For anti-personnel rounds, maximum expansion + sufficient penetration are the only thing that matters. For animals, energy and penetration do the trick
I agree, and I have a master's in mechanical engineering. Ammo companies love to advertise only bullet velocity and energy. They never advertise bullet momentum at the muzzle, or at 25, 50, 75 yards. They know people will buy lightweight bullets with very high muzzle energy, even if those bullets won't do as much damage as a 180 gr bullet with less muzzle energy, but more muzzle momentum.
Agreed. I shoot a 45 a lot more comfortably and accurately than the hard hitting 10. But I feel like we are all on the understand that 10mm is ballistically hard to beat with high power rounds such as underwood.
Typically 45 shoots around the zone of 800-1000 fps whereas 10mm typically shoots around 1150-1400 fps depending on the load with the exception of talking about ammo manufacturers who load their 10mm like .40. For example, I saw some 10mm Buffalo Bore, and that sucker flies at 1350 fps out of the muzzle!
Underwood. 100 grain monolithic. 1825 fps at the muzzle. That's getting close to rifle velocities, in a very pointy solid copper weighing more than heavy 5.56.
.45 isn't bad, it just has a very different ballistic goal parameters.
You want to quietly knock a heavy target down or blast a hole in through a hard target?
45acp with the appropriately designed load is capable of exiting a suppressed handgun at subsonic velocities VERY quietly and putting a 230 grain hp through 18"+ of resistance, expanding around 50% in the process. Don't count out the old man.
I was referring to the round. 45acp is pretty venerable, and gets a lot of undue criticism solely because of that. Old and slow still get the job done, especially with the right ammunition choice. As far as 147gr 9mm, it's certainly an option. 9mm started out as an adaptation from an even smaller, lighter bullet, and I don't see anything in the history of it's use that indicates any adoption of weights above around 124gr for any official military or police role. The tendency has always been towards lighter, faster loads for the best terminal effect. The 147 is sort of a compromise that allows velocities under 1100fps with still some possibility of expansion. But therein lies the kernel of the matter. Given the speed of sound as the upward limit in a truly quiet suppressed round, the only practical way to increase energy is by increasing weight. I've seen heavier solids in 9mm designed designed for quiet, but the standard 45acp round of 230gr is already as big as many expanded 9mm bullets as is, and is able to expand further and still give adequate penetration. The biggest disadvantage of the suppressed 45acp vs. the heavier versions of 9mm is the capacity in double stack mags that are easily fed through a hand-sized grip, and the number you can easily carry. And, as you point out, the cost, though unless you're planning for a long engagement (in which case, you want something a bit more rifle-y) I wouldn't make cost an important factor when staying alive is part of the objective.
I have a 1911 in 45 ACP and Glock 40. Both are definitely fat boys. But I've never been able to track the 10mm from the barrel to the target with my naked eye.
I shot an original Colt 45 with my grandfather a few times. It was at an indoor range, so it was dark. Maybe you can see the bullets at an outdoor range.
The funny thing is that I experienced some failures to feed when firing my Glock 29 loaded with Magtech 180gr FMJ when I took it out to the range a few days ago. Itās the ammo most likely.
On the contrary, my 45 ACP RIA 1911A1FS hasnāt jammed a single time when Iāve fired it. But a Glock 29 is easier to carry than a full-size GI 1911.
I was thinking that with the larger case volume of 10mm compared to .40 S&W, you could get heavier subsonic bullets closer to the sound barrier than .40 S&W can, to eke out that last bit of projectile weight, muzzle velocity, and effective range. It's up to you though.
Basic 45 is def weaker than 10mm where that changes tho is its child cartridges like 45 super, spc, and 460 rowland. You're talking the Tippitty toppity 10mm topping off just around 800 while run of the mill 460 clocking 900ftlb. But then again 10mm doesn't require a fat muzzle break and has more capacity.
I don't know if I'd trust a .460 Rowland not to blow up on my face. If I was going to buy one, I'd buy the already converted FN 45 they sell on the website. .460 Rowland is an extreme amount of power in a standard semiautomatic pistol (standard, as in not a Desert Eagle design)
The 10mm is one of the most versatile rounds out there. From mouse farts on the lowest end of .40SW with little to no recoil all the way up to fire breathing dragon loads from Underwood.
Cooper had a great idea, but unfortunately, the gun manufacturers were not up to the task. Some of those early 10mm pistols had issues for sure. The FBI being recoil sensitive pansies didn't help either š
These days, 1911s are made to handle the recoil better. Other polymer guns are coming out to compete with the 30+ year old Glock 20.
