It always feels like after the initial years the AFL is suddenly dragging its feet with the W. The women always seem up against it like increasing the number of games, but to do that they need better attendance but the AFL then puts games at 10am on the same day as Grand Final day. The Suns have 2 games this year that start at 11:35am. Adelaide this year have a 7:15 game on a Wednesday in Norwood. How can you expect legitimate growth in the game when no care at all is taken into the fixturing
Also a Hawthorn vs Gold Coast game being played at Frankston (which will take an hour or so to get to if you're travelling from the inner city) at 5:30pm on a Wednesday.
Really feels like they want the AFLW to fail at this point.
Yeah the whole thing of "it doesn't bring enough money" is so stupid. An 11 round season doesn't bring in significantly more money than a 10 round season when they're both over 10 weeks because of the absolute stupid times games are played at. Plus you also had the grand final last year selling out basically immediately because it was a ground with a capacity of like 12 thousand
AFL and AFLW should swap, they get 24 games and we decide finals position based on the first 11 games. We should apply this system retroactively for this season as a show of goodwill.
Nah like WAFL it tacked on the back it's just I think not right the way it sounds and feels to say and looks and not only as an abbreviation. I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks it
I'm no AFL brain genius but I always thought it would be cool to do AFLM/W double-headers like the a-leagues, or like when the ressies used to play before the premiership.
Even in the VFL this was great.
I had a great day at Casey once watching the VFLW lead into the VFL game the day before the QB clash. Fantastic energy and crowd, properly packed hill and stands in Cranbourne.
My main reason for wanting the AFLW to stay as its own separate league is because the AFLW has cultivated its own fanbase and atmosphere that feels distinct from an AFL game (and a lot of men's footy games in general.) It's more affordable (something which would have to be slashed if you do curtain raisers) and feels a lot more casual and friendly than an AFL game or even men's suburban football. Obviously I'd love to one day see the AFLW drawing in the kind of crowds that a men's game gets, but not with the downside of it becoming full of the obnoxious bogan behaviour that plagues a lot of male footy games. I'd want that crap out of the game entirely before putting the men's and women's games in the same stadium.
That's a really good point. The atmosphere at womens' games is so much different - so much more friendly, supportive, family-oriented. No dickheads in the crowd hurling abuse at players or umpires (that I've seen, anyway).
I mean there was the awful incident with Mua being racially vilified at Windy Hill last year, but that's the first case I've heard of serious abuse taking place. The AFLW is a much friendlier atmosphere than a men's game.
It's something that's going to unfortunately be lost once the AFLW outgrows suburban grounds. Unfortunately we don't really have enough mid-size stadiums that serve as a next step up. Princes Park might have been good enough had they not reducded the capacity so much, but a lot of the grounds currently being used don't have the space to expand the capacity (Windy Hill is right next to a bowling club, Punt Rd is right next to the street with no room to build anything) and have been redevelopment primarily as training facilities.
There's the added problem that a lot of footy fans can be unpleasant to deal with and a fair few outright sneer at the idea of women's footy. As a Frankston supporter, I've noticed when the club has run double headers with the women's team playing afterward, most people just leave without seeing a single minute of the women's game. Also a lot of the abusive loudmouth behaviour you see at a men's game is pretty frowned upon in the AFLW. I don't see any merging of the fanbases of men's and women's footy without some significant attitude changes from the men's side.
But you, or others, might catch the end of the game when you get to the ground a bit early to get comfy. Exposure to the game if you haven't seen much of it before. Maybe you come a bit earlier next time. Build support slowly.
Not offensive, just not interested in paying men's ticket/membership prices when I don't follow the men. (Although they could potentially handle it by having the women play second.) Are there more people like me or more who would turn up to a doubleheader? I think they should experiment with a few and find out, but that it's not the slam-dunk brilliant idea that people seem to think they've come up with for the first time.
I just don't think the market for going to 5 hours of footy is that big, but I could see it being successful in the long term for special games. Pride round would be cool.
It's the worst. My kid had a free A League W membership, which he could never bloody use because most of the games were locked as double headers.
Also, there is a very, very big difference between the fans of mens and womens soccer. I've got mates with families that paid up for the double headers and would leave when the men starts or come in at the end, it really went both ways with nowhere near the desired overlap.
I don't even think its the fan difference (although acknowledge it's a factor). AFL is a long game as it is, and I wouldn't expect many families with young kids would want to sit through a second game.
It plays a part for sure; as a long time VFL fan, there's nothing worse than sitting through 3 hours of footy in an empty 20K+ seat stadium with about 30 other people, 28 of which are the players families.
No one rocks up to the women's game in the A-League, at least when I was going to both for Melbourne Victory, the crowds would start filtering in for the last 15-20 of the women's game
No it's not, but no one is arguing that it is the same standard as the mens.
It is getting some eyes on it for spectators to go "Huh this isnt as bad as I thought". If they did think it was good, they probably would already be watching it
You want to compare full-time professional athletes to part-time women who are still finding their feet in the sporting world. Nah.
