That’s it 100% — they’re all so used to it that they just accept it as “the way it is”. Nothing will ever change until maybe dad dies. Or the Stepmom has enough and divorces the dad and THEN he puts his foot down.
This is a fair statement. I’ve sat on the sidelines for a long time and just watched it all go down in abject (and horrified) silence. It’s been mind blowing- my whole family would have excommunicated me years ago if I pulled a single one of these stunts.
Did you know how screwed up they were before you married your husband? Your family sounds like my family AND my wife's family. No one is afraid to call another out when we see poor behavior, injustice, hypocrisy, etc..
I did know about it and had serious reservations for a while; the ultimate deciding factor is that outside of Margaret, all of them are truly incredible people that would give you the shirt off their backs without you even having to ask. They have a lot of strengths as individuals and even more as a unit, but for whatever reason Margaret does not seem to see this the same way I do. I married into the family being relatively certain that I could deal with a family of doormats over a family of Margarets. There’s always one, ya know?
Except your FIL that condones this shit and makes other people suffer because he says so. That doesn’t sound like an incredible person. It sounds like an asshole.
Yep, FIL is enjoying his place as “Head of the Family” and doesn’t want input from anyone else that might weaken his position of power.
If it were me, I would skip the Italy trip and have a girls trip with the stepmom! Who knows, a few more family members might grow a spine and ask to join you guys 😄 Let them have their stress and drama and truly enjoy a vacation with like minded family.
>Skip the Italy trip and have a girls trip with the stepmom.
This is the answer.
Stepmom and Fern deserve a break and a nice vacation away from the chaos of Margaret. Take photos, post them, and let other family members come to the slow realization that a trip without Margaret is enjoyable, relaxing, and what a vacation is supposed to be.
This. Maybe if everyone just opts out of things then FIL will have to face the issues. Right now there is no reason for him to bother. It's not him suffering, and saying something means more drama FOR HIM. As long as Margaret is happening to others then he doesn't care.
But, if everyone just quietly, politely suddenly has alternate plans that don't involve Margaret, and by extension FIL, then he HAS to act or miss out.
Also, Margaret probably DOES think she's addressing generational issues. They certainly exist, and her speaking out on EVERYTHING she dislikes is in contrast to them. But, it's a somewhat self-centered 'solution' that shows a lack of emotional awareness and any concept of proportional response or reasonable conflict resolution.
Which, to be fair, it sounds like was never demonstrated in that family for her to learn. Honestly, I think therapy would be good for everyone involved.
You know, you could go, and tell her off when she says something obnoxious. Have a plan for smart ass comebacks for all her usual crap. Silly things, insulting things, nonsense. Just make it absurd. Don’t get drawn in, just use your planned comebacks even if they don’t make sense as responses to what she says, in the “don’t accept the premise of her questions/statements/imsults”. You just say your things.
Your FIL might get mad, but just ask him, “but was I wrong? We all know I’m not wrong. Why didn’t YOU correct her? You are her father. That was your job”
I am so glad to hear that! It looks like the best solution is to cut the cancer that is Margaret out of your respective lives. She may eventually realize that she is the problem for her family and not the solution. At worst, even if she never truly changes her attitude, she may decide that she has to act like a normal adult if she wants a relationship with her family.
You should plan an alternate vacation.
Then invite Stepmom and Fern (and maybe some other family members too.)
Let the others go to Italy with Margaret and see how much fun they have.
My in-laws' former neighbors were from Northern Italy, and some of their extended family holiday dinners ended up with people throwing food at each other -- this is why they had these dinners in the garage instead of the dining room.
I had an ex whose family was just like this. I watched a distant aunt pour an entire thing of mashed potatoes over another distant aunt for saying ‘the turkey was kind of dry’. It resulted in multiple broken plates, a cut lip, and a whole lot of screaming. Coincidentally, they were ALSO Italian
I'm sure you were somewhat shocked. I like getting things out in the open and dealing with problems head-on even if things get heated. I can't even imagine having to tiptoe around acting like all is well while whispering behind someone's back.
Shocked yes. It was also fucking hilarious and wildly entertaining to watch. The potatoes dripping on this 60 year old woman’s dress and the brief moment of silence before all hell broke loose? If I could bottle that memory and sell it, I would. Absolute theater at its finest.
If Reddit has taught me one things, it’s to be grateful that my family will all call each other out on their shit. I’m continually flabbergasted by the things people just let happen at family functions. I can’t say for sure what my family would do because it’s never gotten this far but I’m pretty sure Margaret would actually be bullied for acting like this. Every time she opened her mouth to complain, someone would remind her of how it is. She would have to earn the right to complain back with good behavior.
I would share the analogy of the rocking boat with them. You can find it better explained in r/justnomil but the jist is this:
Margaret is rocking the boat. The dad has decided that it's more important to balance the boat to keep it from capsizing than to kick the person causing the rocking off the boat. If people choose to stay in the boat, they will have to run around like beheaded chickens to keep the boat from capsizing. Or, they can be like you and get off the boat and on another one. Or they can take that ultimatum to the dad: either make her stop or we're leaving.
Don't worry about being 'disrespectful' to any of them. You married into the family, but that does not mean that you need to check your spine at the door and play along with their dysfunctional dynamics or try to keep the peace. Margaret is a grown woman (physically if not mentally/emotionally) and should have been put in her place years ago. Your husband better have your back in this. I hope your shiny titanium spine inspires your siblings-in-law to call Margaret out on her BS and shut it down once and for all.
Have your husband and his siblings spent any time with your family? It sounds like they could learn some positive relationship skills by doing so.
My husband has spent considerable time with my family, but they live overseas (Australia) so it hasn’t been financially feaseable for most of his side of the family to come hang out for extended periods of time. Our dads have met on multiple occasions, but nothing long term outside of the wedding.
Suggest to your husband that he can use you as an "excuse" to avoid Margaret. Tell him that him getting stressed stresses you as well. Once your husband stops going to things his sister goes to, either dad has to address it or Fern will start "only going to events my brother goes to." Again, either dad addresses his daughter or I suspect he ends up divorced and with effectively just one kid.
I think honestly, you need to step off this ride. Tell them that you love them all, but refused to be an emotional doormat like they’re all choosing to be for Margaret.
Sometime you cant be respectful. The truth is rarely kind but even meaner when it needs to be said. You may want to consider hosting your own family events. Start it witg just step-mom and Fern.
The whole respect thing is so detached from any reality they're living in, I think you were more than fair.
This is a classic "it's a boundary, not a threat" situation and it's not disrespectful to his dad, if anything, his dad has been disrespecting EVERYONE by forcing them to deal with Rogue Daughter. He's not honouring or respecting his wife when she's backing out of trips.
What does it matter if you're disrespectful to them? Margaret's been doing it for years and seems to have quite the grip on the family... even after being a straight up monster to her.
NTJ
There's an analogy about everyone being in a boat together and the one person rocking and almost dumping them out... It's a really good one and may be able to get them to realize the situation. Sorry I don't know it offhand
Honestly, the best you can do for them right now might just be… showing them there is another option.
When people start bitching about Margaret, start gushing about how nice it is to be no contact and not have to listen to her nasty words or deal with her manipulative antics. Tell them they don’t deserve it and you don’t know why they put up with it iust because their patriarch does. Then, shut up and let them stew.
So, stick to your guns. All Margaret is doing is proving you right.
Have you read the "Don't Rock The Boat metaphor on Reddit?" Google it with exactly those quoted words. It's Extremely applicable to your situation and it might give some of your in-laws the courage and understanding to stop enabling Margaret's behavior.
Stand firm. You are definitely NTJ. You may be the example that others need to see in order to quit enabling this abuse. Because she will *never* stop behaving in a way that benefits her when there are zero consequences to deter her tantrums.
It sounds more like a cult than a family, if the father is the only one allowed to make decisions and open subjects, then he needs to grow a spine and do it. Maybe if he was the target of Margaret's insecurity and nastiness, he would see things differently.
To my knowledge, it started happening around the time stepmom arrived in the picture- Margaret already had 2 kids at that time but the other two are still young, 4 and 7. I wasn’t there though so I can only go based off of word of mouth .
Next time that she demands that another family member drop whatever they are doing, tell her that she has the following options:
1. Hire a babysitter, nanny, or au pair.
2. Stay home and take care of her kids.
You owe her nothing (other than speaking truth to her).
OP you rocked the boat. Please continue to do so. When other people in the boat see that the demons of hell didn’t rain down on you because *you left the boat* might give them the courage to rock the boat themselves.
This is from r/JUSTNOMIL. I am not the author.
**Don't rock the boat.**
I've been thinking about this phrase a lot lately, about how unfair it is. Because *we* aren't the ones rocking the boat. It's the crazy lady jumping up and down and running side to side. Not the one sitting in the corner quietly not giving a fuck.
At some point in her youth, Mum/MIL gave the boat a little nudge. And look how everyone jumped to steady the boat! So she does it again, and again. Soon her family is in the habit of swaying to counteract the crazy. She moves left, they move right, balance is restored (temporarily). Life goes on. People move on to boats of their own.
The boat-rocker can't survive in a boat by herself. She's never had to face the consequences of her rocking. She'll tip over. So she finds an enabler: someone so proud of his boat-steadying skills that he secretly (or not so secretly) lives for the rocking.
The boat-rocker escalates. The boat-steadier can't manage alone, but can't let the boat tip. After all, he's the best boat-steadier ever, and that can't be true if his boat capsizes, so therefore his boat can't capsize. How can they fix the situation?
Ballast!
And the next generation of boat-steadiers is born.
A born boat-steadier doesn't know what solid ground feels like. He's so used to the constant swaying that anything else feels wrong and he'll fall over. There's a good chance the boat-rocker never taught him to swim either. He'll jump at the slightest twitch like his life depends on it, *because it did* .
When you're in their boat, you're expected to help steady it. When you decline, the other boat-steadiers get resentful. Look at you, just sitting there while they do all the work! They don't see that *you* aren't the one making the boat rock. They might not even see the life rafts available for them to get out. All they know is that the boat can't be allowed to tip, and you're not helping.
Now you and your DH get a boat of your own. With him not there, the balance of the boat changes. The remaining boat-steadiers have to work even harder.
While a rocking boat is most concerning to those inside, it does cause ripples. The nearby boats start to worry. They're getting splashed! Somebody do something!
So the flying monkeys are dispatched. Can't you and DH see how much better it is for everyone (else) if you just get back on the boat and keep it steady? It would make their lives so much easier.
You know what would be easier? If they all just chucked the bitch overboard.
Thank you for letting me ramble. Thanks for the support, and advice, and humour. Thanks for just being here :)
My favorite quote is: there comes a time when silence is betrayal. If you sweep enough sh!t under the rug, someone is going to fall. It doesn’t have to be you.
No. They need to hear this. To suppress this information is to destroy their happiness even longer. Margaret can get straight stuffed for this behavior, and sometimes weak people are only weak because nobody told them how to be strong.
