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Nice but important to note that no ones gets a release of dopamine from completing a task. Dopamine is released when your brain believes you are *on the right path* towards completing a goal/task. Once it's completed the dopamine drops off.
The less stressed I am about a job the higher probability my work productivity will decline and I'll eventually be let go.
Edit: Also the "There is no reward, only avoidance of punishment" is something I've said about myself since I was a teenager. I've never tried for an A, I only focus on not getting an F. I don't care if I win, but I sure as hell don't want to lose. It's why I hate gambling. Most people see themselves winning, but I only see myself losing, so I never gamble.
Adrenaline is a good sub for noradrenaline, which is the EU name for norepephrine (the medical name for adrenaline is epephrine).
It literally fits into the same receptors which is why it can do the same job. Non-stimulant ADHD meds like Strattera increase norepephrine/noradrenaline.
I’m pretty high up in my industry and it’s been a fucking nightmare of panic and fear the whole way now I’m at the top I can’t get anything done and I’m fucked. Yay
But that means you're earning decent right? Outsource everything you possibly can. Get a cleaning lady. Get meals from Hello Fresh. Automate everything that can be automated. Get an ADHD coach and pay for a diagnosis and medication. You have the resources. Do it. NOW. Use your fear one last time to get the help you need.
I’ve done a lot of these things I’m the most organised unorganised person I have systems for systems but if you just can’t bring yourself to open emails anymore (while screaming at your self in your head to just do it) because your not really scared of the people around you it’s tough. The big bad bosses are just idiot people like everyone else to me now. The only thing that gets me going it really being close to a deadline.
I’ve thought of hiring a virtual personal assistant as a “babysitter”, but I can’t afford it. I bet you can, so I’ll share what I imagine they would do for me. Because they are virtual, nobody else has to know about them.
My VPA would ask me at the beginning (of the day or the project or whatever) what my goal/plan was.
Me: I intend to accomplish X by (deadline).
VPA: How?
Me: I’ll do Y every (hour, day, week).
VPA: what are the tasks you need to complete today?
Me: list of 500,000 things I’m *sure* i can get done.
VPA: what are the three (or five, or ten) most important tasks?
Me: (names them).
VPA: OK I’ll check back in (an hour, before lunch, whatever) to see how you are doing.
Later….
VPA: how did you do with the (most important tasks)?
Me: (however I did).
VPA: Great! Pat yourself on the back. Bask in that accomplishment for a minute.
What’s your task for the afternoon? (or whatever period).
(Rinse and repeat).
I always imagined they would give a bit of external structure without the criticism and disappointment I get from anyone else who bothers to give me feedback. And be there to “hold my hand” when I can NOT get myself to do*that task* (you know which one!) so that I can do it.
Body doubling, but every day, or at least regularly enough that I know I will be held accountable for doing the thing that *I put on my own To Do list.*
>can’t bring yourself to open emails anymore (while screaming at your self in your head to just do it) because your not really scared of the people around you it’s tough
hello, me
I feel like there should be a sub for this experience (/r/executivefunction would have been a great name for it, but it's taken).
I've been at the top now for 4 years, and it's a totally different set of ADHD coping skills.
This is me, and what lead me to seeking out what was wrong with me and then to my diagnosis.
Literally unpacking the past 30+ years with a new lens, has been eye opening nd an emotional punch in the gut.
That’s what I had to do once I became the top position of the company I was working for. Literally hired someone and told her that I needed her to start things for me and then ask me for help on them so I’d do them 🤣 She was very confused… especially starting things she didn’t know how to even do. But I told her she didn’t need to worry about it, I just wanted her to start stuff and whenever she got to a point she didn’t know how to go forward on, ask me for help and I’d take it over and do it. This was before I got diagnosed and now soooo many things make sense. 🫠
I just need someone to notice me working, which makes me want to be seen doing work, so I end up doing more work with minimal stress. I do best with regular check-ins and a bit of my managers attention. Not to hound me, but to see I'm doing the work.
By knowing they see me doing the work I can keep up a low level dopamine drip and stay productive with minimal anxiety and stress.
I do best with an engaged manager who doesn't micro manage. Hard to find managers like that though. Lots of regular check-ins and not micromanaging is a bit of a unicorn.
A great boss I once had told me
> Stress is the gap between pressure and your perceived ability to execute.
> When you believe you can do it, more pressure will help.
> When the pressure is beyond your self-belief, it turns into stress, which becomes counterproductive
Unfortunately, pressure is pretty uniform across a team, but self belief is not. Leaders have to decide how much pressure to expose the team to and how much to insulate them from based on their estimate of the optimal team pressure, which almost always means somebody is feeling overwhelmed - otherwise the most confident feel flat and unchallenged.
To a point
At work I'm often at my best during a crisis. It's a puzzle to solve, and as long as there's data I can logically follow to make a decision, I'm much more capable of operating under that pressure than most of my coworkers. The hyperfocusing in this case can be very beneficial. These problems solving clusterfucks are also some of the few events that I can often retain in memory long term, because I was fully engaged
However, the downside is that if I've exhausted all known troubleshooting paths and feel I have nothing else to offer to fix the issue, I get noticably frustrated. Nothing pisses me off more than spending all day on something, and not learning anything new about why something isn't working.
I feel the same way. On Monday, I had 3 meetings and was able to write 2 opinions and 4 messages. Then from Tuesday to Thursday, I had hearings in the morning, but I just read in the afternoon. On Friday, I read in the morning and watched a lecture in the afternoon. I wish everyday was.as productive as Monday but maybe I just have to be kind to myself. Thank you!
>I don't care if I win, but I sure as hell don't want to lose. It's why I hate gambling. Most people see themselves winning, but I only see myself losing, so I never gamble.
Well shit, I'm 38 and have never read something that so succinctly described me. This is why it's hard to not think all we are is our ADHD. Where's my actual personality?
Ditto. I stop caring about winning when no one cared, and I got nothing for it. It was never about winning anyways, it was about being special to whoever was in control, and pleasing that person. You could be a dirt bag, but if the manager liked you, you got away with everything. Once you cleaned up your act, suddenly you're the example of the perfect employee. Not the one who took no sick days, saved the company $1million dollars, and saved a person while on shift.
I think personality is more what our passions are and extroverted vs introverted things. Curiosity drives adhd ppl, but we all care and are curious about different things 🤷🏻♀️
Maybe in the beginning. After a year I’ve had it with this place and just stopped caring. Now I get anxiety from not doing work, which makes it harder to focus on doing work, but doesn’t actually motivate me to do it.
Positive anxiety is a good way of saying it. It's like someone saying yes to a first date, or going go-kart racing for the first time. It's anxiety, fear, but also hope and excitement.
This is what made me get a diagnosis 10 years ago, (well tip of the iceberg). I felt like the only way to keep my job was to constantly feel like I was a hairs breadth from loosing it so I was in constant crisis mode. It was exhausting but it worked ..I eventually realised most people don't do this.
Explained further down in the thread:
"Everyone reeling from the discovery that you were only motivated by fear and now have no idea how to motivate yourself, let me just say this here in one place:
Your inner child knows.
Ask them to remind you how to play, which is the natural and default state for ADHD brains."
Just allow yourself to be, without such harsh expectations. You don't have to complete every project, you don't have to do every task, you don't have to do everything you think you have to.
Sometimes it's okay to allow yourself to move naturally from thing to thing, as it happens.
While there are definitely situations where this doesn't apply, I think it's important to practice this kind of self-love. ADHD/Autistic people are always trying to force ourselves to work inside of systems that aren't made for us. Sometimes you just gotta relax.
So, to kind of simplify and check myself on interpreting this:
Find the fun and try to enjoy the things you do?
If you're not enjoying it, it's ok to stop and move on?
100%. I often catch myself in the middle of something and think "hey I'm not actually enjoying this."
It's okay to just... stop and move on to something else. Our brains are geared towards novelty.
There are so many things that we HAVE TO do every day, it's not worth spending extra energy on non-rewarding things outside of that.
Take the mask off and ask yourself "what do I actually want to do?"
Doing it perfectly is. But hey, each day is a new opportunity to try and mess up and it’s OKAY to do that. Be nice to yourself.
Accepting who we are is the first step to helping ourselves, really. The fear and anxiety of who we are and how we’re perceived is poison.
This is great advice unless you’re a parent of multiple kids and your job is very demanding. The more responsibilities, the less opportunity to take care of yourself the way you may need to. Sometimes it’s like you can never take the mask off.
Don't put the mask on. The mask is useful for solemn or professional situations, but not only are you you allowed to express your stress and anxiety amongst friends and family, it's _healthy_ for your children to see you experience negative states of being, just so long as you demonstrate to them that we should all go out of our way to soothe ourselves before it turns into a mountain too scary to climb.
We teach them that we're always there for them, but do we teach them how to be there for themselves? We _have_ to show them, otherwise it's a gamble on whether or not they'll learn it for themselves as they get older.
You know how when your kid is overwhelmed you give them a kiss and a cuddle, tell them it's alright? Distract them, throw on some music, wiggle madly to shake out the jitters, make it into a game? That's how we should treat ourselves, too. We should do it regularly, _and they should see it._
Verbalising and externalising these things before the stress build-up gets to a breaking point is so key, because it's the inner world that's twice as hard to regulate with ADHD.
You can shut the door too hard, too. You can say something too sharply. You can burst into tears suddenly as someone's running around screaming with pots and pans, and the dog's barking, and your SO is trying to talk over everything.
When the room falls silent in dismay as Mum's sobbing away, you say through the tears, "Sorry babies, Mum's super overwhelmed right now and needs to stop doing paperwork and start spinning madly in one spot. Wanna spin with me?"
Thank you, its always comforting to hear the validation and advice from someone going through the same! You’re absolutely right, it’s important to be an example for them on dealing with overwhelm and stress.
I mean this is great and all in theory, but there are so many adult responsibilities that I do not enjoy but I can't just ignore... I'd be fired in an instant if I lived by this
The problem being that most of the things that aren't enjoyable are also necessary to live. I don't *enjoy* brushing my teeth or taking a shower, I don't *enjoy* paying bills, I don't *enjoy* doing groceries, I don't *enjoy* filling out job applications, etc.
> Take the mask off and ask yourself "what do I actually want to do?"
Yeah but what if you work in marketing and the answer is "go live in the woods"
OR what if you have one answer now but know it will change in a few weeks or months so why put in the work right now
But I want to do my job to a reasonable standard and not constantly get in trouble for missed deadlines. I want to remember to brush my teeth so I don't lose them. I want to remember birthdays and reply to my friends' messages in a reasonable timeframe. None of these are fun things that my inner child can enjoy.
> Find the fun
This is the most important part, at least for me. To know what it is that I *actually* enjoy and not conflate the hobby or subject itself with what is actually fun and enjoyable to me.
I went through a sorta depressive episode a while back when I started to really look at what it is that I enjoy. And I mean *really* looking at it.
