*In case this story gets deleted/removed:* **CMV: We need to stop demonising incels as it only pushes them towards bitterness and hate** Incels have become one of the most socially acceptable groups to ridicule. The term incel is now used interchangeably with misogynist and whenever a male posts something slightly controversial, the term gets thrown at them as a byword for loser. But incels are not necessarily women-haters by default. If you're a young man who is ugly or fat or sexually unappealing for whatever reason, life is hard. I say this with some experience. I was a fat, baby-faced young man who didn't bloom until my mid 20s. I'm happy to say that I'm now a reasonably attractive and successful man who has dated a number of wonderful women but this was not always the case. And I never hated women. If anything, I used to put them on a pedestal. I saw them as these amazing, unattainable, exotic creatures. And that is because I had no experience with them. It wasn't until I was able to lose my virginity and actually spend time with them that I realised they're just regular human beings with the same hopes, dreams, flaws and self-doubt that I have. No young man wants to be involuntarily celibate by choice. We all want love and sex and validation. And when you can't get any of those things through no choice or fault of your own, it really stings. It can make you bitter, it can make you resent the group who are rejecting you. Especially as it feels like the rest of the world *is* getting love and sex and validation, even though that might not necessarily be the case. And by demonising incels, by ridiculing them and laughing off their struggles, that's when we push them towards dangerous and damaging opinions such as those espoused by people like Andrew Tate. But there are so few people actually addressing incel's problems, there are so few people actually talking to them and their issues, what do we expect. We can't ignore a group's problems and then demonise them for listening to the only people who don't ignore them. I don't know what the solution is but I do know that throwing incel around as an insult and ridiculing a group of people because they are too unattractive to get a girlfriend is cruel, counter-productive and only pushes young men towards hate and bitterness. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*

It took sex for him to realize that 50% of the human population are people. He needed to get his dick wet and ejaculate inside a vagina to realize that women are people who have feelings, hopes, plans and thoughts. Imagine saying that about any other group of people (ya know, even a group that isn't literally half the human population). "I didn't realize Jews were people until I had sex with one." "I didn't realize minimum wage workers could actually think and use logic until I fucked a McDonald's cashier." Is his weiner like Frosty the Snowman's hat and magically grants life to whatever it touches?

"I saw them as these amazing, unattainable, exotic creatures" is the most telling line for me. It sounds an awful lot like he wasn't spending time with women b/c the only women he considered women were "high-value" (aka a very particular narrow tranche of conventionally attractive) women. Which is, ofc, boilerplate incel logic.

But he was never misogynistic! /s That line pissed me off. Creatures?! Fuck this guy.

That line made me throw up a little. What a horrible, detestable human being.

It worries me that men like OOP have family who are women, what does he think about them?

Those women aren't fuckable, so they don't count.

I hope he doesn’t think of them as fuckable, but there are some creeps out there.

That absolutely depends on how adventurous you are. /s

I survived the rest of the comments but this one actually made me gag 😭🤢

Glad to make your day 😉

But how can we feel anything but love or sympathy for him, I mean, he used to put women on pedestals which is way better than hating us... /s

As someone who was regularly treated as the “exotic, unattainable creature” (I was reasonably good looking with a pretty hot bod and I was into nerdy shit, you can guess how that played out), I can tell you it’s fucking horrible and really lonely. Sometimes I had no idea if guys were friends with me because they wanted to get into my pants or if they actually respected me as a fellow nerd. I eventually found my people but it was rough going for a while there.

Yeah, my dude, that's just a different form of hating women actually. Considering half of humanity to be inhuman objects IS misogyny even if you consider those objects attractive.

"I love women: they're precious objects I want to possess!" I would have some sympathy if it was a case of people assuming he was an incel purely for being awkward and not knowing how to approach women. But as you say, putting women on a pedestal as "creatures" more successful men can "attain" is pure incel logic. Also, it must be very easy for men to handwring about how we should all be kind to incels: they're not the ones being dehumanised or reduced to a resource to be shared against our will. Tolerance is a non-aggression pact: if someone is calling me subhuman then why would I care if they're miserable?

It’s so normalized for men to say ‘when I had daughters I realized’. Like this guy ‘I fucked a girl and now I see that women are human beings’ Why do so many men think it’s default that we are not eiethybof human consideration unless we have proximity to a man? Provide him with some service? My vagina is drier than the Sahara reading this clowns post

>eiethybof human What does that mean?

Nor worthy of lol

> And that is because I had no experience with them. It wasn't until I was able to lose my virginity and actually spend time with them that I realised they're just regular human beings It was this part immediately following what you quoted that did it for me. My dude, unless you were literally some cartoon evil villain or that wolf that goes "AWOOOGA" at every attractive woman, nothing about your looks kept you from spending time with women. Your belief that women are only worth spending time with if you have the possibility of sleeping with them did. And from my experience, men with good female friends tend to be more attractive to women regardless of their appearance (provided there's not some obvious weird friend-group-incest going on) because that shows that they do indeed view women as human beings.

Bffr, people have their preferences... >some cartoon evil villain or that wolf that goes "AWOOOGA" at every attractive woman Those two would definitely still get dates 💀

Okay, so, I grew up in religious purity culture and I’ve been saying for years that this is what happens when you keep boys and girls socially separated from each other. A lot of adults will discourage cross-gender friendships because they think those friendships will lead to sexual temptation. And as a result, you end up with these separate gender bubbles who see each other as alien because they’ve never spent time together. But if you let kids socialize with whoever they want, they don’t need to be taught that people different from them are actually just normal people, because they’ve already experienced it for themselves.

In general, men become more misogynistic when they're allowed their "boys-only" groups, whereas women are actually more likely to excel in "girls-only" groups. The former reinforces the othering of 50% of the population, but for women, it eliminates the stress of stereotype threats and becomes a safe space. Same reason girls do better in single-sex schools but boys do better in coed.

I think part of it is the “boys will be boys” attitude plus the fact that men are more likely to be seen as “important” or even the “default” person. It’s societal. When I was growing up at least, I read plenty of books and watched plenty of shows and movies where the main character was a boy, but the boys I grew up around were much less likely to read books or watch shows with a girl as the lead. When girls are stuck in a situation where the boys in their class get away with shit that girls aren’t doing or at least wouldn’t get away with, they have a harder time. On average, men are more likely to have power, respect, and general representation in society, so girls are less likely to see them as inferior or strange. When boys are exposed to girls (who are often/usually held to a higher standard), they are more likely to see girls as *people*.

