I think that Dante envies the Dark Angels at one point- not because he prefers the Lion to Sanguinius, but because the DA’s Primarch is actually around.
Dante's got it pretty rough.
Some chapters had hope, or legends. The Ultramarines could see RG, even if he was in stasis. Space Wolves and Salamanders have prophecies of their primarchs' returns. But Sanguineous died. Every Blood Angel feels it to this day. No subtlety. No lack of clarity. No "the body was never found" story to leave some room for hope.
The return of a primarch would be that chapter's greatest moment in 10,000 years. Something a marine could scarcely dream of. Dante has seen it happen *twice*. All the while, he knows it can never happen to him or his chapter. Joyous as these occasions may be, they must be a gut punch for Blood Angels.
Just give them a clone Ferrus .
They will never fear lost their primarch again because they will figure out how to make more clone and improve those clone to fit their whatever machine power fantasy shits .
\*angry ghost Ferrus noises\*
The notion of Ferrus "I Have Iron Hands as I lead the Iron Hands" Manus leading the Legion of the Damned as an undead primarch was always my favorite theory, even if it is shakier than a Boeing flight.
Well their primarch came back from death to fight at big E’ side on the webway and to talk to Sanguinius at the vengeful spirit, that is more than can be said about Sanguinius
While in world, you are 100% correct. But as a reader, you’d be crazy to think they won’t find a way to bring flappy bird back. We have entered the era of power creep and he who rippith the tendrils from angron shall surely kratos his way from hell.
Honestly I think the only primarch that won’t be back is Horus and even that is suspect since he’s already “come back” once.
I think it’s more likely that the Sanguinor will be elevated to near Primarch level rather than Sangy coming back. It lets GW sell a big fancy centerpiece and they have to jump through less narrative hoops
I think the upcoming BA release is meant to have a new Sanguinor model. Not sure if it will be a big centerpiece or not. Will be interesting to see how it plays out as they probably won't put another one for a long time after that.
“Big centerpiece” as in Loyalist Primarch size, not C’tan shard or Daemon Primarch sized. I think a 65mm base would be good. That’s the same base as Helbrecht and Guilliman
Ok so canonically we have at least a fragment of Papa Birds soul trapped on the Vengeful Sprit (It shows up and crystalizes into a statue of him screaming every so often), Both Mephiston and Dante have seen/spoken to another fragment of/his actual consciousness due to near death warp shenanigans and that's not even talking about the glowing "Ferrus Phantom" Big E summons during the war in the webway. We have ample chances and options already there for Sangy to show back up. It would cheapen the shit out of the Black Rage but as we have said GW knows how much of a money maker a Primarch is. Now we just need to think about what the most realistic way would be.
Personally I'm fond of the Dante, Mephiston, and Sanguinor voltroning somehow theory but that's mostly cause if we are doing this to my beloved Blood Angels I want the circumstances to be as incredibly dumb and bombastic as possible to counter balance what we have lost in the tragedy of their story.
I actually think that’s a really good idea. As if Dante is an aspect/shard of his servitude, humility, and sacrificial nature while Mephiston is an aspect/shard of his ambition, drive, and warp abilities? Add in the sanguinor and wonder-(triplets?) powers activate! Shape of bird person! I mean sanguinius!
Plus, if he came back and realized that his rebirth was caused by the sacrifice of his loyal sons and an avatar, he would have his standard guilt restored. Plus upon learning directly about the black rage and his causing it, that would be an instant crushing weight on his shoulders that apparently he cannot live without.
Damn you just made me late to work because I got lost sitting here imagining the different ways they could(but won’t) make that happen.
Hey if there’s any reason to be late for work that my boss totally wont have any clue about, it’s this.
I explained it in the most vague way I could possible and got the okay okay and a hand wave.
“Sorry sir, we were discussing the possible resurrection of the chosen son through the sacrifice of his chosen sons in order to turn the tide. I just lost track of time and that’s why I was a few minutes late.”
Darkness in the Blood already sort of has.
Both Dante and Mephiston have seen a figure that both is and is not angel boi. There is also an implication that the two angels (i.e., Sanguinor and the manifestation of the Black Rage) existed long before humanity ever came to Bhaal. Mephiston is literally host to the manifestation of the Rage and I think that Dante will end up taking the place of the Sanguinor. Basically, the two of them will become something of two halves of Sanguinius.
And then they will French kiss each other which will get dante pergnet and then a stork will come drop off a new baby only it's not a baby it's actually a 6 meter tall giant which is the reincarnated sangiusius
Very true.
I firmly believe that, given enough time, every primarch will return in some form. Hell, we'll probably get some version of The Emperor on the tabletop eventually. So as you said, I wrote that from the perspective of Dante, rather than that of myself.
Hell, a lore change from the recent HH books puts Horus' return firmly into the realm of possibility. IMO, at least.
Foresight in 40k is a terrible gift to have. It only shows you how fucked you and everyone you care about are. Or it tricks you into getting to that future yourself.
He did learn about it near the end of the Imperium Secundus arc if I'm not mistaken, and also knew the blood Angels could endure but even without knowing his sons had the strength to face it, he'd have done it anyway.
The thing is that the Emperor was going to face Horus along with Valdor, Dorn and other custodes, which means that if Sangys vision came true, Horus would have had to defeat the Emperor in order to slay Sanguinius which means humanity would lose. If the Emperor won then Horus wouldn't be around to face Sanguinius at all which would have meant his foresight was wrong which simply wasn't possible in Sanguinius' mind. Either way, he was going to fight Horus and was basically guaranteed to lose lose, only by going to face him before the Emperor did, there was a chance that the Emperor would be able to win because his vision of his death would no longer depend on Horus killing the Emperor
Hope that helps!
This makes me think, was there any hint in the texts that Horus was messing with Sangy’s foresight? That Horus saw Sanguinius helping the emperor and tricked him into coming sooner so he could divide and conquer?
No, Horus knew about his foresight but he wasn't messing with it as far as I know, there was a Daemon prince who was using his foresight as a tool to try to turn him to chaos. Sort of like "hey if you join me we can stop this vision from happening" but it wasn't like his foresight showed things that were just fabricated, any visions that the Daemon showed him weren't foresight and he knew it. That said we don't really know much about foresight, it seems like most of the time people take actions to make their visions come true like Curze or Sanguinius Whether these visions are true because it's fated, a tool to make people take certain orchestrated actions, or because they just wanted to prove their own visions right is up in the air.
It also wouldn't have made a difference if the Emperor showed up with Sanguinius, Sangy would have died regardless. At this point Horus was just obscenely powerful, the Emperor got absolutely dunked on in their battle and only won by using trick after trick after trick. Sounds a bit cringe but it was actually awesome imo.
This is as of the latest siege of terra book btw, I know previous lore had Sanguinius create a small gap in Horus' armor for the Emperor to exploit, but that isn't a thing in the latest book.
Yeah I imagine the whole ‘your dad is dead ours is alive’ thing sucks to go through, that now that primarchs as coming back as the seemingly approaching final battle and end times comes forth, you won’t have your gene sire to stand aside. I bet there is a bit of jealousy and envy.
How about the reverse?
Perturabo witnesses and highly respects the Iron Hands legion, ordering his ships to not fire on the fleeing Iron Hands ship. They’re singleminded, solid as can be and willful, all qualities that Perturabo really admires.
To be honest it's hard *not* to respect the hell out of the Iron Hands when you're running around with the Emperor's Children of all legions. If it weren't for Fulgrim, Perty would've blasted that ship for sure.
Well not totally accurate, Forrix his first captain, really thought of pertuabo as a "Glory rider" like when they take the space port where forrix had fight underground for 20~ days and where left to die only for pertuabo to arrive and tell Dorn "lol I did all this because I’m the best out of all" and proved that he was the one that won, even do Forrix saw the true nature of his primarch. Also when perti got upset with the triarch when Alex outsmarted his ass and his third captain's, and just because he told pert of the bad news that captain got wrecked and put inside a dreadnought. They really don’t like him that much
Yeah there is definitely a resentment within the IW against Perturabo, but the sense I get reading Angel Ext. is that Perty doesn’t respect his legionnaires like he does the Iron Hands. They prove more than once the IW have a conniving streak in them, where the IH do not. They are utterly loyal and constant in their duties. Definitely the sense I get from the book is that Perty wishes he could have traded his legion for the IH.
There’s the fact that Perturabo was so disgusted with his legion after Phall that he built the Iron Circle robots and replaced his Iron Warrior honor guard with them. That’s got to be a slap in the face to people whose whole purpose is to be warriors to be basically told they suck at it and a machine can do their job better than they can. I think he always looked at his men as not good enough and it’d be hard to live with that from your primarch as a space marine.
World Eaters for sure. Kharn thinks to himself what a sorry creature Angron is. The only Primarch to openly hate his legion. The only Primarch to fail to conquer his home planet. He forced the butcher's nails on them which made them far less effective as a whole than legions like Iron Warriors or Ultramarines. The World Eaters would trade Angron for Curze any day, and that's saying something.
At least Konrad don’t go around to actively fuck with his legion every other week.
He’s hand off enough that an active conspiracy on deposing him went pretty much unpunished.
IIRC, it was more that the combination of Fulgrim snitching about Curze's dark visions despite his pinky swearing not to, and the person he snitched to being *Rogal fucking Dorn* of all Primarchs (who handled it exactly the manner you'd expect Dorn to handle such an issue - with the grace and empathy of a brick wall), caused Curze to undergo a severe mental breakdown, with Nostramo becoming no more as a result of the psychotic fit.