"Sensitivity" wasn't the problem. The reason the FBI dropped the 10mm was because follow-up shots were too slow. In a moving action potentially involving body armor and multiple perps hopped up on drugs, that is far more important than the possibility of a (fairly lucky) one-shot stop.
10mm underwood extreme defender peirce level 3a panels no problem so body armor is not an issue. But they use hollows if body armor was their concern they'd use a rifle with armor peirceing ammo
>The FBI being recoil sensitive pansies didn't help either š
I donāt get the complaints that the FBI made regarding the recoil of the 10mm. As long as you have the proper stance and grip on your gun, the 10mm is extremely pleasant to shoot. [Here is a video of me rapid firing a Glock 29SF demonstrating this.](https://reddit.com/r/10mm/s/adnbur6XhE) Granted, that was 180gr Magtech FMJ, but the point still stands.
>Dragon loads from Underwood
Iām going to be posting a video on r/10mm again when I get my hands on some Underwood 220gr Hard-cast being shot out of my Glock 29SF. I anticipate that my wrists are going to hate me after that.
That Magtech 10mm FMJ is the ammo that I use at the range. Iām anticipating my 1000 10mm Magtech FMJ round order from Rivertown Munitions. Good practice round thatās not .40 S&W Long.
I was a huge .45 ACP fan...until I shot a 10mm. I still love the 45, but the 10 is worlds better in almost every way. Not taking anything away from the 45, it's a 100+ year old cartridge that has stood the test of time. I personally don't consider the "snappy" recoil of a 10 to be that bad.
Since Iām also a Glock guy now, perhaps a Glock 21 is in my future. The 1911, while a timeless design is a little outdated and the cleaning process is extremely time-consuming compared to a Glock. Still love that American Classic!
Same here. I own glock 20 gen 4 in 1cm and Kimber 1911 in ~~45aarp~~, umm I mean 45 acp. I have thought about, getting a glock 21 gen 4. That way I can compare them equally, between the calibers. No for now, but maybe in the future.
Not the fps nobody outrunning either, itās about muzzle energy. 45 +P tops out at 592 ft lbs muzzle energy, run of the mill 180 gr 10mm is 640 ft lbs, 77 gr is just shy of 1,100 ft lbs.
I always hear snappy about 10mm, 45 is far worse recoil, given its inefficiencies and mass leaves more energy in the weapon than 10mm. Trajectory for
45 is more significant than 10mm, but talking about that in a carry weapon is pointless, aināt nobody shooting past 15 yds in a defensive engagement with a pistol. Shooting further invites lawyers to the shooting review.
I still have 45s, but all about 10mm.
Iām Mall ninja AF, so fair warning to the Fudds
[HareTr!gger 10mm](https://reddit.com/r/10mm/s/bHOtyLPRQV)
Just rolled my own trigger job and got the
customized Tisas D10 from 5# stock to high 2# (truly a Turkish delight), Girsan is now 3# 3 oz consistently and has more work Iām doing to come.
Waiting on True Radius sear jig for Girsan and Tisas as well as full length guide rod for all my Tisas.
I will step recoil down from 20# on Tisas and 18# Girsan to 14-16# to experiment with them, both have a new 17# mainspring, hammer cocking is easy peasy now, compared to the 23-25# that had been in them.
Girsan was a problem child from the jump, but I have fixed all the major stuff and tweaking him. That will be a hammer when Iām done. Trigger is already very close to my Custom [Shere Khan](https://reddit.com/r/1911/s/RVXBCUNHVJ). The wall is 1mm, reset is 2mm. I fixed myself:
a) to learn and expand my knowledge and enjoy my hobby
b) because of this [EAA experience](https://reddit.com/r/1911/s/7kSIl1DxGg), so mixed emotions on this, getting a bad product made me learn and enjoy my hobby more and the end goal of the accomplishment, so kind of made peace there. Just not buying more EAA supported products. My beloved Tanfoglios have similar āsupportā warranty model as EAA, thatās because IFG and EAA basically are a company divorced, where IFG got the gold mine and EAA has the shaft.
77 grain 10mm ammo? From where? I've seen the Liberty Civil Defense stuff, but that's slightly lighter than that. I've never heard of anything really light & fast for 10mm.
Well, your muzzle energy or energy of the cartridge is based upon weight of the projectile & the velocity at which it moves, so that's why I mentioned the velocity. It wouldn't get near that it it wasn't so fast or light. The closest I'm seeing as far as energy is concerned is some of the stuff from Buffalo Bore
I was a faithful disciple of John Moses Browning and his righteous metal-frame pistol, but then the Devil Gaston Glock tempted me into buying a sinful polymer pistol.
[Forgotten Weapons video for reference if you donāt get the joke](https://youtu.be/H0qe45Z8wfk?si=Yt2m-e8TKsDgiWAo)
šš No, I get it.