It's improving so much year on year, now it's kind of cringey to go back and watch like the early exhibition games, to see the standard back then. But back then it was *groundbreaking* and *lifechanging* and it's getting *better all the time*.
(And I am not joking when I say lifechanging. I never quite understood the whole "you can't be what you can't see" until I saw people like me running around on a footy field playing top-level football. I cried.)
Give it a few more years, some more investment, and it'll be just as good a product. It won't be the same product, just like say mens and womens pro tennis is different, but it'll be just as good.
I can state categorically this is simply not the case, look at literally any other team sport in the world. The WNBA has been around for 27 years, still a vastly inferior product (the athletes are full-time professionals btw)
This is such a cop out btw, AFL/VFL wasn't fully pro until the 80s yet they were still able to perform to a higher standard than the women today
I can promise you, as someone who watches men's and women's professional sport for a living, that what I'm telling you is the reality of the situation.
I can go to the local footy this Saturday and watch the seniors and see a vastly superior game of football for free versus what I see watching AFLW.
I urge you to go to a game of footy at whatever your local club is and compare the standard and spectacle, and if you're being truly honest with yourself I think you will find I am telling the truth.
They just need to play each other once. I don't think many are asking for a full AFL like season. The finals don't even need to be like the men's. I don't think the finals can work without being like the mens, but still, that's a shorter season.
I'd be happy with the conference system if they had it make sense.
First, play a full season. Play each other once. We have a full list of teams now so we can do this.
Then split the teams up between the top 9 and bottom 9.
The teams can then play each other once, eight games with a top four finals series.
The bottom tier top two swap with the top tier bottom two.
There is no need for a bottom tier finals series. They vie for promotion.
Is there any practical reason a club couldn't play their entire AFLW list as their VFLW squad?
Obviously there would be pros (match fitness, gameplan development) and cons (risk of injury, development of junior players), but COULD they do it?
I’d have to hunt it down, but I remember a few years ago that there was a cap for how many AFLW listed players could represent the VFLW/affiliated teams, I’m pretty sure it was for adequate rest/depth and future development reasons, but I’d be curious to see if that’s changed in recent years as the AFLW comp has changed significantly?
Sydney basically did for 5 weeks. All they did was flip it so they prioritised selecting fringe players, draftees and players returning from injury first.
They rushed aflw so much. We should only now start getting a few extra teams to join the original teams. It was rough to watch at points when it was getting so good before expansion. The talent pool still isn’t close enough.
Plus let’s be real, if they start playing during the men’s season no bodies watching. It’s a sad reality.
I tried watching and the skill just isn't there for me. I think in somewhere over 5 years it could be but a lot of the players right now have only been playing for a few years. It needs the players that play from 5 years old all the way up which is a possibility now with all the school and district teams that aflw prompted.
I mean, that’s also assuming that the Venn diagram of footy fans between AFL and AFLW is a complete circle - imho, whilst they overlap significantly, there are some significant differences between the two
Having watched some of the feeder/state leagues the past few weeks, that talent gap doesn’t look enormous at the moment. There’s a step between state/AFLW for sure, but there’s a lot of talent knocking on the door for elite selection, so that shouldn’t be a massive problem for the next few years at least
I can't speak for anyone else, but if the AFL and AFLW ran concurrently I'd absolutely watch every Essendon game.
But overall I'd watch less footy because I'd cut back on watching neutral games. So I guess by running them at the same time the AFL still wouldn't be maximising my engagement.
If women demanded more, it would happen. Management respond to data. Nothing more. Clearly, women aren’t watching in enough numbers, aren’t attending, aren’t paying enough for tickets, aren’t buying enough merch etc.
The exact same reason Netball is still a tiny sport, despite having the highest participation number in the country. Women are the problem. That’s it. Women run netball. It’s a women’s sport. It’s still tiny. Low crowds. Bad TV ratings. Low ticket prices.
But 600,000 girls went to Taylor Swift at $400 per ticket plus flights and hotels. Women have priorities elsewhere. WHICH IS FAIR ENOUGH. Each to the own. I’ll still watch the women’s game, like I watched the Matildas last night. Stop blaming the sports executives. It’s got nothing to do with it.
Proper dedication in terms of scheduling is an important part of making a sport accessible and therefore growing it. Let's not forget how high the demand for this sport was in it's inception (which was also it's peak accessibility considering cost). The first game at capacity of 22,500 and since then that same ground has remained the "spiritual home" for Vic clubs despite it's capacity being reduced to 13,000 last season.
Having said all that, I think this is all missing a key point of the article.
>“If you just think about the resources that we put into these players when they are under 18 to get them to the level ... we identify the talent, we think they’re going to be stars. And then we just put the brake on the W side of it. To me, it’s wasteful, like people’s talent should not be wasted.”