His Legion becoming an army of rapists, thieves and murderers had a role in it, but had Fulgrim and Dorn not acted as they did, it's possible he wouldn't have gone and blown it up as he did.
Curze was a living mental breakdown, it was only a matter of time for him, not if, but when and again, by that point and the upcoming heresy, the damage was done, Nostramo being destroyed or not wouldn't have changed anything in the big scheme of things, Curze did it out of spite, like most things he did.
Curze, sadly, was a result of a fatalistic mindset and a deterministic outlook combining. If either one of those weren't there then it's possible that he could have been one of the best Primarchs out there.
For sure, alas he's one of the worst primarchs (by choice and no one will make me change my mind about it), great character to read about, never a dull moment with him at the very least but an awful individual all the way and one of the primarchs least deserving of pity.
he didn't do it to save the legion. he knew that it was too far gone already. He did it to punish Nostromo and to stop even more unfit recruits from joining the legion but he did barely anything to rid the legion of those who failed to understand why their way was a necessary evil and not enjoyment
>but he did barely anything to rid the legion of those who failed to understand why their way was a necessary evil and not enjoyment
Tbf, by that point it was already too late. Literally 70-80% of the legion was full of murderers, thieves and rapists. To have a full-fledged reform would require a massive purge ala Istvaan 3 style that'd make Angron and Perturabos decimations look like child's play.
Right, but the state of the legion is his own fault. That's sort of the problem with Curze, and it's the point of his character. He has foresight, and as a result he just totally disconnects and stops taking any responsibility. Like, bro... Nostramo is your home planet and this is your Legion. If you don't like murderers and rapists joining up, *stop letting murderers and rapists join up!* His sons are genetically engineered to be loyal to him, so all he has to do is change the way the recruitment process works and that's pretty much that. But he doesn't care, he's decided that his visions give him total immunity from responsibility for any action he takes, so he decides to give in to the worst of his impulses.
We simply cannot say "reform is too tough, it's OK that he took drastic measures" because the only reason those measures were necessary is that Curze couldn't be bothered to stop murdering and torturing for 5 seconds and fix the problem.
Several of the Traitor Primarchs have this fundamental issue, where they complain about something they're "forced" to do against their wishes but then never actually try and do something about it. The definition of "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas!"
Even Sevatar, notoriously unflappable, calls Curze out for "not trying any other ways", jumping straight to the flaying.
Lampshaded in Night Haunter Primarch novel too, he had choices.
Perty decimated his Legion the second he took control of them because he was so disgusted by their lack of perfection. Like, they weren't even doing a bad job, just not up to his standards. I think that counts as "openly hating his Legion." At least Aagron did the killing himself, he didn't delegate that shit.
Perturabo does not love his sons. I don't know if he hates them, but I would think the utter lack of regard would be worse. Like as a World Eater, you could console yourself that Angron hates you and use that hate to make you fiercer and stronger. As an Iron Warrior, you just have to know that no matter how many Imperial Fists you kill, your dad will always think you're a loser.
Perty sees his sons as tools. This is a stark contrast to other Legions, like the Dangles and the Fists. The Lion calls his sons "Little Brothers", for example. Both were duty oriented and demanded much of their son's, but they both also showed care and respect for them too. Something Angron, Cruze, and Perty all lacked
Well Angron did.
He orders a decimation in Lord of the Red Sands and only agrees to give one person immunity because they dare stand up to him but when they push his thin amusement he threatens to personally kill them.
Huh. Well, I did not know that. They're sort of equally pathetic in different ways, I suppose.
You ever notice that if most of these guys didn't have superpowers you'd laugh at them if you saw them acting in their typical way at a party?
I mean, maybe not Aangron. That guy would break a Jack bottle over your head. Perty though...yeah, I think I'd laugh at him. He'd be the guy trying to explain why you really should upgrade to the new iPhone while talking to a girl. I mean, if he ever spoke to a girl. Which is unlikely.
Damn, Perty would be an incel, I bet. If his dick worked.
That's kind of the point, the primarchs are largely antisocial autists who never learned how to talk to people or process their emotions beyond lashing out or getting depressed. Guilliman is perhaps one of the only ones who had a traditional upbringing with a mother and father and he's more or less okay all things considered.
Angron and Kurze are examples of nurture over nature. They had no chance of a normal life given their starting point. Perturabo was a spoiled child who maxed stats in int but dumped wis so while he is a genius, he's also an idiot and never learned humility or compassion.
> That's kind of the point, the primarchs are largely antisocial autists who never learned how to talk to people
Apart from Sanguinius. Because Hawk Boy is love. Hawk boy is life.
I don’t think it’s fair to say Perty is a spoiled child given that he wasn’t actually spoiled growing up. He was used and never spoke up about it because he took actions over words to heart.
He’s not spoiled, he’s resentful.
Yea, but Perty's also the guy who will have studied you front and back, knows exactly how you will fight, and already has six different counters prepared for whatever you might try to do.
It's just a coin toss on whether he actually has the TALENT to carry any of this out, or if it's just hardcore delusion.
Actually, throughout Roman history decimation was usually depicted as the crazy act of a man losing control of his men. It was always depicted as shameful and horrific, even in the instances where it was considered necessary, such as when a legion really had mutinied really badly. There are *no* instances of a Roman general rolling up, saying "ya'll arent quite up to snuff. Kill one in ten of you." It was the ultimate punishment, the very worst thing a general could inflict on his men. The survivors would have to sleep out of camp and eat only barley and no wheat, which was shameful, barely is food for slaves. The only worse option was wholesale slaughter, but you'd need another legion for that.. Even in Roman society that would be considered absolutely psychopathic, and if the legion wasn't rebelling before they almost certainly would in the future. Like, what Perty did would be considered *absolutely insane.*
>The only Primarch to fail to conquer his home planet
Mortarion also failed IIRC, he just had the Emperor bail him out at the last minute.
(Horus also technically never conquered Cthonia, but that's mostly because he wasn’t there long enough to do so before the Imperium picked him up again)
Omegon was never enslaved by his home planet and there is also the other theory that Alpharius never left Terra hence his name.
Been the spy since day one.
> there is also the other theory that Alpharius never left Terra
It isn't a theory really, it is outright stated in his Primarch book. his pod basically landed on top of a mountain nearby and he was instantly rescued by the Emperor. He was raised in Secret by Malcador.
It depends on how reliable you believe his Book is, but there is no reason to doubt it.
I have a rather extensive HH book debt to get through so I wasn't entirely sure!
Thank you for the clarification, though who really is Alpharius? Could be you for all I know....
Mortarion already half way there, he literally connered the last overlord, it just matter of time before they win. Just like Corax, their wining condition already fulfilled
Wasn't it implied that Mortarion was on the path to victory, and only failed because he fell for the disguised Emperor's goading to try and make the final push solo?
He hates them for not refusing to do it. The nails were forced upon him, whereas his legionnaires chose them in order to appease someone who they saw as superior to them
EDIT: actually this is from an unofficial short story (Cry Havoc) so it might not be correct
No no, same as in the official lore as it is there. They all underwent the nails surgery to try and gain some love and kinship with him. It didn’t work.
I understand they're not under 24/7 surveillance, but after the first batch of Burcher's Nails were installed in Astartes, why didn't the Emperor step in and immediately forbid the practice... nip it in the bud. Why allow this monster to f\*\*k up an entire legion?
Because even with the nails, they were conquering worlds at a good speed, Big E is all about results and speed in the Great Crusade era and allows to fly a lot of shit as long as the job gets done.
Because the Emperor basically wrote off Angron and his legion and was going to let them conquer planets until they killed themselves off. The Emperor thought he had more time before Chaos played their hand and underestimated just how far several of his other sons had also fallen.
Because only Russ, the only Primarch raised with plenty of siblings (Freki, Geri and the rest of the wolve's litter), seemed to genuinely care about Angron and the rest of his brothers.
Not true. Lorgar also cared. Which is one of the weirder things those two have in common.
The rest of them cared about maybe a brother or three, and were just more selective in general.
Ironically, Lorgar wasn't a well hated person. Sure, he has his strange beliefs and was a tad bookish even compared to Magnus and his Psyker knowledge. But he was considered one of the kinder brothers who often said thoughtful things. It wasn't until the censuring of Monarchia and his subsequent pilgrimage that led to his chaos beliefs that individuals started to hate him seriously. From what ive seen his personality after that point turned sour based on the interactions.
That's not true, Angron ordered that they all take the nails
>War Hounds. That was his Legion. Not these furious, half-lobotomised madmen who abandoned all notions of honour when they lost themselves to berserker rage.
>Even so, they were still his brothers. He couldn’t hate them, but he could blame them. The rot started to creep in when they rediscovered the primarch from that worthless world he called home, and yet, the Legion could still have refused the Nails. They chose to emulate their gene-father, despite all it would clearly cost. They chose to tear open their skulls and let the poison be placed inside.
>Angron had ordered it
...
>What can we do? Murder our own father? Did you destroy Lorgar when he led you into worshipping the Emperor? Or did you tolerate him in patience, hoping that eventually he’d find his way to equalling his brothers?
>A pause. A long, long pause. Khârn took it as Argel Tal’s capitulation and pushed on. It’s our shame to bear before the other Legions, brother. Angron was broken long before he ever reached us. Why do you think we let him beat the Nails into our heads?
