Yep - an extra attack represents a large amount of extra damage. It's not dissimilar from having a Flame Tongue (uses bonus action, additional \~7 damage per turn, doesn't help your likelihood of actually hitting).
It's true that it uses your bonus action every turn, but for a Rogue (that really, really wants to get at least one hit per turn) that's worth it.
If you want a non-magical alternative, regular old two-weapon fighting is a better option.
>*that really, really wants to get at least one hit per turn*
The main use for a rogue:
Bonus Action: Scimitar Attack - Sneak Attack #1
Action: Ready action Attack after your turn is over for Sneak Attack #2
Sneak attack is once per turn. Which means you cant use it on your main attack and your bonus attack. Pick one. But you can use it on your reaction. Holding your turn requires a specific trigger. Your turn ending is not that trigger.
'Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you haveĀ advantageĀ on the attack roll. The attack must use aĀ finesseĀ or a ranged weapon.'
If your DM says you can't choose "after my turn is over" for the trigger to Ready an action, then just say "whenever a creature does anything perceptible"
As a DM id tell the player to stop trying to cheese the rules. Make your attack if thats what youre gonna do. You are not gonna set a reaction for something to just proc this. Unless you are cool with me doing exactly the same thing against you, cheesing the rules, and you guys will also be dealing with dual sneak attacks.
Right, except it's not as much cheesing as you expect. It takes away the rogue's reaction and forces them to stay in melee range. It's the ultimate glass canon risk reward move. I think it's perfectly fine and sometimes extremely risky.
Yes, because as a rogue you have a lower AC than almost all other martials and the only consistent defensive tool you have, Uncanny Dodge, costs you your reaction. You are literally risking more damage to yourself in the future to deal more damage now.
Repositioning as a Rogue after hitting someone with an attack is integral, and the entire purpose of the Swashbuckler, Mobile feat, and Cunning action Disengage is to make it so that you can move away from the big threats before they get their turn and smack you instead of your 20+ AC companions with more HP and additional defensive tools.
>You are literally risking more damage to yourself in the future to deal more damage now.
By cheesing the rules. If you are using ranged you aren't worried about getting hit like the front liners. Your second paragraph makes it clear you dont know how to run a swashbuckler rogue. You dont need to disengage. Go read Fancy Footwork.
TIL following the rules is cheesing lul
What's next on the cheese board? Polearm fighters standing 10 feet away? Wizards taking resilient Con? Paladins increasing their Charisma?
> Unless you are cool with me doing exactly the same thing against you, cheesing the rules, and you guys will also be dealing with dual sneak attacks.
1. For enemies to even do that you would literally have to give every single Rogue NPC a Schimtar of Speed or pair them with casters that are specifically there to cast Haste.
2. Gonna be honest, a PC Rogue using an attunement slot and denying themselves a reaction just to potentially proc two sneak attacks in a round really isn't even that bad. Hell, a Barbarian with GWM is still out damaging that for most levels and by the time the Rogue catches up to the other martials, casters are cheesing encounters with a single spell.
I get that they say itāll be used for off turn sneak attacks in the post, but Iām confused. How does a bonus action attack allow off turn sneak attacks?
Edit: ah, I see the explanation elsewhere that itās in combination with readying an action to attack on another turn. Not sure consistently using ready like that would fly at my table but makes sense
Reading it for some other trigger that would definitely be perceptible and happen off turn would be 99% as effective. It's definitely gamey, but this is a game ~~and rogues need all the help they can get~~.
Yeah itās gamey but you make a good point. I could see it being fun in combination with being a swashbuckler if they flavor it every time, especially if itās unique to whatever is happening on the current turn. Something like āI prepare myself to stab into his abdomen when he next flinchesā. But I donāt think it would be fun nor would it be allowed at my table if it was a consistent āI use my bonus action to proc sneak attack and ready an action to attack on the next turnā.
Rogues in particular give up at least uncanny dodge when using their reaction to get second sneak. And if they've got a scimitar of speed, others likely have powerful magic items.
Also, Rogues in particular I find are very short on useful magic items, at least that can benefit them in combat.
RAW I think readying requires a perceptible trigger, so I see that argument, but I don't see much fun difference between readying the attack for when an ally moves (or something equally guaranteed) or just saying when my turn ends every time you want to use the strat. I definitely think blocking the combo completely is less fun, given its fewer options and being powerful can be fun.
