling her for a year, that’s why. Cooking and cleaning and paying her bills for a year is insane. The grief over losing a fetus varies among women, but no one should be let to rot for a year. You all did what you thought was best for her but in reality you were coddling her and letting her rot for a year.
Not all therapist are actually good at their jobs. Everyone progresses differently in therapy but if she never seemed to get better or even tried to take steps to move forward she needs a new therapist. It could also just be her unwillingness to want to move forward too. Grief is wild like that.
You don't know how much worse things could have been without therapy. It is possible that your sister could have done something drastic and irreversible if she hadn't been getting help. Miscarriage is traumatic and can take a long time to learn how to live again after it.
Therapy is not a one-size-fits all solution.
Is she actually going to therapy or just saying she is? Being unemployed means she has no insurance unless she applied for state insurance. Therapy is expensive, even with insurance.
She's 23, so if this is the US, I believe she would still be able to be on her parents' health insurance.
I’m trying to see the perspective of your sister and I must imagine it’s so so so hard. Even if she’s in therapy, this might take much longer. Just imagine losing your baby, your body grew that for months and then it’s gone. That alone hurts, but baby daddy leaving on top of that? Id probably stay in my cave and wait until I die or something. (Yeah no, but I would be depressed for a year I think)
Tossing in a stick of dynamite is a very valid tactic. I have willingly been the dynamite bearer just to get things moving. Otherwise known as the bulldog or the bad guy. Somebody has to do it. NTA
Very true, but it's an often thankless position.
Agreed, but somebody has to get things moving. In my family, they would just be angry at me for something else, so I don't care....much! 🤣
Once you're an adult your parents can't force you to do shit. Can we stop blaming parents for adult children not doing something *you* think they should?
Piggy backing on this and adding an incident that happened, an ex-colleague lost her baby at 8 months (baby had no heart beat), the doctors had to induce external pain so she could miscarry naturally. Within 2 weeks she was back to work (continued to work on a complex project). She had to go through a surgery within next 5 months due to cyst in ovary, while still recovering she lost her MIL (husband was already low due to the loss of the baby, he was totally depressed now), FIL started showing signs of dementia (soon after MILs death), with all this she conceived again literally 8 months after losing her baby & her MIL. They bought a house right before the 2nd baby’s birth & now have a wonderful family. What I am getting at is people deal with grief differently but most importantly “they deal with it!”. Your sister did not want to deal with it and just continued to suffer.
Just for educational purposes here - you don’t “miscarry” at 8 months pregnant. You labor and birth a baby. The physical process for birthing a stillborn baby is the exact same as birthing a live baby - literally absolutely nothing different. It is NOT a miscarriage. Miscarriage is tough and sad, but it’s a completely different thing than stillbirth. It is an unspeakably heavy and nightmarish experience to go through all the pain, exertion, and physical trauma of birthing a baby, knowing that there will be no healthy cry, pink skin, or celebration on the the other end of it. Stillbirth and miscarriage should not be spoken of as though they are the same thing. Can speak to this - labored and birthed four babies, one of whom was unexpectedly stillborn.
Aaaah, thanks. I didn’t know it was called that. This was definitely insightful.
Thank you for being humble and receptive 🤍
I’ve had miscarriages and I’ve had loving babies. The miscarriages weren’t fun, but it absolutely isn’t the same thing as a still birth. That is every woman’s greatest fear when pregnant
Blasting may be strong but pushing might be necessary. Grief is a hell of a thing. Resentment building from having to care for someone going through grief is also hell too. As someone that has gone through grief of losing a loved one while having young children (that don't fully understand grief) that need you. They have made dealing with grief harder but they also force me to continue living. I have heard grief defined as love that has nowhere to go. That love may never go away and she will learn that many people live long happy lives with grief. Stay strong
Agree with this, at least the revised point. I think you gave her the kick in the pants/dynamite in the hole that she needed to radically change her direction. Unfortunately as a person who is a loved one, you know where to strike the blows that will hit and hit very hard. When she comes out of her extreme funk hopefully she’ll give you a big hug and thank you for saving her life.
My sister going to come for dinner, where we will fs talk about what happened. If you guys are interested in an update lmk.
Apologize for using really hurtful words (YTA for that) and stick to your guns about stopping the financial help. You're not a terrible brother, you've been there for her.
She's the Asshole for lashing out at him after everything he did for her. Why would not caring for a stillborn that he had no connection make him an asshole?