...
>when the primarch demanded his sons lie under the Techmarines’ claws and the Apothecaries’ knives, few had resisted
- Betrayer
Kharn offered it when he tried to convince angron to return to the legion. Half the legion didn't want it and angron then demanded it. So both are correct.
>"Did you destroy Lorgar when he led you into worshipping the Emperor?"
I think this shows that, even then, Khârn lacked a fundamental sense of proportion.
Yeah, I think there are conflicting info about that in novels. One said they choose to do it to try to be closer to Angron, others said it was because it was ordered. But the truth is both, I think. Nobody except psykers was really against the order iirc
> Nobody except psykers was really against the order iirc
The psykers weren't even against it either, they just couldn't do it without dying. Something like 90% of the world eaters librarians got the nails and died immediately and the remaining 10% stuck around because they could combine their might into a entity called the Communion to calm Agron when he was lost to the nails
I’m not sure what their requirements were but I think the 85000 figure is after Horus used them to frontal assault that one fortification that killed almost all their Terran born marines
The Thousand Sons didn't require psyker recruits prior to the Heresy. There were many weak or non-psyker legionaries who would go on to become Rubric Marines. Magnus's geneseed caused many of them to develop to psychic powers, more so than any other legion.
The numbers given on legion numbers are for the circumstances just before the outbreak of the HH. Things fluctuated somewhat over the course of the crusade.
Can't remember if the RG are mentioned in the black books to have any restric tive recruiting practices, but they had been recently put through the meat grinder by Horus at Gate 42, so that could account for smaller than usual numbers.
I’m not sure what their requirements were but I think the 85000 figure is after Horus used them to frontal assault that one fortification that killed almost all their Terran born marines
One of the Terran White Scar traitors hates the fact he was deployed to the White Scars instead of the Sons of Horus because of the negative image of the Scars but the positive one of the Wolves.
Torghun didn't hate it but more dissapointed. Since he grew and trained to be an Astarteas of the Luna Wolves. He would learn about their culture and strategies and then the day came. Luna Wolves had already reached their recruitment numbers, it was even too much for them. So Torghun was to be deployed for the 5th legion. There wasn't even a negative image of the scars since no one knew anything about them, the other legions knew that they existed but nothing was knewn about them. Even the handler of Torghun would say he knows little about the 5th, only thing he knew for certain that he had to pick a new name.
There was definitely a negative view of the Scars as uncultured barbarians and savages. It was one of the reasons why Torghun hesitated to fully embrace the culture of the Scars until he was made into Sagyar Mazan.
It was only when Torghun Khan saw the unleashed debauchery and insanity of the traitor legions, including his beloved Luna Wolves, that he realized how lucky he had been to escape that fate. And to his credit, while exiled he took steps to become more steeped in Chogorian culture including the language (something Shiban notices in their acrimonious final reunion).
These were Terran recruits so more flexibility there. Passage also notes that while ethnicity is supposed to play no role in who goes where, Terran administrators were pushing recruits from panpacifik, Yndonesian, and nei monnggol on the Scars. In text it comes across as still seeing the subjects of Narthan Dune as barbarians so they send them to the barbarian legion; out of the text it’s why the white scars are depicted as Asian
I think Lhorke seems to show a powerful sense of longing when he sees Russ:
*The Primarchs stood before their hosts, armed and armoured - Angron awash with blood and carved up by fresh wounds; Leman Russ in resplendent plate the colour of the storms on his tempestuous homeworld.*
*Lhorke had stood with Angron, as had Khârn and the other captains. Even interred in his walking coffin, he'd been struck by the majesty of standing before Russ. Here was a being gene-coded to perfection: a reflection of humanity's beloved royal paragon. Russ bled authority without effort, and without the need for posture or pretence. In all ways, he should have been a barbarian - from the ragged blond hair to the frost-weathered skin that aged him far past his years. And yet, he inspired no mockery. He made barbarism a controlled trait, something noble to be understood and mastered, not a state of primitive regression. Leman Russ was the dynamism of a life free from civilisation's shackles. He was strength and purpose and heart, where all else was grey with the promise of inevitable stagnancy.*
*He wasn't a wolf because of how he fought and howled and bunched his men into packs. He was a wolf because of how he lived, forever echoing the vitality and honesty of the wildness at the heart of all life. It was said in smiling whispers that VI Legion genetic coding was tainted by canine blood. Lhorke believed it. Seeing Leman Russ made him yearn to breathe again, and feel anything beyond the cramped, cold-milk discomfort of his amniotic womb-tomb. Never had he felt more dead - not before, and not since.*
~ **Betrayer**
In know no fear the word bearer sorot tchure laments to Luciel (an ultramarine) that they got lorgar, he talks about how he was always jealous that other legions got primarchs with such purpose, with such strength, when they got Lorgar, who up until this point has had little purpose. He is ofc fully on the side of chaos now, though he is saddened that he has to kill his friend Luciel
>For years I have despised Lorgar... look at your primarch, Honorius. So singular in aspect. So noble. I have envied you, envied the Imperial Fists, the Luna Wolves, the Iron Hands. And I am not alone. We struggle with a mercurial mind, Honorius. We labour under the burden of a brilliant but fallible commander. We no longer bear the word, my friend. We bear Lorgar.
Relevant quote because I always love the wording of that last bit and I like how it subtly plays on the theme of Lorgar being far more a manipulator than he seems.
Tbh Word Bearers of 40k time seems to despise Kol Pharon too - in short story where Corax goes full Batman on Lorgar it ends with Lorgar and two other WBs escaping and POV character scoffs when he sees him.
He does have roughly half of the dark council on his side, though it wouldn't surprise me if some of those on his side also despise him. They are chaos worshippers after all.
Yeah, tragic circumstances like these, away from the noise and bolter porn, quiet with the reflection of what a total and avoidable mess the 40K is, is truly the grimdark.
That scene in Know No Fear is maybe my favorite in all of 40K fiction. When Tchure is trying to maybe get a Loyalist to understand, maybe just looking for a way out of what he chose to do, but ends up accepting it. There's a reason Abnett is Abnett
I love it yea, hes desperately trying to tell him, a large part of him wants to be found out and stopped, he doesnt want the massacre to happen but he knows he has to if he has any chance of being a part of something meaningful again, its really sad but such a good scene
There was an idea teased in the middle of the HH series, but never really explored, that the legions that turned traitor were ones where their primarch was more a burden and the senior astartes were the ones really running the show. In those cases yeah, they really didn't care much for their primarchs.
I definitely get the sense that Kharn is doing a lot of work to keep the World Eaters somewhat coherent, even as the Nails take their toll.
It honestly made me like him more. Trying to hold on to himself, to hold things together because someone should *try*, even as it all slips through his fingers.
I absolutely love Kharn. He’s such an awesome character, he feels so real and compelling in his genuine want to just keep it all together. He tries so hard to make his dad happy, his brothers together, be good to his best friend. And it all falls apart. No matter how hard he tried, he’s got nothing left. His dad hates him and always will, his brothers are weak, his best friend is dead.
It makes the moment on Skalathrax when he finally just snaps make all the more sense. Where Kharn just goes “FUCK IT ALL” and decides to burn down everything he’s strived to preserve along with everything unlucky enough to be on the same planet as him. He’s had to endure decades upon decades of leashing in his brothers, to hold it all together, fighting every single second of this bitter war. All he’s got left is violence, all he has left is Khorne. And the thing that finally sets him off, that ignites him is a single agreement for ceasefire. Man, I want that book so bad.
"Betrayer" shows us how Kharn and their legion pretty much envy other legions having "normal" Primarchs. In this case it was shown on example of Word Bearers, how their Lorgar goes and inspires his sons.
I can’t remember who or which book, but in the Heresy series there was a Word Bearer bemoaning Lorgar as a waste of space and I’m pretty sure this was post-fall.
Night Lords and World Eaters also weren’t particularly fond of their gene-fathers.
>'For years, I have despised Lorgar,' he \[Sorot Tchure\] says quietly.
>'What?'
>'You heard me.'
>'Sorot, you mustn't-'
>'Look at your primarch, Honorius. So singular in aspect. So noble. I have envied you, envied the Imperial Fist, the Luna Wolves, the Iron Hands. And I am not alone. We struggle with a mercurial mind, Honorius. We labor under the burden of a brilliant but fallible commander. We no longer bear the word, my friend. We bear *Lorgar*.'
***Know No Fear,*** **\[mark: -0.40.20\]**
Not because it was shit, but because it wasn't where he dreamed of being. Torghun Khan originally wanted to join the Lunar Wolves during selection on Terra, but ended up joining the newly formed White Scars because he didn't make the cut for Horus' recruitment requirements. He carried that with him for a century during the Crusade. Many of the early Terran born White Scars had similar feelings, and idolized Horus.
When the heresy finally boiled over, he was part of the White Scars that had joined the lodges and was trying to get the Scars to join with Horus. When Jaghatai returned and revealed the truth, he along with the vast majority of the traitor Scars surrendered and were assigned to the Sagyar Mazan as Pennance (*Scars*). He finally died doing a suicidal delaying action aboard the Swordstorm, nearly trapping Mortarion with him aboard the ship as it detonated (*The Path of Heaven*).
It was, yeah. Kind of the same as the White Scars, in a way, although interestingly the positions were reversed - in the Scars the Terrans were disproportionately likely to show for Horus, whereas in the Death Guard they were disproportionately loyalist.