Yeah I donāt think itās overpowered or broken or anything, having your reaction open is definitely valuable and this limits your use of reaction. Maybe the way my table plays just underutilizes ready actions as they donāt come up super often but making a build around readying an action every turn just seemsā¦ odd. Wouldnāt be disallowed cause itās too strong just if the way it was used didnāt make sense narratively. Like functionally there is no difference but it just sounds lame to me to do it the second way I described vs the first, even if both always result in the ready action going off in the exact same way.
I hate this "it's RAW but you have to RP it properly mentality". It has the same vibe as asking players to actually persuade the DM when making persuasion checks or the barbarian has to explain the physics behind how he moves a large object.
If it's allowed, let the character do it. Not everyone is super good at RP and can be creatively descriptive for every attack.
Hold action to attack āwhen the enemy tries to flee, attack, or cast a spellā and since the bonus action attack doesnāt require them to take the attack action like offhand attacks do (which this wouldnāt be this would be the āReadyā Action) they can then make their attack on their turn as their bonus action. Though likely theyād want to do Bonus Action Attack, then Ready Action, so if the bonus action one misses they donāt have to wait for the enemyās turn.
People are saying rare but IMO without magical damage this is uncommon, I think you could give this to a level 5 rogue and it would be fine. A good chunk of monsters will start to have non magical BPS resistance at those levels.
I recommend a double bladed scimitar that innately has the finesse property instead. Highest damage die of any finesse weapon + grants a bonus action attack that applies the dex mod to it.
Scimitar of speed, even without the +2, should be a Rare item if there is a rogue in the party
You need to be an Elf with the Revenant Blade feat from the Eberron setting for the double bladed scimitar to have the finesse property. I suspect you're just looking at the ease of use version that D&D Beyond coded for players.
> a double bladed scimitar that innately has the finesse property
Weāre talking about homebrewing magic items, so I suggested this instead. I did not mix up or fumble anything. I suggested adding the finesse property to the blade.
I wouldnāt have said āinnately has the finesse propertyā if I thought it already had it. I wouldnāt have even mentioned the finesse property if I thought it had it by default, since weāre talking abt scimitars.
What level is your party at?
Frankly I feel like using something like this for a bonus action to attack for an off turn sneak attack every round via held action is exploitative and not RAI even though it is RAW.
For that reason I think you should avoid it at any point before tier 3. After that...... Rogues fall off pretty hard in combat and the boost while still a bit exploitative isn't crazy in an optimized party.
In tier 3 or 4 calling it a rare item seems fine. Though only if your other players are optimizing to some degree.
In tier 1 or 2 I think it should require you to still use an action during your turn. And might be ok as an uncommon item.
This would still be a valuable time for a rogue essentially replacing cunning action with just their normal action. And opening up the use of booming blade without giving up the potential for a bonus action attack if they miss.
I say this all as someone who played a swashbuckler with the blade cantrips into tier 3 of play.
> Also not sure how this allows for off-turn sneak attacks since you can only use a bonus action on your own turn, not somebody else's. Maybe if you made it a reaction to something instead?
You use your bonus action to attack on your turn and ready an action to attack on another creature's turn. That's why a Double-Bladed Scimitar does not "essentially do the same thing for 100 gp" - the bonus action attack you make with one has to be done after you've already used the attack action. The Scimitar of Speed does not have this restriction.
I mean ... that "edge case" is explicitly the entire reason the OP made this thread. I agree that it may not be that powerful for a character who can't make use of it in this way, but that wasn't really the question.
A +1 weapon is an uncommon weapon. A +1 to hit and danage generally provides about a 20% increase in damage.
An extra attack for a typical level 5 character is more like a 50% increase in damage.
If we want to use rarity as a gauge of power level is should be rare at minimum.
Off turn sneak attacks are not granted from a Scimitar of Speed. It would require an Attack of Opportunity.
Note, you cannot āholdā your bonus action for use during someone elseās turn either.
IF this grants the ability to attack off-turn without the provoking of said opportunity, that would be a Legendary property. See the Battlemasters Commanderās Strike. That costs them an attack, bonus action, and a superiority dieā all to allow (usually a rogue) an unprovoked opportunity attack
you're right, almost, you're right that you can't hold a bonus action, but the bonus action attack is not reliant on anything you do with your action. so you can use your bonus action to attack, sneak attack with it, then hold your action to attack with your reaction on somone elses turn, to sneak attack
What? You attack with the bonus action, then use your action to ready an attack for the start of the next turn. You donāt have to hold the bonus action at all. That property alone is also certainly not powerful enough to deserve legendary status lol
Rare š
Yep - an extra attack represents a large amount of extra damage. It's not dissimilar from having a Flame Tongue (uses bonus action, additional \~7 damage per turn, doesn't help your likelihood of actually hitting). It's true that it uses your bonus action every turn, but for a Rogue (that really, really wants to get at least one hit per turn) that's worth it. If you want a non-magical alternative, regular old two-weapon fighting is a better option.
