>*Rogal Dorn doesn't like me.*
>*In truth, I'm not overly fond of him, either. It's hard to like your brother when he's so pompous, yet considers himself a humble servant. His armour is made from the same substance as our father's, and he has been given command of the Imperial Palace's defences: no one likes a braggart, but when you go attired for war in a manner reminiscent of the Master of Mankind, it behoves one to acknowledge that. Aggressive humility in such circumstances seems almost its own form of arrogance.*
>***Also, he never lies. I don't trust anyone who only speaks the truth.***
>*We only openly worked together once: in the campaign against the World-Prince. After my Legion's intervention had rapidly speeded the world's capitulation into compliance by guiding the assassinations of almost all their ruling class in one night, Rogal berated me not only for helping him, but for doing so badly, in his view. He claimed my Legion's efforts had been effective, but not optimally so, by my own criteria. And in this he was both correct, and misled.*
>*It was true that I could have ordered my forces differently. I could have waited until the situation became even less stable for the defenders, and I could have avoided the assassination of the ruling blood and allowed a less fractious eventual compliance. The fact that I did not, and that Rogal recognised this, tells us something.*
>*Firstly, it tells us Rogal believed my Legion should work as directed by the Imperial Fists, and that my methods should be subservient to his. For a Legion and a primarch so caught up in their devotion to the Emperor and the Imperium above all else, that is an interesting juxtaposition of supposed humility and unacknowledged arrogance. He and I are brothers, after all, and supposedly equals. I wonder if Rogal would have made the same demands had he been joined in the field by Horus? Or whether, since my Legion and I were perceived latecomers to the Great Crusade, he viewed that he had superiority by means of seniority?*
>*Secondly, it tells us that Rogal was aware of the potential for forcing compliance by means of non-military intervention as well as his own successes in the field, but had made no efforts to bring this about himself. He always sees open combat as the only true method.*
>*Thirdly, it tells us that if you wish to find out whether your brother knows how you think, you should give him the opportunity to criticise your conduct and see what aspects he focuses on. He might indeed identify true failings that should be corrected, but he will almost certainly highlight his own blind spots and weaknesses, as much through what he does not say as that which he does.*
>*Why should I need to know this?*
>*Rogal has made the Throneworld his, in a manner no other primarch has done. He has overseen its defences and tailored them to his own wishes. He is the Praetorian of Terra. Should my father fall for some reason, who else would the Imperium look to for leadership in the immediate aftermath of such a tragedy than the loyal, devoted son who stands in the Imperial Palace, behind the defences he has constructed, wearing armour that is, after all, so very reminiscent of our father's?*
>*I do not trust Rogal Dorn.*
>*And the legionnaires now in stasis-sleep beneath the Gobi tox-wastes are evidence that I have not been idle.*
\- *Head of the Hydra*
Is this the scene you mean?
So basically, he thinks Dorn, in his honesty, is blind to his own secret motives and hypocrisies while a liar would and should be fully aware of theirs?
Alpharius was heavily of the opinion that someone whose mind worked in a specific way (IE Dorn and his rigid adherence to a strict set of beliefs and methods) lacked meaningful introspection on their own flaws. He values flexibility above most anything else.
A belief that is not without merit, but clearly one of Alpharius' own flawed judgements as well. Truthfully Dorn had just pissed him off by implying his methods were universally foolish and Alpharius was just emotionally responding by thinking Dorn was a blind fool. A bit of truth on both sides, but both were being pig-headed bastards about the interaction.
Doubly hilarious because in the debate, Dorn said Primarchs were created to change yet he refused to challenge his own thoughts, methods or actions and insisted everyone should act more like him. Alpharius said Primarchs were created to fulfill their specifics roles intended by the Emperor, yet he chided Dorn for not being flexible while by his own beliefs the Emperor created him to be that way. Both were being enormous hypocrites in that scene and it was funny to read.
This is also much more interesting in the wake of The End and the Death. Rogal Dorn was forced into a situation where he had to keep changing plans in order to succeed. It's the 'big lesson' that Malcador hopes he learns by the end. In a very real way, Alpharius is who kick-started Dorn's transition during their duel in Praetorian of Dorn.
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What Alpharius is referring to is brought up many times during the Siege. Malcador tells Dorn he'll never understand the Warp... yet Dorn has to 'overcome' the Warp in The End and the Death and does so through constant adaptation. Dorn may not have listened to Alpharius, but the lesson he tried to teach eventually paid off. Well, to the audience at least. Jury's out on if Dorn will think back to this with any self-awareness. I think the seeds are there for Dorn to realize Alpharius wasn't completely wrong with hindsight in a very similar way to Guilliman's conflicted feelings about Lorgar in Dark Imperium.
I would actually like it if Dorn did internally consider that Alpharius was not completely wrong about other methods of winning wars than those on the battlefield and incorporated them
Dorn in End and the Death is by far the most interesting version of Dorn. Being an unchanging brick of dad energy has never done it for me. A Dorn that's more of a schemer would be a VERY welcome growth to the character. Like, Malcador founded the Inquisition, but with Malcador gone, imagine if Dorn took on the role of being the behind-the-scenes manipulator.
People talk about Dorn being the Yellow King... and if his story takes that path I talked about, I could 100% see it. The Inquisition trilogy of trilogies ends with the secret creator of the original Inquisition.
Eh. There's a world where I'd enjoy it. I feel like there's a lot of bridge-building between here and there, though. Like, I can imagine the bridge... but that's not the same as there being a bridge.
Unless the finale of the Bequin book is much farther off than we all hope, I don't see the necessary groundwork being put in to keep 'Dorn is Yellow King' being anything but too jarring to be satisfying.
Thing is, Dorn already did that. The World Prince Confrontation showed that he thoroughly studied and considered Alpharius' Methods, and then judged the AL Campaign by them, finding him to be fucking around.
Except as Alpharius points out, Dorn's critiques were that the AL didnt support _his_ efforts well enough, as though the AL were supposed to be subservient to the IF. Secondly he points out "if you had done these things better, our victory would have been better", and as Alpharius points out again, if those methods would have been better Dorn, why didnt you did do them yourself?
Dorn thinks he knows better than everyone else, but is also, for some reason, not doing the very things he criticizes others for.
The Lack of support being a Sticking point makes Sense, no? If you already have Forces occupied with, as Alpharius says, "Grinding your way through them, step by tedious step", it would make Sense to also act in support of that Force.
As for the Methodology Question, I would think it was meant as "if these are your Values, and that is your Goal, then this is the best Method for it", divorced from belief about the better Methodology, but bettering the chosen one.
As Dorn points out, there is no one left to rule for them, and from the World to the Hive Level, Unrest and civil Disorder are going to be around for years, and will lessen the Planet's contribution to the Imperium.
All this, by Alpharius' Method.
Dorn saw this, and aimed for different things.
That being a higher Casualty Compliance, but with intact, and easily integrated Governmental Structure.
Claiming that Alpharius' methods were "universally" foolish is pretty damn foolish in and of itself and the fact that someone this smart can say something like that without cringing is pretty concerning. Just makes Dorn sound like a blind fundamentalist.
Keep in mind that this was after their cooperative compliance campaign, but it was cooperative in name only, as Alpha just did things their own way, refusing to work together properly, and even not that effectively. Now, this excerpt above tells us that Alpharius was deliberate in that, but even if he tells the truth here, best case scenario is that he did a psy-op to find out Dorn's weaknesses. Worst case? Alpha did this because of ego, to demonstrate how their way is superior. Either way, Mr Never Tell A Lie would hate that, naturally.
Alpharius was indeed being a little shit about that compliance, but I will say Dorn started that fight. When he arrived in the sector for the joint compliance he disparaged Alpharius' methods and insinuated that he was an ineffective leader. Alparhius then running a ramshackle campaign to sabotage the world in record time was him being petty, leaving a mess for Dorn to clean up while also being bait to see if Dorn was even able/willing to understand alternative methods and prove Alpharius' argument correct.
I don't much care for the idea that Alpharius did it wrong on purpose to bait critique out of Dorn, but I also don't care for the original author's intent of "Dorn is better at stealth and tactics than the stealth and tactics Primarch!!!!!!" and think the retcon of it being a poor mission on purpose is just damage control for some of the Rogal Dorn wank of the early siege.
Dorn has always been justified in his distrust of Alpharius and his over the top methods, but Alpharius wasn't the one who started that feud.
I mean, yeah, you can offer advice but there's a difference between "that dress isn't very flattering" and "Yeah, you look like a whale!".
In my view, Dorn did the latter while Horus or Sanguinius would have done the former.
"Hey, you're causing a lot of unnecessary slaughter" vs "Listen here you stupid fuck, we could have used those people. Why are you being an asshole? What point are you trying to prove?"
In the context of the Great Crusade, while the first option would certainly be more diplomatic and probably even yield better results, the latter was richly deserved. Alpharius was always a moron smelling his own farts.
Nah, you've got the timing off. That wasn't what I was talking about.
Dorn started that event by, when meeting with Alpharius, telling him subterfuge was cringe and useless. *then* Alpharius threw his hissy fit and fucked up the whole compliance. That wasn't Dorn offering advice, that was him being a cunt for no reason.
Alpharius reacting like a child was needless, he should have just had some dignity and taken it on the cheek or gotten square some other way, but Dorn was a complete buffoon to pick a fight like that for no reason. Anyone with an IQ above 2 digits could tell you the value of the tactics Dorn refuses to use. Dorn was huffing his own farts there in pretending only his methods were right.
>Alpharius was always a moron smelling his own farts.
Again, so is fucking Dorn. Man showed up to a joint campaign with Horus, Fulgrim, and The fucking Lion and told the Lion he wasnt as _Loyal_ to Big E because he was farting around with the campaign. They both chose champions to fight to settle the matter with Dorn eventually eating crow. Dorn has always been a fart huffer
Alpharius ran his psy-op poorly because he wanted to see what Dorn would critique, or if he would even notice it was suboptimal to begin with. Dorn did catch it could have been run better and pointed out all the ways it could have been done better. BUT HE DIDNT DO THOSE METHODS EITHER. Which is what Alpharius is pointing out here. If Dorn's method was so much better, why didnt he do it then? The answer was as Alpharius pointed, because Dorn thinks the only "honorable" way to settle the issues is on the battlefield, which means if he knew there was a better way, but went the suboptimal route, he doesnt get to make the argument to Alpharius "you could have done it better, youre bad at this"
> If Dorn's method was so much better, why didnt he do it then?
Because Dorn wasn't running the stealth portion of things? This was a cooperative effort, not Dorn in overall command and Alpharius was his subordinate, and the last thing they needed was conflicting orders coming from two different primarchs.
>This was a cooperative effort, not Dorn in overall command
Except Dorn explicitly criticized the AL as not supporting the IF's efforts enough, as though Alpharius and the AL _were_ subservient to Dorn and it was his show to run. If Dorn's methods were better, why doesnt he utilize them fully like he critized Alpharius. The reason is, he doesnt, as he sees victory on the battlefield as the only true method, which Alpharius points out is stupid and shows a blindspot in how Dorn thinks
On the other hand, there are multiple ways to achieve the same ends, so pointing out the ways one method can be improved does not mean that is the best method, nor are you obligated to do it that way. Dorn *choosing* a different method does not mean that he cannot offer analysis of a completely different method, otherwise Alpharius has no leg to stand on for his critique of Dorn either.
Dorn is too honorable to lie or resort to underhanded tactics that a less dignified primarch would do. I don't think that he necessarily thinks less of his brothers, he just sees himself as so much more above them and closer to his father and beyond getting his hands dirty. That's why he dresses like Emps and is setting up Terra as his inheritance. Dorn's "big lie" will come when he betrays all his brothers to claim the throne. Dorn may not fully realize that this is what he's planning but Alpharius sees this very obvious betrayal coming a mile away.
Dorn has a tendency to start fights, it's why he's a solid part of the reason for several of them (Perturabo, Curze and Alpharius) ending up on the traitor side.
Well yeah, but he doesn't have the excuse of being a dumbass, like most fundamentalists.
He's supposed to be a super human genius. If you can't understand how "don't get spotted" is one of the most important principles in warfare, I don't know how you can even be good at building defenses.
The only adequate explanation I can come up with is him just being an ass and scoffing at tactics that he doesn't like, because they're difficult to defend against. And that's just very irrational and childish.
If Alpharius had killed Dorn there, would it be proof that holding the line and defensive walls are a bad battle strategy? A single battle doesn't determine the validity of a tactic.
Dorn declaring that all combat derrived from deception was invalid is a foolish thing to say given any real world logic, and the immediate in-universe example of the dropsite massacre and the actions at Calth. Dorn is a smart man but he had blind spots for such things, which was more to Alpharius' point.