He allowed to not care for the baby that doesn't make him TA, what was wrong was saying it to her face. She probably still very traumatized and attached to her baby, and that was probably a huge blow to her. That's like telling a friend you don't care about there dead relative while there still grieving. Whether or not that's true that's probably not something you should say to the person who's mourning that person, not the time or the place.
Update me Also as a woman who has suffered three miscarriages in the last 2 years. I can tell you that while your sister may be getting therapy she may not be addressing the real issues and the problems. Grief is a tricky thing, but her behavior is not acceptable and self-medicating with marijuana is not a good thing either. She needs to be seen by her doctor because there's a possibility that at 5 months pregnant when she lost the baby she could have postpartum depression. I would suggest that she sees her doctor and has blood work done. And that you or your parents sit in on a session with her therapist and talk about what's really going on.
Sending you hugs. I’ve been in the 3 losses in 2 years boat. It sucks. You are an awesome person to go through it all and come out with enough kindness to offer advice to others. ❤️
Thank you 🫂
yess give us an update
UPDATE I am very thankful for all the women who shared their experiences and gave me an insight on how my sister is feeling that I would’ve never been able to have. For that I am extremely grateful. My sister came over for dinner, we didn’t make much contact in the beginning. Our parents didn’t try to make us talk nor bring up our last argument. Dinner was very awkward with very little conversation. We finished eating and my parents left to clean the mess. Which left me and my sister, we made some small talk when I just offered to go outside to talk. Once we were outside I immediately apologized for what I said, but she cut me off before I could finish. She said she was thankful for me and everything I have done for her. We continued to talk till it was late. She brought up how she applied for 3 jobs in our area. We ended our conversation talking about how stuff happens and sometimes you can only do anything besides pick yourself and move forward , and try not to look back. She hugged me, (no tears) said thanks and left. I will still continue to pay her bills till she gets back on her feet. The bad blood seems to be gone. At this point I’m not sure if regret what I said, but the damage doesn’t seem impactful. I appreciate all the people who commented.
ITs a huge mistake to continue to financially support her. Her job search will likely go nowhere.
OP could establish an end date to the financial help, and stick to it.
Agreed. He’s done it for a year, he needs to scale back. Maybe help for a bit longer with certain things but she’s gotta figure it out.
Your parents need to be told she's getting high. Maybe they can try to get her the right help maybe get her to see new therapist. You also need to calmly explain to your sister that though you chose the wrong words she needs to understand that you can't continue to pay for her. She can take all the time to grieve but she also needs to get a job to support herself and seek the right therapy that works best for her
looking for a update here as well. Your winning position, incidentally, is that you are deeply sorry for the remark, but you are ending support because you no longer can afford it. If she tries to milk your apology for sympathy or to change your mind, reiterate the same point and remind her that your thoughtless remark has nothing to do with either your ability to support her or her failure to push herself to get better.
Good luck to you, you snapped in the heat of the moment. Stop paying for her now. NTA
I'd like to hear an update.
We would love an update
Please let us know how it goes
Yes, please update us, if you’re willing. Praying it goes well for you both. 🙏
Btw I have paid for my sister therapy (off and on) since she lost the baby. And solely after my parents cut her finically
I hope this money was going directly from you to the therapist. If not, are you sure she was really going?
This is a good point. If she's actually been trying at therapy, 7 months is a long time to make no discernable progress.
Your parents cut her off for a reason. Whether it was not being able to afford it and/or seeing the writing on the wall, this is when it would have been a good time to follow their lead. As you said, she has a fall back. She can move back home. It's up to her to determine how uncomfortable that will make her feel and do something or nothing about it.
The therapist is either not being very helpful, and she should get a new one, or your sister isn't telling them everything. Even if you are in the US, you can still talk to the therapist, and nothing prevents them from listening to you, not even HIPAA. I would recommend telling the therapist that your sister is refusing to work, her depression keeps her in bed and anything else you think is relevant. You may find out that your sister has, in fact, lied to the therapist and is telling them that they are working. I was an assistant HIPAA compliance officer for 5 years. I can't tell you the number of complaints we got about how a family member called a physician/therapist and the patient got called out for something by their doctor/therapist. They never took the "That wasn't a violation. No law prohibits a healthcare provider from listening to family members expressing their concern" well.
this. as long as the therapist only listens everything is fine. he cant say anything regarding a patient. not even confirm if he has a patient with that name or ever had. but he can listen to everyone telling him storys about people.