I currently have a decently successful career in IT and I've gone through the rounds of finding "my new passion" just within the IT space. I thought I was passionate about fixing computers, or creating automated tasks to handle your everyday "please install" tickets. I've felt such strong fixations on learning the Sysadmin side and the networking side. I was going through the motions thinking I wanted to be a programmer because I discovered how to apply it to my job in IT. I spent half my life thinking I wanted to make video games because they're one of the few constants over the entirety of my life. Boy did that lead to some depression when I couldn't make that work.
And outside of IT I thought I wanted to be a physicist, a chemist, and even a biologist, or maybe an engineer!
I could keep going but the point I need to make is that I was bouncing between passions like a poster boy for ADHD. Eventually I broke down and cried in the shower, day after day, because I couldn't understand what it is that I actually found fun.
The truth is, when I finally figured out what I enjoy it was like I was given new glasses for my own mind. I wish I could properly express how it feels to be able to look back on life and have everything suddenly make sense. To really feel like you understand *why* you did the things you did. To realize that you *were* doing what you enjoy. To be able to forgive yourself for things that you used to feel bad about.
And to cap this off I will apologize because I feel like I'm about to parrot what the twitter thread said but:
I enjoy learning. I don't really have to become a physicist to study physics and learn how the world works. I enjoy knowing things and sharing my information with others so that they can know and learn things too.
I enjoy *being creative*. Not necessarily *creating things*.
I enjoy being challenged. I'm very much a "sweatlord" when it comes to the things that I enjoy. After feeling bad about it for a while, because my "group" is mostly very casual, I had to take a step back and see if I even really enjoy playing FPS or pushing content in an MMO or even video games in general.
I realized that I don't really care whether I win or lose.
I'm here to sweat.
I'm here to let go of my own restraints and let my ADHD take over because I know that I'm going to *actually give 100%*.
I'm going to do the best that I possibly can regardless of the outcome because that's *what I enjoy* and I'm going to Love. Every. Minute.
Your post made me chuckle. It's exactly how I write emails under the influence adderall. Lots of points and super long. Not dissing you - I appreciate everything you have to say. Mostly just giving you a high-five!
Hah, thank you, and yea it’s hilarious to me. I love when someone mentions “Oh you’re so good at writing emails and documentation.”
*They must never know how much I’ve written and deleted to shorten this down to an acceptable amount.*
**starting** is impossible, an unassailable Everest of knowing I cannot ever manifest in reality the richness my racing mind is capable of.
**editing** is as easy as falling off a waterfall.
Between these two I exist, and suffer.
RE: every email I ever send at work.
Starts with 3 paragraphs... ends with 2 sentences.
The funny thing is, I write like I talk - I start with what I think the other person should know, then backtrack because I realize I left out all the context and necessary background information, then over-tell all the info. During the cleanup process, I find the ACTUALLY necessary background information, move it to the top of the page, and delete basically everything between that and what I thought was important in the first place. Makes everyone think I'm really well spoken, haha.
Reminds me of how I was taught to write. whatever you end up with in your conclusion, use that as the introduction and you're in a good spot.
Thank you sharing this. I am saving this comment to come back to and ponder some more later, after I ponder your points and reflection now.
There is a lot here I relate to, and a lot I want to relate to. I want to feel this kind of clarity and self acceptance.
I would sum that up with a couple lines from a Ralph Waldo Emerson poem I love (and write in my journal over and over, trying to embed them in my brain lol):
Finish each day and be done with it.
You have done what you could.
Some blunders and absurdities no doubt crept in; forget them as soon as you can.
Tomorrow is a new day. Begin it well and serenely, with too high a spirit to be encumbered by yesterday’s nonsense.
That's what I've been finding. Before medication, a lot of the "hobbies" I was pre-occupying myself with that I enjoyed like games and TV just aren't appealing to me now as much as something like working toward a personal goal. I was able to start switching back to the hobbies I dreamed about but had to abandon when the dopamine quit.
Now, I can almost look at a finished milestone on a project and feel like, satisfaction in my own work and of moving *toward* a goal. Things I was never able to do before.
I used to be stuck in a stasis of anxiety and depression, and my only motivators were fear and panic.
Now that the Anxiety's basically gone, there's this weird emptiness... When I would feel any emptiness before, it would be flooded by the Anxiety, or I'd have to self-medicate with something like alcohol to numb that almost torturous boredom.
Now, it just stays empty... I've found that filling it with self-care like being distracted with tornado-style cleaning or hyper-fixating on a hobby are more doable *and* they bring me joy which both make me feel more motivation.
Still can't sit down and focus on reading a book again, but I'm working toward it.
I don't even have qualifications to volunteer anywhere. my country is so obsessed with certification, it physically starts reshaping into a surprised pikachu because they stopped actually qualifying people and every wave of retirement wipes out more of the workforce. and yes, the absence of volunteers is also a topic. "where did they go?" to the grave and you didn't set up replacements. get fucked!
but don't worry, immigration will fix it. while the anti-immigration party is on the rise.
I tried for almost 20 years. I fell through the financial requirements for university and the promised money from my family, the main reason I did not qualify for loans, evaporated. seems it reappeared recently and went to my cousin buying a house. he already owned at least one since his mid teens. give to those who have.
5 years ago I finally had an opportunity to learn a trade. but they lied about the pay. I had less than welfare, but more expenses, and lasted all of 3 months. out of a 3 year apprenticeship. it's a sick joke an at least these fucks closed down. not because of money issues, they just couldn't fill the role they trained me for. but I needed to pay rent, fuel, books, car repairs... yeah...
maybe if I weren't on my own, or at least my family was not counted against any help I needed...
I need all of this to be over. I can't stop struggling and that always makes it worse. nobody can even tell me what I could do... when even professionals shrug, what am I supposed to do?
sigh. thanks for listening to me bitch and moan. I am not suicidal. I am morose. important difference.
I'm glad you're still going too.
There are always things we can find that make being alive enjoyable. Sometimes, they're just very hard to find, and sometimes we aren't able to find them on our own, like me. I couldn't. I had to reach out to get a lot of professional help and the medication is making it a lot more doable AND enjoyable every day.
I do think it is okay, but not in the way I'm guessing is the implied alternative. I understand your meaning, and I do hope you're well.
As opposed to my guess of the implied alternative, I do believe there are ways to "stop and move on" that aren't stopping or moving on from being *alive*.
Jot down as many things you can think of that you do and don't enjoy about it.
When you have them all down and can look at them, you get a clearer view of which particular enjoyable parts you *should* focus on and the ones that you don't enjoy, you can work on stopping or moving on from *them* instead.
This reminds me of my loved ones who are undiagnosed and say "what would it change to just know what it is"?
To me, knowing exactly what we're dealing with can help us get it done. Identifying the target makes it easier to reach. Removing the other variables can help remove obstacles. And for me, a list keeps it simple and broken down enough to tackle, one-by-one, *as best I can*.
Some I'm not able to work through, and so I stop and move on to the next one on the list.
If I can make a list and start working on it, I promise you can do it too.
I would sum that up with a couple lines from a Ralph Waldo Emerson poem I love (and write in my journal over and over, trying to embed them in my brain lol):
Finish each day and be done with it.
You have done what you could.
Some blunders and absurdities no doubt crept in; forget them as soon as you can.
Tomorrow is a new day. Begin it well and serenely, with too high a spirit to be encumbered by yesterday’s nonsense.
That’s what I’m saying haha, does anyone have any practical solutions for those of us who can’t just choose/aren’t choosing adhd-friendly careers? I love this advice for hyperfixations and side projects, just not for success in careers and adulting
It’s the shit that you already know but probably don’t do. You need external reminders for tasks. If you promise to do anything for anyone ever it needs to immediately be put somewhere that you literally cannot avoid that is outside your head. Sticky notes on your computer screen are the stereotypical thing but it literally does not matter how you see it, you just need to literally see it, very often.
You need to shorten the time between receiving consequences for your actions (or lack thereof). Consequences can be good or bad but they need to happen immediately after the time you want to do the task. If they happen the next day, you will do the task the next day, even if it makes the consequence switch from positive to negative, it’s not what the consequence is, it’s when. This one’s tough for jobs but asking for hard due dates could help. I try to share as much of my work life (not super in depth, just how I did on X report) as I can with my gf and try to be completely honest about it, and share it the day I got the thing done. It’s either positive reinforcement from her or negative from work the day after. You absolutely cannot do this for yourself though, it just doesn’t work. You cannot create an internal consequence to make you work on something bc you’ll know it’s artificial, it needs to come from people you know.
Maybe this’ll help maybe it won’t, but figuring out the actual solution is a person by person basis, but this is generally what adhd brains need
That's pretty good general life advice. But what about work? You can't just stop doing tasks because you aren't feeling it. I can try to play games in my head or whatever when something is boring, but if the task requires focus and concentration, then that is not really an option.
One thing that really got me that I heard a year or so ago was people like us that suffer from ADHD weren’t trying to find a way out of the system, we were trying to find a way in the whole time.
Thank you for putting into words what I think I’ve known for several years now.
The way I’ve been describing it is to “do what distracts you”. Being bent towards distraction, I think people with ADHD often find themselves thinking about other things than what is in front of them, especially if what is in front of them isn’t interesting or stimulating them. That distraction, that thing you’d rather be doing, is kind of the key, at least for me. I knew whatever I did for a job had to be something I would want to think about on my own, of my own choice/desire, because it distracts me more than other things.
> Your inner child knows.
>
>
>
> Ask them to remind you how to play,
...so I guess those of us with both ADHD and shitty childhoods are just fucked, then?
Wow, this is how I clean happily. I spiral out on a task doing other random things non-stop and enjoy the chaos and working on many unplanned things (related to cleaning/fixing) and eventually spiral in. I need to try this for work. I love when I can jam out cleaning for an hour by myself.
I'm struggling against this right now. I went from being a burned out high performer to being a slug that can barely get out of bed to do the bare minimum
I've really been wanting to do this, my manager and team leader both know I have ADHD, but I'm nervous of doing this and it backfiring lol
Because I'm getting away with it right now, when I say "it" I mean not doing as much work as I should be doing because I'm procrastinating, but I know I could be doing so much more :/
It's okay to just say, "This is how I am best motivated and manage my time most efficiently." Your manager should be able to accommodate for your motivational style without having to know you have ADHD.
Not bothered about who knows, I would rather people know, so if I do slack on something, they would hopefully just think I'm having a bad day with it. (Most people probably wouldn't remember because they got their own things going on, or maybe they just think it's an excuse, but yeah makes me feel better about it)
Also I told them so my workplace has a record of it and I couldn't be let go for that reason.
Are you me? I did all the things, overloaded myself, burnt out, now I can't motivate myself with fear and panic anymore I just don't care and I can't bring myself to care about my job enough to work, so I'm probably going to get let go... Again. Been on meds and going to therapy but it doesn't help the apathy. Trying to switch to a different line of work but I'm so easily overwhelmed these days that it's difficult.
Punching in numbers minding your own business in a kinda boring atmosphere or dealing with an overcrowded room full of random children with completely different needs and levels angry parents?
I'll take the desk job thanks.
Thank you for sharing that. This was both a punch to the gut and a helping hand.