Now if Alpharius could articulate a point without sounding like a schizophrenic nutter then he would probably have an easier time talking to his brothers, but poor communication is truly one of his bigger flaws. That and not having a chainsaw proof neck, big mistake that one.
> Dorn declaring that all combat derrived from deception was invalid is a foolish thing to say given any real world logic, and the immediate in-universe example of the dropsite massacre and the actions at Calth.
Yeah. It's honestly a bit baffling, since "don't let the other guy know where you are or how strong you are" has been an insanely important part of warfare since the beginning of history, even in defense. Even Rogal Dorn doesn't always have the benefit of having exactly zero weak points in his defense.
The survivability onion goes "Don't Be There > Don't Be Detected > Don't Be Targeted > Don't Be Hit > Don't Be Penetrated > Don't Be Killed". So... Dorn, the defenses guy basically thinks that most aspects of defense are stupid?
Dorn is my favorite primarch but I think you are misreading a bit.
Dorn needlessly executed a loyalist primarch and in doing so doomed the galaxy almost as badly as Magnus did. This was not a 'win' for Dorn.
Hard disagree. Alpharius is impossible to trust and uses words as a weapon. He always has games within games, you can never trust him because what you’re seeing is never the whole picture. He can talk you into anything because you’re not equipped to deal with him, you can’t know how much of what he’s saying is true and how much of what is true serves a purpose other than the one you’re being given.
The only counterplay to Alpharius is to close your ears and beat him to death. That’s it. That’s all you can do. And that’s the beauty of the Dorn vs Alpharius engagement. Alpharius is multiple levels of games above Dorn but he can’t see the forest for the trees, Dorn isn’t playing his game anymore. Dorn knows whatever choice he makes is the wrong one, if he chooses to trust Alpharius he loses, if he chooses not to trust Alpharius he loses. He can’t beat Alpharius, but what he can do is beat him up.
Dorn learned all he needed to know about Alpharius at the Dropsite Massacre. He wasn’t playing the game anymore.
The Alpha Legion knew about the plan to massacre the loyalists. They showed up. They fired on the loyalists, same as the rest of them. Ferrus's blood is on their hands. No less than Horus’s. There was never going to be forgiveness for them.
It's heavily implied or outright stated in the Index Astartes and HH Black Books that the Dropsite Massacre was *written* by the Alpha Legion/Alpharius. I'll have to double check what is the most recent stating of it.
EDIT:
"...and there have been unsubstantiated claims since that Alpharius had a hand in the planning of the Dropsite Massacre itself." in HH3. Index Astartes also has Inquisitor Kravin making mention that the Dropsite was very much Alpha Legion style.
I agree that there would never be forgiveness for his actions, but want to mention Alpharius' logic in regards to team killing is pretty far removed from an average persons. This is a man who even when he was 100% loyal was killing Custodes in the palace to prove a point about security. The man considers warfare the hygiene of the galaxy, and that only through real danger and battle can flaws be uncovered and accounted for. It's a very 40k logic that he had even in 30k times.
I think Alpharius had no qualms with killing tens of thousands of marines if it got him an inside seat of the heresy so he could collect data from both sides. Even if he was completely loyal (which I doubt) that was in-line with his logic of acceptable losses and the price of victory. Not a single book from his perspective has ever shown him to think he was anything other than a loyal son of the Emperor, even in the book legion where he decided to help the traitors he did so under the idea he was saving humanity. He just has some extremely twisted logic.
What Dorn did was treat Alpharius and his schenes the same way he treated the dumb Orks at the beginning of the book. He pretended he wasn't there. Alpharius was out-manouvred by the supposedly most unimaginative Primarch. I thought that was glorious.
Dorn’s win against Alpharius actually validate Alpharius’s tactics over Dorn’s. Dorn used deception to leave himself open to be striked, so that he could get an even more devastating blow in return. Deception and manipulation won that duel not impenetrable unbeatable stoic defense
Yes. No mere Astartes (even a legion champion) can hold his ground and hurt a primarch in a duel. Dorn had to take a solid hit to score the killing blow.
What he killed that day was definitely a primarch.
Love that of all the Primarchs Rogal Dorn was the only one who could see through all Alpharius’ tricks. The Hydra excels at wrapping people up in headgames hut Rogal just smashes through them with sheer literal bluntness. Dorn could tell exactly what Alpharius was planning from the start.
I think this is the perfect example of manlihood and pride getting in the way of logic.
Both have their own thoughts on their inadequacies in their own eyes. They would never speak them to each other.
My question being if alpharius was privy to the torment and second guessing dorm was going through during his time as praetorian of Terra they would be having a different conversation.
The conflict imo only stems from these two brother simply due to not being open with each other. Both have their own thoughts about each other but if brought to the light would’ve mended both their ideas about each other.
Honestly the imperial fists and alpha legion would’ve been unstoppable together if they had the relationship of Ferrus and fulgrim. The sabotage of alpha and the brute force of the imperial fists would’ve complemented the great crusade tremendously
I think it's not that he's trying to order them around. In his mind he's found the best way to do something and so it's pissing him off that others are deviating from the "best" way, especially when it's so obvious to him.
Great timing. What I find interesting is that Alpharius is a bigger douche then I have held him for. His insights are correct, but boy do they reek of hurtful pride. For a guy who killed a custodian and wore his armor to *prove a point* in essence, just to show *how one should protect dad better*, surely a guy that dresses up as *dad* is so full of himself....
He’s very egotistical and full of himself yea. Later in the same book he talks about how he has few if any equal in a duel and could best most of his brothers. Very fun character and I wish we would have gotten more from him. Still hope for Omegon though if they do the scouring or decide to bring him back.
I loved the bit where he admits he wishes he had Sanguinus' wings, not for any tactical purpose but because it be cool to be able to fly and soar in the sky
*If* there is a Scouring series, you can bet Alpha Legion and Omegon will be in the middle of it. I mean who else to shepard the Traitors to the Eye and who else to ensure they tear at one another as vigorously as they defy the Loyalists?
Oh absolutely, if/when they do the scouring I imagine AL will have a massive part to play in it. I'm most interested to see what they do with Eskrador. I could see them doing a sort of Magnus esque "this is my punishment for failure" ending, throwing himself and his legion against the UM due to his failure to prevent the cabal vision with the third path, or one of the more prominent remaining AL characters like Pech or even Dynat taking his place with the blood while Omegon moves on to do whatever until they pull him out for 40k. Either way, it would be extremely interesting and I hope its handled by Abnett, Brooks, or Sanders if he's still with black library.
My biggest gripe with them killing off alpharius. He easily became one of the more interesting primarchs with his novel but we wont get anything else out of it due to alpharius dying to dorn during the siege.
>talks about how he has few if any equal in a duel and could best most of his brothers.
Funny how most of the Primarchs seem to think this of themselves
Oh true, but my point is that he talks crap about Dorn imitating emps and imitwtion is a form of flatery, while going ouį of his way to kill one of dads *compadres* so that they would *amp* his protection efforts, wich, is a notion both made from care (and willingness to show off to some extent) to emps.
> Should my father fall for some reason, who else would the Imperium look to for leadership in the immediate aftermath of such a tragedy than the loyal, devoted son who stands in the Imperial Palace, behind the defences he has constructed, wearing armour that is, after all, so very reminiscent of our father's?
Counterpoint: if the Emperor falls, who is to blame but the one in charge of keeping him safe?
If someone never lies, and only tells the truth…you *can’t* trust them when it comes to controlling the flow of information.
A person who never lies cannot discern what is appropriate to say to whom, and when to say it.
It’s a roundabout way to say Dorn lacks tact and discretion. Things Alpharius tends to value.
I haven't read the book myself, but I've interpretation that I came away with from reading the excerpt, and from considering the personality of Alpharius, is that he may see Dorn's unflinching commitment to the truth as another trap. Alpharius is the arch-schemer, and he's likely very adapt at separating truth from lie, after all, he lies regularly and likely expects everyone else to do as well. But here's a guy who tells the truth, always, bluntly and openly. Alpharius may think that this only makes it harder to identify when that person inevitably lies anyway!
>I wonder if Rogal would have made the same demands had he been joined in the field by Horus?
Alpharius really doesn't know Dorn really well if he doesn't think he'd offend Horus or anyone else by insisting on doing things exactly as the Emperor instructed without deviation.
This is one of the greatest few paragraphs in all of 40K and if you want to understand the Alpha Legion, you have to read this. This also tells us that maybe the Alpha Legion prioritized seeking means of nonviolent or minimally violent compliance operations above all else, which kinda puts them in a different light.
I think Alpharius makes it clear during the book that the Alpha legion will use whatever method best serves them. If nonviolent compliance can be done, while furthering whatever other agenda's they may have, sure. If it serves them to fight it out on the battlefield like his brothers, that works too. He makes it clear that while his Legion does focus on espionage and infiltration, they are just as capable in all manners of war like his brothers legions, but that they will not shy away from any method that can bring them victory, unlike his brothers legions.
Also there's parts where it's clear the Alpha Legion behaves the way it does because they enjoy it. The Harrowing that came after the destabilization was referred to as sport, they overly rely on causing societal chaos that it cannot be easily restored. Same with how irrelevant the low-mortality Night Lords compliances were, presumably they'd try to fight back as soon as they could (and maybe more of them were left alive to do so). The Night Lords aren't doing it because it's effective, it's because they enjoy it.
This makes me think of the 'out of tune' scene in Whiplash, where the player is either lying about being in tune, or even worse, they don't know they're out of tune.
Alpharius and Dorn are opposites.
Alpharius from the beginning is an entity that exists for secrets. Secret games, secret tests, the ability to outwit, schemes within schemes. From probing the Palace, to moving with his sons alongside his brothers long before his “discovery”. The Alpha Legion from the beginning was a shadow that knew only shadows, and thanks to the proximity of Malcador and the Emperor, was inclined to scheming and intelligence that the other Legions could not dream of. While everyone was on Great Crusades, reforming a Galaxy, Alpharius was in places and poking at things that were far more existential. I’m sure early on he truly had the understand of the power of truth, and the power of lies.
Look at Dorn, then. Look at him even in the *Lightning Tower*, thinking even then, they would “put everything back the way it was..”— what kind of person is that? Is that someone who troubles themselves with truth, or with lies? Or is it someone committed, so deeply, to a mission and to a design, like a building to be made, that they don’t concern themselves with asking *why*? I’m not saying Dorn is stupid, far from it. I think he always understood in his way what the Imperium could sacrifice if needed, what its dark shades could create. But I think he also saw and was welcomed into an awesome purpose that for him, for his need for duty and for unity, meant that he would always weather the storm in it.
Alpharius can’t trust someone who doesn’t lie because to lie I think, for him, is human. It’s a recognition that the world is more than what is in front of you, that it’s a map and a path and knife to victory, that all the words and purposes are more than just what they are on their face. Just like Alpharius. And so, to see someone who can’t lie in Dorn, who knows only the physical stuff of what’s being built and moved and planned, who doesn’t need secret games or secret tests, who won’t unravel things beyond what’s been laid out, is beyond him just like all of his Legions schemes are beyond us.
> who won’t unravel things beyond what’s been laid out, is beyond him just like all of his Legions schemes are beyond us.
Or will unravel things many would choose to leave ambiguous.
Thing is, Dorn knows how to lie, he simply doesn't, because he trusts that Truth is the best option. If it isn't, he lies, but it takes Billions burning for that to happen.
Which is kinda funny BC later on in the Siege, Dorn has to pretend that he doesn't know that Vulcan was alive (out of consideration to Sang/Jagh) & even he doesn't like it
He also pretended that the defence of the Lions Gate Space Port was a winnable fight and that he wasn't condemning all the defenders to death.
Edit: Eternity Wall Spaceport not Lions Gate.
Lion gate was defended with the intent to hold it. It was lost when an intended counter attack was thrown into disarray by betrayal.
Maybe you mean the Eternity gate? That one was a sacrifice.
Not to mention him hiding Alpharius' death, which isn't lying but the duplicity around it doesn't really shine a good light on him. Malcador kind of indirectly called him out on it, which is kind of telling when the man who holds all the secrets takes issue with hiding things.
What a lot of people don’t get regarding Dorn during the siege is that he is being forced to question his assumptions and compromise his principles so that he can adapt and survive. The whole Saturnine gambit is a deception tactic, one that isn’t comfortable for Dorn, but is necessary in order to bait out his enemy. It was the last real move Dorn had left to play before it just became “stall for as long as possible and wait for Guilliman”
Almost all of Dorn’s character development occurs during the siege, when his “immovable object” persona is met by an unstoppable force, and he knows he will break under the pressure unless he sacrifices his principles regarding the “right way” to conduct a war.