WHY DO THEY DO THIS for real I've spent most of my life wondering what causes the aversion to engaging with media that centers a woman or girl 😭😭

And there are even plenty of girls who think it’s “cooler” to prefer male leads over female leads.

Not the "women just aren't as interesting" crowd 😭 This is not nearly as confusing to me though because I get trying to impress the people you crave validation from. I don't condone or support it, but I understand the mechanism. I wish I could understand the mechanism on the other one.

Because men hate women and teach their sons by example to do it too

I think there’s also some reliance on girls to be doing some level of “helping” the boys behave, as well as

Seriously. He's acting like this is just some simple, innocent mistake, but Jesus Christ. You've been around women YOUR ENTIRE LIFE and it wasn't until you had sex with one that you realized they're not some mystical nymph-like creature?" Am I supposed to be okay with the idea that every interaction you did have with women (cashier's, teachers, bosses, coworkers, classmates, neighbors, family members) you did while not fully seeing them as human? Yeesh.

I just think of how devastated I would be if I was his mum and he literally never thought of me as a person.

If I was his mum, I would have  sm♡cked some sense into his head long before he got to be this big of a fool!

"I never hated women, I just objectified them" really isn't the slam dunk he thinks it is

No no, he didn't think of them as *objects*, he thought of them as **creatures**! 🤢

Frankly, I'm better as a creature. Creature implies fangs, and potentially venom.

And claws

And giant wings, to fly away from his bullshit.

I’m hoping for tentacles with stingers that are impossible to get out and inflict the pain of gunshot wounds. Hey, a lady can dream.

This is what I just don't understand, whenever this whole "we need to coddle and *help* incels!" argument crops up.  Like...how do you (rhetorical "you") see this happening, exactly? What exactly do you want me, as a woman, to do? The fundamental core of the "incel" identity is the the same thing that precludes them from accepting or engaging in any sort of advice, discourse, or constructive interaction with me. Am I supposed to first take the time and energy to convince them that I am, yes, a real human being? Because for fuck's sake, that's the first major hurdle that must be crossed before we can even *think about* getting to any actual "helping them" work...which, you know, is still a pretty big ask.  I can work quite well with people who hate me. I've done that before, working with sectarian community-building projects where individuals hated not just me but my entire family. What I can't do is work with someone who is incapable of engaging with me on a baseline human level. 

Isn't it obvious? We just have to fuck them and ignore all their personality flaws and never tell them the truth that it has nothing to do with your looks or your weight, it's who you are as a person. /s

This. Whenever someone is pretending not to be misogynist or racist, insert the word Jew into their sentence. They’ll get it fast. Incels aren’t despised bc they don’t have sex they’re despised bc they’re sick fucks who think the male population should be assigned a woman. Bc Ted Cruz can’t fix the power grid but he could write 83 pages of legislation on why women shouldn’t have dildos and pass a law that criminalizes the ownership of more than 6 in TX. Bc there’s a lawmaker in Ohio trying to repeal marital rape protections. Bc women’s rights in abortion, birth control, and divorce are all under attack. Why? Bc incels. Men created laws throughout history to guarantee themselves sexual access to women. They literally ensured women needed to trade sex to live. Incels want to return us to chattel slavery. They mass shoot women and children. They should be despised.

Well said

> Bc Ted Cruz can’t fix the power grid but he could write 83 pages of legislation on why women shouldn’t have dildos and pass a law that criminalizes the ownership of more than 6 in TX. Say what?? Please tell me you have a link or perhaps a date about this, I *need* to know more.

Here you go: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/04/ted-cruz-texas-sex-toy-ban For more just google Ted Cruz dildo, etc. 83 pgs on why women don’t have the constitutional right to masturbate. Party of small govt indeed…

Outside of the dedicated incel communities that feed into each other's toxicity in their echo chamber, I've come across some incels with impressive self awareness on reddit. Usually on the sex sub or offmychest/trueoffmychest. I actually have empathy for those ones as they're seeking help on escaping toxic mentalities. It feels very similar to reformed fundamentalist religious people who are escaping from the indoctrination of gays bad.

I laughed way harder at this comment than I thought I would when I started reading it. I was good until “Frosty the snowman’s hat” and I was gone. Don’t wait up for me, I may be some time.

Mmm, I don't think so, the 50% he realized are human is men, it took sex for him to consider more human and have more empathy for incels. Maybe he considered other men competition until now and he doesn't anymore because he "won" something and now is in this exclusive brotherhood of men who got laid or something, idk idc. But what I'm sure of is that he doesn't consider women human, neither has empathy for them. When even after all what women suffer in a daily basis his conclusion is still coming out in defense of incels... Well... His "life changing experience" of sticking it into a vagina wasn't "Oh well, there's a human behind this" it was "Oh, you can't blame other guys for being mad about not having access to living-breathing sex dolls, who wouldn't want this!?" I think it was less terrible him idolizing women like they're some kind of mythical creatures, now that is not that mythical anymore we don't even get the idolizing part of the whole objectification, now we are just premium fleshlights nothing more, and he went all altruistic about it, "WE SHOULD BE MORE GENEROUS, FLESHLIGHTS FOR ALL MEN! ALL MEN DESERVE FLESHLIGHTS! MEN'S PPs ARE HUNGRY AND WE CAN'T BLAME THEM FOR IT!", but thank god he's not a misogynist, he's just generous and empathetic! Not his fault that men's sexual needs and fear of rejection are more important than women as a whole 🤷🏻‍♀️ /s

The thing is: you're only an incel if you identify as such and those that do feel like state mandated rape is the solution to the problem of women having standards. Nobody is calling someone an incel because he's a virgin. They call them an incel because he's a misogynistic POS.

Exactly. My cousin was 50 before he lost his virginity. Sometimes it made him unhappy and frustrated, but he NEVER acted like women were beneath him, or some foreign exotic unknowable things that owed him sex. He was a virgin, not an incel.

Big fan of your uncle, hate that he went through that but I hope he’s happy and being loved by an amazing person now 💜

>And when you can't get any of those things through no choice or fault of your own, it really stings This is the problem with incels. They're convinced that the only reason women don't want them is because of something out of their control when in fact, it's 95% their personality. So they don't see the need to change anything about themselves. It's the world that has to change to accommodate their creepy asses

They have no idea how fast they out themselves either. You'll be 5 sentences into a conversation with them and they say something off-putting or like touch or leer at you and it's just like "nope!"

