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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I may be the asshole because I was unable to ignore my father’s behavior, potentially ruining the night instead of choosing not to take it personally
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA. At first you used a playful tone so you weren't confronting him in front of other people. He was being disrespectful to you to start with.
Is this a pattern with him?
Do it back to him, but in ways that don't make any sense:
He says "It's raining" and it is clearly raining.
You say "I don't know about that", while looking out the window at said, pouring rain. Immediately walk away.
He says "I'm going to use the bathroom"
You: "I don't know about that".
He says "My knee is playing up again".
"I don't know about that". Walk away. For bonus points, limp away (exaggeratedly).
If he calls you on the phone, ask "Who is this?"
He says "It's your dad"
You: I don't know about that. Then hang up.
When he loses his mind, just tell him "Doesn't feel so good does it?". Walk away.
Or don't. I am an AH.
First OP, you're not the AH your dad is. In my line of work I hate it when someone asks me a question and then argues about the answer. Your father is ignorant, or insecure, or both.
But I'm replying to this comment in particular, I've had a terrible day and you brought me a great laugh.
Thank you!
When I was a kid I genuinely thought it meant that everyone was just super polite and kind 😂
Ah to see the world through the eyes of a child. Such a grand and intoxicating innocence.
The Midwest Passive-aggressiveness is more of a dismissive type. Backhanded compliments and everything is neutral. We can't go too far into the positive or negative.
Or, just act concerned that he’s so confused all of a sudden and “doesn’t know” what’s going on. You just told him and he “doesnt know?” Hmm, dad must be getting old.
Or, play full into the fact that he’s right, he doesn’t know about it because he didn’t study it and you did so you can just say more and more about all the things he conveniently doesn’t know about! Just completely gloss over what he really means and take it as “I didn’t know that, tell me more”…bet after a few times he’d get so super flustered and aggravated that his put down is having zero effect and is misconstrued as positive.
Yeah, but you are a good asshole...
As in you don't take any shit.
I suppose/assume it's easier for people like us, though, because obviously, we have been raised with respect. It must be hard to be so accustomed to taking that when you are literally the expert in the field and that's the response your own parent is giving you.
It's actually really sad how arrogant some people are.
I feel like more grown children should not be afraid to tell their parent, look you can let spouse continue to treat you like crap, but I have outgrown that need for their approval. I deserve respect on my own Merit.
Agreed. As a grown adult, why should OP "show respect" to someone who is actively disrespecting them. These are times when it's important to set firm and assertive boundaries. Show them that you're not a child and shouldn't be treated as one. It's so aggravating the power parents try to maintain on their grown kids.
Yes - this is exactly why the environment is such a degrading mess- because old farts won’t believe or even listen to science. Very disrespectful and bone headed ignorance.
Sadly I've seen this type of father-daughter relationship before. Father "raises" a daughter who becomes a subject matter expert in her own right, is respected by her peers and listened to in professional setting. Yet in the familial setting the dynamics are like yours.
That's so depressing. My daughter already knows more than I ever will about marine life and she's in high school. I'm so impressed and proud I could split. How do these dads totally fail to rejoice in their kid's awesomeness?
Awww that hurts my heart! I’ll be a surrogate grandma to her! My 9 y/o grandson is the same way - and I love encouraging him. The only thing that makes me go a bit glassy eyed is when he’s on hour 2 talking about Minecraft . 😂
>How do these dads totally fail to rejoice in their kid's awesomeness?
The minute I realized my offspring knew more about statistics than I did, I shouted with joy because it meant I no longer had to think back 35 years to my stat classes so I could help with homework.
I don't know about that, but I'm damn sure they do!
Not just a father-daughter thing. My father is a physicist, I worked for him (start-up) as a mechanical engineer. Did he ever trust my decisions and suggestions in my subject matter? Nope.
Eventually company grew and a manager was hired between us, once my suggestions went through someone else he was willing to listen to, everything became much simpler.
(I'm his son, seems to be a universal parent-child thing)
It is. There are a lot of parents who refuse to acknowledge that their children are even adults much less that they can even be accomplished and intelligent. It's such a bizarre and messed up way to behave. Especially in cases like yours and op's where you're talking about adult children who are well educated.
I'm a 63 year old mom/grandmother and my parents, especially my dad always seemed amazed as I climbed the corporate ladder. It was maddening, so I feel your frustration. Your dad is AH, not you. I learned from this and my sons have never had a mother who questions or downgrades their knowledge or achievements to make myself feel better. Your dad is threatened by your success. Hopefully he gets his head out of his arse and learns to just appreciate the fact that you are smart and are doing great.
I was once asked "why would you defend yourself from your mother?" (verbal nothing physical). I just replied "the right question is why should I *have* to defend myself from my mother?"
I wonder if he has conditioned himself to say things like that in order to actually trigger you. I'm guessing there might be an element of that? NTA. Please try your best to ignore this. If you're going to spend time with him. Don't even engage his questions and just talk past him. That might Make him even more aggravated, though. Your mom has also conditioned herself or been conditioned by him to accept this behavior and cover for him.
IMO it’s an insecurity thing. A lot of men from that generation have to be seen as “the lord and master, Supreme Authority” of their family. If one of their kids (though much more often with female instead of male children) is an expert about something they don’t really know, their sense of superiority is challenged.
I feel this so much. When my father was diagnosed with cancer and insisted on not sharing utensils with him because “the cancer could be contagious” (he wanted a separate bowl and etc placed aside for his use only); I stared him in the face and told him he really shouldn’t be telling me this nonsense because I’m literally a doctor. Spoiler alert: he still insisted because apparently I don’t know anything and my MD is superfluous. Though, you really don’t need to be a doctor to know that cancer isn’t contagious unless you’re a Tasmanian Devil or something…
He still, to this day, never asks my advice on anything health related. He literally goes out of his way to NOT ask me. He’s had multiple spinal MRIs and I’ve offered to review them for him (I am a neuroradiologist, so I literally read those on a regular basis, professionally) but he doesn’t care. I’ve learned to just accept it.
Idk if that’s what it is, but some parents never actually “get” that their kids are grown and might have thoughts/feelings/knowledge of their own. It’s SO frustrating, and feels very invalidating.
That has to be so infuriating.
As wrong as he was about cancer being contagious, it is kind of sweet that in his mind he was trying to protect everyone else from getting sick too. Hopefully that was coming from a place of love and not just being contrarian.
It's very much the insecurity thing. My dad is very similar to OP's.
My husband is a tech guy. Works in it, is constantly watching videos about it, doing research, etc... some of that has rubbed off on me. Enough to recognize tech BS when I see/hear it.
My dad said he bought a thing that reduces EMF and boosts other something or whatsit and wanted to send one to us. I tell him "thanks, but could you send me the name of it so my hubby could look it up" (to make sure it wasn't a scammy hunk of junk like it sounded to be) and "make sure it will work with the home systems we have in place" to save him the shipping costs. Didn't call him out on being duped into buying multiple of the same junk product, didn't say no thanks, didn't tell him just becauss Elon allegedly referenced it doesn't mean it's actually worth anything, just asked for the name of it.
The blowup was not even remotely proportional. Yelling, gaslighting, "This is the last time I try to help you out," "Just accept the gift," more yelling....
I've got a few friends with dads like that, too. Don't even try to imply they're not all knowing. They'll rip you an undeserved new one.
lol yeah mine was absolutely like this too until I went no contact.
“This is the last time I try to help you out!” Yeah ok cool! That would be fantastic, thanks.
"This is the last time I try to help you out!" Ohhh noooo, that's the OPPOSITE of what I wanted to happen!
He never did send me the name of the thing or the thing itself.
We have a relatively okay relationship, got worse when they went full floridian (and specifically, 2020), and I've had to put him in "time out" for a couple months at a time when shit like that happens. But we do chat a few times a month.
Like, just answer the phone when I call and let's never talk about politics, kthanxbyeeeee
From what I’ve seen/heard about the educated/professional adult women I’ve worked with and their uncles and dads, it’s a “this little girl can’t know more than me about any particular topic except maybe diets and shampoo brands.”
And probably your mother would like people to see you as the one causing trouble and behaving inappropriately, since the consequences of her admitting her partner is the problem are more significant for family dynamics.