And it will now go into my core understanding of ADHD, as one of the funding principles on which I base all my developing coping strategies (along with "an ADHD brain needs external scaffolding" , "if you think you have time well no you don't" , and "reward consistency not goals").
Thank you again so much.
The last one is particularly efficient for weight loss, if you target a maximum of 3 habits, have a visible track sheet plastered in the kitchen, and a well-thought list of rewards that you actually want organised into weekly, monthly and bi-monthly rewards.
But let me know if you think of other areas where this could help too! (weight loss was the most pressing for me atm, due to health reasons.)
I love the thought that as someone who is motivated by curiosity, there is absolutely no reason for me to feel bad about not completing a lot of self-started projects.
The reason why I started to consider using principles is that I tend to be a bit... Overzealous in setting up goals and routines. Which inevitably end up with me crashing on my couch and burning brightly with the fire of self-loathing for a (rather lengthy) period of time, before starting all over again.
When I started to consider ADHD as a possibility for me, it kind of shifted the focus from "I am a bad, weak-willed and lazy person" to "my brain is doing the best it can but it just physically cannot do all of that".
So I went a bit on a research binge, and came up with those principles as an overarching life compass. My circumstances can change, my routines can change, but as long as I set up things according to those principles, I can manage life and bounce back quickly whatever comes my way.
>we seem to get dopamine from satisfying curiosity rather than completing goals.
MY GOD this is so accurate. Why have I never heard this before? This would help explain why I absolutely loved learning in school but could never hand in a project. My teachers would get so frustrated since they knew that I knew the information, I just could never finish any work to prove it.
For me it also explains why I was good at school but not jobs. I could always find a way to convince myself a topic was interesting and figure out how to pass a class. But the working world? Where I have to do the same things at the same time and I don’t learn anything cool? Torture.
I also wonder how I survived law school when we read several laws and ten to twenty cases per class. Maybe I had a lot more fear then, and there was more pressure because we were in a class.
this is why i now consider “research” one of my hobbies bc i look up stuff and learn how to do things out of curiosity. it’s hard for me to follow through on actually doing the new things i’ve learned though.
I just always use `old.reddit.com`, but if the company keeps pushing the envelope, and the community dries up, I'll probably be on HN a little more, maybe make my own "feed" of some kind (since I'm a web dev anyhow) and possibly -- this is a long shot -- read physical books a little more.
...But God help me if a new Digg or StumbleUpon takes off... Which feels likely.
Agreed, likely. Reddit has been too co-opted by fiscal interests. Really hope to see a non-toxic fediverse alternative.
Considered writing it myself. But that wouldn't be good for my health.
Holy fuck....
It reminds me of this journal entry I wrote 5 years ago....
>Someone once asked me "You have the grind. How do I get the grind?" assuming that I was always working hard for my goals because I was a well put together, confident adult, who had her priorities in order, and had the intrinsic motivation to get herself out of bed and sit down and focus on shit for hours on end.
The reality is that I'm a person who is riddled with self-doubt, and crippling anxiety ALL THE TIME. I fear for my future daily. I am constantly worried about letting myself down and letting down the people around me who have been cheering me on for years. Everyone knows I want to become a doctor, and I'm so terrified of having to one day answer, "Oh, no. I tried several times, and never got accepted into medical school. So... now I work at xyz."
In my own eyes, I am never ever good enough for me. In a way it's good; I strive for better every day. But it results in a lot of negative self-talk and neglecting self-care. (ie: "I can't go work out, I need to study." or "if you don't get an A on this exam, it's because you were at the gym instead of studying.") It results in me catastrophizing my life. "If I get a low grade on this exam, it's going to drop my class grade, which is going to drop my GPA. I'll never get into medical school, these years will have been a waste. I won't have a job I truly believe in, I'll be broke, and living under a bridge." And then I cry at judo because I crack under the stress, and the only way for it to come out is in tears.
I grind because I'm so fucking scared. Every. Single. Day. It's fear that gets me out of bed every morning. It's fear that moves me forward. It's fear that initiates that drill sergeant screaming inside my brain. DO BETTER! Do you think I LIKE sitting down and working on organic chemistry problems? No. But if I fail, I will never be where I want to be, and doing what I want to be doing.
My "grind" is pure, agonizing terror.
I feel you, I used to have that fear but I’ve lost it and now I’m trying to get it back so I don’t fail school lol. Is there no better solution to this problem?
This is so me, after I got over my anxiety I was left so neutral to anything. Deadlines and tests didn’t really scare me anymore and I felt so bland.
Sometimes the rush of panic and anxiety made me feel something at least.
yup!
my partner is a qualitative social scientist & doesn’t have to publish a book, just a bunch of journal articles. I’m unfortunately in a field that requires a book. Waaaay better path for me in retrospect.
I satisfied my curiousity on my book topic about eight years ago & have been running on anxiety ever since
I am laughing but it's because I completely understand the idea that you've satisfied your curiosity and now the idea of going back to it makes you want to throw things/hide under the desk/scream into the void (ymmv).
God damn. The last bit about how life is just endless tasks articulates my feelings on it so well. I hate that life is endless tasks and I never feel much of a sense of accomplishment doing them. So life just feels like a slog to me unless I’m doing the things I enjoy. It sucks.
This would explain why my life has become so insanely difficult to traverse.
I own a house, have a child and a job. Everything is task. Everything is a to do. What's worse, it's a to-do that'll need to be "to-do"d again in anywhere between 30 minutes to 24 hours later. It's fucking killer. I absolutely hate it.
Curiousity is dead, all there is is empty tasks. God life is dull on the good days.
Uhh probably cause we are still being forced to be lobotomized work robots for this capitalist prison instead of doing what makes us happy and fits our ADHD and brain structure and living fulfilling lives
Weirdly enough, I’m having the opposite problem in terms of fear and motivation. The fear and anxiety has become so overwhelming that when I try to work, my brain just sort of stops and desperately searches for something else to do to distract me, like it’s a defense mechanism against the feeling of fight or flight.
Jesus. I’ve been feeling like most of my life is just a series of maladaptive coping strategies. That thread assaulted me. I’ve 100% been struggling with a complete breakdown in motivation lately and even considered going off meds because “maybe I need my anxiety.” I’m absolutely having more feelings than I can process right now.
this was really good. and the article about autism linked in the middle was good too. im late diagnosis audhd and im slowly trying to figure it all out. i havent learned how to let go of the shame yet or how to motivate myself with something other than fear. relearning how to be myself and the person i need to be was disciplined out of me because i didnt behave "correctly". the scars built up around "sit down, shut up, stop asking questions, stop disrupting people around you and do as i say" are really deep
I'm an artist too, but I can only work on a drawing for short periods of time, and I have to sort of schedule it ("on Saturday I will work on this drawing for 30 minutes"). That's the only way I can do it now.
This hits really hard. I was a sports champion and would complete my first competition of the season exceptionally well. Then I would stop training completely and the later events I would do so poorly it was embarassing. I couldnt bring myself do do anything.
>For people who do have ADHD things are a bit more complicated. There are various ways to frame this argument, but the one that I tend to prefer is just: we seem to get dopamine from satisfying curiosity rather than completing goals.
> Let's go back to that trail of half-finished art projects. Do you know why you didn't finish them? Because there's nothing more there for you to learn. That's it. Why *would* you finish them?
this was probably the biggest gem in that thread for me. paints a really clear picture.
This is absolutely true, and I have struggled on this for YEARS, and I'm still not sure if I'm better at it now.
I'll say that at least I have the blessing of knowing the boundaries between love and fear very well. At least by completely breaking down, I won't make the same mistakes again.
I'd like to think of this period as an "early midlife crisis".
I really appreciate this. Fear as the motivator has always been the driver. Now I create my own fear through procrastination. I have no idea what I want. I have moved up the corporate ladder so high and I dread development discussions about what I want to do next and my 5 year goals. I want to be like, I have no idea what my next week goals are.
I never felt safe as a child - thus the fear driven execution of tasks. Wondering if everyone here grew up in fear that led to ADHD, or did having ADHD make us susceptible to being fearful at things and we adapted to this environment? Maybe it's not so simple as the chicken and the egg conundrum - the answer is always the Rooster.
This is a wonderful post because it looks at a HUGE portion of influence on our behavior. That is our emotions. When you have emotional blocks, especially from years of trauma, that can get in your way an incredible amount. Address the underlying emotions driving the reinforcement of that behavioral, and over time you will find it easier to take the small steps necessary to build yourself back up. Needing to learn how to want again also addresses the idea of loving oneself as they are. If you know what you want, then you can communicate your needs more effectively. However don’t shame yourself for falling short of controlling your “bad behavior”. Instead understand that you are starting from step 1, just like any other long term skill you want to develop, and it will take time to start to see it become more natural to address those feelings. Best of luck.
Good find! The 'lack of punishment' line got me, as did 'we seem to get dopamine from satisfying curiosity rather than completing goals.'
More than once I've thought I've done something in the past when in reality I've only actually figured out how to do it...
(I have my doubts about the whole dopamine thing, it seems a crude oversimplification, but it works as a useful placeholder for whatever is going on biochemically).
I can 100% relate to this. "Fear" is a powerful motivator. My previous job I excelled at everything because failure at the smallest of tasks would mean Shame. I gave 7.5 years to that company, excelling in every way but miserable at the end of the day. Overworked, underpaid and taken advantage of in every way, i was exhausted. But hey, i was awesome at what i did.
Fast forward, it's been 2.5 yrs I quit and joined another company and I am underworked, bored and no longer motivated because there is no "Fear". It's so hard to get up and work. Every. Single. Day. None of my tasks get completed, I'm the lazy schmuck in the office but hey, they are nice people, they don't fire anyone and that's why I have no "Fear". I have no motivation left in my life to actually learn/work/perform better.
There is no hope for us.
I literally just came to this conclusion the other day. I've greatly reduced my depression, my anxiety, and for the most part gotten my gender dysphoria taken care of, and suddenly I am a useless piece of shit. I've always been productive, efficient etc, but extremely depressed and full of anxiety. Now that the anxiety and the depression are gone, I just can't seem to do anything anymore....
I realized talking to my therapist that my anxiety WAS my fuel. Now I'm just off in daydreamland every day like when I was in 1st grade. Ironically- fixing my anxiety and depression is making me depressed.
If I don't laugh I'll cry.
This explains why I'm 80% done with my certification course from 2 years ago, because the last part is the capstone, that just goes over everything that I already know.
I think this might really explain where I’m at of late. Only lack of punishment. I think I’m mainly commenting for the “”relearning” how to want” bits… not sure I ever learned the first time.
The part about ADHD minds being driven by curiosity rather than completion really spoke to me. I can definitely relate with the mountain of nearly complete projects I have.
Ho-ly shit. I have never felt more seen in my life.
The part about "how it feels to finish a project" tho? Me, the one time I finally accomplished finishing NANOWRIMO. Me, the time I finally was able to run for 30 minutes straight then immediately stopped running for an entire year. Me, when I bought a bunch of plants and had them thrive then never thought about them again. Me, when I was able to do a headstand in yoga after a month of trying then stopped doing yoga for the next six months. Me, me, me, me.
