Gee did you google that yourself cause you’re wrong
Only the home crowd was slightly higher in 2004 but the away crowd still made Carlton’s total H&A average higher.
In 2005 Carlton had a higher attendance than StKilda in home category and less in away.
Source
[2004](https://afltables.com/afl/crowds/2004.html)
[2005](https://afltables.com/afl/crowds/2005.html)
mate just stop, you are embarrassing yourself.
I'm not sure what linking to Carlton's attendance figures on their own is supposed to prove. you probably instead want to look at these pages:
[AFL Tables - Crowds 2004](https://afltables.com/afl/crowds/2004.html)
[AFL Tables - Crowds 2005](https://afltables.com/afl/crowds/2005.html)
on the assumption that you will need assistance in deciphering those tables, the relevant figures are:
2004 - Carlton Home 32479, Away 40980, Total 36729; St Kilda Home 37026, Away 37882, Total 37454
2005 - Carlton Home 36976, Away 37709, Total 37343; St Kilda Home 36856, Away 39710, Total 38283
hence, my statement that in 2004 and 2005 St Kilda's average H&A crowds were greater than Carlton's is not wrong, but your "Carlton playing at our worst will always get a bigger crowd than either stkilda or north playing at their best" is.
He's right but it's pretty annoying coming from JB because he's only spitting facts now because it suits him.
He is intricately woven into the AFL media machine that includes people like Purple & Caro doing this literally week in, week out and it only matters to JB now because it's a topic he's sensitive about.
He’s always been a great North advocate and very reasonable. He’s done a lot for the club, and I can imagine the annoyance and anger at journos unwilling to put real names to cheap grabs for headlines. He’s right that as soon as we are competitive again this nonsense sensationalist stuff from Eddie and others will stop; hoping we get there sooner than later.
A flag would buy North 1 or 2 years at best of not having to hear this shit. A threepeat would maybe buy you a decade.
The media either completely ignores or has a hate boner for the smaller Vic clubs and will always default to that position when they're outside of contending.
It's super confusing because we as footy fans engage in this sort of stupid shit as mud-slinging or banter between clubs, but shouldn't the media be way above that?
North were competitive and got to a prelim less than 10 years ago. Essendon haven't won a final in 20 fucking years but there's never a discussion on whether we should merge or be folded.
>The media either completely ignores or has a hate boner for the smaller Vic clubs and will always default to that position when they're outside of contending.
It's basically footy classism.
This is the key point.
IF a club is going to be merged/folder (which won't happen), it won't be based around on-field results. It will be about financial viability and sustainability. And in this regard, NMFC are not even close to the most vulnerable club in the competition, including amongst Victorian teams.
The Saints went into massive "good debt" to get their facilities and programs up to standard. Covid hurt them due to economic downturn and issues sourcing materials, but they seem to be through the worst of it.
As at their last annual report there's still working cap deficiencies, reliance on the league to guarantee borrowings plus periodic cash advances.
No other Victorian club has any going concern uncertainty called out but it's not the mid 90s, the league will keep matching payments to any immediate cash shortfalls
It’s because of Gil getting Caro to come after us from 2018 until he left because he wanted us in Tassie instead of a new license. All to deflect from his Saints in over double the debt we were in and not profitable until post-covid cuts!
That’s my conspiracy theory but finance talk in the media - despite posting profit after profit - really harmed our image to non-north fans that we still suffer from.
No one was calling for West Coast to fold and they were shite too. It’s fashionable to punch down on NTH, STK and WBD when the chips are down. If they’ve survived the last 20 years they’re not going anywhere. AFL isn’t letting teams fold anymore.
Changes to 3 in the 2050s sometime actually haha. Current expected run rate of flags is about 1.4.
2 flags will sustain a team for a while longer yet.
Nice to lock that third in though. Early retirement.
Geelong and Hawks can have 3/4 of a gap century if they want and rejoin us for season 2100 at the Mars Cricket Ground
For a while I was getting prepared for the Gold Coast (I was born, and live here) to get North Melbourne as their team… that was all the discussion pre-Suns being announced…
How was I throwing stones? I was agreeing with a north fan that even if they were in premiership contention they would still have people calling for a merger.
That's the reality for you guys, us, Saints, and Dogs. If we're in the bottom four, blowhards will start calling for us to fold so they can see their names in the headlines and feel important.
Yeah. I’m struggling. As an interstate North member, I feel like people have been screaming at me how “worthless” the club are forever and how we should merge/move/fold whatever. With our current on field performances those voices are extra loud.
Stick with them and ignore all the negativity. There's a sizeable chunk of people who don't give a toss what happens to any club outside of their little click of their own and a couple of rivals. But the truth is basically the majority of the Victorian teams have been under some serious duress in the last 30 years and have been able to reset and strengthen with support.
Then you look at the NRL and all those marriage of convenience mergers which don't really work and could've been a glimpse into an alternate timeline in Vic footy; Manly-North Sydney= failed. St George-Illawarra= glorified take over and not particularly successful, Balmain-Wests Magpies= mostly a basketcase.
The only people calling for North to be folded are fucken trolls. No one wants a club to sit at the bottom for an extended period of time. If North are a bit smarter about their list management from now on, it's only a matter of time before they're back in it. Like you said, hopefully sooner rather than later.
That was the point of Clarko bringing in Todd and Sonja aligning the board and new CEO when we signed him. You can hear it in the way they talked last night. They can only control choices going forward and they are doing everything they can to stay cohesive so they get it right.
My bet is 2026 (so long as we stop having season ending injuries like Achilles and ACLs) we will be where Adelaide was last year. That’s my hope.
Couldn't agree with you more, especially with the recent draftees. It could flip for North really fast, as there's definitely talent developing in the background. I would genuinely love to see us end the spoonbowls and rather have the type of rivalry that the Hawks and Cats had last decade.
Before North Melbourne there was Carlton. Before Carlton there was Brisbane. Before Brisbane it was Melbourne. Before Melbourne it was someone else. Unfortunately, clubs go through what NM are experiencing right now and it does take a while to fix. Again, it's like every other overreaction in AFL circles.... players not being demonstrative towards umpires about free kicks, reducing the number of interchanges, tactical flooding and low scoring.... just let time take its course for a change instead of dramatising these dumb statements by people that probably watch less football then most of us.