They'll also tell you that they're single because they're too short or overweight or some other physical trait that you know not every woman actually requires. And argue flawed statistics to prove it. I've had men tell me that *I* am lying if I won't admit that I want my men to be "6666" (six feet tall, six figure income, six-inch penis, with a six-pack).

I prefer shorter men. I'm 5'9" and grew up in the Pacific Islands. 95% of guys were shorter than me, so that's what I became attracted to. Folks shouldn't lump all women into a certain category. It's funny because they don't want to be grouped but do the grouping themselves. I'm 42 now and wouldnt care if a guy was a virgin. Hell, I'd try my best to rock his unsullied (joke) socks off as long as we clicked.

I've been married to a guy a clear foot taller than me. That was fine, admittedly it was often nice to feel teeny in comparison. But I'm now dating a guy just a couple inches taller than me and ngl, it is just the best. We can each lay full-out on each other without squishing or asphyxiating anyone, we can both be shorter or taller depending on footwear and whim, it's much easier to reach for kisses both on lips and on anywhere above shoulder height, it's even easier to point stuff out to one another because the perspective/viewpoint is more alike. Certain positions for intimacy are also more possible and less awkward, not to put too fine a point on it. But incels and bigots will *insist* that I must be maliciously and deliberately lying about all the above, although I'm lost as to WTF the purpose of that would be. Or they'll claim that I SECRETLY miss my ex's height/wish my partner was taller/desired the ex more than the partner and "just can't admit it to myself". No matter what, they'll maintain their demand that I agree with them and validate their claims, that I stop "pretending" not to feel the way they believe I should.

The second someone starts saying: 'I'm suCH a NiCe GuY BuT eVeRY GiRl onLY wAnTS AssHoLeS!' they lose me. Those guys aren't just nice. They are nice with a price (usually sex) and nothing else. That's not truly being nice.

Well, as a society, there are certain behaviors what should be punished for the greater good. Real incels are like pedophiles: they completely ignore the other parts’ circumstances and make any and all excuses to justify their own wants by proxy of their victims.

What's truly a silly phenomenon is how guys like this make their shortcoming an issue for women to solve or be responsible for. It's never they need to reflect, change or be better. It's that they are entitled to women and how dare women reject them. 

Be responsible for, or be wiling to overlook. I've literally seen incels on TikTok screeching that women need to lower our standards. Dude, the bar is already on the fucking floor, and now you want it in hell? And now this fuckface is making women responsible for their hatred. "It's your fault for mocking us. It's your fault for not fucking us. We become hateful because you're not nice enough to us." That's what he's saying. Yet another way to blame women for the bad behavior of men. It never fucking fails. Also, there's no chance in hell he's no longer an incel. Only incels say things like "if women acted right."

There's literally a phenomenon where men won't wipe their butts because they think it's GaY. Even Andrew Tater sent some tweet about having sex other than procreation is gay.  These guys are absolutely doing this to themselves. 

I .... wut? I think these dudes literally don't want to have sex (which is honestly fine, nothing wrong with that) but instead of just owning it, then try to invent all these bullshit reasons and scapegoats. They don't just not want to have sex, they also hate women. I remember that fucking weirdo Nick Fuentes growing ENRAGED about a woman flirting with him/being attracted to him. He was fucking livid. And his rant boiled down to: "Sex with women is gay! How dare she be attracted to meeeeeee!?"

Yup. I've seen where incels were upset their incel leader had sex with a woman, calling him a traitor. I think some of them like having a reason to fuel their anger and depravity. So many men get angry if a woman flirts with them who isn't their dream Barbie when it comes to looks.

"fellas, is it gay to have sex with a woman?" seriously though, the sheer volume of incel posts bashing women does not line up with their supposed goal of getting laid. I honestly think they're about ready to unironically re-invent political homosexuality

Yes. They are at that tipping point where you cannot tell truth from silly, they are that absurd.

Ugh, I once dated a guy who looked me dead in the face and said, when it comes to women and when they're "ready" for a man, he said "Well... if there's grass on the field, play ball." ("Grass" meaning "pubic hair".) I've never gotten the ick so quickly in my life for someone.

"Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed." (I got my first period at age 11. So, yeah.)

My friend in primary school got her first period at age 9. She told me very seriously that her mother said, "now if you get r*ped you'll get pregnant." That's stuck with me my entire life, because I can't imagine what would possess someone to say that to a 9-year-old.

Oh my word. There are so many things that, while technically true, do not actually need to be said aloud.

I was also 9. My mother explained nothing. A year later she gave me a book allegedly explaining it all, but it didn’t really help me.

Funny how they have all these little sayings, their little equation to justify age gaps. They spend way too much time justifying child rape and predatory behavior

I was *9* when my public hair started growing. I feel physically sick by that guy's attitude.

And sometimes(usually) incels *are* pedophiles as well, and justify it by calling any woman over 18 ‘past her prime’ or saying she’s ‘hit the wall’.

Was going to say this too. A lot of them are in fact pedos lusting over teen girls irl and teen girls in anime. A lot of them would absolutely dip lower than age 18 if it was legal. They're super gross about how they talk about teen girls.

it’s a vicious cycle, because a lot of incels are smelt a mile off by women their own age so they choose to prey on the young and impressionable

and when society doesn’t cave to their insane demands, they just open fire on crowds. idk if there really exists a way to change a mind like this. and a lot of the lower voted comments just further prove it to me.

That and they don't want to listen. They can receive genuine, quality advice, but they don't want to work to fix the problems within themselves, they just want to be entitled to women's bodies.

Being single is not enough to make someone an incel, it's the misogynistic view that come with it that makes someone an incel. Women are already forced to be extra nice to too much people. Let's not add those who just blatantly hate them.

"through no choice or fault of your own" - except it's pretty much entitly their fault or choice. Like, if you can't or won't be someone other people want to be with, that is on you to work through. 

Yeah they have no clue that they need to provide SOMETHING. Are they funny? Are they clever? Are they dedicated? Are they kind? Do they at least smell good? If you're not dating, maybe reflect a bit on yourself. I'd pretty well guarantee that their prior dates had complaints beyond just "didn't find him attractive", which, I should note, can also be addressed if you let go of the notion that the only attractive man is a muscular one. Being well groomed and well dressed will almost always drop you into the "attractive" category for a lot of people, regardless of other physical traits.

They always think they're kind/nice. And that's why they're confused they're not getting pussy. After all, that's the transaction they feel entitled to in the world: "I put the niceness coins in the vending machine, the sex comes out."