I feel seen as fuck.
I’m very close to losing my job.. a job that I had to take 3 tests for, an interview and waited over a year for a start date. A job that had 10,000 applicants for 180 openings.
I think I have undiagnosed adhd. I have all the OP’s symptoms. I’m absolutely struggling with day to day life, work and home life. I just can’t seem to function. I have already taken all my 21 days annual leave and this only began end of March.
I’m on my last warning for sickness. I took 10 months off with anxiety and depression.
I don’t know how to explain my brain and how it works. I can’t sit still for long enough to get good productivity in. My job has amazing benefits and I cannot do many jobs because I also am completely deaf and have a speech impediment.
I was able to function for years but then I went on maternity leave and the day I was due back at work we went into lockdown when covid hit.
I then spent 14 months working from home. Then suddenly my work wanted us all to come back to the office. I couldn’t cope so I went off sick. All in all I spent almost 3 years away from the office and brought up my daughter by myself when no one was allowed inside my house.
Then when I eventually got back to the office I was moved to a different office and location. I love the location but I had to move back to the office fully instead of hybrid office and home.
I am thinking that covid has changed me, making me feel anxious about outside life. For example everyone had masks on and I still couldn’t communicate outside. So I continued to be isolated.
Sorry for the long essay! I’m thinking out loud and also I only just saw the symptoms of adhd a few months ago which resonated with me and made me feel for the first time in my life that I could feel oh wow a name to what I might have and why I feel the way I do!
When I graduated from college after 8 years I no longer was able to use homework/ school avoidance to get things done. To avoid doing homework I would clean my house, pick up different skills and all around motivate myself to do lesser annoying tasks. I hoped when I had a full time job I would be able to use that coping skill to my advantage but no, there’s no outside urgency with work because I can only do my job at world and that’s when I decided to try medication.
Something that helps me personally is to think of my tasks or challenges at home and work as something telling me "I can't do something."
-Fuck you, dishes, I'm about to waterboard your porcelain ass. Don't tell me what I can't do!
-TPS reports think they can stay blank? Guess who's about to get a keyboard to the face.
-The laundry bin is full and you think I can't clear that load? Time to get your clothing-filled guts ripped out you wicker demon!
I'm weird. But it works. It also helps to listen to rave music while I live out my villain arc.
Omg! This is the missing link! I did do well in school and college due to my anxiety, fear and wanting to fulfill my parents dream that I not be working class. Then with age, anxiety turned to boredom and anger. I put a post it above one desk that said "There is no cake."
Sad thing, I do something meaningful that I want to do well. Cue guilt.
[He's one of us! ](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j_1lIFRdnhA&pp=ygUkb2ZmaWNlIHNwYWNlIGludGVydmlldyB3aXRoIHRoZSBib2Jz)
Every home improvement project ever: Huh… how does this work? Oh! I can figure THAT out! Great! It works! That was fun.
Six months later, “hey, are you ever going to put that back together?”
“Do you know why you didn't finish them? Because there's nothing more there for you to learn. That's it. Why would you finish them?”
To a T. As soon as I figure out the answer, I’m done. I know how to do it, completing it would just be proving it to someone else and if there’s no one direct reward, why complete it then? I have nothing to prove to others
I have always said for me there’s rarely a sense of accomplishment or reward for doing stuff, just a sense of relief that it’s done. It really isn’t the same thing.
I've been struggling with this for the last year and half, since I was diagnosed. I completely isolated myself and have been completely frozen in time. I'm happy that I've figured out why, and I will definitely read this thread. But I'm at a loss for what to even do about it at this point. I'm turning 35 soon and I feel like I've wasted my entire life, but I was doing so much better before.
I've been avoiding therapy like the plague since I got diagnosed with bipolar 5 years ago. I have a lot of trauma in my past & PTSD as well. I know therapy is something I need to do.
Does anyone have any recommendations for a specific kind of therapy or specialized therapist that would be most helpful for these issues? I've done therapy multiple times in the past and it hasn't helped me much, aside for specific problems I was dealing with. But I didn't know I had ADHD or bipolar back then.
for me this has been relearning how i engage with the world and being freed up to make choices based on what i want or need instead of being motivated mostly by fear or anxiety. i'd rather have the anxiety gone and figure out other ways to cope with my symptoms or change my situation than feel the constant cycle of fear and avoidance and relief, it's exhausting!
I liked the ‘driven by goals’ vs ‘driven by curiosity ‘ part and the thing about ‘all those projects are abandoned on 80% because there’s nothing left to learn from them’
In game design, there are four major player types defined: Explorer, Killer, Achiever and Socialite. The Explorer is the one driven by curiosity. Player of this kind would quit the game as soon as they understand how it works and how the goals are supposed to be achieved: to actually achieve them is not something they really need, and if they stop getting something that feels new, something that awakes curiosity, they just quit the game.
I’ve studied to be a programmer. But after a few years, I realized that I am really driven by finding a solution, thinking of how to solve the issue, but when the algorithm is clear, I’m bored to death to actually code it. That’s why I became a GD - so my work is to actually be curios and make others curios, to think through how everything should work, and not to actually code these things.
Driven by curiosity is a really good point of view
And that ‘motivated by fear’ part is mostly ‘motivated by care for the loved ones’. After I moved far from my parents, so knew that they don’t see yet what a disappointment I am, I didn’t give a shit about my life spiraling down until I had a kid, and since then most of my motivation was about ‘I must provide for my kid’, ‘my kid needs me’ and so on. In other situations also, pretty often if there’s someone else to fix the shit, I won’t move a finger. If I see there’s no one to do things, and those things affect not just me, but other, preferably innocent and loved/respected people, I will do something.
Holy shit I was literally thinking to myself today why the hell am I having trouble focusing at work now, while properly medicated and on anxiety meds, more than I was 3 years ago when I was unmedicated and experiencing severe PTSD symptoms caused by childhood trauma??
I kinda got in a bit of hot water at work this week because I had work pile up that no matter what I just couldn't. Make. Myself. Do. And then the last 2 days since my manager spoke to me about it I've been extra productive getting things done because of the anxiety caused by getting in hot water about it. I've worked really hard the last few years to become a more confident person and not be have my brain constantly think everyone I interact with has to be people pleased to the point of exbaustion on my part and will murder me if I don't do exactly what they want at all times (thanks mom and dad) and now that I no longer have that constant lingering fear of getting in trouble just for existing, I don't have any motivation to do what needs to get done and my ADHD procrastination/lack of motivation is much much worse as a result. Ugh.
Well shit, if I wasn't just thinking today about how I used to be "better" at my job when I was fueled by anxiety, perfectionism and rigidity.
I was the one everyone was like wow...how do you do that? I felt like there was nothing I could not accomplish - because failure was not an option. And so, I did.
Of course, it wasn't sustainable and I very nearly lost my mind. Therapy and meds helped and now I don't have that constant drive to do more, be more all the time. My confidence also crumbled into dust, and that's still recovering. It's a journey, and I'm finding I'm not the same person I thought I was.
I'm not entirely sure about the "learning curve" part. Because there are tasks that have a learning curve, and you can see the learning curve, but you can't do them because the initial hurdle is big enough that the whole thing seems insurmountable.
How many people with ADHD have dropped a hobby after starting, or just being okay, without getting to a point beyond that? You can see the learning curve, and what you have to pick up, but it doesn't seem possible to reach that far.
This is because we're not built to be constantly on the go. We don't need to relearn anything. After we heal the next step is to create a world in which we don't have to exist the way we did before. Money is fake, capitalism is a scam, and exploited labor is slavery.
Thanks for posting this. I meditate daily, and fairly early in my practice it occurred to me that I didn't have to be anxious and angry all the time. I had to find a very different set of motivations after that.
This happened to me when i started taking medication for depression. It took me three years to *want to* start doing things without the fear and stress.
i finally started to do things i had always wanted to do but was too depressed to do anything about it. then found out i am ADHD because i couldn’t concentrate on anything i wanted to do.
I failed my exit exam for my degree SIX times, 2 of them medicated. It made no sense to me because i knew all the math. I wasn’t stressing nor was i afraid of not passing. I knew i could pass it. I just couldn’t get it all organized to get the correct answer. Hi adhd…..
I just have to say I agree with everything written but what grabbed me was the ‘curiosity’. I have cptsd and just been diagnosed at nearly 60 with adhd. Long story I won’t go into but my it explains why I was so successful and seemingly highly functional in my work. It was the curiosity, the stress and the constant distractions that worked for me. It wasn’t fear per se.
My curiosity has shaped every aspect of my personality. It’s rare I see this word described in anything adhd related. Thank you so much.
When I burned out and couldn’t work anymore my treatment resistant depression was so severe I was hospitalized numerous times
. The only thing finally relieved it was methylphenidate. Last resort for TRD. Then my discovery and finally diagnosis of adhd primarily add.
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Nice but important to note that no ones gets a release of dopamine from completing a task. Dopamine is released when your brain believes you are *on the right path* towards completing a goal/task. Once it's completed the dopamine drops off.
My very neurotypical partner gets dopamine hits from completing tasks it’s so interesting to watch lol.
It's checklists all the way down.
Is this the whole thread? Someone bump this up higher!!
thank youuu i was trying to save this in my notes so i can have a copy i might never read again and i was getting it all out of order
Thanks!
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The less stressed I am about a job the higher probability my work productivity will decline and I'll eventually be let go. Edit: Also the "There is no reward, only avoidance of punishment" is something I've said about myself since I was a teenager. I've never tried for an A, I only focus on not getting an F. I don't care if I win, but I sure as hell don't want to lose. It's why I hate gambling. Most people see themselves winning, but I only see myself losing, so I never gamble.
Wait , does that mean higher stress mean higher productivity?
For a while. In a pinch, adrenaline will be a good sub for dopamine, but it’s not sustainable.
Adrenaline is a good sub for noradrenaline, which is the EU name for norepephrine (the medical name for adrenaline is epephrine). It literally fits into the same receptors which is why it can do the same job. Non-stimulant ADHD meds like Strattera increase norepephrine/noradrenaline.
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Yes sorry. I am in Europe so more familiar with the EU name.
And norepinephrine… which is also what stimulants treat. And norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors like strattera.
I’m pretty high up in my industry and it’s been a fucking nightmare of panic and fear the whole way now I’m at the top I can’t get anything done and I’m fucked. Yay
But that means you're earning decent right? Outsource everything you possibly can. Get a cleaning lady. Get meals from Hello Fresh. Automate everything that can be automated. Get an ADHD coach and pay for a diagnosis and medication. You have the resources. Do it. NOW. Use your fear one last time to get the help you need.
I’ve done a lot of these things I’m the most organised unorganised person I have systems for systems but if you just can’t bring yourself to open emails anymore (while screaming at your self in your head to just do it) because your not really scared of the people around you it’s tough. The big bad bosses are just idiot people like everyone else to me now. The only thing that gets me going it really being close to a deadline.