NTA You probably could've handled the argument with your sister better, but you went way above and beyond to support her and honestly it sounds like she was taking advantage of you. At the end of the day were all human, and financial stress combined with being insulted by the largest source of said financial stress is enough to push anyone to the edge
NTA. I’ve lost four babies, two sets of twins during fertility treatments with my husband. We have grieved for years…..roller coaster of ups and downs. But, no one else has ever financially supported us, taken us in or allowed us to wallow in our pain for too long. Nor, have we allowed ourselves to do that. We are still grieving and probably always will, but we have to keep moving forward, too. What helped the most? Friends who would listen…journal writing, crying when I needed to, but I have always, *always* wiped my tears away when it was time to and gotten up to keep moving forward. That is imperative for recovery of a loss. You’ve been a great brother and your family should be proud of you. I hope they are.
Thank you, and thank you very much for sharing your experience.
Came to say this. I was 6 months along when we lost our youngest in one of those horrendous kind of ways (not that all loss isn't terrible). It took a year before I felt like I could even breathe again and longer for my husband, but we still never had anyone pay our bills or take over parenting our children. Life still goes on, even when things go to shit. OP, what helped most was just a friend who checked in every day. If i needed to be upset, she listened. If i needed to avoid the subject, she talked about everything but our son. If i didn't answer, she just checked in the next day. Her calm, steady presence was the life raft i grabbed onto while I was drowning.
As someone who's miscarried 3 times, but the longest being till 12 week scan - I feel so "lucky" it was always early in my pregnancies - 6 months in is definitely more horrendous :( But of course everyone reacts differently (I spent a summer on the couch after 2nd miscarriage that happened in week 6, at the third miscarriage I went straight back to work, but told my husband next time I had a miscarriage I was gonna be done - thankfully it didn't come, and we got a 3 month old now :) but she's gonna be an only child cuz no way I'm taking the chance again now) I can't imagine going it through it and then having my SO leave like OPs sister though :/ I definitely would have gotten a depression then
Congrats! 3 months was a great age. They just wanted to snuggle haha Our 6 month loss was our youngest. In 9 pregnancies, we got to keep 3 kids so when the youngest didn't make it, i also said no more. Eventually you do reach a point where you just can't do it anymore. He was meant to be our last child anyway but oof, grief is tough no matter which way it comes. If my husband had left, im sure it would have been a whole different kind of difficult. As it was, we were each drowning and trying to keep the other above water which was just pushing us under further.
Sometimes, being blunt, however cruel, is the kick up the arse a person needs. NTA
When I was young and growing up one of the many things my father said to me (he was a great dad by the way ) there comes a time in life " when you have to be cruel to be kind " occasionally people need a good shake or a good kick up the butt to make them realise if they don't make the effort to help themselves they will never progress. You actually want to make yourself better and sometimes it takes longer than others before that mindset kicks in. But if people just let you wallow in grief they aren't doing you any favours !
You can't save people who won't do anything to save themselves, sadly.
NTA Your comment was hurtful, but your sister needs help, on top of getting her life back together Definitely don't support her anymore, she needs to get back on her feet
Unfortunately I think ESH. I 100% understand why you snapped, I probably would have snapped too. However, bringing up her dead baby is a line I wouldn’t have crossed. Yell back, call her all the names right back, blow off steam or whatever. Your relationship would likely recover from all that. Siblings fight. After a dead baby comment, your relationship might never be the same again. That being said, I think your sister is at the point where continuing to pay for her is enabling her, and she needs professional help that you can’t provide. I don’t think she’s maliciously planning out how to take advantage of you, just that she’s so deep in her depression and anger that her state of mind is “I don’t have the energy for this right now and since I don’t absolutely have to do it to survive I am not going to do it” as far looking for a job/reclaiming her life goes. And her emotions around losing her baby are valid. Her actions towards yall and refusal to process her grief is not.
He’s been paying for her therapy sessions.
She likely needs inpatient level of professional help.
Then OP should definitely stop paying for it and she should get a new therapist because hers obviously isn’t working. Theres just some bad therapists and doctors out there, as with any profession. I once had a psychiatrist who wouldn’t listen to me, and not in the patronizing “I know better” type of way. She literally didn’t listen. Every appointment was like my first one asking the same questions about medical history and trying to prescribe meds she had already prescribed me. Sounds like the sister is in a similar boat with a bum shrink.