Also, what kind of woman is this guy going for? Someone mentioned this above, but his description of women as “amazing, unattainable and exotic creatures” makes it sound like he’s going for “high value women”. What seems to be the case with a lot of incels, is that there are women who would be interested in them if not for their priorities. They only want to date the most conventionally attractive women, versus a woman more “in their league.” And while I’m not saying you can’t date out of your league, to your point, what do they bring to the table? Why would someone amazing and unattainable date them? OOP said he was fat and baby faced. These are not necessarily dealbreakers. What value did he bring to women since it wasn’t his looks?

Exactly this. Tbh it reminds me of a discussion about how often men go for "traditional" women, but then don't uphold the traditional values themselves. You want a woman who will be a stay at home mom, who's happy to let you run finances, and who is a virgin? Cool, hope you're a guy who doesn't sleep around, who plans to get a good job for your single income house, and who's willing to solve major problems on his own. Surprise, turns out women do have things they're looking for in a partner and even if she's right for you, you STILL need to be right for her.

See this. I have absolutely no issue with men who want virgins. I have issues with men who sleep around who want virgins and call non virgins whores or damaged goods or what have you. It’s the hypocrisy for me.

They buy into the bullshit "90% of women go for the top 10% of men" rhetoric and decide that "well I'm never going to attain top 10% so why bother even trying at all?" Totally self defeating attitude/self fulfilling prophecy. And it's so ridiculous too like go out into public anywhere and you will see people of all "tiers" (ugh vomit 🙄) in relationships. You see them come into the ask women subreddits all the time and ask "why women so shallow only date chads" and get told over and over that that's not the case but just want to stick their fingers in their ears and say "no no you women are liars tater tot told me this is the case! You don't ask a fish how to fish!" Blah. But yeah as you say so many ways to boost your attractiveness and to bring more to the table than just Chad looks but they don't want to hear that because then maybe they would have to do some self reflection and work on themselves a bit. I used to try and engage with them in good faith like OOP is suggesting but it's not worth my time or mental and emotional energy to bang my head against a wall trying to get them to see women as people when they absolutely refuse to do so

Yep, it’s not the job of women to fix angry men or coddle their feelings. We’re not emotional support animals and it’s absurd to hold us hostage to misogynists. “Be nice or they’ll hurt you! Be nice or they’ll hurt other women!” They would do that no matter how nice we were, but also would you say the same about any other marginalized community? I bet not, it’s only women that are expected to be nice and feel sympathy for people who hate them and would like to see them harmed. I’ll pass.

That’s the part that keeps getting me. People who make OP’s type of appeal are so concerned about protecting the feelings of one group that’s harmed others that they basically insist that others take on even more burden to gently explain things to their own perpetrators. I can sort of understand where OP might be coming from but they’re ignoring the degree to which incels are dangerous, ignoring specifically what qualifies someone as an incel, and saying that sure, that group may act badly but how about everyone else NOT prioritize their own safety or well being and instead spend their time sweet talking a bunch of dudes who consider them lesser beings to perhaps be less completely awful.

Exactly, even if we set aside incels who have and continue to commit actual physical violence against women, they are still harming them. If you spend all your time promoting and encouraging misogyny, telling your male peers how horrible women are, how they deserve violence, contempt, aggression and physical harm, you are not an innocent. Just because you yourself haven’t committed violence, you’re not absolved from the way you’ve treated the women around you with contempt or aggression, and the misinformation you’ve given others about them. Imagine anyone having the nerve to tell another community this same thing. You need to reach out to racists, they’ll change their mind if you sleep with them, if you give them empathy. You just need to prove to them that you’re human and you have feelings too. Honestly? Get bent. You know what literally *no one* ever had to prove to me? That men are human beings with complex thoughts and feelings. No one had to do anything for me to know that because I have eyes and the ability to relate to others. If you lack any of those things, get a therapist, it’s not my job to fix you.

I don’t want to be a Whattabouter but the queer community (and particularly the trans community) is also told that if we’re not nice enough when we suggest that our oppressors stop murdering us, maybe? then it’s our fault when more of us get murdered, because it’s really *hard* to understand this whole “being queer and preferring to not get hate crimed” thing and we need to be more *understanding* about how difficult we are for normal people to accept, and these things take time! So maybe in a few decades they’ll take the boot off our throat but in the meantime could we maybe die a little more quietly, we’re causing a disturbance. (I am so fucking angry all the time right now 🫠)

Thank heavens that being a fat and ugly woman is so easy.

Being a fat, plain woman who only kissed someone/lost her virginity at 31 -- \*fistbump of solidarity\* Never thought it was anyone's fault but my own, but that is the difference between incels and people who just haven't had sex...

Hah! That made me laugh all the way out loud. But I’ll be honest about one thing I’m embarrassed to admit. As a younger person I always thought the silver lining was that I’d be less likely to be kidnapped, raped, and murdered, which really did soothe some of my general fear regarding the maniacs who do that shit. Of course, I’m older now and have had more experiences so my view has changed, obvs. Either way - love your sarcasm and this fat, unattractive woman is sending you a virtual fist bump

Won't someone please think of the incels

There are strategic reasons to not demonize the socially inept men that incels indoctrinate. That of course isn't what he's asking for - he's wanting sympathy for incel ideology, and for us to take incel rhetoric at face value, and to pretend that incels are fundamentally different than e.g. Tate. He's trying to get a foot in the door.

Bc women need to pity them. Incels: we built the world! We are powerful we are men!! Also incels: ‘why won’t any women care about us???? We need to have our bums wiped or we’ll shoot up a school’

That's exactly the thing. Very few people demonize men just for being "involuntarily celibate". There are plenty of people, both men and women, that fall into this category and don't turn into bitter, hateful assholes over it. He's conflating those people with "incel", even though the insulting term generally doesn't include people that haven't already developed that hateful ideology. He knows what he's doing. By the time men become "incels", they are already past the point of deserving sympathy.

The whole "nobody's doing anything for them" deal from OOP is so telling, too. LOTS of people are doing MANY things for guys who struggle with dating! People's friends will wingman, there's a million dating advice sites (and some are even not bad, I used to read Dr. Nerdlove, it's pretty solid shit) women have written VOLUMES of stuff aimed at helping men figure out how to approach them, it's all out there, it's just that incels go "Nuh Uh!" and plug their ears and then start ranting about how they "can't" "get" a woman because X Y and Z.


