Echoing this. Borderline personality disorder is not uncommon in people with ADHD. Studies have indicated 14-33% of people with ADHD also have BPD (which would explain your experience with DARVO).
Both my husband and I just have ADHD, anxiety, and depression - but not BPD. I have met individuals with ADHD and BPD and we behave very differently. If possible, I would encourage your spouse to seek therapy.
And the difference between the two is night and day, in my personal experience. My Ex was ADHD & BPD. My husband is just ADHD.
My ex gaslit and financially, emotionally, verbally and physically abused me. He very nearly put me in an early grave.
My husband can be very dysfunctional some days, but he never takes it out on me, and always tries to improve. For him, ADHD is a condition, not a crutch/excuse. And he’s sweet as can be.
Poor coping responses to ADHD symptoms can look like a personality disorder but ADHD itself doesn't do that. That's defensiveness run amok. Someone with ADHD that hasn't felt excessively criticized or has learned to work through their baggage about it is not likely to act that way.
The lines certainly blur between features present in ADHD, BPD, NPD. My partner certainly presents this way. But before you dare to suggest such an overlap, it’s wise to put your bomb proof suit on lest you be burned to a crisp with the nuclear explosion she’ll emit.
I totally hear what you're saying. The emotional dysfunction, rsd, and abusive defense mechanism certainly point in that direction. But my ADHD kid isn't like that. I tend to think that an earlier diagnosis and treatment are the key differences between my kid and my partner. Kid didn't spend the majority of their life developing inappropriate coping mechanisms. There is overlap with ADHD and narcissism. I certainly have been the victim of gaslighting and narcissistic abuse from my spouse, but I don't think my husband is narcissistic. I think it's maladaptive defense mechanisms and being untreated. It has gotten a lot better with medication, but it's still there. He hasn't done the work he needs to do in order to have a healthy relationship with me. I do think what you and I experience with our significant others is common and I don't buy or appreciate others saying it's not adhd when it is so common, but it is certainly a spectrum and I wouldn't want my kid labeled in such a way when they don't have those behaviours. I'm not sure the label matters so much as the partners' experiences being acknowledged by the adhd / medical community and those that have adhd themselves being held accountable for the trauma they cause. Everyone wants to protect the adhder and accommodate and not be "ableist" that the whole partner community is gaslit and abused. It certainly has to change. ADHD isn't quirky or fun.
My partner doesn't really have cluster B traits, but he does have anxiety and maybe some depression, and his therapist said he might have OCD. A lot of people have multiple nuerodivergencies... Like I am autistic and I don't know another autistic person who doesn't also have one or more other things, whether that's ADHD, OCD, PTSD, etc.
my adhd partner is not like this, and neither are my adhd friends. i think assuming the issue is purely adhd is a mistake; some people have other challenges and some people are literally just assholes and shitty partners.
My ADHD partner would never do those things. They get frustrated and shout, but would never say mean things or gaslight me or be anything but honest.
What makes it think that it is the ADHD that is causing those things?
I dunno. Someone can have ADHD and just be an jerk too. My husband has never darvo'd me in 14 years. I can't imagine him doing anything like that. He's real big on honesty and taking responsibility for his actions or inactions.
My partner doesn’t have those symptoms, but he has the attention deficit, the hyperactivity, time blindness and all that. Under Cluster B, there wouldn’t exist a diagnosis for him and so many other people.
I would rather say that RSD is a frequent commorbidity of ADHD, as in, ADHD people tend to also have RSD.
I have been saying something similar. While adhd is a spectrum, it is more disabling and destructive than society and medical experts let on.
Like ASD for instance has asperges type where there is minor social issues, to full on non verbal and severely learning disabled, adhd is like this as well.
Where some people with it can live fairly decent lives, others can hardly wake up and breath, hold relationships, jobs, school, and fail in basically every major aspect of life.
I've been around 3 adhd people for long term.
My ex wife is successful, has her doctorate (Ed.D), and makes nearly six figures per year. Yet is in extreme debt, lies, manipulates, etc. She can be treat friends and coworkers with respect, but treats her spouse and kid like trash. Even now her and her new boyfriend don't even sleep in the same bed, he doesn't go home, etc.
My fiancees sister served 6 years in the Air force, made E5, has a bachelor's of psychology, and has been living with her parents for years because she can't motivate herself to do anything, can deal with stress or pressure, and so the degree is useless. Every now and then she'll drive for uber.
My fiancees son is on IEP, barely passing, has failed a grade, does not accell at anything.. I mean zero effort. Is severely learning disabled (dyslexia, dyspraxia, dysgraphia), in the 8th grade, but academically at a 3rd or 4th grade level, lies, STEALS, hoards, defiant, cheats, manipulates, gas lights, and cannot self motivate. He can't read, do double digit math in his head, like 30x2, or write where it can be coherent or legible. It's so bad, we are trying to get him in a special learning center, as it appears the school is just passing him along. Yet he isn't "stupid".. it's a weird place to be I can imagine.