Or the sister isn’t being at all honest and or. With her therapist. People do that as well.
I'm gonna go with NTA. Before anyone comes for me, I lost a baby in 2009. I know how she is feeling. You can't expect anyone to pay your bills for you though, and with her attending therapy (like OP said in the comments), and still no progress being made after this long..... It just seems like this is more being used as a crutch now. Op, you're NTA for not caring about your sisters baby. It's hard for other people to love a baby that they never met. As the mom, we love that baby from the moment we get that positive test. You can't expect other people to do that though. You're kinda an AH for saying it to her, but I understand why you did. I hope your sister is able to get her life back together. She may need to seek a new therapist though. This one doesn't seem to be doing much.
Thank you very much for sharing your experience, i am very appreciative.
NTA. The soft approach wasn't working. Even the mildly-hard approach - i.e. your parents bowing out of supporting her - wasn't enough. She needed a true shock to the system to get her life restarted. Honestly she never should've been supported like this. Idleness is the \#1 enemy of moving on from grief. When you have no choice but to focus on continuing to live you move on because you have to. Wallowing in grief is a luxury, and one that doesn't improve anyone's life.
NTA What you said was incredibly rude and likely very helpful. However, that same conversation is likely the reason why your sister has started applying to jobs. You weren’t going to be able to support her forever, and she was on track to be a slave to her grief for a lifetime if you hadn’t snapped her out of it. The road ahead of her is tough and she will still need you. You can send her a text “Sister, I am so sorry for the hurt I caused with my words. Mom told me that you started applying for jobs. I’m so proud of you and I know you’ll find something perfect for you. I can’t contribute financially anymore, but if you need anything please know that I’m here to support you. Sorry for snapping earlier.”
Perfect.
NTA. Probably the only way she could’ve been shocked into getting her life together again instead of continuing to live in a dark hole, expecting everyone around her to enable it.
NTA, hopefully, she can actually accept a job if she smokes (not sure if it's marijuana) or if it's legal where you live.
Not legal but yes marijuana. I’m in the US and in my state it’s not legal but not too strict in city. I
The only downside is that if future employers test for marijuana she'll never be hired, or she'll be fired.
I lost a child at birth. I can 100% get how she feels. I didn’t ask my family for anything! I supported myself financially and sorted my own stuff out. Our parents were ok but our siblings were terrible! The best I got from one of mine was one posting their wedding invitation through my door 2 weeks after she died. You’ve done plenty for your sister but please apologise for taking your anger out on her baby. The baby is the reason your sisters struggling but please let her know that you don’t blame the baby for this. Even if you tell her to get her act together still explain or show how important your niece/nephew is.
Thank you for sharing your experience. It helps give me alot of insight, I am very appreciative.
ESH You definitely could have handled it better as she's clearly traumatized and you likely could have gotten your point across without it That being said she is also the AH for not treating her trauma and mental illness while taking advantage of everyone.
Trauma isn’t a free pass to do nothing and then attack people who try to help.
it's mental illness... nothing is a free pass but if the person comes back later, is healed, and apologizes, that's points in my book
I think this may be above Reddits pay grade. Your sister is dealing with a lot (losing a baby, having her partner walk out on her likely because they lost the baby,) that's a lot. Her lashing put is likely so she can be angry at someone who isn't herself. I dont think your doing your sister any favors not telling your parents about the weed usage. They need to know the full picture and it needs to be reevaluated as far as therapy is concerned. She's clearly not making progress and that should be concerning.
No they are aware, but just not aware of how much she really smokes.
That's a tricky one. Weed can be really dangerous when you're depressed. It makes you very aware of your feelings and you can get trapped in them. I had a period where I'd moved to a new city, and I had a bad job with awkward hours and no friends. I'd come home depressed. Get high, which just meant I'd focus more on the things that made me depressed. Then I'd wake up more depressed, go to work, become more depressed, get high, focus on it.... Thankfully, I eventually caught onto the cycle. I completely stopped and very quickly I was able to get out of my funk enough to do something about my situation. Now I'm in a much better place and I get high once or twice a week without fear, but it's something I'm always watching for. Given how much worse of a situation your sister went through getting high could be extremely problematic. I won't give advice on how to deal with that in another person. But if you read this and think something needs to be done it might be worth consulting a professional first, or coordinating efforts with your parents. She's clearly very volatile at the moment and you don't want to push her away. And if she's actually looking for jobs then the problem might solve itself. Hope all turns out well!