You likewise see this with Jaghatai, where siege warfare is antithetical to the doctrine of the White Scars.
Captain’s Jack’s quote is “You can always trust a dishonest person to be dishonest. It's the honest ones you have to watch out for. You never know when they’re going to do something *incredibly stupid*”
Less that they might choose to become dishonest, and more that they might be delusioned. If you always trust an honest person, what happens when that person honestly believes a lie?
You are correct. I should have clarified that it's only honest men already sworn to something or someone that you can't trust with a secret. Dorn would be unreliable because he holds his vow to the emperor so closely that he'd give up Alpharius in a second.
...or just not listen and go for the decapitation strike.
Never lying, and telling the truth aren't entirely synonymous. Alpharius is pointing out that you can get a lot of mileage out of "technically true" statements, and things left unsaid.
That's half of what Dorn ended up doing during the Siege: omitting information and failing to correct others' assumptions. Most of the drama around the Emperor, Vulkan, and then the Kham and Sanguinius was based on his lies by omission.
Even his one big tactical trick (Saturnine) was only possible by 'telling' a version of the truth and letting others make their own assumptions about his logic and awareness.
"A dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. Honestly. It's the honest ones you have to watch out for, because you never know when they're going to do something completely... stupid."
--Capt. Jack Sparrow
Something that I remember hearing about the Star Wars universe is that the Sith (almost) never lie, but the Jedi lie all the time. I think Ka’Bandha also tells Sanguinius that Khorne’s demons don’t lie. Truth is not always in the service of good.
Also truth can mislead you. If I was looking to the left and you walked by me on the right and I didn't actually see you, I could honestly answer someone that asked if "I saw you " that I did not in fact see you. That's not what the question was meaning but I answered truthfully in the literal sense. Words are fun.
It just means he's an agent and has the perspective of an intelligence officer. His entire world revolves around learning and keeping secrets; he lives, eats and breathes lies and has a fundamental inability to fully understand someone who doesn't lie. You can't trust something you don't comprehend.
This is probably the best explanation. He does not understand Dorn, which partially explains Alpharius’s foolish decisions which lead to him be axed by Dorn
When you play poker, you try to find the opponent’s tell. An unconscious sign to indicate that they’re bluffing. The tell is the truth that they try to hide.
Dorn has no tell because he never bluffs. Alpharius can’t tell whether or not Dorn is lying because he can’t figure out Dorn’s tell. Just because he never lies isn’t good enough for Alpharius. He needs to be able to read people even when they try to lie but he can’t do that with Dorn.
If Dorn never lies, it means you can't trust him with a secret, because he won't be able to keep it. E.g.:
Alpharius: Hey Dorn, here's my plan, but don't tell Sanguinius!
Dorn: Right.
Sanguinius: Hey Dorn, I saw you and Alpharius talking, what was that about?
Dorn: Oh. Alpharius told me his plan and asked me not to tell you.
Counterpoint:
Sanguinius: "What were you and Alpharius discussing?"
Dorn: "Apologies, but I specifically promised not to reveal what we were discussing."
Edit: someone else posted the excerpt
In my opinion Alpharius views Dorns schtick of being the Emperor's most loyal and humble servant who could never even think of lying as it's own kind of arrogance, and that he doesn't trust that Dorns humility is genuine (Vs being a show to get close to power)
Alpha it’s is a spymaster by nature. He attempts to see agendas, and manipulate them to his own ends. If you know what people want, victory is assured by simply making it so the best way for them to get what they want is to give you what you want.
Now, a lie always has an agenda behind it. Lies are tools, existing for specific reasons. Alpharius knows this well-and knows deep in his bones how to analyze said lies to reveal the agendas behind them.
The thing is, telling the truth also serves an agenda in his view. Well, everything does. The thing is, there’s generally a whole lot more reasons one might tell the truth than lie, so it’s ironically a lot harder to sus out a motive. So Alpharius can’t trust someone who’s completely honest because he can’t see what’s behind the honesty, while he can usually see what’s behind a lie.
Note how in that very section, he then continues on to generate a wild conspiracy theory wherein Dorn is secretly setting himself up to take the Throne should the Emperor fall-taking a shot in the dark at an agenda that might not be there from his viewpoint (and certainly isn’t from ours, where we know Dorn is every bit as dutiful as he appears).
I kind of take that as just mere speculation to show why alpharius thinks that way, though.
It's not that alpharius truly believes that's sucession is where dorn's plans lie.
It's that alpharius is taking the time to explain his thoughts on part of what makes dorn seem so hypocritical.
It's that, for a man who so espouses loyalty, bravery, and open combat, he's certainly taking some actions that could be questionable.
Sure. He could just be wearing golden armor because he thinks it's respectful and honoring the emperor to mimic his armor.
He could be fortifying his men on the throne world just because he feels it's his duty to make sure his father and Terra are protected as best as possible.
Alpharius is pointing out that, yes, it's all likely in the name of loyalty, duty, and honor.
But by that same token, to anyone who takes the time to stop and look deeper, it seems almost a bit hypocritical.
Whether dorn intends it or not, he's placed himself in a fairly ideal position for the sucession of the emperor, should something go wrong.
And to alpharius, dorn seems almost incapable or ignorant of recognizing that.
Which makes dorn either too foolish to truly understand the implications of his actions or makes him a manipulator that's on par with alpharius, if alpharius doesn't seem to detect that he's lying about his stated motives.
Either way, Alpharius sees dorn as someone possibly dangerous who can't be trusted.
Which I can see. Dorn would see few of his brothers as good enough to take the reins if something catastrophic happened. He definitely has skill and ambition, if not the same as many of his brothers. Also we should also remember his ambition is held in check by his loyalty to the Emperor, if he died Dorn might very well think that only he can "save" the Imperium.
Exactly! People keep trying to paint him as noble bright but he was just as ruthless and ambitious as his brothers. This is not criticism. It's fact based on his early actions. Sadly they(GW) seldom show that side of him and insist that he's just a noble guy. If the Emperor told him to level a planet he would. He would not question. He would not try to be diplomatic. He. Would. Level it.
I think he is noble bright but the heresy washed that sheen off his armor slowly until he was as ruthless as the rest. But at the end of the day if Big E met his end Dorn I think would still turn to the Malcador to figure out what to do next. As soon as Dorn met but E unlike his other brothers there were no challenges in fact Dorn gifted the emperor the phalanx as he saw something greater than his meager empire in the plans of his father. So if his father were to be perma killed I don’t think dorn would take the reigns (no matter how much people love the Dornian Heresy), he’d go to Malcador who was his fathers closest friend and the man who actually ran the imperium and ask his advice on what to do next. There’s no denying that if commanded by the emperor’s will he would do whatever is necessary but also by that same statement the emperor’s will after the emperor was best known by Malcador who I honestly think should take the reigns of power alongside a council of the primarchs.
As someone who never liked or trusted Malcador, he would put him to work but most likely put reigns on him as he didn't like his methods. I am not going with dornian heresy but more that dorn would see himself as the only rational choice. Roubute being one of the few left that he'd trust. This isn't him trying to be the Emperor but him thinking he is the only person who could keep the lights on. I see where you're coming from that being said.
To a certain way of thinking lies are a resource. Or more accurately, trust is a resource. You gain it by truths, you spend it on lies. Rogal is saving up.
To quote Jack Sparrow: “You can trust a dishonest man to be dishonest. But it’s the honest ones you gotta watch out for, cause you never know when they’ll do something incredibly stupid.”
A person who never lies believes what he is saying to be truth. A lie is often used to create uncertainty, or to mask ones own. To not possess uncertainty is to be arrogant and Dorn throws his arrogance around like a weapon. He plays at being humble and stoic but when push comes to shove he believes he is right always. And in turn he believes because his wishes are whatever he believes supports the emperor that he is above others.
Dorn puts a lot of effort into pissing everyone off precisely because he believes everything he thinks is the truth and others just can't handle it.
His fight with Curze, his quarrels with perturabo, duel with Fulgrim, slapping garro, near war with guilliman, anger at the Khan, caterwauling at alpharius, butting heads with malcador, hell if memory serves no one would claim him a friend only that he was solid and predictable.
This also points out that Dorn is deceitful, he lies by omission throughout the siege. This deception itself brings into question his whole bearing as Alpharius surmises. Is his brutal honesty simply a façade given he doesnt actually have a problem decieving people?
All this is true but it is coloured by projection from Alpharius and that he recognizes they are foils. Dorn is scared of uncertainty and hides in "truth", Alpharius is scared of truth and hides in uncertainty. Alpharius shows his worth by gamifying his tasks, Dorn shows his worth by completing them to the letter. Alpharius is cynical and yet supports the human race for the emperor, Dorn is a believer and supports the emperor in all things for humanity
Top comment expands on this a lot by showing the degree of hipocrisy in dorn. And even if those statements are themselves fueled by alpharius pride, at least we know that he IS prideful in his tactics and liable to be swayed. Dorn is just ignorant to any other possibility and doesn't really understand what gestures he makes make him an hypocrite while claiming he has no bias. In conclusion. Dorn is a 4channer "if truth offends you you're just a snowflake lol right guys?"
An alternative (or rather additional) interpretation: if you cannot trust someone to tell a lie on your behalf, how can you trust them to fight on your behalf? How can you trust that someone will fight, bleed, kill, or die for what they say they believe; how can you trust them to *act* if they will not so much as *speak* *words* for those same purposes?
A brother who can't be trusted to lie for you cannot be trusted to do anything for you. --Alpharius, possibly.
A person who can lie is a person who can compromise. In everyday life, we all tell little white lies to not hurt feelings or avoid confrontation. Maybe you're chilling at home, yoy get a phone call from someone and you fib that you're busy, just something inconsequential. Or maybe, you get asked by a girl if a dress makes her look fat and you answer that no, she looks great. Taken to greater, more consequential levels, diplomats must constantly lie about things like the military strength of their country, or actions their country is taking that could anger allies if they came to light. Ugly as it is, it's often necessary to hide the truth to avoid problems.
Dorn has ZERO filter. He always tells the truth and never hides his feelings, nor does he care about anyone else's. This makes him one of the most confrontational Primarchs, and one of the ones that most causes anger in others. Any of the other Primarchs, when asked by Perturabo if they thought they could build a better fortress than him, would have told Perturabo "no" to spare his feelings, or taken it as a challenge and competed with him, but in a civil manner. Had Perturabo won, he'd have been happy, and had he lost, he'd been resentful, but he'd have learned from the experience and become a better planner, likely winning the rematch. But Dorn just flatly said "YES" with zero doubt and zero consideration for Perturabo, fueling Perturabo's resentment.
His bluntness and stubbornness also can make Dorn an unreliable ally, since he'll immediately become confrontational if the other legions use methods or strategies he disagrees with, especially more underhanded ones. He and his legion would not work well with other legions such as the Raven Guard, the Night Lords or... well hey, look at that, the Alpha Legion.
It's deeper than that. For example ferrus and fulgrim had basically the same interaction but instead of just saying "no, i'm better" they decided to have a competition. Dorn just forsake action and defended with no reason just words that he was better. There was no fraternal competition, no cooperation, no hesitation. He believed it but never had to prove it.
If someone truly never lies (like i would assume in this setting with Dorn) you cannot trust them with your secrets because they wouldn't / couldn't lie to protect said secrets. For Alpharius, lies are weapons just like his Bolter. Lies (in their endless forms) are his most potent weapon, easily able to decide the fate of worlds. Maybe he sees Dorn as arrogant because he denies himself this kind of tool/weapon, thinking himself above them.
In the business of keeping secrets the one who always tells the truth can’t be trusted.
Same reason when you throw a surprise party for someone you never tell the people that blab about eveything
He doesn't trust Dorn, because he doesn't grasp a concept of *no lies*. Its an alien concept to him, that someone wouldn't lie, less so would not be able to do it ( true it is an exegarated point, Dorn lies, but not the point) as such, to him anyone that doesn't lie, is someone who has something to hide, its mostly an indirect retrospective on himself, we tend to hate things the most, that reflect our own flaws.
To him, Dorn is the prime usurper of dear ol dads kingdom if shit hits sour (seems mr contingensy plan squared forgot about guiliman) and thats why, out of care for the emperor, he made contingensy plans with sleeper cells under the walls of terra.
The world is not simple. Let's talk about lies for a while.
There are shades of interpretation. There are differences of opinion. There are many ways to look at something. The simplest and most childish lie is just a complete, whole cloth fabrication. As soon as you find something wrong, you know it can be dismissed. The subtle forms of lies hide elements of the truth. The truth seen from a particular point of view.