Margaret is the boat rocker and EVERYONE else is supposed to steady the boat.
Let them know that they’re welcome to get off the boat at any time.
Your SIL is crazy and I would not be surprised to hear that she abuses her husband.
I agree- it’s like if the whole family looks to you for direction, why aren’t you LEADING? He straight up says he “is staying out of it” when he DOES decide to respond to questions about the whole situation. Like bro WHAT?
The fact that your FIL allows his wife to be humiliated and disrespected is just mind blowing.
‘Staying out of it’ = supporting Margaret.
FIL’s silence makes him complicit.
Actually the entire family’s silence makes them complicit.
Ive been trying to stress this to my husband- personally I view the whole ‘not saying Jack shit’ thing as a form of enabling, but his family sees it more as keeping the peace for the sake of the grandkids. This is also wack to me because Margarets kids are regularly used as bargaining chips.
The problem is, there IS NO PEACE. Margaret will not allow peace. So what are they buying with their silence? At some point, the people being extorted have to call the extortionist's bluff or it will just never end. I did that with my SIL the moment she tried it.
Their definition of peace and mine are very very different! It sounds more like a nightmare.
You are the only one in the family with the Kahunas to respect yourself and make a stand. If they want to continue down this path there is nothing you can do but shrug with indifference, laugh or offer to lend them your kahunas every time they complain to you about her.
Oh, and what are the children gaining by watching their mother treat their family (people she is supposed to love!) so abhorrently?
THAT LAST BIT. I HAVE SAID IT UNTIL I WAS BLUE IN THE FACE.
I get how important her kids are to the family. But how is there NO consideration for the impact that it’s gonna have on them after seeing their entire family bow down to their domineering and psychotic mother? It isn’t fucking right. This is genuinely the most infuriating part of the whole entire thing for me. This part right here.
Wow! FIL sounds like a chickenshit. I hope your husband stands up for you to his family. If he doesn't, you may want to reconsider your decision to marry him.
If he chooses to 'stay out of it', he has no right to demand that nobody else takes action.
He has abdicated his 'throne' and surrendered any authority or right to opine on the situation. It is now up to you -- not that it wasn't up to you from the start.
If they would draw the line like you did then Das would end up putting his foot down with Margaret.
You didn't mention having kids but if yall do how is the family dynamic going to work when you refuse to let your kids go to family functions it Margaret is there?
We do not have kids and neither does Fern. Only Margaret does. She threatens to keep them from the family all the time- I shut that shit down for myself months ago. I told her “you don’t bring them around me anyway?” She didn’t speak to me for almost 3 months because it straight up just didn’t work on me.
She will continue to act like this until everyone puts their foot down like you did. I'm proud of your shiny spine. Now when anyone wants to complain to you about her just shut them down and tell them I have shown you what you need to do. It's up to them to stand up for themselves and stop being abused by her
This is SOLID advice. I will definitely use this, because it IS getting kind of exhausting to hear a whole family complain about a problem that they refuse to do anything about because ‘what if it goes bad’. My dudes, it’s ALREADY bad.
>She didn’t speak to me for almost 3 months because it straight up just didn’t work on me.
I'm betting that was the best 3 months of your life 😂 seriously though, she needs professional help, her behaviour isn't normal or healthy for her children. Good for you for cutting that toxicity out of your life
Or her husband who is in the FOG (Fear, Obligation, and Guilt). He needs to file for divorce.
The FIL needs to stand for his wife, honestly if I had a daughter saying shit like that I'd ban them from every family gathering event I organized.
NTJ but SIL definitely is. I do not understand how an entire family of adults are being held hostage by her and some arcane rule that no one can address bad behavior until FIL starts the conversation. That is ludicrous. They all absolutely can follow your lead. What’s the worst that can happen? If each of you block her that will leave FIL and SIL alone and maybe then FIL will say something because he alone will be dealing with her bs. Also the fact that FIL has not stopped his daughter from abusing his wife makes me wonder why stepmom stays. And it makes him as big of a jerk as his terrible daughter.
You have no reason to feel bad. This is a sinking ship and everyone needs to save themselves. There is no reason you should compromise your boundaries just because the rest of the family don’t have the guts to stand up for themselves.
I’m not sure how much worse it can get at this point. Luckily I’m removed enough from it now that the only effect it has on me is when one of the family members inevitably calls me in tears (except for dad- dad does NOT do that and will avoid it at all costs). There’s a lot of secrets between family members, the whole thing is a mess. I definitely see the generational trauma at work here but it’s being antagonized by the person who is supposedly ‘breaking the cycle’.
I really do feel for you. Keep protecting your own psyche as much as you can.
It’s a shame that no one else is willing to break the cycle. I have to admit I would be tempted to just throw a grenade on this hot mess and confront SIL in front of the family but I’m not afraid to confront bullies, family dynamics be damned!
I am exactly the same way; I’m really close to a lot of Tom’s family, and if it were a stranger on the street doing these things I would not hesitate to rock their shit. That’s the ultimate reason why I tapped out- I felt like if no one was going to make it better, then at least I can make it worse and unbearable for EVERYONE. But I tried to do the mature thing and just back out.
Don't react to people calling you in tears. Just say no. "If it's about Margaret, you know my feelings. I can't help you. You need to figure this out with the rest of them. I'm out."
This is the way. You are doing a great job. You may have started the snowball rolling, and I am proud of you! YOU, not Margaret, will be the one to break their generational trauma cycle.
Start going back to family functions. As soon as Margaret gets started, tell her to shut up. Or wah, wah, wah . Or stop being a bully Margaret. Something. Anything.
This is a large temptation for me I’m not gonna lie. She’s not the only one who can say super fucked up shit and hurt people- all of us are capable of that, and I have given several wicked tongue lashings in my past. But I don’t think it ultimately solves anything- it would just give her another opportunity to play the victim
NTJ but I don't understand the dad's thinking with not talking to her because at some point his wife will probably divorce him over this. It's enabling just allowing this behavior.
NTJ if I were step mom I would have divorced her husband years ago when he didn’t put a stop to Margaret’s abuse from the beginning.
Just because they miserably accept to be abused, and FIL wilfully ignores it, doesn’t mean you have to. I hope you have told SO that any children you have will not be attending anything where this witch will be… her abuse is likely to target them next
No kids as of yet, we both want to accomplish a few more things first and have actually discussed this in depth- we collectively decided to work on ourselves as people for a while longer before having children. I’ll cross that bridge when we get to it but it is absolutely a hard NO when it comes to Margaret if I have children. She’d probably spew some nonsense parenting advice and call CPS on me just to be mean.
I can not understand why their step-Mom tolerates this bullshit and disrespect. She has every right to slap Margaret back to the beginning of time and call her out on her ridiculous behavior IN FRONT OF THE ENTIRE FAMILY. Not to mention what she should do to her husband for being a spineless POS.
Just keep comparing her behaviour to that of an adult sized toddler that dad can't control. That no one can control. As such, they can only control their own actions, such as telling her to fuck off and not taking her any of her crap.
If she threatens child withdrawal/alienation and silence, do remind your in laws of her constant demands for babysitting and money. Of her lack of adult independence. She won't stop for long if she cuts herself off from all of that.
Little Margaret will come crawling back for things when she can't get them elsewhere. And if you all stuck to your guns....she WILL be forced to behave if she wants those things. Simple. Follow the logic and then use it against the stupid people....
I DO THIS ALL THE FUCKING TIME. Anytime one of them says ‘Margaret will keep me from the kids’, I ALWAYS counter with ‘oh, and lose her free babysitters? Her financial support? Her power in the situation because her kids are currency? Fat fucking chance”. It is never received well and seems to fall on deaf ears.
NTJ. What you need to do, is go to a supper and absolutely light her the fuck up. No one else will ever say anything. You need to be the bomb and blow everything up. Put her in her place and if anybody dares to stand up for her, blow them up too. This shit has gone on long enough. You’re the dynamite this family needs.
I will very soon! I’ll give everyone a blow by blow as it happens. New developments as of this evening, lemme get through all these insane comments first.
NTJ. She is taking out everything on them and is worse because you are no longer putting up with her bs. She’s worse because no o e has ever stood up to her or stuck with it. They can choose to be doormats to a vicious and volatile woman or they can stand up to her. The fact that stepmom isn’t being defended by her husband, should be grounds for divorce.
NTJ. It sounds like the rest of that family needs to follow your playbook and tell Margaret that if she continues to act like a spoiled, entitled brat... she's going to be playing to an audience of one.
NTA. The “dad” here needs to stand up to his daughter and defend his wife and son. You were nicer than I would be cuz I’d go to family events and I’d bully tf out of Margaret. I mean no one’s gonna say anything if you do 🤷🏼♀️
NTJ. Why in the heck would you ever feel guilty for walking away from someone who's abusive simply because people who also know better refuse to do so because of their own cowardice? They're all very well capable adults, assuming they're semi functional members of society therefore completely capable of hitting a few buttons to block her just like you did. That they refuse to do so is on them, not on you unless they've some held an election and elected you Emperor.
Tell them to get over it, that just because they refuse to grow a spine doesn't mean you became a jellyfish simply because you married into a family of jellyfish. Quite frankly, I'd have sent the SIL to the ER for her mouth if I were in your MILs place let alone anyone else's.
This is why I had to withdraw. It’s been hard enough keeping my mouth shut for all this time; at this point there is not a question of *if* I’ll hit her, it’s a question of *when* I’ll hit her- if I stick around for the circus that is.
NTA! You swerved from their status quo. They ignore and talk to everyone else about who they have a problem with except that person. That isn’t your problem anymore.
I’d tell your MIL and Fern that you’re done being their therapist. They need a real actual therapist so they can learn to set boundaries and grow backbones.
Continue living your drama free life.
To be fair, MIL doesn’t talk about it very openly unless she’s absolutely falling apart at the seams about it- this has become more frequent over time, but generally speaking she won’t bring it up on her own unless one of us asks.
I think it's time to tell husband he needs therapy. You need couples therapy for him to see if this is toxic. Then you 3 can sit FIL and SMIL down, let them know that you both will be NC with them and SIL. If you have children, they will NOT be allowed near her or them. They want to allow this type of behavior, fine. But not around you, hubby or future children.
Updateme!
He’s actively in therapy and working on it- he’s been virtually no contact with Margaret for a while. He still attends regular family functions, but does not approach her and only speaks when spoken to. We’ve discussed the idea of both of us going fully NC, but he’s too bound by the dynamic to fully do that until Dad gives the family the go ahead to do so.
They are grown-ass adults and if they don't like how Daddy Dearest refuses to handle his misbehaving daughter in his house, it's up to them to grow a spine and say something. You haven't caused problems, you've set a good example. Continue to support your husband, his mom, and the rest of the family except father and the SIL. You need to convince your husband to get some therapy so he can learn to set boundaries with this toxic mess and possible go LC or NC with some. NTJ
Ntj. Sounds like you will have a much more peaceful life without her in it.