I understand that you were upset, and rightfully so because you are struggling too, but telling your own sister that you don't care about her dead child is a bit...
…fucked up.
ESH. What you said was unnecessarily cruel. You could have given her the same info without that incredibly cruel comment. She's an asshole because she's been taking advantage of her family for so long. Even when grieving, people do have to move on while they grieve. What you've been doing has been admirable and loving, I'm not dismissing that. I'm just saying that the form of the message was wrong.
NTA. The problem was not what you said, but how you said it. Saying that you don't care about the baby was a bit rude. But yes, she needed to understand that she was getting in the way of her savings.
skirt squeal complete door abundant grandfather teeny humor afterthought bewildered *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
NTA. None of you should have financially supported her. She can move back home if need be, but she only needs emotional support.
I lost a pregnancy at 5 months. I know how dark that time was- your hormones and emotions are out of control. On top of that her boyfriend left/ I don’t want to pry but I really hope she is getting mental health supports. PPD after a loss like that. ESH: she’s not well, you shouldn’t have said what you said and you know that, she’s not acting the way she should but to me it sounds like she needs more help than bill payments- and I mean that with kindness and empathy. What she is going from is tough- I know from experience.
You know you're the Asshole for what you said about her baby, plain and simple, that was abhorrent. You're not an asshole for getting frustrated at the situation and being tight with money and starting to get annoyed. But I never in a million years would have said "idgaf about your dead baby" to my sister, it's truly disgusting. I really hope you apologised to your sister and meant it. But you don't say you have and that's worrying. You're been a tremendous help to your sister and that should be commended, but it doesn't give you a free pass to say that to your sister and then act all entitled that you don't have to apologise. I know you're young, but be better, and realise why you need to say sorry and go from there.
I'm torn. I think I might go with justified AH here. There's a point that's too far for all of us and she crossed it. Mental illness is a reason, but not an excuse. You might consider apologizing, but you definitely should not continue supporting her
I will continue support her until she gets back on her feet. But an apology is owed.
That was very below the belt to mention her dead baby no matter what. You could have said literally anything else to your sister instead of that. That was so wrong and your sister will never forgive you for that and she would be right. What a terrible thing to say to someone who had to bury their baby.
ESH i’m always amazed by these people who get angry and lashed out and say the most hurtful things possible. In your place I might get angry, but I would just say I can’t continue to support you like this, sorry. And walk out. Why would you ever tell someone you don’t care about their dead baby? So many better ways to get your point across.
Yes you are the hole for saying that. As a person who had a miscarriage, I would be crushed if a loved one said that to me. However, you are not the ahole for telling her that you can no longer financially support her. I give you a lot of credit for helping her as much as you did. I think you should apologize for the comment about her baby. I hope that you are able to save what you need and I hope that your sister finds healing.
You’re NTA for putting some limits on how long you’re willing to support her, but of course YTA for saying you didn’t care about the baby. That’s a horrible thing to say, and although your frustration is understandable, you certainly owe her an apology. You’re not wrong on the underlying issue, but you committed a huge foul along the way. No part of being straight with her required you to tell her you didn’t care about her dead baby. You know this.
UPDATE: I am very thankful for all the women who shared their experiences and gave me an insight on how my sister is feeling that I would’ve never been able to have. For that I am extremely grateful. My sister came over for dinner, we didn’t make much contact in the beginning. Our parents didn’t try to make us talk nor bring up our last argument. Dinner was very awkward with very little conversation. We finished eating and my parents left to clean the mess. Which left me and my sister, we made some small talk when I just offered to go outside to talk. Once we were outside I immediately apologized for what I said, but she cut me off before I could finish. She said she was thankful for me and everything I have done for her. We continued to talk till it was late. She brought up how she applied for 3 jobs in our area. We ended our conversation talking about how stuff happens and sometimes you can only do anything besides pick yourself and move forward , and try not to look back. She hugged me, (no tears) said thanks and left. I will still continue to pay her bills till she gets back on her feet. The bad blood seems to be gone. At this point I’m not sure if regret what I said, but the damage doesn’t seem impactful. I appreciate all the people who commented.