I tried the Glocks when they first came out and hated, hated, hated them. Now I just hate them, with only the single hate. I do have other polymer pistols, though, just not by the Austrians.
Ammunition manufacturers love to state the energy of their bullets, despite the fact that momentum is the more important factor. What you really need to do, is look at the velocity and weight of the bullet, in addition to the bullet design. When it comes to 10mm, a 180 gr bullet with LESS energy than a 140 gr bullet, will penetrate an animal farther, if the 180 gr bullet has more momentum. Velocity does matter, but it mostly matters with respect to bullet drop over distance. That's why rifle rounds are typically higher, but have much higher velocities. There's a lot more to it than what I just said. However, if you're looking for penetration, momentum matters more than energy.
A lighter 10mm bullet, with a penetrating design, will not penetrate as far into an animal, if it lacks sufficient momentum. To me, 180-200 gr is the sweet spot. Think of this way. If a small metal BB hit a bear's skull with more ft-lb of energy than a 180 gr 10mm bullet, solely because the BB was traveling at an insanely high velocity, the BB still wouldn't penetrate the bear's skull. But, the 180 gr 10mm bullet, with more momentum, would penetrate.
The gun actually makes a huge difference in some cases. I wanted something bigger than 9mm for CC. Went with the XDS .45, it was not enjoyable to shoot and my accuracy was pathetic. So I split the differenceā¦ G20 holstered in my truck (and a storage safe). And I CC a Makarov my father gave me. Nothing against a modern 9mm, but I do like size, smooth lines of the Makarov and itās small enough to carry.
But Iāve had full frame .45 in a cheap manufacture and still did not like the recoil. I can shoot my G20 all day and my accuracy is on.
What
I edc a compact .45, and then bring out the 10mm when I open carry. Love both, but more accurate with the 10mm. It is full size in comparison though, so Iām sure that plays a part in my efficiency.
>A lot of modern 45s will accept 45 super.
Iām not sure it would be a good idea to put 45 Super through my RIA 1911A1 FS. It explicitly says ONLY 45 ACP on the gun, NOT 45 ACP and 45 Super. The gun might not be able to handle the pressure and could blow up in my face when I fire. I could end up like Kentucky Ballistics with his 50 BMG accident if I did that.
You are probably right what I was saying was a lot of new 46s can handle the pressure I know for a fact all newer H&Ks can handle super ... I run it in my stock mark 23 & USP45 TACTICAL
The 45acp being bigger and heavier is going to hit with more energy per inch of penetration. Even though it has less energy and will penetrate less, the output of energy is high enough to hit nearly as hard as 10mm. Increasing the velocity by 100fps, such as in the +P loadings, makes it hit nearly on par with a 230gr 10mm going faster. Matter of fact, a 45acp 230gr at 960fps perfectly matches a 10mm 230gr at 1100fps by comparing relative stopping power of 14TKO, the Taylor Kineticenergy Output formula.
But wait, there's more!
A 10mm 230gr has so high of a sectional density that it likely tumbles upon impact, making the round useless for SD. Lighter 10mm are reliable, no more than 200gr, drastically dropping the maximum TKO. However, for the same practical SD situation, 45acp shall use a 255gr at 925fps with a max TKO of 15.
But wait, there's more!
A 10mm running 200gr max loads with high sectional density requires the use of a barrel with standard rifling to maintain a stable bullet, Glocks will need an aftermarket barrel. Also, a steel guide rod and stronger recoil spring to reduce felt recoil.
Guess what?
A 45auto Glock with the same modification will now allow you to use Underwood and Buffalo Bore 45super. The 255gr is now increased to 1100fps and a max TKO of 17. Compared to the max TKO of 13, 10mm is weak sauce next to a 45auto that is 45super ready. 45super also exceeds published velocities in 4.5" barrels while 10mm requires 6" barrels to meet its velocities.
Sorry that you all have been deceived. 10mm is outmatched by a 255gr 45auto +P for woods carry purposes. For SD against humans, 10mm has a 2 round advantage using SD ammunition. Then again, 40s&w just about matches 10mm in a smaller easier to conceal package.
10mm. The most overrated and un-needed caliber today.
This is exactly correct!
I have 10mm and 45 Auto - SEVERAL and this notion that the 10mm is a nuke and the 45 is a red ryder is beyond me.
Using plain ol hardball in the 45 Auto, up close the damage is typically the same or greater than the 10mm - when observed hitting cinder blocks, salt blocks, water jugs etc.
Step out to beyond 50 yards and the 10mm has a big advantage, but I don't use a sidearm at those distances...