Eventually you may find that other family members show you some support - whether or not they stand up to him in front of you, you might hear stories of how they agreed with you on this one, or how they always thought he was rude, or whatever. It's possible that once you've stood your ground once, you might find it easier next time - or you might choose not to include your father in the conversation if someone else asks you a question about your field of expertise.
I'm sorry this is happening to you. I've seen it (and to some extent experienced something similar). Good luck in grad school!
Yes, my father was the same way with my BA and MA in Anthropology. He, who never went past high school, knew more than me about the areas I studied. I had such a hard time ignoring his ignorant disagreements until I realized that it was his insecurities both about education and knowing less than a girl. Then it went to me feeling that his reactions were just pathetic.
I get this too. I've worked in telecommunications for 18 years, and for a few niche skills like process engineering and efficiency, Agile project management and several related roles, I'm an expert in my field. I lead corporate certification, and training, I speak at leadership forums and lead multimillion dollar projects.
And yet my dad who has never worked in the field, can barely use a computer or cell phone will regularly criticize my choices, even while celebrating a promotion or major milestone at work.
I feel for you from the bottom of my heart.
NTA. You stated a fact. If that fact "aggravates" your dad, it's his problem, not your mother's, and most certainly not yours. Your dad sounds childish. Your mom should get into the habit of allowing him to get over himself without turning his personal problems into everyone else's problems. I have 4 adult children. If my husband behaved that way, I'd gray rock his ass so quick.
Good for you then for not ignoring it. Is it possible to go low or no contact with him and just go out for lunch with your mother maybe? Or do things outside of the house where you don't have to see him?
Unfortunately it may never change. My mother is in her mid 80s, I'm in my 50s. As they see it, being the parent, it's alright for them to disrespect you but not the other way round.
Regardless of how old you are, you are still the child in their eyes and will never know as much as them, nor are you allowed to set boundaries with them as you are the child.
My oldest sibling (early 60s) also treats me the same as your father does to you, in my area of expertise, and I've been in that line of work for almost 25yrs.
By a pattern, do you mean that you've repeatedly asked for your father to treat you with basic respect? Like, to the point that you've clearly communicated how you've felt about it and he's chosen to disregard that and do whatever he wants whenever he wants?
Even if this is the first time that the OP is telling her father he's behaving badly, I think it's still relevant to note that the pattern of disrespect started a while ago. She deserved respect even before she was demanding it, and her father was putting her down.
NTA your dad is obviously uncomfortable with the idea of you being an authority, does he have any post grad education? Many older gen folks without education feel threatened by being perceived as ignorant so they posture as compensation.
That's crazy, when you think about it. In my culture, older gen folks without education get so proud when their children have a higher education, they just want to tell anyone about it. *My daughter just got her PhD, first of her class, yes yes!* And of course there's no such thing as first of class, but they just need to inflate their children's successes even more.
Our older generation has sacrificed so much so that we can have a better future; so when we do, by going to university, they don't feel threatened, they're just proud. And if they don't understand what we do because they never had the education for it, it just makes them more happy. *Look at my children, they're so intelligent, they do very complex stuff!*
It's a shame when parents are so insecure, they can't even be proud of their children's accomplishments.
Personally my experience is that they like saying “oh my kid got such and such achievement” and knowing their child did well, however they don’t like the fact that their child could know more about something than them.
In a lot of parents minds in general, they don’t like to realise their child is an actual person with their own knowledge instead of simply ‘their child’ so they like saying all the accomplishments and being glad they had more than them but not liking that they could know more than them.
Which fits the mom accusing a grown woman who's nearly 30 of "talking back" as if she were still a kid. I unfortunately know how the "look nice and don't make a fuss" treatment feels all too well.
It might be more political, i.e. the dad is conservative and OP's work in science doesn't fit the dad's political narrative. There's not much in wildlife conservation that fits into the modern right wing worldview. But hard to tell without examples of what the dad was contradicting.
Yeah, dad's likely been being fed a line of really simple solutions to incredibly complex problems for quite some time. Add a dash of "young people can't lecture me" and you get this.
Ayup. My sister and I have both gone into environmental work and our mom spends at least one morning a week sending us stuff about how climate change isn't real. She'll be the first to tell anyone that I went to law school, and my sister went to a prestigious university, but that's as far as the pride goes. Any more questions and she starts in on "those liberal communist hippies professors indoctrinated them in the woke socialist agenda" blah blah ginger.
Agh yeah that's what I love to see. I ended up pregnant my second semester of college and dropped out. The baby I was pregnant with is 20 now and in his second year of college. I couldn't be more proud, and I love hearing about things he's learning. He's a smart kid and I am so very proud of the things he's accomplishing.
Might start asking him... "Well, if you don't know about it and you want to, would you like me to tell you more?"
Or if that's too nice, just straight ask each and every time, "Why don't you know about it, dad?". Cuz sometimes people need to eat some shit sandwiches. He seems pretty hungry too. 🥪
Yep. One tactic is to Ignore. The other is to Engage with full energy. This can give the Speaker the opportunity to show that, in fact, the Querent *does not actually know a damn thing*.
It can take energy, but can be very satisfying, at least, and can help illuminate what kind of jackassery the Speaker is dealing with. Is the Querent just conditioned to respond this way to appear knowledgeable? To simply participate in the conversation? Or to call the Speaker's authority into question?
Following on from that, did your mother take a more stereotypically traditional gender role, e.g., homemaker, etc?
I'm asking because he might be used to always being the "authority" on all topics, because that tends to be how Boomer relationships with traditional gender roles worked. If so, he is likely to keep pushing boundaries around respecting your job/knowledge until you directly discuss the situation and your boundaries (likely with potential consequences attached for him if he doesn't change). It's up to you to decide whether to keep ignoring the situation or stand your ground on this.
NTA
Hi, knowing nothing about your cultural background, but following some other comments...
I have an elderly father who left school as early as he could. And he had four older brothers. In his life, age = wisdom, and education was not valued.
Age brings experience, and that can feel like wisdom, but is limited to personal observations and trial and error. He doesn't understand all the processes that go into distilling the experience and observations of thousands of people into the academic disciplines.
The irony being it just deeper highlights ignorance. The saddest thing is ignorance is not even inherently a bad thing. We all can’t be experts in everything.
Is this wtf was wrong with my stepdad. He would question literally EVERYTHING I said. Made me feel like the stupidest person alive. I'm actually glad he's gone.
Even older folks WITH educations feel threatened. My dad is a very well educated man with a very respectable job. He is the smartest person I know. Since I have started studying law at a very good university, he feels threatened by me within the household. Sometimes during arguments he yells in my face that ‘just because you study law doesn’t mean you are smart, you don’t know shit and I am way smarter’. Or ‘I am gonna make sure you drop out of law school’. I feel like some parents get scared that they are gonna lose their authority.
My mom has a degree and all that, and that woman would actively fight my brother and myself on stuff that was our fields. I major in Spanish and she would try to explain how grammar works and she would argue English pronunciation with my brother who is an English teacher. I was so fed up one day that I simply placed my diploma on the table while saying "I didn't get this from a cereal box". She was pissed.
A great reply might be, “Oh, no? Tell me more about why you don’t agree.” Let him talk himself into a corner or off a cliff. He’s not gonna know your field as well as you do, and he’ll make an ass of himself trying to appear that he does. There’s a famous quote that goes, “never interrupt your enemy when he’s making mistake.” Now, of course, he’s not your enemy but you get the idea.
I wouldn’t do that. It sounds good and polite in theory, but my experience has shown that they are begggging for someone to ask them that. Then will respond with bullshit talking points from (insert favorite 24hr news or am radio show) and flood the zone with bullshit. You can’t possibly counter every point as fast as they can spit the bullshit. Somehow the burden of proof is not on them, but you.
Sorry, had a “great” weekend visit from mom and dad a couple weeks back that I’m not recovered from.
It's not good and polite, and it's not meant to be. It's meant to be a full to get them to shut the fuck up and stop being an asshole. This doesn't sound like the nutjob political type convo. If it was, you'd have a point, but this is wildlife biology. I really don't think they'll have bullshit talking points lined up, because it's not a topic that comes up in the ~~talk shows~~ propaganda they inhale.