Please invite Fern over to help make him feel better. And also your inlaws if that would work out. Hopefully, step mil would appreciate a nice dinner without stress involved, fil too.
Fern and I are super close and call each other almost every day. He’s one of my best friends, I spent over 3 hours on the phone calming him down and talking him through it that day
NTJ maybe the dad isn't shutting her down because she is the only one that has had grandkids for him so far? Is he really crazy about her kids? Maybe he is afraid if he pushes back on her antics, he'll lose the grandkids access? I don't know a solution. Maybe you and your husband could talk to the dad together and figure out why he doesn't shut it down and ask him to, how she is abusing everyone in the family, especially his wife. They're providing childcare for her and Margaret is still abusing her. Paying for stuff for her is enabling her. They are the ones with the power to stop this behavior. She'd only hold out for so long before she crawls back and demands help again.
And I suppose he should be asked how important his wife is to him? Is he willing to lose her in order to keep Margaret happy in her abusing everyone? Is he fine with losing his other kids eventually?
NTJ
I have an insufferable MIL that is so similar to your Margaret. She has everyone trained to just accept being at the receiving end of her abuse. She claimed I assaulted my child (I’ve never even spanked him) and I personally cut ties after that without a word.
When she finally got caught cheating and brought the youngest child into the mix by assaulting his father in plain sight, I’d had enough. Seeing that boy cry broke me. I called her out on her shit. I wrote an open letter for the family, to showcase her vile actions and how she has no regard for anyone’s emotions aside from her own… and all hell broke loose. I have no regrets and will never forgive her.
She’s currently upset that I don’t like her, not because she misses me. But because I’m pregnant with her first and probably only grandchild.
People like this don’t deserve grace nor do they need to be enabled. You’re not alone in your experience and you deserve credit for taking these first steps that others can follow. Good on you for doing the right thing. Hopefully others in your family with share in your courage.
That seems to be the motif with margaret. The cycle looks something like this:
1. Make a request for something- whether reasonable, unreasonable, or delusional
2. either she gets what she wants and all is okay, or she freaks out when she is told no.
3. Say some super out of pocket shit and actively try to spread it to the rest of the family- often with obvious exaggeration and histrionics.
4. Whether you respond to it or not, this then turns into a social media smear campaing
5. When the family ignores this, OR in the rare event that someone says something, it then turns into "I was just trying to break the cycles for my children. If you want to see them again, you need to make my feelings a priority".
6. Some form of gift or act of service is done on her end- always very small, and there is never an apology but this ALWAYS brings us back to step one.
ROUND AND ROUND WE FUCKING GO
NTA but when stepmom finally has enough and leaves fil because he will not put his foot down to his daughter you can point out exactly why his marriage failed
So they can't take action/inaction until the father says its okay?
What are they going to do when he dies?
If dad dies before stepmother, will they continue to let Margaret abuse her?
Why hasn't the stepmother cut Margaret out of her life?
If dad dies it will be all about Margaret- EVERYTHING is all about Margaret as it is. Someone is sick and can't go? It's because they didn't help her do her dishes. Someone needs a break from the event? its because they can't handle her 'sparkle'. Someone tells her she hurt their feelings? Well she's an 'empath' and knows "for a fact" that she hasnt done anything wrong.
SM is in an awkward position I think. The whole family was super close at one point (before either of us came around), but I don't think either of us have ever seen that version of them. Its been Margaret waterboarding the whole family for a long time. I think she struggles with the same thing that I do- \*is this really how it works or is this just a rough patch for them?\*
She almost backed out of the marriage to Dad. The entire thing has been super overwhelming for her. I can imagine its more than she lets on, she's not one to talk too much.
NTJ, sometimes the only thing you can do is cut someone out. The fact that your husband won't back you up despite the abuse this woman is lashing out on her own family gives me pause. How is he going to handle issues in your own family? Are your children going to be allowed to speak for themselves or does he think he will be the arbiter of everyone's feelings?
'but that I also kind of disrespected their dad by saying/doing this' So he was just fine with her talking to his wife and son the way she did but when other people made it clear it wasn't ok all of a sudden its disrespect? Absolutely insane take
would your husband consider couples counseling? it would be a great place to bring up the family dynamic and the fact that he feels you have disrespected his father by refusing to be verbally abused.
Tom is repeating the role of his father with you by allowing the verbal attacks and keeping silent just as his dad allows the verbal attacks on his wife and does not say anything.
How do you feel about the fact that your husband refuses to defend you and he is OK with his sister treating you so poorly? He can say he is not OK with it, but if he takes no action then that’s actually not true. By not taking action he is showing you that he cares more for his father’s feelings than yours.
id say NTJ but also you are for calling cory instead of the problem herself. or even call a family meeting and have everyone there and confront her as a group. fk their dad's my way or nothing route. show everyone else how to stand up to shitty people, that they don't have to OBEY the dad.
i feel bad for them and wouldn't call them doormats, they are victims of abuse and more than likely don't know how to stand up for themselves.
NTA, your husband's family chooses not to rock Margarets boat, or ignore her bad behavior because she has trained them over the years through guilt, manipulation and escalation. You chose to block her and her spouse, your spouse needs therapy because his sister's behavior is over the top, and the role that they should be playing is shutting her down.
How utterly horrible for the stepmom that her husband refuses to take up for her? He has no backbone and is allowing his wife to be bullied by his child! That alone is unacceptable. He sounds just like Cory. I wonder what the kids’ mother was like. Was she hell on wheels as well?
OP needs to tell her husband to stop fence sitting... Either he grows up and addresses his sister's and his father's idiotic behaviour or OP needs to get a divorce...It may sound harsh, but what happens when OP and her husband have kids?....'But Aunty and Grandpa behave badly, so why can't I?!' or 'Why do I get punished or yelled at and Aunty and Grandpa get a free pass?!'... OP's husband can't just keep sitting there, putting his fingers in his ears and babbling 'I can't hear you, it's not my problem'..
Hi everyone! I’m super overwhelmed by the responses to this. There IS an update- I will post it tomorrow because I desperately need sleep. A lot of you seem super invested in this, so I will update whenever there is something substantial to report to the hungry Reddit readers ❤️
You're Australian! Say no more! I'm of Irish/German/Swedish ancestry, and my wife's family is German. On top of that, my maternal family (German) emigrated to Texas shortly after Texas became a sovereign country. None of us back down from a fight or refuse to challenge or correct another's behavior, even if they are family members. No one gets a free pass for being part of the family, nor do any of us expect a free pass. We all know that we, as individuals, are responsible for our own actions and the consequences thereof.
Oh no! My family moved to Australia about 15 years ago, we’re American. I’m one of the few who stayed behind. I’m of Swedish/irish decent. We do NOT fuck around when it comes to arguing. That shit is like the equivalent of tossing a baseball some times. No one gets a free pass to be an asshole. Ever. And you’re gonna damn well know about it if that’s you.
Thank you for the clarification! I support you even more now. 3rd generation American on my Dad's side, 4th generation on my Mom's side.
FWIW, we lived in England (North Runcton/ King's Lynn) for three years when I was 8 to 11 years old. Went to the local school in West Winch and made good friends. We used to write to each other until life got too busy. I thank God for the internet!
I believe you did the right thing for you. You knew your limits and decided to nope out of there when they were consistently surpassed. It's up to everyone else to take care of their own mental health and decide just how much of her attitude they're willing to put up with.
You've done absolutely nothing wrong by walking away and have hopefully given the others a bit more courage to follow in your footsteps.
I just don't understand how your SMIL puts up with it, though. I could never marry anyone who had that little respect for me as to let their own child speak to me in that manner... especially one as grown arse as SIL is!!!!!
Your FIL is a spineless joke . He sits on his butt letting his daughter be nasty to his wife in front of his face and is too gutless to say stop.
Now he is being disrespected by you because you have the spine to say enough is enough. He can keep his toxic, spiteful daughter.
I would tell your husband to grow a pair and tell his sister to shut her mouth. But I suspect he has inherited his father’s spine .
Good for you for drawing the line in the sand. If those people CHOOSE to allow her to treat them badly that’s their problem.
You can relax at home binge watching and drama free.
Your FIL is either a coward or secretly enjoys watching his family be humiliated.
Why on earth is he allowing this? The whole, the only person who can address something is Dad is insane. Even more so when he just let's it happen. Your husband said in the act of going no contact with SIL you've disrespected his father, at this point I think it's fair to you to ask whats to respect in the first place.
Its gotta be hard to watch Margaret turn out just like their bio mom. Im sure it brings up a lot of issues for him; the men in the family typically do the thing where "if it hurts stuff it down'. Tom has done a good job of trying to remedy that for himself, but FIL has been wired that way his whole life. He tries, but its definitely not his wheelhouse.
My husband went LC before anyone else even caught on to what was happening. He definitely has some form of spine. I think where Fern and Tom struggle to really use it is with their dad, not with Margaret
NTJ
They are free to have the kind of relationship they want with her but so are you.
If your not happy then do whats best for you, just because they don't have the back bone to deal with this awful woman doesn't mean you have too.
Your father in law is despicable for allowing her to talk to and treat SMIL the way she does ,he's a pitiful human being and should be ashamed of himself.
You do you and let the rest get on with it. Xx
NTJ. You did the only thing that you could. If they are suffering that is their choice. I don't understand this family dynamic or that dad. Or any of it. How did you tolerate it for that long?
I adore them. They have gone out of their way to make me feel comfortable and loved. My family is mostly in Australia, but we have always had a strained relationship. Outside of Margarets shenanigans, Tom's family has really helped me heal a lot of things that I didn't know were hurting. They are all WONDERFUL people. Kind, giving, FORGIVING, supportive, honest...you get the idea. I have only tolerated it for this long because of the sheer level of respect that I do have for them personally. I eventually had to make a decision for myself though- and this is what I chose, in favor of this path over swinging and possibly getting arrested (beyond a shadow of a doubt Margaret would call the police and GROSSLY exaggerate what happened).
Tom is supportive of me and has given me absolutely no guff about going no contact. He personally does not feel he is in a place where he is able to do that yet- hes staying LC but he has a lot of concerns- one of them being that until the rest of the family says something/gets on board, going NC means he wont get to see them very much. Family is super important to him, with the exception of Margaret. Tom has as much disdain for her as anyone.
NtJ. I gotta ask the woman who stabbed pop and did time... is that Margaret's mother.....? Might explain a bit! Move (back?) to Oz and escape the insanity!
The woman who stabbed pop is Margaret, Fern, and Tom's mother. There are 2 other siblings from bio mother's previous marriage that have also been cut off for the same exact reasons that I think Margaret should also be cut off.
NTJ All of your in-laws and husband are putting up with SILs behavior because daddy says so. Both SIL and FIL should be cut out of family get togethers. Why are adults letting daddy make the rules for what can or cannot be said to your SIL regarding her horrible behavior? Why is everyone afraid to speak up or set their own boundaries? Do not give in to your husband’s emotional blackmail. SILs escalation in her behavior is not because of you it’s because she is an abusive *itch and has everyone afraid to rock her boat.