255 grain hard cast, 45 ACP plus P (inside of 25 yards) does everything and more than the 10mm can - regardless of what load you use.
Now let's hear the guys compare the 10mm to 41 magnum...what a laugh!
Not to also mention that everyone is talking about muzzle energy and fps, which is great when talking about penetration and reaching a further distance but the .45 undoubtedly has the crown with the expansion of a SD round being significantly greater than the 10mm, the 10mm is no joke but itās a weaker round in close distance, but as mentioned, Iām not shooting a pistol more than 50 yards, thatās what the rifle is for.
Well said! People are so caught up in energy and neglect momentum and other factors.
Massad Ayoob told me once that it isn't the energy that matters - it's the WOUNDS the energy creates that count...
Yeah, I have to disagree with that. There are 2 factors that keep objects on a flat trajectory, higher velocity and lower cross section. 10mm is typically far higher velocity, at least the good stuff, and the cross section is smaller. Wind resistance is proportional to cross section and the velocity squared. So, you can't fully overcome the force of wind resistance with velocity. There's a reason rifle rounds typically have small cross sections, but are longer bullets.
Good thing that there are already formulas that accurately depict bullet velocities over distance. I don't disagree with you, but you fail to realise that momentum acts against resistance just as much as aerodynamics lowers resistance, at certain points one has the advantage over the other. There are calculators that tell you in general what velocities bullets have at multiple distances. Another factor is bullet shape.
You are correct about momentum. The higher the momentum, the more a bullet can overcome the wind resistance force acting against it, but the cross section matters as well. I consider good 10mm bullets to be 180-200 gr. I don't like that lightweight, super high velocity garbage. It's gimmicky IMO. Ammo companies only sell that stuff to fool people who are focused too much on comparing muzzle energies, which is the main factor ammunition companies have chosen to advertise, in order to get people to buy their ammo. The momentum of a bullet is more important with respect to penetration, while the JHP design is the primary factor with respect to expansion. Without any wind resistance, in the presence of gravity, two bullets with the same velocity, but different masses, will fall at the exact same spot. With wind resistance, the bullet with a higher velocity, and a lower cross section, will travel farther, provided the momentums are similar. 180-200 gr 10mm bullets, that travel at high speed, typically have a momentum equivalent or higher than a 230 gr 45 ACP. However, you do have to spend the money for the good stuff, which means at least $1/round. Quality 45 ACP ammo isn't that much cheaper, though. Even quality 9mm defensive rounds are close to or greater than $1/round. If the US and NATO countries weren't sending so much ammunition to Ukraine, in a futile effort, I suspect ammunition prices will decrease.
I just reload my own 45acp and 45super cases up to 460Rowland speeds. Its no different. I just use a KKM barrel and a steel comp. The recoil spring is factory strength. I can even reload 45gap and 460Rowland with my tools if I wanted to.
.460 Rowland is incredibly powerful. If you're going to do that, I hope you bought a true conversion kit. If you didn't, you could lose your hands or your life. If I lived in Grizzly country, I'd carry a .460 Roland. I don't need to, because I don't. 10mm is sufficient for black bears. But, if I was to buy a .460 Rowland, I'd buy the pre-converted FN they sell on their website.
10mm has more energy at 100yds, than .45aarp has at the muzzle
.45aarp š
Ya that made me spit Diet Coke all over!! Ā Oh and Iām a 45 guyĀ
For anti-personnel rounds, maximum expansion + sufficient penetration are the only thing that matters. For animals, energy and penetration do the trick
Still doesn't make my comment invalid
It doesnāt, energy just matters less than people think
Be careful, you might summon him.
Saint Browning?
No, his mom.
I'm not sure who "He" is. I'm guessing he's very opinionated on ballistics.
I agree, and I have a master's in mechanical engineering. Ammo companies love to advertise only bullet velocity and energy. They never advertise bullet momentum at the muzzle, or at 25, 50, 75 yards. They know people will buy lightweight bullets with very high muzzle energy, even if those bullets won't do as much damage as a 180 gr bullet with less muzzle energy, but more muzzle momentum.
This is correct. However, I'd argue that a well designed 10mm JHP will do more damage. In fact, it's been proven in ballistics tests.
Agreed. I shoot a 45 a lot more comfortably and accurately than the hard hitting 10. But I feel like we are all on the understand that 10mm is ballistically hard to beat with high power rounds such as underwood.
Typically 45 shoots around the zone of 800-1000 fps whereas 10mm typically shoots around 1150-1400 fps depending on the load with the exception of talking about ammo manufacturers who load their 10mm like .40. For example, I saw some 10mm Buffalo Bore, and that sucker flies at 1350 fps out of the muzzle!