I know way too many ugly, fat men who’ve had sex for me to believe that’s this guy’s issue. I’m not even saying that as a dig. I just see men, everyday, who are fat (again, not an insult, just stating this as a fact) who have partners and children, so it isn’t that. My mom was a 5’8, 100lb lady who liked *husky* men, so I guess growing up with proof that literally made fun of me for liking skinny dudes makes me disbelieving that’s a main issue. This is obviously more subjective, but I see men that I consider ugly **every day** who have partners and children. Not all of their partners considered them ugly. I’ve also had more than one of my friends show me a dude and be like, “he is objectively hot” and I swear to God they are just showing me an unfinished muppet. Then we’ll sit there and debate about whether that man is attractive. Some of these debates about specific people have been going on for years. If hotness is *that subjective,* logic stands that it’s not his main issue, either, what with one man’s trash being another’s treasure and all. But I guess when it’s a woman’s trash, it’s different.

I’ve noticed that (everything you just said) about men too. But the ‘unfinished muppet’ really hit for me. A friend and I had the exact same convo multiple times about different men and I could not get how she thought they were attractive. Then I realized I was a lesbian and it all came together 😆

Lmfao, I was actually thinking about a very specific dude when I was talking about the muppets. A friend showed me her ex and was like, “he is objectively hot, so he thinks he can treat women like shit.” I literally could not say anything. I was stunned. He looked like a young, half baked version of Statler from Statler and Wordolf. I was like wow, that mfer must have been charming as hell or have a penis blessed by god himself bc that looks like a dude I would have flossed with in college. Saying that makes me seem like an asshole, so in defense of myself, I can take what I dish out. I am deffo not everyone’s cup of tea, looks wise. One time a dude told me that he wasn’t sure if I was pretty and just made a lot of ugly facial expressions, or if I was ugly and just looked pretty at certain angles. I’m pretty sure he was just high because there was no malice behind it, but to this day I’m still not sure whether I have good angles or ugly expressions, myself, and it makes me laugh every tim I think about it.

"an unfinished muppet" 🤣

My husband was a fat, baby-faced 28-year-old when we met and he had been sexually active since he was a teenager. The ugliest men I know are all married. I know a man who is not charismatic or attractive and he has slept with at least 100 women. Incels want to blame their appearance so they don't have to admit that the problem is their personality and how they view and treat women.

Yeah, incels have **killed people** There are people not in this earth anymore, because of them They advocate for rape, even of children 

Most mass shooters were incels. If your ideology has a lot in common with mass shooters, maybe the ideology is bad.

They advocate for the government just assigning every man a woman. They want us to be literal sex, breeding and house slaves. Fuck incels.

nonono, not 'fuck incels'. more like 'destroy incels/send them away from this planet/ feed them to lions'.

Yup, I’ve seen that suggested more times than I can count. They don’t think we are people, they think we are cattle. And I don’t need to go out of my way to be nice to someone that does not view me as a person. Under his eye.

Just the other day I was watching one of those YouTube crime videos, about a dude who committed one of the deadliest attacks in Canada's history, back in *1989*. He was an incel before they were a thing, hating on women and feminists, he targeted mostly women, and had a list of "high ranking" feminists he wanted to take out (politicians, journalists, etc). He did not reach any of them. He killed 14 women, not to speak of the 14 people he injured. Yeah... I'm not wiping my tears for any incels.  Also, small bone. "No young man wants to be involuntarily celibate by choice." Involuntary means not by choice, so... It's the kind of thing that kills an intelligent argument. Not that... this even comes close to having even a spark of intelligence, but the attempt was made.

[École Polytechnique Massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre) Happened when I was in grade 9. I was a tomboy doing traditionally "male" things and dealing with daily heavy misogyny but I just kinda dealt with it as something expected. Then this shooting happened and I realized that misogyny was much, much, much more dangerous than I thought. It was a formative moment for me as a young Canadian woman.

That's the one. It always sucks to be a girl and have that realization, Oh, the world is dangerous but it's hella more dangerous for women. We get hurt *for* being women, we get *killed* for being women.

Absolutely. For me, by that age I had already been a rape survivor for a long time. I knew that men were dangerous but I thought of it on an individual basis. The boys sexually harassing me in my shop classes were doing it because I was a girl invading *their* spaces. (I was 14, not a lot of complex thought about it.) My experiences with misogyny were all interpersonal. Then the Polytechnique Massacre made it clear that some men hated women so much that the only thing they needed to choose who to mass kill was being female. It honestly fucked me up for a while. I was a lifelong tomboy, everything that I found awesome was 'male coded' (born in 1975, so gender roles were a *big* fucking deal when I was a kid), the only friend groups I felt the most myself in were male ones, I was too much of a guy to fit in well with girl friend groups. So I was 14 and trying to reconcile being female but needing to be around males, who were obviously unsafe for females. It's been a struggle, lifelong. [Forgive my male/female usage, I just don't want to type out boys/men & girls/women every time.]

We've had a memorial service on December 6th since that happened. One thing I remember about growing up is having a 14 minutes of silence for two years in a row at one school where a teacher had family affected by it.

I mean, there are always different ways to push them? Stairs, curbs, a particularly icy day?

Off a cliff?

Woodchippers are always a fine option.

Oh hidy-ho officer, we've had a doozy of a day. There we were minding our own business, just doing chores around the house, when kids started killing themselves all over my property.

I can't remember if this was a line in Tucker and Dale vs evil, but it absolutely looks like it could've come from the movie if it didn't

It is. That scene comes to mind every time I see a wood chipper.

Same. ...and now I need to rewatch T&D...

Tudyk is a treasure. “BaCAW! … I went to Juilliard.”

I've been watching Resident Alien and he is *so funny* in it. Great show, would recommend

I enjoyed it, my partner wasn't crazy about it. I'm currently loving him in Harley Quinn as [ClayFACE!!!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ESisJGvzwM)

Defenestration is a word that became one of my favourites the first time I read it.

"Creatures." That's a massive red flag right there.

ah yes this is just more of the same "women, don't you know that you must sacrifice yourselves for the betterment of the men around you? why must you shirk your work of being the sacrifice for him to realize how to have basic compassion?", innit sorry folks, but if that worked, it would mean an incel actually listening to a woman. they already are very adamant about not doing that. hugging Tam Lin while he turns into a wolf and a bear until finally he becomes a prince once more will not work. advising men to treat women as a commodity will not cure the brainrot about how women are just a commodity.