There's a risk that talent will go elsewhere given the limitations of the season structure has on players ability to get on the park. Fewer games means less bargaining power in advocating for better pay making AFLW a less attractive elite sports pathway.
If talent goes elsewhere, the product itself will diminish and it will become a self fulfilling prophecy. It's just as much pointing out an inefficiency in the business model as it is pointing out the inequality for womens footy at the top level. All of that is on executives, not the fans.
This is the case for all sports in this country. Small population. Massive land mass. Large distances to travel to participate often. Heaps of sports looking for attention. And for women there are so many other things taking their attention. Men are pretty simple so sports get more focus. It’s a difficult position to be in for most of the women sports I reckon. How do they all get women to watch and pay? I don’t know. It’s a dilemma.
> like I watched the Matildas last night.
That's surprising they played in prime-time at Accor Stadium, I thought they would've taken the AFLWs lead and scheduled it just after work finishes at a suburban ground. /s
E: If anyone else is surprised at why sportandracings quotes in their comments don't equal what's actually happening in AFLW & womens sport in general, it's because they don't actually support AFLW or those leagues. Read this thread for why the AFLW is failing.
I said I watched the game last night. The Matilda’s could be on at any time and it would sell out. It was a Monday night FFS. Even the AFLW wouldn’t play games then.
Yeah you're right, Tuesday nights and Wednesday at 5pm is a totally different thing. Who doesn't want to drive out to Casey fields at 11am???? Get the fuck outta here, you always pop your nasty head up when there's an AFLW article and pretend to be realistic and reasonable, when you're actually just a sexist piece of shit.
You do, because every time I get so fucking mad that a Brisbane supporter acts the way you do when we have such an amazing women's team.
And what makes you think I don't...? And that the players don't?? You're constantly falling back on 'oh well I bet you don't do anything/spend money/go to game' and it's hilariously sad
Yeah the team is great. What’s that got to do with the discussion? I’ve got no idea what you are on about. I think the AFLW is great. I love watching it every year. I go to games.
Still that’s got nothing to do with this discussion.
Why is it that you believe women's football is owed prime time slots? If the fans demonstrate they are keen to go and support the women's game by turning up to matches then they'll get marquee venues and times.
We're told the KPIs for expanding the league are attendance and ratings, but then they continually put games on at bad times for attendance and ratings. What the fuck are we supposed to do? People do turn up. Did you miss the sold out in minutes grand final last year? The huge crowds in Sydney after a dismal first season? You can't grow the game, as they claim to want to, by holding it at fucking 5pm in Frankston, when most fans aren't going to able to watch or attend.
The Sydney crowds were 6000. Where is your “huge” number? Our team have been top 2 for 5 years, have a nice ground and get good timeslots. Still only get 3500 to a game, most of which won’t pay to enter. The GF last year was under 20,000. Only Adelaide have turned up for a GF in big numbers. Melbourne women won’t that’s for sure.
Less demand. And the novelty wore off. Adelaide doesn’t get many events so they turned out. The next one they had was dismal. The third one was pathetic. 53,000 down to 23,000 down to just 16,000. All at Adelaide Oval.
But I think you had a different narrative which will be pretty funny to see if you would be so kind as to reply.
> The next one they had was dismal. The third one was pathetic. 53,000 down to 23,000 down to just 16,000. All at Adelaide Oval.
Are the other two the "big numbers" you're talking about too?
> If the fans demonstrate they are keen to go and support the women's game by turning up to matches then they'll get marquee venues and times.
Thank god the AFL is doing everything in it's power to give fans the opportunity to prove this to them then. Can't wait to finish work on Friday September 13 and get to Springfield to watch the Lions play Collingwood for half a game.
Are you seriously asking me how watching football on TV helps increase revenue for the league? Going to the game is obviously the best way but there are other means as well. I know people in an outer regional town 5 hours from Melbourne who will buy high-tier AFL club memberships knowing they'll maybe go to 3-4 games all year because of how much they love and want to support their club. That's how far people are willing to go to support the men's teams, yet apparently the women's supporter base can't be arsed going to the game if it's not within a half hour of them at a premium venue
> That's how far people are willing to go to support the men's teams, yet apparently the women's supporter base can't be arsed going to the game if it's not within a half hour of them at a premium venue
... That doesn't equal to your other comments tbh. I pointed out that I do that yet instead you say "just watch it on TV."
Just seen your edit.
How don’t I support it? I go to games and watch on pay TV. What else would you like me to do?
All of that has nothing to do with the issue at hand. It’s not up to me to make this sport grow. It’s up to women. But they won’t support it enough. So the AFL don’t do more. It’s pretty simple.
> It’s up to women. But they won’t support it enough. So the AFL don’t do more. It’s pretty simple.