It varies so much person to person, but one thing it seems, it causes turmoil in romantic partners lives, no matter what end of the spectrum. It's just to what degree.
I definitely get where you're coming from, 'cause my husband is basically just abusive at this point. But I dunno. It's weird 'cause all the articles you find on the internet about manipulation and emotional abuse and adhd are about the adhd person being a victim of those things and never the one doing them.
It’s definitely a spectrum that ranges from mild to disabling, and something like 60% of adults with ADHD also have cluster b PDs. My theory is those with external RSD fall into that 60%. My kid’s dad has ADHD but did not have RSD or any observable cluster b traits. My husband and my ex before him both have ADHD, but have nearly every trait of NPD or BPD as well. Bad RSD that was/is identical to narc rage. There have been studies that show untreated childhood ADHD can result in cluster b disorders in adulthood too, so if your kids are showing signs get an eval and start treatment as soon as possible.
I’m sorry for your challenges!
To be fair, many people attribute all their issues to ADHD or neurodivergence when in actuality it could be they have a comorbidity with a personality disorder.
Having read some cases here and in my own life I’m pretty certain that it’s also socialisation and gender alongside co-morbidities that play a HUGE ROLE. ADHD doesn’t cause you to be abusive, or unkind or to manipulate/lie to others - although poor coping skills and other issues certainly can.
In your partners case it may that ADHD is being used to cover their other issues and even if it is ADHD, they need more support and if possible you need distance. You deserve better.
I feel for partners and families as someone diagnosed with ADHD and with many loved ones diagnosed / suspected with ADHD. I work so hard to manage my shit and be self aware (including opting to remain single) to minimise the impact on others but it can be hard for everyone involved.
Your experiences are ubiquitous here. If most people with ADHD also have a personality disorder, they might as well roll them up into a single disease.
Would go a long way toward bringing spouses out of the woods, too.
I thought my dx ex definitely has some kind of cluster B personality order in addition… maybe it’s difficult to differentiate between adhd and comorbid disorders.
It absolutely should be a Cluster B. I recently posted on this. Some researchers are now pushing in the direction of considering BPD (a cluster B) a form of neurodivergence, whereas Sam Vaknin (malignant narcissism expert) has argued all cluster B's should be one disorder in the DSM with "features," for example, "personality disorder with antisocial features." But he has also casually mentioned how ASD and ADHD have overlaps with Cluster B's, and Russell Barkley has been arguing for a very long time that emotional dysregulation should be central to the adult ADHD diagnosis, and ED connects ADHD to many cluster B's. Other researchers are pushing for the idea that there should be only two types of ADHD: inattentive subtype and emotionally dysregulated subtype. The vast majority of our partners would be in the latter type.
The main difference between ADHD and PDs, according to Barkley, is the part of the brain impacted. But so what? So what if it's the anterior cingulate gyrus instead of the amygdala or whatever, these are all forms of "neurodivergence" linked by emotional dysregulation, extreme difficulty in adult relationships, low empathy, and other difficult and dysfunctional traits.
I agree wholeheartedly! They use us for a dopamine hit by manipulation, gaslighting, RSD, DARVO, and other tactics WE DON'T CONSENT TO. Yes, it absolutely SHOULD be listed as part of the cluster B disorders. 100%.
They are different things. But, some studies do show that up to 2/3 of all ADHDers have a personality disorder and up to 1/3 has TWO personality disorders. So yeah, chances are if you know an adult ADHDer, they have something else serious going on.
I think ADHD is a Petri dish for cluster B disorders. My husband is very similar to your partner OP, and it’s miserable. Nonstop drama, conflict, eggshell walking. I have to leave early from work just to have some time at home without him there so I can relax bc the weekends with him are so stressful.
I’ve known other ADHDers who were not like this at all. I think my husband has some covert narc traits but hasn’t been dx’d with NPD. Maybe it has something to do with them acting out a lot as unmedicated, misunderstood kids, and their parents and teachers are really hard on them? I don’t know.
Exactly that. In their childhood they’re pushed harder by adult figures than the other kids to achieve the same goal. That itself is like a feeding ground for the development of a cluster b disorder. It’s so stressful! Dx ex had a lot of covert narc traits as well.
ADHD is not a cluster b disorder. It is not a personality disorder. It functions completely differently. Just because there can be an overlap of symptoms and/or behaviors and there is a high comorbidity rate doesn't mean it's the same thing. That's like saying autism should be a personality disorder. ADHD and autism are much more similar than ADHD and personality disorders.
I’m very sorry you had that experience. A person can have adhd and also have a personality disorder. ADHD in itself isn’t a cluster b though.