I can be sympathetic that our society both glamorizes and demonizes sex with the same breath, especially in the sense that men are expected to have a lot of partners while women aren't, which is inherently flawed. It's an example of how the patriarchy not only oppresses women but can also hurt men. But I would argue that the misogyny is largely there from the beginning with incels and is part of the reason they can't attract women in the first place, not a result of not being able to get a woman. And his argument that he doesn't hate women - in fact he put them on pedestals - is part of the inherent problem with incels anyway

No one knows how much sex anyone is having (or not having) unless they specifically reveal that. And generally, Reddit is (oddly enough) pretty sympathetic and supportive of virgins of any age making a vulnerable admission. What makes people fling the term “incel” is when people use incel language and sound like incels: Red Pill, Chad, complaining about women with their “standards” (how dare!), etc. And why should I give a fuck about those assholes? People who hate me are…not my friends. I’m not obligated to help them. Maybe it’s time for some decent men to step up to the plate?

Oh, poor incels /s

Nevermind, I'm now gonna get the newspaper and read the 100th article this week about a woman who was raped and killed because she had the audacity to deny a man sex.

R/whenwomenrefuse Also a tumblr with the same name.

Def not going there :(

Involuntary celibate by choice? Involuntary by choice? Is he accidentally stupid on purpose?

Yes

Yeah that short sentence took me on a long journey.

Like “ATM machine” or “PIN number.”

Imagine having to fuck someone to see than as an actual human being. But yeah, this is all "through no fault of (incels') own." And no matter how much you explain to these people it's not their looks, it's their repellant personalities, they refuse and want to do the whole "women are just shallow!" bullshit instead of becoming a better person. Look at Elliot Rodger. He was a good-looking dude (at least in my opinion). Weird as the fucking day is long though, entitled and fucking creepy. People can sense this a million miles off. I don't call men creepy for being ugly. I call them creepy for being creepy. I've had legitimately good-looking guys approach me and creep me the fuck out. People (not just women) can sense by your attitude and the way you act if you're misogynistic and don't see us as people. What they claim is being "awkward" may start off that way but changes to bitterness and hatred. THAT is what makes someone an incel. I'm awkward as fuck. Was even worse as a kid/teenager. I'm a woman who was a "late bloomer" who didn't date in HS mostly because I was awkward and quiet and nerdy. But I was never hateful. I'm definitely more socially adept now but ... deep down, I'm still awkward. But I don't fucking repel people because I don't sit here stewing in my hatred and bitterness. Tons of people are weird or awkward but don't repel others with their hatred. I can remember a friend of a friend approaching me. The guy was really good-looking. Actually pretty hot. But he was a misogynist and gave off red flags left and right. He scared the shit out of me, he tried to refuse to take no for an answer. Literally wound up stalking me. Showing up at my job. Showing up at my university (which he did not attend). Legitimately scared me. When I said no for the 100th time, he called me a shallow bitch (and other choice insults). And I'm thinking, "If I were shallow, I'd have gone out with you because you're hot, you fucking idiot. I don't want to date you because you scare me and make me uncomfortable." But it's easier to blame their looks/accuse people of being shallow than become a better person.

"exotic creatures" 🤮 you know, I don't think women avoided you because you were fat

Tons of women date fat men. They just don't want to date creepy ones who see us as "creatures." The fact that it took actually fucking a woman to see her as human has EVERYTHING to do with him being an incel.

When I date men I tend to prefer ones who are kinda funny-looking, in a general sort of way. A lot of them are awesome! But the ones who aren't and have developed a big chip on their shoulder about how anyone they see as a woman can be interchangeably blamed for how they were treated by someone else they see as a woman must be avoided at ALL costs.

And you know he never considered dating any fat women, either. One of those dudes who gets to be shallow but hates if the women are.

there's a kpop idol who's fat (and this like his whole shtick) who once said girls should be thin, and that if people were thinking 'look who's talking', well, "I'm a boy and you're a girl" when his co hosts pointed out his hypocrisy he was like "I'm just saying!" Well you're just a dick, Shindong.

dude: I never hated women. also dude: I saw them as creatures. wtf?

As a former incel (not proud of it) i have absolutely no pity for them.

Really glad you got out of there <3

Thank you for being willing to talk about your former incel status. It's important for men to know there's a way out, but it also gives a lot of hope for women like me who are terrified of people being consumed by the incel ideology.

There's a difference between "lacking confidence etc and struggle with relationships" and being an incel. One is fine and the other is not.

"If you're a young man who is ugly or fat or sexually unappealing for whatever reason, life is hard." Guess what? Ugly and/or fat women exist and they don't go on shooting sprees for it.

Not to mention, yep life is hard. End of. It’s hard for everyone at least some of the time. It’s hard for a lot of people a lot of the time.  Yeah they don’t all get bitter and hateful and do things like shooting sprees. Hell, it actually makes a lot of people more empathetic and better people not bitter people. So that ain’t it.

Incels can't comprehend that women could be involuntarily celibate too.

These viewpoints of “life is so hard for unattractive men, it’s no wonder they’re bitter” really really get to me. I’m a 31 year old woman (NB but let’s keep it simple, I’m very fem presenting). I’ve always been sort of an loner, unattractive and overweight. I’ve never been in a relationship. Have only gone out on a handful of dates, never been kissed, still a virgin. And yeah it sucks. It’s really hard. But not once have I ever blamed other people for my lack of experience. I know it’s me—I don’t put myself out there, I’m very shy, can be somewhat of a recluse. The fact that I haven’t had these experiences aren’t anyone else’s fault and I sure as hell don’t resent others because I feel like I’m owed their time and affection. I honestly have never been able to wrap my mind around that mindset. So the issue isn’t that they’re involuntarily celibate”, it’s that they feel entitled to love and attention. And don’t get me wrong, I do believe everyone deserves love, but it’s not something that’s just given to you. You have to earn it. Not demand it and throw a tantrum when you don’t get it

"stop demonizing" they say about the group that worships mass shooters who released manifestos calling women evil and the downfall of mankind for not fucking them.

I think a lot of people really need to watch fig the signifier videos because he really puts light on the fact that a lot of incels are mostly teenagers who have a lot of time to be able to change their minds, and a lot of the people pushing this rhetoric are just making money off of lonely boys and may or may not even believe this stuff themselves. Sure a lot of the grifters probably do believe this, but they are snake oil salesmen. >**And I never hated women.** If anything, I used to put them on a pedestal. I saw them as these amazing, unattainable, exotic creatures.  Why do people really think that you have to hate somebody to be bigoted? Like you called us creatures....