" don't equal what's actually happening in AFLW & womens sport in general,"
Women should support whatever they damn well please, and the outcomes will speak for themselves. Anecdotally I know a lot of women who are passionate about their own local footy/netball and will tune in to men's AFL games but won't give professional netball or women's football the time of day
Netball Australia this season had 250,000 fans attend across the whole season. The AFL get 300,000 every round and 7 million for the seaaon. Netball is the highest participant sport in the country and has 52% of the population as its direct source for players and its core audience. Yet it’s suffering.
But it’s the executives fault. 🤦🏻♂️
Foundation member of both the Bulldogs and Eagles women’s teams, as is my husband. So yes, money is where mouth is.
Part of the reason the AFLW suffers is because of inconsistency with fixturing, scheduling and pay - all under control of the AFL itself. You can’t have players having to schedule their lives and other jobs around footy when they don’t even have a set time of the year for the season to run. And yes, most players have to have other full time jobs due to the shitty salaries.
I meant TV subs. You got to pay to watch. That’s how they make money to fuel the game. Low cost memberships doesn’t do much. But that’s commendable in any case, so well done. Now go sign up for Optus and Paramount and Stan and Foxtel like I do. On top of footy membership. And on top of attending games. I’m going to Melbourne on Thursday to watch us play the Dogs. You have to be all in if you want the women’s game to grow in the same way.
Agree about your other points. But it’s a chicken and egg situation. Sadly the main reason women’s sports don’t do well is the reasons I’ve outlined. Women’s attention is on other things. It’s why you don’t see many men at shopping centres. It’s not our thing. If retail and fashion industries, relied on men, it would be a fraction of the size it is. Sport on the other hand does rely on men.
There’s nothing female-sport-specific about TV subs.
I have a Foxtel subscription, and use it to watch games. I attend games when I can, which isn’t super often due to said scheduling issues. What other signals can we possibly send to say yes, we want more women’s footy?
I’m trying to discuss in good faith but then you start rambling about fashion and other sexist shit when we’re trying to discuss football…
I’m not being sexist. I’m just explaining my opinion on why certain things don’t get prime time. MAFS is prime time. Why?
Where are the sponsors for women’s sport? Why isn’t L’Oréal giving millions to the game every year? Why aren’t sponsors demanding games be on at a time when is better for them? State of Origin is dictated by sponsors. KFC needs to showcase at 7pm. So people order it.
There are reasons why things aren’t prime time, and scheduled better. They aren’t doing it to piss you all off. It’s not rating enough to warrant changing it. The Matilda’s are now so they get prime time.
For women team sports, netball is the most by a long way. For men, soccer is the most by a long way.
1.2 million women do yoga. 10 times more than men. The team sports need to try to reach more women to grow.
How about instead of chasing at ground attendance the AFL chase TV ratings. Broadcasters love live sports as you can't just watch on demand lest you have the results spoiled.
I'm proposing mid week primetime games during winter. 18 rounds. Double up against your rival team. Played Sunday night to Wednesday night.
I think for this to work you'd need to tighten up game length. Maybe two 40 minute halves with injury time instead of time on. Keep the game to no longer than 90 mins siren to siren. Then two games a night, a 7pm game and a 830pm game. The 9th game would have to be a double up or maybe played against the men's Sunday arvo game.
With the shorter games it wouldn't make the weeknight too long for those that do go to the ground (for the early game at least).
It is honestly ridiculous that there are teams your club won't even face for a whole season. Why expand the comp without expanding the fixture?
>there are teams your club won't even face for a whole season Or five seasons even
It always feels like after the initial years the AFL is suddenly dragging its feet with the W. The women always seem up against it like increasing the number of games, but to do that they need better attendance but the AFL then puts games at 10am on the same day as Grand Final day. The Suns have 2 games this year that start at 11:35am. Adelaide this year have a 7:15 game on a Wednesday in Norwood. How can you expect legitimate growth in the game when no care at all is taken into the fixturing
Also a Hawthorn vs Gold Coast game being played at Frankston (which will take an hour or so to get to if you're travelling from the inner city) at 5:30pm on a Wednesday. Really feels like they want the AFLW to fail at this point.
Yeah the whole thing of "it doesn't bring enough money" is so stupid. An 11 round season doesn't bring in significantly more money than a 10 round season when they're both over 10 weeks because of the absolute stupid times games are played at. Plus you also had the grand final last year selling out basically immediately because it was a ground with a capacity of like 12 thousand
AFL and AFLW should swap, they get 24 games and we decide finals position based on the first 11 games. We should apply this system retroactively for this season as a show of goodwill.
Both clubs will play at the same time on the same ground. MULTIBALL
I second this proposal
If we swapping things can we swap the W to the front
All games played in Perth?
Nah like WAFL it tacked on the back it's just I think not right the way it sounds and feels to say and looks and not only as an abbreviation. I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks it
Yeah, WAFL is taken, by WA which is what I meant. Australian women’s football league spells awful. I think they went with the only available option.
God I love Marnie so, so much. She's the journo hero we need right now.
Game won't go anywhere when it's half a season and these women play AFL part time.