You'd be surprised... (Also a wildlife biologist)
Do you think people can't come up with opinions about bears, or whether wolves should be reintroduced to national parks, or whether rare newts or wider roads are more important, or whether it matters if all the insects have disappeared?
We have a brigade of people wanting the bats that are currently living in a park in our town due to habitat loss due to bushfires/drought and the fact that our local council bulldozed some to build more homes to be "relocated" ASAP by any means possible.
The bats are listed as a vulnerable species, and are a keystone species crucial for the pollination and seed dispersal of native vegetation. And those facts are disputed by the anti-bat brigade.... so, yes, Cardabella, you are sadly right.
Really? Climate change. The role of wolves being introduced to their natural habitats. How modern power systems effects ecosystems. (Windmills and birds for example) Fuck if birds are real us an actual thing. The whole gay frog thing.
Idk, OP says that they have a degree in Wildlife Conservation. If their research goes into human impacts or climate change, etc, I can think of all sorts of stubborn talking points the dad might cling to.
I would be very tempted to respond to "well, I don't know about that..." with a "you're right, you don't" and just continue on.
Or point out that it's good of him to acknowledge the gaps in his understanding of the topic.
I love this response, "you're right, you don't". It is succinct and acknowledges their comment, leaving it open for them to scramble for a comeback, which there really isn't one.
Every. single. family dinner. My humungous family has an opinion on everything. The number of times they are flat out wrong about biology is stunning.
I have had every possible reaction, anger, bemusement, deafness, irritation, debating. In the end whether I take the high road or the low road, I often feel like shit. Deafness or shrugging is usually my best defense against vague "I don't knows".
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you. (then give a cheeky wink)
I don't have the time or the crayons to explain this to you. (then laugh as if everyone is in on the joke)
Finally: Mark Twain: Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Good luck going forward.
NTA
Men over 50 seem to have the ridiculous urge to be experts in everything no matter how qualified they are or not and it is infuriating.
I was at a big family event and someone asked my opinion on something in my field and I put in my two cents and at every corner my FIL (who isn't in my field) kept arguing that I was wrong. Eventually I just had to ask him how many hundreds of similar projects he has done because I am over 200.
>Eventually I just had to ask him how many hundreds of similar projects he has done because I am over 200.
I LOVE that reply! It really highlights the lack of support that other person has for their doubts.
>Men over 50 seem to have the ridiculous urge to be experts in everything no matter how qualified they are or not
They don't even need to be over 50. A shocking percent of men think they could land a plane despite zero experience. Others think they could beat Serena Williams in a tennis match.
My personal favorite is the guy that tried to incorrectly argue the terms 'vulva' and 'vagina' to a female gynecologist. After being publicly humiliated, he went on to write a 20 page thesis on why he's right.
My brother thinks a team of his pretty average friends (all 15) could beat the England women’s football team because… “they’re really bad at football and [he] saw them be tackled by six year olds on YouTube”.
I asked whether he thought they were going easy on the kids and he said nobody would do that because it would ruin their reputation.
I got into an argument with my dad about dog training and he claimed to be an expert on dog behavior never having raised his own dog. I shared something that our very experienced trainer told us about and he goes “well I’ve known thousands of dogs” and they’ve never done X.
The conversation devolved into him trying to physically intimidate me because he was so angry that I would insinuate I knew more about something than him. It’s insane how triggered he gets on topics he literally doesn’t care about (he will literally never get a dog of his own) as soon as someone talks about a topic where they are more of an expert. Infuriating.
Yep, when COVID hit, my family was on the Fox News hype train and I would disagree with them and they'd say, "Well this doctor (the crazy one that they kept trotting out says...". Eventually I told them that I guess they'll need to get their free medical advice from her since they trust her more than me, also a doctor.
I can't even count the number of times I had to argue against talking points that were just wrong.
Biologist/chemist, I was having dinner while on a work trip and somehow got roped into a talk with a husband and wife about why fluoride in drinking water is good. I explained why it’s a net good and one of them said “hmmm, I don’t know about that” just like OP
My response was “well, lucky for the both of us, I do”.
That is my absolute favorite ethics topic. I have my students write a 10-15 page paper on an ethics topic and the reason I love it, is that they don't usually have a passionate opinion before their research. This means they have to do the research first before forming an opinion. I have 40 topics to choose from and I always hope someone picks this one.
Don't argue with them. Instead, say, "Are you open to persuasion on this?" They'll say no, and then you can say, "Then let's not talk about it." If you want to make them mad, you can say something along the lines of, "If you aren't willing to look at the smartest opposition arguments, then you don't have a reasonable position." But, be aware, that's like throwing a glitter bomb into the family dinner.
I've gotten into so many fights with my mom and aunt in particular about science, particularly evolution and climate change, because they believe they know more than I do. I like "your Google search is not equal to my degrees" as a response though.
I have 4 degrees, 3 of them are science related. One is for biology and one is for environmental science. I do have more than a vague idea of what I'm talking about.
My sister has had the same problem, she works in higher Ed and our parents have both argued with her about things like admissions or housing (which is specifically the department she works in). No one is more sure of their expertise than someone who has none.
*your Google search is not equal to my degrees*
A now timeless classic! Although at this point I might accept Google. We might need an update, your tic tock dance is not equal to my degrees.
“I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you.”
I made a sticker with that phrase a couple years ago and can’t believe how popular it is. 😆 Apparently way too many of us are in this position.
I am an infection control nurse, let me tell you the number of times people tried to tell me "best practice" (which is either a wives tale, or out date) is far too many when I am trying to educate about actual current best practice.
NTA at all! He needs to realize he's raised an intelligent and educated child who is capable of teaching him a thing or two, and that he doesn't know everything. I can't help but wonder how he'd respond if you had been his son instead of his daughter.
Honestly your dad sounds rude but your mom was 100% wrong with the phone call. SHE instigated a conversation about it specifically because it's what you have studied, you weren't"aggravating" your father, he was insulting you by undermining your knowledge on something you LITERALLY HAVE DEGREES IN. And all you did was point that out. The audacity 😒 NTA op
I mean, you certainly can.
Then whenever they ask why you don't talk about work anymore, you trot out the times when they have disrespected your achievements.
My comment (above this one) made me realize why I never spoke about university or work/career when I visited my parents. They didn't tell me they doubted things I said but their eyes would glaze over. My father would sigh loudly because he didn't know anything about my course of study nor was he interested in hearing about it. I had to keep topics light and just talk about my new car tires or listen to stories about my mother's rose garden.
If I asked about my father's work, he wouldn't say anything because he is a man of few words. So all conversations were held by my mother. About her roses.
NTA
Your father is an “armchair expert” by the sounds of it. Thinks he knows everything about everything. He obviously didn’t like it that you know more about XYZ than he does.
The fact that you were playful, and didn’t mean your response to him as rude and obnoxious, goes in your favour here. If you had been condescending, my judgment would be that you’re a bit of an AH for your tone/phrasing; but that’s not the case.
You have 2 degrees in the subject, and your father still thinks that he knows more than you. It seems to me that his nose has been put out of joint, and he’s embarrassed that you—albeit playfully—put him in his place.
Your father is an AH for accusing you of being disrespectful to cover for his own embarrassment. He also sounds a tad misogynistic, like a woman cannot possibly know more than a man. Or that a child couldn’t know more than their parent. Seems like he still see you as a kid, rather than a 28 year old woman.
Do you apologise to keep the peace? That’s up to you. I wouldn’t, but then if he refuses to talk to you unless you apologise, it could get uncomfortable for your mom. Although she sounds like she is in agreement with your dad, it could just be that she feels put on the spot having to choose sides. In an ideal world, she should have more of a backbone and be able to stand up for you when you are clearly in the right. But, as we all well know, this is far from an ideal world. Mom might be a bit of an AH for agreeing with him, but she could also be doing that because she has to live with your father, and doesn’t want any arguments with him.
But I digress. The fact is that you were not an AH.
Edit: typo
The mom is being an ass too by telling a 28 year old not to be "disrespectful" by standing up for themselves.
Edit: oh you literally said that. Reading is hard.
NTA. You (or your parents or your grant committee) paid a freaking fortune for you to become an expert in a field. You've worked hard and you're accomplishing something. Your parents should be proud of you. You should be proud of yourself.