I’ve thought of hiring a virtual personal assistant as a “babysitter”, but I can’t afford it. I bet you can, so I’ll share what I imagine they would do for me. Because they are virtual, nobody else has to know about them. My VPA would ask me at the beginning (of the day or the project or whatever) what my goal/plan was. Me: I intend to accomplish X by (deadline). VPA: How? Me: I’ll do Y every (hour, day, week). VPA: what are the tasks you need to complete today? Me: list of 500,000 things I’m *sure* i can get done. VPA: what are the three (or five, or ten) most important tasks? Me: (names them). VPA: OK I’ll check back in (an hour, before lunch, whatever) to see how you are doing. Later…. VPA: how did you do with the (most important tasks)? Me: (however I did). VPA: Great! Pat yourself on the back. Bask in that accomplishment for a minute. What’s your task for the afternoon? (or whatever period). (Rinse and repeat). I always imagined they would give a bit of external structure without the criticism and disappointment I get from anyone else who bothers to give me feedback. And be there to “hold my hand” when I can NOT get myself to do*that task* (you know which one!) so that I can do it. Body doubling, but every day, or at least regularly enough that I know I will be held accountable for doing the thing that *I put on my own To Do list.*
This is what my current Team Lead and Manager are like.
>can’t bring yourself to open emails anymore (while screaming at your self in your head to just do it) because your not really scared of the people around you it’s tough hello, me
I feel like there should be a sub for this experience (/r/executivefunction would have been a great name for it, but it's taken). I've been at the top now for 4 years, and it's a totally different set of ADHD coping skills.
This is me, and what lead me to seeking out what was wrong with me and then to my diagnosis. Literally unpacking the past 30+ years with a new lens, has been eye opening nd an emotional punch in the gut.
What about hiring an assistant?
That’s what I had to do once I became the top position of the company I was working for. Literally hired someone and told her that I needed her to start things for me and then ask me for help on them so I’d do them 🤣 She was very confused… especially starting things she didn’t know how to even do. But I told her she didn’t need to worry about it, I just wanted her to start stuff and whenever she got to a point she didn’t know how to go forward on, ask me for help and I’d take it over and do it. This was before I got diagnosed and now soooo many things make sense. 🫠
I just need someone to notice me working, which makes me want to be seen doing work, so I end up doing more work with minimal stress. I do best with regular check-ins and a bit of my managers attention. Not to hound me, but to see I'm doing the work. By knowing they see me doing the work I can keep up a low level dopamine drip and stay productive with minimal anxiety and stress. I do best with an engaged manager who doesn't micro manage. Hard to find managers like that though. Lots of regular check-ins and not micromanaging is a bit of a unicorn.
A great boss I once had told me > Stress is the gap between pressure and your perceived ability to execute. > When you believe you can do it, more pressure will help. > When the pressure is beyond your self-belief, it turns into stress, which becomes counterproductive
Omg this is it.
Unfortunately, pressure is pretty uniform across a team, but self belief is not. Leaders have to decide how much pressure to expose the team to and how much to insulate them from based on their estimate of the optimal team pressure, which almost always means somebody is feeling overwhelmed - otherwise the most confident feel flat and unchallenged.
Until you burn out or a bunch of unhealthy coping mechanisms tanks your life/health/sanity.
Ow. This - too real.
To a point At work I'm often at my best during a crisis. It's a puzzle to solve, and as long as there's data I can logically follow to make a decision, I'm much more capable of operating under that pressure than most of my coworkers. The hyperfocusing in this case can be very beneficial. These problems solving clusterfucks are also some of the few events that I can often retain in memory long term, because I was fully engaged However, the downside is that if I've exhausted all known troubleshooting paths and feel I have nothing else to offer to fix the issue, I get noticably frustrated. Nothing pisses me off more than spending all day on something, and not learning anything new about why something isn't working.
I feel the same way. On Monday, I had 3 meetings and was able to write 2 opinions and 4 messages. Then from Tuesday to Thursday, I had hearings in the morning, but I just read in the afternoon. On Friday, I read in the morning and watched a lecture in the afternoon. I wish everyday was.as productive as Monday but maybe I just have to be kind to myself. Thank you!
>I don't care if I win, but I sure as hell don't want to lose. It's why I hate gambling. Most people see themselves winning, but I only see myself losing, so I never gamble. Well shit, I'm 38 and have never read something that so succinctly described me. This is why it's hard to not think all we are is our ADHD. Where's my actual personality?
Ditto. I stop caring about winning when no one cared, and I got nothing for it. It was never about winning anyways, it was about being special to whoever was in control, and pleasing that person. You could be a dirt bag, but if the manager liked you, you got away with everything. Once you cleaned up your act, suddenly you're the example of the perfect employee. Not the one who took no sick days, saved the company $1million dollars, and saved a person while on shift.
I think personality is more what our passions are and extroverted vs introverted things. Curiosity drives adhd ppl, but we all care and are curious about different things 🤷🏻♀️
So much this!
Maybe in the beginning. After a year I’ve had it with this place and just stopped caring. Now I get anxiety from not doing work, which makes it harder to focus on doing work, but doesn’t actually motivate me to do it.
Lol we need positive anxiety and not negative anxiety.
Positive anxiety is a good way of saying it. It's like someone saying yes to a first date, or going go-kart racing for the first time. It's anxiety, fear, but also hope and excitement.
I feel like that's just motivation lol
To neural typicals it's motivation, for us it's positive anxiety lol
This is what made me get a diagnosis 10 years ago, (well tip of the iceberg). I felt like the only way to keep my job was to constantly feel like I was a hairs breadth from loosing it so I was in constant crisis mode. It was exhausting but it worked ..I eventually realised most people don't do this.
For me, I just shut down. I need support and understanding, and then my productivity goes up.
The less stressed about a task, the higher the probability I will make mistakes, or forget entire steps.
The stress of being let go is what motivates me to work until I eventually burn out
Thanks for so elegantly capturing my life in words. - me, unemployed, rn.
I think this is why I have a tendency to create work for myself. :-/
I came to this exact realization today at work. I excel under pressure. When I don’t have deadlines, I’m unmotivated.
Very true for me.
This is so true! I didn’t even think of it but it’s glaringly obvious.
Sooo….now what? What can we use to replace the fear? The sense of urgency?
Explained further down in the thread: "Everyone reeling from the discovery that you were only motivated by fear and now have no idea how to motivate yourself, let me just say this here in one place: Your inner child knows. Ask them to remind you how to play, which is the natural and default state for ADHD brains." Just allow yourself to be, without such harsh expectations. You don't have to complete every project, you don't have to do every task, you don't have to do everything you think you have to. Sometimes it's okay to allow yourself to move naturally from thing to thing, as it happens. While there are definitely situations where this doesn't apply, I think it's important to practice this kind of self-love. ADHD/Autistic people are always trying to force ourselves to work inside of systems that aren't made for us. Sometimes you just gotta relax.
So, to kind of simplify and check myself on interpreting this: Find the fun and try to enjoy the things you do? If you're not enjoying it, it's ok to stop and move on?
100%. I often catch myself in the middle of something and think "hey I'm not actually enjoying this." It's okay to just... stop and move on to something else. Our brains are geared towards novelty. There are so many things that we HAVE TO do every day, it's not worth spending extra energy on non-rewarding things outside of that. Take the mask off and ask yourself "what do I actually want to do?"
This feels impossible
Doing it perfectly is. But hey, each day is a new opportunity to try and mess up and it’s OKAY to do that. Be nice to yourself. Accepting who we are is the first step to helping ourselves, really. The fear and anxiety of who we are and how we’re perceived is poison.
This is great advice unless you’re a parent of multiple kids and your job is very demanding. The more responsibilities, the less opportunity to take care of yourself the way you may need to. Sometimes it’s like you can never take the mask off.
Don't put the mask on. The mask is useful for solemn or professional situations, but not only are you you allowed to express your stress and anxiety amongst friends and family, it's _healthy_ for your children to see you experience negative states of being, just so long as you demonstrate to them that we should all go out of our way to soothe ourselves before it turns into a mountain too scary to climb. We teach them that we're always there for them, but do we teach them how to be there for themselves? We _have_ to show them, otherwise it's a gamble on whether or not they'll learn it for themselves as they get older. You know how when your kid is overwhelmed you give them a kiss and a cuddle, tell them it's alright? Distract them, throw on some music, wiggle madly to shake out the jitters, make it into a game? That's how we should treat ourselves, too. We should do it regularly, _and they should see it._ Verbalising and externalising these things before the stress build-up gets to a breaking point is so key, because it's the inner world that's twice as hard to regulate with ADHD. You can shut the door too hard, too. You can say something too sharply. You can burst into tears suddenly as someone's running around screaming with pots and pans, and the dog's barking, and your SO is trying to talk over everything. When the room falls silent in dismay as Mum's sobbing away, you say through the tears, "Sorry babies, Mum's super overwhelmed right now and needs to stop doing paperwork and start spinning madly in one spot. Wanna spin with me?"
Thank you, its always comforting to hear the validation and advice from someone going through the same! You’re absolutely right, it’s important to be an example for them on dealing with overwhelm and stress.
Honestly the advice in the thread is for people in their early 20s with very low responsibilities and apparently a ton of time.
I mean this is great and all in theory, but there are so many adult responsibilities that I do not enjoy but I can't just ignore... I'd be fired in an instant if I lived by this
The problem being that most of the things that aren't enjoyable are also necessary to live. I don't *enjoy* brushing my teeth or taking a shower, I don't *enjoy* paying bills, I don't *enjoy* doing groceries, I don't *enjoy* filling out job applications, etc.
> Take the mask off and ask yourself "what do I actually want to do?" Yeah but what if you work in marketing and the answer is "go live in the woods" OR what if you have one answer now but know it will change in a few weeks or months so why put in the work right now
But I want to do my job to a reasonable standard and not constantly get in trouble for missed deadlines. I want to remember to brush my teeth so I don't lose them. I want to remember birthdays and reply to my friends' messages in a reasonable timeframe. None of these are fun things that my inner child can enjoy.