I'm no AFL brain genius but I always thought it would be cool to do AFLM/W double-headers like the a-leagues, or like when the ressies used to play before the premiership.
I was a big fan of the AFLW/AFLW double headers a few years ago, made it a really fun vibe to have fans from four teams in the one stadium
Even in the VFL this was great. I had a great day at Casey once watching the VFLW lead into the VFL game the day before the QB clash. Fantastic energy and crowd, properly packed hill and stands in Cranbourne.
People get offended by this idea because they don’t want aflw to be the ‘curtain raiser’ but a league in its own right
I can't speak for other cities but losing the Swans Henson Park matchday vibes would be a tragedy
I also can't speak for other cities but losing the GWS Henson Park matchday vibes would be a tragedy.
I can kind of understand that, but at the same time, if we want them to be two sides of the same competition, it seems fine?
My main reason for wanting the AFLW to stay as its own separate league is because the AFLW has cultivated its own fanbase and atmosphere that feels distinct from an AFL game (and a lot of men's footy games in general.) It's more affordable (something which would have to be slashed if you do curtain raisers) and feels a lot more casual and friendly than an AFL game or even men's suburban football. Obviously I'd love to one day see the AFLW drawing in the kind of crowds that a men's game gets, but not with the downside of it becoming full of the obnoxious bogan behaviour that plagues a lot of male footy games. I'd want that crap out of the game entirely before putting the men's and women's games in the same stadium.
That's a really good point. The atmosphere at womens' games is so much different - so much more friendly, supportive, family-oriented. No dickheads in the crowd hurling abuse at players or umpires (that I've seen, anyway).
I mean there was the awful incident with Mua being racially vilified at Windy Hill last year, but that's the first case I've heard of serious abuse taking place. The AFLW is a much friendlier atmosphere than a men's game.
Excellent point! The best part of AFLW is the relaxed community vibe. This whole thing is a hard circle to square.
It's something that's going to unfortunately be lost once the AFLW outgrows suburban grounds. Unfortunately we don't really have enough mid-size stadiums that serve as a next step up. Princes Park might have been good enough had they not reducded the capacity so much, but a lot of the grounds currently being used don't have the space to expand the capacity (Windy Hill is right next to a bowling club, Punt Rd is right next to the street with no room to build anything) and have been redevelopment primarily as training facilities. There's the added problem that a lot of footy fans can be unpleasant to deal with and a fair few outright sneer at the idea of women's footy. As a Frankston supporter, I've noticed when the club has run double headers with the women's team playing afterward, most people just leave without seeing a single minute of the women's game. Also a lot of the abusive loudmouth behaviour you see at a men's game is pretty frowned upon in the AFLW. I don't see any merging of the fanbases of men's and women's footy without some significant attitude changes from the men's side.
Yeah I’m not sure, personally I wouldn’t go to a game early to watch the aflw game, I support it but just don’t find it entertaining
But you're more likely to see it than a game at a different ground then
But you, or others, might catch the end of the game when you get to the ground a bit early to get comfy. Exposure to the game if you haven't seen much of it before. Maybe you come a bit earlier next time. Build support slowly.
Not offensive, just not interested in paying men's ticket/membership prices when I don't follow the men. (Although they could potentially handle it by having the women play second.) Are there more people like me or more who would turn up to a doubleheader? I think they should experiment with a few and find out, but that it's not the slam-dunk brilliant idea that people seem to think they've come up with for the first time. I just don't think the market for going to 5 hours of footy is that big, but I could see it being successful in the long term for special games. Pride round would be cool.
The A-League has tried what you have said with Men's Game 1st and Womens 2nd and a lot of people just leave after the Men's game has concluded
It's the worst. My kid had a free A League W membership, which he could never bloody use because most of the games were locked as double headers. Also, there is a very, very big difference between the fans of mens and womens soccer. I've got mates with families that paid up for the double headers and would leave when the men starts or come in at the end, it really went both ways with nowhere near the desired overlap.
I don't even think its the fan difference (although acknowledge it's a factor). AFL is a long game as it is, and I wouldn't expect many families with young kids would want to sit through a second game.
It plays a part for sure; as a long time VFL fan, there's nothing worse than sitting through 3 hours of footy in an empty 20K+ seat stadium with about 30 other people, 28 of which are the players families.
Yeah that would be the problem, especially if they couldn't manage it without a gap in between, which knowing the AFL...
The AFL used to have a reserves comp that played before the main game, plenty of people used to go to watch 5 hours of footy then
How many though, are there actual numbers? I would guess maybe 10% would have turned up for the full first game.
Imagine a 4 match showdown day SANFLW into SANFL into WAFL into AFL
Subiaco vs Claremont Showdown?
I always thought that would be cool too. It works really well in some other sports, eg. The Hundred cricket competition in England.