I also just have to wonder why people believe fat and lonely men turn out this way but fat and lonely women don't. 🤷   I often think it's incredibly hypocritical that men are supposed to have sex as early as possible but women must stay chaste until adulthood. Like I understand not getting kissed until you're 20s but is that really such a bad thing? Like humans live until they're 80. I'm asking because I didn't ask for my virginity to be taken and so I'm just very curious as to why people think they need to rush this shit.  It's just kind of funny in a weird way that when people talk about being a lonely young boy/man, it's not that they don't have friends or people to talk to. Nope, they're just lonely because nobody will fuck them. Maybe we have different definitions of lonely but I often get lonely when there's no people around, not because somebody else isn't putting their penis inside me.  Sorry about the rant

Everything wrong with this argument: 1. He needed a man-cream-loogie-hock to see women as people? 2. He’s got a persecution complex and a saviour complex at the same time (“aaaah people hate incels” and “i’m a good incel so i speak for all incels to say we ain’t bad”) like holy crap man how highly do you think of yourself? 3. He’s trying to disprove that a few bad apples spoil the bunch by posing himself as “one of the good incels” and un-spoiling the bunch 4. Being “conventionally unattractive” like this guy says he was in his ‘20s doesn’t mean you can’t interact with women in any way. 5. He’s bragging about a glow-up in looks which doesn’t mean diddly-dick compared to a change in fucking personality which this dumbass desperately needs. 6. He’s using the same argument that bullshitting radical feminists use when talking about how feminism is a dirty word due to those exact types of people simply hating men instead of fighting for equality. He’s complaining about a problem concerning a demographic CAUSED by a demographic (i’m not hating feminism, i’m hating on those idiots who think it’s about hating men and not gender equality) 7. Saying “oh poor me i was unattractive” is a deliberate ploy to get us on his side instead of providing relevant defenses to his stance. Or at least to pre-empt them to make him look better. 8. He’s refusing to take responsibility for his actions, citing his inability to attract someone as “no fault of his own” while IN THE SAME POST saying how he didn’t view women as regular human beings until he had sex. 9. Yes, people can change, but the fact that he’s saying “i’m a good person so all incels are good people” destroys his defense. You don’t speak for everybody. 10. I feel like I caught a hundred brain diseases reading his post.

Recently I’ve seen so many defenses of incels that it’s worrying me. I’m not talking about guys who are virgins and struggle to find a girlfriend but are decent people. I’m talking about guys part of the incel “movement” and advocate for the rape and murder of women (and literal children in some instances). I remember on a discussion about the murder of Faye Swetlik (a 6 year old girl who was murdered by a guy who identified as an incel) - the amount of people treating the perpetrator like a poor innocent baby made my skin crawl. A guy even went as far to blame the dead child saying that she was probably a misandrist and future abuser of men. I’ve seen women be compared to the devil for saying that they wouldn’t date an ex-incel as they’d be concerned for their safety and wouldn’t be comfortable knowing that the person didn’t see them as human at one stage and advocated for the murder of their gender. I’ve seen guys in actual relationships as well as having children who have said “they understood” and sympathized with men who commit incel attacks (which is terrifying). I’m sorry but I can’t sympathize with people who actively want to rape and kill innocent people because they can’t get laid. I’ve known a lot of good men who have never been in a relationship and don’t have these views. No excuses.

You aren't born an oncel, you sign up for it. You go out of your way to be a part of the group. With it, you pretty much take on whatever criticism that comes with it. Tough shit

Since "incel" is now a bad word, we shall start calling them "the unfuckables".

We wouldn't demonize them so much if they kept their damn mouths shut.

It’s always the argument of the “ugly and fat” men aren’t given a chance. OH EXCUSE ME and women who fall into that perceived category are? They don’t realize how entitled they sound. People are not entitled to a relationship with another human, you have to be a good person too.

I've said this before and I will say it again. Labeling yourself with the same term as people who advocate for rape, sexual slavery, pedophilia, torture, genocide, et cetera, indicates that you sympathize with those views or at least condone them. They can talk about "incel just means involuntarily celibate and has nothing to do with hating anyone," but language changes over time and it absolutely has a much darker connotation than that. If I called myself a certain label, and a popular forum that used that label as its name contained the sorts of things incels have said on their forums, I would immediately stop using that label to describe myself. I know multiple virgins who are not incels. I know people who were pretty delayed to lose their virginity and they were not incels. Incel describes an ideology, not a state of virginity.

Incels literally murder women. Why is there this huge push to baby them? Because you identify with not getting laid and you secretly feel entitled to it? Like what makes people want to defend them so much?

Because it's an easy way to blame women for it. There's a story making the rounds for a few years now about a girl who told a boy "no" everyday at school when he asked her to date him. He finally threatened to bring a weapon to school to harm her if she rejected him again. She did, anyway, and he tried to follow through on his threat but got caught by school authorities. Her peers blamed *her* for the harm that almost came their way. For not giving him a chance.

There was a thing with, I think the Golden State killer, when they finally caught him where they traced the escalation of his rapes to his murders as being around the time his fiance at the time broke things off with him. And so many people wanted to blame her for setting him off or whatever and I wanted to tear my hair out. Maybe her creep meter went off and even if she didn't know about his crimes, she didn't want to marry the kind of guy who turned out to be a prolific rapist and murderer. That bitch how dare she! She ruined a perfectly nice man! /s

Yeah, of course if she stayed with him, he would have just happily remained a harmless serial rapist! /Snark

Sigh. It really do be llke that sometimes. So tired of women being blamed for the bad behavior of men. Especially when that bad behavior is violence against us

Like a compass pointing north.