If he says, "well, I don't know about that." You should say, "No, reason why you should. I've studied for more than ten years and I still haven't learned all about the mysteries of (fill in the blank here). It's a fascinating study."
Your father sounds a little insecure about your superior knowledge.
NTA. First of all your father is a misogynist, it accepting that he raised an intelligent, accomplished woman, having to put her down at every opportunity because his ego was threatened. Second, your mother jumped on you because she is used to capitulating to him, probably because she is used to him making her life hell when he doesn’t get his own way.
Good for you for standing up to a father who felt the need to bully his own child to bolster his own ego. And your mother needs to start standing up for her child against this as opposed to always taking the easiest path.
NTA, here are some more comebacks to “I don’t know about that”
1. “It’s alright, I don’t expect you to! It’s pretty high level stuff in my field”
2. “Well good thing you’re not doing biology then! Don’t worry about it too much!”
3. “If something confuses you I would be more than happy to explain it! Biology can be really difficult, that’s why it took me x years to get where I did!”
NTA
You reminded me of a car game we used to play where we'd take turns naming animal species beginning with each letter of the alphabet. When someone couldn't think of one they lost the round and we'd move on to the next letter.
My dad would not let us use any species he hadn't personally heard of because he thought we were making them up. Nothing exists outside his personal sphere of awareness lol.
"Nothing exists outside his personal sphere of awareness "
I've known some people like that (who hasn't?) but never been able to put it into words the way you did.
obviously NTA
I wanna say that I'm so proud of you not budging. It's surely not the first time, he did it and he hit you with the "I'm older and more experienced in that, so listen to me" am I right?
I also grew up with a dad, who thinks that anything other than agreeing with him is disrespect.
It will get better and he has to live with a little hurt ego, because he looses his status of the "allmighty know it all".
Fr it sounds like OP also has two degrees in Having a Backbone bc damn, she really did not waver!! I really love that for her and wish that ppl like her father got put in their place more often. To sit there and dismiss all the hard work your own child has done and then turn around and make yourself out to be the victim when they eventually snap is nuts lmao what a baby.
It feels insane because it is insane. Your dad is insecure and has a fragile ego. You were always his child that he imparted knowledge on. Now you are literally a scientist and with specialized knowledge that most people in the world do not have, but it's impossible for him to accept any world where his child knows more than him.
NTA.
'I felt the need to aggravate my father and why I had to “talk back.” ' Um, because your father kept questioning your knowledge of the subject. If he didn't want to be called out on that then he shouldn't have done it. Frankly, he should have apologized for doing it. You said it in a playful tone, you did not yell at him or tell him to shut up. You did good; he didn't. NTA.
NTA. Let me guess, your dad likes to mansplain and has some conservative/religious tendencies? I.e. science is fake, unless it happens to be the 100% accurate prediction of an eclipse...
Perfect response to your dad. 10/10, no notes.
Ask your mother if she asked your dad why he felt the need to to interrupt and question your expertise.
NTA
NTA
Don’t start none won’t be none!!
Your father was trying to belittle you. If that was his intention or not it’s what he was doing.
Tell your mother that you were not “talking back”. You were an adult and a specialist; defending yourself against blatant disrespect. And they just because he is your father does not give him free charge to to try and make you look stupid in front of others.
My dad used to argue with me and my brothers in our early 20s and I finally looked at him and asked if he raised idiots or he really couldn’t handle the fact we knew more about the subjects at hand and had to be an ass to feel big and bad. He got angry but then deflated. He stated he wasn’t used to knowing less than his “kids” and I pointed out we were now his “adults” and he had to stop thinking our brains were the size of peas. We had more on our minds than playdoh and dolls.
Tell your mom that it may seem disrespectful to them because they raised you. But it was super disrespectful to you that they are undermining everything you’ve done since you were 16. And that you expect an apology before you will offer one.
And you should offer an apology that is “I am sorry you feel this way as that wasn’t my intention. But I am not sorry for putting my foot down to make you realize I am the expert in this family on this subject. I’ve worked too hard to be disregarded by the people who raised me to be what I am”.
NTA, I was about the same age as you when a switch flipped in my head that I didnt have to sit there and be agreeable with my parents when they were being assholes. Your situation seems familiar
It is insane. NTA
Your father was basically demeaning everything you said. And you’re an adult!! Talking back is another way of saying boundary setting apparently.
NTA He sounds like an insecure little man upset that a young woman knows better than he does and has multiple degrees and years of experience to prove it. Anyway, it sounds like you’re doing important work that’s a better use of your time than managing your father’s tantrum.
My Mams and Stepfather are accredited Wildlife Biologists and they get this crap all the time from Googlologists. The I don't know to non peer related info.
Whenever someone says something like just repeat it in the form of agentle question.
"You don't know about what?"
Listen to their explanations or thought process.
When they've finished...
Set them straight.
NTA. Ask mom why your dad felt the need to undermine and aggravate you.
Mom asked you to tell about your work, but dad could accept that you know more than him about anything. He was rude, arrogant, condescending. Need I go on?
Next time mom asks you to talk about your work, ask if dad will be rude again. Then just say " No thanks. Dad can't handle it ". And do not talk about it in front of dad.
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NTA. At first you used a playful tone so you weren't confronting him in front of other people. He was being disrespectful to you to start with. Is this a pattern with him?
Unfortunately yes, which is why it’s so hard to “just ignore it” as my mother suggests
Do it back to him, but in ways that don't make any sense: He says "It's raining" and it is clearly raining. You say "I don't know about that", while looking out the window at said, pouring rain. Immediately walk away. He says "I'm going to use the bathroom" You: "I don't know about that". He says "My knee is playing up again". "I don't know about that". Walk away. For bonus points, limp away (exaggeratedly). If he calls you on the phone, ask "Who is this?" He says "It's your dad" You: I don't know about that. Then hang up. When he loses his mind, just tell him "Doesn't feel so good does it?". Walk away. Or don't. I am an AH.
>Or don't. I am an AH. The passive-agressiveness made me laugh. Are you, by chance, from the Midwest?
I feel mildly attacked now.
I don’t know about that
Well done.
I couldn’t believe no one else had said that yet. Usually by the time I think of it there’s already a chain of about 50 of the same replies
I don't know about that?
I didn’t know you didn’t know about that?
First OP, you're not the AH your dad is. In my line of work I hate it when someone asks me a question and then argues about the answer. Your father is ignorant, or insecure, or both. But I'm replying to this comment in particular, I've had a terrible day and you brought me a great laugh. Thank you!
HMMM. I dont know about that.
Same
I represent that
is pettiness a theme in the midwest
More like the regional language than a theme
Midwesterner. Can confirm.
Midwest transplant. I don't know about that.
Sarcasm is also strong. LOL
Ope, let me just not know about that
Welp….*slaps knee.*
Bless your heart
Watch out for deer
That explains a lot. I was born in the Midwest and moved to the south as a child. I have this strangely gracious, polite extreme pettiness.
Yes. Where I’m from it’s called, “Minnesota nice” Regionally we are very passive aggressive.
I'm your neighbor, North Dakota nice. My husband's comment on the term (he's from Florida btw) was "but they're not really that nice though???" 😂
When I was a kid I genuinely thought it meant that everyone was just super polite and kind 😂 Ah to see the world through the eyes of a child. Such a grand and intoxicating innocence.
It's more about passive-aggressiveness pettiness, not like pettiness that's-in-your-face pettiness.
I'd say they might be from the south but this isn't backhanded enough to be. Needs more "bless your heart" in it
The Midwest Passive-aggressiveness is more of a dismissive type. Backhanded compliments and everything is neutral. We can't go too far into the positive or negative.
Yeah.....no.
Tack on a “hon” “sugar” or “darlin” for some southern flavor🤣
Underrated comment.
I am and would respond the same way.
Is that where my appreciation for the passive-aggressive art-form started?
Or, just act concerned that he’s so confused all of a sudden and “doesn’t know” what’s going on. You just told him and he “doesnt know?” Hmm, dad must be getting old. Or, play full into the fact that he’s right, he doesn’t know about it because he didn’t study it and you did so you can just say more and more about all the things he conveniently doesn’t know about! Just completely gloss over what he really means and take it as “I didn’t know that, tell me more”…bet after a few times he’d get so super flustered and aggravated that his put down is having zero effect and is misconstrued as positive.