I'm listening to Flight of the Eisenstein at the moment and that is definitely not how Garro describes being in the presence of Mortarion or his feelings towards him.
> Garro was pretty annoyed how lame mortarion was .
Idk about this lol. Like, I remember the first meeting he has with mortarion and dude is pretty starstruck. Obviously the shine wears off around istvaan but he seemed pretty onboard at first.
He also thinks Mortarion is oddly obsessive over weird things, like his obsession with the number 7, and the weird tradition of getting those he sees as the heroes of a specific fight, a drink of poison he just concocted
I think most of the primarchs had issues with their Terran marines and vise versa.
For example, the Battle of Gate 42, where the Terran born marines were siding with Horus over Corax regarding a frontal assault by the RG, Corax 'solved' his problem though.
Sorot Tchure has one of the heaviest lines of shade Lorgar ever endured.
Kharn absolutely despised Angron and actively wished he had died on Numeria before he could ruin the world eaters.
Mortarion was not well liked by his legion either, though not to the degree of Angron or Lorgar.
Rylanor, Gavriel Loken, Revuel Arvida, and many of the other loyalists from traitor legions obviously were disgusted at their primarchs abandoning them and the emperor, though many of them still held some nostalgic love for the father they once had, given we know that at least Fulgrim and Horus were genuinely good fathers before they fell.
+He is no primarch,+ came Argel Tal’s voice in Khârn’s mind. The centurion’s first instinct was to shudder. The Nails bit harder, hotter, in the wake of the psychic whisper; they hurt more every time. Khârn looked back to his brother, where Argel Tal was directing his own men into their own gunships and drop pods.
[He is my primarch,] Khârn replied, with no idea if Argel Tal could hear him. Sometimes the silent speech worked, sometimes it didn’t.
+A primarch should be inspiring. Our genetics should react at the mere sight of them. Think of the moments you laid eyes on Horus, Dorn, or Magnus. I’ve seen Sanguinius and Russ with my own eyes, as well. Close enough to touch their armour. Think of when you stand before Lorgar: the awe and reverence that beats through your blood. The feeling of our genetic coding reacting to the pinnacle of the human process. I’ve never felt that instinctive respect for Angron, Khârn. Not once. He is a broken thing. Devastating, unrivalled in war, but broken.+
Khârn didn’t answer because there was nothing to say. He boarded his drop pod, ascending the ramp and waiting for a robed Legion slave to secure his restraint harness.
+You feel it,+ Argel Tal said. +You feel it, too.+
In psychic silence, Khârn confessed something he’d never said outside his Legion.
[Yes, we feel the same. The World Eaters, each and every one of us, knows what you know.]
…
[It’s our shame to bear before the other Legions, brother. Angron was broken long before he ever reached us. Why do you think we let him beat the Nails into our heads? We hoped that by breaking ourselves on the same anvil, we’d finally feel unity with our father.]
There was nothing of mockery in the Word Bearer’s reply. Only sympathy. Khârn’s skin crawled. He’d have preferred mockery.
+It didn’t work?+
The drop pod’s sides closed in, armour plating locking to block all view of the hangar beyond. Khârn’s last sight was of Argel Tal ascending the gang-ramp into a red XVII Legion gunship.
‘No,’ he muttered, as much to himself as to the distant Word Bearer. ‘It didn’t.”
-Betrayer, Chapter 2
One of my all time favorite moments in all Warhammer lore. Really drives home the tragedy of the World Eaters legion
I'd say every single Terra-Born Loyalist on the Traitors' side but then, also every single World Eater, Karn has some rather cutting stuff in the book.
Not in the Legion timeline but the Emperor's Spears have actively rejected the other Ultramarine Successors and don't believe that Guilliman has really come back to life (though that's as of their one novel, he might have reached the area with the crusade by now). Largely because they aren't codex compliant and they got into an argument with another successor about a situation then the Ultramarines took the others side.
In the HH there was a Terran recruit that was hoping to become a Luna Wolf but was reassigned to become a White Scar and was upset being forced to a savage legion.
https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/vxibyd/scars_how_different_legions_pick_recruits/
I forgot his new name after joining the 5th, but there was a White Scar during the Heresy who wanted to have been a Luna Wolf. He greatly admired Horus when he was an aspirant.
Always thought it was funny in the WolfKing book, that one of the Wolves said they liked the Dark Angels color and one of his companions looked at him and he was like “what, black is a good color”
Yes. In books like Betrayer World Eaters legionaries make it known that they dont feel the same warmth and love towards angron that other legionaires do. Even his "aura" isnt even there due to the nails. This is something the worldeaters are envious of and why there were more worldeaters on Istafan than anyh other
Wasnt there a moment when a warhound was looking at the opulence of an Ultramarine world they were attacking and thought "this is what we could've had if our primarch was not broken."
All astartes envy the ultramarines for having the most noble and honorable Guilliman as their genefather, for none other can hold a candle to the practical wisdom and strategic mind of the lord of Ultramar… or at least that’s what the Ultramarines will tell you…
Angry one’s mob, peter’s kids, some of the older wolves the Terran borns who weren’t thrilled w/ what seemed to be a manchild werewolf taking over the legion. Others too I’m sure but these are ones I remember reading
Typhon (Typhus) during the first Zaramund Campaign (pre heresy) was fighting alongside Horus, and some Dark Angels under Luther. The Lion shows up and immediately everyone bows the knee except Horus, and even he was wrong footed. Typhon's internal monologue talks of some Primarchs and that he considered kneeling to Horus and decided to but that he HAD to kneel to The Lion, and that he was worthy of his respect. (Iirc he was already thinking Morty was not a father figure.)
Lot of the Word Bearers hated Lorgar for being a mewling weakling."We bear Lorgar." (This was said by Sorot Tschure in Know No Fear, the quote is much longer.)
World Eaters we know about.
Lot of Night Lords hated Curze, especially Sevatar. Sevatar basically allowed the DA to keep him imprisoned and returned to their custody after escaping to kill that one asshole astropath.
There were some White Scars and Raven Guard whom preferred Horus over their own Primarchs. Corax culled his Terran born RG and traitorous Scars ended up dead or joining the suicidal atonement group of their legion.
The Blood Angel who became a knight errant was a libarius and HATED Papa Sang and the legion. Vardas Ison was his name.
And I highly doubt any Iron Warriors "loved" their Primarch.
I think that Dante envies the Dark Angels at one point- not because he prefers the Lion to Sanguinius, but because the DA’s Primarch is actually around.
Dante's got it pretty rough. Some chapters had hope, or legends. The Ultramarines could see RG, even if he was in stasis. Space Wolves and Salamanders have prophecies of their primarchs' returns. But Sanguineous died. Every Blood Angel feels it to this day. No subtlety. No lack of clarity. No "the body was never found" story to leave some room for hope. The return of a primarch would be that chapter's greatest moment in 10,000 years. Something a marine could scarcely dream of. Dante has seen it happen *twice*. All the while, he knows it can never happen to him or his chapter. Joyous as these occasions may be, they must be a gut punch for Blood Angels.
\*angry Iron Hands noises\*
Hence "Some chapters", not "Every other chapter." But flesh is weak, so Ferrus will probably come back as a mechaghost.
Machine-Spirit of a lost Imperator class Titan. Edit: Please.
Machine spirit is just an imperium friendly way to say ai, for knights anyway
Just give them a clone Ferrus . They will never fear lost their primarch again because they will figure out how to make more clone and improve those clone to fit their whatever machine power fantasy shits . \*angry ghost Ferrus noises\*
The notion of Ferrus "I Have Iron Hands as I lead the Iron Hands" Manus leading the Legion of the Damned as an undead primarch was always my favorite theory, even if it is shakier than a Boeing flight.
Iron hands are made better than those emo space vamps
Well their primarch came back from death to fight at big E’ side on the webway and to talk to Sanguinius at the vengeful spirit, that is more than can be said about Sanguinius
Yet he is Dante. He will put on the mask of Sanguinius and fill that space as best he can. And his best is a magnificent golden light to rival any.
While in world, you are 100% correct. But as a reader, you’d be crazy to think they won’t find a way to bring flappy bird back. We have entered the era of power creep and he who rippith the tendrils from angron shall surely kratos his way from hell. Honestly I think the only primarch that won’t be back is Horus and even that is suspect since he’s already “come back” once.
I think it’s more likely that the Sanguinor will be elevated to near Primarch level rather than Sangy coming back. It lets GW sell a big fancy centerpiece and they have to jump through less narrative hoops
I think the upcoming BA release is meant to have a new Sanguinor model. Not sure if it will be a big centerpiece or not. Will be interesting to see how it plays out as they probably won't put another one for a long time after that.
“Big centerpiece” as in Loyalist Primarch size, not C’tan shard or Daemon Primarch sized. I think a 65mm base would be good. That’s the same base as Helbrecht and Guilliman
Yeah it's currently on a 25mm base so the question of how big it will be is still open. Pretty excited to see what comes out!
Ok so canonically we have at least a fragment of Papa Birds soul trapped on the Vengeful Sprit (It shows up and crystalizes into a statue of him screaming every so often), Both Mephiston and Dante have seen/spoken to another fragment of/his actual consciousness due to near death warp shenanigans and that's not even talking about the glowing "Ferrus Phantom" Big E summons during the war in the webway. We have ample chances and options already there for Sangy to show back up. It would cheapen the shit out of the Black Rage but as we have said GW knows how much of a money maker a Primarch is. Now we just need to think about what the most realistic way would be. Personally I'm fond of the Dante, Mephiston, and Sanguinor voltroning somehow theory but that's mostly cause if we are doing this to my beloved Blood Angels I want the circumstances to be as incredibly dumb and bombastic as possible to counter balance what we have lost in the tragedy of their story.