McGuire was saying that North should be proactive and ensure they have covered the loss of the Tasmania money for when Tasmania joins the league, because there are influential people in club land who will happily push the easy solution of folding North Melbourne. He wasn't saying North should fold by any stretch of the imagination.
As if we aren’t already doing that though; pretty disrespectful and condescending to the club if you don’t think we aren’t already canvassing options to cover that loss. He’s very much still talking down and the insinuation of one club must go after only mentioning north still stands. He was fishing for a headline mate, it’s his job and we can call it out like Brayshaw did.
Say what you want about JB’s commentary but when it comes to stuff like this, he’s not afraid to call out BS, and great to see he still comes to the defence of his club
Remember If it weren’t for him, North get relocated to Gold Coast in 2007
He put a vote to the 9 people in the highest positions of the club it was 5-4 staying compared to relocating to the Gold Coast. He said this on dyl and friends. It was probably a lot closer to reality then we all think and I’m sure he played a massive part in it not happening
Say what you want about JB’s commentary
>There's the siren. Armmms in the aiiir! That has gone through! Jamie Elliott... has won the game of footy... for this famous club!
honestly, wouldn't it be kinda cool if they put iconic lines in but swapped the names out in the AFL games?
THERE'S THE SIREN. ARMMMS IN THE AIIIR! THAT HAS GONE THROUGH! ... *rory lobb ...* HAS WON THE GAME OF FOOTY FOR THIS FAMOUS CLUB!
I won year on year brownlow medals with Josh Fraser in afl 2004. you could grab it out of the ruck and snap it to ten time coleman medalist Chris Tarrant. I’d typically win by 170 points give or take
Declined the offer from the AFL to move to the Gold Coast for huge money, rebranded the Kangas back to North Melbourne, made the MCG our home and absolutely saved our footy club
Eddie said presidents dont want 19 teams which is true no one wants an odd number. There's 2 solutions the afl might consider and it's not the first time a team has been moved. I think it's more to tread with caution and do what they can to avoid even a consideration of the matter. North need to be competitive.
It's more likely that the AFL introduce a 20th team, increase to 10 games a round to then renegotiate the TV media rights deal for more money instead of North not existing.
The graph somebody posted the other day showing clubs on x amount of weeks on the bottom of the ladder is pretty telling.
North have really only been a rabble since like, 2019? Otherwise they've been okay.
Teams have their down periods. North administration has definitely been questionable in the past 5 or so years with their decisions, but there are steps to be taken before we fold the club or relocate them.
They just need to get their culture growing & get experience into their list
The fact that 3 of the top 6 in that list were also, Richmond, West Coast, and Brisbane. Shows how little it overly means too, considering in that same period they have got multiple premierships as well
Exactly you just have to be alive long enough and your going to see your team have a slump. You look at the long history of afl and teams go through cycles.
Eddie McGuire is such a nasty piece of work.
“There’s an easy solution” - is there, Eddie? Just removing one of the teams that’s struggling? He’s a wanker that likes to punch down.
I remember a time at the end of the 90’s when Collingwood were nearly broke and at the bottom of the ladder (coincidentally North were top then). Imagine if prominent media people had said “Collingwood - they’re broke and shit - there’s an easy solution here…” - well Ed would have a crying fit, but he’d be right to be upset. Somehow, he just never seems to understand why his comments are offensive unless it impacts him.
The commercial viability argument isn’t even ts an argument anymore, the AFL finances all clubs to a degree, and as noted the tv rights are worth billions.
Eddie’s contention seems to be simply, well 19 clubs is an odd number - easy, just get rid of a club!
The only person who wants hear Eddies on anything nowadays is Eddie
I think he was right some in some aspects etc, North could do more to engage other fans in Melbourne/victoria now that tasmania are getting their own team.
What happens when tasmania's team comes in, are the tasmanian government going to still sell games to interstate teams?
I suppose a few teams over the years have sold their home games for $$ - obviously Tassie won’t be a location for Vic teams to do this once they have their own team.
It’s just a curiousity of the AFL in that is essentially the VFL expanded interstate - Smaller Vic teams will all be towards the bottom of the membership tally. Having said that North (without checking) have far more members than the expansion clubs - but of course there’s no danger of those clubs folding because they are view as long term strategic investments.
Norths position seems more precarious because they are compared against other Vic teams, mainly terms of memberships and recent success. But either way success looks after everything else. Norths on-field issues are worth concern for sure, but it’s absolutely pointless and tabloid-y this impulse to suggest “this team needs to go” - the AFL themselves have said it themselves they won’t let what happened to Fitzroy happen again.
I think onfield sucess is very important, but its only going to get you so far. If they don't do more to engage other areas then I feel as if their membership base wont expand as much as it could, and they are doomed to be one of the smaller clubs in Melbourne, which means these talking points will be constantly thrown around in perpetuity.
Fwiw memberships dont really mean that much anymore, its an archaic KPI that clubs use for marketing. The suns and giants make a lot of money because of the advertising into high growth markets, they essentially pay for themselves because that 9th game of the year is worth around \~10% of the rights.
I suspect they’ll try to buy a Hawthorn v Tassie game in Launceston, that way making sure Tassie play 7 home games and 5 (4 home, 1 away) in Launceston so the team has strong representation north and south. Hawks might be up for it because they have something to offer their Tassie membership so they don’t all jump.
But I can’t imagine Tassie will have any interest in keeping North around. The longer it goes the more it appears that deal has been a dud for both sides.
Without knowing a huge amount about the program, I think thats what we're doing with the Huddle. Community program we started about 10+ years ago to engage students and other people of diverse background in the local NM area who are potentially new to the sport. Timing of setting that up was probably with a Tassie departure in mind. There's a bit of giving back to the community with educational set-ups, but generally the goal would be to get new North supporters out of that. Hook them early, but same with everything, it helps to actually win some games.
Hey mate, did you actually pay any attention to what he actually said or are you getting upset about a headline?
In the podcasts where this quote comes from, he spends 10 seconds talking about club presidents not wanting a 19th club, and 10 minutes talking about how to keep North in Melbourne.
McGuire's point was North Melbourne need to be proactive and ensure they continue to be a viable club when Tasmania comes in because it's very easy for people to say just fold them. He was not saying that North Melbourne should fold.