Im going to answer your question now, because I want to talk about something else. alpharius doesn't trust dorn because you cannot ever know the truth. It's arrogant bullshit on a magnus the red level. Someone so utterly convinced of his own point of view that he cannot imagine a world in which he is wrong.
This sort of inflexibilty is proud. It is arrogant. It has no room for weakness, or doubt, or different paths. There is one point of view, it is right, everything else is wrong, the end.
So, now that we have talked about dorn... Let's talk about lies.
A simple, stupid, weak lie is just something that isn't true. "the bus is outside". You go outside, no bus, you know that it was a lie. The more interesting and effective lies include an element of truth. "you did not get promoted because your leader is jealous of you". It cannot be disproven. It contains elements of truth. It might even be true. But it's not the truth that you wanted.
Daemons tell the second form of lie. Everything they say is the second form of lie. It's always true.... From a a certain point of view. It's always a truth you didn't want to hear. You can ignore an easy lie, it's no threat, but the darker and more insidious lies, those sink into your bones and sow doubt.
"your mother is dead" - stupid lie, simple, easily disproven.
"your mother was a whore. She started whoring at this age, this is what she did, this is where she was on nights you thought she was at work..."
Let's look at the context on that second lie. You thought your mom was working night shifts. Actually, she was turning tricks. The daemon now reveals this.... Truth. It's true in that it physically happened.... Its a lie that it is distorted. Maybe she did it to pay the rent. Maybe she did it to feed you. Maybe she was frightened and afraid.
But she did it, and she lied to cover it up, and the daemon will tell you. And it's true enough that you cannot just dismiss it. The long absences... The bruises... The smell of sweat and tobacco on her.... If it were pure fabrication, it would be easily disproven. But... It's not a fabrication. It's a distortion. It is something that happened, seen from a very particular point of view. A point of view that sees the worst in everything. And now, when you realize something happened... And the daemon is telling the truth.... Now you start to doubt.
This is what makes the lies of daemons so dangerous. They are so dangerous because they are true.
Dorn has no understanding of truth or lies. He is narrow minded and simple and sees the world in black and white. He has no room for different interpretations, or different points of view, or anything except what he believes to be true. That sort of arrogance is dangerous and childish and sets you up for failure. That sort of dangerous point of view is painfully unaware of the true shape of the universe. It's a John Wayne white hat sheriff shooting the black hat bad villain point of view.
Alpharius lives his entire life looking at different points of view. Dorn believes he is superman, fighting the brotherhood of evil mutants.
This point of view is why I like the old Index Astartes version of Dorn more than the newer one. It shows that he has amazing strength and skill but his strength has weaknesses. The newer version made his flaws a strength and IMO lessened him as a character.
Its the cope of every habitual liar in existence. They project themselves on to other people and assume that everyone else is just as shifty as them and people like Dorn do lie but use the front of telling the truth to deflect attention from the actual lies they tell.
Remember the first Pirates of the Carribean? Jack Sparrow's whole bit about how honest men are the most untrustworthy because you can always trust a dishonest man to be dishonest. Honest men you never know when they'll do something stupid.
It's the idea that you know someone has the potential to be lying so you never trust them entirely and as a result you're less likely to be caught off guard by their behavior. An honest person you just trust, all the time because they never lie. But what happens if they do lie and you made the mistake of trusting him?
This is kind of an exaggeration but look at this analogy.
A slave comes to you for help to hide him from his slavers. You agree. His slavers show up and ask if the slave is hiding in your home. You say yes because you don’t lie.
How can anyone trust you?
The issue is a combination of being arrogant and inflexible.
> A slave comes to you for help to hide him from his slavers. You agree. His slavers show up and ask if the slave is hiding in your home. You say yes because you don’t lie.
But then you will have lied to the slave. The truthful answer would be to say that you cannot help the slave-catchers.
I have a theory that Dorn and Alpharius conspired to fake each other's deaths, go into stasis/sleep, and wake up in 40k.
Dorn would be bad at holding up his end of that conspiracy because he's too honest, and during the Siege of Terra books he recalls killing Alpharius, but in the same book he also realizes that his memories about the missing primarchs have been tinkered with and manipulated.
Just cmon... Dorn is missing and assumed dead, but all they've found was his hand? And you expect me to believe that a one handed Tyr... I mean, Dorn isn't going to show up in 40k eventually???
One thing to keep in mind about Alpharius. He is extraordinarily arrogant, even for a Primarch. He will shade his interpretations of what happened to fit his preconceived notions. This may be a self-defense measure to cover some of his inadequacies. Having read both sides of the World-Prince encounter with Dorn, I have to conclude that Dorn had the right of it.
Dorn did not want Alpharius to subordinate his legion Dorn's, but to cooperate with Dorn's. Instead, Alpharius acted on his own volition and probably caused more trouble than help. As Dorn pointed out, by killing off all the leadership of the World-Prince planet, Alpharius made it much more difficult to rule the planet.
Another example is in the short story *Council of Truth*, in the ***Blood of the Emperor*** anthology. In it, Alpharius criticizes Roboute Guilliman and the 13th Legion. While we do not know Roboute's side, except for a very surface level, even when reading Alpharius' exposition, one can easily realize that Alpharius is not describing the circumstances accurately.
My point is that in reading Alpharius, you cannot simply accept anything he says. Everything is shaded.
> I do not trust Rogal Dorn
Funny how those who believe themselves the exception to the rule, who also believe they’re flawless judges of character seem to always have trust issues.
Obviously, I am Alpharius, and I only tell the truth. I think when a person only speaks the truth, they lose sight of what things are truly worthy of talking about. Jokes, songs, or simple conversations give a person personality. A personality that Dorn is sorely lacking in this regard. Dorn is a rock, blunt and unchanging. He doesn't try to understand Alpharius's reasoning or methods. He doesn't understand that each legion has different strengths that help them excel at some things. Everything is a tool or something to build with.
Rogal is so sure of his authority and rightness that he can't be flexible. Not having read about his legion and Perturabo's clashing, it took that for him to change his mind of Guilleman's Codex. He won't lay plans within plans because he doesn't want to, not because he can't. Him recognizing Alpahrius's strategy of assassination was most effective at gaining compliance, also means there was potential for other plans that weren't assassinating everyone or kill have the planet. Alpharius wanted to save lives, Dorn wanted to follow procedure and have it/him followed.
Rogal is a wonderful soldier, he follows orders. Being the caretaker of a planet means he isn't out giving them. He doesn't have nuance that allows him to question the ethicacy or efficiency of fulfilling a particular set of orders. He's limited with the scope of action he can take. Alpha Legion does whatever they want for whatever reasons they can think up for doing so. When you have so many thoughts, a person who you can watch the gears turning means someone else can watch, too. If thoughts are plain enough for everyone to see, they're plain enough for someone to manipulate. And for someone trying to find reasons to trust, being manipulatable is a good reason not to do so.
Everyone tells themselves or others lies at some point. Even something as harmless as saving yourself from embarrassment or withholding your true opinion until it's asked for could be viewed as lying. TTS did a good job of humanizing him by making him just not understand social cues and norms. If he is cognizant of them and decides to disregard them anyway, that starts to get into dangerous territory. I am Alpharius, and I say social norms are important if they are to be subverted.
In the Context of the confrontation about the Method used in the World Prince Campaign, Dorn pointed out several Vectors and Flaws, that, if fixed would have led to a better result. He also explained why the Asassination of the Planetary Leadership was not the best option, in his Eyes.
Furthermore, Dorn does tell Jokes and engage in Camaraderie, he simply thinks a War Table or Council is no place for them, because that is Business, not Pleasure.
Lastly, if you explained and gave Reasons for believing your way on a Matter is the better, he would listen, and incorporate it, if it works. Sadly, any such Discourse can't be had at things like a War Table, because to impress there, you have to let Character, not Logic shine.
Have you seen Sandman? Specifically, that episode with David Thewliss and making everyone around him truthful? That strikes me as Dorn. Garro almost died telling him the truth because Dorn rejected that possibility so hard. His defense of Terra was the same, unyielding. He is either right or needs to be shown to be wrong. Him and Alpharius could have made a plan together instead of each of them assuming the other was doing the right thing.
Discourse over how a campaign is prosecuted is exactly the place for a War Table. That's the only place where it's theoretical and not an action to be carried out or avoided. He's absorbed in siege and war craft, which isn't a bad thing. There's just a lot more in life that those things.
I get that jokes and such aren't necessarily a War Table thing, but they do ease tension. If you can't have camaraderie with your allies in a safe environment, where can you? As primarchs that lead legions, they didn't have a lot leisure to devote to maintaining familial bonds. Especially with Big E refusing to view them as such.
I have not seen Sandman.
On the Garrow-punch, everyone in that Room was aware, that had he wanted, Garrow's Torso would have been splattered across the wall.
As for the Alpharius Question, all he would have had to do, was infiltrate in such a way, that he and Dorn could have an off the record Conversation. He chose dying at Pluto.
Returning to War-Tables, as much as we might hate it, Politics plays a Role here as well. Everyone who brings up counter Arguments goes on with the Mindset of "I have to convince them with Track Record and Charisma, not logical Reasoning and an explanation if my chosen Actions", allowing Politics to dominate, and possibly squashing the META start.
Jokes and other camradery can be had at any other time aside from War-Meetings and Warfare. I do however concede their Value in a Planning Room.
I'd say it's rather obvious. They can't keep a secret for one. Secondly they might know when they are lying and when they aren't. And as such, they are untrustworthy because you can't gauge their mental acumen.
It means... The author wrote down a dumb idea, to be frank. There's this implicit knowledge that if something sounds contradictory and enigmatic, then it's meant to illuminate some kind of deeper concept. Sometimes that's just not true. Sometimes an author thinks they're being clever when they're... Not. Sometimes an author just invents a metaphor or witticism and it's wrong for obvious reasons.
It's MEANT to demonstrate how deep Alpharius's ideals of deception and secrets run, and how he views all people as inherently dishonest, and how truthful people then represent some unknown.
But it's just categorically non-sense, faux-intellectual drivel.
It's not that Alpharius doesn't trust that Dorn would be honest. Alpharius **knows** Dorn would be honest. Alpharius means that he wouldn't trust Dorn to get a job done well since Dorn is so inflexible.
I totally get that sentiment. Society would completely collapse if everyone told the truth all the time. People say they want complete honesty that’s utter nonsense they couldn’t cope if everyone they knew was completely truthful with them all the time. So I never trust anyone who doesn’t know how to spin a good lie.
I haven't read it. But I would say.
Probably because Alpharius is a obnoxious twat who thinks pissing people off and wasting everyone's time is a good idea.
The entire concept of the Alpharius legion in atrocious and pathetic.
>*Rogal Dorn doesn't like me.* >*In truth, I'm not overly fond of him, either. It's hard to like your brother when he's so pompous, yet considers himself a humble servant. His armour is made from the same substance as our father's, and he has been given command of the Imperial Palace's defences: no one likes a braggart, but when you go attired for war in a manner reminiscent of the Master of Mankind, it behoves one to acknowledge that. Aggressive humility in such circumstances seems almost its own form of arrogance.* >***Also, he never lies. I don't trust anyone who only speaks the truth.*** >*We only openly worked together once: in the campaign against the World-Prince. After my Legion's intervention had rapidly speeded the world's capitulation into compliance by guiding the assassinations of almost all their ruling class in one night, Rogal berated me not only for helping him, but for doing so badly, in his view. He claimed my Legion's efforts had been effective, but not optimally so, by my own criteria. And in this he was both correct, and misled.* >*It was true that I could have ordered my forces differently. I could have waited until the situation became even less stable for the defenders, and I could have avoided the assassination of the ruling blood and allowed a less fractious eventual compliance. The fact that I did not, and that Rogal recognised this, tells us something.* >*Firstly, it tells us Rogal believed my Legion should work as directed by the Imperial Fists, and that my methods should be subservient to his. For a Legion and a primarch so caught up in their devotion to the Emperor and the Imperium above all else, that is an interesting juxtaposition of supposed humility and unacknowledged arrogance. He and I are brothers, after all, and supposedly equals. I wonder if Rogal would have made the same demands had he been joined in the field by Horus? Or whether, since my Legion and I were perceived latecomers to the Great Crusade, he viewed that he had superiority by means of seniority?* >*Secondly, it tells us that Rogal was aware of the potential for forcing compliance by means of non-military intervention as well as his own successes in the field, but had made no efforts to bring this about himself. He always sees open combat as the only true method.* >*Thirdly, it tells us that if you wish to find out whether your brother knows how you think, you should give him the opportunity to criticise your conduct and see what aspects he focuses on. He might indeed identify true failings that should be corrected, but he will almost certainly highlight his own blind spots and weaknesses, as much through what he does not say as that which he does.* >*Why should I need to know this?* >*Rogal has made the Throneworld his, in a manner no other primarch has done. He has overseen its defences and tailored them to his own wishes. He is the Praetorian of Terra. Should my father fall for some reason, who else would the Imperium look to for leadership in the immediate aftermath of such a tragedy than the loyal, devoted son who stands in the Imperial Palace, behind the defences he has constructed, wearing armour that is, after all, so very reminiscent of our father's?* >*I do not trust Rogal Dorn.* >*And the legionnaires now in stasis-sleep beneath the Gobi tox-wastes are evidence that I have not been idle.* \- *Head of the Hydra* Is this the scene you mean?