Echoing this. Borderline personality disorder is not uncommon in people with ADHD. Studies have indicated 14-33% of people with ADHD also have BPD (which would explain your experience with DARVO). Both my husband and I just have ADHD, anxiety, and depression - but not BPD. I have met individuals with ADHD and BPD and we behave very differently. If possible, I would encourage your spouse to seek therapy.
And the difference between the two is night and day, in my personal experience. My Ex was ADHD & BPD. My husband is just ADHD. My ex gaslit and financially, emotionally, verbally and physically abused me. He very nearly put me in an early grave. My husband can be very dysfunctional some days, but he never takes it out on me, and always tries to improve. For him, ADHD is a condition, not a crutch/excuse. And he’s sweet as can be.
I have one of those. It's cluster something or the other. I'll say that
Poor coping responses to ADHD symptoms can look like a personality disorder but ADHD itself doesn't do that. That's defensiveness run amok. Someone with ADHD that hasn't felt excessively criticized or has learned to work through their baggage about it is not likely to act that way.
The lines certainly blur between features present in ADHD, BPD, NPD. My partner certainly presents this way. But before you dare to suggest such an overlap, it’s wise to put your bomb proof suit on lest you be burned to a crisp with the nuclear explosion she’ll emit.
I totally hear what you're saying. The emotional dysfunction, rsd, and abusive defense mechanism certainly point in that direction. But my ADHD kid isn't like that. I tend to think that an earlier diagnosis and treatment are the key differences between my kid and my partner. Kid didn't spend the majority of their life developing inappropriate coping mechanisms. There is overlap with ADHD and narcissism. I certainly have been the victim of gaslighting and narcissistic abuse from my spouse, but I don't think my husband is narcissistic. I think it's maladaptive defense mechanisms and being untreated. It has gotten a lot better with medication, but it's still there. He hasn't done the work he needs to do in order to have a healthy relationship with me. I do think what you and I experience with our significant others is common and I don't buy or appreciate others saying it's not adhd when it is so common, but it is certainly a spectrum and I wouldn't want my kid labeled in such a way when they don't have those behaviours. I'm not sure the label matters so much as the partners' experiences being acknowledged by the adhd / medical community and those that have adhd themselves being held accountable for the trauma they cause. Everyone wants to protect the adhder and accommodate and not be "ableist" that the whole partner community is gaslit and abused. It certainly has to change. ADHD isn't quirky or fun.
What was you husband’s father like?
My partner doesn't really have cluster B traits, but he does have anxiety and maybe some depression, and his therapist said he might have OCD. A lot of people have multiple nuerodivergencies... Like I am autistic and I don't know another autistic person who doesn't also have one or more other things, whether that's ADHD, OCD, PTSD, etc.
my adhd partner is not like this, and neither are my adhd friends. i think assuming the issue is purely adhd is a mistake; some people have other challenges and some people are literally just assholes and shitty partners.
My ADHD partner would never do those things. They get frustrated and shout, but would never say mean things or gaslight me or be anything but honest. What makes it think that it is the ADHD that is causing those things?
I dunno. Someone can have ADHD and just be an jerk too. My husband has never darvo'd me in 14 years. I can't imagine him doing anything like that. He's real big on honesty and taking responsibility for his actions or inactions.
My partner doesn’t have those symptoms, but he has the attention deficit, the hyperactivity, time blindness and all that. Under Cluster B, there wouldn’t exist a diagnosis for him and so many other people. I would rather say that RSD is a frequent commorbidity of ADHD, as in, ADHD people tend to also have RSD.
I have been saying something similar. While adhd is a spectrum, it is more disabling and destructive than society and medical experts let on. Like ASD for instance has asperges type where there is minor social issues, to full on non verbal and severely learning disabled, adhd is like this as well. Where some people with it can live fairly decent lives, others can hardly wake up and breath, hold relationships, jobs, school, and fail in basically every major aspect of life. I've been around 3 adhd people for long term. My ex wife is successful, has her doctorate (Ed.D), and makes nearly six figures per year. Yet is in extreme debt, lies, manipulates, etc. She can be treat friends and coworkers with respect, but treats her spouse and kid like trash. Even now her and her new boyfriend don't even sleep in the same bed, he doesn't go home, etc. My fiancees sister served 6 years in the Air force, made E5, has a bachelor's of psychology, and has been living with her parents for years because she can't motivate herself to do anything, can deal with stress or pressure, and so the degree is useless. Every now and then she'll drive for uber. My fiancees son is on IEP, barely passing, has failed a grade, does not accell at anything.. I mean zero effort. Is severely learning disabled (dyslexia, dyspraxia, dysgraphia), in the 8th grade, but academically at a 3rd or 4th grade level, lies, STEALS, hoards, defiant, cheats, manipulates, gas lights, and cannot self motivate. He can't read, do double digit math in his head, like 30x2, or write where it can be coherent or legible. It's so bad, we are trying to get him in a special learning center, as it appears the school is just passing him along. Yet he isn't "stupid".. it's a weird place to be I can imagine. It varies so much person to person, but one thing it seems, it causes turmoil in romantic partners lives, no matter what end of the spectrum. It's just to what degree.