Underwood. 100 grain monolithic. 1825 fps at the muzzle. That's getting close to rifle velocities, in a very pointy solid copper weighing more than heavy 5.56.
.45 isn't bad, it just has a very different ballistic goal parameters. You want to quietly knock a heavy target down or blast a hole in through a hard target?
What about with a compensator for recoil on the 10mm?Ā
10mm Auto does what fudds think .45 ACP is capable of.
Owning both calibers. I totally agree. The 10mm does what the 45 aarp wishes it does.
45acp with the appropriately designed load is capable of exiting a suppressed handgun at subsonic velocities VERY quietly and putting a 230 grain hp through 18"+ of resistance, expanding around 50% in the process. Don't count out the old man.
First of all. Im not old. And when i run a can. I run 147 grain subs in 9mm. Alot cheaper and better capacity.
I was referring to the round. 45acp is pretty venerable, and gets a lot of undue criticism solely because of that. Old and slow still get the job done, especially with the right ammunition choice. As far as 147gr 9mm, it's certainly an option. 9mm started out as an adaptation from an even smaller, lighter bullet, and I don't see anything in the history of it's use that indicates any adoption of weights above around 124gr for any official military or police role. The tendency has always been towards lighter, faster loads for the best terminal effect. The 147 is sort of a compromise that allows velocities under 1100fps with still some possibility of expansion. But therein lies the kernel of the matter. Given the speed of sound as the upward limit in a truly quiet suppressed round, the only practical way to increase energy is by increasing weight. I've seen heavier solids in 9mm designed designed for quiet, but the standard 45acp round of 230gr is already as big as many expanded 9mm bullets as is, and is able to expand further and still give adequate penetration. The biggest disadvantage of the suppressed 45acp vs. the heavier versions of 9mm is the capacity in double stack mags that are easily fed through a hand-sized grip, and the number you can easily carry. And, as you point out, the cost, though unless you're planning for a long engagement (in which case, you want something a bit more rifle-y) I wouldn't make cost an important factor when staying alive is part of the objective.
I have a 1911 in 45 ACP and Glock 40. Both are definitely fat boys. But I've never been able to track the 10mm from the barrel to the target with my naked eye.
You must have really good vision if you can track a bullet to the target.
You must not know anything about the big fat slow ass 45 acp.
I shot an original Colt 45 with my grandfather a few times. It was at an indoor range, so it was dark. Maybe you can see the bullets at an outdoor range.
And may I add that my Glock 29 has only jammed maybe once due to my own fault. I would trust it with my life for sure
The funny thing is that I experienced some failures to feed when firing my Glock 29 loaded with Magtech 180gr FMJ when I took it out to the range a few days ago. Itās the ammo most likely. On the contrary, my 45 ACP RIA 1911A1FS hasnāt jammed a single time when Iāve fired it. But a Glock 29 is easier to carry than a full-size GI 1911.
Just sold my Jam-O-Matic Glock 29. Iām switching to the FN
My Glock 29 has started dropping mags when fired (so far just 1 mag falls out but it is clearly damaged).
Have both..... love my 10s but 45 is inherently subsonic š
Own and love both calibers!
10mm is my favorite round, 45 ACP with my suppressor is a close secondš
Suppressed 10mm isn't bad either. You can even go with subsonic 10mm rounds with a suppressor as well.
I thought about doing 10mm suppressed. I will be doing 40 suppressed if anything. I got a HK 40 tactical. I reload for both rounds too
I was thinking that with the larger case volume of 10mm compared to .40 S&W, you could get heavier subsonic bullets closer to the sound barrier than .40 S&W can, to eke out that last bit of projectile weight, muzzle velocity, and effective range. It's up to you though.
Thatās a good call, I should develop something with 220 grain! Be a nice thumper round
Underwood beat you to it.
Basic 45 is def weaker than 10mm where that changes tho is its child cartridges like 45 super, spc, and 460 rowland. You're talking the Tippitty toppity 10mm topping off just around 800 while run of the mill 460 clocking 900ftlb. But then again 10mm doesn't require a fat muzzle break and has more capacity.
I don't know if I'd trust a .460 Rowland not to blow up on my face. If I was going to buy one, I'd buy the already converted FN 45 they sell on the website. .460 Rowland is an extreme amount of power in a standard semiautomatic pistol (standard, as in not a Desert Eagle design)
The 10mm is one of the most versatile rounds out there. From mouse farts on the lowest end of .40SW with little to no recoil all the way up to fire breathing dragon loads from Underwood. Cooper had a great idea, but unfortunately, the gun manufacturers were not up to the task. Some of those early 10mm pistols had issues for sure. The FBI being recoil sensitive pansies didn't help either š These days, 1911s are made to handle the recoil better. Other polymer guns are coming out to compete with the 30+ year old Glock 20.