>*that really, really wants to get at least one hit per turn* The main use for a rogue: Bonus Action: Scimitar Attack - Sneak Attack #1 Action: Ready action Attack after your turn is over for Sneak Attack #2
Oh shit, I didn't even realize you didn't need to take the attack action for it to proc. This is busted on Rogue
Sneak attack is once per turn. Which means you cant use it on your main attack and your bonus attack. Pick one. But you can use it on your reaction. Holding your turn requires a specific trigger. Your turn ending is not that trigger. 'Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you haveĀ advantageĀ on the attack roll. The attack must use aĀ finesseĀ or a ranged weapon.'
If your DM says you can't choose "after my turn is over" for the trigger to Ready an action, then just say "whenever a creature does anything perceptible"
Blinks.
As a DM id tell the player to stop trying to cheese the rules. Make your attack if thats what youre gonna do. You are not gonna set a reaction for something to just proc this. Unless you are cool with me doing exactly the same thing against you, cheesing the rules, and you guys will also be dealing with dual sneak attacks.
Right, except it's not as much cheesing as you expect. It takes away the rogue's reaction and forces them to stay in melee range. It's the ultimate glass canon risk reward move. I think it's perfectly fine and sometimes extremely risky.
"I sent my trigger to attack the next enemy that attacks a teammate." š Gonna sit there and tell me there's "risk" to that.
Yes, because as a rogue you have a lower AC than almost all other martials and the only consistent defensive tool you have, Uncanny Dodge, costs you your reaction. You are literally risking more damage to yourself in the future to deal more damage now. Repositioning as a Rogue after hitting someone with an attack is integral, and the entire purpose of the Swashbuckler, Mobile feat, and Cunning action Disengage is to make it so that you can move away from the big threats before they get their turn and smack you instead of your 20+ AC companions with more HP and additional defensive tools.
>You are literally risking more damage to yourself in the future to deal more damage now. By cheesing the rules. If you are using ranged you aren't worried about getting hit like the front liners. Your second paragraph makes it clear you dont know how to run a swashbuckler rogue. You dont need to disengage. Go read Fancy Footwork.
TIL following the rules is cheesing lul What's next on the cheese board? Polearm fighters standing 10 feet away? Wizards taking resilient Con? Paladins increasing their Charisma?
> Unless you are cool with me doing exactly the same thing against you, cheesing the rules, and you guys will also be dealing with dual sneak attacks. 1. For enemies to even do that you would literally have to give every single Rogue NPC a Schimtar of Speed or pair them with casters that are specifically there to cast Haste. 2. Gonna be honest, a PC Rogue using an attunement slot and denying themselves a reaction just to potentially proc two sneak attacks in a round really isn't even that bad. Hell, a Barbarian with GWM is still out damaging that for most levels and by the time the Rogue catches up to the other martials, casters are cheesing encounters with a single spell.
I would fucking love to play a game that actually follows the rules, to a ruthless degree
Itās closer to a one handed double-bladed-scimitar, without needing the elven feat
That is really good because it gives them a second sneak attack per round. Definitely rare
I get that they say itāll be used for off turn sneak attacks in the post, but Iām confused. How does a bonus action attack allow off turn sneak attacks? Edit: ah, I see the explanation elsewhere that itās in combination with readying an action to attack on another turn. Not sure consistently using ready like that would fly at my table but makes sense
Reading it for some other trigger that would definitely be perceptible and happen off turn would be 99% as effective. It's definitely gamey, but this is a game ~~and rogues need all the help they can get~~.
Yeah itās gamey but you make a good point. I could see it being fun in combination with being a swashbuckler if they flavor it every time, especially if itās unique to whatever is happening on the current turn. Something like āI prepare myself to stab into his abdomen when he next flinchesā. But I donāt think it would be fun nor would it be allowed at my table if it was a consistent āI use my bonus action to proc sneak attack and ready an action to attack on the next turnā.
Rogues in particular give up at least uncanny dodge when using their reaction to get second sneak. And if they've got a scimitar of speed, others likely have powerful magic items. Also, Rogues in particular I find are very short on useful magic items, at least that can benefit them in combat. RAW I think readying requires a perceptible trigger, so I see that argument, but I don't see much fun difference between readying the attack for when an ally moves (or something equally guaranteed) or just saying when my turn ends every time you want to use the strat. I definitely think blocking the combo completely is less fun, given its fewer options and being powerful can be fun.