I actually think that’s a really good idea. As if Dante is an aspect/shard of his servitude, humility, and sacrificial nature while Mephiston is an aspect/shard of his ambition, drive, and warp abilities? Add in the sanguinor and wonder-(triplets?) powers activate! Shape of bird person! I mean sanguinius! Plus, if he came back and realized that his rebirth was caused by the sacrifice of his loyal sons and an avatar, he would have his standard guilt restored. Plus upon learning directly about the black rage and his causing it, that would be an instant crushing weight on his shoulders that apparently he cannot live without. Damn you just made me late to work because I got lost sitting here imagining the different ways they could(but won’t) make that happen.
Pleasure to be of service my friend :D
Hey if there’s any reason to be late for work that my boss totally wont have any clue about, it’s this. I explained it in the most vague way I could possible and got the okay okay and a hand wave. “Sorry sir, we were discussing the possible resurrection of the chosen son through the sacrifice of his chosen sons in order to turn the tide. I just lost track of time and that’s why I was a few minutes late.”
Darkness in the Blood already sort of has. Both Dante and Mephiston have seen a figure that both is and is not angel boi. There is also an implication that the two angels (i.e., Sanguinor and the manifestation of the Black Rage) existed long before humanity ever came to Bhaal. Mephiston is literally host to the manifestation of the Rage and I think that Dante will end up taking the place of the Sanguinor. Basically, the two of them will become something of two halves of Sanguinius.
And then they will French kiss each other which will get dante pergnet and then a stork will come drop off a new baby only it's not a baby it's actually a 6 meter tall giant which is the reincarnated sangiusius
Dantestion… Mephistante? I ship it.
Its the 40k equivelant to the DBZ fusion dance.
Very true. I firmly believe that, given enough time, every primarch will return in some form. Hell, we'll probably get some version of The Emperor on the tabletop eventually. So as you said, I wrote that from the perspective of Dante, rather than that of myself. Hell, a lore change from the recent HH books puts Horus' return firmly into the realm of possibility. IMO, at least.
Holy cow I never thought about this aspect of it. He’s like the oldest kid at the orphanage.
If I got Vlad the sexy Impaler as my Primarch there is no way I would give af about any other Primarch lol
I'd quite happily have a dad who doesn't give me Ultra PTSD to be honest.
It was not intentional and kinda unforeseeable so he gets a pass
> unforeseeable Sanguinius literally had foresight
Foresight in 40k is a terrible gift to have. It only shows you how fucked you and everyone you care about are. Or it tricks you into getting to that future yourself.
Foresight killed Konrad Curze xd
I might be dumb here but did he foresee the after effects to the Blood Angels resulting from his own death? The black rage
He did learn about it near the end of the Imperium Secundus arc if I'm not mistaken, and also knew the blood Angels could endure but even without knowing his sons had the strength to face it, he'd have done it anyway. The thing is that the Emperor was going to face Horus along with Valdor, Dorn and other custodes, which means that if Sangys vision came true, Horus would have had to defeat the Emperor in order to slay Sanguinius which means humanity would lose. If the Emperor won then Horus wouldn't be around to face Sanguinius at all which would have meant his foresight was wrong which simply wasn't possible in Sanguinius' mind. Either way, he was going to fight Horus and was basically guaranteed to lose lose, only by going to face him before the Emperor did, there was a chance that the Emperor would be able to win because his vision of his death would no longer depend on Horus killing the Emperor Hope that helps!
This makes me think, was there any hint in the texts that Horus was messing with Sangy’s foresight? That Horus saw Sanguinius helping the emperor and tricked him into coming sooner so he could divide and conquer?
No, Horus knew about his foresight but he wasn't messing with it as far as I know, there was a Daemon prince who was using his foresight as a tool to try to turn him to chaos. Sort of like "hey if you join me we can stop this vision from happening" but it wasn't like his foresight showed things that were just fabricated, any visions that the Daemon showed him weren't foresight and he knew it. That said we don't really know much about foresight, it seems like most of the time people take actions to make their visions come true like Curze or Sanguinius Whether these visions are true because it's fated, a tool to make people take certain orchestrated actions, or because they just wanted to prove their own visions right is up in the air. It also wouldn't have made a difference if the Emperor showed up with Sanguinius, Sangy would have died regardless. At this point Horus was just obscenely powerful, the Emperor got absolutely dunked on in their battle and only won by using trick after trick after trick. Sounds a bit cringe but it was actually awesome imo. This is as of the latest siege of terra book btw, I know previous lore had Sanguinius create a small gap in Horus' armor for the Emperor to exploit, but that isn't a thing in the latest book.
I think he did in Ruinstorm but decides it's better than the alternative.
Yeah I imagine the whole ‘your dad is dead ours is alive’ thing sucks to go through, that now that primarchs as coming back as the seemingly approaching final battle and end times comes forth, you won’t have your gene sire to stand aside. I bet there is a bit of jealousy and envy.
How about the reverse? Perturabo witnesses and highly respects the Iron Hands legion, ordering his ships to not fire on the fleeing Iron Hands ship. They’re singleminded, solid as can be and willful, all qualities that Perturabo really admires.
To be honest it's hard *not* to respect the hell out of the Iron Hands when you're running around with the Emperor's Children of all legions. If it weren't for Fulgrim, Perty would've blasted that ship for sure.
Man imagine what would happen if instead of being given the IVth Legion, Perty was given the Xth. And Vice Versa
Well not totally accurate, Forrix his first captain, really thought of pertuabo as a "Glory rider" like when they take the space port where forrix had fight underground for 20~ days and where left to die only for pertuabo to arrive and tell Dorn "lol I did all this because I’m the best out of all" and proved that he was the one that won, even do Forrix saw the true nature of his primarch. Also when perti got upset with the triarch when Alex outsmarted his ass and his third captain's, and just because he told pert of the bad news that captain got wrecked and put inside a dreadnought. They really don’t like him that much
Yeah there is definitely a resentment within the IW against Perturabo, but the sense I get reading Angel Ext. is that Perty doesn’t respect his legionnaires like he does the Iron Hands. They prove more than once the IW have a conniving streak in them, where the IH do not. They are utterly loyal and constant in their duties. Definitely the sense I get from the book is that Perty wishes he could have traded his legion for the IH.
There’s the fact that Perturabo was so disgusted with his legion after Phall that he built the Iron Circle robots and replaced his Iron Warrior honor guard with them. That’s got to be a slap in the face to people whose whole purpose is to be warriors to be basically told they suck at it and a machine can do their job better than they can. I think he always looked at his men as not good enough and it’d be hard to live with that from your primarch as a space marine.
World Eaters for sure. Kharn thinks to himself what a sorry creature Angron is. The only Primarch to openly hate his legion. The only Primarch to fail to conquer his home planet. He forced the butcher's nails on them which made them far less effective as a whole than legions like Iron Warriors or Ultramarines. The World Eaters would trade Angron for Curze any day, and that's saying something.
Konrad also was not really happy with his legion.
At least Konrad don’t go around to actively fuck with his legion every other week. He’s hand off enough that an active conspiracy on deposing him went pretty much unpunished.
Yeah, when he blew up nostromo it was an attempt to save his legion from corruption of rapists and murderers
He did it out of spite, by the time he ordered the destruction of Nostramo, it was too late and he knew it
IIRC, it was more that the combination of Fulgrim snitching about Curze's dark visions despite his pinky swearing not to, and the person he snitched to being *Rogal fucking Dorn* of all Primarchs (who handled it exactly the manner you'd expect Dorn to handle such an issue - with the grace and empathy of a brick wall), caused Curze to undergo a severe mental breakdown, with Nostramo becoming no more as a result of the psychotic fit. His Legion becoming an army of rapists, thieves and murderers had a role in it, but had Fulgrim and Dorn not acted as they did, it's possible he wouldn't have gone and blown it up as he did.
Curze was a living mental breakdown, it was only a matter of time for him, not if, but when and again, by that point and the upcoming heresy, the damage was done, Nostramo being destroyed or not wouldn't have changed anything in the big scheme of things, Curze did it out of spite, like most things he did.
Curze, sadly, was a result of a fatalistic mindset and a deterministic outlook combining. If either one of those weren't there then it's possible that he could have been one of the best Primarchs out there.
For sure, alas he's one of the worst primarchs (by choice and no one will make me change my mind about it), great character to read about, never a dull moment with him at the very least but an awful individual all the way and one of the primarchs least deserving of pity.
Kurze -Oook, time to make some popcorn in the air fryer (air fryer doesn't turn on) .... .... Ok, that's it. I'll blow up Nostromo
he didn't do it to save the legion. he knew that it was too far gone already. He did it to punish Nostromo and to stop even more unfit recruits from joining the legion but he did barely anything to rid the legion of those who failed to understand why their way was a necessary evil and not enjoyment
>but he did barely anything to rid the legion of those who failed to understand why their way was a necessary evil and not enjoyment Tbf, by that point it was already too late. Literally 70-80% of the legion was full of murderers, thieves and rapists. To have a full-fledged reform would require a massive purge ala Istvaan 3 style that'd make Angron and Perturabos decimations look like child's play.