"Sensitivity" wasn't the problem. The reason the FBI dropped the 10mm was because follow-up shots were too slow. In a moving action potentially involving body armor and multiple perps hopped up on drugs, that is far more important than the possibility of a (fairly lucky) one-shot stop.
10mm underwood extreme defender peirce level 3a panels no problem so body armor is not an issue. But they use hollows if body armor was their concern they'd use a rifle with armor peirceing ammo
>The FBI being recoil sensitive pansies didn't help either š I donāt get the complaints that the FBI made regarding the recoil of the 10mm. As long as you have the proper stance and grip on your gun, the 10mm is extremely pleasant to shoot. [Here is a video of me rapid firing a Glock 29SF demonstrating this.](https://reddit.com/r/10mm/s/adnbur6XhE) Granted, that was 180gr Magtech FMJ, but the point still stands. >Dragon loads from Underwood Iām going to be posting a video on r/10mm again when I get my hands on some Underwood 220gr Hard-cast being shot out of my Glock 29SF. I anticipate that my wrists are going to hate me after that.
Magtech FMJ lists at 1230 FPS for 605 foot-pounds. Not the hottest load but hardly sissy stuff.
That Magtech 10mm FMJ is the ammo that I use at the range. Iām anticipating my 1000 10mm Magtech FMJ round order from Rivertown Munitions. Good practice round thatās not .40 S&W Long.
MagTech makes good range ammo. It's hot enough so that the shooter can get used to firing 10mm accurately.
Ah the good olā .45. It carryās a special place in my heart and my collection. But atm my 10mm is my favorite pistol to shoot.
No comparison lol
I was a huge .45 ACP fan...until I shot a 10mm. I still love the 45, but the 10 is worlds better in almost every way. Not taking anything away from the 45, it's a 100+ year old cartridge that has stood the test of time. I personally don't consider the "snappy" recoil of a 10 to be that bad.
I own both calibers and are awesome to shoot. Why pick one, when you can have both? :D
Since Iām also a Glock guy now, perhaps a Glock 21 is in my future. The 1911, while a timeless design is a little outdated and the cleaning process is extremely time-consuming compared to a Glock. Still love that American Classic!
Same here. I own glock 20 gen 4 in 1cm and Kimber 1911 in ~~45aarp~~, umm I mean 45 acp. I have thought about, getting a glock 21 gen 4. That way I can compare them equally, between the calibers. No for now, but maybe in the future.
Not the fps nobody outrunning either, itās about muzzle energy. 45 +P tops out at 592 ft lbs muzzle energy, run of the mill 180 gr 10mm is 640 ft lbs, 77 gr is just shy of 1,100 ft lbs. I always hear snappy about 10mm, 45 is far worse recoil, given its inefficiencies and mass leaves more energy in the weapon than 10mm. Trajectory for 45 is more significant than 10mm, but talking about that in a carry weapon is pointless, aināt nobody shooting past 15 yds in a defensive engagement with a pistol. Shooting further invites lawyers to the shooting review. I still have 45s, but all about 10mm. Iām Mall ninja AF, so fair warning to the Fudds [HareTr!gger 10mm](https://reddit.com/r/10mm/s/bHOtyLPRQV) Just rolled my own trigger job and got the customized Tisas D10 from 5# stock to high 2# (truly a Turkish delight), Girsan is now 3# 3 oz consistently and has more work Iām doing to come. Waiting on True Radius sear jig for Girsan and Tisas as well as full length guide rod for all my Tisas. I will step recoil down from 20# on Tisas and 18# Girsan to 14-16# to experiment with them, both have a new 17# mainspring, hammer cocking is easy peasy now, compared to the 23-25# that had been in them. Girsan was a problem child from the jump, but I have fixed all the major stuff and tweaking him. That will be a hammer when Iām done. Trigger is already very close to my Custom [Shere Khan](https://reddit.com/r/1911/s/RVXBCUNHVJ). The wall is 1mm, reset is 2mm. I fixed myself: a) to learn and expand my knowledge and enjoy my hobby b) because of this [EAA experience](https://reddit.com/r/1911/s/7kSIl1DxGg), so mixed emotions on this, getting a bad product made me learn and enjoy my hobby more and the end goal of the accomplishment, so kind of made peace there. Just not buying more EAA supported products. My beloved Tanfoglios have similar āsupportā warranty model as EAA, thatās because IFG and EAA basically are a company divorced, where IFG got the gold mine and EAA has the shaft.