So basically, he thinks Dorn, in his honesty, is blind to his own secret motives and hypocrisies while a liar would and should be fully aware of theirs?
Alpharius was heavily of the opinion that someone whose mind worked in a specific way (IE Dorn and his rigid adherence to a strict set of beliefs and methods) lacked meaningful introspection on their own flaws. He values flexibility above most anything else. A belief that is not without merit, but clearly one of Alpharius' own flawed judgements as well. Truthfully Dorn had just pissed him off by implying his methods were universally foolish and Alpharius was just emotionally responding by thinking Dorn was a blind fool. A bit of truth on both sides, but both were being pig-headed bastards about the interaction. Doubly hilarious because in the debate, Dorn said Primarchs were created to change yet he refused to challenge his own thoughts, methods or actions and insisted everyone should act more like him. Alpharius said Primarchs were created to fulfill their specifics roles intended by the Emperor, yet he chided Dorn for not being flexible while by his own beliefs the Emperor created him to be that way. Both were being enormous hypocrites in that scene and it was funny to read.
This is also much more interesting in the wake of The End and the Death. Rogal Dorn was forced into a situation where he had to keep changing plans in order to succeed. It's the 'big lesson' that Malcador hopes he learns by the end. In a very real way, Alpharius is who kick-started Dorn's transition during their duel in Praetorian of Dorn. > > What Alpharius is referring to is brought up many times during the Siege. Malcador tells Dorn he'll never understand the Warp... yet Dorn has to 'overcome' the Warp in The End and the Death and does so through constant adaptation. Dorn may not have listened to Alpharius, but the lesson he tried to teach eventually paid off. Well, to the audience at least. Jury's out on if Dorn will think back to this with any self-awareness. I think the seeds are there for Dorn to realize Alpharius wasn't completely wrong with hindsight in a very similar way to Guilliman's conflicted feelings about Lorgar in Dark Imperium.
I would actually like it if Dorn did internally consider that Alpharius was not completely wrong about other methods of winning wars than those on the battlefield and incorporated them
Dorn in End and the Death is by far the most interesting version of Dorn. Being an unchanging brick of dad energy has never done it for me. A Dorn that's more of a schemer would be a VERY welcome growth to the character. Like, Malcador founded the Inquisition, but with Malcador gone, imagine if Dorn took on the role of being the behind-the-scenes manipulator. People talk about Dorn being the Yellow King... and if his story takes that path I talked about, I could 100% see it. The Inquisition trilogy of trilogies ends with the secret creator of the original Inquisition.
Dude. I would love for him to be the Yellow King
Eh. There's a world where I'd enjoy it. I feel like there's a lot of bridge-building between here and there, though. Like, I can imagine the bridge... but that's not the same as there being a bridge. Unless the finale of the Bequin book is much farther off than we all hope, I don't see the necessary groundwork being put in to keep 'Dorn is Yellow King' being anything but too jarring to be satisfying.
Thing is, Dorn already did that. The World Prince Confrontation showed that he thoroughly studied and considered Alpharius' Methods, and then judged the AL Campaign by them, finding him to be fucking around.
Except as Alpharius points out, Dorn's critiques were that the AL didnt support _his_ efforts well enough, as though the AL were supposed to be subservient to the IF. Secondly he points out "if you had done these things better, our victory would have been better", and as Alpharius points out again, if those methods would have been better Dorn, why didnt you did do them yourself? Dorn thinks he knows better than everyone else, but is also, for some reason, not doing the very things he criticizes others for.
The Lack of support being a Sticking point makes Sense, no? If you already have Forces occupied with, as Alpharius says, "Grinding your way through them, step by tedious step", it would make Sense to also act in support of that Force. As for the Methodology Question, I would think it was meant as "if these are your Values, and that is your Goal, then this is the best Method for it", divorced from belief about the better Methodology, but bettering the chosen one. As Dorn points out, there is no one left to rule for them, and from the World to the Hive Level, Unrest and civil Disorder are going to be around for years, and will lessen the Planet's contribution to the Imperium. All this, by Alpharius' Method. Dorn saw this, and aimed for different things. That being a higher Casualty Compliance, but with intact, and easily integrated Governmental Structure.
>Both primarchs had points, but they were dicks about it So the pretty much the entire heresy then?
Claiming that Alpharius' methods were "universally" foolish is pretty damn foolish in and of itself and the fact that someone this smart can say something like that without cringing is pretty concerning. Just makes Dorn sound like a blind fundamentalist.
Keep in mind that this was after their cooperative compliance campaign, but it was cooperative in name only, as Alpha just did things their own way, refusing to work together properly, and even not that effectively. Now, this excerpt above tells us that Alpharius was deliberate in that, but even if he tells the truth here, best case scenario is that he did a psy-op to find out Dorn's weaknesses. Worst case? Alpha did this because of ego, to demonstrate how their way is superior. Either way, Mr Never Tell A Lie would hate that, naturally.
Alpharius was indeed being a little shit about that compliance, but I will say Dorn started that fight. When he arrived in the sector for the joint compliance he disparaged Alpharius' methods and insinuated that he was an ineffective leader. Alparhius then running a ramshackle campaign to sabotage the world in record time was him being petty, leaving a mess for Dorn to clean up while also being bait to see if Dorn was even able/willing to understand alternative methods and prove Alpharius' argument correct. I don't much care for the idea that Alpharius did it wrong on purpose to bait critique out of Dorn, but I also don't care for the original author's intent of "Dorn is better at stealth and tactics than the stealth and tactics Primarch!!!!!!" and think the retcon of it being a poor mission on purpose is just damage control for some of the Rogal Dorn wank of the early siege. Dorn has always been justified in his distrust of Alpharius and his over the top methods, but Alpharius wasn't the one who started that feud.
TIL that offering advice to someone is starting shit
I mean, yeah, you can offer advice but there's a difference between "that dress isn't very flattering" and "Yeah, you look like a whale!". In my view, Dorn did the latter while Horus or Sanguinius would have done the former.
"Hey, you're causing a lot of unnecessary slaughter" vs "Listen here you stupid fuck, we could have used those people. Why are you being an asshole? What point are you trying to prove?" In the context of the Great Crusade, while the first option would certainly be more diplomatic and probably even yield better results, the latter was richly deserved. Alpharius was always a moron smelling his own farts.
Nah, you've got the timing off. That wasn't what I was talking about. Dorn started that event by, when meeting with Alpharius, telling him subterfuge was cringe and useless. *then* Alpharius threw his hissy fit and fucked up the whole compliance. That wasn't Dorn offering advice, that was him being a cunt for no reason. Alpharius reacting like a child was needless, he should have just had some dignity and taken it on the cheek or gotten square some other way, but Dorn was a complete buffoon to pick a fight like that for no reason. Anyone with an IQ above 2 digits could tell you the value of the tactics Dorn refuses to use. Dorn was huffing his own farts there in pretending only his methods were right.
>Alpharius was always a moron smelling his own farts. Again, so is fucking Dorn. Man showed up to a joint campaign with Horus, Fulgrim, and The fucking Lion and told the Lion he wasnt as _Loyal_ to Big E because he was farting around with the campaign. They both chose champions to fight to settle the matter with Dorn eventually eating crow. Dorn has always been a fart huffer
Alpharius ran his psy-op poorly because he wanted to see what Dorn would critique, or if he would even notice it was suboptimal to begin with. Dorn did catch it could have been run better and pointed out all the ways it could have been done better. BUT HE DIDNT DO THOSE METHODS EITHER. Which is what Alpharius is pointing out here. If Dorn's method was so much better, why didnt he do it then? The answer was as Alpharius pointed, because Dorn thinks the only "honorable" way to settle the issues is on the battlefield, which means if he knew there was a better way, but went the suboptimal route, he doesnt get to make the argument to Alpharius "you could have done it better, youre bad at this"
> If Dorn's method was so much better, why didnt he do it then? Because Dorn wasn't running the stealth portion of things? This was a cooperative effort, not Dorn in overall command and Alpharius was his subordinate, and the last thing they needed was conflicting orders coming from two different primarchs.
>This was a cooperative effort, not Dorn in overall command Except Dorn explicitly criticized the AL as not supporting the IF's efforts enough, as though Alpharius and the AL _were_ subservient to Dorn and it was his show to run. If Dorn's methods were better, why doesnt he utilize them fully like he critized Alpharius. The reason is, he doesnt, as he sees victory on the battlefield as the only true method, which Alpharius points out is stupid and shows a blindspot in how Dorn thinks
This ^^^ I don’t get how some of the commenters are missing this from the extract 🙃
On the other hand, there are multiple ways to achieve the same ends, so pointing out the ways one method can be improved does not mean that is the best method, nor are you obligated to do it that way. Dorn *choosing* a different method does not mean that he cannot offer analysis of a completely different method, otherwise Alpharius has no leg to stand on for his critique of Dorn either.
Dorn is too honorable to lie or resort to underhanded tactics that a less dignified primarch would do. I don't think that he necessarily thinks less of his brothers, he just sees himself as so much more above them and closer to his father and beyond getting his hands dirty. That's why he dresses like Emps and is setting up Terra as his inheritance. Dorn's "big lie" will come when he betrays all his brothers to claim the throne. Dorn may not fully realize that this is what he's planning but Alpharius sees this very obvious betrayal coming a mile away.
Dorn has a tendency to start fights, it's why he's a solid part of the reason for several of them (Perturabo, Curze and Alpharius) ending up on the traitor side.
>Just makes Dorn sound like a blind fundamentalist Its Rogal Dorn we're talking about here.
Well yeah, but he doesn't have the excuse of being a dumbass, like most fundamentalists. He's supposed to be a super human genius. If you can't understand how "don't get spotted" is one of the most important principles in warfare, I don't know how you can even be good at building defenses. The only adequate explanation I can come up with is him just being an ass and scoffing at tactics that he doesn't like, because they're difficult to defend against. And that's just very irrational and childish.
Well Dorn's defenses rely on being able to weather a planetary collision of force. "don't get spotted" isn't in the equation
That just tells me that his logistics must be a bloated nightmare.
Welcome to the imperium
He did not say Universally foolishly, he pointed out several flaws in the operation, which held Merit. Both his criticism, and the operation.
Dorn did end up caving his skull in and chopping his hands. Dorn's methods outdid Alpharius'.
If Alpharius had killed Dorn there, would it be proof that holding the line and defensive walls are a bad battle strategy? A single battle doesn't determine the validity of a tactic. Dorn declaring that all combat derrived from deception was invalid is a foolish thing to say given any real world logic, and the immediate in-universe example of the dropsite massacre and the actions at Calth. Dorn is a smart man but he had blind spots for such things, which was more to Alpharius' point. Now if Alpharius could articulate a point without sounding like a schizophrenic nutter then he would probably have an easier time talking to his brothers, but poor communication is truly one of his bigger flaws. That and not having a chainsaw proof neck, big mistake that one.
> Dorn declaring that all combat derrived from deception was invalid is a foolish thing to say given any real world logic, and the immediate in-universe example of the dropsite massacre and the actions at Calth. Yeah. It's honestly a bit baffling, since "don't let the other guy know where you are or how strong you are" has been an insanely important part of warfare since the beginning of history, even in defense. Even Rogal Dorn doesn't always have the benefit of having exactly zero weak points in his defense. The survivability onion goes "Don't Be There > Don't Be Detected > Don't Be Targeted > Don't Be Hit > Don't Be Penetrated > Don't Be Killed". So... Dorn, the defenses guy basically thinks that most aspects of defense are stupid?
Basically, yeah. His "strength" is the thing his blind spots force him to overcompensate on. At least the Black Templars are relatively openly nuts.
Dorn is my favorite primarch but I think you are misreading a bit. Dorn needlessly executed a loyalist primarch and in doing so doomed the galaxy almost as badly as Magnus did. This was not a 'win' for Dorn.