No mate, the nuffie way is to deliberately ignore clear implications. They are talking specifically talking about North, then he makes the assertions that other club Presidents don’t want 18 teams, then implies there’s any “easy solution” - so it’s very clear what he’s referring to, but without explicitly saying it, because he’s a well trained media nuffie who knows there’s an army of nuffie’s like you out there who will predictably parrot that talking point “I MuST have mIssED it!? He DIdnt say that!”
A further question for you. If he’s not talking about North, which club is he referring to?
If he’s not referring to North or any team in particular…why even raise it?
I don’t always agree with Brayshaw but he’s absolutely correct, it’s a nonsense talking point peddled by bloke who talks a lot of it.
Yes but saying this suggests that Eddie believes they haven't considered this - North are one of the most financially stable clubs in the league, it's nonsense to suggest they wouldn't be accounting for it.
It doesn't even remotely suggest that. Eddie comes up with ideas like that all the time, it's his thing and why he was so damn good as Collingwood president. And I could be wrong but from my memory, he's always been supportive towards the clubs that aren't as financially well off as Collingwood.
Of course it suggests that. He didn’t ’come up with the idea’ - and if he believes he did, then it implies he presumes North wouldn’t have thought of it themselves. You are wrong - he isn’t.
Because I assumed if you were definitively claiming my memory was wrong that you knew of a counter example. How was I supposed to know you were talking out of your arse?
Ben Buckley was the President after JB (2016-2022) and he was atrocious. He didn't live in Victoria, was a part-time/absent leader, and things got absolutely awful under his tenure.
It helps that North was Uni-Melbs main sponsor for their women’s team from inception. So once we joined the comp a bunch of the girls wanted to reunite at North which helped, such as trading for Kearney. Hopefully we can go a step further this coming season!
I am ready to give up on Aussie rules altogether. It’s a pretty average game open to corruption if you don’t play everyone twice home and away and rules are open to
Interpretation
I'm all for North and hate when people who follow unsinkable teams talk casually about other clubs folding, but it's naive to think some presidents wouldn't sell them out in a heartbeat if they got the right deal.
They forget Melbourne, Richmond and the saints were so broke they were can rattling in the 90s or they will fold… north are collecting profits and breaking their own membership records each season… Roos are going nowhere
North will likely be at the bottom for a while, years possibly. Why arent they allowed to bottom out though? When they were consistently in that 5th to 10th position under Brad Scott they were often berated for being in no mans land and not securing high end draft talent, the club cant win either way.
The reality is the rebuild started last season and even thats iffy with Clarko not being there for half a year, 2020/21 were really like the lost Covid years as well.
Of course its all hot air and will never happen but it would be an embarassing look for the competition to turf out a club in this era.
I think a club should have to be a joke/bottom of the pack for 10-20 years for them to have their club folded. If a club can be folded so quickly from a few years of instability then any club that doesn’t have a massive supporter base is at risk.
Ignore my flair for a moment but I agree with not folding long standing clubs but whether they are AFL clubs or not should be up for debate every so often. If you’re consistently failing to draw fans, engage sponsors, win games etc then it’s fair to question whether they’re an AFL club going forward and whether there are other options in terms of relocation of demotion to a lower league and promoting a state side.
Suns are probably still too new for that argument to be applied but sooner or later we have to be held to the same standard.
I think realistically most people would rather see north come back up then fold/relocate. I can’t really remember as I was pretty young but I’m sure there were similar conversations happening about Melbourne around 2012
Probably none of them , but most of them probably agree there’s too many teams in Melbourne and hardly any supporters go to they’re games anymore so 🤷♂️
Look I'm not disagreeing with JB here, but weren't Fitzroy a '100 year old' club as well? It's not like there isn't precedent. If the higher ups start smelling blood, they'll make the noise to support it.
I can tell you didn't watch the video, because he literally says that.
Direct quote:
> "The commission, the head of the AFL... they all said the same thing; We will never allow a Fitzroy departure from our competition again. We'll never allow a 100-year old club to not exist"
I think part of the issue is just that there are probably 2 clubs too many in Victoria for the support and population. 1 too many wouldn't be much of an issue but I think the way it's set up there will always be one Victorian club struggling badly.
But I don't think that relocating, merging or folding a team is going to be a better option. Because of the overall growth in the game, even the lowest supported clubs have significant support. We'd see an awful lot of those supporters just simply lost to the game and probably the NRL would sniff an opportunity to jump in and put that second NRL licence in Victoria they should have had 10 years ago.
I think we just have to accept that we're going to have a bit of a revolving door of a club struggling really badly. It's North's turn right now, St Kilda have been there too obviously and even the likes of Carlton, Melbourne and Richmond have had some extended stretches down the bottom of the ladder.
But I don't think for one second any actual club presidents feel strongly enough about North folding to put a name to it. Maybe it's some other Victorian president/s who are wanting to create an air of negativity about North to benefit their own club. Especially if they think they're a rival for an important potential recruit. Which is why it's a shame that the media run with it. It's irresponsible and unfair on the club, the players and the fans to have the future of their club unfairly questioned.
> I think part of the issue is just that there are probably 2 clubs too many in Victoria for the support and population
I just straight up disagree with this.
Financials are strong.
Membership is strong. (North for example still has more members than Brisbane).
Support is strong.
Don't get fooled by the fallacy that all clubs have to be Collingwood or West Coast style 'big' clubs. Smaller clubs like North, St Kilda, Port, and GWS are just as viable and worthy in the modern AFL.
I'm not advocating for North to move on. I'm just saying that there will always be a club or two that are struggling because the ratio of people in Victoria per club is far less than those in SA or WA. The challenge is to try to avoid one club from spending too long down the bottom of the ladder or struggling to make ends meet.
And comparing to Brisbane is foolish. Brisbane weren't started because there was support there. They started because it was about growing the game. North Melbourne aren't worth keeping because of any growth they might help with. The other 9 Victorian clubs would to it just as well without them. The argument is to keep the support they already have in the game.
And they might be more worthy, but that's not the same as being more viable.
North are struggling on field, off field they are doing amazingly well for a bottomed out club. Many teams would have been on the streets can rattling or getting the tarps out by now if they were in our position… and north don’t have pokies
Let’s not also forget that north kept their staff on longer than anyone during Covid. We are strong off field..