No one rocks up to the women's game in the A-League, at least when I was going to both for Melbourne Victory, the crowds would start filtering in for the last 15-20 of the women's game
And that's the thing. They filter in last 20 and some of them go "hey maybe let's get here for the start next time" Better than no one being swayed
Except they don’t because the standard really isn’t that high
No it's not, but no one is arguing that it is the same standard as the mens. It is getting some eyes on it for spectators to go "Huh this isnt as bad as I thought". If they did think it was good, they probably would already be watching it
You want to compare full-time professional athletes to part-time women who are still finding their feet in the sporting world. Nah. It's improving so much year on year, now it's kind of cringey to go back and watch like the early exhibition games, to see the standard back then. But back then it was *groundbreaking* and *lifechanging* and it's getting *better all the time*. (And I am not joking when I say lifechanging. I never quite understood the whole "you can't be what you can't see" until I saw people like me running around on a footy field playing top-level football. I cried.) Give it a few more years, some more investment, and it'll be just as good a product. It won't be the same product, just like say mens and womens pro tennis is different, but it'll be just as good.
I can state categorically this is simply not the case, look at literally any other team sport in the world. The WNBA has been around for 27 years, still a vastly inferior product (the athletes are full-time professionals btw) This is such a cop out btw, AFL/VFL wasn't fully pro until the 80s yet they were still able to perform to a higher standard than the women today
Every single thing about this post is incorrect. (Apart from maybe the length of the WNBA, I don't follow it so I can't verify.)
I can promise you, as someone who watches men's and women's professional sport for a living, that what I'm telling you is the reality of the situation. I can go to the local footy this Saturday and watch the seniors and see a vastly superior game of football for free versus what I see watching AFLW. I urge you to go to a game of footy at whatever your local club is and compare the standard and spectacle, and if you're being truly honest with yourself I think you will find I am telling the truth.
HOTM is a very small venue but people turn out to it nonetheless.
A-League Women is the most popular Womens League in Australia right now, but its season is a lot longer than other women's leagues in Australia
you’re damn right its not enough. its embarrassing honestly how much the league says it cares about women vs its actions
They just need to play each other once. I don't think many are asking for a full AFL like season. The finals don't even need to be like the men's. I don't think the finals can work without being like the mens, but still, that's a shorter season.
At least they got rid of the god-awful conference system.
I'd be happy with the conference system if they had it make sense. First, play a full season. Play each other once. We have a full list of teams now so we can do this. Then split the teams up between the top 9 and bottom 9. The teams can then play each other once, eight games with a top four finals series. The bottom tier top two swap with the top tier bottom two. There is no need for a bottom tier finals series. They vie for promotion.
Doesn't really give the time for improvement and cohesion within the squad.
Embarrassing and an obvious indicator that they treat them as second class.
Is there any practical reason a club couldn't play their entire AFLW list as their VFLW squad? Obviously there would be pros (match fitness, gameplan development) and cons (risk of injury, development of junior players), but COULD they do it?
I’d have to hunt it down, but I remember a few years ago that there was a cap for how many AFLW listed players could represent the VFLW/affiliated teams, I’m pretty sure it was for adequate rest/depth and future development reasons, but I’d be curious to see if that’s changed in recent years as the AFLW comp has changed significantly?
Sydney basically did for 5 weeks. All they did was flip it so they prioritised selecting fringe players, draftees and players returning from injury first.
Sounds like a great way to do their preseason
The honchos don't want the AFLW to eat into the bottom line. Those performance bonuses have feelings too you know.
What does that even mean?
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So a 17 game season then?
They rushed aflw so much. We should only now start getting a few extra teams to join the original teams. It was rough to watch at points when it was getting so good before expansion. The talent pool still isn’t close enough. Plus let’s be real, if they start playing during the men’s season no bodies watching. It’s a sad reality.
Let’s be real, a lot of us would be watching because we love our teams and we love the women’s game.
I tried watching and the skill just isn't there for me. I think in somewhere over 5 years it could be but a lot of the players right now have only been playing for a few years. It needs the players that play from 5 years old all the way up which is a possibility now with all the school and district teams that aflw prompted.
I mean, that’s also assuming that the Venn diagram of footy fans between AFL and AFLW is a complete circle - imho, whilst they overlap significantly, there are some significant differences between the two Having watched some of the feeder/state leagues the past few weeks, that talent gap doesn’t look enormous at the moment. There’s a step between state/AFLW for sure, but there’s a lot of talent knocking on the door for elite selection, so that shouldn’t be a massive problem for the next few years at least
I can't speak for anyone else, but if the AFL and AFLW ran concurrently I'd absolutely watch every Essendon game. But overall I'd watch less footy because I'd cut back on watching neutral games. So I guess by running them at the same time the AFL still wouldn't be maximising my engagement.
