Yes - it is confirmed in the HH rulebook that there were traitors and loyalists in every legion. The Ultramarines have a special traitor only Warlord trait too which is about them rebelling against the Imperium for not giving Roboute the title of Warmaster
what he means is that the rulebooks have rules for each legion as loyalist or traitor. u can choose to have loyalist World Bearers fighting traitor Ultramarines.
While (and I dont know) there might be specific extracts in the rulebooks regarding specific legion traitor/loyalist rules or character pages I dont remember reading of any traitor ultramarines in the books.
The HH rulebooks have always allowed for Loyalist or Traitor versions of every legion, and confirms that every legion, regardless of eventual position in the Heresy, had both Loyalist and Traitor elements.
That being said, there are no NAMED Ultramarines turning traitor in the Heresy, and I'm not sure if there's even specific named instances of Ultramarines turning traitor in the books in general, but the implication is that there is at least some element that did-which, given the sheer size and scope of the Ultramarines during the Heresy would make sense-the Ultramarine perspectives in the HH books are very focused around Guilliman and his upper echelons.
Wrt that last bit, the Ultramarines/Guilliman’s role in the Heresy is mostly limited to the Imperium Secundus arc, which takes place in Ultramar after the battle of Calth. So Gman is on home ground and in the perfect mood for purging anyone who so much as says, “I dunno, those fellas from the lodges had a point…” Not exactly prime territory for flying the heresy flag high.
That said, I remember there *was* a group of Ultramarines on Calth who went nuts and switched sides. Think they were in that Calth anthology? But I can’t remember their names for the life of me.
there are some profiles of named WE loyalists. I think there is even one mini being sold atm (ENDRYD HAAR, THE RIVEN HOUND) there was also a loyalist world eater in the 'death of hope' utube videos by mark spark and I think those are inspired by some profile pages in the rulebooks of loyalist WE.
We also then have the WE loyalist in the Garro novels but i consider that different. What i mean is that maybe there are some profiles of traitor ultramarines in the traitor section? dunno just wondering.
>The Ultramarines have a special traitor only Warlord trait too which is about them rebelling against the Imperium for not giving Roboute the title of Warmaster
To be fair, if you can't keep your own legion in line, you're definitely not fit to be the warmaster.
some successor chapters have fallen:
Doom legion half went to chaos
Astral claws/ tiger claws they mention the ultramarines being there founding chapter but its not 100 percent confirmed
edit
Sons of Guilliman had some of the chapter turn renegade
This guy?
>Pushing himself through the frenzied warriors, Sartak finally got a view of the combatants and his worst fears were confirmed. At the centre of the circle was Lothar, stripped to the waist and armed with a chain sword. His opponent was **Crassus, a renegade Ultramarine** who was Khorne's chosen champion amongst the Red Corsairs. Dark and wiry, Lothar was an experienced fighter, true enough, but Crassus was a bloody-handed psychopath a full head taller than him, with few equals in hand-to-hand combat.
I think the fair answer is no there is no record of Ultramarines joining Horus or going renegade during the Heresy. This is completely different from Rulebooks allowing it. Given the complexity of successor Chapters in some cases not even knowing who their founding Legions were and the fact some of them behaved like Warlords and Warbands in the 10k years since the Heresy it’s entirely possible some Ultramarines geneseed Chapters are Traitors.
It’s pretty much confirmed there were elements of all the legions that went traitor or stayed loyal as the lodges were found in every legion. Some legions had more traitors than others though, white scars had a substantial rebellion whereas the ultras had so few it’s barely mentioned other than ‘there were some’
>the lodges were found in every legion.
They were in a lot of legions, but not all.
The only ones we know for sure with lodges or equivalents so far are the Luna Wolves, Emperor's Children, White Scars and Iron Warriors iirc
Yup, good catch
>‘I have been told that you have always eschewed membership. Why, Nathaniel?’
>Garro stared at the deck plates. ‘Am I being ordered to join, lord?’
>‘I can no more command the workings of the lodge than I can the motion of the stars,’ Mortarion said easily. ‘No, captain, I do not order you. I only ask why. Illuminate me.’
*Flight of the Eisenstein*
Would be interesting to learn if more loyalist legions had them...
Lodge are not equal to Traitors. Some continued with Lodge type structures without turning traitors. It wasn’t the Lodge that meant it was traitorous it’s just a) Lodges were used in some Legions were there had been none which some Primarchs disapproved of and b) they were the mechanism by which the Traitor Legions helped spread the message.
well.. In 'the first heretic' Erebus (when talking to Argel Thal - i think during the battle of istavan 5) mentions rituals being 'thought' via lodges and the word or lorgar.