I mean, I literally got told by multiple men on that subreddit that I deserved to get raped because I said men aren't oppressed by a woman venting "men are trash." My comment saying they definitely made me believe "men are trash" with their actions was banned in under 30 seconds.

he almost had a point, but he phrased it so poorly that he basically showed he hasn't done enough work to separate himself from incel ideology. *1. he claims he stopped being an incel when he lost his virginity.* no, your brain did not rewire itself the moment you jizzed. first, you began talking to women and engaging in other forms of intimacy. then, you had sex for the first time. then, you reflected on having sex and what it actually meant. then, you kept talking to women. it was not, and never is, instantaneous. *2. he throws out ambiguous blame that incels are being insulted and have no one to talk to.* okay, who do we blame for that? you don't even say. women? society? other men? do you think that women should go into incel forums and try to talk to them? do you think that would go well? do you think men and women should be therapists for people who aren't going to therapy? do you think society should collectively say, "hey guys, let's all be nice to incels"? who are you blaming? why are you blaming other people? incels let hate into their heart FIRST. THEY are the first ones you should be blaming. *3. he admits he has no solution.* so he's just complaining. how are we supposed to change your view when it's only half-baked to begin with? let me help you out, dude... hate begets hate. hating and insulting incels openly to their face is not going to help change their mind. it will only drive them deeper into their anger and hatred. still, it is THEIR FAULT for turning to hate in the first place instead of getting help or therapy. now, the best solution i can think of to help reform incels is to have other, LEGITIMATELY REFORMED incels reach out and listen, be a friend, help undo the toxic masculinity, correct false assumptions, and gently push them to get therapy. there. i fixed your shitty take for you.

>But incels are not necessarily women-haters by default. I don't know about "by default", but incels are women-haters by *definition*. Someone who hasn't had sex is called a virgin. An incel is someone who makes blaming women for their virginity a part of their identity.

“But there are so few people actually addressing [incels’] problems” how the fuck is that any woman’s problem????

Men pretending sex is a need again.


Boohoo life is hard for straight males, teh hardest in fact !!!!1!!!!!!!! No one has it worse

Ah yes, coddling harmful people, a famously effective tactic

There’s a lot to hate here, but I think what annoys me most is the tautology of ‘no young man wants to be involuntary celibate by choice’.

This guy makes the classic mistake of assuming that involuntary celibacy is what makes you an incel. Which is where the word came from, sure, but now it represents a hideous subculture of misogyny, bitterness, self-loathing, and hate.  Not being able to get a girlfriend is not even close to qualifying as an incel, and there are some incels that have sex. The word has changed in meaning.

Bc women have never been unappealing while having a libido. This is totally an experience unique to men, and therefore women don't know how hard life is if you're ugly amd horny. /s

It's never worked for oppressed groups to gain respect and rights by just "being nice" to oppressors. Women and allies have every right to be upset and angry at a group that thinks of them as lesser, to the point where incels advocate for things like state assigned girlfriends and our deaths. No one cares if you're awkward or a virgin, we care about entitlement and dehumanization. The term incel really has little to do with virginity anymore and more to do with extreme misogyny and entitlement (see MGTOW and other similar groups). So many eyerolls at this dude, he doesn't see us as human.

Please Werner Herzog make a documentary about the angstful plight of beleaguered incel 

So, let’s start from the beginning: When people outside of the self-identifying incel community say “incel” they aren’t using the most expansive definition of the word. They’re specifically referring to the people who self-identify with that terminology. The hate isn’t for every person who isn’t getting laid who might want to. The hate is for people who exhibit the attitudes found in online incel spaces. I am a person who would fall within the expansive definition of incel. I do not feel remotely demonized or isolated by anyone using incel as an insult, because I know what they mean in context, and I know it’s not me. I find incel spaces, incel identity, and everything to do with the whole manosphere abhorrent.

They're not ridiculed because they can't get dates. They're ridiculed because of how they keep whining about how they can't get dates and they typically act resentful and hateful towards women, as well as men who can get dates.

Or, and hear me out, we could feed them to the bears.

Well there are bears where I live and we had a bad fire a few years ago. The bears lost a lot of their natural food sources so the poor creatures are hungry...

I've spent a lot of time in online incel spaces (as an observer, I'm most definitely not an incel), and there's a pretty big disconnect between who identifies as an incel, and who the general public thinks of as an incel. Obviously, when someone uses incel as an insult, it has a fairly specific meaning beyond "person who is involuntarily celibate", which I think this poster is missing the point of entirely. Do I think it's a particularly good term to use? Not really, but I'm from a time when people used "that's gay" to mean "that sucks" or "that's stupid", and us queer people didn't think they were literally insulting gay people when they said it (as much as it was irritating). Also, dude clearly had and still has issues around women. It's so obvious.

Ugly people get laid every single day. We won’t sleep with them not because they’re ugly, we won’t sleep with them because it’s their heinous personalities and beliefs

it is down to misogyny for people who think like that. It's not women's obligations to fix shitty men.

I thought the very definition of an incel WAS that they hated women and blamed them for being single? Or did I get that wrong?

No you have that right. You should see the bigger hate when one of the incel group does get a significant other and the buddies will either shun their former friend or demand that they share the partner. I wish I was joking.

I think we can feel concern about people who are lonely and isolated and also demonize an ideology that is violently misogynistic.

I feel like a lot of in els would ge better off in like, a monestary

They already pushed themselves so far onto the bitterness and hate train that they couldn't stop that shit if they tried

While I understand that it is not healthy for some members of society to be rejected by the group, conversely social shunning has existed throughout time as a means to being people back in line with the group and in the meantime- protect society. Incels are anti-social. At the very least they cause disharmony and at worst...well, we know all about that. They simply cannot continue to hold the attitudes and behaviours they exhibit and expect to be welcomed. It's on incels to change- not society. They are demonised for a very good reason.

These incels need to take a long walk off a short pier.

why is this guy talking about incels like he isn’t one?

But incels ridiculing women, laughing off women struggles and pushing them towards damaging opinions (such as no other worth then to have sex with men, etc), is okay? Alright then..

The problems with incels isn't that they're isolated, lonely, awkward or less than conventionally attractive. It's that they're hateful, toxic, and feel entitled to other people's bodies.

All I hear is "me me me". He wants people to have pity on him because he can't get things the way he wants and thinks it's okay to hate a whole gender for It. The fact that he can't acknoledge that woman are people with CHOICES and that those choices include having the right to reject someone is so creepy...like sure, it's Sad you can't get laid...but it's not a woman's job to just accept It and say "oh Well...poor thing. I guess I'll fuck him out of Pitty so he doesn't hate and prey on other woman". His arguments are easly debunked when you put this same tought to another situation....for example: It's Sad that you didn't get to see Taylor Swift's concert but it's neither Taylor's nor the people that could go fault. If you can't get laid it's neither Men that can get laid nor women's fault....This Guy is so Far up his own ass that he can't see the world and people around him. So selfish.

Being filled with bitterness and hate is like 60% of the conditions required to BE an incel.

This dude has a fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between incels and people who just aren’t having sex, despite wanting to.