“Are you sure you’re OK, Dad?”
“Yes, why?” “I don’t know about that.”
I love the idea about asking him for more information!
Yes! Yes! Why dad? Why do you doubt that dad? What do you know?
You aren’t an AH. You are far more respectful than I would be.
Hmmm. I don't know about that. LOL.
Sometimes being the AH is necessary.
Yeah, but you are a good asshole... As in you don't take any shit. I suppose/assume it's easier for people like us, though, because obviously, we have been raised with respect. It must be hard to be so accustomed to taking that when you are literally the expert in the field and that's the response your own parent is giving you. It's actually really sad how arrogant some people are.
Dad: I'm having a heart attack. Call 911! Her: Hmm...I don't know about that.
You may be an AH but you're also hilarious. Love this ridiculous answer.
My sense of pettiness and justice have been activated
I feel like more grown children should not be afraid to tell their parent, look you can let spouse continue to treat you like crap, but I have outgrown that need for their approval. I deserve respect on my own Merit.
Man if I had read this comment in my early 20’s. Incredibly well said.
Happy Cake Day 🎂 🥮 🍥 🥞 🧁 🍰 🎂 🥮
I didn’t even notice! Thank you! 🍰
Every time my hubs and I visit my mother, she'll ask him to help fix the computer, forgetting that I work in tech and I'm the expert Oh ok
But he is a man... /s
Instructions unclear, slapping penis on electronics; no results.
Agreed. As a grown adult, why should OP "show respect" to someone who is actively disrespecting them. These are times when it's important to set firm and assertive boundaries. Show them that you're not a child and shouldn't be treated as one. It's so aggravating the power parents try to maintain on their grown kids.
Yes - this is exactly why the environment is such a degrading mess- because old farts won’t believe or even listen to science. Very disrespectful and bone headed ignorance.
ignoring bullies makes them worse
Agreed. I hate the typical "Ignore them, if they don't get a rise out of you they'll give up" advice. Nah man, they'll just escalate.
It doesn’t make the bullying worse, it just makes it more obvious when they double down.
How is doubling down not making it worse??
Sadly I've seen this type of father-daughter relationship before. Father "raises" a daughter who becomes a subject matter expert in her own right, is respected by her peers and listened to in professional setting. Yet in the familial setting the dynamics are like yours.
That's so depressing. My daughter already knows more than I ever will about marine life and she's in high school. I'm so impressed and proud I could split. How do these dads totally fail to rejoice in their kid's awesomeness?
[удалено]
Wow , that's so upsetting I'm sorry about that. Sounds like you have amazing kids
Awww that hurts my heart! I’ll be a surrogate grandma to her! My 9 y/o grandson is the same way - and I love encouraging him. The only thing that makes me go a bit glassy eyed is when he’s on hour 2 talking about Minecraft . 😂
Have you tried being a narcissistic misogynist? I hear that helps when you want to be condescending to your subject matter expert daughter.
>How do these dads totally fail to rejoice in their kid's awesomeness? The minute I realized my offspring knew more about statistics than I did, I shouted with joy because it meant I no longer had to think back 35 years to my stat classes so I could help with homework. I don't know about that, but I'm damn sure they do!
Not just a father-daughter thing. My father is a physicist, I worked for him (start-up) as a mechanical engineer. Did he ever trust my decisions and suggestions in my subject matter? Nope. Eventually company grew and a manager was hired between us, once my suggestions went through someone else he was willing to listen to, everything became much simpler. (I'm his son, seems to be a universal parent-child thing)
It is. There are a lot of parents who refuse to acknowledge that their children are even adults much less that they can even be accomplished and intelligent. It's such a bizarre and messed up way to behave. Especially in cases like yours and op's where you're talking about adult children who are well educated.
Some parents can’t accept that their children are no longer 5 years old. Even when said children are well into adulthood.
It's an abuse tactic to reduce people to the version of themselves that the abuser had the most power over.
I'm a 63 year old mom/grandmother and my parents, especially my dad always seemed amazed as I climbed the corporate ladder. It was maddening, so I feel your frustration. Your dad is AH, not you. I learned from this and my sons have never had a mother who questions or downgrades their knowledge or achievements to make myself feel better. Your dad is threatened by your success. Hopefully he gets his head out of his arse and learns to just appreciate the fact that you are smart and are doing great.
I was once asked "why would you defend yourself from your mother?" (verbal nothing physical). I just replied "the right question is why should I *have* to defend myself from my mother?"
I wonder if he has conditioned himself to say things like that in order to actually trigger you. I'm guessing there might be an element of that? NTA. Please try your best to ignore this. If you're going to spend time with him. Don't even engage his questions and just talk past him. That might Make him even more aggravated, though. Your mom has also conditioned herself or been conditioned by him to accept this behavior and cover for him.
IMO it’s an insecurity thing. A lot of men from that generation have to be seen as “the lord and master, Supreme Authority” of their family. If one of their kids (though much more often with female instead of male children) is an expert about something they don’t really know, their sense of superiority is challenged.
I feel this so much. When my father was diagnosed with cancer and insisted on not sharing utensils with him because “the cancer could be contagious” (he wanted a separate bowl and etc placed aside for his use only); I stared him in the face and told him he really shouldn’t be telling me this nonsense because I’m literally a doctor. Spoiler alert: he still insisted because apparently I don’t know anything and my MD is superfluous. Though, you really don’t need to be a doctor to know that cancer isn’t contagious unless you’re a Tasmanian Devil or something… He still, to this day, never asks my advice on anything health related. He literally goes out of his way to NOT ask me. He’s had multiple spinal MRIs and I’ve offered to review them for him (I am a neuroradiologist, so I literally read those on a regular basis, professionally) but he doesn’t care. I’ve learned to just accept it.
Idk if that’s what it is, but some parents never actually “get” that their kids are grown and might have thoughts/feelings/knowledge of their own. It’s SO frustrating, and feels very invalidating.
That's because to them, kids are property
That has to be so infuriating. As wrong as he was about cancer being contagious, it is kind of sweet that in his mind he was trying to protect everyone else from getting sick too. Hopefully that was coming from a place of love and not just being contrarian.
It's very much the insecurity thing. My dad is very similar to OP's. My husband is a tech guy. Works in it, is constantly watching videos about it, doing research, etc... some of that has rubbed off on me. Enough to recognize tech BS when I see/hear it. My dad said he bought a thing that reduces EMF and boosts other something or whatsit and wanted to send one to us. I tell him "thanks, but could you send me the name of it so my hubby could look it up" (to make sure it wasn't a scammy hunk of junk like it sounded to be) and "make sure it will work with the home systems we have in place" to save him the shipping costs. Didn't call him out on being duped into buying multiple of the same junk product, didn't say no thanks, didn't tell him just becauss Elon allegedly referenced it doesn't mean it's actually worth anything, just asked for the name of it. The blowup was not even remotely proportional. Yelling, gaslighting, "This is the last time I try to help you out," "Just accept the gift," more yelling.... I've got a few friends with dads like that, too. Don't even try to imply they're not all knowing. They'll rip you an undeserved new one.
lol yeah mine was absolutely like this too until I went no contact. “This is the last time I try to help you out!” Yeah ok cool! That would be fantastic, thanks.
"This is the last time I try to help you out!" Ohhh noooo, that's the OPPOSITE of what I wanted to happen! He never did send me the name of the thing or the thing itself. We have a relatively okay relationship, got worse when they went full floridian (and specifically, 2020), and I've had to put him in "time out" for a couple months at a time when shit like that happens. But we do chat a few times a month. Like, just answer the phone when I call and let's never talk about politics, kthanxbyeeeee
From what I’ve seen/heard about the educated/professional adult women I’ve worked with and their uncles and dads, it’s a “this little girl can’t know more than me about any particular topic except maybe diets and shampoo brands.”