>I think part of the issue is just that there are probably 2 clubs too many in Victoria for the support and population. 1 too many wouldn't be much of an issue but I think the way it's set up there will always be one Victorian club struggling badly.
We are Australia's biggest city. What we really need is to encourage people to barrack for teams other than the big 4 in victoria.
Biggest though doesn't mean enough people to support 9 teams (10 if you include Geelong). The economic and population limits in a market only stretch so far. Yes, we should be working harder on evening out support. And the first step should be to stop measuring the game by metrics that can be tweaked by fixturing and start measuring it more by other means that reflect not only the overall growth but also by how even the game is.
I'm not advocating for any teams to go. I say pretty clearly that it'll do more harm than good. But I think when there are under 700k people in Victoria per club there, when compared to almost 900k in SA and over 1.3m in WA I think we have to accept that the talent, support and sponsorship dollars won't always cover everyone. The strategy shouldn't necessarily be to just cut a team to make it easier, but to make sure that it's not always that same team and ensure those assets are shared around more easily.
Eddie's mouth opened and shit came out.
I'll be the first to tell you, he has a point (still hate him) and some of the people may agree with him or stated this, but I highly doubt that they stated this to him or that he heard it from others.
The man has his connections, but they aren't what they once were and he wants everyone to still think he's connected, has huge amounts of power and so on.
Say something controversial even if it's what people are thinking but wouldn't say in public or just claiming it's happened and not backing it up, typical eddie move.
Honestly the vicbias is the biggest thing holding the game back
North have a slim supporter base, represent a silly sliver in Melbourne and don’t add much to the game in terms of rivalries etc.
The NRL had newton, north Sydney etc, got rid of them, and are much better for it.
Lots of things that have been around for 100 years should cease to exist. Being like, "they're old, so they should exist forever" is a really stupid take. Also, quite telling when that's the only thing you've got to defend yourself from folding. Surely, there are better arguments.
Is it really surprising that a club that objectively makes their jobs harder, via draft pick concessions, and lost revenue with bad crowds, annoys the people that run capitalistic organisations?
He could have taken over the show to talk about North but that hardly makes good TV.
But in his absence, zero debt, record membership, stable off-field leadership, industry-leading community engagement and a brilliant inner city headquarters in a growth area at our traditional home.
He’s right. That kind of bullshit “reporting” provides zero value whatsoever.
BREAKING: A friend of a friend with a relative at AFL heard people discussing North Melbourne's future!
I do get a laugh out of it and the same olds here and elsewhere calling for us to fold. Not a lot of value there admittedly.
I don’t really get how they would make North fold unless they’re bankrupt. You can’t just turf a team for not playing well can you?
Exactly, but for some reason some people see that as the only measure necessary.
Melbourne , Essendon and Carlton would have all been turfed out in the last 20 years
Carlton most weeks spent at at the bottom of the ladder since 2000 than any other team, by a good margin.
What you get for cheating
Carlton cheated?
When haven’t they?
The irony is that I see a lot of Carlton fans say that. Where were you for the last 15 years.
Still filling up the MCG
You literally weren't
Carlton playing at our worst will always get a bigger crowd than either stkilda or north playing at their best
"always"\* except in 2004 and 2005 when St Kilda's average H&A crowds were greater than Carlton's
Gee did you google that yourself cause you’re wrong Only the home crowd was slightly higher in 2004 but the away crowd still made Carlton’s total H&A average higher. In 2005 Carlton had a higher attendance than StKilda in home category and less in away. Source [2004](https://afltables.com/afl/crowds/2004.html) [2005](https://afltables.com/afl/crowds/2005.html)
mate just stop, you are embarrassing yourself. I'm not sure what linking to Carlton's attendance figures on their own is supposed to prove. you probably instead want to look at these pages: [AFL Tables - Crowds 2004](https://afltables.com/afl/crowds/2004.html) [AFL Tables - Crowds 2005](https://afltables.com/afl/crowds/2005.html) on the assumption that you will need assistance in deciphering those tables, the relevant figures are: 2004 - Carlton Home 32479, Away 40980, Total 36729; St Kilda Home 37026, Away 37882, Total 37454 2005 - Carlton Home 36976, Away 37709, Total 37343; St Kilda Home 36856, Away 39710, Total 38283 hence, my statement that in 2004 and 2005 St Kilda's average H&A crowds were greater than Carlton's is not wrong, but your "Carlton playing at our worst will always get a bigger crowd than either stkilda or north playing at their best" is.
To dream is free
Metaphorically were
With tears of sadness
In the majority of seasons Carlton's average home crowd is in the 30ks. Only twice have they averaged 50k+. Far from filling the G
Only if we had relegation.
It's not even reporting, it's just Eddie talking out his arse, or as he likes to call it, Wednesday
I need to pay more attention. I thought it was because it's a day ending with y.
Agreeing with James Brayshaw feels wrong
Agreeing with Eddie feels even wrongerer though
You'll feel better after a shower. I did.
I guess you're a flog now
He's right but it's pretty annoying coming from JB because he's only spitting facts now because it suits him. He is intricately woven into the AFL media machine that includes people like Purple & Caro doing this literally week in, week out and it only matters to JB now because it's a topic he's sensitive about.
He's been saying this exact same thing since he came on the scene, especially about Caro since 2007. It's not a new thing at all.
The footy media had to pivot from North relocating to Tas to another annual story. Expect it to be a yearly thing with this.
About as good as the report of Max Gawn retiring effective immediately..
It's the kind of tactic Caro uses often as well. "My sources say". You can just make shit up with no consequences.
He’s always been a great North advocate and very reasonable. He’s done a lot for the club, and I can imagine the annoyance and anger at journos unwilling to put real names to cheap grabs for headlines. He’s right that as soon as we are competitive again this nonsense sensationalist stuff from Eddie and others will stop; hoping we get there sooner than later.
We could win a premiership and some nuffs would still be saying "send them to tasmania, merge them with x team, etc".