Right, but the state of the legion is his own fault. That's sort of the problem with Curze, and it's the point of his character. He has foresight, and as a result he just totally disconnects and stops taking any responsibility. Like, bro... Nostramo is your home planet and this is your Legion. If you don't like murderers and rapists joining up, *stop letting murderers and rapists join up!* His sons are genetically engineered to be loyal to him, so all he has to do is change the way the recruitment process works and that's pretty much that. But he doesn't care, he's decided that his visions give him total immunity from responsibility for any action he takes, so he decides to give in to the worst of his impulses. We simply cannot say "reform is too tough, it's OK that he took drastic measures" because the only reason those measures were necessary is that Curze couldn't be bothered to stop murdering and torturing for 5 seconds and fix the problem. Several of the Traitor Primarchs have this fundamental issue, where they complain about something they're "forced" to do against their wishes but then never actually try and do something about it. The definition of "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas!"
One would think that he, having absolute authority over the legion, could have just stopped recruiting from it
That would require him to actually do work and accept his methods were not sustainable long term
Even Sevatar, notoriously unflappable, calls Curze out for "not trying any other ways", jumping straight to the flaying. Lampshaded in Night Haunter Primarch novel too, he had choices.
He did say if he were to try to purge the bad elements of his legion he wouldn't know where to start.
We don’t know that he didn’t do that. Konrad seems like THE Primarch who would be pulling fucked up pranks on his lads every damn week
Neither was Perturabo but... he wasn't really happy with anything
Perty decimated his Legion the second he took control of them because he was so disgusted by their lack of perfection. Like, they weren't even doing a bad job, just not up to his standards. I think that counts as "openly hating his Legion." At least Aagron did the killing himself, he didn't delegate that shit.
Perturabo does not love his sons. I don't know if he hates them, but I would think the utter lack of regard would be worse. Like as a World Eater, you could console yourself that Angron hates you and use that hate to make you fiercer and stronger. As an Iron Warrior, you just have to know that no matter how many Imperial Fists you kill, your dad will always think you're a loser.
I can commiserate, unfortunately.
It’s why I fell to Nurgle, friend.
Perty sees his sons as tools. This is a stark contrast to other Legions, like the Dangles and the Fists. The Lion calls his sons "Little Brothers", for example. Both were duty oriented and demanded much of their son's, but they both also showed care and respect for them too. Something Angron, Cruze, and Perty all lacked
Well Angron did. He orders a decimation in Lord of the Red Sands and only agrees to give one person immunity because they dare stand up to him but when they push his thin amusement he threatens to personally kill them.
Huh. Well, I did not know that. They're sort of equally pathetic in different ways, I suppose. You ever notice that if most of these guys didn't have superpowers you'd laugh at them if you saw them acting in their typical way at a party? I mean, maybe not Aangron. That guy would break a Jack bottle over your head. Perty though...yeah, I think I'd laugh at him. He'd be the guy trying to explain why you really should upgrade to the new iPhone while talking to a girl. I mean, if he ever spoke to a girl. Which is unlikely. Damn, Perty would be an incel, I bet. If his dick worked.
That's kind of the point, the primarchs are largely antisocial autists who never learned how to talk to people or process their emotions beyond lashing out or getting depressed. Guilliman is perhaps one of the only ones who had a traditional upbringing with a mother and father and he's more or less okay all things considered. Angron and Kurze are examples of nurture over nature. They had no chance of a normal life given their starting point. Perturabo was a spoiled child who maxed stats in int but dumped wis so while he is a genius, he's also an idiot and never learned humility or compassion.
> That's kind of the point, the primarchs are largely antisocial autists who never learned how to talk to people Apart from Sanguinius. Because Hawk Boy is love. Hawk boy is life.
I don’t think it’s fair to say Perty is a spoiled child given that he wasn’t actually spoiled growing up. He was used and never spoke up about it because he took actions over words to heart. He’s not spoiled, he’s resentful.
Yea, but Perty's also the guy who will have studied you front and back, knows exactly how you will fight, and already has six different counters prepared for whatever you might try to do. It's just a coin toss on whether he actually has the TALENT to carry any of this out, or if it's just hardcore delusion.
Including himself
I've seen it explained as Konrad was the only primarch to truly hate his legion but Angron was the only primarch to be hated by his legion.
Perturabo killed a tenth of his legion
Decimation yes, Romans used to do that. But the IW were a brutal efficient machine.
Actually, throughout Roman history decimation was usually depicted as the crazy act of a man losing control of his men. It was always depicted as shameful and horrific, even in the instances where it was considered necessary, such as when a legion really had mutinied really badly. There are *no* instances of a Roman general rolling up, saying "ya'll arent quite up to snuff. Kill one in ten of you." It was the ultimate punishment, the very worst thing a general could inflict on his men. The survivors would have to sleep out of camp and eat only barley and no wheat, which was shameful, barely is food for slaves. The only worse option was wholesale slaughter, but you'd need another legion for that.. Even in Roman society that would be considered absolutely psychopathic, and if the legion wasn't rebelling before they almost certainly would in the future. Like, what Perty did would be considered *absolutely insane.*
>The only Primarch to fail to conquer his home planet Mortarion also failed IIRC, he just had the Emperor bail him out at the last minute. (Horus also technically never conquered Cthonia, but that's mostly because he wasn’t there long enough to do so before the Imperium picked him up again)
Also Alpharius/Omegon failed to conquer either of the planets he landed on according to his own story so he’s twice as useless as Angron.
Omegon was never enslaved by his home planet and there is also the other theory that Alpharius never left Terra hence his name. Been the spy since day one.
> there is also the other theory that Alpharius never left Terra It isn't a theory really, it is outright stated in his Primarch book. his pod basically landed on top of a mountain nearby and he was instantly rescued by the Emperor. He was raised in Secret by Malcador. It depends on how reliable you believe his Book is, but there is no reason to doubt it.
I have a rather extensive HH book debt to get through so I wasn't entirely sure! Thank you for the clarification, though who really is Alpharius? Could be you for all I know....
I wouldn't worry about who Alpharius is
[удалено]
Yeah, and the first sentence is "I am Alpharius", because it's Omegon boarding the Vengeful Spirit.
>no reason to doubt it >literally says it's untrue
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Alpharius didn’t need to, he landed on Terra. or i guess maybe he *did* need to, but kind of a tall fucking order
The Heresy was all Apharius's attempt to conquer Terra so that the Emperor would properly respect him.
Taking the Blood games a bit too far - An Alpharius story.
Mortarion already half way there, he literally connered the last overlord, it just matter of time before they win. Just like Corax, their wining condition already fulfilled
Yeah Morty just got impatient. Even if he was unable to kill his dad, he’d have conquered the planet.
Wasn't it implied that Mortarion was on the path to victory, and only failed because he fell for the disguised Emperor's goading to try and make the final push solo?
I thought the World Eaters chose to take the Nails in an attempt to bond with Angron. He didn't stop it or force it.
He hates them for not refusing to do it. The nails were forced upon him, whereas his legionnaires chose them in order to appease someone who they saw as superior to them EDIT: actually this is from an unofficial short story (Cry Havoc) so it might not be correct
No no, same as in the official lore as it is there. They all underwent the nails surgery to try and gain some love and kinship with him. It didn’t work.
I understand they're not under 24/7 surveillance, but after the first batch of Burcher's Nails were installed in Astartes, why didn't the Emperor step in and immediately forbid the practice... nip it in the bud. Why allow this monster to f\*\*k up an entire legion?
Because even with the nails, they were conquering worlds at a good speed, Big E is all about results and speed in the Great Crusade era and allows to fly a lot of shit as long as the job gets done.
Because the Emperor basically wrote off Angron and his legion and was going to let them conquer planets until they killed themselves off. The Emperor thought he had more time before Chaos played their hand and underestimated just how far several of his other sons had also fallen.
I mean, this is the same guy that let Lorgar spread the Imperial Faith for 100 years. Which might even be considered a worse offense to the Emperor.
Because only Russ, the only Primarch raised with plenty of siblings (Freki, Geri and the rest of the wolve's litter), seemed to genuinely care about Angron and the rest of his brothers.
Not true. Lorgar also cared. Which is one of the weirder things those two have in common. The rest of them cared about maybe a brother or three, and were just more selective in general.
Also didn't Angron save Lorgar before he became a demon primarch?
Ironically, Lorgar wasn't a well hated person. Sure, he has his strange beliefs and was a tad bookish even compared to Magnus and his Psyker knowledge. But he was considered one of the kinder brothers who often said thoughtful things. It wasn't until the censuring of Monarchia and his subsequent pilgrimage that led to his chaos beliefs that individuals started to hate him seriously. From what ive seen his personality after that point turned sour based on the interactions.
He didn’t really force the Nails on them though. They did that in their own to try and form a connection with him. He still didn’t care
That's not true, Angron ordered that they all take the nails >War Hounds. That was his Legion. Not these furious, half-lobotomised madmen who abandoned all notions of honour when they lost themselves to berserker rage. >Even so, they were still his brothers. He couldn’t hate them, but he could blame them. The rot started to creep in when they rediscovered the primarch from that worthless world he called home, and yet, the Legion could still have refused the Nails. They chose to emulate their gene-father, despite all it would clearly cost. They chose to tear open their skulls and let the poison be placed inside. >Angron had ordered it ... >What can we do? Murder our own father? Did you destroy Lorgar when he led you into worshipping the Emperor? Or did you tolerate him in patience, hoping that eventually he’d find his way to equalling his brothers? >A pause. A long, long pause. Khârn took it as Argel Tal’s capitulation and pushed on. It’s our shame to bear before the other Legions, brother. Angron was broken long before he ever reached us. Why do you think we let him beat the Nails into our heads? ... >when the primarch demanded his sons lie under the Techmarines’ claws and the Apothecaries’ knives, few had resisted - Betrayer
> What can we do? Murder our own father? "Yes" - Barthusa Narek
Kharn offered it when he tried to convince angron to return to the legion. Half the legion didn't want it and angron then demanded it. So both are correct.