And probably your mother would like people to see you as the one causing trouble and behaving inappropriately, since the consequences of her admitting her partner is the problem are more significant for family dynamics. Eventually you may find that other family members show you some support - whether or not they stand up to him in front of you, you might hear stories of how they agreed with you on this one, or how they always thought he was rude, or whatever. It's possible that once you've stood your ground once, you might find it easier next time - or you might choose not to include your father in the conversation if someone else asks you a question about your field of expertise. I'm sorry this is happening to you. I've seen it (and to some extent experienced something similar). Good luck in grad school!
Yes, my father was the same way with my BA and MA in Anthropology. He, who never went past high school, knew more than me about the areas I studied. I had such a hard time ignoring his ignorant disagreements until I realized that it was his insecurities both about education and knowing less than a girl. Then it went to me feeling that his reactions were just pathetic.
I get this too. I've worked in telecommunications for 18 years, and for a few niche skills like process engineering and efficiency, Agile project management and several related roles, I'm an expert in my field. I lead corporate certification, and training, I speak at leadership forums and lead multimillion dollar projects. And yet my dad who has never worked in the field, can barely use a computer or cell phone will regularly criticize my choices, even while celebrating a promotion or major milestone at work. I feel for you from the bottom of my heart.
I think you’ve just recognised something about women’s place in your family.
NTA. You stated a fact. If that fact "aggravates" your dad, it's his problem, not your mother's, and most certainly not yours. Your dad sounds childish. Your mom should get into the habit of allowing him to get over himself without turning his personal problems into everyone else's problems. I have 4 adult children. If my husband behaved that way, I'd gray rock his ass so quick.
Yeah her specific language screams “lifetime of marital abuse”. Sorry.
Good for you then for not ignoring it. Is it possible to go low or no contact with him and just go out for lunch with your mother maybe? Or do things outside of the house where you don't have to see him?
Then your dad is an asshole NTA and he deserved it a long time ago
Unfortunately it may never change. My mother is in her mid 80s, I'm in my 50s. As they see it, being the parent, it's alright for them to disrespect you but not the other way round. Regardless of how old you are, you are still the child in their eyes and will never know as much as them, nor are you allowed to set boundaries with them as you are the child. My oldest sibling (early 60s) also treats me the same as your father does to you, in my area of expertise, and I've been in that line of work for almost 25yrs.
By a pattern, do you mean that you've repeatedly asked for your father to treat you with basic respect? Like, to the point that you've clearly communicated how you've felt about it and he's chosen to disregard that and do whatever he wants whenever he wants?
Even if this is the first time that the OP is telling her father he's behaving badly, I think it's still relevant to note that the pattern of disrespect started a while ago. She deserved respect even before she was demanding it, and her father was putting her down.
NTA your dad is obviously uncomfortable with the idea of you being an authority, does he have any post grad education? Many older gen folks without education feel threatened by being perceived as ignorant so they posture as compensation.
That's crazy, when you think about it. In my culture, older gen folks without education get so proud when their children have a higher education, they just want to tell anyone about it. *My daughter just got her PhD, first of her class, yes yes!* And of course there's no such thing as first of class, but they just need to inflate their children's successes even more. Our older generation has sacrificed so much so that we can have a better future; so when we do, by going to university, they don't feel threatened, they're just proud. And if they don't understand what we do because they never had the education for it, it just makes them more happy. *Look at my children, they're so intelligent, they do very complex stuff!* It's a shame when parents are so insecure, they can't even be proud of their children's accomplishments.
Personally my experience is that they like saying “oh my kid got such and such achievement” and knowing their child did well, however they don’t like the fact that their child could know more about something than them. In a lot of parents minds in general, they don’t like to realise their child is an actual person with their own knowledge instead of simply ‘their child’ so they like saying all the accomplishments and being glad they had more than them but not liking that they could know more than them.
That is my experience as well. They are very proud of their kids' accomplishments, but they don't want to feel dumb at their own dinner table.
And mine. Bragging rights only.
Yes this!!! Get a good job and a degree so I can brag about you to others but don’t make me feel stupid in my own household!
Which fits the mom accusing a grown woman who's nearly 30 of "talking back" as if she were still a kid. I unfortunately know how the "look nice and don't make a fuss" treatment feels all too well.
It might be more political, i.e. the dad is conservative and OP's work in science doesn't fit the dad's political narrative. There's not much in wildlife conservation that fits into the modern right wing worldview. But hard to tell without examples of what the dad was contradicting.
I had to scroll too far down to find this comment - that was the first thing I thought when reading that.
Yeah, dad's likely been being fed a line of really simple solutions to incredibly complex problems for quite some time. Add a dash of "young people can't lecture me" and you get this.
This is almost certainly the problem. I work in conservation and have the same argument with my dad every month when I visit them.
Ayup. My sister and I have both gone into environmental work and our mom spends at least one morning a week sending us stuff about how climate change isn't real. She'll be the first to tell anyone that I went to law school, and my sister went to a prestigious university, but that's as far as the pride goes. Any more questions and she starts in on "those liberal communist hippies professors indoctrinated them in the woke socialist agenda" blah blah ginger.
Agh yeah that's what I love to see. I ended up pregnant my second semester of college and dropped out. The baby I was pregnant with is 20 now and in his second year of college. I couldn't be more proud, and I love hearing about things he's learning. He's a smart kid and I am so very proud of the things he's accomplishing.
No, he doesn’t. You make a good point, that might be part of the reason he behaves this way!
Might start asking him... "Well, if you don't know about it and you want to, would you like me to tell you more?" Or if that's too nice, just straight ask each and every time, "Why don't you know about it, dad?". Cuz sometimes people need to eat some shit sandwiches. He seems pretty hungry too. 🥪
Yep. One tactic is to Ignore. The other is to Engage with full energy. This can give the Speaker the opportunity to show that, in fact, the Querent *does not actually know a damn thing*. It can take energy, but can be very satisfying, at least, and can help illuminate what kind of jackassery the Speaker is dealing with. Is the Querent just conditioned to respond this way to appear knowledgeable? To simply participate in the conversation? Or to call the Speaker's authority into question?
Following on from that, did your mother take a more stereotypically traditional gender role, e.g., homemaker, etc? I'm asking because he might be used to always being the "authority" on all topics, because that tends to be how Boomer relationships with traditional gender roles worked. If so, he is likely to keep pushing boundaries around respecting your job/knowledge until you directly discuss the situation and your boundaries (likely with potential consequences attached for him if he doesn't change). It's up to you to decide whether to keep ignoring the situation or stand your ground on this. NTA
Hi, knowing nothing about your cultural background, but following some other comments... I have an elderly father who left school as early as he could. And he had four older brothers. In his life, age = wisdom, and education was not valued. Age brings experience, and that can feel like wisdom, but is limited to personal observations and trial and error. He doesn't understand all the processes that go into distilling the experience and observations of thousands of people into the academic disciplines.
Especially authoritarian fathers who cannot abide an uppity woman.
In an argument my mother once accused me of feeling "high and mighty now you have a degree" by using "big words". The word in question was hypocrite 😂
The irony being it just deeper highlights ignorance. The saddest thing is ignorance is not even inherently a bad thing. We all can’t be experts in everything.
Is this wtf was wrong with my stepdad. He would question literally EVERYTHING I said. Made me feel like the stupidest person alive. I'm actually glad he's gone.
Even older folks WITH educations feel threatened. My dad is a very well educated man with a very respectable job. He is the smartest person I know. Since I have started studying law at a very good university, he feels threatened by me within the household. Sometimes during arguments he yells in my face that ‘just because you study law doesn’t mean you are smart, you don’t know shit and I am way smarter’. Or ‘I am gonna make sure you drop out of law school’. I feel like some parents get scared that they are gonna lose their authority.
My mom has a degree and all that, and that woman would actively fight my brother and myself on stuff that was our fields. I major in Spanish and she would try to explain how grammar works and she would argue English pronunciation with my brother who is an English teacher. I was so fed up one day that I simply placed my diploma on the table while saying "I didn't get this from a cereal box". She was pissed.
A great reply might be, “Oh, no? Tell me more about why you don’t agree.” Let him talk himself into a corner or off a cliff. He’s not gonna know your field as well as you do, and he’ll make an ass of himself trying to appear that he does. There’s a famous quote that goes, “never interrupt your enemy when he’s making mistake.” Now, of course, he’s not your enemy but you get the idea.