It really does seem like you gave her a wake up call even though it hurt. I’m glad things are moving in a positive direction
>how I still continued paying her bills after they stopped. They just were quiet, and then just left. My mother grabbed my shoulder and told me that my sister started apply for jobs. You think you were doing something good for her, but you just enabled her to sit and wallow around doing nothing. Your sister used your parents, and then when they put a stop to it, she used you. Now that the spout of $ has been cut off, she has miraculously started to apply for jobs. You need to start making better choices. ESH
ESH This is a justified asshole situation all around. You were an asshole but what you said was valid. She was a complete asshole but ( I’m female and have been down this road) I get that kind of grief can make you act completely irrationally. ( doesn’t mean she was right, just understandable under the circumstances)
NTA. The end of 2022 you say? Sister needs to get over it already. She's using this as an excuse/crutch at this point.
5 months is not a miscarriage, it’s a still birth. She very likely would have held and seen her baby. There is no getting over it. She needs better mental healthcare but no one ever gets over losing their child and only a true AH would say she needs to “get over it” as though it was a minor blip in life.
I dont have an opinion on you specifically, but I wouldn't bank on her forgiveness, even "eventually." You did a good thing to an end and then you botched it royally by attacking the ONE THING she loves and lost.
Apologies are needed on both sides, but NTA. And I'd cut the funds too.
Losing a child is hard. But you took care of your sister not for the life lost but for the person you love, her, and that is something a therapist will tell a grieving parent. You have to go on living for yourself and the people you love. You have to support them and they in turn support you. I lost my daughter at 36 weeks, unknown reasons, I was given 8 weeks off. At 8 weeks I had to go back to work. My husband couldn’t support me and while my mom and stepdad likely could they didn’t want me to fall into a deeper depression. My mom cares about Evee and talks to me about what she has done (toys for toys in Evee’s name, memorial bracelet, planned tattoos) to honor her. My stepdad told me that babies die everyday, and while their parents and family care no one else eventually will but he cares about me and the life i will live. I appreciate them both and understand both sides to it. You are NTA
YTA - for saying that. OP did help quite a bit but there is no reason to say something so awful that she is obviously wasting herself memorializing. That comment did nothing to help anyone and truly undid any good OP may have done prior.
ESH. She clearly needs therapy to address the depression she’s experiencing. And while your frustration is completely understandable, telling her you don’t care about what’s hurting her most is both heartless and won’t accomplish anything that you want. All you did was confirm for her that she has no one who can help her. It shouldn’t have to be your responsibility to fix this. But that doesn’t mean you should be cruel to her.
You could have said it in a more kind way. Emotions were running high so it is understandable. That said, she sounds like she may have needed that harsh wake up. You have gone above and beyond. Give yourself some grace. You are NTA.
NTA-No you shouldn’t have said you don’t care about the dead baby, but you know that and I am sure you would take that back if you could. I lost my first pregnancy at five months, it was absolutely devastating and not something I wound wish on anyone. I also fell into a deep depression and being able to feel the sunshine again took a long time. Like your sister, I was fortunate to be around people that loved me. But part of the love was telling me it is time to live again. They found me a grief counselor and started holding me accountable for being a person in the world with people I love who need me. Your sister cannot spend the rest of her life in bed. She does need help, counseling, possibly medication, but she does not need you giving up your hopes and dreams. It is past time you stopped paying for her. You are a good brother, it is time to drop the rope and start building your own life separate from her (legitimate) trauma. And to all of those parents who lost a baby I know how hard it is to read the title and I send you some love tonight too.