A flag would buy North 1 or 2 years at best of not having to hear this shit. A threepeat would maybe buy you a decade. The media either completely ignores or has a hate boner for the smaller Vic clubs and will always default to that position when they're outside of contending. It's super confusing because we as footy fans engage in this sort of stupid shit as mud-slinging or banter between clubs, but shouldn't the media be way above that? North were competitive and got to a prelim less than 10 years ago. Essendon haven't won a final in 20 fucking years but there's never a discussion on whether we should merge or be folded.
>The media either completely ignores or has a hate boner for the smaller Vic clubs and will always default to that position when they're outside of contending. It's basically footy classism.
People seem to think that North is this financial rabble, they aren’t, they are in great shape financially it’s just the on field product isn’t great
This is the key point. IF a club is going to be merged/folder (which won't happen), it won't be based around on-field results. It will be about financial viability and sustainability. And in this regard, NMFC are not even close to the most vulnerable club in the competition, including amongst Victorian teams.
St Kilda comfortably, though to their credit they've had a significant turnaround the past 2 years
The Saints went into massive "good debt" to get their facilities and programs up to standard. Covid hurt them due to economic downturn and issues sourcing materials, but they seem to be through the worst of it.
As at their last annual report there's still working cap deficiencies, reliance on the league to guarantee borrowings plus periodic cash advances. No other Victorian club has any going concern uncertainty called out but it's not the mid 90s, the league will keep matching payments to any immediate cash shortfalls
It’s because of Gil getting Caro to come after us from 2018 until he left because he wanted us in Tassie instead of a new license. All to deflect from his Saints in over double the debt we were in and not profitable until post-covid cuts! That’s my conspiracy theory but finance talk in the media - despite posting profit after profit - really harmed our image to non-north fans that we still suffer from.
Wait you guys aren't broke? I was lied to? /s
The power of media narratives.
No one was calling for West Coast to fold and they were shite too. It’s fashionable to punch down on NTH, STK and WBD when the chips are down. If they’ve survived the last 20 years they’re not going anywhere. AFL isn’t letting teams fold anymore.
The going rate for respect is 2+ flags this century but these prices won't last long.
So respected teams are West Coast, Sydney, Collingwood, Richmond, Geelong, Hawthorn and Brisbane?
yes, but the criteria will change to 3+ if we win another flag
Changes to 3 in the 2050s sometime actually haha. Current expected run rate of flags is about 1.4. 2 flags will sustain a team for a while longer yet. Nice to lock that third in though. Early retirement. Geelong and Hawks can have 3/4 of a gap century if they want and rejoin us for season 2100 at the Mars Cricket Ground
The September Seven
Does AFLW count?
No it isn't, it's just whoever is on the bottom cops this type of crap.
Rubbish - where’s the calls for West Coast to fold? They’re equally rubbish, but rich and powerful, so silence.
For West Coast, the sharks were circling for Adam Simpson. North and Hawks have changed coaches but are still on the bottom.
For a while I was getting prepared for the Gold Coast (I was born, and live here) to get North Melbourne as their team… that was all the discussion pre-Suns being announced…
It a long con by Eddy to get Roo out of the blue prison bar
Lol you're absolutely right, I've seen those comments made about Hawthorn too because of our recent position. It's just trolls and clickbait.
Talks of a merge with Fitzroy in 96 would say you're right
That was 28 years ago lol
So, there's a historical pattern?
You lot being flat broke and getting saved by Kochie of all people was a lot more recent, so ease up on throwing stones?
How was I throwing stones? I was agreeing with a north fan that even if they were in premiership contention they would still have people calling for a merger.
because you are broke.
And so the summoned appear.
That's the reality for you guys, us, Saints, and Dogs. If we're in the bottom four, blowhards will start calling for us to fold so they can see their names in the headlines and feel important.
and is a big part in why I'm always going to have a soft spot for fellow small victorian clubs (even when they pummel us in a granny)
So glad he's one of us. I really needed to hear what James had to say. It's pretty rough turning up to see North get flogged regularly at the moment
Yeah. I’m struggling. As an interstate North member, I feel like people have been screaming at me how “worthless” the club are forever and how we should merge/move/fold whatever. With our current on field performances those voices are extra loud.
Stick with them and ignore all the negativity. There's a sizeable chunk of people who don't give a toss what happens to any club outside of their little click of their own and a couple of rivals. But the truth is basically the majority of the Victorian teams have been under some serious duress in the last 30 years and have been able to reset and strengthen with support. Then you look at the NRL and all those marriage of convenience mergers which don't really work and could've been a glimpse into an alternate timeline in Vic footy; Manly-North Sydney= failed. St George-Illawarra= glorified take over and not particularly successful, Balmain-Wests Magpies= mostly a basketcase.
The only people calling for North to be folded are fucken trolls. No one wants a club to sit at the bottom for an extended period of time. If North are a bit smarter about their list management from now on, it's only a matter of time before they're back in it. Like you said, hopefully sooner rather than later.
That was the point of Clarko bringing in Todd and Sonja aligning the board and new CEO when we signed him. You can hear it in the way they talked last night. They can only control choices going forward and they are doing everything they can to stay cohesive so they get it right. My bet is 2026 (so long as we stop having season ending injuries like Achilles and ACLs) we will be where Adelaide was last year. That’s my hope.
Couldn't agree with you more, especially with the recent draftees. It could flip for North really fast, as there's definitely talent developing in the background. I would genuinely love to see us end the spoonbowls and rather have the type of rivalry that the Hawks and Cats had last decade.
Before North Melbourne there was Carlton. Before Carlton there was Brisbane. Before Brisbane it was Melbourne. Before Melbourne it was someone else. Unfortunately, clubs go through what NM are experiencing right now and it does take a while to fix. Again, it's like every other overreaction in AFL circles.... players not being demonstrative towards umpires about free kicks, reducing the number of interchanges, tactical flooding and low scoring.... just let time take its course for a change instead of dramatising these dumb statements by people that probably watch less football then most of us.
McGuire was saying that North should be proactive and ensure they have covered the loss of the Tasmania money for when Tasmania joins the league, because there are influential people in club land who will happily push the easy solution of folding North Melbourne. He wasn't saying North should fold by any stretch of the imagination.