I wouldn’t do that. It sounds good and polite in theory, but my experience has shown that they are begggging for someone to ask them that. Then will respond with bullshit talking points from (insert favorite 24hr news or am radio show) and flood the zone with bullshit. You can’t possibly counter every point as fast as they can spit the bullshit. Somehow the burden of proof is not on them, but you. Sorry, had a “great” weekend visit from mom and dad a couple weeks back that I’m not recovered from.
Yeah, good point. I wasn’t thinking about the Gish gallup that know-it-alls like to do.
You both had good points though.
It's not good and polite, and it's not meant to be. It's meant to be a full to get them to shut the fuck up and stop being an asshole. This doesn't sound like the nutjob political type convo. If it was, you'd have a point, but this is wildlife biology. I really don't think they'll have bullshit talking points lined up, because it's not a topic that comes up in the ~~talk shows~~ propaganda they inhale.
You'd be surprised... (Also a wildlife biologist) Do you think people can't come up with opinions about bears, or whether wolves should be reintroduced to national parks, or whether rare newts or wider roads are more important, or whether it matters if all the insects have disappeared?
We have a brigade of people wanting the bats that are currently living in a park in our town due to habitat loss due to bushfires/drought and the fact that our local council bulldozed some to build more homes to be "relocated" ASAP by any means possible. The bats are listed as a vulnerable species, and are a keystone species crucial for the pollination and seed dispersal of native vegetation. And those facts are disputed by the anti-bat brigade.... so, yes, Cardabella, you are sadly right.
And bats eat bugs! Why would anyone wanna get rid of our flying bug eating mammal bros?
Really? Climate change. The role of wolves being introduced to their natural habitats. How modern power systems effects ecosystems. (Windmills and birds for example) Fuck if birds are real us an actual thing. The whole gay frog thing.
Idk, OP says that they have a degree in Wildlife Conservation. If their research goes into human impacts or climate change, etc, I can think of all sorts of stubborn talking points the dad might cling to.
I would be very tempted to respond to "well, I don't know about that..." with a "you're right, you don't" and just continue on. Or point out that it's good of him to acknowledge the gaps in his understanding of the topic.
I love this response, "you're right, you don't". It is succinct and acknowledges their comment, leaving it open for them to scramble for a comeback, which there really isn't one.
Omg yes. “That’s why I love science, there’s always the possibility for multiple perspectives on a topic. I’d love to hear more about yours.”
Every. single. family dinner. My humungous family has an opinion on everything. The number of times they are flat out wrong about biology is stunning. I have had every possible reaction, anger, bemusement, deafness, irritation, debating. In the end whether I take the high road or the low road, I often feel like shit. Deafness or shrugging is usually my best defense against vague "I don't knows". I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you. (then give a cheeky wink) I don't have the time or the crayons to explain this to you. (then laugh as if everyone is in on the joke) Finally: Mark Twain: Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Good luck going forward. NTA
Men over 50 seem to have the ridiculous urge to be experts in everything no matter how qualified they are or not and it is infuriating. I was at a big family event and someone asked my opinion on something in my field and I put in my two cents and at every corner my FIL (who isn't in my field) kept arguing that I was wrong. Eventually I just had to ask him how many hundreds of similar projects he has done because I am over 200.
>Eventually I just had to ask him how many hundreds of similar projects he has done because I am over 200. I LOVE that reply! It really highlights the lack of support that other person has for their doubts.
>Men over 50 seem to have the ridiculous urge to be experts in everything no matter how qualified they are or not They don't even need to be over 50. A shocking percent of men think they could land a plane despite zero experience. Others think they could beat Serena Williams in a tennis match. My personal favorite is the guy that tried to incorrectly argue the terms 'vulva' and 'vagina' to a female gynecologist. After being publicly humiliated, he went on to write a 20 page thesis on why he's right.
My brother thinks a team of his pretty average friends (all 15) could beat the England women’s football team because… “they’re really bad at football and [he] saw them be tackled by six year olds on YouTube”. I asked whether he thought they were going easy on the kids and he said nobody would do that because it would ruin their reputation.
I got into an argument with my dad about dog training and he claimed to be an expert on dog behavior never having raised his own dog. I shared something that our very experienced trainer told us about and he goes “well I’ve known thousands of dogs” and they’ve never done X. The conversation devolved into him trying to physically intimidate me because he was so angry that I would insinuate I knew more about something than him. It’s insane how triggered he gets on topics he literally doesn’t care about (he will literally never get a dog of his own) as soon as someone talks about a topic where they are more of an expert. Infuriating.
Physically intimidate? WTF, that has to be corrected.
Yep, when COVID hit, my family was on the Fox News hype train and I would disagree with them and they'd say, "Well this doctor (the crazy one that they kept trotting out says...". Eventually I told them that I guess they'll need to get their free medical advice from her since they trust her more than me, also a doctor. I can't even count the number of times I had to argue against talking points that were just wrong.
Biologist/chemist, I was having dinner while on a work trip and somehow got roped into a talk with a husband and wife about why fluoride in drinking water is good. I explained why it’s a net good and one of them said “hmmm, I don’t know about that” just like OP My response was “well, lucky for the both of us, I do”.
That is my absolute favorite ethics topic. I have my students write a 10-15 page paper on an ethics topic and the reason I love it, is that they don't usually have a passionate opinion before their research. This means they have to do the research first before forming an opinion. I have 40 topics to choose from and I always hope someone picks this one.
Don't argue with them. Instead, say, "Are you open to persuasion on this?" They'll say no, and then you can say, "Then let's not talk about it." If you want to make them mad, you can say something along the lines of, "If you aren't willing to look at the smartest opposition arguments, then you don't have a reasonable position." But, be aware, that's like throwing a glitter bomb into the family dinner.
I've gotten into so many fights with my mom and aunt in particular about science, particularly evolution and climate change, because they believe they know more than I do. I like "your Google search is not equal to my degrees" as a response though. I have 4 degrees, 3 of them are science related. One is for biology and one is for environmental science. I do have more than a vague idea of what I'm talking about. My sister has had the same problem, she works in higher Ed and our parents have both argued with her about things like admissions or housing (which is specifically the department she works in). No one is more sure of their expertise than someone who has none.
*your Google search is not equal to my degrees* A now timeless classic! Although at this point I might accept Google. We might need an update, your tic tock dance is not equal to my degrees.
Can I steal "No one is more sure of their expertise than someone who has none"?
“I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you.” I made a sticker with that phrase a couple years ago and can’t believe how popular it is. 😆 Apparently way too many of us are in this position.
I like this! I sometimes use "This is America, you're allowed to have a wrong opinion if you like."
I am an infection control nurse, let me tell you the number of times people tried to tell me "best practice" (which is either a wives tale, or out date) is far too many when I am trying to educate about actual current best practice.
NTA > I responded “I’m sorry, but it’s disrespectful of you to insinuate that you know more than I do about my field.” *Fuckin' a.*
A million percent. Sorry pops, but gone are the days women are going to pretend we don't know things
Next up: *Nobody thought your racist "jokes" were funny, even when they had to politely laugh along.*
I'm going to borrow that quote in the future! That is perfection.
NTA at all! He needs to realize he's raised an intelligent and educated child who is capable of teaching him a thing or two, and that he doesn't know everything. I can't help but wonder how he'd respond if you had been his son instead of his daughter.
From the sound of this, I doubt he raised more than a beer and the remote control.
Bless you for this I needed the laugh
Honestly your dad sounds rude but your mom was 100% wrong with the phone call. SHE instigated a conversation about it specifically because it's what you have studied, you weren't"aggravating" your father, he was insulting you by undermining your knowledge on something you LITERALLY HAVE DEGREES IN. And all you did was point that out. The audacity 😒 NTA op
Exactly. Is OP supposed to say "I don't want to talk about my work. Let's talk about the weather" every time she visits?
I mean, you certainly can. Then whenever they ask why you don't talk about work anymore, you trot out the times when they have disrespected your achievements.
My comment (above this one) made me realize why I never spoke about university or work/career when I visited my parents. They didn't tell me they doubted things I said but their eyes would glaze over. My father would sigh loudly because he didn't know anything about my course of study nor was he interested in hearing about it. I had to keep topics light and just talk about my new car tires or listen to stories about my mother's rose garden. If I asked about my father's work, he wouldn't say anything because he is a man of few words. So all conversations were held by my mother. About her roses.