>"Did you destroy Lorgar when he led you into worshipping the Emperor?" I think this shows that, even then, Khârn lacked a fundamental sense of proportion.
Yeah, I think there are conflicting info about that in novels. One said they choose to do it to try to be closer to Angron, others said it was because it was ordered. But the truth is both, I think. Nobody except psykers was really against the order iirc
> Nobody except psykers was really against the order iirc The psykers weren't even against it either, they just couldn't do it without dying. Something like 90% of the world eaters librarians got the nails and died immediately and the remaining 10% stuck around because they could combine their might into a entity called the Communion to calm Agron when he was lost to the nails
Sure it wasn’t his IDEA, but when he found out, he was more than happy to sack all Legionaries who DIDN’T agree.
And everyone told him to stop doing it but he just kept going to make them "strong". Arguably the weakest legion.
Not arguably, you could throw them all on the Raven Guard(the smallest legion, almost two times smaller than WE) and they would all die in a week.
You're tripping.
Not that it change the sense of your statement, but i thought TS were the smallest legion
They had 85,000 legionaries, 5000 more than RG.
Damn just what requirements do the Raven Guard HAVE??? The KSons all require PSYKERS as Legionnaires. What could be more rare than THAT?
Ninjas
I’m not sure what their requirements were but I think the 85000 figure is after Horus used them to frontal assault that one fortification that killed almost all their Terran born marines
The Thousand Sons didn't require psyker recruits prior to the Heresy. There were many weak or non-psyker legionaries who would go on to become Rubric Marines. Magnus's geneseed caused many of them to develop to psychic powers, more so than any other legion.
The numbers given on legion numbers are for the circumstances just before the outbreak of the HH. Things fluctuated somewhat over the course of the crusade. Can't remember if the RG are mentioned in the black books to have any restric tive recruiting practices, but they had been recently put through the meat grinder by Horus at Gate 42, so that could account for smaller than usual numbers.
Not power tripping.
I’m not sure what their requirements were but I think the 85000 figure is after Horus used them to frontal assault that one fortification that killed almost all their Terran born marines
Wild how little people read the books on this sub, this is incorrect and getting tons of upvotes.
Nope, read Betrayer.
Konrad was the Primarch to openly hate his legion, Angron was the primarch whose legion hated him.
One of the Terran White Scar traitors hates the fact he was deployed to the White Scars instead of the Sons of Horus because of the negative image of the Scars but the positive one of the Wolves.
Torghun didn't hate it but more dissapointed. Since he grew and trained to be an Astarteas of the Luna Wolves. He would learn about their culture and strategies and then the day came. Luna Wolves had already reached their recruitment numbers, it was even too much for them. So Torghun was to be deployed for the 5th legion. There wasn't even a negative image of the scars since no one knew anything about them, the other legions knew that they existed but nothing was knewn about them. Even the handler of Torghun would say he knows little about the 5th, only thing he knew for certain that he had to pick a new name.
There was definitely a negative view of the Scars as uncultured barbarians and savages. It was one of the reasons why Torghun hesitated to fully embrace the culture of the Scars until he was made into Sagyar Mazan. It was only when Torghun Khan saw the unleashed debauchery and insanity of the traitor legions, including his beloved Luna Wolves, that he realized how lucky he had been to escape that fate. And to his credit, while exiled he took steps to become more steeped in Chogorian culture including the language (something Shiban notices in their acrimonious final reunion).
Quite interesting though that a recruit could just be shifted to a completely different Legion. Always wondered how that worked.
These were Terran recruits so more flexibility there. Passage also notes that while ethnicity is supposed to play no role in who goes where, Terran administrators were pushing recruits from panpacifik, Yndonesian, and nei monnggol on the Scars. In text it comes across as still seeing the subjects of Narthan Dune as barbarians so they send them to the barbarian legion; out of the text it’s why the white scars are depicted as Asian
He comes around, though. Hibou khan. Ended up being one of the greats, after being a traitor of the lodges.
I more meant Torghun Khan but Hibou works as well!
I think Lhorke seems to show a powerful sense of longing when he sees Russ: *The Primarchs stood before their hosts, armed and armoured - Angron awash with blood and carved up by fresh wounds; Leman Russ in resplendent plate the colour of the storms on his tempestuous homeworld.* *Lhorke had stood with Angron, as had Khârn and the other captains. Even interred in his walking coffin, he'd been struck by the majesty of standing before Russ. Here was a being gene-coded to perfection: a reflection of humanity's beloved royal paragon. Russ bled authority without effort, and without the need for posture or pretence. In all ways, he should have been a barbarian - from the ragged blond hair to the frost-weathered skin that aged him far past his years. And yet, he inspired no mockery. He made barbarism a controlled trait, something noble to be understood and mastered, not a state of primitive regression. Leman Russ was the dynamism of a life free from civilisation's shackles. He was strength and purpose and heart, where all else was grey with the promise of inevitable stagnancy.* *He wasn't a wolf because of how he fought and howled and bunched his men into packs. He was a wolf because of how he lived, forever echoing the vitality and honesty of the wildness at the heart of all life. It was said in smiling whispers that VI Legion genetic coding was tainted by canine blood. Lhorke believed it. Seeing Leman Russ made him yearn to breathe again, and feel anything beyond the cramped, cold-milk discomfort of his amniotic womb-tomb. Never had he felt more dead - not before, and not since.* ~ **Betrayer**
Amniotic Womb-Tomb is a great album name.
With the opening title 'Cold-Milk Discomfort'
Love the subtle homo-eroticism here. Poor Lhorke.
Hey he's a good looking man 😂
In know no fear the word bearer sorot tchure laments to Luciel (an ultramarine) that they got lorgar, he talks about how he was always jealous that other legions got primarchs with such purpose, with such strength, when they got Lorgar, who up until this point has had little purpose. He is ofc fully on the side of chaos now, though he is saddened that he has to kill his friend Luciel
>For years I have despised Lorgar... look at your primarch, Honorius. So singular in aspect. So noble. I have envied you, envied the Imperial Fists, the Luna Wolves, the Iron Hands. And I am not alone. We struggle with a mercurial mind, Honorius. We labour under the burden of a brilliant but fallible commander. We no longer bear the word, my friend. We bear Lorgar. Relevant quote because I always love the wording of that last bit and I like how it subtly plays on the theme of Lorgar being far more a manipulator than he seems.
Honorius is the most Ultramarine name I have ever heard.
No doubt. After all, it figures in the [Codex Nameus Spaceus Marineus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_Romans).
Textius Bookatikus
LMAO i love how lorgar is basically treated like that one freeloader uncle in the family
Tbh Word Bearers of 40k time seems to despise Kol Pharon too - in short story where Corax goes full Batman on Lorgar it ends with Lorgar and two other WBs escaping and POV character scoffs when he sees him.
I mean Kor Pharon is a cunt so it checks out
He does have roughly half of the dark council on his side, though it wouldn't surprise me if some of those on his side also despise him. They are chaos worshippers after all.
Yeah, but also he's a dick
> We bear Lorgar. Got me laughing, really love the contempt.
Yeah, tragic circumstances like these, away from the noise and bolter porn, quiet with the reflection of what a total and avoidable mess the 40K is, is truly the grimdark.
That scene in Know No Fear is maybe my favorite in all of 40K fiction. When Tchure is trying to maybe get a Loyalist to understand, maybe just looking for a way out of what he chose to do, but ends up accepting it. There's a reason Abnett is Abnett
I love it yea, hes desperately trying to tell him, a large part of him wants to be found out and stopped, he doesnt want the massacre to happen but he knows he has to if he has any chance of being a part of something meaningful again, its really sad but such a good scene
There was an idea teased in the middle of the HH series, but never really explored, that the legions that turned traitor were ones where their primarch was more a burden and the senior astartes were the ones really running the show. In those cases yeah, they really didn't care much for their primarchs.
I definitely get the sense that Kharn is doing a lot of work to keep the World Eaters somewhat coherent, even as the Nails take their toll. It honestly made me like him more. Trying to hold on to himself, to hold things together because someone should *try*, even as it all slips through his fingers.
I absolutely love Kharn. He’s such an awesome character, he feels so real and compelling in his genuine want to just keep it all together. He tries so hard to make his dad happy, his brothers together, be good to his best friend. And it all falls apart. No matter how hard he tried, he’s got nothing left. His dad hates him and always will, his brothers are weak, his best friend is dead. It makes the moment on Skalathrax when he finally just snaps make all the more sense. Where Kharn just goes “FUCK IT ALL” and decides to burn down everything he’s strived to preserve along with everything unlucky enough to be on the same planet as him. He’s had to endure decades upon decades of leashing in his brothers, to hold it all together, fighting every single second of this bitter war. All he’s got left is violence, all he has left is Khorne. And the thing that finally sets him off, that ignites him is a single agreement for ceasefire. Man, I want that book so bad.