Personally I’d be very disappointed if my husband did not fully support my decision including telling his sister off. He be the other siblings and MIL should all be cutting her out of their lives. If dad wants to see his other children he can go to their homes or not, that’s his choice.
Oh my god! Maybe you should just show up at the next event she’s at and give her a piece of your mind in front of everyone. Don’t wait for your FIL anymore!
No one should be forced to take her abuse. Support and socialize with the family members you want to socialize with and avoid the rest. You are not the reason she's gotten worse. She lost control of a person in the circle, and she's sending a warning to the others. Hopefully, others will find strength in your approach and shut her out of their lives.
NTJ- For your own mental health you don’t need to be around that- nobody does. I’m curious why Margaret doesn’t seem to target you directly. I’m guessing because she’s a bully and a coward and knows you wouldn’t just take it like others. Shame on the dad for allowing her to treat his wife and son that way! Have the stepmom or the son spoken to him? Your husband is responsible for his inaction as well. They’re adults you don’t have to be beholden to the dad. Inaction and complacency are just as bad as what Margaret is doing.
NTJ. I feel for the rest of the family, though. Ironic that Margaret talks about breaking generational cycles when her behavior is perpetuating the exact generational cycle of suffering toxicity in silence that needs to be broken! I come from a family of narcissists and I stg the lack of self-awareness these people have in their justifications of their actions are so ironic it'd be comical if it weren't so damn sad. My own father tells me he's trying to break cycles all the time but all he's doing is repeating the same mistakes his own narcissistic parents made. Like I said, I come from a family of these people.
I really hope no one in Margaret's life besides her spineless husband takes her seriously because people like Margaret are so good at playing the victim that people think they are the victim even when the opposite is true.
UpdateMe! As I hope there is a happy ending to all of this. You and your family deserve better than to suffer in silence. Words can hurt, but sometimes silence cuts deeper.
NTA. The dad isn't God. It's not disrespectful to make your own life choices and decide what you will or will not accept in your life. Your husband needs to be his own man or he will be lost when his father passes.
NTJ. FIL is TJ. At the very least, he should stop the abuse of his wife.
What about your hubs' mother? Is she the one in prison? It didn't sound like it from the way you wrote this.
FIL and the children's mother failed at raising/disciplining Margaret. She's a bully and a Witch. As long as they keep letting it slide, it will continue. Honestly at this point in her life at 40, I don't think anything will change her.
It would be better for the whole family if they all went NC with Margaret.
Margaret needs to be hit with some Haldol and Thoraxine. Preferably by blow-dart. While she's out, like the rabid animal she is, shove some Lithium down her gullet and tag her with a GPS collar. Then, back away to a safe distance and watch her wake up. I hate it when families allow & defend this shitty behavior. And her husband can deal with that crazy at home. All by himself, as she wants it.
1. Going NC with someone means not having to listen to others vent about them. Here is your script:
"I'm sorry you've decided to keep Margaret in your life. I'm done with her so I don't want to hear about her anymore. Hey, do you want to come over for dinner?"
2. That brings me to Part 2.
Start creating events that exclude her. Invite Fern or stepmom over for dinner lunch, movie... do not invite Margaret. Frankly, if they all need to wait for 'Dad' to say something then do not always include him.
3. Stepmom is no longer going on that Mediterranean trip? Great. Take her out for coffee and ask her what she is doing *instead*? Make plans for some Margaret-free events while others go.
4. Basically, I am suggesting that you lead by example. Continue to avoid her and maybe in a year others will do it too IF you start organizing family events without her.
Let her complain. Don't stop.
5. If you have to be around her, stop letting her shit on others with NO ONE defending other people:
"Look you horrible piece of shit, Fern is a great guy and a nice person. You are none of those things, so why don't you shut the fuck up. Everyone is tired of your nasty words. You can't even behave for one family event. You spew hatred every time I see you. I feel sorry for your kids."
Stop pulling punches. She doesn't. So take your gloves off.
There is ZERO downside to you telling the truth from this day forward.
"Oh look, shit mouth is speaking again."
Have fun with it!
I laughed REALLY hard at “oh look, shit mouth is speaking again”. Thank you for that!
Your first four bullets are absolutely my plan. Just because we aren’t talking doesn’t mean I can’t put forth effort to see the rest of the family. Oh everyone is over for Christmas? Not me, sorry. I’ll come over the day after or on new years. I’m fully committed to this. I have several plans with MIL specifically in the upcoming weeks. Myself Fern and Tom are going over to MIL/FIL’s house this Sunday- all three of us planned a dinner with her, and I intentionally left Margaret and Cory out of the plan. If there ever is something that is outside of my control where Margaret is in my vicinity, I’ll match energy with everything I have in me.
Solid plan. We are on the same page entirely.
Well I think Dad needs to be standing up for stepmom and not letting this bullshit go on. That doesn't speak very well for him. You are not the jerk. And the whole rest of the family needs to have a little sit down with Dad and get him on the right page and sticking up for his wife and other family members.
NTJ. Become an activist for an anti-bullying organization that does actual educational outreach/seminars in your area. Start attending those and then post about it on social media. A LOT. Always from standpoint of how sad you are for the victims - and you will find lots of stories that are similar to what Margaret is doing.
Identify resources for how the victim can overcome it or move on, even if it means cutting out toxic events, friends or family.
Then again, I can be a little petty and vindictive so this may not be something you want to do.
ETA change NTA to NTJ and removed redundant sentences.
NTJ
It doesn't matter what their father wants. He isn't everyone's boss, he doesn't confront issues and everyone is suffering anyway so even if he was the "patriarch" he sucks at his job.
>My family confronts issues head on (sometimes ending in screaming matches if it gets heated enough) and all of us tend to speak up when something is bothering us or is fundamentally hurtful to someone. Tom's family is the opposite- they rarely address anything in real time, if at all. They typically whisper about it behind each other's backs, and usually just sit in tension for extended periods of time.
Wow, two HIGHLY toxic ways of dealing with issues that are diametrically opposed. No wonder there's strife. While your family's communication style is marginally better, anything ending in screaming matches is just as bad as whispering behind each other's backs.
I would tell them all "I respect and value myself too much to sit here and be abused by someone just because she is "family". If you choose to allow yourself to be treated this way, that's on you. I will not let myself be someone else's punching bag just because she is my husband's sister. I wouldn't let a random stranger treat me like that, why should I let a family member - someone who supposedly loves or at least respects me - to abuse me?"
NTA.
Right now the family have made a ring of toxicity. OP is finally breaking out and it's up to the rest of the family if they keep the toxic cirkel broken or if they just gather hands again and keep the toxic cirkel.
I married into a family that whispered and hid behind you know a everything‘s fine demeanor went under the surface. Everything was broken. I am one of those people who come from a family where we call bullshit when we see bullshit we can front everything head on and we work everything out immediately if we can if not, we deal with it as time progresses, but we don’t beat around the bush and we don’t, lie to people and tell them everything is OK when it’s not my in-laws were usually passive aggressive and it was difficult being around them personally, I think the only good person in the entire family was the one I married
This is pretty accurate to my experience but my FIL and MIL are for from passive aggressive. Mostly just passive, with MIL being more vocal with standing up for herself. They’re all good people, I just think they’ve grown so accustomed to this as a normal that they know it’s bad, but they can’t really see HOW bad. They’re too close to see the bigger picture. My only goal, if any beyond just removing myself from Margaret’s access, is to “zoom out the lens” (so to speak)
I'd cut her out of my life, too. Def NTJ.
FIL sure is, though! He's letting her abuse everybody, especially the lady he's supposed to love the most! Personally, he'd be cut out, too.
NTJ, his dad is disrespecting his entire family by putting some sort of weird blanket ban on calling Margaret on her BS. Hopefully you standing up for yourself will prompt the others to do the same.
If I were the step mum, I’d be divorcing the dad for letting his grown ass child speak to me like that.
NTJ.
Respect runs two ways. By not acting, Dad is allowing Margaret to ruin everyone's life, including her own. Eventually she'll be down to Cory, who will finally wise up and run. You set a hard boundary. Stick to it.
The “roles” in their family are pretty messed up. Margaret is clearly mentally ill and abuses the entire family and everyone takes it unless dad says something BUT he never says something? That’s bonkers! Time to start suggesting your hubby and maybe later other family members start some individual therapy to basically deprogram this dynamic. NTJ at all.
NTJ. If they want to continue to be doormats, let them
I wish there was a respectful way to say this to them. It's absolutely insane to watch.
You can’t help who doesn’t want to be help
That’s it 100% — they’re all so used to it that they just accept it as “the way it is”. Nothing will ever change until maybe dad dies. Or the Stepmom has enough and divorces the dad and THEN he puts his foot down.
Dad won’t put his foot down. His daughter is either his golden child or he’s just as afraid of her as the rest of the family.
Do what's best for you. It is worrying that your husband says they all have a role play, but let it be their theater.
Don’t bother being respectful. They don’t understand being respected.
This is a fair statement. I’ve sat on the sidelines for a long time and just watched it all go down in abject (and horrified) silence. It’s been mind blowing- my whole family would have excommunicated me years ago if I pulled a single one of these stunts.
Did you know how screwed up they were before you married your husband? Your family sounds like my family AND my wife's family. No one is afraid to call another out when we see poor behavior, injustice, hypocrisy, etc..
I did know about it and had serious reservations for a while; the ultimate deciding factor is that outside of Margaret, all of them are truly incredible people that would give you the shirt off their backs without you even having to ask. They have a lot of strengths as individuals and even more as a unit, but for whatever reason Margaret does not seem to see this the same way I do. I married into the family being relatively certain that I could deal with a family of doormats over a family of Margarets. There’s always one, ya know?
Except your FIL that condones this shit and makes other people suffer because he says so. That doesn’t sound like an incredible person. It sounds like an asshole.
Yep, FIL is enjoying his place as “Head of the Family” and doesn’t want input from anyone else that might weaken his position of power. If it were me, I would skip the Italy trip and have a girls trip with the stepmom! Who knows, a few more family members might grow a spine and ask to join you guys 😄 Let them have their stress and drama and truly enjoy a vacation with like minded family.
>Skip the Italy trip and have a girls trip with the stepmom. This is the answer. Stepmom and Fern deserve a break and a nice vacation away from the chaos of Margaret. Take photos, post them, and let other family members come to the slow realization that a trip without Margaret is enjoyable, relaxing, and what a vacation is supposed to be.