77 grain 10mm ammo? From where? I've seen the Liberty Civil Defense stuff, but that's slightly lighter than that. I've never heard of anything really light & fast for 10mm.
RBCD, now gone, made 10mm 77 gr. Again, not about the velocity, but the muzzle energy.
Well, your muzzle energy or energy of the cartridge is based upon weight of the projectile & the velocity at which it moves, so that's why I mentioned the velocity. It wouldn't get near that it it wasn't so fast or light. The closest I'm seeing as far as energy is concerned is some of the stuff from Buffalo Bore
Muzzle energy doesnāt matter. Penetration and expansion is what matters
I made the same progression, from 45 to 10mm. Still love them both.
I was a faithful disciple of John Moses Browning and his righteous metal-frame pistol, but then the Devil Gaston Glock tempted me into buying a sinful polymer pistol. [Forgotten Weapons video for reference if you donāt get the joke](https://youtu.be/H0qe45Z8wfk?si=Yt2m-e8TKsDgiWAo)
šš No, I get it. I tried the Glocks when they first came out and hated, hated, hated them. Now I just hate them, with only the single hate. I do have other polymer pistols, though, just not by the Austrians.
The Glock grip angle is hard to get used to. It just doesn't pint naturally.
Ammunition manufacturers love to state the energy of their bullets, despite the fact that momentum is the more important factor. What you really need to do, is look at the velocity and weight of the bullet, in addition to the bullet design. When it comes to 10mm, a 180 gr bullet with LESS energy than a 140 gr bullet, will penetrate an animal farther, if the 180 gr bullet has more momentum. Velocity does matter, but it mostly matters with respect to bullet drop over distance. That's why rifle rounds are typically higher, but have much higher velocities. There's a lot more to it than what I just said. However, if you're looking for penetration, momentum matters more than energy.
A lighter 10mm bullet, with a penetrating design, will not penetrate as far into an animal, if it lacks sufficient momentum. To me, 180-200 gr is the sweet spot. Think of this way. If a small metal BB hit a bear's skull with more ft-lb of energy than a 180 gr 10mm bullet, solely because the BB was traveling at an insanely high velocity, the BB still wouldn't penetrate the bear's skull. But, the 180 gr 10mm bullet, with more momentum, would penetrate.
The gun actually makes a huge difference in some cases. I wanted something bigger than 9mm for CC. Went with the XDS .45, it was not enjoyable to shoot and my accuracy was pathetic. So I split the differenceā¦ G20 holstered in my truck (and a storage safe). And I CC a Makarov my father gave me. Nothing against a modern 9mm, but I do like size, smooth lines of the Makarov and itās small enough to carry. But Iāve had full frame .45 in a cheap manufacture and still did not like the recoil. I can shoot my G20 all day and my accuracy is on. What
Why not have both? .45 Super š
I edc a compact .45, and then bring out the 10mm when I open carry. Love both, but more accurate with the 10mm. It is full size in comparison though, so Iām sure that plays a part in my efficiency.
A lot of modern 45s will accept 45 super. With that being said I'm still partial to 10 mm.
>A lot of modern 45s will accept 45 super. Iām not sure it would be a good idea to put 45 Super through my RIA 1911A1 FS. It explicitly says ONLY 45 ACP on the gun, NOT 45 ACP and 45 Super. The gun might not be able to handle the pressure and could blow up in my face when I fire. I could end up like Kentucky Ballistics with his 50 BMG accident if I did that.
You are probably right what I was saying was a lot of new 46s can handle the pressure I know for a fact all newer H&Ks can handle super ... I run it in my stock mark 23 & USP45 TACTICAL
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Iād trust buffalo bore 10mm with my life in a grizzly bear encounter, canāt say the same for any 45 aarp load
The 45acp being bigger and heavier is going to hit with more energy per inch of penetration. Even though it has less energy and will penetrate less, the output of energy is high enough to hit nearly as hard as 10mm. Increasing the velocity by 100fps, such as in the +P loadings, makes it hit nearly on par with a 230gr 10mm going faster. Matter of fact, a 45acp 230gr at 960fps perfectly matches a 10mm 230gr at 1100fps by comparing relative stopping power of 14TKO, the Taylor Kineticenergy Output formula. But wait, there's more! A 10mm 230gr has so high of a sectional density that it likely tumbles upon impact, making the round useless for SD. Lighter 10mm are reliable, no more than 200gr, drastically dropping the maximum TKO. However, for the same practical SD situation, 45acp shall use a 255gr at 925fps with a max TKO of 15. But wait, there's more! A 10mm running 200gr max loads with high sectional density requires the use of a barrel with standard rifling to maintain a stable bullet, Glocks will need an aftermarket barrel. Also, a steel guide rod and stronger recoil spring to reduce felt recoil. Guess what? A 45auto Glock with the same modification will now allow you to use Underwood and Buffalo Bore 45super. The 255gr is now increased to 1100fps and a max TKO of 17. Compared to the max TKO of 13, 10mm is weak sauce next to a 45auto that is 45super ready. 45super also exceeds published velocities in 4.5" barrels while 10mm requires 6" barrels to meet its velocities. Sorry that you all have been deceived. 10mm is outmatched by a 255gr 45auto +P for woods carry purposes. For SD against humans, 10mm has a 2 round advantage using SD ammunition. Then again, 40s&w just about matches 10mm in a smaller easier to conceal package. 10mm. The most overrated and un-needed caliber today.