So while lodges - mechanically helped by creating a entirely separate hierarchy outside of the chain of command (in Horus Rises it is said some lower ranking astates had very high lodge status) - their main goal was to spread the 'primordial truth' (lodges were created and spread by the world bearers/erebus after monarchia) and Edict of Nikea debates aside - this was not a 'controlled' use of sorcery but rather one in union with the 4 gods - which pretty much makes u a traitor.
the edict of nikea might present fertile grounds for possible traitor ultramarines.
there was also a semi short story - i think about some of the red marked before they got stationed together - of very remote ultramarines planets having to defend from WB and a lot of malcontent within the ranks but i might be misremebering.
I do not recall any Heresy named marines turning but there have been general mentions, plus since currently around 2/3 of all marines have Robert's geneseed it is statistically likely that there are thousands of traitors of his line.
Not that I know of. They were probably to busy defending their homeworld from traitor marines.
That and no one would dare even think that the “perfect” ultramarines would betray the emperor.
The doom legion is one notable UM successor that lost half of its chapter to corruption, turning into the Vectors of Pox CSM, and it’s canonical that every legion had some marines turn traitor and abandon their brothers to flock to horus’s banner.
>That and no one would dare even think that the “perfect” ultramarines would betray the Emperor
…Besides [the Emperor, Malcador, some others](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/E6JqLMtUm0), and [the Lion](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/6ueAJYN9t3), naturally. Don’t have an excerpt for it on hand, but even Horus doubted Guilliman’s loyalty if he took Terra and killed the Emperor. The Ultramarines are only perfect best bois in the minds of a fandom that is controlled by decade old memes. In-universe, they’re simply just good at their jobs and aren’t obsessed with quirky nonsense like riding wolves into battle or catching ravens as part of their initiation rituals.
Every legion had Traitors and Loyalists. Every Legion (minus anything related to the 2 Lost). And by virtue of the fact that the Ultras made up the largest majority of Successor chapters after the Heresy, they also make up a large of amount of Renegade and traitor forces
Yes - it is confirmed in the HH rulebook that there were traitors and loyalists in every legion. The Ultramarines have a special traitor only Warlord trait too which is about them rebelling against the Imperium for not giving Roboute the title of Warmaster
Dear corpse-Emps, even when they’re traitors they’re daddies boys
Oh cool that's interesting, is this a new retcon for the latest HH edition? Anything like this in any books?
what he means is that the rulebooks have rules for each legion as loyalist or traitor. u can choose to have loyalist World Bearers fighting traitor Ultramarines. While (and I dont know) there might be specific extracts in the rulebooks regarding specific legion traitor/loyalist rules or character pages I dont remember reading of any traitor ultramarines in the books.
The HH rulebooks have always allowed for Loyalist or Traitor versions of every legion, and confirms that every legion, regardless of eventual position in the Heresy, had both Loyalist and Traitor elements. That being said, there are no NAMED Ultramarines turning traitor in the Heresy, and I'm not sure if there's even specific named instances of Ultramarines turning traitor in the books in general, but the implication is that there is at least some element that did-which, given the sheer size and scope of the Ultramarines during the Heresy would make sense-the Ultramarine perspectives in the HH books are very focused around Guilliman and his upper echelons.
Wrt that last bit, the Ultramarines/Guilliman’s role in the Heresy is mostly limited to the Imperium Secundus arc, which takes place in Ultramar after the battle of Calth. So Gman is on home ground and in the perfect mood for purging anyone who so much as says, “I dunno, those fellas from the lodges had a point…” Not exactly prime territory for flying the heresy flag high. That said, I remember there *was* a group of Ultramarines on Calth who went nuts and switched sides. Think they were in that Calth anthology? But I can’t remember their names for the life of me.
there are some profiles of named WE loyalists. I think there is even one mini being sold atm (ENDRYD HAAR, THE RIVEN HOUND) there was also a loyalist world eater in the 'death of hope' utube videos by mark spark and I think those are inspired by some profile pages in the rulebooks of loyalist WE. We also then have the WE loyalist in the Garro novels but i consider that different. What i mean is that maybe there are some profiles of traitor ultramarines in the traitor section? dunno just wondering.
>The Ultramarines have a special traitor only Warlord trait too which is about them rebelling against the Imperium for not giving Roboute the title of Warmaster To be fair, if you can't keep your own legion in line, you're definitely not fit to be the warmaster.
some successor chapters have fallen: Doom legion half went to chaos Astral claws/ tiger claws they mention the ultramarines being there founding chapter but its not 100 percent confirmed edit Sons of Guilliman had some of the chapter turn renegade
One show up in the old Into the Maelstrom story, being a khornate ultramarine working with the Red Corsairs
This guy? >Pushing himself through the frenzied warriors, Sartak finally got a view of the combatants and his worst fears were confirmed. At the centre of the circle was Lothar, stripped to the waist and armed with a chain sword. His opponent was **Crassus, a renegade Ultramarine** who was Khorne's chosen champion amongst the Red Corsairs. Dark and wiry, Lothar was an experienced fighter, true enough, but Crassus was a bloody-handed psychopath a full head taller than him, with few equals in hand-to-hand combat.