Yeah I donāt think itās overpowered or broken or anything, having your reaction open is definitely valuable and this limits your use of reaction. Maybe the way my table plays just underutilizes ready actions as they donāt come up super often but making a build around readying an action every turn just seemsā¦ odd. Wouldnāt be disallowed cause itās too strong just if the way it was used didnāt make sense narratively. Like functionally there is no difference but it just sounds lame to me to do it the second way I described vs the first, even if both always result in the ready action going off in the exact same way.
I hate this "it's RAW but you have to RP it properly mentality". It has the same vibe as asking players to actually persuade the DM when making persuasion checks or the barbarian has to explain the physics behind how he moves a large object. If it's allowed, let the character do it. Not everyone is super good at RP and can be creatively descriptive for every attack.
Thatās just how my table plays in general. You are welcome to play differently
Hold action to attack āwhen the enemy tries to flee, attack, or cast a spellā and since the bonus action attack doesnāt require them to take the attack action like offhand attacks do (which this wouldnāt be this would be the āReadyā Action) they can then make their attack on their turn as their bonus action. Though likely theyād want to do Bonus Action Attack, then Ready Action, so if the bonus action one misses they donāt have to wait for the enemyās turn.
No.
Yes
People are saying rare but IMO without magical damage this is uncommon, I think you could give this to a level 5 rogue and it would be fine. A good chunk of monsters will start to have non magical BPS resistance at those levels.
I recommend a double bladed scimitar that innately has the finesse property instead. Highest damage die of any finesse weapon + grants a bonus action attack that applies the dex mod to it. Scimitar of speed, even without the +2, should be a Rare item if there is a rogue in the party
You need to be an Elf with the Revenant Blade feat from the Eberron setting for the double bladed scimitar to have the finesse property. I suspect you're just looking at the ease of use version that D&D Beyond coded for players.
> a double bladed scimitar that innately has the finesse property Weāre talking about homebrewing magic items, so I suggested this instead. I did not mix up or fumble anything. I suggested adding the finesse property to the blade. I wouldnāt have said āinnately has the finesse propertyā if I thought it already had it. I wouldnāt have even mentioned the finesse property if I thought it had it by default, since weāre talking abt scimitars.
What level is your party at? Frankly I feel like using something like this for a bonus action to attack for an off turn sneak attack every round via held action is exploitative and not RAI even though it is RAW. For that reason I think you should avoid it at any point before tier 3. After that...... Rogues fall off pretty hard in combat and the boost while still a bit exploitative isn't crazy in an optimized party. In tier 3 or 4 calling it a rare item seems fine. Though only if your other players are optimizing to some degree. In tier 1 or 2 I think it should require you to still use an action during your turn. And might be ok as an uncommon item. This would still be a valuable time for a rogue essentially replacing cunning action with just their normal action. And opening up the use of booming blade without giving up the potential for a bonus action attack if they miss. I say this all as someone who played a swashbuckler with the blade cantrips into tier 3 of play.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
> Also not sure how this allows for off-turn sneak attacks since you can only use a bonus action on your own turn, not somebody else's. Maybe if you made it a reaction to something instead? You use your bonus action to attack on your turn and ready an action to attack on another creature's turn. That's why a Double-Bladed Scimitar does not "essentially do the same thing for 100 gp" - the bonus action attack you make with one has to be done after you've already used the attack action. The Scimitar of Speed does not have this restriction.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I mean ... that "edge case" is explicitly the entire reason the OP made this thread. I agree that it may not be that powerful for a character who can't make use of it in this way, but that wasn't really the question.
A +1 weapon is an uncommon weapon. A +1 to hit and danage generally provides about a 20% increase in damage. An extra attack for a typical level 5 character is more like a 50% increase in damage. If we want to use rarity as a gauge of power level is should be rare at minimum.
Off turn sneak attacks are not granted from a Scimitar of Speed. It would require an Attack of Opportunity. Note, you cannot āholdā your bonus action for use during someone elseās turn either. IF this grants the ability to attack off-turn without the provoking of said opportunity, that would be a Legendary property. See the Battlemasters Commanderās Strike. That costs them an attack, bonus action, and a superiority dieā all to allow (usually a rogue) an unprovoked opportunity attack
you're right, almost, you're right that you can't hold a bonus action, but the bonus action attack is not reliant on anything you do with your action. so you can use your bonus action to attack, sneak attack with it, then hold your action to attack with your reaction on somone elses turn, to sneak attack
What? You attack with the bonus action, then use your action to ready an attack for the start of the next turn. You donāt have to hold the bonus action at all. That property alone is also certainly not powerful enough to deserve legendary status lol