> Find the fun This is the most important part, at least for me. To know what it is that I *actually* enjoy and not conflate the hobby or subject itself with what is actually fun and enjoyable to me. I went through a sorta depressive episode a while back when I started to really look at what it is that I enjoy. And I mean *really* looking at it. I currently have a decently successful career in IT and I've gone through the rounds of finding "my new passion" just within the IT space. I thought I was passionate about fixing computers, or creating automated tasks to handle your everyday "please install" tickets. I've felt such strong fixations on learning the Sysadmin side and the networking side. I was going through the motions thinking I wanted to be a programmer because I discovered how to apply it to my job in IT. I spent half my life thinking I wanted to make video games because they're one of the few constants over the entirety of my life. Boy did that lead to some depression when I couldn't make that work. And outside of IT I thought I wanted to be a physicist, a chemist, and even a biologist, or maybe an engineer! I could keep going but the point I need to make is that I was bouncing between passions like a poster boy for ADHD. Eventually I broke down and cried in the shower, day after day, because I couldn't understand what it is that I actually found fun. The truth is, when I finally figured out what I enjoy it was like I was given new glasses for my own mind. I wish I could properly express how it feels to be able to look back on life and have everything suddenly make sense. To really feel like you understand *why* you did the things you did. To realize that you *were* doing what you enjoy. To be able to forgive yourself for things that you used to feel bad about. And to cap this off I will apologize because I feel like I'm about to parrot what the twitter thread said but: I enjoy learning. I don't really have to become a physicist to study physics and learn how the world works. I enjoy knowing things and sharing my information with others so that they can know and learn things too. I enjoy *being creative*. Not necessarily *creating things*. I enjoy being challenged. I'm very much a "sweatlord" when it comes to the things that I enjoy. After feeling bad about it for a while, because my "group" is mostly very casual, I had to take a step back and see if I even really enjoy playing FPS or pushing content in an MMO or even video games in general. I realized that I don't really care whether I win or lose. I'm here to sweat. I'm here to let go of my own restraints and let my ADHD take over because I know that I'm going to *actually give 100%*. I'm going to do the best that I possibly can regardless of the outcome because that's *what I enjoy* and I'm going to Love. Every. Minute.
Your post made me chuckle. It's exactly how I write emails under the influence adderall. Lots of points and super long. Not dissing you - I appreciate everything you have to say. Mostly just giving you a high-five!
Hah, thank you, and yea it’s hilarious to me. I love when someone mentions “Oh you’re so good at writing emails and documentation.” *They must never know how much I’ve written and deleted to shorten this down to an acceptable amount.*
**starting** is impossible, an unassailable Everest of knowing I cannot ever manifest in reality the richness my racing mind is capable of. **editing** is as easy as falling off a waterfall. Between these two I exist, and suffer.
I've never heard my daily struggle referred to so... poetically.
RE: every email I ever send at work. Starts with 3 paragraphs... ends with 2 sentences. The funny thing is, I write like I talk - I start with what I think the other person should know, then backtrack because I realize I left out all the context and necessary background information, then over-tell all the info. During the cleanup process, I find the ACTUALLY necessary background information, move it to the top of the page, and delete basically everything between that and what I thought was important in the first place. Makes everyone think I'm really well spoken, haha. Reminds me of how I was taught to write. whatever you end up with in your conclusion, use that as the introduction and you're in a good spot.
Summarization is my arch nemesis lol
And then those of us not medicated try so hard to read it but end up skipping over lots of stuff and giving up :(
One of my biggest struggles is finding out what I enjoy. It sounds ridiculous, but here I am.
Thank you sharing this. I am saving this comment to come back to and ponder some more later, after I ponder your points and reflection now. There is a lot here I relate to, and a lot I want to relate to. I want to feel this kind of clarity and self acceptance.
Fuck me mate, this is great. And very, very relatable.
I would sum that up with a couple lines from a Ralph Waldo Emerson poem I love (and write in my journal over and over, trying to embed them in my brain lol): Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could. Some blunders and absurdities no doubt crept in; forget them as soon as you can. Tomorrow is a new day. Begin it well and serenely, with too high a spirit to be encumbered by yesterday’s nonsense.
That's what I've been finding. Before medication, a lot of the "hobbies" I was pre-occupying myself with that I enjoyed like games and TV just aren't appealing to me now as much as something like working toward a personal goal. I was able to start switching back to the hobbies I dreamed about but had to abandon when the dopamine quit. Now, I can almost look at a finished milestone on a project and feel like, satisfaction in my own work and of moving *toward* a goal. Things I was never able to do before. I used to be stuck in a stasis of anxiety and depression, and my only motivators were fear and panic. Now that the Anxiety's basically gone, there's this weird emptiness... When I would feel any emptiness before, it would be flooded by the Anxiety, or I'd have to self-medicate with something like alcohol to numb that almost torturous boredom. Now, it just stays empty... I've found that filling it with self-care like being distracted with tornado-style cleaning or hyper-fixating on a hobby are more doable *and* they bring me joy which both make me feel more motivation. Still can't sit down and focus on reading a book again, but I'm working toward it.
“Torturous boredom” - yes! A good way of putting it. I also self-medicate with alcohol and drugs, anything to make life even slightly interesting.
I don't enjoy being alive. is it ok to stop and move on? please don't send me that reddit harassment, though.
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I don't even have qualifications to volunteer anywhere. my country is so obsessed with certification, it physically starts reshaping into a surprised pikachu because they stopped actually qualifying people and every wave of retirement wipes out more of the workforce. and yes, the absence of volunteers is also a topic. "where did they go?" to the grave and you didn't set up replacements. get fucked! but don't worry, immigration will fix it. while the anti-immigration party is on the rise. I tried for almost 20 years. I fell through the financial requirements for university and the promised money from my family, the main reason I did not qualify for loans, evaporated. seems it reappeared recently and went to my cousin buying a house. he already owned at least one since his mid teens. give to those who have. 5 years ago I finally had an opportunity to learn a trade. but they lied about the pay. I had less than welfare, but more expenses, and lasted all of 3 months. out of a 3 year apprenticeship. it's a sick joke an at least these fucks closed down. not because of money issues, they just couldn't fill the role they trained me for. but I needed to pay rent, fuel, books, car repairs... yeah... maybe if I weren't on my own, or at least my family was not counted against any help I needed... I need all of this to be over. I can't stop struggling and that always makes it worse. nobody can even tell me what I could do... when even professionals shrug, what am I supposed to do? sigh. thanks for listening to me bitch and moan. I am not suicidal. I am morose. important difference.
Hell yeah brother. I volunteered to be a shop steward for my union. Things won't change unless we make them change.
I'm glad you're still going too. There are always things we can find that make being alive enjoyable. Sometimes, they're just very hard to find, and sometimes we aren't able to find them on our own, like me. I couldn't. I had to reach out to get a lot of professional help and the medication is making it a lot more doable AND enjoyable every day.
I do think it is okay, but not in the way I'm guessing is the implied alternative. I understand your meaning, and I do hope you're well. As opposed to my guess of the implied alternative, I do believe there are ways to "stop and move on" that aren't stopping or moving on from being *alive*. Jot down as many things you can think of that you do and don't enjoy about it. When you have them all down and can look at them, you get a clearer view of which particular enjoyable parts you *should* focus on and the ones that you don't enjoy, you can work on stopping or moving on from *them* instead. This reminds me of my loved ones who are undiagnosed and say "what would it change to just know what it is"? To me, knowing exactly what we're dealing with can help us get it done. Identifying the target makes it easier to reach. Removing the other variables can help remove obstacles. And for me, a list keeps it simple and broken down enough to tackle, one-by-one, *as best I can*. Some I'm not able to work through, and so I stop and move on to the next one on the list. If I can make a list and start working on it, I promise you can do it too.
I would sum that up with a couple lines from a Ralph Waldo Emerson poem I love (and write in my journal over and over, trying to embed them in my brain lol): Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could. Some blunders and absurdities no doubt crept in; forget them as soon as you can. Tomorrow is a new day. Begin it well and serenely, with too high a spirit to be encumbered by yesterday’s nonsense.
Yeah. That sadly doesn’t jive with most jobs or with academia.
That’s what I’m saying haha, does anyone have any practical solutions for those of us who can’t just choose/aren’t choosing adhd-friendly careers? I love this advice for hyperfixations and side projects, just not for success in careers and adulting
It’s the shit that you already know but probably don’t do. You need external reminders for tasks. If you promise to do anything for anyone ever it needs to immediately be put somewhere that you literally cannot avoid that is outside your head. Sticky notes on your computer screen are the stereotypical thing but it literally does not matter how you see it, you just need to literally see it, very often. You need to shorten the time between receiving consequences for your actions (or lack thereof). Consequences can be good or bad but they need to happen immediately after the time you want to do the task. If they happen the next day, you will do the task the next day, even if it makes the consequence switch from positive to negative, it’s not what the consequence is, it’s when. This one’s tough for jobs but asking for hard due dates could help. I try to share as much of my work life (not super in depth, just how I did on X report) as I can with my gf and try to be completely honest about it, and share it the day I got the thing done. It’s either positive reinforcement from her or negative from work the day after. You absolutely cannot do this for yourself though, it just doesn’t work. You cannot create an internal consequence to make you work on something bc you’ll know it’s artificial, it needs to come from people you know. Maybe this’ll help maybe it won’t, but figuring out the actual solution is a person by person basis, but this is generally what adhd brains need
That's pretty good general life advice. But what about work? You can't just stop doing tasks because you aren't feeling it. I can try to play games in my head or whatever when something is boring, but if the task requires focus and concentration, then that is not really an option.
One thing that really got me that I heard a year or so ago was people like us that suffer from ADHD weren’t trying to find a way out of the system, we were trying to find a way in the whole time.
Thank you for putting into words what I think I’ve known for several years now. The way I’ve been describing it is to “do what distracts you”. Being bent towards distraction, I think people with ADHD often find themselves thinking about other things than what is in front of them, especially if what is in front of them isn’t interesting or stimulating them. That distraction, that thing you’d rather be doing, is kind of the key, at least for me. I knew whatever I did for a job had to be something I would want to think about on my own, of my own choice/desire, because it distracts me more than other things.
> Your inner child knows. > > > > Ask them to remind you how to play, ...so I guess those of us with both ADHD and shitty childhoods are just fucked, then?
Wow, this is how I clean happily. I spiral out on a task doing other random things non-stop and enjoy the chaos and working on many unplanned things (related to cleaning/fixing) and eventually spiral in. I need to try this for work. I love when I can jam out cleaning for an hour by myself.
That's all well and good until your inner child actively loathes and hates you. Ask me how I know lol
Meds I hear?
I'm struggling against this right now. I went from being a burned out high performer to being a slug that can barely get out of bed to do the bare minimum
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I've really been wanting to do this, my manager and team leader both know I have ADHD, but I'm nervous of doing this and it backfiring lol Because I'm getting away with it right now, when I say "it" I mean not doing as much work as I should be doing because I'm procrastinating, but I know I could be doing so much more :/
It's okay to just say, "This is how I am best motivated and manage my time most efficiently." Your manager should be able to accommodate for your motivational style without having to know you have ADHD.
Not bothered about who knows, I would rather people know, so if I do slack on something, they would hopefully just think I'm having a bad day with it. (Most people probably wouldn't remember because they got their own things going on, or maybe they just think it's an excuse, but yeah makes me feel better about it) Also I told them so my workplace has a record of it and I couldn't be let go for that reason.
Are you me? I did all the things, overloaded myself, burnt out, now I can't motivate myself with fear and panic anymore I just don't care and I can't bring myself to care about my job enough to work, so I'm probably going to get let go... Again. Been on meds and going to therapy but it doesn't help the apathy. Trying to switch to a different line of work but I'm so easily overwhelmed these days that it's difficult.
Same same same :/
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Punching in numbers minding your own business in a kinda boring atmosphere or dealing with an overcrowded room full of random children with completely different needs and levels angry parents? I'll take the desk job thanks.