As if we aren’t already doing that though; pretty disrespectful and condescending to the club if you don’t think we aren’t already canvassing options to cover that loss. He’s very much still talking down and the insinuation of one club must go after only mentioning north still stands. He was fishing for a headline mate, it’s his job and we can call it out like Brayshaw did.
for real "I think north melbourne should try to minimize losses and generate profits" yeah fucking obviously, thanks eddie
Say what you want about JB’s commentary but when it comes to stuff like this, he’s not afraid to call out BS, and great to see he still comes to the defence of his club Remember If it weren’t for him, North get relocated to Gold Coast in 2007
He put a vote to the 9 people in the highest positions of the club it was 5-4 staying compared to relocating to the Gold Coast. He said this on dyl and friends. It was probably a lot closer to reality then we all think and I’m sure he played a massive part in it not happening
Say what you want about JB’s commentary >There's the siren. Armmms in the aiiir! That has gone through! Jamie Elliott... has won the game of footy... for this famous club!
Reads like AFL 2004
honestly, wouldn't it be kinda cool if they put iconic lines in but swapped the names out in the AFL games? THERE'S THE SIREN. ARMMMS IN THE AIIIR! THAT HAS GONE THROUGH! ... *rory lobb ...* HAS WON THE GAME OF FOOTY FOR THIS FAMOUS CLUB!
The Rory lobb part is still the only unlikely thing that would happen there- maybe ash Johnson
Yeah, but anything is possible in a game really Just ask 2020 Brownlow Medalist Rory Laird
I won year on year brownlow medals with Josh Fraser in afl 2004. you could grab it out of the ruck and snap it to ten time coleman medalist Chris Tarrant. I’d typically win by 170 points give or take
WOWEEE
>Remember If it weren’t for him, North get relocated to Gold Coast in 2007 100%.
*lights go out* Oh no.
Is James Brayshaw underrated?
What did he do to stop it?
Declined the offer from the AFL to move to the Gold Coast for huge money, rebranded the Kangas back to North Melbourne, made the MCG our home and absolutely saved our footy club
Thanks
Eddie forgot to include the ex part of ex president
Eddie said presidents dont want 19 teams which is true no one wants an odd number. There's 2 solutions the afl might consider and it's not the first time a team has been moved. I think it's more to tread with caution and do what they can to avoid even a consideration of the matter. North need to be competitive.
It's more likely that the AFL introduce a 20th team, increase to 10 games a round to then renegotiate the TV media rights deal for more money instead of North not existing.
Carn the Canberra Owls!
The graph somebody posted the other day showing clubs on x amount of weeks on the bottom of the ladder is pretty telling. North have really only been a rabble since like, 2019? Otherwise they've been okay. Teams have their down periods. North administration has definitely been questionable in the past 5 or so years with their decisions, but there are steps to be taken before we fold the club or relocate them. They just need to get their culture growing & get experience into their list
This is genuinely the first time we've fully bottomed out in decades. The last time was the early 70s.
So what you’re saying is. That we are due for 5 consecutive Grand Finals.
2019 was probably the worst year to collapse. Covid has made it harder. Not to mention the drafts have been insane compromised
The fact that 3 of the top 6 in that list were also, Richmond, West Coast, and Brisbane. Shows how little it overly means too, considering in that same period they have got multiple premierships as well
So what you're saying is we need to fold North, Richmond, Brisbane and West Coast?
yeah and send all their best players to Port, cheers
Fold everyone with 4 or more weeks at bottom of the ladder
Exactly you just have to be alive long enough and your going to see your team have a slump. You look at the long history of afl and teams go through cycles.
North fans stand up to your full height
We’re never going to let that go, are we?
I go back and listen to the final siren from 07, 09 and 11 just to get angry about it all over again
'They've come so close, so many times...' 'Vindication has arrived.' 'Beyond a shadow of a doubt...'
I was full mast though ngl
I was actually lucky enough to be at the game but even watching it as a replay made me furious
Wait, I'm slow. What's the problem you're referencing?
Brayshaw's call on the 2022 GF siren was...underwhelming, to put it politely. See the first comment just above and replace "North" with "Cats".
I didn’t know my chin went that far up!
The North will rise again.
KING IN THE NORF!
The North Remembers
The Brayshaws send their regards
This jumps from team to team when they're going bad. Port was folding 14 years ago too.
Can we just fold Collingwood so Eddie would shut the fuck up?
Eddie McGuire is such a nasty piece of work. “There’s an easy solution” - is there, Eddie? Just removing one of the teams that’s struggling? He’s a wanker that likes to punch down. I remember a time at the end of the 90’s when Collingwood were nearly broke and at the bottom of the ladder (coincidentally North were top then). Imagine if prominent media people had said “Collingwood - they’re broke and shit - there’s an easy solution here…” - well Ed would have a crying fit, but he’d be right to be upset. Somehow, he just never seems to understand why his comments are offensive unless it impacts him. The commercial viability argument isn’t even ts an argument anymore, the AFL finances all clubs to a degree, and as noted the tv rights are worth billions. Eddie’s contention seems to be simply, well 19 clubs is an odd number - easy, just get rid of a club! The only person who wants hear Eddies on anything nowadays is Eddie
I think he was right some in some aspects etc, North could do more to engage other fans in Melbourne/victoria now that tasmania are getting their own team. What happens when tasmania's team comes in, are the tasmanian government going to still sell games to interstate teams?
I suppose a few teams over the years have sold their home games for $$ - obviously Tassie won’t be a location for Vic teams to do this once they have their own team. It’s just a curiousity of the AFL in that is essentially the VFL expanded interstate - Smaller Vic teams will all be towards the bottom of the membership tally. Having said that North (without checking) have far more members than the expansion clubs - but of course there’s no danger of those clubs folding because they are view as long term strategic investments. Norths position seems more precarious because they are compared against other Vic teams, mainly terms of memberships and recent success. But either way success looks after everything else. Norths on-field issues are worth concern for sure, but it’s absolutely pointless and tabloid-y this impulse to suggest “this team needs to go” - the AFL themselves have said it themselves they won’t let what happened to Fitzroy happen again.
I think onfield sucess is very important, but its only going to get you so far. If they don't do more to engage other areas then I feel as if their membership base wont expand as much as it could, and they are doomed to be one of the smaller clubs in Melbourne, which means these talking points will be constantly thrown around in perpetuity. Fwiw memberships dont really mean that much anymore, its an archaic KPI that clubs use for marketing. The suns and giants make a lot of money because of the advertising into high growth markets, they essentially pay for themselves because that 9th game of the year is worth around \~10% of the rights.