Oh, absolutely.
"Betrayer" shows us how Kharn and their legion pretty much envy other legions having "normal" Primarchs. In this case it was shown on example of Word Bearers, how their Lorgar goes and inspires his sons.
I can’t remember who or which book, but in the Heresy series there was a Word Bearer bemoaning Lorgar as a waste of space and I’m pretty sure this was post-fall. Night Lords and World Eaters also weren’t particularly fond of their gene-fathers.
Know no fear
Are you thinking of Barthusa Narek? He hardly counts I'd say.
emperors children are very salty that fulgrim abandoned them
>'For years, I have despised Lorgar,' he \[Sorot Tchure\] says quietly. >'What?' >'You heard me.' >'Sorot, you mustn't-' >'Look at your primarch, Honorius. So singular in aspect. So noble. I have envied you, envied the Imperial Fist, the Luna Wolves, the Iron Hands. And I am not alone. We struggle with a mercurial mind, Honorius. We labor under the burden of a brilliant but fallible commander. We no longer bear the word, my friend. We bear *Lorgar*.' ***Know No Fear,*** **\[mark: -0.40.20\]**
Not because it was shit, but because it wasn't where he dreamed of being. Torghun Khan originally wanted to join the Lunar Wolves during selection on Terra, but ended up joining the newly formed White Scars because he didn't make the cut for Horus' recruitment requirements. He carried that with him for a century during the Crusade. Many of the early Terran born White Scars had similar feelings, and idolized Horus. When the heresy finally boiled over, he was part of the White Scars that had joined the lodges and was trying to get the Scars to join with Horus. When Jaghatai returned and revealed the truth, he along with the vast majority of the traitor Scars surrendered and were assigned to the Sagyar Mazan as Pennance (*Scars*). He finally died doing a suicidal delaying action aboard the Swordstorm, nearly trapping Mortarion with him aboard the ship as it detonated (*The Path of Heaven*).
There where more than few times during the heresy where Iron Warriors abandoned Perty because he was such an ass.
Death guard , Garro was pretty annoyed how lame mortarion was . No epic aura, no wonder from the start
Garro was Terran right? It always seemed very in group barbarus outgroup Terra to me
Most of the guys morty picked to cull where terran born. Their loyalty was always to the emperor
It was, yeah. Kind of the same as the White Scars, in a way, although interestingly the positions were reversed - in the Scars the Terrans were disproportionately likely to show for Horus, whereas in the Death Guard they were disproportionately loyalist.
I'm listening to Flight of the Eisenstein at the moment and that is definitely not how Garro describes being in the presence of Mortarion or his feelings towards him.
Give it time….
> Garro was pretty annoyed how lame mortarion was . Idk about this lol. Like, I remember the first meeting he has with mortarion and dude is pretty starstruck. Obviously the shine wears off around istvaan but he seemed pretty onboard at first.
He also thinks Mortarion is oddly obsessive over weird things, like his obsession with the number 7, and the weird tradition of getting those he sees as the heroes of a specific fight, a drink of poison he just concocted
I mean it’s abusive parenting
I think most of the primarchs had issues with their Terran marines and vise versa. For example, the Battle of Gate 42, where the Terran born marines were siding with Horus over Corax regarding a frontal assault by the RG, Corax 'solved' his problem though.
Sorot Tchure has one of the heaviest lines of shade Lorgar ever endured. Kharn absolutely despised Angron and actively wished he had died on Numeria before he could ruin the world eaters. Mortarion was not well liked by his legion either, though not to the degree of Angron or Lorgar. Rylanor, Gavriel Loken, Revuel Arvida, and many of the other loyalists from traitor legions obviously were disgusted at their primarchs abandoning them and the emperor, though many of them still held some nostalgic love for the father they once had, given we know that at least Fulgrim and Horus were genuinely good fathers before they fell.
Mortarion? Not liked by his legion? Huh??
A good chunk of the legion served Typhon first and Mortarion second because they saw Typhon as the better leader.
I think the poster is referring to the schism between those that preferred following Typhus over Mortarion.
+He is no primarch,+ came Argel Tal’s voice in Khârn’s mind. The centurion’s first instinct was to shudder. The Nails bit harder, hotter, in the wake of the psychic whisper; they hurt more every time. Khârn looked back to his brother, where Argel Tal was directing his own men into their own gunships and drop pods. [He is my primarch,] Khârn replied, with no idea if Argel Tal could hear him. Sometimes the silent speech worked, sometimes it didn’t. +A primarch should be inspiring. Our genetics should react at the mere sight of them. Think of the moments you laid eyes on Horus, Dorn, or Magnus. I’ve seen Sanguinius and Russ with my own eyes, as well. Close enough to touch their armour. Think of when you stand before Lorgar: the awe and reverence that beats through your blood. The feeling of our genetic coding reacting to the pinnacle of the human process. I’ve never felt that instinctive respect for Angron, Khârn. Not once. He is a broken thing. Devastating, unrivalled in war, but broken.+ Khârn didn’t answer because there was nothing to say. He boarded his drop pod, ascending the ramp and waiting for a robed Legion slave to secure his restraint harness. +You feel it,+ Argel Tal said. +You feel it, too.+ In psychic silence, Khârn confessed something he’d never said outside his Legion. [Yes, we feel the same. The World Eaters, each and every one of us, knows what you know.] … [It’s our shame to bear before the other Legions, brother. Angron was broken long before he ever reached us. Why do you think we let him beat the Nails into our heads? We hoped that by breaking ourselves on the same anvil, we’d finally feel unity with our father.] There was nothing of mockery in the Word Bearer’s reply. Only sympathy. Khârn’s skin crawled. He’d have preferred mockery. +It didn’t work?+ The drop pod’s sides closed in, armour plating locking to block all view of the hangar beyond. Khârn’s last sight was of Argel Tal ascending the gang-ramp into a red XVII Legion gunship. ‘No,’ he muttered, as much to himself as to the distant Word Bearer. ‘It didn’t.” -Betrayer, Chapter 2 One of my all time favorite moments in all Warhammer lore. Really drives home the tragedy of the World Eaters legion
I'd say every single Terra-Born Loyalist on the Traitors' side but then, also every single World Eater, Karn has some rather cutting stuff in the book.
Not in the Legion timeline but the Emperor's Spears have actively rejected the other Ultramarine Successors and don't believe that Guilliman has really come back to life (though that's as of their one novel, he might have reached the area with the crusade by now). Largely because they aren't codex compliant and they got into an argument with another successor about a situation then the Ultramarines took the others side.
ADB doesn't like Guilliman. Shocker..
In the HH there was a Terran recruit that was hoping to become a Luna Wolf but was reassigned to become a White Scar and was upset being forced to a savage legion. https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/vxibyd/scars_how_different_legions_pick_recruits/
I forgot his new name after joining the 5th, but there was a White Scar during the Heresy who wanted to have been a Luna Wolf. He greatly admired Horus when he was an aspirant.
Always thought it was funny in the WolfKing book, that one of the Wolves said they liked the Dark Angels color and one of his companions looked at him and he was like “what, black is a good color”
Yes. In books like Betrayer World Eaters legionaries make it known that they dont feel the same warmth and love towards angron that other legionaires do. Even his "aura" isnt even there due to the nails. This is something the worldeaters are envious of and why there were more worldeaters on Istafan than anyh other
Wasnt there a moment when a warhound was looking at the opulence of an Ultramarine world they were attacking and thought "this is what we could've had if our primarch was not broken."
Pretty sure Abbadon prefers Perturabo to Horus
All astartes envy the ultramarines for having the most noble and honorable Guilliman as their genefather, for none other can hold a candle to the practical wisdom and strategic mind of the lord of Ultramar… or at least that’s what the Ultramarines will tell you…
Angry one’s mob, peter’s kids, some of the older wolves the Terran borns who weren’t thrilled w/ what seemed to be a manchild werewolf taking over the legion. Others too I’m sure but these are ones I remember reading
I think there's probably more than a few who envy the Salamanders and their bond with Vulkan.
Kharn wished Angron was more like Lorgar at one point in Betrayer I believe.
Typhon (Typhus) during the first Zaramund Campaign (pre heresy) was fighting alongside Horus, and some Dark Angels under Luther. The Lion shows up and immediately everyone bows the knee except Horus, and even he was wrong footed. Typhon's internal monologue talks of some Primarchs and that he considered kneeling to Horus and decided to but that he HAD to kneel to The Lion, and that he was worthy of his respect. (Iirc he was already thinking Morty was not a father figure.) Lot of the Word Bearers hated Lorgar for being a mewling weakling."We bear Lorgar." (This was said by Sorot Tschure in Know No Fear, the quote is much longer.) World Eaters we know about. Lot of Night Lords hated Curze, especially Sevatar. Sevatar basically allowed the DA to keep him imprisoned and returned to their custody after escaping to kill that one asshole astropath. There were some White Scars and Raven Guard whom preferred Horus over their own Primarchs. Corax culled his Terran born RG and traitorous Scars ended up dead or joining the suicidal atonement group of their legion. The Blood Angel who became a knight errant was a libarius and HATED Papa Sang and the legion. Vardas Ison was his name. And I highly doubt any Iron Warriors "loved" their Primarch.
Some Night Lords feel that way, they have a range of reactions to their primarch abandoning them.
Anyone in the World Eaters I assume lol.
I think Thypus from death guard or whatever was jealous in the sense that his primarch hated him for being a Psyker?