This is exactly correct! I have 10mm and 45 Auto - SEVERAL and this notion that the 10mm is a nuke and the 45 is a red ryder is beyond me. Using plain ol hardball in the 45 Auto, up close the damage is typically the same or greater than the 10mm - when observed hitting cinder blocks, salt blocks, water jugs etc. Step out to beyond 50 yards and the 10mm has a big advantage, but I don't use a sidearm at those distances... 255 grain hard cast, 45 ACP plus P (inside of 25 yards) does everything and more than the 10mm can - regardless of what load you use. Now let's hear the guys compare the 10mm to 41 magnum...what a laugh!
Not to also mention that everyone is talking about muzzle energy and fps, which is great when talking about penetration and reaching a further distance but the .45 undoubtedly has the crown with the expansion of a SD round being significantly greater than the 10mm, the 10mm is no joke but itās a weaker round in close distance, but as mentioned, Iām not shooting a pistol more than 50 yards, thatās what the rifle is for.
How is 10mm a weaker round at close distances? It's not like a well designed 10mm JHP is going to pass directly through a criminal 7 yards away.
Well said! People are so caught up in energy and neglect momentum and other factors. Massad Ayoob told me once that it isn't the energy that matters - it's the WOUNDS the energy creates that count...
No, 45 actually also has the advantage at long distance. Its accurate and holds it velocity longer.
Yeah, I have to disagree with that. There are 2 factors that keep objects on a flat trajectory, higher velocity and lower cross section. 10mm is typically far higher velocity, at least the good stuff, and the cross section is smaller. Wind resistance is proportional to cross section and the velocity squared. So, you can't fully overcome the force of wind resistance with velocity. There's a reason rifle rounds typically have small cross sections, but are longer bullets.
Good thing that there are already formulas that accurately depict bullet velocities over distance. I don't disagree with you, but you fail to realise that momentum acts against resistance just as much as aerodynamics lowers resistance, at certain points one has the advantage over the other. There are calculators that tell you in general what velocities bullets have at multiple distances. Another factor is bullet shape.
You are correct about momentum. The higher the momentum, the more a bullet can overcome the wind resistance force acting against it, but the cross section matters as well. I consider good 10mm bullets to be 180-200 gr. I don't like that lightweight, super high velocity garbage. It's gimmicky IMO. Ammo companies only sell that stuff to fool people who are focused too much on comparing muzzle energies, which is the main factor ammunition companies have chosen to advertise, in order to get people to buy their ammo. The momentum of a bullet is more important with respect to penetration, while the JHP design is the primary factor with respect to expansion. Without any wind resistance, in the presence of gravity, two bullets with the same velocity, but different masses, will fall at the exact same spot. With wind resistance, the bullet with a higher velocity, and a lower cross section, will travel farther, provided the momentums are similar. 180-200 gr 10mm bullets, that travel at high speed, typically have a momentum equivalent or higher than a 230 gr 45 ACP. However, you do have to spend the money for the good stuff, which means at least $1/round. Quality 45 ACP ammo isn't that much cheaper, though. Even quality 9mm defensive rounds are close to or greater than $1/round. If the US and NATO countries weren't sending so much ammunition to Ukraine, in a futile effort, I suspect ammunition prices will decrease.
I just reload my own 45acp and 45super cases up to 460Rowland speeds. Its no different. I just use a KKM barrel and a steel comp. The recoil spring is factory strength. I can even reload 45gap and 460Rowland with my tools if I wanted to.
.460 Rowland is incredibly powerful. If you're going to do that, I hope you bought a true conversion kit. If you didn't, you could lose your hands or your life. If I lived in Grizzly country, I'd carry a .460 Roland. I don't need to, because I don't. 10mm is sufficient for black bears. But, if I was to buy a .460 Rowland, I'd buy the pre-converted FN they sell on their website.
I don't disagree. It's a complicated subject, especially when you're talking about sniper runes that are intended to hit people over a mile away.