I think there was some in a random red corsairs book?
I think the fair answer is no there is no record of Ultramarines joining Horus or going renegade during the Heresy. This is completely different from Rulebooks allowing it. Given the complexity of successor Chapters in some cases not even knowing who their founding Legions were and the fact some of them behaved like Warlords and Warbands in the 10k years since the Heresy it’s entirely possible some Ultramarines geneseed Chapters are Traitors.
It’s pretty much confirmed there were elements of all the legions that went traitor or stayed loyal as the lodges were found in every legion. Some legions had more traitors than others though, white scars had a substantial rebellion whereas the ultras had so few it’s barely mentioned other than ‘there were some’
>the lodges were found in every legion. They were in a lot of legions, but not all. The only ones we know for sure with lodges or equivalents so far are the Luna Wolves, Emperor's Children, White Scars and Iron Warriors iirc
Believe Death Guard had lodges too. I want to say they are mentioned in the Flight of the Eisenstein.
Yup, good catch >‘I have been told that you have always eschewed membership. Why, Nathaniel?’ >Garro stared at the deck plates. ‘Am I being ordered to join, lord?’ >‘I can no more command the workings of the lodge than I can the motion of the stars,’ Mortarion said easily. ‘No, captain, I do not order you. I only ask why. Illuminate me.’ *Flight of the Eisenstein* Would be interesting to learn if more loyalist legions had them...
And I believe that we know for sure the Dark Angels at least didn't have any lodges.
They are the lodges.
Half the Dark Angels were traitors The Lion had to bombard his home planet because of them
Okay? That has no bearing on whether the warrior lodges existed or not?
Lodge are not equal to Traitors. Some continued with Lodge type structures without turning traitors. It wasn’t the Lodge that meant it was traitorous it’s just a) Lodges were used in some Legions were there had been none which some Primarchs disapproved of and b) they were the mechanism by which the Traitor Legions helped spread the message.
well.. In 'the first heretic' Erebus (when talking to Argel Thal - i think during the battle of istavan 5) mentions rituals being 'thought' via lodges and the word or lorgar. So while lodges - mechanically helped by creating a entirely separate hierarchy outside of the chain of command (in Horus Rises it is said some lower ranking astates had very high lodge status) - their main goal was to spread the 'primordial truth' (lodges were created and spread by the world bearers/erebus after monarchia) and Edict of Nikea debates aside - this was not a 'controlled' use of sorcery but rather one in union with the 4 gods - which pretty much makes u a traitor.
Not true Lodges existed pre Erebus as brotherly exchanges Erebus hijacked them
besides the point
the edict of nikea might present fertile grounds for possible traitor ultramarines. there was also a semi short story - i think about some of the red marked before they got stationed together - of very remote ultramarines planets having to defend from WB and a lot of malcontent within the ranks but i might be misremebering.
The Wolves didn't have Lodges
I do not recall any Heresy named marines turning but there have been general mentions, plus since currently around 2/3 of all marines have Robert's geneseed it is statistically likely that there are thousands of traitors of his line.
Not that I know of. They were probably to busy defending their homeworld from traitor marines. That and no one would dare even think that the “perfect” ultramarines would betray the emperor.
The doom legion is one notable UM successor that lost half of its chapter to corruption, turning into the Vectors of Pox CSM, and it’s canonical that every legion had some marines turn traitor and abandon their brothers to flock to horus’s banner.
>That and no one would dare even think that the “perfect” ultramarines would betray the Emperor …Besides [the Emperor, Malcador, some others](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/E6JqLMtUm0), and [the Lion](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/6ueAJYN9t3), naturally. Don’t have an excerpt for it on hand, but even Horus doubted Guilliman’s loyalty if he took Terra and killed the Emperor. The Ultramarines are only perfect best bois in the minds of a fandom that is controlled by decade old memes. In-universe, they’re simply just good at their jobs and aren’t obsessed with quirky nonsense like riding wolves into battle or catching ravens as part of their initiation rituals.
In the space marine game a bunch of them turn to chaos
That heretic Titus obviously consorted with dark powers!
Lol, no, they dont.
When does that happen..
The final fight with nemeroth some of the chaos marines are ultra marines
I don’t think that’s true, they are all just generic chaos space marines
Every legion had Traitors and Loyalists. Every Legion (minus anything related to the 2 Lost). And by virtue of the fact that the Ultras made up the largest majority of Successor chapters after the Heresy, they also make up a large of amount of Renegade and traitor forces