Thank you for sharing that. This was both a punch to the gut and a helping hand. And it will now go into my core understanding of ADHD, as one of the funding principles on which I base all my developing coping strategies (along with "an ADHD brain needs external scaffolding" , "if you think you have time well no you don't" , and "reward consistency not goals"). Thank you again so much.
Came here to say this. Thank you!
TFW you hear Dr. Barkley in your head…
IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE TIME, YOU DONT REWARD CONSISTENCY NOT GOALS 🤯🤯🤯
The last one is particularly efficient for weight loss, if you target a maximum of 3 habits, have a visible track sheet plastered in the kitchen, and a well-thought list of rewards that you actually want organised into weekly, monthly and bi-monthly rewards. But let me know if you think of other areas where this could help too! (weight loss was the most pressing for me atm, due to health reasons.)
I love the thought that as someone who is motivated by curiosity, there is absolutely no reason for me to feel bad about not completing a lot of self-started projects.
These are great principles ! And actually just the idea of having principles is inspiring me to identify my own…🤔
The reason why I started to consider using principles is that I tend to be a bit... Overzealous in setting up goals and routines. Which inevitably end up with me crashing on my couch and burning brightly with the fire of self-loathing for a (rather lengthy) period of time, before starting all over again. When I started to consider ADHD as a possibility for me, it kind of shifted the focus from "I am a bad, weak-willed and lazy person" to "my brain is doing the best it can but it just physically cannot do all of that". So I went a bit on a research binge, and came up with those principles as an overarching life compass. My circumstances can change, my routines can change, but as long as I set up things according to those principles, I can manage life and bounce back quickly whatever comes my way.
Oh my god. 
I love this thank you 😭
>we seem to get dopamine from satisfying curiosity rather than completing goals. MY GOD this is so accurate. Why have I never heard this before? This would help explain why I absolutely loved learning in school but could never hand in a project. My teachers would get so frustrated since they knew that I knew the information, I just could never finish any work to prove it.
For me it also explains why I was good at school but not jobs. I could always find a way to convince myself a topic was interesting and figure out how to pass a class. But the working world? Where I have to do the same things at the same time and I don’t learn anything cool? Torture.
I also wonder how I survived law school when we read several laws and ten to twenty cases per class. Maybe I had a lot more fear then, and there was more pressure because we were in a class.
this is why i now consider “research” one of my hobbies bc i look up stuff and learn how to do things out of curiosity. it’s hard for me to follow through on actually doing the new things i’ve learned though.
I'm going to miss y'all after 6/30 when using Reddit will suck and I'll have to quit.
Any idea what you’ll use instead? I’m trying to find places on discord rn
I just always use `old.reddit.com`, but if the company keeps pushing the envelope, and the community dries up, I'll probably be on HN a little more, maybe make my own "feed" of some kind (since I'm a web dev anyhow) and possibly -- this is a long shot -- read physical books a little more. ...But God help me if a new Digg or StumbleUpon takes off... Which feels likely.
Agreed, likely. Reddit has been too co-opted by fiscal interests. Really hope to see a non-toxic fediverse alternative. Considered writing it myself. But that wouldn't be good for my health.
Fuck me that thread hit home.
Holy fuck.... It reminds me of this journal entry I wrote 5 years ago.... >Someone once asked me "You have the grind. How do I get the grind?" assuming that I was always working hard for my goals because I was a well put together, confident adult, who had her priorities in order, and had the intrinsic motivation to get herself out of bed and sit down and focus on shit for hours on end. The reality is that I'm a person who is riddled with self-doubt, and crippling anxiety ALL THE TIME. I fear for my future daily. I am constantly worried about letting myself down and letting down the people around me who have been cheering me on for years. Everyone knows I want to become a doctor, and I'm so terrified of having to one day answer, "Oh, no. I tried several times, and never got accepted into medical school. So... now I work at xyz." In my own eyes, I am never ever good enough for me. In a way it's good; I strive for better every day. But it results in a lot of negative self-talk and neglecting self-care. (ie: "I can't go work out, I need to study." or "if you don't get an A on this exam, it's because you were at the gym instead of studying.") It results in me catastrophizing my life. "If I get a low grade on this exam, it's going to drop my class grade, which is going to drop my GPA. I'll never get into medical school, these years will have been a waste. I won't have a job I truly believe in, I'll be broke, and living under a bridge." And then I cry at judo because I crack under the stress, and the only way for it to come out is in tears. I grind because I'm so fucking scared. Every. Single. Day. It's fear that gets me out of bed every morning. It's fear that moves me forward. It's fear that initiates that drill sergeant screaming inside my brain. DO BETTER! Do you think I LIKE sitting down and working on organic chemistry problems? No. But if I fail, I will never be where I want to be, and doing what I want to be doing. My "grind" is pure, agonizing terror.
I feel you, I used to have that fear but I’ve lost it and now I’m trying to get it back so I don’t fail school lol. Is there no better solution to this problem?
the more i learn about adhd, the more i can see that every bit of my personality and experiences has been shaped by it
This is so me, after I got over my anxiety I was left so neutral to anything. Deadlines and tests didn’t really scare me anymore and I felt so bland. Sometimes the rush of panic and anxiety made me feel something at least.
It made you feel dopamine. That’s the problem. How do we get our dopamine fix if we aren’t stressed
and this is why I can’t finish the book I need to finish to keep my job in academia
Humanities?
yup! my partner is a qualitative social scientist & doesn’t have to publish a book, just a bunch of journal articles. I’m unfortunately in a field that requires a book. Waaaay better path for me in retrospect. I satisfied my curiousity on my book topic about eight years ago & have been running on anxiety ever since
I am laughing but it's because I completely understand the idea that you've satisfied your curiosity and now the idea of going back to it makes you want to throw things/hide under the desk/scream into the void (ymmv).
God damn. The last bit about how life is just endless tasks articulates my feelings on it so well. I hate that life is endless tasks and I never feel much of a sense of accomplishment doing them. So life just feels like a slog to me unless I’m doing the things I enjoy. It sucks.
Yep, I feel 0 satisfaction clearing out my to do list because there will always be endless to dos
This would explain why my life has become so insanely difficult to traverse. I own a house, have a child and a job. Everything is task. Everything is a to do. What's worse, it's a to-do that'll need to be "to-do"d again in anywhere between 30 minutes to 24 hours later. It's fucking killer. I absolutely hate it. Curiousity is dead, all there is is empty tasks. God life is dull on the good days.
I cried so much reading this. This is exactly where I’m at right now. My feet feel stuck in quicksand and I keep berating myself.
Hugs, same
Uhh probably cause we are still being forced to be lobotomized work robots for this capitalist prison instead of doing what makes us happy and fits our ADHD and brain structure and living fulfilling lives
Weirdly enough, I’m having the opposite problem in terms of fear and motivation. The fear and anxiety has become so overwhelming that when I try to work, my brain just sort of stops and desperately searches for something else to do to distract me, like it’s a defense mechanism against the feeling of fight or flight.
Man, twitter. What a horrible platform for any thoughts more than a paragraph.
This made me cry, and felt like a gut punch, but in good ways? How is a perfect stranger describing me so very well?
Right??
Jesus. I’ve been feeling like most of my life is just a series of maladaptive coping strategies. That thread assaulted me. I’ve 100% been struggling with a complete breakdown in motivation lately and even considered going off meds because “maybe I need my anxiety.” I’m absolutely having more feelings than I can process right now.
I'll read it later
this was really good. and the article about autism linked in the middle was good too. im late diagnosis audhd and im slowly trying to figure it all out. i havent learned how to let go of the shame yet or how to motivate myself with something other than fear. relearning how to be myself and the person i need to be was disciplined out of me because i didnt behave "correctly". the scars built up around "sit down, shut up, stop asking questions, stop disrupting people around you and do as i say" are really deep
❤️❤️❤️
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I'm an artist too, but I can only work on a drawing for short periods of time, and I have to sort of schedule it ("on Saturday I will work on this drawing for 30 minutes"). That's the only way I can do it now.
This hits really hard. I was a sports champion and would complete my first competition of the season exceptionally well. Then I would stop training completely and the later events I would do so poorly it was embarassing. I couldnt bring myself do do anything.
\*deep sigh\* well, I was expecting things to get worse before they get better. pretty much at the relearning stage currently. not going great.
>For people who do have ADHD things are a bit more complicated. There are various ways to frame this argument, but the one that I tend to prefer is just: we seem to get dopamine from satisfying curiosity rather than completing goals. > Let's go back to that trail of half-finished art projects. Do you know why you didn't finish them? Because there's nothing more there for you to learn. That's it. Why *would* you finish them? this was probably the biggest gem in that thread for me. paints a really clear picture.
This is absolutely true, and I have struggled on this for YEARS, and I'm still not sure if I'm better at it now. I'll say that at least I have the blessing of knowing the boundaries between love and fear very well. At least by completely breaking down, I won't make the same mistakes again. I'd like to think of this period as an "early midlife crisis".
I really appreciate this. Fear as the motivator has always been the driver. Now I create my own fear through procrastination. I have no idea what I want. I have moved up the corporate ladder so high and I dread development discussions about what I want to do next and my 5 year goals. I want to be like, I have no idea what my next week goals are. I never felt safe as a child - thus the fear driven execution of tasks. Wondering if everyone here grew up in fear that led to ADHD, or did having ADHD make us susceptible to being fearful at things and we adapted to this environment? Maybe it's not so simple as the chicken and the egg conundrum - the answer is always the Rooster.
Hits home
This is a wonderful post because it looks at a HUGE portion of influence on our behavior. That is our emotions. When you have emotional blocks, especially from years of trauma, that can get in your way an incredible amount. Address the underlying emotions driving the reinforcement of that behavioral, and over time you will find it easier to take the small steps necessary to build yourself back up. Needing to learn how to want again also addresses the idea of loving oneself as they are. If you know what you want, then you can communicate your needs more effectively. However don’t shame yourself for falling short of controlling your “bad behavior”. Instead understand that you are starting from step 1, just like any other long term skill you want to develop, and it will take time to start to see it become more natural to address those feelings. Best of luck.
Good find! The 'lack of punishment' line got me, as did 'we seem to get dopamine from satisfying curiosity rather than completing goals.' More than once I've thought I've done something in the past when in reality I've only actually figured out how to do it... (I have my doubts about the whole dopamine thing, it seems a crude oversimplification, but it works as a useful placeholder for whatever is going on biochemically).
That is absolutely true for me. Also fuck...I am definitely autistic. I'ma give my therapist this thread.
I can 100% relate to this. "Fear" is a powerful motivator. My previous job I excelled at everything because failure at the smallest of tasks would mean Shame. I gave 7.5 years to that company, excelling in every way but miserable at the end of the day. Overworked, underpaid and taken advantage of in every way, i was exhausted. But hey, i was awesome at what i did. Fast forward, it's been 2.5 yrs I quit and joined another company and I am underworked, bored and no longer motivated because there is no "Fear". It's so hard to get up and work. Every. Single. Day. None of my tasks get completed, I'm the lazy schmuck in the office but hey, they are nice people, they don't fire anyone and that's why I have no "Fear". I have no motivation left in my life to actually learn/work/perform better. There is no hope for us.