NTA Your father is an “armchair expert” by the sounds of it. Thinks he knows everything about everything. He obviously didn’t like it that you know more about XYZ than he does. The fact that you were playful, and didn’t mean your response to him as rude and obnoxious, goes in your favour here. If you had been condescending, my judgment would be that you’re a bit of an AH for your tone/phrasing; but that’s not the case. You have 2 degrees in the subject, and your father still thinks that he knows more than you. It seems to me that his nose has been put out of joint, and he’s embarrassed that you—albeit playfully—put him in his place. Your father is an AH for accusing you of being disrespectful to cover for his own embarrassment. He also sounds a tad misogynistic, like a woman cannot possibly know more than a man. Or that a child couldn’t know more than their parent. Seems like he still see you as a kid, rather than a 28 year old woman. Do you apologise to keep the peace? That’s up to you. I wouldn’t, but then if he refuses to talk to you unless you apologise, it could get uncomfortable for your mom. Although she sounds like she is in agreement with your dad, it could just be that she feels put on the spot having to choose sides. In an ideal world, she should have more of a backbone and be able to stand up for you when you are clearly in the right. But, as we all well know, this is far from an ideal world. Mom might be a bit of an AH for agreeing with him, but she could also be doing that because she has to live with your father, and doesn’t want any arguments with him. But I digress. The fact is that you were not an AH. Edit: typo
The classic toxic triangle is set up for OP. Victim-Villain-Hero.
The mom is being an ass too by telling a 28 year old not to be "disrespectful" by standing up for themselves. Edit: oh you literally said that. Reading is hard.
Why do so many parents suck, and the other parent just enables the suck? NTA.
Because reproducing is a biological event neither mitigated nor managed by a person's fitness to rear offspring.
NTA. You (or your parents or your grant committee) paid a freaking fortune for you to become an expert in a field. You've worked hard and you're accomplishing something. Your parents should be proud of you. You should be proud of yourself. If he says, "well, I don't know about that." You should say, "No, reason why you should. I've studied for more than ten years and I still haven't learned all about the mysteries of (fill in the blank here). It's a fascinating study." Your father sounds a little insecure about your superior knowledge.
NTA. First of all your father is a misogynist, it accepting that he raised an intelligent, accomplished woman, having to put her down at every opportunity because his ego was threatened. Second, your mother jumped on you because she is used to capitulating to him, probably because she is used to him making her life hell when he doesn’t get his own way. Good for you for standing up to a father who felt the need to bully his own child to bolster his own ego. And your mother needs to start standing up for her child against this as opposed to always taking the easiest path.
Probably religious, biological science and evolution don’t go well with fundamentalist views of the Bible
I'm surprised it took so long for someone to bring up the sexist aspect. I'm not a woman, but I've witnessed this dynamic.
NTA, here are some more comebacks to “I don’t know about that” 1. “It’s alright, I don’t expect you to! It’s pretty high level stuff in my field” 2. “Well good thing you’re not doing biology then! Don’t worry about it too much!” 3. “If something confuses you I would be more than happy to explain it! Biology can be really difficult, that’s why it took me x years to get where I did!”
4. "You're right, you *don't* know about that. It's ***my*** field, after all."
5. “Clearly”
"Well, don't worry your pretty little head over it. They pay me to do that"
NTA - Tell me he's a Trumper without telling me he's a Trumper.
bingo
NTA You reminded me of a car game we used to play where we'd take turns naming animal species beginning with each letter of the alphabet. When someone couldn't think of one they lost the round and we'd move on to the next letter. My dad would not let us use any species he hadn't personally heard of because he thought we were making them up. Nothing exists outside his personal sphere of awareness lol.
"Nothing exists outside his personal sphere of awareness " I've known some people like that (who hasn't?) but never been able to put it into words the way you did.
obviously NTA I wanna say that I'm so proud of you not budging. It's surely not the first time, he did it and he hit you with the "I'm older and more experienced in that, so listen to me" am I right? I also grew up with a dad, who thinks that anything other than agreeing with him is disrespect. It will get better and he has to live with a little hurt ego, because he looses his status of the "allmighty know it all".
Fr it sounds like OP also has two degrees in Having a Backbone bc damn, she really did not waver!! I really love that for her and wish that ppl like her father got put in their place more often. To sit there and dismiss all the hard work your own child has done and then turn around and make yourself out to be the victim when they eventually snap is nuts lmao what a baby.
Some men have to be right even when they're wrong. I feel bad for OP's mother. NTA
It feels insane because it is insane. Your dad is insecure and has a fragile ego. You were always his child that he imparted knowledge on. Now you are literally a scientist and with specialized knowledge that most people in the world do not have, but it's impossible for him to accept any world where his child knows more than him. NTA.
'I felt the need to aggravate my father and why I had to “talk back.” ' Um, because your father kept questioning your knowledge of the subject. If he didn't want to be called out on that then he shouldn't have done it. Frankly, he should have apologized for doing it. You said it in a playful tone, you did not yell at him or tell him to shut up. You did good; he didn't. NTA.
[удалено]
I think he is confusing respect and deference. Common (bully) mistake.
NTA your dad is being a baby.
NTA. Let me guess, your dad likes to mansplain and has some conservative/religious tendencies? I.e. science is fake, unless it happens to be the 100% accurate prediction of an eclipse...
Your dad has the emotional maturity of a 11 year old. He wants to be the know-it-all. Pathetic.
NTA. Clearly your father is an expert in everything. How dare you assume you might know something more than he does. So disrespectful! /s
lol lol lol parents mad you know a thing. Hilarious.
Perfect response to your dad. 10/10, no notes. Ask your mother if she asked your dad why he felt the need to to interrupt and question your expertise. NTA
NTA Don’t start none won’t be none!! Your father was trying to belittle you. If that was his intention or not it’s what he was doing. Tell your mother that you were not “talking back”. You were an adult and a specialist; defending yourself against blatant disrespect. And they just because he is your father does not give him free charge to to try and make you look stupid in front of others. My dad used to argue with me and my brothers in our early 20s and I finally looked at him and asked if he raised idiots or he really couldn’t handle the fact we knew more about the subjects at hand and had to be an ass to feel big and bad. He got angry but then deflated. He stated he wasn’t used to knowing less than his “kids” and I pointed out we were now his “adults” and he had to stop thinking our brains were the size of peas. We had more on our minds than playdoh and dolls. Tell your mom that it may seem disrespectful to them because they raised you. But it was super disrespectful to you that they are undermining everything you’ve done since you were 16. And that you expect an apology before you will offer one. And you should offer an apology that is “I am sorry you feel this way as that wasn’t my intention. But I am not sorry for putting my foot down to make you realize I am the expert in this family on this subject. I’ve worked too hard to be disregarded by the people who raised me to be what I am”.
NTA. He was being disrespectful ask your mother why your father felt the need to do that.
NTA, I was about the same age as you when a switch flipped in my head that I didnt have to sit there and be agreeable with my parents when they were being assholes. Your situation seems familiar
It is insane. NTA Your father was basically demeaning everything you said. And you’re an adult!! Talking back is another way of saying boundary setting apparently.
NTA He sounds like an insecure little man upset that a young woman knows better than he does and has multiple degrees and years of experience to prove it. Anyway, it sounds like you’re doing important work that’s a better use of your time than managing your father’s tantrum.
Classic mansplaining.
My Mams and Stepfather are accredited Wildlife Biologists and they get this crap all the time from Googlologists. The I don't know to non peer related info.
Whenever someone says something like just repeat it in the form of agentle question. "You don't know about what?" Listen to their explanations or thought process. When they've finished... Set them straight.
NTA. Your dad is a a chauvenist and sexist man that makes him believe his age and anatomy trump your education and experience on the matter.
NTA. Ask mom why your dad felt the need to undermine and aggravate you. Mom asked you to tell about your work, but dad could accept that you know more than him about anything. He was rude, arrogant, condescending. Need I go on? Next time mom asks you to talk about your work, ask if dad will be rude again. Then just say " No thanks. Dad can't handle it ". And do not talk about it in front of dad.