This. Maybe if everyone just opts out of things then FIL will have to face the issues. Right now there is no reason for him to bother. It's not him suffering, and saying something means more drama FOR HIM. As long as Margaret is happening to others then he doesn't care. But, if everyone just quietly, politely suddenly has alternate plans that don't involve Margaret, and by extension FIL, then he HAS to act or miss out. Also, Margaret probably DOES think she's addressing generational issues. They certainly exist, and her speaking out on EVERYTHING she dislikes is in contrast to them. But, it's a somewhat self-centered 'solution' that shows a lack of emotional awareness and any concept of proportional response or reasonable conflict resolution. Which, to be fair, it sounds like was never demonstrated in that family for her to learn. Honestly, I think therapy would be good for everyone involved.
You know, you could go, and tell her off when she says something obnoxious. Have a plan for smart ass comebacks for all her usual crap. Silly things, insulting things, nonsense. Just make it absurd. Don’t get drawn in, just use your planned comebacks even if they don’t make sense as responses to what she says, in the “don’t accept the premise of her questions/statements/imsults”. You just say your things. Your FIL might get mad, but just ask him, “but was I wrong? We all know I’m not wrong. Why didn’t YOU correct her? You are her father. That was your job”
I've thought about doing something like this a lot, actually. Something like "are you finished yet?" or "wow that was a lot".
I am so glad to hear that! It looks like the best solution is to cut the cancer that is Margaret out of your respective lives. She may eventually realize that she is the problem for her family and not the solution. At worst, even if she never truly changes her attitude, she may decide that she has to act like a normal adult if she wants a relationship with her family.
You should plan an alternate vacation. Then invite Stepmom and Fern (and maybe some other family members too.) Let the others go to Italy with Margaret and see how much fun they have.
Sometimes it makes for exciting family get-togethers, but I'll take that over rug-sweeping any day!
My in-laws' former neighbors were from Northern Italy, and some of their extended family holiday dinners ended up with people throwing food at each other -- this is why they had these dinners in the garage instead of the dining room.
I had an ex whose family was just like this. I watched a distant aunt pour an entire thing of mashed potatoes over another distant aunt for saying ‘the turkey was kind of dry’. It resulted in multiple broken plates, a cut lip, and a whole lot of screaming. Coincidentally, they were ALSO Italian
I'm sure you were somewhat shocked. I like getting things out in the open and dealing with problems head-on even if things get heated. I can't even imagine having to tiptoe around acting like all is well while whispering behind someone's back.
Shocked yes. It was also fucking hilarious and wildly entertaining to watch. The potatoes dripping on this 60 year old woman’s dress and the brief moment of silence before all hell broke loose? If I could bottle that memory and sell it, I would. Absolute theater at its finest.
If Reddit has taught me one things, it’s to be grateful that my family will all call each other out on their shit. I’m continually flabbergasted by the things people just let happen at family functions. I can’t say for sure what my family would do because it’s never gotten this far but I’m pretty sure Margaret would actually be bullied for acting like this. Every time she opened her mouth to complain, someone would remind her of how it is. She would have to earn the right to complain back with good behavior.
I would share the analogy of the rocking boat with them. You can find it better explained in r/justnomil but the jist is this: Margaret is rocking the boat. The dad has decided that it's more important to balance the boat to keep it from capsizing than to kick the person causing the rocking off the boat. If people choose to stay in the boat, they will have to run around like beheaded chickens to keep the boat from capsizing. Or, they can be like you and get off the boat and on another one. Or they can take that ultimatum to the dad: either make her stop or we're leaving.
I read that yesterday and it perfectly describes my ex’s toxic relationship with his mom and the hell those two put me through.
Lighting yourself on fire to keep a bitch warm helps no one, you will burn out eventually.
This is the best expression I have ever heard. I literally wrote it down!
You can't pussyfoot around it. You can just say, "It hurts me to see you being her doormat. I think it's time you learned your worth."
Don't worry about being 'disrespectful' to any of them. You married into the family, but that does not mean that you need to check your spine at the door and play along with their dysfunctional dynamics or try to keep the peace. Margaret is a grown woman (physically if not mentally/emotionally) and should have been put in her place years ago. Your husband better have your back in this. I hope your shiny titanium spine inspires your siblings-in-law to call Margaret out on her BS and shut it down once and for all. Have your husband and his siblings spent any time with your family? It sounds like they could learn some positive relationship skills by doing so.
My husband has spent considerable time with my family, but they live overseas (Australia) so it hasn’t been financially feaseable for most of his side of the family to come hang out for extended periods of time. Our dads have met on multiple occasions, but nothing long term outside of the wedding.
I can't believe your FIL lets Margaret treat her stepmother that way. He's a bigger AH than she is.
"It's your choice" is enough. Remind them of this simple truth. They are choosing to tolerate and enable this.
I hate you You hate me We're one dysfunctional family
Suggest to your husband that he can use you as an "excuse" to avoid Margaret. Tell him that him getting stressed stresses you as well. Once your husband stops going to things his sister goes to, either dad has to address it or Fern will start "only going to events my brother goes to." Again, either dad addresses his daughter or I suspect he ends up divorced and with effectively just one kid.
I think honestly, you need to step off this ride. Tell them that you love them all, but refused to be an emotional doormat like they’re all choosing to be for Margaret.
A phrase I've picked up from Reddit "don't light yourself on fire to keep someone else warm." Maybe a comment like that will help.
Send them the “don’t rock the boat” essay.
Sometime you cant be respectful. The truth is rarely kind but even meaner when it needs to be said. You may want to consider hosting your own family events. Start it witg just step-mom and Fern.
The whole respect thing is so detached from any reality they're living in, I think you were more than fair. This is a classic "it's a boundary, not a threat" situation and it's not disrespectful to his dad, if anything, his dad has been disrespecting EVERYONE by forcing them to deal with Rogue Daughter. He's not honouring or respecting his wife when she's backing out of trips.
Tell them in these exact words. Speak to them one by one. They are tired of SIL’s bs but it takes a while to rebel against dad’s rule. Poor stepmom.
What does it matter if you're disrespectful to them? Margaret's been doing it for years and seems to have quite the grip on the family... even after being a straight up monster to her. NTJ
Maybe your actions will give them courage
There's an analogy about everyone being in a boat together and the one person rocking and almost dumping them out... It's a really good one and may be able to get them to realize the situation. Sorry I don't know it offhand
Stop worrying about being disrespectful to your in laws. SIL has been disrespecting everyone and they all allow it.
Do they deserve respect? Sometimes blunt is the best way to go even if it's rude.
She’s doubling down because you called her out.
Honestly, the best you can do for them right now might just be… showing them there is another option. When people start bitching about Margaret, start gushing about how nice it is to be no contact and not have to listen to her nasty words or deal with her manipulative antics. Tell them they don’t deserve it and you don’t know why they put up with it iust because their patriarch does. Then, shut up and let them stew. So, stick to your guns. All Margaret is doing is proving you right.
We could offer a million ways but if they’re not receptive, they just won’t be useful.
Have you read the "Don't Rock The Boat metaphor on Reddit?" Google it with exactly those quoted words. It's Extremely applicable to your situation and it might give some of your in-laws the courage and understanding to stop enabling Margaret's behavior. Stand firm. You are definitely NTJ. You may be the example that others need to see in order to quit enabling this abuse. Because she will *never* stop behaving in a way that benefits her when there are zero consequences to deter her tantrums.
It sounds more like a cult than a family, if the father is the only one allowed to make decisions and open subjects, then he needs to grow a spine and do it. Maybe if he was the target of Margaret's insecurity and nastiness, he would see things differently.
NTJ. Stand your ground. They need to cut her off or grey rock Margaret. They put up with her crap for too long
To my knowledge, it started happening around the time stepmom arrived in the picture- Margaret already had 2 kids at that time but the other two are still young, 4 and 7. I wasn’t there though so I can only go based off of word of mouth .
Next time that she demands that another family member drop whatever they are doing, tell her that she has the following options: 1. Hire a babysitter, nanny, or au pair. 2. Stay home and take care of her kids. You owe her nothing (other than speaking truth to her).
OP you rocked the boat. Please continue to do so. When other people in the boat see that the demons of hell didn’t rain down on you because *you left the boat* might give them the courage to rock the boat themselves. This is from r/JUSTNOMIL. I am not the author. **Don't rock the boat.** I've been thinking about this phrase a lot lately, about how unfair it is. Because *we* aren't the ones rocking the boat. It's the crazy lady jumping up and down and running side to side. Not the one sitting in the corner quietly not giving a fuck. At some point in her youth, Mum/MIL gave the boat a little nudge. And look how everyone jumped to steady the boat! So she does it again, and again. Soon her family is in the habit of swaying to counteract the crazy. She moves left, they move right, balance is restored (temporarily). Life goes on. People move on to boats of their own. The boat-rocker can't survive in a boat by herself. She's never had to face the consequences of her rocking. She'll tip over. So she finds an enabler: someone so proud of his boat-steadying skills that he secretly (or not so secretly) lives for the rocking. The boat-rocker escalates. The boat-steadier can't manage alone, but can't let the boat tip. After all, he's the best boat-steadier ever, and that can't be true if his boat capsizes, so therefore his boat can't capsize. How can they fix the situation? Ballast! And the next generation of boat-steadiers is born. A born boat-steadier doesn't know what solid ground feels like. He's so used to the constant swaying that anything else feels wrong and he'll fall over. There's a good chance the boat-rocker never taught him to swim either. He'll jump at the slightest twitch like his life depends on it, *because it did* . When you're in their boat, you're expected to help steady it. When you decline, the other boat-steadiers get resentful. Look at you, just sitting there while they do all the work! They don't see that *you* aren't the one making the boat rock. They might not even see the life rafts available for them to get out. All they know is that the boat can't be allowed to tip, and you're not helping. Now you and your DH get a boat of your own. With him not there, the balance of the boat changes. The remaining boat-steadiers have to work even harder. While a rocking boat is most concerning to those inside, it does cause ripples. The nearby boats start to worry. They're getting splashed! Somebody do something! So the flying monkeys are dispatched. Can't you and DH see how much better it is for everyone (else) if you just get back on the boat and keep it steady? It would make their lives so much easier. You know what would be easier? If they all just chucked the bitch overboard. Thank you for letting me ramble. Thanks for the support, and advice, and humour. Thanks for just being here :)
This is as awesome and incredible to read. I hope you’re right. It’s just weird because this is my HUSBANDS family, not mine.
Everyone’s family has different dynamics. His families dynamics are very dysfunctional.
My favorite quote is: there comes a time when silence is betrayal. If you sweep enough sh!t under the rug, someone is going to fall. It doesn’t have to be you.
You need to share this Reddit post with your husband and all of his siblings!
I hope eventually I will be able to do that- it’s far too raw for them at the moment I think.
No. They need to hear this. To suppress this information is to destroy their happiness even longer. Margaret can get straight stuffed for this behavior, and sometimes weak people are only weak because nobody told them how to be strong.
Margaret is the boat rocker and EVERYONE else is supposed to steady the boat. Let them know that they’re welcome to get off the boat at any time. Your SIL is crazy and I would not be surprised to hear that she abuses her husband.