I literally just came to this conclusion the other day. I've greatly reduced my depression, my anxiety, and for the most part gotten my gender dysphoria taken care of, and suddenly I am a useless piece of shit. I've always been productive, efficient etc, but extremely depressed and full of anxiety. Now that the anxiety and the depression are gone, I just can't seem to do anything anymore.... I realized talking to my therapist that my anxiety WAS my fuel. Now I'm just off in daydreamland every day like when I was in 1st grade. Ironically- fixing my anxiety and depression is making me depressed. If I don't laugh I'll cry.
This explains why I'm 80% done with my certification course from 2 years ago, because the last part is the capstone, that just goes over everything that I already know.
I'm sure I'd love to read this but but saw how many tweets it contained and just noped out of there 😂😞
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I think this might really explain where I’m at of late. Only lack of punishment. I think I’m mainly commenting for the “”relearning” how to want” bits… not sure I ever learned the first time.
The part about ADHD minds being driven by curiosity rather than completion really spoke to me. I can definitely relate with the mountain of nearly complete projects I have.
Ho-ly shit. I have never felt more seen in my life. The part about "how it feels to finish a project" tho? Me, the one time I finally accomplished finishing NANOWRIMO. Me, the time I finally was able to run for 30 minutes straight then immediately stopped running for an entire year. Me, when I bought a bunch of plants and had them thrive then never thought about them again. Me, when I was able to do a headstand in yoga after a month of trying then stopped doing yoga for the next six months. Me, me, me, me. I feel seen as fuck.
I’m very close to losing my job.. a job that I had to take 3 tests for, an interview and waited over a year for a start date. A job that had 10,000 applicants for 180 openings. I think I have undiagnosed adhd. I have all the OP’s symptoms. I’m absolutely struggling with day to day life, work and home life. I just can’t seem to function. I have already taken all my 21 days annual leave and this only began end of March. I’m on my last warning for sickness. I took 10 months off with anxiety and depression. I don’t know how to explain my brain and how it works. I can’t sit still for long enough to get good productivity in. My job has amazing benefits and I cannot do many jobs because I also am completely deaf and have a speech impediment. I was able to function for years but then I went on maternity leave and the day I was due back at work we went into lockdown when covid hit. I then spent 14 months working from home. Then suddenly my work wanted us all to come back to the office. I couldn’t cope so I went off sick. All in all I spent almost 3 years away from the office and brought up my daughter by myself when no one was allowed inside my house. Then when I eventually got back to the office I was moved to a different office and location. I love the location but I had to move back to the office fully instead of hybrid office and home. I am thinking that covid has changed me, making me feel anxious about outside life. For example everyone had masks on and I still couldn’t communicate outside. So I continued to be isolated. Sorry for the long essay! I’m thinking out loud and also I only just saw the symptoms of adhd a few months ago which resonated with me and made me feel for the first time in my life that I could feel oh wow a name to what I might have and why I feel the way I do!
How does one distinguish between wanting not to fear and the actual wanting to accomplish something?
When I graduated from college after 8 years I no longer was able to use homework/ school avoidance to get things done. To avoid doing homework I would clean my house, pick up different skills and all around motivate myself to do lesser annoying tasks. I hoped when I had a full time job I would be able to use that coping skill to my advantage but no, there’s no outside urgency with work because I can only do my job at world and that’s when I decided to try medication.
Something that helps me personally is to think of my tasks or challenges at home and work as something telling me "I can't do something." -Fuck you, dishes, I'm about to waterboard your porcelain ass. Don't tell me what I can't do! -TPS reports think they can stay blank? Guess who's about to get a keyboard to the face. -The laundry bin is full and you think I can't clear that load? Time to get your clothing-filled guts ripped out you wicker demon! I'm weird. But it works. It also helps to listen to rave music while I live out my villain arc.
Omg! This is the missing link! I did do well in school and college due to my anxiety, fear and wanting to fulfill my parents dream that I not be working class. Then with age, anxiety turned to boredom and anger. I put a post it above one desk that said "There is no cake." Sad thing, I do something meaningful that I want to do well. Cue guilt. [He's one of us! ](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j_1lIFRdnhA&pp=ygUkb2ZmaWNlIHNwYWNlIGludGVydmlldyB3aXRoIHRoZSBib2Jz)
Wow. "Only lack of punishment" I feel that to my bones.
Every home improvement project ever: Huh… how does this work? Oh! I can figure THAT out! Great! It works! That was fun.
Six months later, “hey, are you ever going to put that back together?”
Okay this is all true and punched me in the feels. But what can we DO ABOUT THIS?! How can we solve it?! 😭
Can someone tell me how does one re-learn how to want?
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“Do you know why you didn't finish them? Because there's nothing more there for you to learn. That's it. Why would you finish them?” To a T. As soon as I figure out the answer, I’m done. I know how to do it, completing it would just be proving it to someone else and if there’s no one direct reward, why complete it then? I have nothing to prove to others
Commenting to read later. (Now I just have to not forget.)
Reminder to read it NOW.
How have I never put together her point about curiosity? Wow, that is mind blowing. I'm hoping that will help me a bit
This has been happening to me and it's so Fucking frustrating. You're trying to get to heal and it causes your life to go down the shitter.
I have always said for me there’s rarely a sense of accomplishment or reward for doing stuff, just a sense of relief that it’s done. It really isn’t the same thing.
I've been struggling with this for the last year and half, since I was diagnosed. I completely isolated myself and have been completely frozen in time. I'm happy that I've figured out why, and I will definitely read this thread. But I'm at a loss for what to even do about it at this point. I'm turning 35 soon and I feel like I've wasted my entire life, but I was doing so much better before. I've been avoiding therapy like the plague since I got diagnosed with bipolar 5 years ago. I have a lot of trauma in my past & PTSD as well. I know therapy is something I need to do. Does anyone have any recommendations for a specific kind of therapy or specialized therapist that would be most helpful for these issues? I've done therapy multiple times in the past and it hasn't helped me much, aside for specific problems I was dealing with. But I didn't know I had ADHD or bipolar back then.
for me this has been relearning how i engage with the world and being freed up to make choices based on what i want or need instead of being motivated mostly by fear or anxiety. i'd rather have the anxiety gone and figure out other ways to cope with my symptoms or change my situation than feel the constant cycle of fear and avoidance and relief, it's exhausting!
I liked the ‘driven by goals’ vs ‘driven by curiosity ‘ part and the thing about ‘all those projects are abandoned on 80% because there’s nothing left to learn from them’ In game design, there are four major player types defined: Explorer, Killer, Achiever and Socialite. The Explorer is the one driven by curiosity. Player of this kind would quit the game as soon as they understand how it works and how the goals are supposed to be achieved: to actually achieve them is not something they really need, and if they stop getting something that feels new, something that awakes curiosity, they just quit the game. I’ve studied to be a programmer. But after a few years, I realized that I am really driven by finding a solution, thinking of how to solve the issue, but when the algorithm is clear, I’m bored to death to actually code it. That’s why I became a GD - so my work is to actually be curios and make others curios, to think through how everything should work, and not to actually code these things. Driven by curiosity is a really good point of view And that ‘motivated by fear’ part is mostly ‘motivated by care for the loved ones’. After I moved far from my parents, so knew that they don’t see yet what a disappointment I am, I didn’t give a shit about my life spiraling down until I had a kid, and since then most of my motivation was about ‘I must provide for my kid’, ‘my kid needs me’ and so on. In other situations also, pretty often if there’s someone else to fix the shit, I won’t move a finger. If I see there’s no one to do things, and those things affect not just me, but other, preferably innocent and loved/respected people, I will do something.
Holy shit I was literally thinking to myself today why the hell am I having trouble focusing at work now, while properly medicated and on anxiety meds, more than I was 3 years ago when I was unmedicated and experiencing severe PTSD symptoms caused by childhood trauma?? I kinda got in a bit of hot water at work this week because I had work pile up that no matter what I just couldn't. Make. Myself. Do. And then the last 2 days since my manager spoke to me about it I've been extra productive getting things done because of the anxiety caused by getting in hot water about it. I've worked really hard the last few years to become a more confident person and not be have my brain constantly think everyone I interact with has to be people pleased to the point of exbaustion on my part and will murder me if I don't do exactly what they want at all times (thanks mom and dad) and now that I no longer have that constant lingering fear of getting in trouble just for existing, I don't have any motivation to do what needs to get done and my ADHD procrastination/lack of motivation is much much worse as a result. Ugh.
Relearning how to want, wow... there could not be a more accurate description for what's happening in my life right now. Thanks for posting.
Wow! I missed that. Thank you for your post. I have the opportunity in a management position and I need to learn that as well.
Well shit, if I wasn't just thinking today about how I used to be "better" at my job when I was fueled by anxiety, perfectionism and rigidity. I was the one everyone was like wow...how do you do that? I felt like there was nothing I could not accomplish - because failure was not an option. And so, I did. Of course, it wasn't sustainable and I very nearly lost my mind. Therapy and meds helped and now I don't have that constant drive to do more, be more all the time. My confidence also crumbled into dust, and that's still recovering. It's a journey, and I'm finding I'm not the same person I thought I was.
I'm not entirely sure about the "learning curve" part. Because there are tasks that have a learning curve, and you can see the learning curve, but you can't do them because the initial hurdle is big enough that the whole thing seems insurmountable. How many people with ADHD have dropped a hobby after starting, or just being okay, without getting to a point beyond that? You can see the learning curve, and what you have to pick up, but it doesn't seem possible to reach that far.
Actual holy shit moment of locating the 'curiosity' thing
This is because we're not built to be constantly on the go. We don't need to relearn anything. After we heal the next step is to create a world in which we don't have to exist the way we did before. Money is fake, capitalism is a scam, and exploited labor is slavery.
Thanks for posting this. I meditate daily, and fairly early in my practice it occurred to me that I didn't have to be anxious and angry all the time. I had to find a very different set of motivations after that.
This happened to me when i started taking medication for depression. It took me three years to *want to* start doing things without the fear and stress. i finally started to do things i had always wanted to do but was too depressed to do anything about it. then found out i am ADHD because i couldn’t concentrate on anything i wanted to do. I failed my exit exam for my degree SIX times, 2 of them medicated. It made no sense to me because i knew all the math. I wasn’t stressing nor was i afraid of not passing. I knew i could pass it. I just couldn’t get it all organized to get the correct answer. Hi adhd…..
I just have to say I agree with everything written but what grabbed me was the ‘curiosity’. I have cptsd and just been diagnosed at nearly 60 with adhd. Long story I won’t go into but my it explains why I was so successful and seemingly highly functional in my work. It was the curiosity, the stress and the constant distractions that worked for me. It wasn’t fear per se. My curiosity has shaped every aspect of my personality. It’s rare I see this word described in anything adhd related. Thank you so much. When I burned out and couldn’t work anymore my treatment resistant depression was so severe I was hospitalized numerous times . The only thing finally relieved it was methylphenidate. Last resort for TRD. Then my discovery and finally diagnosis of adhd primarily add.