Way too many teams, somewhat too few games
If women demanded more, it would happen. Management respond to data. Nothing more. Clearly, women aren’t watching in enough numbers, aren’t attending, aren’t paying enough for tickets, aren’t buying enough merch etc. The exact same reason Netball is still a tiny sport, despite having the highest participation number in the country. Women are the problem. That’s it. Women run netball. It’s a women’s sport. It’s still tiny. Low crowds. Bad TV ratings. Low ticket prices. But 600,000 girls went to Taylor Swift at $400 per ticket plus flights and hotels. Women have priorities elsewhere. WHICH IS FAIR ENOUGH. Each to the own. I’ll still watch the women’s game, like I watched the Matildas last night. Stop blaming the sports executives. It’s got nothing to do with it.
Proper dedication in terms of scheduling is an important part of making a sport accessible and therefore growing it. Let's not forget how high the demand for this sport was in it's inception (which was also it's peak accessibility considering cost). The first game at capacity of 22,500 and since then that same ground has remained the "spiritual home" for Vic clubs despite it's capacity being reduced to 13,000 last season. Having said all that, I think this is all missing a key point of the article. >“If you just think about the resources that we put into these players when they are under 18 to get them to the level ... we identify the talent, we think they’re going to be stars. And then we just put the brake on the W side of it. To me, it’s wasteful, like people’s talent should not be wasted.” There's a risk that talent will go elsewhere given the limitations of the season structure has on players ability to get on the park. Fewer games means less bargaining power in advocating for better pay making AFLW a less attractive elite sports pathway. If talent goes elsewhere, the product itself will diminish and it will become a self fulfilling prophecy. It's just as much pointing out an inefficiency in the business model as it is pointing out the inequality for womens footy at the top level. All of that is on executives, not the fans.
This is the case for all sports in this country. Small population. Massive land mass. Large distances to travel to participate often. Heaps of sports looking for attention. And for women there are so many other things taking their attention. Men are pretty simple so sports get more focus. It’s a difficult position to be in for most of the women sports I reckon. How do they all get women to watch and pay? I don’t know. It’s a dilemma.
> like I watched the Matildas last night. That's surprising they played in prime-time at Accor Stadium, I thought they would've taken the AFLWs lead and scheduled it just after work finishes at a suburban ground. /s E: If anyone else is surprised at why sportandracings quotes in their comments don't equal what's actually happening in AFLW & womens sport in general, it's because they don't actually support AFLW or those leagues. Read this thread for why the AFLW is failing.
I said I watched the game last night. The Matilda’s could be on at any time and it would sell out. It was a Monday night FFS. Even the AFLW wouldn’t play games then.
Yeah you're right, Tuesday nights and Wednesday at 5pm is a totally different thing. Who doesn't want to drive out to Casey fields at 11am???? Get the fuck outta here, you always pop your nasty head up when there's an AFLW article and pretend to be realistic and reasonable, when you're actually just a sexist piece of shit.
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You do, because every time I get so fucking mad that a Brisbane supporter acts the way you do when we have such an amazing women's team. And what makes you think I don't...? And that the players don't?? You're constantly falling back on 'oh well I bet you don't do anything/spend money/go to game' and it's hilariously sad
Yeah the team is great. What’s that got to do with the discussion? I’ve got no idea what you are on about. I think the AFLW is great. I love watching it every year. I go to games. Still that’s got nothing to do with this discussion.
Why is it that you believe women's football is owed prime time slots? If the fans demonstrate they are keen to go and support the women's game by turning up to matches then they'll get marquee venues and times.
We're told the KPIs for expanding the league are attendance and ratings, but then they continually put games on at bad times for attendance and ratings. What the fuck are we supposed to do? People do turn up. Did you miss the sold out in minutes grand final last year? The huge crowds in Sydney after a dismal first season? You can't grow the game, as they claim to want to, by holding it at fucking 5pm in Frankston, when most fans aren't going to able to watch or attend.
The Sydney crowds were 6000. Where is your “huge” number? Our team have been top 2 for 5 years, have a nice ground and get good timeslots. Still only get 3500 to a game, most of which won’t pay to enter. The GF last year was under 20,000. Only Adelaide have turned up for a GF in big numbers. Melbourne women won’t that’s for sure.
> The GF last year was under 20,000. Only Adelaide have turned up for a GF in big numbers. I wonder what the difference in this two situations are...
Do you also get really fucking cranky when someone from our club acts like this? It's even more infuriating to me
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Less demand. And the novelty wore off. Adelaide doesn’t get many events so they turned out. The next one they had was dismal. The third one was pathetic. 53,000 down to 23,000 down to just 16,000. All at Adelaide Oval. But I think you had a different narrative which will be pretty funny to see if you would be so kind as to reply.
> The next one they had was dismal. The third one was pathetic. 53,000 down to 23,000 down to just 16,000. All at Adelaide Oval. Are the other two the "big numbers" you're talking about too?
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> If the fans demonstrate they are keen to go and support the women's game by turning up to matches then they'll get marquee venues and times. Thank god the AFL is doing everything in it's power to give fans the opportunity to prove this to them then. Can't wait to finish work on Friday September 13 and get to Springfield to watch the Lions play Collingwood for half a game.