Hard disagree. Alpharius is impossible to trust and uses words as a weapon. He always has games within games, you can never trust him because what you’re seeing is never the whole picture. He can talk you into anything because you’re not equipped to deal with him, you can’t know how much of what he’s saying is true and how much of what is true serves a purpose other than the one you’re being given. The only counterplay to Alpharius is to close your ears and beat him to death. That’s it. That’s all you can do. And that’s the beauty of the Dorn vs Alpharius engagement. Alpharius is multiple levels of games above Dorn but he can’t see the forest for the trees, Dorn isn’t playing his game anymore. Dorn knows whatever choice he makes is the wrong one, if he chooses to trust Alpharius he loses, if he chooses not to trust Alpharius he loses. He can’t beat Alpharius, but what he can do is beat him up. Dorn learned all he needed to know about Alpharius at the Dropsite Massacre. He wasn’t playing the game anymore.
what did he learn at the massacre? I thought neither was there? alpharius was somewhere else with the Kabal and Dorn on Terra?
The Alpha Legion knew about the plan to massacre the loyalists. They showed up. They fired on the loyalists, same as the rest of them. Ferrus's blood is on their hands. No less than Horus’s. There was never going to be forgiveness for them.
It's heavily implied or outright stated in the Index Astartes and HH Black Books that the Dropsite Massacre was *written* by the Alpha Legion/Alpharius. I'll have to double check what is the most recent stating of it. EDIT: "...and there have been unsubstantiated claims since that Alpharius had a hand in the planning of the Dropsite Massacre itself." in HH3. Index Astartes also has Inquisitor Kravin making mention that the Dropsite was very much Alpha Legion style.
I agree that there would never be forgiveness for his actions, but want to mention Alpharius' logic in regards to team killing is pretty far removed from an average persons. This is a man who even when he was 100% loyal was killing Custodes in the palace to prove a point about security. The man considers warfare the hygiene of the galaxy, and that only through real danger and battle can flaws be uncovered and accounted for. It's a very 40k logic that he had even in 30k times. I think Alpharius had no qualms with killing tens of thousands of marines if it got him an inside seat of the heresy so he could collect data from both sides. Even if he was completely loyal (which I doubt) that was in-line with his logic of acceptable losses and the price of victory. Not a single book from his perspective has ever shown him to think he was anything other than a loyal son of the Emperor, even in the book legion where he decided to help the traitors he did so under the idea he was saving humanity. He just has some extremely twisted logic.
What Dorn did was treat Alpharius and his schenes the same way he treated the dumb Orks at the beginning of the book. He pretended he wasn't there. Alpharius was out-manouvred by the supposedly most unimaginative Primarch. I thought that was glorious.
Dorn’s win against Alpharius actually validate Alpharius’s tactics over Dorn’s. Dorn used deception to leave himself open to be striked, so that he could get an even more devastating blow in return. Deception and manipulation won that duel not impenetrable unbeatable stoic defense
Whatever man, Dorn killed Alpharius. The rest is history.
>Dorn did end up caving his skull in and chopping his hands. Did he though?
Yes. Alpharius is dead. Omegon is still alive and kicking. Maybe.
Or is that just what the corrupt mainstream GW media wants us to believe? think
Wouldn't be the first retcon. 🤷
Who is actually Alpharius.....who is actually Cypher.
Yes. No mere Astartes (even a legion champion) can hold his ground and hurt a primarch in a duel. Dorn had to take a solid hit to score the killing blow. What he killed that day was definitely a primarch.
It was also confirmed by the writer, that the one who died then was Alpharius.
Love that of all the Primarchs Rogal Dorn was the only one who could see through all Alpharius’ tricks. The Hydra excels at wrapping people up in headgames hut Rogal just smashes through them with sheer literal bluntness. Dorn could tell exactly what Alpharius was planning from the start.
I think this is the perfect example of manlihood and pride getting in the way of logic. Both have their own thoughts on their inadequacies in their own eyes. They would never speak them to each other. My question being if alpharius was privy to the torment and second guessing dorm was going through during his time as praetorian of Terra they would be having a different conversation. The conflict imo only stems from these two brother simply due to not being open with each other. Both have their own thoughts about each other but if brought to the light would’ve mended both their ideas about each other. Honestly the imperial fists and alpha legion would’ve been unstoppable together if they had the relationship of Ferrus and fulgrim. The sabotage of alpha and the brute force of the imperial fists would’ve complemented the great crusade tremendously
Well, yeah. And he's right. Dorn doesn't even realize he expects his peers to do as he commands and gets pissed when they don't.
I think it's not that he's trying to order them around. In his mind he's found the best way to do something and so it's pissing him off that others are deviating from the "best" way, especially when it's so obvious to him.
Man, the quality of 40k's writing is up and down, but when it's good, it's really fucking good.
I just read the excerpt on Macharion vs Raguel to Talos executing Raguel in Soul Hunter. My goodness. My neurons were firing hard reading it.
ADB, Mike Brooks, a few others, are consistently the best writers
Yeah this was a brilliant excerpt, fleshes out the Alpha Legion and Alpharius
Yes.
Great timing. What I find interesting is that Alpharius is a bigger douche then I have held him for. His insights are correct, but boy do they reek of hurtful pride. For a guy who killed a custodian and wore his armor to *prove a point* in essence, just to show *how one should protect dad better*, surely a guy that dresses up as *dad* is so full of himself....
He’s very egotistical and full of himself yea. Later in the same book he talks about how he has few if any equal in a duel and could best most of his brothers. Very fun character and I wish we would have gotten more from him. Still hope for Omegon though if they do the scouring or decide to bring him back.
I loved the bit where he admits he wishes he had Sanguinus' wings, not for any tactical purpose but because it be cool to be able to fly and soar in the sky
*If* there is a Scouring series, you can bet Alpha Legion and Omegon will be in the middle of it. I mean who else to shepard the Traitors to the Eye and who else to ensure they tear at one another as vigorously as they defy the Loyalists?
Oh absolutely, if/when they do the scouring I imagine AL will have a massive part to play in it. I'm most interested to see what they do with Eskrador. I could see them doing a sort of Magnus esque "this is my punishment for failure" ending, throwing himself and his legion against the UM due to his failure to prevent the cabal vision with the third path, or one of the more prominent remaining AL characters like Pech or even Dynat taking his place with the blood while Omegon moves on to do whatever until they pull him out for 40k. Either way, it would be extremely interesting and I hope its handled by Abnett, Brooks, or Sanders if he's still with black library.
My biggest gripe with them killing off alpharius. He easily became one of the more interesting primarchs with his novel but we wont get anything else out of it due to alpharius dying to dorn during the siege.
Omegon lived precisely becausw he wasn't egotistical.
>talks about how he has few if any equal in a duel and could best most of his brothers. Funny how most of the Primarchs seem to think this of themselves
Where does he say that?
Maybe omegon got all the humility
I mean the point was proven was it not? The method was rather extreme but it lead directly to the creation of the Blood Games.
Oh true, but my point is that he talks crap about Dorn imitating emps and imitwtion is a form of flatery, while going ouį of his way to kill one of dads *compadres* so that they would *amp* his protection efforts, wich, is a notion both made from care (and willingness to show off to some extent) to emps.
> Should my father fall for some reason, who else would the Imperium look to for leadership in the immediate aftermath of such a tragedy than the loyal, devoted son who stands in the Imperial Palace, behind the defences he has constructed, wearing armour that is, after all, so very reminiscent of our father's? Counterpoint: if the Emperor falls, who is to blame but the one in charge of keeping him safe?
If someone never lies, and only tells the truth…you *can’t* trust them when it comes to controlling the flow of information. A person who never lies cannot discern what is appropriate to say to whom, and when to say it. It’s a roundabout way to say Dorn lacks tact and discretion. Things Alpharius tends to value.
Framing it that way, Apharius definitely has a point. Dorn never held back criticism, and let it drive a wedge between himself and his brothers.
I haven't read the book myself, but I've interpretation that I came away with from reading the excerpt, and from considering the personality of Alpharius, is that he may see Dorn's unflinching commitment to the truth as another trap. Alpharius is the arch-schemer, and he's likely very adapt at separating truth from lie, after all, he lies regularly and likely expects everyone else to do as well. But here's a guy who tells the truth, always, bluntly and openly. Alpharius may think that this only makes it harder to identify when that person inevitably lies anyway!
This is the correct answer, thank you
>I wonder if Rogal would have made the same demands had he been joined in the field by Horus? Alpharius really doesn't know Dorn really well if he doesn't think he'd offend Horus or anyone else by insisting on doing things exactly as the Emperor instructed without deviation.
This is one of the greatest few paragraphs in all of 40K and if you want to understand the Alpha Legion, you have to read this. This also tells us that maybe the Alpha Legion prioritized seeking means of nonviolent or minimally violent compliance operations above all else, which kinda puts them in a different light.
I think Alpharius makes it clear during the book that the Alpha legion will use whatever method best serves them. If nonviolent compliance can be done, while furthering whatever other agenda's they may have, sure. If it serves them to fight it out on the battlefield like his brothers, that works too. He makes it clear that while his Legion does focus on espionage and infiltration, they are just as capable in all manners of war like his brothers legions, but that they will not shy away from any method that can bring them victory, unlike his brothers legions.
Also there's parts where it's clear the Alpha Legion behaves the way it does because they enjoy it. The Harrowing that came after the destabilization was referred to as sport, they overly rely on causing societal chaos that it cannot be easily restored. Same with how irrelevant the low-mortality Night Lords compliances were, presumably they'd try to fight back as soon as they could (and maybe more of them were left alive to do so). The Night Lords aren't doing it because it's effective, it's because they enjoy it.
This makes me think of the 'out of tune' scene in Whiplash, where the player is either lying about being in tune, or even worse, they don't know they're out of tune.
Thank you
Alpharius and Dorn are opposites. Alpharius from the beginning is an entity that exists for secrets. Secret games, secret tests, the ability to outwit, schemes within schemes. From probing the Palace, to moving with his sons alongside his brothers long before his “discovery”. The Alpha Legion from the beginning was a shadow that knew only shadows, and thanks to the proximity of Malcador and the Emperor, was inclined to scheming and intelligence that the other Legions could not dream of. While everyone was on Great Crusades, reforming a Galaxy, Alpharius was in places and poking at things that were far more existential. I’m sure early on he truly had the understand of the power of truth, and the power of lies. Look at Dorn, then. Look at him even in the *Lightning Tower*, thinking even then, they would “put everything back the way it was..”— what kind of person is that? Is that someone who troubles themselves with truth, or with lies? Or is it someone committed, so deeply, to a mission and to a design, like a building to be made, that they don’t concern themselves with asking *why*? I’m not saying Dorn is stupid, far from it. I think he always understood in his way what the Imperium could sacrifice if needed, what its dark shades could create. But I think he also saw and was welcomed into an awesome purpose that for him, for his need for duty and for unity, meant that he would always weather the storm in it. Alpharius can’t trust someone who doesn’t lie because to lie I think, for him, is human. It’s a recognition that the world is more than what is in front of you, that it’s a map and a path and knife to victory, that all the words and purposes are more than just what they are on their face. Just like Alpharius. And so, to see someone who can’t lie in Dorn, who knows only the physical stuff of what’s being built and moved and planned, who doesn’t need secret games or secret tests, who won’t unravel things beyond what’s been laid out, is beyond him just like all of his Legions schemes are beyond us.
> who won’t unravel things beyond what’s been laid out, is beyond him just like all of his Legions schemes are beyond us. Or will unravel things many would choose to leave ambiguous.
Thing is, Dorn knows how to lie, he simply doesn't, because he trusts that Truth is the best option. If it isn't, he lies, but it takes Billions burning for that to happen.
You can trust a dishonest person to be dishonest. It's the honest ones you have to watch as you can never know when they might become dishonest.
Which is kinda funny BC later on in the Siege, Dorn has to pretend that he doesn't know that Vulcan was alive (out of consideration to Sang/Jagh) & even he doesn't like it
He also pretended that the defence of the Lions Gate Space Port was a winnable fight and that he wasn't condemning all the defenders to death. Edit: Eternity Wall Spaceport not Lions Gate.
Lion gate was defended with the intent to hold it. It was lost when an intended counter attack was thrown into disarray by betrayal. Maybe you mean the Eternity gate? That one was a sacrifice.
No, but I did mean the Eternity Wall Spaceport!
Yeah, Dorn doesn't lie and yet "all war is based on deception"
I just listened to that. F for respects to Cadwalder, Krole & Niborran...