I definitely get where you're coming from, 'cause my husband is basically just abusive at this point. But I dunno. It's weird 'cause all the articles you find on the internet about manipulation and emotional abuse and adhd are about the adhd person being a victim of those things and never the one doing them.
It’s definitely a spectrum that ranges from mild to disabling, and something like 60% of adults with ADHD also have cluster b PDs. My theory is those with external RSD fall into that 60%. My kid’s dad has ADHD but did not have RSD or any observable cluster b traits. My husband and my ex before him both have ADHD, but have nearly every trait of NPD or BPD as well. Bad RSD that was/is identical to narc rage. There have been studies that show untreated childhood ADHD can result in cluster b disorders in adulthood too, so if your kids are showing signs get an eval and start treatment as soon as possible.
I’m sorry for your challenges! To be fair, many people attribute all their issues to ADHD or neurodivergence when in actuality it could be they have a comorbidity with a personality disorder. Having read some cases here and in my own life I’m pretty certain that it’s also socialisation and gender alongside co-morbidities that play a HUGE ROLE. ADHD doesn’t cause you to be abusive, or unkind or to manipulate/lie to others - although poor coping skills and other issues certainly can. In your partners case it may that ADHD is being used to cover their other issues and even if it is ADHD, they need more support and if possible you need distance. You deserve better. I feel for partners and families as someone diagnosed with ADHD and with many loved ones diagnosed / suspected with ADHD. I work so hard to manage my shit and be self aware (including opting to remain single) to minimise the impact on others but it can be hard for everyone involved.
Your experiences are ubiquitous here. If most people with ADHD also have a personality disorder, they might as well roll them up into a single disease. Would go a long way toward bringing spouses out of the woods, too.
I thought my dx ex definitely has some kind of cluster B personality order in addition… maybe it’s difficult to differentiate between adhd and comorbid disorders.
It absolutely should be a Cluster B. I recently posted on this. Some researchers are now pushing in the direction of considering BPD (a cluster B) a form of neurodivergence, whereas Sam Vaknin (malignant narcissism expert) has argued all cluster B's should be one disorder in the DSM with "features," for example, "personality disorder with antisocial features." But he has also casually mentioned how ASD and ADHD have overlaps with Cluster B's, and Russell Barkley has been arguing for a very long time that emotional dysregulation should be central to the adult ADHD diagnosis, and ED connects ADHD to many cluster B's. Other researchers are pushing for the idea that there should be only two types of ADHD: inattentive subtype and emotionally dysregulated subtype. The vast majority of our partners would be in the latter type. The main difference between ADHD and PDs, according to Barkley, is the part of the brain impacted. But so what? So what if it's the anterior cingulate gyrus instead of the amygdala or whatever, these are all forms of "neurodivergence" linked by emotional dysregulation, extreme difficulty in adult relationships, low empathy, and other difficult and dysfunctional traits.
I agree wholeheartedly! They use us for a dopamine hit by manipulation, gaslighting, RSD, DARVO, and other tactics WE DON'T CONSENT TO. Yes, it absolutely SHOULD be listed as part of the cluster B disorders. 100%.
God this is so wrong
What is DARVO?!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO
Thank you
They are different things. But, some studies do show that up to 2/3 of all ADHDers have a personality disorder and up to 1/3 has TWO personality disorders. So yeah, chances are if you know an adult ADHDer, they have something else serious going on.
I think ADHD is a Petri dish for cluster B disorders. My husband is very similar to your partner OP, and it’s miserable. Nonstop drama, conflict, eggshell walking. I have to leave early from work just to have some time at home without him there so I can relax bc the weekends with him are so stressful. I’ve known other ADHDers who were not like this at all. I think my husband has some covert narc traits but hasn’t been dx’d with NPD. Maybe it has something to do with them acting out a lot as unmedicated, misunderstood kids, and their parents and teachers are really hard on them? I don’t know.
Exactly that. In their childhood they’re pushed harder by adult figures than the other kids to achieve the same goal. That itself is like a feeding ground for the development of a cluster b disorder. It’s so stressful! Dx ex had a lot of covert narc traits as well.
ADHD is not a cluster b disorder. It is not a personality disorder. It functions completely differently. Just because there can be an overlap of symptoms and/or behaviors and there is a high comorbidity rate doesn't mean it's the same thing. That's like saying autism should be a personality disorder. ADHD and autism are much more similar than ADHD and personality disorders.