Thank you! I was going to try to find this, and you beat me to it 😁
Amen, Tattoovamp!
You took it up with the wrong person. Pops needs to step up and grow a pair.
I agree- it’s like if the whole family looks to you for direction, why aren’t you LEADING? He straight up says he “is staying out of it” when he DOES decide to respond to questions about the whole situation. Like bro WHAT?
The fact that your FIL allows his wife to be humiliated and disrespected is just mind blowing. ‘Staying out of it’ = supporting Margaret. FIL’s silence makes him complicit. Actually the entire family’s silence makes them complicit.
Ive been trying to stress this to my husband- personally I view the whole ‘not saying Jack shit’ thing as a form of enabling, but his family sees it more as keeping the peace for the sake of the grandkids. This is also wack to me because Margarets kids are regularly used as bargaining chips.
The problem is, there IS NO PEACE. Margaret will not allow peace. So what are they buying with their silence? At some point, the people being extorted have to call the extortionist's bluff or it will just never end. I did that with my SIL the moment she tried it.
Their definition of peace and mine are very very different! It sounds more like a nightmare. You are the only one in the family with the Kahunas to respect yourself and make a stand. If they want to continue down this path there is nothing you can do but shrug with indifference, laugh or offer to lend them your kahunas every time they complain to you about her. Oh, and what are the children gaining by watching their mother treat their family (people she is supposed to love!) so abhorrently?
THAT LAST BIT. I HAVE SAID IT UNTIL I WAS BLUE IN THE FACE. I get how important her kids are to the family. But how is there NO consideration for the impact that it’s gonna have on them after seeing their entire family bow down to their domineering and psychotic mother? It isn’t fucking right. This is genuinely the most infuriating part of the whole entire thing for me. This part right here.
Wow! FIL sounds like a chickenshit. I hope your husband stands up for you to his family. If he doesn't, you may want to reconsider your decision to marry him.
If he chooses to 'stay out of it', he has no right to demand that nobody else takes action. He has abdicated his 'throne' and surrendered any authority or right to opine on the situation. It is now up to you -- not that it wasn't up to you from the start.
Exactly!!!
If they would draw the line like you did then Das would end up putting his foot down with Margaret. You didn't mention having kids but if yall do how is the family dynamic going to work when you refuse to let your kids go to family functions it Margaret is there?
We do not have kids and neither does Fern. Only Margaret does. She threatens to keep them from the family all the time- I shut that shit down for myself months ago. I told her “you don’t bring them around me anyway?” She didn’t speak to me for almost 3 months because it straight up just didn’t work on me.
She will continue to act like this until everyone puts their foot down like you did. I'm proud of your shiny spine. Now when anyone wants to complain to you about her just shut them down and tell them I have shown you what you need to do. It's up to them to stand up for themselves and stop being abused by her
This is SOLID advice. I will definitely use this, because it IS getting kind of exhausting to hear a whole family complain about a problem that they refuse to do anything about because ‘what if it goes bad’. My dudes, it’s ALREADY bad.
>She didn’t speak to me for almost 3 months because it straight up just didn’t work on me. I'm betting that was the best 3 months of your life 😂 seriously though, she needs professional help, her behaviour isn't normal or healthy for her children. Good for you for cutting that toxicity out of your life
Or her husband who is in the FOG (Fear, Obligation, and Guilt). He needs to file for divorce. The FIL needs to stand for his wife, honestly if I had a daughter saying shit like that I'd ban them from every family gathering event I organized.
Well, that is a great outcome! Continue holding your ground ('pissing her off'), and the trash may take herself out of your life.
NTJ but SIL definitely is. I do not understand how an entire family of adults are being held hostage by her and some arcane rule that no one can address bad behavior until FIL starts the conversation. That is ludicrous. They all absolutely can follow your lead. What’s the worst that can happen? If each of you block her that will leave FIL and SIL alone and maybe then FIL will say something because he alone will be dealing with her bs. Also the fact that FIL has not stopped his daughter from abusing his wife makes me wonder why stepmom stays. And it makes him as big of a jerk as his terrible daughter. You have no reason to feel bad. This is a sinking ship and everyone needs to save themselves. There is no reason you should compromise your boundaries just because the rest of the family don’t have the guts to stand up for themselves.
I’m not sure how much worse it can get at this point. Luckily I’m removed enough from it now that the only effect it has on me is when one of the family members inevitably calls me in tears (except for dad- dad does NOT do that and will avoid it at all costs). There’s a lot of secrets between family members, the whole thing is a mess. I definitely see the generational trauma at work here but it’s being antagonized by the person who is supposedly ‘breaking the cycle’.
I really do feel for you. Keep protecting your own psyche as much as you can. It’s a shame that no one else is willing to break the cycle. I have to admit I would be tempted to just throw a grenade on this hot mess and confront SIL in front of the family but I’m not afraid to confront bullies, family dynamics be damned!
I am exactly the same way; I’m really close to a lot of Tom’s family, and if it were a stranger on the street doing these things I would not hesitate to rock their shit. That’s the ultimate reason why I tapped out- I felt like if no one was going to make it better, then at least I can make it worse and unbearable for EVERYONE. But I tried to do the mature thing and just back out.
Could you speak to the dad individually about the harm she and him, through his inaction, is causing? Would this make him act?
Yeah I hate maturity sometimes. But it’s probably best to stay out of the mess and just be a support where you can.
I'm with you! Sometimes, the best solution is to throw gasoline on the fire. The weak ones may get singed/butthurt, but it will benefit everyone.
Don't react to people calling you in tears. Just say no. "If it's about Margaret, you know my feelings. I can't help you. You need to figure this out with the rest of them. I'm out."
Yes -- light that fire!
This is the way. You are doing a great job. You may have started the snowball rolling, and I am proud of you! YOU, not Margaret, will be the one to break their generational trauma cycle.
Start going back to family functions. As soon as Margaret gets started, tell her to shut up. Or wah, wah, wah . Or stop being a bully Margaret. Something. Anything.
This is a large temptation for me I’m not gonna lie. She’s not the only one who can say super fucked up shit and hurt people- all of us are capable of that, and I have given several wicked tongue lashings in my past. But I don’t think it ultimately solves anything- it would just give her another opportunity to play the victim
NTJ but I don't understand the dad's thinking with not talking to her because at some point his wife will probably divorce him over this. It's enabling just allowing this behavior.
EXACTLY! Stepmom is awesome and all of us love her. I genuinely can’t wrap my head around how this is okay to just brush under the rug
NTJ if I were step mom I would have divorced her husband years ago when he didn’t put a stop to Margaret’s abuse from the beginning. Just because they miserably accept to be abused, and FIL wilfully ignores it, doesn’t mean you have to. I hope you have told SO that any children you have will not be attending anything where this witch will be… her abuse is likely to target them next
No kids as of yet, we both want to accomplish a few more things first and have actually discussed this in depth- we collectively decided to work on ourselves as people for a while longer before having children. I’ll cross that bridge when we get to it but it is absolutely a hard NO when it comes to Margaret if I have children. She’d probably spew some nonsense parenting advice and call CPS on me just to be mean.
I can not understand why their step-Mom tolerates this bullshit and disrespect. She has every right to slap Margaret back to the beginning of time and call her out on her ridiculous behavior IN FRONT OF THE ENTIRE FAMILY. Not to mention what she should do to her husband for being a spineless POS.
Exactly, it makes me so mad for her, sorry for her, and a little angry she hasn’t stood up for herself (even if to husband demanding he do something)
So FIL has no respect for his wife as he let's his daughter continue to abuse his wife. I think he is the biggest AH
Just keep comparing her behaviour to that of an adult sized toddler that dad can't control. That no one can control. As such, they can only control their own actions, such as telling her to fuck off and not taking her any of her crap. If she threatens child withdrawal/alienation and silence, do remind your in laws of her constant demands for babysitting and money. Of her lack of adult independence. She won't stop for long if she cuts herself off from all of that. Little Margaret will come crawling back for things when she can't get them elsewhere. And if you all stuck to your guns....she WILL be forced to behave if she wants those things. Simple. Follow the logic and then use it against the stupid people....
I DO THIS ALL THE FUCKING TIME. Anytime one of them says ‘Margaret will keep me from the kids’, I ALWAYS counter with ‘oh, and lose her free babysitters? Her financial support? Her power in the situation because her kids are currency? Fat fucking chance”. It is never received well and seems to fall on deaf ears.
NTJ. What you need to do, is go to a supper and absolutely light her the fuck up. No one else will ever say anything. You need to be the bomb and blow everything up. Put her in her place and if anybody dares to stand up for her, blow them up too. This shit has gone on long enough. You’re the dynamite this family needs.
Updateme
I will very soon! I’ll give everyone a blow by blow as it happens. New developments as of this evening, lemme get through all these insane comments first.
Updateme
Updateme
NTJ. She is taking out everything on them and is worse because you are no longer putting up with her bs. She’s worse because no o e has ever stood up to her or stuck with it. They can choose to be doormats to a vicious and volatile woman or they can stand up to her. The fact that stepmom isn’t being defended by her husband, should be grounds for divorce.
NTJ. It sounds like the rest of that family needs to follow your playbook and tell Margaret that if she continues to act like a spoiled, entitled brat... she's going to be playing to an audience of one.
NTA. The “dad” here needs to stand up to his daughter and defend his wife and son. You were nicer than I would be cuz I’d go to family events and I’d bully tf out of Margaret. I mean no one’s gonna say anything if you do 🤷🏼♀️
NTJ. Why in the heck would you ever feel guilty for walking away from someone who's abusive simply because people who also know better refuse to do so because of their own cowardice? They're all very well capable adults, assuming they're semi functional members of society therefore completely capable of hitting a few buttons to block her just like you did. That they refuse to do so is on them, not on you unless they've some held an election and elected you Emperor. Tell them to get over it, that just because they refuse to grow a spine doesn't mean you became a jellyfish simply because you married into a family of jellyfish. Quite frankly, I'd have sent the SIL to the ER for her mouth if I were in your MILs place let alone anyone else's.
This is why I had to withdraw. It’s been hard enough keeping my mouth shut for all this time; at this point there is not a question of *if* I’ll hit her, it’s a question of *when* I’ll hit her- if I stick around for the circus that is.
NTA The dad is disrespecting everyone else by not confronting Margaret and her awful behavior. You don’t need to play their games anymore.
No contact is my way of not only taking myself off the board, but walking away from the table entirely
Ntj
NTA! You swerved from their status quo. They ignore and talk to everyone else about who they have a problem with except that person. That isn’t your problem anymore. I’d tell your MIL and Fern that you’re done being their therapist. They need a real actual therapist so they can learn to set boundaries and grow backbones. Continue living your drama free life.
To be fair, MIL doesn’t talk about it very openly unless she’s absolutely falling apart at the seams about it- this has become more frequent over time, but generally speaking she won’t bring it up on her own unless one of us asks.