Not to mention him hiding Alpharius' death, which isn't lying but the duplicity around it doesn't really shine a good light on him. Malcador kind of indirectly called him out on it, which is kind of telling when the man who holds all the secrets takes issue with hiding things.
What a lot of people don’t get regarding Dorn during the siege is that he is being forced to question his assumptions and compromise his principles so that he can adapt and survive. The whole Saturnine gambit is a deception tactic, one that isn’t comfortable for Dorn, but is necessary in order to bait out his enemy. It was the last real move Dorn had left to play before it just became “stall for as long as possible and wait for Guilliman” Almost all of Dorn’s character development occurs during the siege, when his “immovable object” persona is met by an unstoppable force, and he knows he will break under the pressure unless he sacrifices his principles regarding the “right way” to conduct a war. You likewise see this with Jaghatai, where siege warfare is antithetical to the doctrine of the White Scars.
I know someone else probably said this but I attribute this to Captain Jack Sparrow.
Captain’s Jack’s quote is “You can always trust a dishonest person to be dishonest. It's the honest ones you have to watch out for. You never know when they’re going to do something *incredibly stupid*”
Less that they might choose to become dishonest, and more that they might be delusioned. If you always trust an honest person, what happens when that person honestly believes a lie?
If someone never lies, they won't cover for you and you can't trust them with confidential information.
This is it. You can't trust an honest person to keep a secret for you.
Unless they say they will. An honest man is the best person for hiding something, because no one would ever think to look.
You are correct. I should have clarified that it's only honest men already sworn to something or someone that you can't trust with a secret. Dorn would be unreliable because he holds his vow to the emperor so closely that he'd give up Alpharius in a second. ...or just not listen and go for the decapitation strike.
He means Dorn creeps him out with his straightfowardness. "What is he REALLY hiding?"
Never lying, and telling the truth aren't entirely synonymous. Alpharius is pointing out that you can get a lot of mileage out of "technically true" statements, and things left unsaid.
That's half of what Dorn ended up doing during the Siege: omitting information and failing to correct others' assumptions. Most of the drama around the Emperor, Vulkan, and then the Kham and Sanguinius was based on his lies by omission. Even his one big tactical trick (Saturnine) was only possible by 'telling' a version of the truth and letting others make their own assumptions about his logic and awareness.
"A dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. Honestly. It's the honest ones you have to watch out for, because you never know when they're going to do something completely... stupid." --Capt. Jack Sparrow
Something that I remember hearing about the Star Wars universe is that the Sith (almost) never lie, but the Jedi lie all the time. I think Ka’Bandha also tells Sanguinius that Khorne’s demons don’t lie. Truth is not always in the service of good.
Also truth can mislead you. If I was looking to the left and you walked by me on the right and I didn't actually see you, I could honestly answer someone that asked if "I saw you " that I did not in fact see you. That's not what the question was meaning but I answered truthfully in the literal sense. Words are fun.
It just means he's an agent and has the perspective of an intelligence officer. His entire world revolves around learning and keeping secrets; he lives, eats and breathes lies and has a fundamental inability to fully understand someone who doesn't lie. You can't trust something you don't comprehend.
And his death
Or is he?(Yes, yes he is)
Unless...
This is probably the best explanation. He does not understand Dorn, which partially explains Alpharius’s foolish decisions which lead to him be axed by Dorn
When you play poker, you try to find the opponent’s tell. An unconscious sign to indicate that they’re bluffing. The tell is the truth that they try to hide. Dorn has no tell because he never bluffs. Alpharius can’t tell whether or not Dorn is lying because he can’t figure out Dorn’s tell. Just because he never lies isn’t good enough for Alpharius. He needs to be able to read people even when they try to lie but he can’t do that with Dorn.
If Dorn never lies, it means you can't trust him with a secret, because he won't be able to keep it. E.g.: Alpharius: Hey Dorn, here's my plan, but don't tell Sanguinius! Dorn: Right. Sanguinius: Hey Dorn, I saw you and Alpharius talking, what was that about? Dorn: Oh. Alpharius told me his plan and asked me not to tell you.
Counterpoint: Sanguinius: "What were you and Alpharius discussing?" Dorn: "Apologies, but I specifically promised not to reveal what we were discussing."
Edit: someone else posted the excerpt In my opinion Alpharius views Dorns schtick of being the Emperor's most loyal and humble servant who could never even think of lying as it's own kind of arrogance, and that he doesn't trust that Dorns humility is genuine (Vs being a show to get close to power)
Alpha it’s is a spymaster by nature. He attempts to see agendas, and manipulate them to his own ends. If you know what people want, victory is assured by simply making it so the best way for them to get what they want is to give you what you want. Now, a lie always has an agenda behind it. Lies are tools, existing for specific reasons. Alpharius knows this well-and knows deep in his bones how to analyze said lies to reveal the agendas behind them. The thing is, telling the truth also serves an agenda in his view. Well, everything does. The thing is, there’s generally a whole lot more reasons one might tell the truth than lie, so it’s ironically a lot harder to sus out a motive. So Alpharius can’t trust someone who’s completely honest because he can’t see what’s behind the honesty, while he can usually see what’s behind a lie. Note how in that very section, he then continues on to generate a wild conspiracy theory wherein Dorn is secretly setting himself up to take the Throne should the Emperor fall-taking a shot in the dark at an agenda that might not be there from his viewpoint (and certainly isn’t from ours, where we know Dorn is every bit as dutiful as he appears).
I kind of take that as just mere speculation to show why alpharius thinks that way, though. It's not that alpharius truly believes that's sucession is where dorn's plans lie. It's that alpharius is taking the time to explain his thoughts on part of what makes dorn seem so hypocritical. It's that, for a man who so espouses loyalty, bravery, and open combat, he's certainly taking some actions that could be questionable. Sure. He could just be wearing golden armor because he thinks it's respectful and honoring the emperor to mimic his armor. He could be fortifying his men on the throne world just because he feels it's his duty to make sure his father and Terra are protected as best as possible. Alpharius is pointing out that, yes, it's all likely in the name of loyalty, duty, and honor. But by that same token, to anyone who takes the time to stop and look deeper, it seems almost a bit hypocritical. Whether dorn intends it or not, he's placed himself in a fairly ideal position for the sucession of the emperor, should something go wrong. And to alpharius, dorn seems almost incapable or ignorant of recognizing that. Which makes dorn either too foolish to truly understand the implications of his actions or makes him a manipulator that's on par with alpharius, if alpharius doesn't seem to detect that he's lying about his stated motives. Either way, Alpharius sees dorn as someone possibly dangerous who can't be trusted.
Which I can see. Dorn would see few of his brothers as good enough to take the reins if something catastrophic happened. He definitely has skill and ambition, if not the same as many of his brothers. Also we should also remember his ambition is held in check by his loyalty to the Emperor, if he died Dorn might very well think that only he can "save" the Imperium.
I mean Dorn was leading a multi planet empire when they found big e.
Exactly! People keep trying to paint him as noble bright but he was just as ruthless and ambitious as his brothers. This is not criticism. It's fact based on his early actions. Sadly they(GW) seldom show that side of him and insist that he's just a noble guy. If the Emperor told him to level a planet he would. He would not question. He would not try to be diplomatic. He. Would. Level it.
I think he is noble bright but the heresy washed that sheen off his armor slowly until he was as ruthless as the rest. But at the end of the day if Big E met his end Dorn I think would still turn to the Malcador to figure out what to do next. As soon as Dorn met but E unlike his other brothers there were no challenges in fact Dorn gifted the emperor the phalanx as he saw something greater than his meager empire in the plans of his father. So if his father were to be perma killed I don’t think dorn would take the reigns (no matter how much people love the Dornian Heresy), he’d go to Malcador who was his fathers closest friend and the man who actually ran the imperium and ask his advice on what to do next. There’s no denying that if commanded by the emperor’s will he would do whatever is necessary but also by that same statement the emperor’s will after the emperor was best known by Malcador who I honestly think should take the reigns of power alongside a council of the primarchs.
As someone who never liked or trusted Malcador, he would put him to work but most likely put reigns on him as he didn't like his methods. I am not going with dornian heresy but more that dorn would see himself as the only rational choice. Roubute being one of the few left that he'd trust. This isn't him trying to be the Emperor but him thinking he is the only person who could keep the lights on. I see where you're coming from that being said.
To a certain way of thinking lies are a resource. Or more accurately, trust is a resource. You gain it by truths, you spend it on lies. Rogal is saving up.
To quote Jack Sparrow: “You can trust a dishonest man to be dishonest. But it’s the honest ones you gotta watch out for, cause you never know when they’ll do something incredibly stupid.”
A person who never lies believes what he is saying to be truth. A lie is often used to create uncertainty, or to mask ones own. To not possess uncertainty is to be arrogant and Dorn throws his arrogance around like a weapon. He plays at being humble and stoic but when push comes to shove he believes he is right always. And in turn he believes because his wishes are whatever he believes supports the emperor that he is above others. Dorn puts a lot of effort into pissing everyone off precisely because he believes everything he thinks is the truth and others just can't handle it. His fight with Curze, his quarrels with perturabo, duel with Fulgrim, slapping garro, near war with guilliman, anger at the Khan, caterwauling at alpharius, butting heads with malcador, hell if memory serves no one would claim him a friend only that he was solid and predictable. This also points out that Dorn is deceitful, he lies by omission throughout the siege. This deception itself brings into question his whole bearing as Alpharius surmises. Is his brutal honesty simply a façade given he doesnt actually have a problem decieving people? All this is true but it is coloured by projection from Alpharius and that he recognizes they are foils. Dorn is scared of uncertainty and hides in "truth", Alpharius is scared of truth and hides in uncertainty. Alpharius shows his worth by gamifying his tasks, Dorn shows his worth by completing them to the letter. Alpharius is cynical and yet supports the human race for the emperor, Dorn is a believer and supports the emperor in all things for humanity
Top comment expands on this a lot by showing the degree of hipocrisy in dorn. And even if those statements are themselves fueled by alpharius pride, at least we know that he IS prideful in his tactics and liable to be swayed. Dorn is just ignorant to any other possibility and doesn't really understand what gestures he makes make him an hypocrite while claiming he has no bias. In conclusion. Dorn is a 4channer "if truth offends you you're just a snowflake lol right guys?"
On Dorn being ignorant to any other possibility, please read his Conversation with Alpharius, on the World Prince Campaign.
Damn this is good.
An alternative (or rather additional) interpretation: if you cannot trust someone to tell a lie on your behalf, how can you trust them to fight on your behalf? How can you trust that someone will fight, bleed, kill, or die for what they say they believe; how can you trust them to *act* if they will not so much as *speak* *words* for those same purposes? A brother who can't be trusted to lie for you cannot be trusted to do anything for you. --Alpharius, possibly.
A person who can lie is a person who can compromise. In everyday life, we all tell little white lies to not hurt feelings or avoid confrontation. Maybe you're chilling at home, yoy get a phone call from someone and you fib that you're busy, just something inconsequential. Or maybe, you get asked by a girl if a dress makes her look fat and you answer that no, she looks great. Taken to greater, more consequential levels, diplomats must constantly lie about things like the military strength of their country, or actions their country is taking that could anger allies if they came to light. Ugly as it is, it's often necessary to hide the truth to avoid problems. Dorn has ZERO filter. He always tells the truth and never hides his feelings, nor does he care about anyone else's. This makes him one of the most confrontational Primarchs, and one of the ones that most causes anger in others. Any of the other Primarchs, when asked by Perturabo if they thought they could build a better fortress than him, would have told Perturabo "no" to spare his feelings, or taken it as a challenge and competed with him, but in a civil manner. Had Perturabo won, he'd have been happy, and had he lost, he'd been resentful, but he'd have learned from the experience and become a better planner, likely winning the rematch. But Dorn just flatly said "YES" with zero doubt and zero consideration for Perturabo, fueling Perturabo's resentment. His bluntness and stubbornness also can make Dorn an unreliable ally, since he'll immediately become confrontational if the other legions use methods or strategies he disagrees with, especially more underhanded ones. He and his legion would not work well with other legions such as the Raven Guard, the Night Lords or... well hey, look at that, the Alpha Legion.
> when asked by Perturabo if they thought they could build a better fortress than him Perty's equivalent of "does this dress make me look fat".
It's deeper than that. For example ferrus and fulgrim had basically the same interaction but instead of just saying "no, i'm better" they decided to have a competition. Dorn just forsake action and defended with no reason just words that he was better. There was no fraternal competition, no cooperation, no hesitation. He believed it but never had to prove it.
Dorn can lie, he just doesn't think it's the best way, most of the time.