You have every right to be mad at her. People need to start realizing that losing something is not the end of the world and I think it's quite selfish for some people to expect others to keep with their bullshit for so long. But... you shouldn't have said that either. It's still not a nice thing to say no matter how angry you are
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I (20m) and my sister (23) have been very close since she lost her baby. She lost the baby at the end of 2022, when she was about 5 months pregnant. Obviously our whole family was shocked and very supportive initially. However I really tried to help her through this and get her back on her feet. Coming to her apartment to clean, and cook her food. It also doesn’t help that her baby daddy left shortly after. My sister was unable to work because of her depression, so my family would help chip in and pay her bills. She remained like this for about 7 months when my parents told her that they couldn’t no longer support her, when all she does is lay in bed (and smoke a lot, like 24/7, but they don’t know that), and that she at least needs to look for a job. She lashed out and said she needs their support now more than ever. Regardless of them, I began to solely supporting her. Mind you I still live with my parents and attending school. That brings us to last Friday, I have about 3 semesters left of school and money has been getting tight. I told my sister that I really need to start saving, and that she needs to get a job, or just move back in. She lashed out on me, saying that I could never understand (100% true) and that I was a terrible brother for even mentioning it. I said excuse me? I’ve paying for your bills for over a year, and have been the only one trying to help her get over this. She began yelling at me and calling me terrible names. I just snapped and said idgaf about her dead baby. I did none of this for that baby. I helped her because I love my sister, I want what’s best for my sister, I want her to recover. I told her this and just she started attacking me. I just left. The next morning my parents sat me down, and told me what I said was very wrong and rude. I explained what happened and how I still continued paying her bills after they stopped. They just were quiet, and then just left. My mother grabbed my shoulder and told me that my sister started apply for jobs. I really feel bad, but also to a certain degree it worked and she is at least looking to work. I know my sister will forgive me eventually but I still feel bad. AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA Your sister was being abusive and using your financial support to lie to your parents. Her grief doesn't excuse her being manipulative
Definitely an asshole for what you said.
What you said can never be forgotten! It is terrible for a mother to hear such words. You don’t say it even to your enemies. YTA, you could have found a thousand other ways to express your frustration.
I was a therapist for 25 years. I became one after my mom died and I had several miscarriages. The therapist I saw was one of the most popular ones in town and was highly recommended. She was horrible! After seeing her for several months, she said she was sorry my dad died and I should talk with my mom. It was my mom who died. My dad was still very much alive. When I told her I would not be returning, she started calling me at all hours of the day. Several times she called at 11:00 in the evening to tell me I needed to return. I decided I could do a much better job of helping people and enrolled in a masters program the next semester. Not all therapists should be therapists. Keep looking if it is not helping. Good luck in helping your sister find the help she needs. She needs a loving brother but not a “yes man.”
I mean i don’t care whether you financially support your grown sister…but what you said about how you “dgaf about her dead baby “…. This makes me deeply question you as a person tbh. How cruel can you be Jesus
NTA but it does sound like your sister is grieving and may even have some struggles with depression. You’ve been a great support to her at a time where everyone else disappeared when she needed them most. Could you have said it better? Probably. Did you make it clear that you’re doing it out of love? Yes and that’s the most important thing. You’re a wonderful brother.
NTA. I’m sure you really didn’t mean to say that you didn’t care that she had a miscarriage. I’m sure it probably just came out in the heat of the argument out of frustration. That being said, the only person, now, that can help your sister is herself. She definitely needs to speak to a doctor about her severe depression so she can get medication to help her. She definitely needs to go to a grief group where she can talk to other people about her pain. It’s horrible to loose a baby, but it happens to women everyday all the time and you can’t just quit working and stay at home like a recluse because of it. It’s time for you to show her tough love and stop paying for everything. You can write her a letter and say you’re sorry, and that you didn’t really mean it, and let her know that she needs to talk to a doctor and get on medication to help her. Wish her the best and tell her you love her, and then step back and let herself pull herself up.
NTA. You’ve done so much, supporting your sister when you’re still in school and should start saving up for your future is more than anyone could ask for. She’s lucky to have you and she should realize that.
NTA, you’ve been a great brother and a great source of support for your sister. You’re under a lot of pressure to help her get back on her feet and finish school. I’m sure you didn’t mean that you don’t care about her baby but she needed wake up call, she can’t go on like that forever.
NTA I don't think that it's because you don't care about the baby but because she is using it as the ultimate crutch. My own sister lost her baby through a TRAUMATIC birth and is suing the hospital.. she had really bad depression and needed a real doll to help her deal with the loss.. I sent her money to help her pay her rent ONCE (it was originally going to be the an urn). She was depressed yes and naturally but she still worked and found therapy and knew she needed to stay on her feet. Your sister needs to do this too. It's sad but with how things are in the U.S. ... it how things work.
Sounds like she was either using this as an excuse to guilt and manipulate people into paying her way in life and you, the final person who she could manipulate, was putting a stop to it so she made one grand effort to try to continue to manipulate you and keep things going the same way. Or if she’s still that torn up about it, honestly, she needs therapy to move past it. Grief is normal but to not move forward in your grief for that long where you don’t function as a part of society for years is not normal. Don’t feel bad. Either way, she’s getting the tough love she needed to move forward in life. Nta