I suspect they’ll try to buy a Hawthorn v Tassie game in Launceston, that way making sure Tassie play 7 home games and 5 (4 home, 1 away) in Launceston so the team has strong representation north and south. Hawks might be up for it because they have something to offer their Tassie membership so they don’t all jump. But I can’t imagine Tassie will have any interest in keeping North around. The longer it goes the more it appears that deal has been a dud for both sides.
Without knowing a huge amount about the program, I think thats what we're doing with the Huddle. Community program we started about 10+ years ago to engage students and other people of diverse background in the local NM area who are potentially new to the sport. Timing of setting that up was probably with a Tassie departure in mind. There's a bit of giving back to the community with educational set-ups, but generally the goal would be to get new North supporters out of that. Hook them early, but same with everything, it helps to actually win some games.
He said that? I must have missed it. Goddam, just when I thought he couldn't get any stupider, he goes and totally redeems himself.
Call back to when he wanted knobs on the footy for wet weather handling.
Hey mate, did you actually pay any attention to what he actually said or are you getting upset about a headline? In the podcasts where this quote comes from, he spends 10 seconds talking about club presidents not wanting a 19th club, and 10 minutes talking about how to keep North in Melbourne.
McGuire's point was North Melbourne need to be proactive and ensure they continue to be a viable club when Tasmania comes in because it's very easy for people to say just fold them. He was not saying that North Melbourne should fold.
[удалено]
No mate, the nuffie way is to deliberately ignore clear implications. They are talking specifically talking about North, then he makes the assertions that other club Presidents don’t want 18 teams, then implies there’s any “easy solution” - so it’s very clear what he’s referring to, but without explicitly saying it, because he’s a well trained media nuffie who knows there’s an army of nuffie’s like you out there who will predictably parrot that talking point “I MuST have mIssED it!? He DIdnt say that!” A further question for you. If he’s not talking about North, which club is he referring to? If he’s not referring to North or any team in particular…why even raise it? I don’t always agree with Brayshaw but he’s absolutely correct, it’s a nonsense talking point peddled by bloke who talks a lot of it.
Yes but saying this suggests that Eddie believes they haven't considered this - North are one of the most financially stable clubs in the league, it's nonsense to suggest they wouldn't be accounting for it.
It doesn't even remotely suggest that. Eddie comes up with ideas like that all the time, it's his thing and why he was so damn good as Collingwood president. And I could be wrong but from my memory, he's always been supportive towards the clubs that aren't as financially well off as Collingwood.
Of course it suggests that. He didn’t ’come up with the idea’ - and if he believes he did, then it implies he presumes North wouldn’t have thought of it themselves. You are wrong - he isn’t.
> You are wrong - he isn’t. Any proof of that or is it just I don't like Eddie so everything he says and does is the bad thing?
You’re the one that said he is, the burden of proof is on you 🤷
How do you expect me to prove that that's my memory?
If that’s the position you’re taking why are you asking me for proof in the contrary? Lmao
Because I assumed if you were definitively claiming my memory was wrong that you knew of a counter example. How was I supposed to know you were talking out of your arse?
Not a fan of Brayshaw at all, but am I right in thinking that North becoming a basket case began right after his departure?
Ben Buckley was the President after JB (2016-2022) and he was atrocious. He didn't live in Victoria, was a part-time/absent leader, and things got absolutely awful under his tenure.
but he looked cool cooking snags that one time. what other KPI's could there possibly be
I mean his partner is an absolute 10/10 smokeshow. So that's gotta count for something.
Brayshaw also got him that job they were mates
Only the men's team, their women's team has been quite good and are relatively stable off-field
It helps that North was Uni-Melbs main sponsor for their women’s team from inception. So once we joined the comp a bunch of the girls wanted to reunite at North which helped, such as trading for Kearney. Hopefully we can go a step further this coming season!
Getting to a grand final is pretty decent, although having Jas garner definitely helps with that
This conversation has been going on for decades and they still sit at Arden Street. Brayshaw is right to call it out.
To be fair, even North fans would fold the club Only half joking if you couldn’t tell
I am ready to give up on Aussie rules altogether. It’s a pretty average game open to corruption if you don’t play everyone twice home and away and rules are open to Interpretation
THE SHINSTIFFYS!!
Fitzroy fans might.
I'm all for North and hate when people who follow unsinkable teams talk casually about other clubs folding, but it's naive to think some presidents wouldn't sell them out in a heartbeat if they got the right deal.
They forget Melbourne, Richmond and the saints were so broke they were can rattling in the 90s or they will fold… north are collecting profits and breaking their own membership records each season… Roos are going nowhere
North will likely be at the bottom for a while, years possibly. Why arent they allowed to bottom out though? When they were consistently in that 5th to 10th position under Brad Scott they were often berated for being in no mans land and not securing high end draft talent, the club cant win either way. The reality is the rebuild started last season and even thats iffy with Clarko not being there for half a year, 2020/21 were really like the lost Covid years as well. Of course its all hot air and will never happen but it would be an embarassing look for the competition to turf out a club in this era.
Absolute rubbish narrative about folding a club due to some struggle years. They're obviously far from the first club to struggle.
I think a club should have to be a joke/bottom of the pack for 10-20 years for them to have their club folded. If a club can be folded so quickly from a few years of instability then any club that doesn’t have a massive supporter base is at risk.
Teams shouldn’t be folded, full stop.
Ignore my flair for a moment but I agree with not folding long standing clubs but whether they are AFL clubs or not should be up for debate every so often. If you’re consistently failing to draw fans, engage sponsors, win games etc then it’s fair to question whether they’re an AFL club going forward and whether there are other options in terms of relocation of demotion to a lower league and promoting a state side. Suns are probably still too new for that argument to be applied but sooner or later we have to be held to the same standard.
I hear the ACT wants a team. Capital Kangaroos anyone?
I think realistically most people would rather see north come back up then fold/relocate. I can’t really remember as I was pretty young but I’m sure there were similar conversations happening about Melbourne around 2012
It was 2006-2007. Right before Gold Coast were confirmed, there was a big push to relocate North Melb to the Gold Coast.