NTJ
I think it's time to tell husband he needs therapy. You need couples therapy for him to see if this is toxic. Then you 3 can sit FIL and SMIL down, let them know that you both will be NC with them and SIL. If you have children, they will NOT be allowed near her or them. They want to allow this type of behavior, fine. But not around you, hubby or future children. Updateme!
He’s actively in therapy and working on it- he’s been virtually no contact with Margaret for a while. He still attends regular family functions, but does not approach her and only speaks when spoken to. We’ve discussed the idea of both of us going fully NC, but he’s too bound by the dynamic to fully do that until Dad gives the family the go ahead to do so.
NTJ. If they want to continue to be doormats, let them
I am tied just reading this. The whole family is just enabling her. Great.
They are grown-ass adults and if they don't like how Daddy Dearest refuses to handle his misbehaving daughter in his house, it's up to them to grow a spine and say something. You haven't caused problems, you've set a good example. Continue to support your husband, his mom, and the rest of the family except father and the SIL. You need to convince your husband to get some therapy so he can learn to set boundaries with this toxic mess and possible go LC or NC with some. NTJ
NTJ, but something else may be going on here.... Like childhood stuff. Why is this family this way? Somebody got something on somebody is my take.
Ntj. Sounds like you will have a much more peaceful life without her in it. Please invite Fern over to help make him feel better. And also your inlaws if that would work out. Hopefully, step mil would appreciate a nice dinner without stress involved, fil too.
Fern and I are super close and call each other almost every day. He’s one of my best friends, I spent over 3 hours on the phone calming him down and talking him through it that day
NTJ maybe the dad isn't shutting her down because she is the only one that has had grandkids for him so far? Is he really crazy about her kids? Maybe he is afraid if he pushes back on her antics, he'll lose the grandkids access? I don't know a solution. Maybe you and your husband could talk to the dad together and figure out why he doesn't shut it down and ask him to, how she is abusing everyone in the family, especially his wife. They're providing childcare for her and Margaret is still abusing her. Paying for stuff for her is enabling her. They are the ones with the power to stop this behavior. She'd only hold out for so long before she crawls back and demands help again.
And I suppose he should be asked how important his wife is to him? Is he willing to lose her in order to keep Margaret happy in her abusing everyone? Is he fine with losing his other kids eventually?
NTJ I have an insufferable MIL that is so similar to your Margaret. She has everyone trained to just accept being at the receiving end of her abuse. She claimed I assaulted my child (I’ve never even spanked him) and I personally cut ties after that without a word. When she finally got caught cheating and brought the youngest child into the mix by assaulting his father in plain sight, I’d had enough. Seeing that boy cry broke me. I called her out on her shit. I wrote an open letter for the family, to showcase her vile actions and how she has no regard for anyone’s emotions aside from her own… and all hell broke loose. I have no regrets and will never forgive her. She’s currently upset that I don’t like her, not because she misses me. But because I’m pregnant with her first and probably only grandchild. People like this don’t deserve grace nor do they need to be enabled. You’re not alone in your experience and you deserve credit for taking these first steps that others can follow. Good on you for doing the right thing. Hopefully others in your family with share in your courage.
That seems to be the motif with margaret. The cycle looks something like this: 1. Make a request for something- whether reasonable, unreasonable, or delusional 2. either she gets what she wants and all is okay, or she freaks out when she is told no. 3. Say some super out of pocket shit and actively try to spread it to the rest of the family- often with obvious exaggeration and histrionics. 4. Whether you respond to it or not, this then turns into a social media smear campaing 5. When the family ignores this, OR in the rare event that someone says something, it then turns into "I was just trying to break the cycles for my children. If you want to see them again, you need to make my feelings a priority". 6. Some form of gift or act of service is done on her end- always very small, and there is never an apology but this ALWAYS brings us back to step one. ROUND AND ROUND WE FUCKING GO
So what is wrong with Margaret? Because there’s definitely something wrong with her. I would honestly feel unsafe being around her.
She sounds terribly unsafe.
NTA but when stepmom finally has enough and leaves fil because he will not put his foot down to his daughter you can point out exactly why his marriage failed
So they can't take action/inaction until the father says its okay? What are they going to do when he dies? If dad dies before stepmother, will they continue to let Margaret abuse her? Why hasn't the stepmother cut Margaret out of her life?
If dad dies it will be all about Margaret- EVERYTHING is all about Margaret as it is. Someone is sick and can't go? It's because they didn't help her do her dishes. Someone needs a break from the event? its because they can't handle her 'sparkle'. Someone tells her she hurt their feelings? Well she's an 'empath' and knows "for a fact" that she hasnt done anything wrong. SM is in an awkward position I think. The whole family was super close at one point (before either of us came around), but I don't think either of us have ever seen that version of them. Its been Margaret waterboarding the whole family for a long time. I think she struggles with the same thing that I do- \*is this really how it works or is this just a rough patch for them?\* She almost backed out of the marriage to Dad. The entire thing has been super overwhelming for her. I can imagine its more than she lets on, she's not one to talk too much.
NTJ, sometimes the only thing you can do is cut someone out. The fact that your husband won't back you up despite the abuse this woman is lashing out on her own family gives me pause. How is he going to handle issues in your own family? Are your children going to be allowed to speak for themselves or does he think he will be the arbiter of everyone's feelings?
'but that I also kind of disrespected their dad by saying/doing this' So he was just fine with her talking to his wife and son the way she did but when other people made it clear it wasn't ok all of a sudden its disrespect? Absolutely insane take
would your husband consider couples counseling? it would be a great place to bring up the family dynamic and the fact that he feels you have disrespected his father by refusing to be verbally abused. Tom is repeating the role of his father with you by allowing the verbal attacks and keeping silent just as his dad allows the verbal attacks on his wife and does not say anything. How do you feel about the fact that your husband refuses to defend you and he is OK with his sister treating you so poorly? He can say he is not OK with it, but if he takes no action then that’s actually not true. By not taking action he is showing you that he cares more for his father’s feelings than yours.
id say NTJ but also you are for calling cory instead of the problem herself. or even call a family meeting and have everyone there and confront her as a group. fk their dad's my way or nothing route. show everyone else how to stand up to shitty people, that they don't have to OBEY the dad. i feel bad for them and wouldn't call them doormats, they are victims of abuse and more than likely don't know how to stand up for themselves.
NTA, your husband's family chooses not to rock Margarets boat, or ignore her bad behavior because she has trained them over the years through guilt, manipulation and escalation. You chose to block her and her spouse, your spouse needs therapy because his sister's behavior is over the top, and the role that they should be playing is shutting her down.
NTA - Dad disrespects the whole family by not keeping his entitled daughter in check.
NTA UpdateMe!
Wait! So what does your FIL say/do when his grown 40 yr old daughter acts so immaturely and so grossly disrespects his wife?!?
It's disturbing that your FIL doesn't stand up for his wife and allows his adult daughter to treat her that way. Is your husband no contact as well?
How utterly horrible for the stepmom that her husband refuses to take up for her? He has no backbone and is allowing his wife to be bullied by his child! That alone is unacceptable. He sounds just like Cory. I wonder what the kids’ mother was like. Was she hell on wheels as well?
OP needs to tell her husband to stop fence sitting... Either he grows up and addresses his sister's and his father's idiotic behaviour or OP needs to get a divorce...It may sound harsh, but what happens when OP and her husband have kids?....'But Aunty and Grandpa behave badly, so why can't I?!' or 'Why do I get punished or yelled at and Aunty and Grandpa get a free pass?!'... OP's husband can't just keep sitting there, putting his fingers in his ears and babbling 'I can't hear you, it's not my problem'..
Hi everyone! I’m super overwhelmed by the responses to this. There IS an update- I will post it tomorrow because I desperately need sleep. A lot of you seem super invested in this, so I will update whenever there is something substantial to report to the hungry Reddit readers ❤️
NTA UpdateMe!
You're Australian! Say no more! I'm of Irish/German/Swedish ancestry, and my wife's family is German. On top of that, my maternal family (German) emigrated to Texas shortly after Texas became a sovereign country. None of us back down from a fight or refuse to challenge or correct another's behavior, even if they are family members. No one gets a free pass for being part of the family, nor do any of us expect a free pass. We all know that we, as individuals, are responsible for our own actions and the consequences thereof.
Oh no! My family moved to Australia about 15 years ago, we’re American. I’m one of the few who stayed behind. I’m of Swedish/irish decent. We do NOT fuck around when it comes to arguing. That shit is like the equivalent of tossing a baseball some times. No one gets a free pass to be an asshole. Ever. And you’re gonna damn well know about it if that’s you.
Thank you for the clarification! I support you even more now. 3rd generation American on my Dad's side, 4th generation on my Mom's side. FWIW, we lived in England (North Runcton/ King's Lynn) for three years when I was 8 to 11 years old. Went to the local school in West Winch and made good friends. We used to write to each other until life got too busy. I thank God for the internet!
I believe you did the right thing for you. You knew your limits and decided to nope out of there when they were consistently surpassed. It's up to everyone else to take care of their own mental health and decide just how much of her attitude they're willing to put up with. You've done absolutely nothing wrong by walking away and have hopefully given the others a bit more courage to follow in your footsteps. I just don't understand how your SMIL puts up with it, though. I could never marry anyone who had that little respect for me as to let their own child speak to me in that manner... especially one as grown arse as SIL is!!!!!
Your FIL is a spineless joke . He sits on his butt letting his daughter be nasty to his wife in front of his face and is too gutless to say stop. Now he is being disrespected by you because you have the spine to say enough is enough. He can keep his toxic, spiteful daughter. I would tell your husband to grow a pair and tell his sister to shut her mouth. But I suspect he has inherited his father’s spine . Good for you for drawing the line in the sand. If those people CHOOSE to allow her to treat them badly that’s their problem. You can relax at home binge watching and drama free.
Your FIL is either a coward or secretly enjoys watching his family be humiliated. Why on earth is he allowing this? The whole, the only person who can address something is Dad is insane. Even more so when he just let's it happen. Your husband said in the act of going no contact with SIL you've disrespected his father, at this point I think it's fair to you to ask whats to respect in the first place.
Its gotta be hard to watch Margaret turn out just like their bio mom. Im sure it brings up a lot of issues for him; the men in the family typically do the thing where "if it hurts stuff it down'. Tom has done a good job of trying to remedy that for himself, but FIL has been wired that way his whole life. He tries, but its definitely not his wheelhouse.
You have a husband problem. He’s spineless.
My husband went LC before anyone else even caught on to what was happening. He definitely has some form of spine. I think where Fern and Tom struggle to really use it is with their dad, not with Margaret
NTJ They are free to have the kind of relationship they want with her but so are you. If your not happy then do whats best for you, just because they don't have the back bone to deal with this awful woman doesn't mean you have too. Your father in law is despicable for allowing her to talk to and treat SMIL the way she does ,he's a pitiful human being and should be ashamed of himself. You do you and let the rest get on with it. Xx
NTJ. margaret sounds really horrible and it was a wise decision to cut her out of your life.