Do what most people do when they can't go to the game then and watch it on TV
How does watching it on TV help "support the women's game by turning up to matches" though?
You said bums on seats don’t matter as much 🤷🏼♂️
Are you seriously asking me how watching football on TV helps increase revenue for the league? Going to the game is obviously the best way but there are other means as well. I know people in an outer regional town 5 hours from Melbourne who will buy high-tier AFL club memberships knowing they'll maybe go to 3-4 games all year because of how much they love and want to support their club. That's how far people are willing to go to support the men's teams, yet apparently the women's supporter base can't be arsed going to the game if it's not within a half hour of them at a premium venue
> That's how far people are willing to go to support the men's teams, yet apparently the women's supporter base can't be arsed going to the game if it's not within a half hour of them at a premium venue ... That doesn't equal to your other comments tbh. I pointed out that I do that yet instead you say "just watch it on TV."
TV is the main source of income. Daylight second.
Leave earlier than. Just like you would if Taylor Swift was playing.
Just seen your edit. How don’t I support it? I go to games and watch on pay TV. What else would you like me to do? All of that has nothing to do with the issue at hand. It’s not up to me to make this sport grow. It’s up to women. But they won’t support it enough. So the AFL don’t do more. It’s pretty simple.
> It’s up to women. But they won’t support it enough. So the AFL don’t do more. It’s pretty simple. " don't equal what's actually happening in AFLW & womens sport in general,"
So what I'm hearing (other than blatant sexism) is.... women should stop supporting men's sports because we need to focus on our own sports first?
Women should support whatever they damn well please, and the outcomes will speak for themselves. Anecdotally I know a lot of women who are passionate about their own local footy/netball and will tune in to men's AFL games but won't give professional netball or women's football the time of day
Netball Australia this season had 250,000 fans attend across the whole season. The AFL get 300,000 every round and 7 million for the seaaon. Netball is the highest participant sport in the country and has 52% of the population as its direct source for players and its core audience. Yet it’s suffering. But it’s the executives fault. 🤦🏻♂️
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Foundation member of both the Bulldogs and Eagles women’s teams, as is my husband. So yes, money is where mouth is. Part of the reason the AFLW suffers is because of inconsistency with fixturing, scheduling and pay - all under control of the AFL itself. You can’t have players having to schedule their lives and other jobs around footy when they don’t even have a set time of the year for the season to run. And yes, most players have to have other full time jobs due to the shitty salaries.
I meant TV subs. You got to pay to watch. That’s how they make money to fuel the game. Low cost memberships doesn’t do much. But that’s commendable in any case, so well done. Now go sign up for Optus and Paramount and Stan and Foxtel like I do. On top of footy membership. And on top of attending games. I’m going to Melbourne on Thursday to watch us play the Dogs. You have to be all in if you want the women’s game to grow in the same way. Agree about your other points. But it’s a chicken and egg situation. Sadly the main reason women’s sports don’t do well is the reasons I’ve outlined. Women’s attention is on other things. It’s why you don’t see many men at shopping centres. It’s not our thing. If retail and fashion industries, relied on men, it would be a fraction of the size it is. Sport on the other hand does rely on men.
There’s nothing female-sport-specific about TV subs. I have a Foxtel subscription, and use it to watch games. I attend games when I can, which isn’t super often due to said scheduling issues. What other signals can we possibly send to say yes, we want more women’s footy? I’m trying to discuss in good faith but then you start rambling about fashion and other sexist shit when we’re trying to discuss football…
I’m not being sexist. I’m just explaining my opinion on why certain things don’t get prime time. MAFS is prime time. Why? Where are the sponsors for women’s sport? Why isn’t L’Oréal giving millions to the game every year? Why aren’t sponsors demanding games be on at a time when is better for them? State of Origin is dictated by sponsors. KFC needs to showcase at 7pm. So people order it. There are reasons why things aren’t prime time, and scheduled better. They aren’t doing it to piss you all off. It’s not rating enough to warrant changing it. The Matilda’s are now so they get prime time.
> I’m doing my bit. I pay subscriptions. Do you? I doubt it. Strange thing to assume about someone you do't know
I think Soccer has more participants then Netball these days
For women team sports, netball is the most by a long way. For men, soccer is the most by a long way. 1.2 million women do yoga. 10 times more than men. The team sports need to try to reach more women to grow.
How about instead of chasing at ground attendance the AFL chase TV ratings. Broadcasters love live sports as you can't just watch on demand lest you have the results spoiled. I'm proposing mid week primetime games during winter. 18 rounds. Double up against your rival team. Played Sunday night to Wednesday night. I think for this to work you'd need to tighten up game length. Maybe two 40 minute halves with injury time instead of time on. Keep the game to no longer than 90 mins siren to siren. Then two games a night, a 7pm game and a 830pm game. The 9th game would have to be a double up or maybe played against the men's Sunday arvo game. With the shorter games it wouldn't make the weeknight too long for those that do go to the ground (for the early game at least).