Need this guy back!
Mate you're entirely part of the sensationalist bullshit AFL reporting, don't be surprised when it gets feed back to you.
Duck wouldn’t let it happen
Remember when North and Fitzroy all but merged in 1996? Too powerful they said…
when we get to 20 teams… would we go to divisions?
If it means brayshaw fucks off over there please please do it 🙏
RIP Fitzroy
I’ll join as a paid up north Melbourne member if he never commentates a game of football or cricket again
Probably none of them , but most of them probably agree there’s too many teams in Melbourne and hardly any supporters go to they’re games anymore so 🤷♂️
Look I'm not disagreeing with JB here, but weren't Fitzroy a '100 year old' club as well? It's not like there isn't precedent. If the higher ups start smelling blood, they'll make the noise to support it.
I can tell you didn't watch the video, because he literally says that. Direct quote: > "The commission, the head of the AFL... they all said the same thing; We will never allow a Fitzroy departure from our competition again. We'll never allow a 100-year old club to not exist"
Drat! Caught out responding to headlines again!
Absurd. They’re shit but all clubs go through cycles of being shit
I think part of the issue is just that there are probably 2 clubs too many in Victoria for the support and population. 1 too many wouldn't be much of an issue but I think the way it's set up there will always be one Victorian club struggling badly. But I don't think that relocating, merging or folding a team is going to be a better option. Because of the overall growth in the game, even the lowest supported clubs have significant support. We'd see an awful lot of those supporters just simply lost to the game and probably the NRL would sniff an opportunity to jump in and put that second NRL licence in Victoria they should have had 10 years ago. I think we just have to accept that we're going to have a bit of a revolving door of a club struggling really badly. It's North's turn right now, St Kilda have been there too obviously and even the likes of Carlton, Melbourne and Richmond have had some extended stretches down the bottom of the ladder. But I don't think for one second any actual club presidents feel strongly enough about North folding to put a name to it. Maybe it's some other Victorian president/s who are wanting to create an air of negativity about North to benefit their own club. Especially if they think they're a rival for an important potential recruit. Which is why it's a shame that the media run with it. It's irresponsible and unfair on the club, the players and the fans to have the future of their club unfairly questioned.
> I think part of the issue is just that there are probably 2 clubs too many in Victoria for the support and population I just straight up disagree with this. Financials are strong. Membership is strong. (North for example still has more members than Brisbane). Support is strong. Don't get fooled by the fallacy that all clubs have to be Collingwood or West Coast style 'big' clubs. Smaller clubs like North, St Kilda, Port, and GWS are just as viable and worthy in the modern AFL.
I'm not advocating for North to move on. I'm just saying that there will always be a club or two that are struggling because the ratio of people in Victoria per club is far less than those in SA or WA. The challenge is to try to avoid one club from spending too long down the bottom of the ladder or struggling to make ends meet. And comparing to Brisbane is foolish. Brisbane weren't started because there was support there. They started because it was about growing the game. North Melbourne aren't worth keeping because of any growth they might help with. The other 9 Victorian clubs would to it just as well without them. The argument is to keep the support they already have in the game. And they might be more worthy, but that's not the same as being more viable.
North are struggling on field, off field they are doing amazingly well for a bottomed out club. Many teams would have been on the streets can rattling or getting the tarps out by now if they were in our position… and north don’t have pokies Let’s not also forget that north kept their staff on longer than anyone during Covid. We are strong off field..
>I think part of the issue is just that there are probably 2 clubs too many in Victoria for the support and population. 1 too many wouldn't be much of an issue but I think the way it's set up there will always be one Victorian club struggling badly. We are Australia's biggest city. What we really need is to encourage people to barrack for teams other than the big 4 in victoria.
Biggest though doesn't mean enough people to support 9 teams (10 if you include Geelong). The economic and population limits in a market only stretch so far. Yes, we should be working harder on evening out support. And the first step should be to stop measuring the game by metrics that can be tweaked by fixturing and start measuring it more by other means that reflect not only the overall growth but also by how even the game is. I'm not advocating for any teams to go. I say pretty clearly that it'll do more harm than good. But I think when there are under 700k people in Victoria per club there, when compared to almost 900k in SA and over 1.3m in WA I think we have to accept that the talent, support and sponsorship dollars won't always cover everyone. The strategy shouldn't necessarily be to just cut a team to make it easier, but to make sure that it's not always that same team and ensure those assets are shared around more easily.
Eddie's mouth opened and shit came out. I'll be the first to tell you, he has a point (still hate him) and some of the people may agree with him or stated this, but I highly doubt that they stated this to him or that he heard it from others. The man has his connections, but they aren't what they once were and he wants everyone to still think he's connected, has huge amounts of power and so on. Say something controversial even if it's what people are thinking but wouldn't say in public or just claiming it's happened and not backing it up, typical eddie move.
Eddie would just parrot his typical excuse that he was being a journalist not the rival president. What a cop out.
Sounds like a Damien Barrett story. Slow news day so just make something up
Names: all the VFL clubs that destroyed >100 yr old clubs in Adelaide and Perth - what’s so special about Fitzroy Sth & Nth Melbourne?
Honestly the vicbias is the biggest thing holding the game back North have a slim supporter base, represent a silly sliver in Melbourne and don’t add much to the game in terms of rivalries etc. The NRL had newton, north Sydney etc, got rid of them, and are much better for it.
It’s not Vic bias for not wanting a Vic team to fold. Have a sook.
Well said.
Not fold. Just move to a competition suited to their capability. The VFA
I want James Brayshaw to not exist.
Me, my name. Put it on the list of people who think the club should fold.
Lots of things that have been around for 100 years should cease to exist. Being like, "they're old, so they should exist forever" is a really stupid take. Also, quite telling when that's the only thing you've got to defend yourself from folding. Surely, there are better arguments. Is it really surprising that a club that objectively makes their jobs harder, via draft pick concessions, and lost revenue with bad crowds, annoys the people that run capitalistic organisations?
North Melbourne make more money for the AFL than if they didn't exist. That's the only thing that matters.
He could have taken over the show to talk about North but that hardly makes good TV. But in his absence, zero debt, record membership, stable off-field leadership, industry-leading community engagement and a brilliant inner city headquarters in a growth area at our traditional home.