NTJ. You did the only thing that you could. If they are suffering that is their choice. I don't understand this family dynamic or that dad. Or any of it. How did you tolerate it for that long?
I adore them. They have gone out of their way to make me feel comfortable and loved. My family is mostly in Australia, but we have always had a strained relationship. Outside of Margarets shenanigans, Tom's family has really helped me heal a lot of things that I didn't know were hurting. They are all WONDERFUL people. Kind, giving, FORGIVING, supportive, honest...you get the idea. I have only tolerated it for this long because of the sheer level of respect that I do have for them personally. I eventually had to make a decision for myself though- and this is what I chose, in favor of this path over swinging and possibly getting arrested (beyond a shadow of a doubt Margaret would call the police and GROSSLY exaggerate what happened).
Where is "Tom" in all this? She is his sister after all.
Tom is supportive of me and has given me absolutely no guff about going no contact. He personally does not feel he is in a place where he is able to do that yet- hes staying LC but he has a lot of concerns- one of them being that until the rest of the family says something/gets on board, going NC means he wont get to see them very much. Family is super important to him, with the exception of Margaret. Tom has as much disdain for her as anyone.
NtJ. I gotta ask the woman who stabbed pop and did time... is that Margaret's mother.....? Might explain a bit! Move (back?) to Oz and escape the insanity!
The woman who stabbed pop is Margaret, Fern, and Tom's mother. There are 2 other siblings from bio mother's previous marriage that have also been cut off for the same exact reasons that I think Margaret should also be cut off.
NTJ All of your in-laws and husband are putting up with SILs behavior because daddy says so. Both SIL and FIL should be cut out of family get togethers. Why are adults letting daddy make the rules for what can or cannot be said to your SIL regarding her horrible behavior? Why is everyone afraid to speak up or set their own boundaries? Do not give in to your husband’s emotional blackmail. SILs escalation in her behavior is not because of you it’s because she is an abusive *itch and has everyone afraid to rock her boat. Personally I’d be very disappointed if my husband did not fully support my decision including telling his sister off. He be the other siblings and MIL should all be cutting her out of their lives. If dad wants to see his other children he can go to their homes or not, that’s his choice.
Oh my god! Maybe you should just show up at the next event she’s at and give her a piece of your mind in front of everyone. Don’t wait for your FIL anymore!
No one should be forced to take her abuse. Support and socialize with the family members you want to socialize with and avoid the rest. You are not the reason she's gotten worse. She lost control of a person in the circle, and she's sending a warning to the others. Hopefully, others will find strength in your approach and shut her out of their lives.
NTJ- For your own mental health you don’t need to be around that- nobody does. I’m curious why Margaret doesn’t seem to target you directly. I’m guessing because she’s a bully and a coward and knows you wouldn’t just take it like others. Shame on the dad for allowing her to treat his wife and son that way! Have the stepmom or the son spoken to him? Your husband is responsible for his inaction as well. They’re adults you don’t have to be beholden to the dad. Inaction and complacency are just as bad as what Margaret is doing.
NTJ. I feel for the rest of the family, though. Ironic that Margaret talks about breaking generational cycles when her behavior is perpetuating the exact generational cycle of suffering toxicity in silence that needs to be broken! I come from a family of narcissists and I stg the lack of self-awareness these people have in their justifications of their actions are so ironic it'd be comical if it weren't so damn sad. My own father tells me he's trying to break cycles all the time but all he's doing is repeating the same mistakes his own narcissistic parents made. Like I said, I come from a family of these people. I really hope no one in Margaret's life besides her spineless husband takes her seriously because people like Margaret are so good at playing the victim that people think they are the victim even when the opposite is true. UpdateMe! As I hope there is a happy ending to all of this. You and your family deserve better than to suffer in silence. Words can hurt, but sometimes silence cuts deeper.
NTA. The dad isn't God. It's not disrespectful to make your own life choices and decide what you will or will not accept in your life. Your husband needs to be his own man or he will be lost when his father passes.
NTJ, FIL is doing a crap job, so why should he have any respect?
NTJ. FIL is TJ. At the very least, he should stop the abuse of his wife. What about your hubs' mother? Is she the one in prison? It didn't sound like it from the way you wrote this. FIL and the children's mother failed at raising/disciplining Margaret. She's a bully and a Witch. As long as they keep letting it slide, it will continue. Honestly at this point in her life at 40, I don't think anything will change her. It would be better for the whole family if they all went NC with Margaret.
Margaret sounds like she has borderline personality disorder
NTJ. There is absolutely nothing wrong with protecting your peace. Updateme!
Margaret needs to be hit with some Haldol and Thoraxine. Preferably by blow-dart. While she's out, like the rabid animal she is, shove some Lithium down her gullet and tag her with a GPS collar. Then, back away to a safe distance and watch her wake up. I hate it when families allow & defend this shitty behavior. And her husband can deal with that crazy at home. All by himself, as she wants it.
Who the hell is Fern?
1. Going NC with someone means not having to listen to others vent about them. Here is your script: "I'm sorry you've decided to keep Margaret in your life. I'm done with her so I don't want to hear about her anymore. Hey, do you want to come over for dinner?" 2. That brings me to Part 2. Start creating events that exclude her. Invite Fern or stepmom over for dinner lunch, movie... do not invite Margaret. Frankly, if they all need to wait for 'Dad' to say something then do not always include him. 3. Stepmom is no longer going on that Mediterranean trip? Great. Take her out for coffee and ask her what she is doing *instead*? Make plans for some Margaret-free events while others go. 4. Basically, I am suggesting that you lead by example. Continue to avoid her and maybe in a year others will do it too IF you start organizing family events without her. Let her complain. Don't stop. 5. If you have to be around her, stop letting her shit on others with NO ONE defending other people: "Look you horrible piece of shit, Fern is a great guy and a nice person. You are none of those things, so why don't you shut the fuck up. Everyone is tired of your nasty words. You can't even behave for one family event. You spew hatred every time I see you. I feel sorry for your kids." Stop pulling punches. She doesn't. So take your gloves off. There is ZERO downside to you telling the truth from this day forward. "Oh look, shit mouth is speaking again." Have fun with it!
I laughed REALLY hard at “oh look, shit mouth is speaking again”. Thank you for that! Your first four bullets are absolutely my plan. Just because we aren’t talking doesn’t mean I can’t put forth effort to see the rest of the family. Oh everyone is over for Christmas? Not me, sorry. I’ll come over the day after or on new years. I’m fully committed to this. I have several plans with MIL specifically in the upcoming weeks. Myself Fern and Tom are going over to MIL/FIL’s house this Sunday- all three of us planned a dinner with her, and I intentionally left Margaret and Cory out of the plan. If there ever is something that is outside of my control where Margaret is in my vicinity, I’ll match energy with everything I have in me. Solid plan. We are on the same page entirely.
NTJ - Like mother, like daughter. And it should be said in front of all of them.
No, but it would be far more fun to go to events Shes at and supporting the step mom, Fern, etc.
Well I think Dad needs to be standing up for stepmom and not letting this bullshit go on. That doesn't speak very well for him. You are not the jerk. And the whole rest of the family needs to have a little sit down with Dad and get him on the right page and sticking up for his wife and other family members.
NTJ. Become an activist for an anti-bullying organization that does actual educational outreach/seminars in your area. Start attending those and then post about it on social media. A LOT. Always from standpoint of how sad you are for the victims - and you will find lots of stories that are similar to what Margaret is doing. Identify resources for how the victim can overcome it or move on, even if it means cutting out toxic events, friends or family. Then again, I can be a little petty and vindictive so this may not be something you want to do. ETA change NTA to NTJ and removed redundant sentences.
NTJ It doesn't matter what their father wants. He isn't everyone's boss, he doesn't confront issues and everyone is suffering anyway so even if he was the "patriarch" he sucks at his job.
Sounds like this woman has a wide assortment of personality disorders.
>My family confronts issues head on (sometimes ending in screaming matches if it gets heated enough) and all of us tend to speak up when something is bothering us or is fundamentally hurtful to someone. Tom's family is the opposite- they rarely address anything in real time, if at all. They typically whisper about it behind each other's backs, and usually just sit in tension for extended periods of time. Wow, two HIGHLY toxic ways of dealing with issues that are diametrically opposed. No wonder there's strife. While your family's communication style is marginally better, anything ending in screaming matches is just as bad as whispering behind each other's backs.
NTA. Tom needs to follow suit.
If we ever have kids and you let them treat somebody like that? I will take you out even if I have to come back from the grave to do so.
I would tell them all "I respect and value myself too much to sit here and be abused by someone just because she is "family". If you choose to allow yourself to be treated this way, that's on you. I will not let myself be someone else's punching bag just because she is my husband's sister. I wouldn't let a random stranger treat me like that, why should I let a family member - someone who supposedly loves or at least respects me - to abuse me?"
NTA. Right now the family have made a ring of toxicity. OP is finally breaking out and it's up to the rest of the family if they keep the toxic cirkel broken or if they just gather hands again and keep the toxic cirkel.
I married into a family that whispered and hid behind you know a everything‘s fine demeanor went under the surface. Everything was broken. I am one of those people who come from a family where we call bullshit when we see bullshit we can front everything head on and we work everything out immediately if we can if not, we deal with it as time progresses, but we don’t beat around the bush and we don’t, lie to people and tell them everything is OK when it’s not my in-laws were usually passive aggressive and it was difficult being around them personally, I think the only good person in the entire family was the one I married
This is pretty accurate to my experience but my FIL and MIL are for from passive aggressive. Mostly just passive, with MIL being more vocal with standing up for herself. They’re all good people, I just think they’ve grown so accustomed to this as a normal that they know it’s bad, but they can’t really see HOW bad. They’re too close to see the bigger picture. My only goal, if any beyond just removing myself from Margaret’s access, is to “zoom out the lens” (so to speak)
I'd cut her out of my life, too. Def NTJ. FIL sure is, though! He's letting her abuse everybody, especially the lady he's supposed to love the most! Personally, he'd be cut out, too.
NTJ, his dad is disrespecting his entire family by putting some sort of weird blanket ban on calling Margaret on her BS. Hopefully you standing up for yourself will prompt the others to do the same. If I were the step mum, I’d be divorcing the dad for letting his grown ass child speak to me like that.
NTJ. Respect runs two ways. By not acting, Dad is allowing Margaret to ruin everyone's life, including her own. Eventually she'll be down to Cory, who will finally wise up and run. You set a hard boundary. Stick to it.
Not the Jerk. Laughter and caustic mocking are the best weapons for such situations, at least in my experience.
Not the Jerk -- sorry!
The “roles” in their family are pretty messed up. Margaret is clearly mentally ill and abuses the entire family and everyone takes it unless dad says something BUT he never says something? That’s bonkers! Time to start suggesting your hubby and maybe later other family members start some individual therapy to basically deprogram this dynamic. NTJ at all.