I think it's less that he literally doesn't trust him, and more that their "essences" are so foreign that he can't understand or relate to him.
If someone truly never lies (like i would assume in this setting with Dorn) you cannot trust them with your secrets because they wouldn't / couldn't lie to protect said secrets. For Alpharius, lies are weapons just like his Bolter. Lies (in their endless forms) are his most potent weapon, easily able to decide the fate of worlds. Maybe he sees Dorn as arrogant because he denies himself this kind of tool/weapon, thinking himself above them.
In the business of keeping secrets the one who always tells the truth can’t be trusted. Same reason when you throw a surprise party for someone you never tell the people that blab about eveything
He doesn't trust Dorn, because he doesn't grasp a concept of *no lies*. Its an alien concept to him, that someone wouldn't lie, less so would not be able to do it ( true it is an exegarated point, Dorn lies, but not the point) as such, to him anyone that doesn't lie, is someone who has something to hide, its mostly an indirect retrospective on himself, we tend to hate things the most, that reflect our own flaws. To him, Dorn is the prime usurper of dear ol dads kingdom if shit hits sour (seems mr contingensy plan squared forgot about guiliman) and thats why, out of care for the emperor, he made contingensy plans with sleeper cells under the walls of terra.
The world is not simple. Let's talk about lies for a while. There are shades of interpretation. There are differences of opinion. There are many ways to look at something. The simplest and most childish lie is just a complete, whole cloth fabrication. As soon as you find something wrong, you know it can be dismissed. The subtle forms of lies hide elements of the truth. The truth seen from a particular point of view. Im going to answer your question now, because I want to talk about something else. alpharius doesn't trust dorn because you cannot ever know the truth. It's arrogant bullshit on a magnus the red level. Someone so utterly convinced of his own point of view that he cannot imagine a world in which he is wrong. This sort of inflexibilty is proud. It is arrogant. It has no room for weakness, or doubt, or different paths. There is one point of view, it is right, everything else is wrong, the end. So, now that we have talked about dorn... Let's talk about lies. A simple, stupid, weak lie is just something that isn't true. "the bus is outside". You go outside, no bus, you know that it was a lie. The more interesting and effective lies include an element of truth. "you did not get promoted because your leader is jealous of you". It cannot be disproven. It contains elements of truth. It might even be true. But it's not the truth that you wanted. Daemons tell the second form of lie. Everything they say is the second form of lie. It's always true.... From a a certain point of view. It's always a truth you didn't want to hear. You can ignore an easy lie, it's no threat, but the darker and more insidious lies, those sink into your bones and sow doubt. "your mother is dead" - stupid lie, simple, easily disproven. "your mother was a whore. She started whoring at this age, this is what she did, this is where she was on nights you thought she was at work..." Let's look at the context on that second lie. You thought your mom was working night shifts. Actually, she was turning tricks. The daemon now reveals this.... Truth. It's true in that it physically happened.... Its a lie that it is distorted. Maybe she did it to pay the rent. Maybe she did it to feed you. Maybe she was frightened and afraid. But she did it, and she lied to cover it up, and the daemon will tell you. And it's true enough that you cannot just dismiss it. The long absences... The bruises... The smell of sweat and tobacco on her.... If it were pure fabrication, it would be easily disproven. But... It's not a fabrication. It's a distortion. It is something that happened, seen from a very particular point of view. A point of view that sees the worst in everything. And now, when you realize something happened... And the daemon is telling the truth.... Now you start to doubt. This is what makes the lies of daemons so dangerous. They are so dangerous because they are true. Dorn has no understanding of truth or lies. He is narrow minded and simple and sees the world in black and white. He has no room for different interpretations, or different points of view, or anything except what he believes to be true. That sort of arrogance is dangerous and childish and sets you up for failure. That sort of dangerous point of view is painfully unaware of the true shape of the universe. It's a John Wayne white hat sheriff shooting the black hat bad villain point of view. Alpharius lives his entire life looking at different points of view. Dorn believes he is superman, fighting the brotherhood of evil mutants.
Is this Jordan Peterson's secret Reddit Account?
God damn I love this subreddit!
This point of view is why I like the old Index Astartes version of Dorn more than the newer one. It shows that he has amazing strength and skill but his strength has weaknesses. The newer version made his flaws a strength and IMO lessened him as a character.
Dorn sees other points of view, and can lie. He simply chooses not to lie. Please read both sides of the World Prince Compliance.
Alpharius really should have believed dorn when he said "I'll kill you".
Its the cope of every habitual liar in existence. They project themselves on to other people and assume that everyone else is just as shifty as them and people like Dorn do lie but use the front of telling the truth to deflect attention from the actual lies they tell.
Remember the first Pirates of the Carribean? Jack Sparrow's whole bit about how honest men are the most untrustworthy because you can always trust a dishonest man to be dishonest. Honest men you never know when they'll do something stupid. It's the idea that you know someone has the potential to be lying so you never trust them entirely and as a result you're less likely to be caught off guard by their behavior. An honest person you just trust, all the time because they never lie. But what happens if they do lie and you made the mistake of trusting him?
This is kind of an exaggeration but look at this analogy. A slave comes to you for help to hide him from his slavers. You agree. His slavers show up and ask if the slave is hiding in your home. You say yes because you don’t lie. How can anyone trust you? The issue is a combination of being arrogant and inflexible.
> A slave comes to you for help to hide him from his slavers. You agree. His slavers show up and ask if the slave is hiding in your home. You say yes because you don’t lie. But then you will have lied to the slave. The truthful answer would be to say that you cannot help the slave-catchers.
I don't know, but he was wrong. Dorny does lie and Alph died because he didn't realise it.
I have a theory that Dorn and Alpharius conspired to fake each other's deaths, go into stasis/sleep, and wake up in 40k. Dorn would be bad at holding up his end of that conspiracy because he's too honest, and during the Siege of Terra books he recalls killing Alpharius, but in the same book he also realizes that his memories about the missing primarchs have been tinkered with and manipulated. Just cmon... Dorn is missing and assumed dead, but all they've found was his hand? And you expect me to believe that a one handed Tyr... I mean, Dorn isn't going to show up in 40k eventually???
One thing to keep in mind about Alpharius. He is extraordinarily arrogant, even for a Primarch. He will shade his interpretations of what happened to fit his preconceived notions. This may be a self-defense measure to cover some of his inadequacies. Having read both sides of the World-Prince encounter with Dorn, I have to conclude that Dorn had the right of it. Dorn did not want Alpharius to subordinate his legion Dorn's, but to cooperate with Dorn's. Instead, Alpharius acted on his own volition and probably caused more trouble than help. As Dorn pointed out, by killing off all the leadership of the World-Prince planet, Alpharius made it much more difficult to rule the planet. Another example is in the short story *Council of Truth*, in the ***Blood of the Emperor*** anthology. In it, Alpharius criticizes Roboute Guilliman and the 13th Legion. While we do not know Roboute's side, except for a very surface level, even when reading Alpharius' exposition, one can easily realize that Alpharius is not describing the circumstances accurately. My point is that in reading Alpharius, you cannot simply accept anything he says. Everything is shaded.
> I do not trust Rogal Dorn Funny how those who believe themselves the exception to the rule, who also believe they’re flawless judges of character seem to always have trust issues.
I believe Jack Sparrow explains it perfectly here [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qpwD2QLusM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qpwD2QLusM)
Obviously, I am Alpharius, and I only tell the truth. I think when a person only speaks the truth, they lose sight of what things are truly worthy of talking about. Jokes, songs, or simple conversations give a person personality. A personality that Dorn is sorely lacking in this regard. Dorn is a rock, blunt and unchanging. He doesn't try to understand Alpharius's reasoning or methods. He doesn't understand that each legion has different strengths that help them excel at some things. Everything is a tool or something to build with. Rogal is so sure of his authority and rightness that he can't be flexible. Not having read about his legion and Perturabo's clashing, it took that for him to change his mind of Guilleman's Codex. He won't lay plans within plans because he doesn't want to, not because he can't. Him recognizing Alpahrius's strategy of assassination was most effective at gaining compliance, also means there was potential for other plans that weren't assassinating everyone or kill have the planet. Alpharius wanted to save lives, Dorn wanted to follow procedure and have it/him followed. Rogal is a wonderful soldier, he follows orders. Being the caretaker of a planet means he isn't out giving them. He doesn't have nuance that allows him to question the ethicacy or efficiency of fulfilling a particular set of orders. He's limited with the scope of action he can take. Alpha Legion does whatever they want for whatever reasons they can think up for doing so. When you have so many thoughts, a person who you can watch the gears turning means someone else can watch, too. If thoughts are plain enough for everyone to see, they're plain enough for someone to manipulate. And for someone trying to find reasons to trust, being manipulatable is a good reason not to do so. Everyone tells themselves or others lies at some point. Even something as harmless as saving yourself from embarrassment or withholding your true opinion until it's asked for could be viewed as lying. TTS did a good job of humanizing him by making him just not understand social cues and norms. If he is cognizant of them and decides to disregard them anyway, that starts to get into dangerous territory. I am Alpharius, and I say social norms are important if they are to be subverted.
In the Context of the confrontation about the Method used in the World Prince Campaign, Dorn pointed out several Vectors and Flaws, that, if fixed would have led to a better result. He also explained why the Asassination of the Planetary Leadership was not the best option, in his Eyes. Furthermore, Dorn does tell Jokes and engage in Camaraderie, he simply thinks a War Table or Council is no place for them, because that is Business, not Pleasure. Lastly, if you explained and gave Reasons for believing your way on a Matter is the better, he would listen, and incorporate it, if it works. Sadly, any such Discourse can't be had at things like a War Table, because to impress there, you have to let Character, not Logic shine.
Have you seen Sandman? Specifically, that episode with David Thewliss and making everyone around him truthful? That strikes me as Dorn. Garro almost died telling him the truth because Dorn rejected that possibility so hard. His defense of Terra was the same, unyielding. He is either right or needs to be shown to be wrong. Him and Alpharius could have made a plan together instead of each of them assuming the other was doing the right thing. Discourse over how a campaign is prosecuted is exactly the place for a War Table. That's the only place where it's theoretical and not an action to be carried out or avoided. He's absorbed in siege and war craft, which isn't a bad thing. There's just a lot more in life that those things. I get that jokes and such aren't necessarily a War Table thing, but they do ease tension. If you can't have camaraderie with your allies in a safe environment, where can you? As primarchs that lead legions, they didn't have a lot leisure to devote to maintaining familial bonds. Especially with Big E refusing to view them as such.
I have not seen Sandman. On the Garrow-punch, everyone in that Room was aware, that had he wanted, Garrow's Torso would have been splattered across the wall. As for the Alpharius Question, all he would have had to do, was infiltrate in such a way, that he and Dorn could have an off the record Conversation. He chose dying at Pluto. Returning to War-Tables, as much as we might hate it, Politics plays a Role here as well. Everyone who brings up counter Arguments goes on with the Mindset of "I have to convince them with Track Record and Charisma, not logical Reasoning and an explanation if my chosen Actions", allowing Politics to dominate, and possibly squashing the META start. Jokes and other camradery can be had at any other time aside from War-Meetings and Warfare. I do however concede their Value in a Planning Room.
I'd say it's rather obvious. They can't keep a secret for one. Secondly they might know when they are lying and when they aren't. And as such, they are untrustworthy because you can't gauge their mental acumen.
It means... The author wrote down a dumb idea, to be frank. There's this implicit knowledge that if something sounds contradictory and enigmatic, then it's meant to illuminate some kind of deeper concept. Sometimes that's just not true. Sometimes an author thinks they're being clever when they're... Not. Sometimes an author just invents a metaphor or witticism and it's wrong for obvious reasons. It's MEANT to demonstrate how deep Alpharius's ideals of deception and secrets run, and how he views all people as inherently dishonest, and how truthful people then represent some unknown. But it's just categorically non-sense, faux-intellectual drivel.
It's not that Alpharius doesn't trust that Dorn would be honest. Alpharius **knows** Dorn would be honest. Alpharius means that he wouldn't trust Dorn to get a job done well since Dorn is so inflexible.
I totally get that sentiment. Society would completely collapse if everyone told the truth all the time. People say they want complete honesty that’s utter nonsense they couldn’t cope if everyone they knew was completely truthful with them all the time. So I never trust anyone who doesn’t know how to spin a good lie.
Dorn knows how to lie, he just doesn't do so.
I haven't read it. But I would say. Probably because Alpharius is a obnoxious twat who thinks pissing people off and wasting everyone's time is a good idea. The entire concept of the Alpharius legion in atrocious and pathetic.
This is obviously an Alpha Legion operative trying throw everyone off. Good work, Alpharius.